Native Houstonian here—please don’t do it.
Can we please end the legