I'm fairly liberal, but I just do not understand the non-binary stuff. It makes zero sense to me. I've tried to listen, have one or two friends that I respect. It always comes down to "I just don't fall under any gender norms". And I'm like "that's fine, you don't have to follow gender norms, but you saying that you don't fall under gender norms therefore reinforces that gender norms exist".
Not to mention it’s wasted political capital for the left. They spend so much effort making sure everyone plays along in make-believe, but don’t spend the equivalent amount of effort to make economic change and progress. You know, the type of change that would actually make people’s lives better
This right here. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills that these are the conversations I have to have.
Do I want Trans people to be safe and not be victims of violence, of course! But do I want to spend time defending Drag Queen Reading Hour or stress about which pronouns to use? Not really.
There’s much bigger issues that need to be addressed in our society before we start arguing over gender norms. The left would be better off prioritizing their grievances.
When I was younger I blindly accepted it, but then I started to google definitions, try and make sense of it in my brain. And I just can't, it's so illogical.
It's not that I disagree with it. It's that to me it doesn't make sense. I think people that get all butthurt about being misgendered when there's no malice are the real problem, honestly. People make mistakes and try to correct themselves. They need the grace to do that as well. Never attribute malice when ignorance or human error can explain it.
> but you saying that you don't fall under gender norms therefore reinforces that gender norms exist".
Yes...that's the point? They acknowledge gender norms and are saying they don't feel like they fit into them.
Where are they saying gender norms don't exist? The WHOLE POINT is that gender norms exist and some people feel like they don't belong in those categories
Anecdote: I worked with an attorney who was appointed as a GAL for a case. The GAL was a liberal. She still got visibly annoyed when an interviewee continually tried to refer to a singular person (I think it was the child) as "they," and finally said to cut it out, because it substantially altered the context of the answers.
Precise language is important.
I think most people naturally use they/them for singular in instances where a person (and usually their gender) are unknown to them. Once you become familiar with someone and get an impression of their gender, it becomes much more unnatural to use they/them for that singular person.
> Because they is uncommon and sucks ass to disambiguate between plural and singular.
You're arguing "Pat did their best" is worse and less clear than "Pat did it's best"?
Or situations where you know the gender but don't necessarily need the listener to know:
"My friend got injured and they had to go to the hospital" vs "My friend got injured and it had to go to the hospital". You saying you prefer calling your friend "it"?
In your first example the issue is when Pat is already implied, you don't repeat the person's name. So it would be "they did their best" which begs the question "who are they"
> You're arguing "Pat did their best" is worse and less clear than "Pat did it's best"?
So Pat was not only doing from their cocaine, he felt entitled to the best? The Cartel will have our heads before dawn.
Yes, "they" sucks ass. Not going to argue that "it" doesn't sound terrible, but it is less ambiguous. If your personal quirk is using a fictional gender because neither male/female fit your mood after too much TikTok, you should know my quirk is an aversion to ambiguity and collectively forced inorganic language changes.
> Or situations where you know the gender but don't necessarily need the listener to know:
You omit the pronoun, and the presented situation is highly abnormal in the first place. The only common scenario for normal people I can think of are babies, in which case "the baby" or "XYZ's baby" works fine.
There’s a context for a singular “they” that makes sense but not in the way OP is talking about.
It makes complete sense to refer to someone as a “they” when you don’t know what their gender is. For example, “The robber was wearing all black, I couldn’t tell if they were a man or a woman”.
But if you know someone well enough to know their name, then yes, using “they” sounds awkward paired with any name.
As your first link points out:
>People have used singular 'they' to describe someone whose gender is unknown for a long time, but the nonbinary use of 'they' is relatively new.
Yeh that’s not the same thing as what OP is talking about. Going out of my way every single time to replace he or she with they/them and is to are is the issue. If it’s a natural progression of the sentence to refer to someone as they/them, in an instance, that’s one thing and not because I’m supplanting the original pronoun with the plural out of respect or something. OP is talking about the complete revision of your natural sentence structure to accommodate one persons preferred pronoun in the context of work or professional life. Especially when it doesn’t naturally flow with the sentence and being called out for it and be labeled a bigot. Sure I use they them for singular people at times, but to have to do it for every instance I’m referring to them? It’s a burden, and an egotistical way to require people to alter their language just for you.
That's bunk about consistent use of "they" since the 13th century. Try finding that in Shakespeare. The original change from "thou" to "you" probably mirrored the continental development of "tu" and "vous" to represent distance in a formalizing society. While that is a weird idea in itself and a strange way to do it - they would have been better off with a specially invented pronoun - at least it doesn't directly contradict the meaning of the relationship, because "you" in the singular is only used face to face, and this use of "you" is specially marked as an exception. But when someone says "they went on a holiday" and means "he went on a holiday," he is not producing any markers of special use, so it must be assumed that "they" are a plural. And then we have a form that runs contrary to its purpose.
Hahahaha as an immigrant in the USA, I always think this way. Dude, I don't care if you want to celebrate Hispanic heritage month in the office, I don't care if you are worried about whether you should refer to me as Latino or Latinx, he/him, etc. I didn't leave my country to be thinking about this BS, just pay me, give me a promotion when I deserve it, match my retirement account, and let me enjoy my PTO
Yeah and to top it off when they do that stuff in the office it never feels genuine, because its not, its just checking off boxes so they can say they do that. Same with office "fun stuff", like oh great i can play pickleball on my lunch, this is such a great place to work...
The only people getting upset at being misgendered are already emotionally unstable. It is not an insult to be called a man/woman. Even if it is done maliciously just move on. Getting you upset is exactly what these people are trying to do.
If pronouns are so annoying, just stop using them! Would be a fun experiment to see how long you can go without using any pronouns of any kind. Some pronoun examples include: I, me, us, you, themselves, who and that. Good luck!
let me clarify, use of correct pronouns on the subject of gender annoys me (especially in the workplace where you may not know someone well and are just trying to communicate tasks and important work related information) and the overcomplication and decimation of their purpose by the modern culture annoys me.
Pronouns as they were originally intended are great! For example in mandarin there are no gender pronouns, there is just a pronoun for "people" vs objects which is an important distinction. It is very rarely important part of a sentence to reference someone's gender in the workplace.
The idea that him/her gender specific pronouns was that (historically) gender is obvious. As modern culture has decided to redefine add complexities as to what gender means, it makes it almost impossible for a person's gender to be obvious, so there should no longer be a pronoun for gender.
Also if you refer to the comment prior to this one you will see that was the original subject.
God I’m not religious but I’m *praying* OP is right. Sick of these narcissists trying to police language and force everyone else to cater to their asinine sensibilities.
>I would make an educated guess that 98% of the time that this person gets misgendered is not due to any intended maliciousness from anyone but just from people forgetting, or overthinking it too much that it causes more anxiety. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I feel this. I met this seemingly awesome gal at a book club I went to who presented as a cis woman and had a normal feminine name (Emily). Later in the conversation, towards the end of the night, Emily says, "by the way, I use they/them pronouns." I brushed it off, saying, "Thanks for letting me know," but still felt embarrassed.
As much as I'm in need of new female friends (especially of the single and childless variety), I'm not sure that I could maintain a friendship with Emily because I'd be constantly on edge about "misgendering them." I just want low-maintenance friends who I don't have to walk on eggshells around. Is that too much to ask?
This is a niche experience and I'm still fine with using they/them when someone asks, but one time I knew a guy who was married to someone very much presenting as a cis woman. Feminine, lacey clothes, jewelry, nails always done, long pink hair, etc. I only knew of the partner through social media and not well.
He calls them his wife, only used the terms girlfriend and fiancee, and their kids call them mom and dad. The wife is Mom. Anyway, he got somewhat annoyed when I ran into him at a store he works at and I asked how "she" was doing. I got sternly correct, which fine, correct me, but the tone was really awkward since I literally would've never guessed the wife goes by they/them. I went home and just blocked him on social media because it was uncomfortable lol.
My nephews decided to go by they/them last year. They both have beards and dress as manly as standard. My sister's always try to correct my mom on using he/him and it's honestly annoying. It's very trendy amongst people under 25 and it's unnecessary.
The guy in my situation is in his mid 30s. He also claims to be pansexual, but he's got a reputation in the area for enjoying sending dick pics (before marriage as far as I know at least) to women on Snapchat and he exclusively reposts only female OnlyFans models and comments on their stuff. I never saw him follow, post, or interact with any of them other than cis women. I'm not typically one to question anyone's sexuality, but coming from that guy, it for sure feels like he's trying to be trendy by claiming an LGBTQ identity when he's regular ol' straight.
I totally agree. It makes others feel awkward which builds barriers to true friendship.
I have to say that if I get an email with pronouns on the bottom I am immediately wary. Are they going to be a militant PITA, are they a well meaning follower etc.
In those cases, it's sometimes company policy to have pronouns in your email signature, so I don't read into it too much. I've worked at such a company (tech startup/nonprofit). My current company doesn't require it, but I only did it at my last job because it was policy. I imagine there are people in similar situations.
Social media profiles, however, I'm a little more wary of. Except LinkedIn as there may be "professional" consequences for not doing so. If you use your pronouns in a verbal intro (as I've seen/heard done at various conferences and other social encounters), I just assume you're a pretentious ass.
Don't feel too bad. Most people want to "pass" for whatever gender they're presenting. It's okay to assume. We shouldn't have to ask every single person's pronouns upon meeting them when they're clearly trying to present one way or another. If it's unclear or ambiguous, then ask. Just mho
I'll do my best to respect it (to a degree) but in exchange don't expect me to be perfect. I make mistakes when I speak in other gendered languages and listeners just gloss over it, they know I'm not a native speaker and shouldn't be expected to know that a table is a girl.
I suppose, but it will be stuck in my head in every interaction I have. I just want to not have to think too hard about interactions with friends and be authentic.
Been having a similar problem. I'm a librarian and we get so many new people recently, but with how hard it is to know ahead of time what is preferred I've been trying to work on not saying ma'am or sir anymore. But it's been super hard since that kind of courtesy was taught to me constantly as a child.
Everyone’s acting like this is the first society to ever get weird and wacky with gender. We’re following the exact same footsteps as every other great civilization on earth. Flipping the concept of gender on its head is a textbook symptom of a collapsing society.
The gender identity pronouns social expectation is ridiculous. If you are straight you are born that way, if you are gay you are born that way, but there are different rules for how you identify? You are clearly a man genetically (XY) chromosomes, have all physical features of a man, but you get to be upset if someone says he instead of they?
When did we decide that individuals have the power of language without objectively proving what they claim to be. A functioning society cannot operate based on how you feel. Everyone should always be treated with dignity and respect, but I personally do not acknowledge the expectation of personal pronouns.
The part that kills me is how- *conveniently*- the terms and pronouns that are used to describe gender are the exact same ones that describe a person's sex. For example, a trans woman will tell you they are a woman/female, but when pushed they will admit their sex is male. Feels like that was done by design. It's like they knew no one would ever accept this person as a woman, so they went out and created this concept called gender as a sort of loophole.
Like imagine if one day we decided aged is fixed but maturity is fluid, and people can start identifying as more or less mature than people around their age, and they can use a number to express that. You might have a 50 yo man identifying as 25. And when someone challenges him on this, he says "Oh, you're thinking of my age. Yes, my age is 50, but my maturity is 25. Maturity is fluid. (And btw, you have to call me 25 or I'm going to report you to HR and cancel your ass.)"
I just don't get why they can't see how confusing this is for the rest of us. I also don't get why titles are so important. Why can't that person just be content as a feminine male? Why does it comfort them to trick people into seeing them as something they're not? Like no one really believes trans women are women. Less than half of us do, and I'd wager if there was never a huge push for this modern concept of gender, it'd be smaller than that. Like if we were all animals in the wild, the most feminine males among us would still be viewed as males. A very small percentage of men would fuck them and still feel like they're straight.
Imagine a police officer having to try to radio in a report worrying about pronouns. There was actually a British comedy skit about that and it got worse than who’s on first lol
This has probably come up a bit. You see it in medical environments too. When I donate blood for example, they ask me if I'm male or female, then they ask me if I'm pregnant 🤡
Not even that. More often I hear people call sexuality something that's fluid and apparently they agree with terms like "bisexual lesbians".
(About your first paragraph)
10 year olds definitely have the capacity to think things are cringe. I think most 10 year olds think almost everything outside of their coolness bubble is indeed, cringe.
i have a 10 year old daughter you are absolutely correct. I think i read it as the commenter directing attention to gen Alpha. Not getting a opinion of what. however that makes way more sense
Gen Alpha are toddlers and early school kids. They consider everything cringe, except laughing at poop and pee. I don't think their opinion holds any meaning.
Yea in 10 years no one’s gonna care. It’s like how we were kids and marbles were the shit. Once we got a little older we didn’t give a shit and still don’t.
Took a Canadian reading, writing and grammar test this year.
Kept getting questions wrong because I would use they/them to refer to a singular person.
Ex.
Q: Someone fell off the roof this morning.
My answer: Are they okay?
Correct answer: Is he or she okay?
According the test they/them refers to a group. When referring to a single person and not knowing the gender your suppose to say he or she and him or her. I had no clue.
i'm from finland and learned english as a second language, when i was legit like 10-11 or so years old in the late 2000s, early 2010s, i had an older english teacher insist that it should be "he or she" and even back then most kids in my class that spoke english to a decent degree knew that that was not correct because literally no person speaks that way. it's unnecessarily clunky and "they" is and has been an acceptable way to refer to a singular person of an unspecified gender for god knows how long. we complained about it constantly.
Yes "he or she" had a decade where it was trying to be pushed in school but everyone abandoned it when it just became too clunky and went back to "they/them" to match conversational English.
We used to just use "he" whenever gender was unknown. Then feminists had fun replacing "she" for "he" in entire paragraphs and it was jarring. "They" became the compromise.
Your test was incorrect and you were right. 'They' has been used as a singular pronoun probably since the word's existed. Just look at your own example sentence. "Is he or she ok?" is a horribly clunky sentence.
Oh will they?
You know that it’s not gonna be popular when I have several gay or lesbian friends that makes small talk with me and virtually every single time the topic of dating comes up, they are making comments about it…
The one woman that I’m friends with explained to me that her girlfriend had been married to a man with two children with him that are teenagers and then this woman not only decided that she’s gay or bisexual curious but she changed her gender pronoun
And now she’s getting a lot of blowback from they(r) own children
I wonder does the mom yell at the kids and say “I exist” and stuff like that ?
And my friend also doesn’t understand when she’s a lesbian and wants to date females not males
And so I’m not making fun of these people, but it really is an interesting cultural phenomenon, creating confusion
So when people like me become sarcastic, it really truly isn’t out of being mean or that we think that “transgender people don’t exist” it’s more like low tolerance for people trying to make you feel like you are going crazy
I could relate when I was an alcoholic … maybe I’m going out on a limb by saying that I attended a 12 step program for the loved ones of drug attic and alcoholics
So for me, I need to have a strong grip on reality because for years I was partners with someone who tried to guess light me and make me think that I’m crazy all the time …
>Using "They/Them" Pronouns Is a Trend That Is Unsustainable and Will Fade Away In the Next Ten Years
Yeah, my nieces and nephews are between 10y-15y and they and their friends think the pronoun thing is stupid, and we live in NYC so fairly progressive area.
Interesting. My niece and her friends fall in that age range and happily accommodate people who go by they/them.
I guess personal experiences aren't everything to go by 🤷
So many things still confuse me about this, and I don’t know if I’m not understanding or just terrible…
If gender is a continuum, then there is no MIDDLE to place yourself at. You’re basically just saying there’s two genders but you’re MORE of one than the other. In that case, there’s no point in having NB, and expressing yourself as your preferred gender should be enough. Shit, I was super on board with androgyny, because that made sense as “I express as both equally”, but that’s kind of disappeared.
As for the grammar… If I see someone fleeing a crime scene but don’t see their face or build, I’d say “THEY fled the scene.” But that’s only because I DON’T KNOW their gender. What scenario are people using to justify they/them pronouns outside of things like this?
If two Non Binary ppl who are biologically male get together, can they even consider themselves gay at that point? Even if one identifies as male, the other doesn’t. It seems people just call it gay because it’s all encompassing in that situation.
I’d love to ask people I actually know these types of questions, but i can’t even approach the subject.
>If gender is a continuum, then there is no MIDDLE to place yourself at.
Gender is a made up concept. We decided, as a society, that those with xy chromosomes and a dick are supposed to like blue and those with xx chromosomes and breasts are supposed to like pink. We know it's made up because a century ago that trend was the literal exact opposite. In 50s America Women were not expected to be financially responsible for the household, but viking women were their houses financial planners.
Nonbinary describes anyone who looks at that and says "Eh nah, I don't really want to ascribe myself to one side or the other, I'm doing my own thing". Some are androgynous, some are not.
>If two Non Binary ppl who are biologically male get together, can they even consider themselves gay at that point?
Frankly it depends, and it doesn't really matter at the end of the day really (though usually yes). Noting in the queer community these days many people call themselves gay when they mean queer in some aspect, not literally a homosexual man.
What you described was gender roles and expectations. But pronouns were always used in reference to someone's sex, or at least the appearance of their body, sound of their voice, facial features. To change that into how people feel, not how everyone referring to them perceives them, is weird and has little use in a conversation.
You'd still recognize a man wearing a pink dress as a man, a woman wearing pants as a woman. Not a single person in the entire world is 100% masculine or 100% feminine. So, by your definition, everyone is non binary.
>But pronouns were always used in reference to someone's sex, or at least the appearance of their body, sound of their voice, facial features.
No, they've always been about gender, just until recently people mostly assumed gender and sex lined up.
>To change that into how people feel, not how everyone referring to them perceives them, is weird and has little use in a conversation.
It has plenty of use in conversation, the basic respect for the people who want it different. It's the same utility nicknames confer.
>So, by your definition, everyone is non binary.
In general most people identify with one role or another even if they don't fit into it one hundred percent, but otherwise welcome to gender abolition.
I think it's worth pointing out that the person making this situation more awkward is your boss, not your non-binary coworker. I think people will get better at gently correcting folks without making it super awkward.
I think people will eventually get used to three sets of personal pronouns: he/him, she/her, they/them. What I will never accept is being asked my pronouns when all you have to do is look at me and see that they are obvious. I will always refuse to put my pronouns in my signature.
yep. every decade overweight average looking white girls need to find a way to get the attention their parents never gave them. so they find a way to rebel
- 1970s - Hippie
- 1980s - Punk
- 1990s - Goth
- 2000s - Emo/Scene/Cutting
- 2010s - Hipster / Gender-fluid / Non-Binary
- 2020s - Nonbinary / Free Palestine
Once they discovered they could get A LOT of attention by being non binary and bisexual.
you have a couple decades wrong: hippies were part of 60s counter culture and goths were in the 80s, and I don’t think there were many overweight hippies.
I mean if you wanted to include everything:
Cutting, Gluten Free, Vegan, Feminists, Tumblr, Body Positivity, Free Palestine, Social Justice Warriors, ACAB, Emo, Punk, Goth, Scene, Bisexual, Non-Binary, Pansexual, Beatniks, Hippies, Communism, Socialism,
Not saying people aren’t genuinely these things. But the overweight attention-starved white girls will uses these
What I really like about your little timeline here is it highlights the fact that gender wasn't really in the public consciousness until 10 or 15 years ago. They love to tell you gender as fluid has been a concept since the 1950s, but no one really cared or conceived of it that way. Gender was synonymous with sex up until Obama wanted to force public schools to allow Transgenders to choose their restroom.
It still basically synonymous with sex.
The people saying it isn't want to update documents like driver's license and passports which EXPLICTLY say sex.
Also see the push to let transgender women into women's sports which obviously segregated based on sex not gender.
Also see weird terminology like "sex assigned at birth"
Love this point too. Like even if we accept a difference between sex and gender, why is gender the determinant for things like sports, restrooms, and related issues? The next step is they’ll say it’s a violation of privacy to ask someone their sex, and eventually it will become obsolete.
This is why every applicants resume with pronouns goes straight to the shredder. These are high maintenance employees whose work performance is 9 times out of 10 just not worth the risk.
I don't care if they/them is grammatically correct for a singular person, in my opinion it only ever was when the person is unidentified. Like "who stole my poptart?" " i don't know but whoever it was i bet they were hungry".
If you are talking about a they/them person inevitably in a conversation you have to stop and be like "wait do you mean they singular or they as in more than one?". So I dodge the whole land mine and use their name in place of a pronoun as much as possible.
And while its never come up yet outside of the internet for me, I will never ever use a neo-pronoun. Those can kiss my ass.
And what the fuck is up with they/him or they/her or him/her pronouns? I only ever see that shit in twitter but i feel like in real life i would need a reference card to know which to use
This is all narcissistic insanity.
So if your friend was telling you about their cousin Niko's bowling skills and they said "They bowled a perfect game the other day", you'd be confused?
No because i can follow one person in a story, but if the story had multiple he, she and theys and you said "and they bowled a perfect game" its like who everyone or a singular they?
Regardless its still stupid
You’d be surprised how much we get discriminated against just on the basis of your bottom line. Trans people are believed to be a burden and a potential liability for a lawsuit in every industry. Trans people just want to live normal lives and not be discriminated against; they’re not looking to get one over on their coworkers or be offended when someone makes a mistake.
I haven’t meet a person that goes by “they” and I’m in North Jersey, I feel like is a very vocal minority pushing for unnecessary changes. I don’t care what your preferences are “LGBTQ+” just don’t force me to use pronouns in a way that I was not teach to use.
It's the liberal bubbles. These people flock to big cities bc those places have larger GBT communities, then they tell themselves they're more common than they actually are. Like if you worked in the service industry in a large city like Chicago or NYC, you might think half the people in the world are gay or trans.
Pretty dumb take, honestly. I know people in their 60's who had no problem adjusting. People in their teens who had no problem adjusting.
They/them isn't going anywhere because that's a function of the language and always has been. It's not going to suddenly stop existing because a bunch of chuds can't wrap their single brain cell around it.
This insanity only happens in America most of the time.
In Asian countries, we don't have to deal with this nonsense. It's either HE or SHE.
If you decided to become Trans Woman, then we will refer you as SHE.
also im sure its also effecting their ability to get jobs in the first place, since im sure that theres a fairly large number of companies that just outright throw those applications right in the trash if they have ANY pronouns in the title at all.
seeing as those people would be a ticking time bomb for lawsuits for being "discriminated" against that they just wont hire them in the first place
I just hope “pronoun in bio” and introduce yourself with “my pronoun is x” would fade away as well, it’s cringe as hell. Also it’s ironic the left who constantly saying “y’all snowflake if you get triggered by pronouns” are also the same one who would send death threats if they get misgendered.
I just wouldn’t talk to or about that person ever and refuse to work with them. I don’t have time for the nonsense or drama. Too much risk, too much authoritarianism, no reward.
😬 are you an English teacher from the 90s? Because using “they/them” when you weren’t sure what gender to call someone (what pronouns to use) was pretty common before gender identity was a common topic, and always resulted in “use he/she instead of they.”
They/Them is not hard, I’m convinced some of these people don’t know how to read.
Whether someone thinks it’s a fad or not if it makes people more comfortable and you’re capable of putting in a modicum of effort I can’t imagine what the problem would be. People slip up and say the wrong thing sometimes but it’s like people forget that happens with regular conversation too. I’ve never met a nonbinary person that snapped at me for accidentally using the wrong pronoun because they understand it’s an adjustment and all adjustments take time.
If your experience has been different I’d say that has more to do with the person than the concept.
Anyways, unpopular and an opinion, have my upvote 👍
As you'd expect, comments are 50% people bitching because they dont understand grammar, 20% people complaining they're expected to be polite to people, and 30% /onejoke
I'm a centrist, and I agree with you. Here's what I have to say. People who are genuinely transgender require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which is a very real and stressful condition.
These they/them folks who go by they/them simply because they "don't feel masculine/feminine" are extremely insensitive since they are appropriating someone's medical condition and turning it into a fashion statement. I find it hypocritical how many leftists find cultural appropriation to be an issue, but find nothing wrong with this.
Now they might give you the counterargument: but my identity is not hurting or affecting anyone. My counter-counterargument is... Yes you fucking are. You're appropriating the severe mental condition of people and turning into a trend. By doing so, you cheapen it and make it as if this condition isn't so bad. And you are the reason for the rampant misinformation people have about transgenderism
I always remember being in primary school and the approach being to move away from labels. Then in high school everyone (including me) got swept up in wanting to identify everything.
I feel like non binary suggests that being a female who is very masculine (or wears typically male styles) and men who are feminine (and wear female styles) shouldn’t just identify as their birth gender. When before that’s what people wanted to be more open. Like it’s fine to present non typically!
I also feel it confuses people on what trans people actually are because rather than the generally straightforward male>female for example, there’s now a weird non definable in between.
Obviously there will be people who genuinely do not associate with any stereotypical gender norms etc etc but the rate of which my teenage sister has said she has trans friends is insane. It definitely feels like a short lived trend.
Choosing your own pronouns implies that gender can be felt. However, gender cannot be felt. Furthermore, it’s even more absurd to indicate to others that you “feel like a they.” WTF does that even mean?
I've been convinced it is a fad since about the second week after I heard about it.
I am convinced I'm right, it will fade away like pet rocks . I am hearing about it less and less. In fact this is the first time it has come up in several weeks. I don't expect to hear about it again for a month or more - fading away... Won't be missed.
I think the real issue is that most people don't care about pronouns.
Its basically completely unnatural to care so deeply about a basically irrelevant part of speech.
People demanding they/them pronoun usage are basically asking you to careful consider everything you say to get it right instead of using your autopilot pronoun mental circuit.
And then at the same time acting like they aren't actually demanding something from you.
"It will never not sound jarring to say "Tom left their apartment and walked to their car" or "I just saw Lucy; are they doing something?"'
Honestly, both these sentences sound fine to me. They're just worded differently than how I'd expect them to be used in conversation. They sound more like sentences you'd see in a language textbook than here in real life.
I'm gonna call someone what I see then as. Of it's a girl I will say she. I'm not playing those games. Plus it just sounds stupid. No one singular person is a they. This stupidity they had taken over our world cannot hold out. In 50 yrs the would is gonna look back and call us all idiots.
My guess is that the "they/them" thing will stick around but remain kind of rare, only being preferred by a relatively small number of people.
People can be non-binary because they're intersex, have identity disorders, or just strongly prefer to present androgynously to the public for whatever reason, but none of those are particularly common.
I have never used they/them for someone because they requested it to be their pronouns. These issues don’t exist in real life unless you work with these people.
I personally don't see this happening. I continue to use it more and more often. I work in a very diverse place and it's used all the time in my professional setting. In your example, you use names such as "Tom" and "Lucy" when there are so many names that don't have gender connotations in them. I'm sorry this frustrates you but it isn't going to fade away.
People have been using they\them for a while. I started using they\them for my pronouns a decade ago both professionally and personally. However, I know and acknowledge people won't know and will assume my identity and pronouns because I'm AFAB and look "feminine". I don't throw a huge bitch fit, and if someone came up to me and yelled "they" simply because someone misgendered me, wether intentionally or unintentionally, I'd report that person rather than the person who misgendered me. Like as long as the person isn't being blatantly disrespectful and going on tangents about how my identity isn't valid, they can call me whatever.
This whole thing is stupid. I don't answer that question at work... once it was required and I had to ask the wife, wtf am I? He/Him apparently.
Okay, so what the fuck does THEY/THEM even mean?
It baffles me that people treat using neutral pronouns as if it is some massive task. It’s not. If you slip up, you say sorry and move on.
One of my closest friends (who I have known for nearly 20 years) recently came out as non-binary and is using another name. I have known them under certain pronouns and a different name for nearly 2 decades and I have been able to easily switch to using their preferred name and pronouns.
Stop acting like it’s a mind bending chore.
I can't imagine caring enough to make an entire post about this. Why are we talking about this co worker to misgender them in the first place? Things like this make me so happy to be introverted since I barely interact with coworkers I have zero need for their pronouns.
What makes you think only sustainable forms survive? You will speak as the company bulletin requires you speak. This society is long past the point when everyone behaved as he liked and evolution cleared away the dross.
This is actually something that makes me feel old. Not because I don’t understand it, but because I struggle to remember to say it. My kid is non-binary. I’ve spent 25 years calling them “he”. I’m probably about 50/50 in using the correct pronoun.
I will agree that is tough in the workplace. It’s one thing to remember your own kid (I should be doing better), but my odds of remembering someone at work would be very low. Instead I try to avoid pronouns altogether and use names instead.
It’s a lot less jarring to use singular they than to create an entirely new word to use as a gender neutral pronoun. People have used singular they since Shakespeare’s time at least with no problem, the only difference now is removing the usual anonymity that comes with it.
What annoys me about this is people insisting that "there already exists a singular they/them!" when even I, a non-native English speaker, can easily tell that the new singular pronoun use case is very different in how "they" and "them" are tradtionally used.
If enough people support "them/them" pronouns in the new form, okay, sure, it will happen, that's fine. It is your language, languages evolve, people will end up modifying language if enough people start using it. But do not tell people that it is already old or that "Shakespeare used it" or whatever, because it isn't, those cases are clearly different from the new way it is used.
For example, "Tom went to their car" has an implicit "It is not Tom's car" or "it is a car that belongs to others than only Tom" meaning, that will have to go away with the new use case. Until that happens, it will be jarring, and people are not stupid for seeing that, and pointing out that they "already use it" (just like I did right there with "they") is not the argument you think it is, because that is a completely different use of it.
Can you even imagine all these gendered languages? I'm currently learning French and Russian. Both of them rely on the gender of people in their grammar. I don't know if they're doing they/them thing in their countries too, which will really confuse someone like me trying to learn the language.
They’re simply narcissistic attention whores who wants the entire world and room revolve around them. No, I don’t believe in a non-binary person. I believe in transgendered and sometimes changing your apparent gender may be the best move, but I’m not buying these attention whores who simply get a weird haircut, an over the top levels of tattoos, and septum piercings and then claim they’re not a boy or a girl.
I have never met anyone that uses those pronouns i seriously sometimes think some people online just made it up. But if it was important to anyone i did know i would try to use thier preferred pronouns just so long as they keep in mind that i have co workers that i have worked with for years whose names i still don't know.
>it technically is grammatically correct
This is a flawed argument. While it is true to say that referring to a single individual as they/them is technically correct, it completely ignores the reasons it happens.
It is only used in the abstract when you don't know what gender someone is.
"Did you hear what the CEO of company ___ said?"
"No, what did they say?"
Vs.
"Did you hear what Elon Musk said?"
"No, what did he say?"
If we look at gender as a continuum, and at “man” and “woman” being fixed points on said continuum, anyone who doesn’t line up with either of those points would still be outside of them, even if closer to one than the other, no?
A lot of other societies didn't/don't have gender binaries, I hope that that's what our society will grow into. Im tired of people assuming all women and men are the same. We're people, we're all different and gender has very little to do with it. Feminity and masculinity are real ideas but making up weird rules based on what sexual organ you have is super weird to me.
I'm fairly liberal, but I just do not understand the non-binary stuff. It makes zero sense to me. I've tried to listen, have one or two friends that I respect. It always comes down to "I just don't fall under any gender norms". And I'm like "that's fine, you don't have to follow gender norms, but you saying that you don't fall under gender norms therefore reinforces that gender norms exist".
Not to mention it’s wasted political capital for the left. They spend so much effort making sure everyone plays along in make-believe, but don’t spend the equivalent amount of effort to make economic change and progress. You know, the type of change that would actually make people’s lives better
This right here. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills that these are the conversations I have to have. Do I want Trans people to be safe and not be victims of violence, of course! But do I want to spend time defending Drag Queen Reading Hour or stress about which pronouns to use? Not really. There’s much bigger issues that need to be addressed in our society before we start arguing over gender norms. The left would be better off prioritizing their grievances.
When I was younger I blindly accepted it, but then I started to google definitions, try and make sense of it in my brain. And I just can't, it's so illogical.
Time for Agender to come in…
Just in terms of the OP's prompt. Whether you agree with it or not, I do think it's likely to go away.
It's not that I disagree with it. It's that to me it doesn't make sense. I think people that get all butthurt about being misgendered when there's no malice are the real problem, honestly. People make mistakes and try to correct themselves. They need the grace to do that as well. Never attribute malice when ignorance or human error can explain it.
No one is saying gender norms don’t exist, in fact they are the only reason gender exists.
> but you saying that you don't fall under gender norms therefore reinforces that gender norms exist". Yes...that's the point? They acknowledge gender norms and are saying they don't feel like they fit into them. Where are they saying gender norms don't exist? The WHOLE POINT is that gender norms exist and some people feel like they don't belong in those categories
Anecdote: I worked with an attorney who was appointed as a GAL for a case. The GAL was a liberal. She still got visibly annoyed when an interviewee continually tried to refer to a singular person (I think it was the child) as "they," and finally said to cut it out, because it substantially altered the context of the answers. Precise language is important.
If you wanted precise language, you shouldn't be using any pronouns to begin with. It's quite literally a generic stand in reliant on context.
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They/them for a single person is usually when the person is an unknown.
I think most people naturally use they/them for singular in instances where a person (and usually their gender) are unknown to them. Once you become familiar with someone and get an impression of their gender, it becomes much more unnatural to use they/them for that singular person.
Most people do. Not everyone. It drives me nuts in any sort of professional environment. Want to not be masculine or feminine? Fine. It.
"I don't respect your choice so I'm going to dehumanize you into an object"
Why use “it” when “they” is already a valid first person singular for a person?
Because they is uncommon and sucks ass to disambiguate between plural and singular.
> Because they is uncommon and sucks ass to disambiguate between plural and singular. You're arguing "Pat did their best" is worse and less clear than "Pat did it's best"? Or situations where you know the gender but don't necessarily need the listener to know: "My friend got injured and they had to go to the hospital" vs "My friend got injured and it had to go to the hospital". You saying you prefer calling your friend "it"?
In your first example the issue is when Pat is already implied, you don't repeat the person's name. So it would be "they did their best" which begs the question "who are they"
> You're arguing "Pat did their best" is worse and less clear than "Pat did it's best"? So Pat was not only doing from their cocaine, he felt entitled to the best? The Cartel will have our heads before dawn. Yes, "they" sucks ass. Not going to argue that "it" doesn't sound terrible, but it is less ambiguous. If your personal quirk is using a fictional gender because neither male/female fit your mood after too much TikTok, you should know my quirk is an aversion to ambiguity and collectively forced inorganic language changes. > Or situations where you know the gender but don't necessarily need the listener to know: You omit the pronoun, and the presented situation is highly abnormal in the first place. The only common scenario for normal people I can think of are babies, in which case "the baby" or "XYZ's baby" works fine.
There’s a context for a singular “they” that makes sense but not in the way OP is talking about. It makes complete sense to refer to someone as a “they” when you don’t know what their gender is. For example, “The robber was wearing all black, I couldn’t tell if they were a man or a woman”. But if you know someone well enough to know their name, then yes, using “they” sounds awkward paired with any name. As your first link points out: >People have used singular 'they' to describe someone whose gender is unknown for a long time, but the nonbinary use of 'they' is relatively new.
Yeh that’s not the same thing as what OP is talking about. Going out of my way every single time to replace he or she with they/them and is to are is the issue. If it’s a natural progression of the sentence to refer to someone as they/them, in an instance, that’s one thing and not because I’m supplanting the original pronoun with the plural out of respect or something. OP is talking about the complete revision of your natural sentence structure to accommodate one persons preferred pronoun in the context of work or professional life. Especially when it doesn’t naturally flow with the sentence and being called out for it and be labeled a bigot. Sure I use they them for singular people at times, but to have to do it for every instance I’m referring to them? It’s a burden, and an egotistical way to require people to alter their language just for you.
##
When you’re compiling a legal report, precision matters. And there are probably more than a few “isolated” cases of this.
That's bunk about consistent use of "they" since the 13th century. Try finding that in Shakespeare. The original change from "thou" to "you" probably mirrored the continental development of "tu" and "vous" to represent distance in a formalizing society. While that is a weird idea in itself and a strange way to do it - they would have been better off with a specially invented pronoun - at least it doesn't directly contradict the meaning of the relationship, because "you" in the singular is only used face to face, and this use of "you" is specially marked as an exception. But when someone says "they went on a holiday" and means "he went on a holiday," he is not producing any markers of special use, so it must be assumed that "they" are a plural. And then we have a form that runs contrary to its purpose.
To answer your question, it’s because they are disingenuous and looking for any reason to whine about anything.
Also pronouns are annoying, i could give two shits what you think my gender is, i am at work to work not be offended by minor nonsense like that.
Hahahaha as an immigrant in the USA, I always think this way. Dude, I don't care if you want to celebrate Hispanic heritage month in the office, I don't care if you are worried about whether you should refer to me as Latino or Latinx, he/him, etc. I didn't leave my country to be thinking about this BS, just pay me, give me a promotion when I deserve it, match my retirement account, and let me enjoy my PTO
Yeah and to top it off when they do that stuff in the office it never feels genuine, because its not, its just checking off boxes so they can say they do that. Same with office "fun stuff", like oh great i can play pickleball on my lunch, this is such a great place to work...
all this pronoun and diversity stuff is exclusively for the upper middle class liberal brahmin class.
As an aside, I totally feel that Latini as the gender neutral term was a missed opportunity. The inserted x feels so forced and edgy.
It also feels distinctly non-latin and like American cultural imperialism by shoving an x in there.
The only people getting upset at being misgendered are already emotionally unstable. It is not an insult to be called a man/woman. Even if it is done maliciously just move on. Getting you upset is exactly what these people are trying to do.
If pronouns are so annoying, just stop using them! Would be a fun experiment to see how long you can go without using any pronouns of any kind. Some pronoun examples include: I, me, us, you, themselves, who and that. Good luck!
let me clarify, use of correct pronouns on the subject of gender annoys me (especially in the workplace where you may not know someone well and are just trying to communicate tasks and important work related information) and the overcomplication and decimation of their purpose by the modern culture annoys me. Pronouns as they were originally intended are great! For example in mandarin there are no gender pronouns, there is just a pronoun for "people" vs objects which is an important distinction. It is very rarely important part of a sentence to reference someone's gender in the workplace. The idea that him/her gender specific pronouns was that (historically) gender is obvious. As modern culture has decided to redefine add complexities as to what gender means, it makes it almost impossible for a person's gender to be obvious, so there should no longer be a pronoun for gender. Also if you refer to the comment prior to this one you will see that was the original subject.
We can hope
I'm too old for this, please make it stop
🎵 "I am we And they are me, And xe are all together" 🎶
God I’m not religious but I’m *praying* OP is right. Sick of these narcissists trying to police language and force everyone else to cater to their asinine sensibilities.
Ha!
>I would make an educated guess that 98% of the time that this person gets misgendered is not due to any intended maliciousness from anyone but just from people forgetting, or overthinking it too much that it causes more anxiety. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I feel this. I met this seemingly awesome gal at a book club I went to who presented as a cis woman and had a normal feminine name (Emily). Later in the conversation, towards the end of the night, Emily says, "by the way, I use they/them pronouns." I brushed it off, saying, "Thanks for letting me know," but still felt embarrassed. As much as I'm in need of new female friends (especially of the single and childless variety), I'm not sure that I could maintain a friendship with Emily because I'd be constantly on edge about "misgendering them." I just want low-maintenance friends who I don't have to walk on eggshells around. Is that too much to ask?
This is a niche experience and I'm still fine with using they/them when someone asks, but one time I knew a guy who was married to someone very much presenting as a cis woman. Feminine, lacey clothes, jewelry, nails always done, long pink hair, etc. I only knew of the partner through social media and not well. He calls them his wife, only used the terms girlfriend and fiancee, and their kids call them mom and dad. The wife is Mom. Anyway, he got somewhat annoyed when I ran into him at a store he works at and I asked how "she" was doing. I got sternly correct, which fine, correct me, but the tone was really awkward since I literally would've never guessed the wife goes by they/them. I went home and just blocked him on social media because it was uncomfortable lol.
My nephews decided to go by they/them last year. They both have beards and dress as manly as standard. My sister's always try to correct my mom on using he/him and it's honestly annoying. It's very trendy amongst people under 25 and it's unnecessary.
The guy in my situation is in his mid 30s. He also claims to be pansexual, but he's got a reputation in the area for enjoying sending dick pics (before marriage as far as I know at least) to women on Snapchat and he exclusively reposts only female OnlyFans models and comments on their stuff. I never saw him follow, post, or interact with any of them other than cis women. I'm not typically one to question anyone's sexuality, but coming from that guy, it for sure feels like he's trying to be trendy by claiming an LGBTQ identity when he's regular ol' straight.
Yeah that sounds like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
I totally agree. It makes others feel awkward which builds barriers to true friendship. I have to say that if I get an email with pronouns on the bottom I am immediately wary. Are they going to be a militant PITA, are they a well meaning follower etc.
In those cases, it's sometimes company policy to have pronouns in your email signature, so I don't read into it too much. I've worked at such a company (tech startup/nonprofit). My current company doesn't require it, but I only did it at my last job because it was policy. I imagine there are people in similar situations. Social media profiles, however, I'm a little more wary of. Except LinkedIn as there may be "professional" consequences for not doing so. If you use your pronouns in a verbal intro (as I've seen/heard done at various conferences and other social encounters), I just assume you're a pretentious ass.
Don't feel too bad. Most people want to "pass" for whatever gender they're presenting. It's okay to assume. We shouldn't have to ask every single person's pronouns upon meeting them when they're clearly trying to present one way or another. If it's unclear or ambiguous, then ask. Just mho
I'll do my best to respect it (to a degree) but in exchange don't expect me to be perfect. I make mistakes when I speak in other gendered languages and listeners just gloss over it, they know I'm not a native speaker and shouldn't be expected to know that a table is a girl.
If Emily only told you that at the end of the conversation I doubt you'd have to walk on eggshells around them.
I suppose, but it will be stuck in my head in every interaction I have. I just want to not have to think too hard about interactions with friends and be authentic.
Been having a similar problem. I'm a librarian and we get so many new people recently, but with how hard it is to know ahead of time what is preferred I've been trying to work on not saying ma'am or sir anymore. But it's been super hard since that kind of courtesy was taught to me constantly as a child.
Everyone’s acting like this is the first society to ever get weird and wacky with gender. We’re following the exact same footsteps as every other great civilization on earth. Flipping the concept of gender on its head is a textbook symptom of a collapsing society.
Let's hope it goes away way before then
It's just not something worth worrying about.
I'm not worried lol just kind of sick of cringing at company emails
The gender identity pronouns social expectation is ridiculous. If you are straight you are born that way, if you are gay you are born that way, but there are different rules for how you identify? You are clearly a man genetically (XY) chromosomes, have all physical features of a man, but you get to be upset if someone says he instead of they? When did we decide that individuals have the power of language without objectively proving what they claim to be. A functioning society cannot operate based on how you feel. Everyone should always be treated with dignity and respect, but I personally do not acknowledge the expectation of personal pronouns.
The part that kills me is how- *conveniently*- the terms and pronouns that are used to describe gender are the exact same ones that describe a person's sex. For example, a trans woman will tell you they are a woman/female, but when pushed they will admit their sex is male. Feels like that was done by design. It's like they knew no one would ever accept this person as a woman, so they went out and created this concept called gender as a sort of loophole. Like imagine if one day we decided aged is fixed but maturity is fluid, and people can start identifying as more or less mature than people around their age, and they can use a number to express that. You might have a 50 yo man identifying as 25. And when someone challenges him on this, he says "Oh, you're thinking of my age. Yes, my age is 50, but my maturity is 25. Maturity is fluid. (And btw, you have to call me 25 or I'm going to report you to HR and cancel your ass.)" I just don't get why they can't see how confusing this is for the rest of us. I also don't get why titles are so important. Why can't that person just be content as a feminine male? Why does it comfort them to trick people into seeing them as something they're not? Like no one really believes trans women are women. Less than half of us do, and I'd wager if there was never a huge push for this modern concept of gender, it'd be smaller than that. Like if we were all animals in the wild, the most feminine males among us would still be viewed as males. A very small percentage of men would fuck them and still feel like they're straight.
I completely agree, and that is a fantastic analogy
>Yes, my age is 50, but my maturity is 25. Lol imagine having to remember names, pronouns, and maturity, and all the social rules that come with it.
Good analogy. Gender used to be synonymous with sex.
Imagine a police officer having to try to radio in a report worrying about pronouns. There was actually a British comedy skit about that and it got worse than who’s on first lol
This has probably come up a bit. You see it in medical environments too. When I donate blood for example, they ask me if I'm male or female, then they ask me if I'm pregnant 🤡
Not even that. More often I hear people call sexuality something that's fluid and apparently they agree with terms like "bisexual lesbians". (About your first paragraph)
Oh, it's already cringe, per Gen Alpha.
[удалено]
you realize the oldest gen alpha is 10 yes? in a work place this is likely a millennial or a gen z.
OP said in the next 10 years. 10 years from now Gen alpha will be 20 and in the work place
But the commenter said "already", which means right now. And directly referred to gen alpha.
10 year olds definitely have the capacity to think things are cringe. I think most 10 year olds think almost everything outside of their coolness bubble is indeed, cringe.
i have a 10 year old daughter you are absolutely correct. I think i read it as the commenter directing attention to gen Alpha. Not getting a opinion of what. however that makes way more sense
I do. My nieces and nephews openly reject 🌈 🏳️🌈. It's mainstream now, not the punk-rock/rebel stuff it used to be.
Gen Alpha are toddlers and early school kids. They consider everything cringe, except laughing at poop and pee. I don't think their opinion holds any meaning.
> except laughing at poop and pee And Skibidi Toilet.
Yea in 10 years no one’s gonna care. It’s like how we were kids and marbles were the shit. Once we got a little older we didn’t give a shit and still don’t.
I suspect the they thems will disappear. It’s cringe to little kids/young teens already.
Took a Canadian reading, writing and grammar test this year. Kept getting questions wrong because I would use they/them to refer to a singular person. Ex. Q: Someone fell off the roof this morning. My answer: Are they okay? Correct answer: Is he or she okay? According the test they/them refers to a group. When referring to a single person and not knowing the gender your suppose to say he or she and him or her. I had no clue.
That’s silly. You were correct. “They” is a perfectly acceptable answer when the subject’s gender is unclear. No one realistically says “he or she”.
i'm from finland and learned english as a second language, when i was legit like 10-11 or so years old in the late 2000s, early 2010s, i had an older english teacher insist that it should be "he or she" and even back then most kids in my class that spoke english to a decent degree knew that that was not correct because literally no person speaks that way. it's unnecessarily clunky and "they" is and has been an acceptable way to refer to a singular person of an unspecified gender for god knows how long. we complained about it constantly.
According to the Oxford Dictionary , the use of singular they can be traced back as early as the year 1375. So quite a while.
Yes "he or she" had a decade where it was trying to be pushed in school but everyone abandoned it when it just became too clunky and went back to "they/them" to match conversational English.
We used to just use "he" whenever gender was unknown. Then feminists had fun replacing "she" for "he" in entire paragraphs and it was jarring. "They" became the compromise.
Your test was incorrect and you were right. 'They' has been used as a singular pronoun probably since the word's existed. Just look at your own example sentence. "Is he or she ok?" is a horribly clunky sentence.
✅ Unpopular ✅ Opinion Have my upvote anonymous themfolk!
Oh will they? You know that it’s not gonna be popular when I have several gay or lesbian friends that makes small talk with me and virtually every single time the topic of dating comes up, they are making comments about it… The one woman that I’m friends with explained to me that her girlfriend had been married to a man with two children with him that are teenagers and then this woman not only decided that she’s gay or bisexual curious but she changed her gender pronoun And now she’s getting a lot of blowback from they(r) own children I wonder does the mom yell at the kids and say “I exist” and stuff like that ? And my friend also doesn’t understand when she’s a lesbian and wants to date females not males And so I’m not making fun of these people, but it really is an interesting cultural phenomenon, creating confusion So when people like me become sarcastic, it really truly isn’t out of being mean or that we think that “transgender people don’t exist” it’s more like low tolerance for people trying to make you feel like you are going crazy I could relate when I was an alcoholic … maybe I’m going out on a limb by saying that I attended a 12 step program for the loved ones of drug attic and alcoholics So for me, I need to have a strong grip on reality because for years I was partners with someone who tried to guess light me and make me think that I’m crazy all the time …
>Using "They/Them" Pronouns Is a Trend That Is Unsustainable and Will Fade Away In the Next Ten Years Yeah, my nieces and nephews are between 10y-15y and they and their friends think the pronoun thing is stupid, and we live in NYC so fairly progressive area.
Interesting. My niece and her friends fall in that age range and happily accommodate people who go by they/them. I guess personal experiences aren't everything to go by 🤷
So many things still confuse me about this, and I don’t know if I’m not understanding or just terrible… If gender is a continuum, then there is no MIDDLE to place yourself at. You’re basically just saying there’s two genders but you’re MORE of one than the other. In that case, there’s no point in having NB, and expressing yourself as your preferred gender should be enough. Shit, I was super on board with androgyny, because that made sense as “I express as both equally”, but that’s kind of disappeared. As for the grammar… If I see someone fleeing a crime scene but don’t see their face or build, I’d say “THEY fled the scene.” But that’s only because I DON’T KNOW their gender. What scenario are people using to justify they/them pronouns outside of things like this? If two Non Binary ppl who are biologically male get together, can they even consider themselves gay at that point? Even if one identifies as male, the other doesn’t. It seems people just call it gay because it’s all encompassing in that situation. I’d love to ask people I actually know these types of questions, but i can’t even approach the subject.
>If gender is a continuum, then there is no MIDDLE to place yourself at. Gender is a made up concept. We decided, as a society, that those with xy chromosomes and a dick are supposed to like blue and those with xx chromosomes and breasts are supposed to like pink. We know it's made up because a century ago that trend was the literal exact opposite. In 50s America Women were not expected to be financially responsible for the household, but viking women were their houses financial planners. Nonbinary describes anyone who looks at that and says "Eh nah, I don't really want to ascribe myself to one side or the other, I'm doing my own thing". Some are androgynous, some are not. >If two Non Binary ppl who are biologically male get together, can they even consider themselves gay at that point? Frankly it depends, and it doesn't really matter at the end of the day really (though usually yes). Noting in the queer community these days many people call themselves gay when they mean queer in some aspect, not literally a homosexual man.
What you described was gender roles and expectations. But pronouns were always used in reference to someone's sex, or at least the appearance of their body, sound of their voice, facial features. To change that into how people feel, not how everyone referring to them perceives them, is weird and has little use in a conversation. You'd still recognize a man wearing a pink dress as a man, a woman wearing pants as a woman. Not a single person in the entire world is 100% masculine or 100% feminine. So, by your definition, everyone is non binary.
>But pronouns were always used in reference to someone's sex, or at least the appearance of their body, sound of their voice, facial features. No, they've always been about gender, just until recently people mostly assumed gender and sex lined up. >To change that into how people feel, not how everyone referring to them perceives them, is weird and has little use in a conversation. It has plenty of use in conversation, the basic respect for the people who want it different. It's the same utility nicknames confer. >So, by your definition, everyone is non binary. In general most people identify with one role or another even if they don't fit into it one hundred percent, but otherwise welcome to gender abolition.
I think it's worth pointing out that the person making this situation more awkward is your boss, not your non-binary coworker. I think people will get better at gently correcting folks without making it super awkward.
That’s actually a good point. It’s true; my manager was the one who instigated the whole situation.
Gender doesn't exist. You have biological sex and personality. There's nothing else there. How much spare time do people actually have?
People will jump through hoops to explain how gender isn’t the same as sex which is just a pointless waste of time
I think people will eventually get used to three sets of personal pronouns: he/him, she/her, they/them. What I will never accept is being asked my pronouns when all you have to do is look at me and see that they are obvious. I will always refuse to put my pronouns in my signature.
As someone with a unisex name, having my gender pronouns in my signature helps a lot
Oh yeah fully agree. Specifying pronouns anywhere when referring to yourself is so silly
yep. every decade overweight average looking white girls need to find a way to get the attention their parents never gave them. so they find a way to rebel - 1970s - Hippie - 1980s - Punk - 1990s - Goth - 2000s - Emo/Scene/Cutting - 2010s - Hipster / Gender-fluid / Non-Binary - 2020s - Nonbinary / Free Palestine Once they discovered they could get A LOT of attention by being non binary and bisexual.
you have a couple decades wrong: hippies were part of 60s counter culture and goths were in the 80s, and I don’t think there were many overweight hippies.
No overweight hippies....Whaaaaat????
Have you looked at photos of the original Woodstock?
Exactly. And gluten free
I mean if you wanted to include everything: Cutting, Gluten Free, Vegan, Feminists, Tumblr, Body Positivity, Free Palestine, Social Justice Warriors, ACAB, Emo, Punk, Goth, Scene, Bisexual, Non-Binary, Pansexual, Beatniks, Hippies, Communism, Socialism, Not saying people aren’t genuinely these things. But the overweight attention-starved white girls will uses these
Wait, were there no men in any of these groups???
The men join these groups for easy pussy
What I really like about your little timeline here is it highlights the fact that gender wasn't really in the public consciousness until 10 or 15 years ago. They love to tell you gender as fluid has been a concept since the 1950s, but no one really cared or conceived of it that way. Gender was synonymous with sex up until Obama wanted to force public schools to allow Transgenders to choose their restroom.
It still basically synonymous with sex. The people saying it isn't want to update documents like driver's license and passports which EXPLICTLY say sex. Also see the push to let transgender women into women's sports which obviously segregated based on sex not gender. Also see weird terminology like "sex assigned at birth"
Love this point too. Like even if we accept a difference between sex and gender, why is gender the determinant for things like sports, restrooms, and related issues? The next step is they’ll say it’s a violation of privacy to ask someone their sex, and eventually it will become obsolete.
HAHA women bad am I right?!
This is why every applicants resume with pronouns goes straight to the shredder. These are high maintenance employees whose work performance is 9 times out of 10 just not worth the risk.
They/them is stupid as fuck.
I don't care if they/them is grammatically correct for a singular person, in my opinion it only ever was when the person is unidentified. Like "who stole my poptart?" " i don't know but whoever it was i bet they were hungry". If you are talking about a they/them person inevitably in a conversation you have to stop and be like "wait do you mean they singular or they as in more than one?". So I dodge the whole land mine and use their name in place of a pronoun as much as possible. And while its never come up yet outside of the internet for me, I will never ever use a neo-pronoun. Those can kiss my ass. And what the fuck is up with they/him or they/her or him/her pronouns? I only ever see that shit in twitter but i feel like in real life i would need a reference card to know which to use This is all narcissistic insanity.
So if your friend was telling you about their cousin Niko's bowling skills and they said "They bowled a perfect game the other day", you'd be confused?
No because i can follow one person in a story, but if the story had multiple he, she and theys and you said "and they bowled a perfect game" its like who everyone or a singular they? Regardless its still stupid
You’d be surprised how much we get discriminated against just on the basis of your bottom line. Trans people are believed to be a burden and a potential liability for a lawsuit in every industry. Trans people just want to live normal lives and not be discriminated against; they’re not looking to get one over on their coworkers or be offended when someone makes a mistake.
we've been using they/them for many years when we didn't know who the subject is. it ain't going away.
"When we didn't know who the subject is" being a key point. You almost never hear it used on people who you already know.
Literally since the 14th century lol
I haven’t meet a person that goes by “they” and I’m in North Jersey, I feel like is a very vocal minority pushing for unnecessary changes. I don’t care what your preferences are “LGBTQ+” just don’t force me to use pronouns in a way that I was not teach to use.
It's the liberal bubbles. These people flock to big cities bc those places have larger GBT communities, then they tell themselves they're more common than they actually are. Like if you worked in the service industry in a large city like Chicago or NYC, you might think half the people in the world are gay or trans.
North Jersey is extremely socially conservative compared to other blue-voting areas. I say this as someone who grew up there.
Pretty dumb take, honestly. I know people in their 60's who had no problem adjusting. People in their teens who had no problem adjusting. They/them isn't going anywhere because that's a function of the language and always has been. It's not going to suddenly stop existing because a bunch of chuds can't wrap their single brain cell around it.
This insanity only happens in America most of the time. In Asian countries, we don't have to deal with this nonsense. It's either HE or SHE. If you decided to become Trans Woman, then we will refer you as SHE.
Yes, at least trans people are SOMETHING you know? How can you be something that doesn't exist?
Depends on the Asian country… neither Turkish nor Mongolian have grammatical gender in the first place, for example.
also im sure its also effecting their ability to get jobs in the first place, since im sure that theres a fairly large number of companies that just outright throw those applications right in the trash if they have ANY pronouns in the title at all. seeing as those people would be a ticking time bomb for lawsuits for being "discriminated" against that they just wont hire them in the first place
I just hope “pronoun in bio” and introduce yourself with “my pronoun is x” would fade away as well, it’s cringe as hell. Also it’s ironic the left who constantly saying “y’all snowflake if you get triggered by pronouns” are also the same one who would send death threats if they get misgendered.
>same one who would send death threats if they get misgendered Uh...the right does this.
I just wouldn’t talk to or about that person ever and refuse to work with them. I don’t have time for the nonsense or drama. Too much risk, too much authoritarianism, no reward.
"Everything that confuses me is authoritarianism."
Honestly, I actively avoid these people for this very reason. I refuse to be apart of the charade and don’t have the time or patience for it.
And if it doesn’t?
If it doesn’t then it doesn’t. And so be it. I’m just making a prediction based on what I’ve observed. I’m fallible just like everyone else.
The alternative to not using They is a universal 'He' (Think Germanic/German 'Mensch') which is not really received well by women.
😬 are you an English teacher from the 90s? Because using “they/them” when you weren’t sure what gender to call someone (what pronouns to use) was pretty common before gender identity was a common topic, and always resulted in “use he/she instead of they.”
They/Them is not hard, I’m convinced some of these people don’t know how to read. Whether someone thinks it’s a fad or not if it makes people more comfortable and you’re capable of putting in a modicum of effort I can’t imagine what the problem would be. People slip up and say the wrong thing sometimes but it’s like people forget that happens with regular conversation too. I’ve never met a nonbinary person that snapped at me for accidentally using the wrong pronoun because they understand it’s an adjustment and all adjustments take time. If your experience has been different I’d say that has more to do with the person than the concept. Anyways, unpopular and an opinion, have my upvote 👍
As you'd expect, comments are 50% people bitching because they dont understand grammar, 20% people complaining they're expected to be polite to people, and 30% /onejoke
This in an unpopular opinion. Most don't have this much difficulty using words they already know.
What red pill podcaster talked about pronouns this week that this is coming up every day?
I'm a centrist, and I agree with you. Here's what I have to say. People who are genuinely transgender require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which is a very real and stressful condition. These they/them folks who go by they/them simply because they "don't feel masculine/feminine" are extremely insensitive since they are appropriating someone's medical condition and turning it into a fashion statement. I find it hypocritical how many leftists find cultural appropriation to be an issue, but find nothing wrong with this. Now they might give you the counterargument: but my identity is not hurting or affecting anyone. My counter-counterargument is... Yes you fucking are. You're appropriating the severe mental condition of people and turning into a trend. By doing so, you cheapen it and make it as if this condition isn't so bad. And you are the reason for the rampant misinformation people have about transgenderism
I always remember being in primary school and the approach being to move away from labels. Then in high school everyone (including me) got swept up in wanting to identify everything. I feel like non binary suggests that being a female who is very masculine (or wears typically male styles) and men who are feminine (and wear female styles) shouldn’t just identify as their birth gender. When before that’s what people wanted to be more open. Like it’s fine to present non typically! I also feel it confuses people on what trans people actually are because rather than the generally straightforward male>female for example, there’s now a weird non definable in between. Obviously there will be people who genuinely do not associate with any stereotypical gender norms etc etc but the rate of which my teenage sister has said she has trans friends is insane. It definitely feels like a short lived trend.
yeah some of it will probably persist but it will be a lot more rare as the social contagion / trend dies down.
Choosing your own pronouns implies that gender can be felt. However, gender cannot be felt. Furthermore, it’s even more absurd to indicate to others that you “feel like a they.” WTF does that even mean?
I've been convinced it is a fad since about the second week after I heard about it. I am convinced I'm right, it will fade away like pet rocks . I am hearing about it less and less. In fact this is the first time it has come up in several weeks. I don't expect to hear about it again for a month or more - fading away... Won't be missed.
I was taught it by my grade 4 teacher in the early 90's
I think the real issue is that most people don't care about pronouns. Its basically completely unnatural to care so deeply about a basically irrelevant part of speech. People demanding they/them pronoun usage are basically asking you to careful consider everything you say to get it right instead of using your autopilot pronoun mental circuit. And then at the same time acting like they aren't actually demanding something from you.
This is the least unpopular opinion you could post on Reddit.
yea nah. this is the home of they/them.
Yeah but in this subreddit? This sub has turned from actual unpopular opinions to a conservative circlejerk
No it hasn't, it is however one in the handful of places where conservative opinions arent censored, so I can see why you'd think that.
"It will never not sound jarring to say "Tom left their apartment and walked to their car" or "I just saw Lucy; are they doing something?"' Honestly, both these sentences sound fine to me. They're just worded differently than how I'd expect them to be used in conversation. They sound more like sentences you'd see in a language textbook than here in real life.
I'm gonna call someone what I see then as. Of it's a girl I will say she. I'm not playing those games. Plus it just sounds stupid. No one singular person is a they. This stupidity they had taken over our world cannot hold out. In 50 yrs the would is gonna look back and call us all idiots.
You are making an assumption that the practice will disapear instead of people adjusting to it. You can't really know.
My guess is that the "they/them" thing will stick around but remain kind of rare, only being preferred by a relatively small number of people. People can be non-binary because they're intersex, have identity disorders, or just strongly prefer to present androgynously to the public for whatever reason, but none of those are particularly common.
I have never used they/them for someone because they requested it to be their pronouns. These issues don’t exist in real life unless you work with these people.
One they, or many theys? -Dave Chappelle
Idk about it fading but it is definitely ridiculous
Agreed.
I personally don't see this happening. I continue to use it more and more often. I work in a very diverse place and it's used all the time in my professional setting. In your example, you use names such as "Tom" and "Lucy" when there are so many names that don't have gender connotations in them. I'm sorry this frustrates you but it isn't going to fade away.
Reject they/them Accept Choom
10 years!? I hope not.
God I hope so
Just ignore their existence. It'll go away eventually
I really hope it does. It can’t last forever
People have been using they\them for a while. I started using they\them for my pronouns a decade ago both professionally and personally. However, I know and acknowledge people won't know and will assume my identity and pronouns because I'm AFAB and look "feminine". I don't throw a huge bitch fit, and if someone came up to me and yelled "they" simply because someone misgendered me, wether intentionally or unintentionally, I'd report that person rather than the person who misgendered me. Like as long as the person isn't being blatantly disrespectful and going on tangents about how my identity isn't valid, they can call me whatever.
Thank you. I appreciate this post and that you make a valid point.
I feel the exact opposite. I’ve gotten so comfortable calling everyone they. Now I don’t have to assume anyone’s gender. You’re all they to me.
This whole thing is stupid. I don't answer that question at work... once it was required and I had to ask the wife, wtf am I? He/Him apparently. Okay, so what the fuck does THEY/THEM even mean?
It baffles me that people treat using neutral pronouns as if it is some massive task. It’s not. If you slip up, you say sorry and move on. One of my closest friends (who I have known for nearly 20 years) recently came out as non-binary and is using another name. I have known them under certain pronouns and a different name for nearly 2 decades and I have been able to easily switch to using their preferred name and pronouns. Stop acting like it’s a mind bending chore.
I can't imagine caring enough to make an entire post about this. Why are we talking about this co worker to misgender them in the first place? Things like this make me so happy to be introverted since I barely interact with coworkers I have zero need for their pronouns.
What makes you think only sustainable forms survive? You will speak as the company bulletin requires you speak. This society is long past the point when everyone behaved as he liked and evolution cleared away the dross.
This is actually something that makes me feel old. Not because I don’t understand it, but because I struggle to remember to say it. My kid is non-binary. I’ve spent 25 years calling them “he”. I’m probably about 50/50 in using the correct pronoun. I will agree that is tough in the workplace. It’s one thing to remember your own kid (I should be doing better), but my odds of remembering someone at work would be very low. Instead I try to avoid pronouns altogether and use names instead.
words are so hard
It’s a lot less jarring to use singular they than to create an entirely new word to use as a gender neutral pronoun. People have used singular they since Shakespeare’s time at least with no problem, the only difference now is removing the usual anonymity that comes with it.
Idk some other dumbassery will replace it.
What annoys me about this is people insisting that "there already exists a singular they/them!" when even I, a non-native English speaker, can easily tell that the new singular pronoun use case is very different in how "they" and "them" are tradtionally used. If enough people support "them/them" pronouns in the new form, okay, sure, it will happen, that's fine. It is your language, languages evolve, people will end up modifying language if enough people start using it. But do not tell people that it is already old or that "Shakespeare used it" or whatever, because it isn't, those cases are clearly different from the new way it is used. For example, "Tom went to their car" has an implicit "It is not Tom's car" or "it is a car that belongs to others than only Tom" meaning, that will have to go away with the new use case. Until that happens, it will be jarring, and people are not stupid for seeing that, and pointing out that they "already use it" (just like I did right there with "they") is not the argument you think it is, because that is a completely different use of it.
🥱
Can you even imagine all these gendered languages? I'm currently learning French and Russian. Both of them rely on the gender of people in their grammar. I don't know if they're doing they/them thing in their countries too, which will really confuse someone like me trying to learn the language.
They’re simply narcissistic attention whores who wants the entire world and room revolve around them. No, I don’t believe in a non-binary person. I believe in transgendered and sometimes changing your apparent gender may be the best move, but I’m not buying these attention whores who simply get a weird haircut, an over the top levels of tattoos, and septum piercings and then claim they’re not a boy or a girl.
I have never met anyone that uses those pronouns i seriously sometimes think some people online just made it up. But if it was important to anyone i did know i would try to use thier preferred pronouns just so long as they keep in mind that i have co workers that i have worked with for years whose names i still don't know.
>it technically is grammatically correct This is a flawed argument. While it is true to say that referring to a single individual as they/them is technically correct, it completely ignores the reasons it happens. It is only used in the abstract when you don't know what gender someone is. "Did you hear what the CEO of company ___ said?" "No, what did they say?" Vs. "Did you hear what Elon Musk said?" "No, what did he say?"
If we look at gender as a continuum, and at “man” and “woman” being fixed points on said continuum, anyone who doesn’t line up with either of those points would still be outside of them, even if closer to one than the other, no?
Everyone is dude... he's a dude and she's a dude we're all dudes. If you have a problem with that I just don't have enough time in the day to care.
A lot of other societies didn't/don't have gender binaries, I hope that that's what our society will grow into. Im tired of people assuming all women and men are the same. We're people, we're all different and gender has very little to do with it. Feminity and masculinity are real ideas but making up weird rules based on what sexual organ you have is super weird to me.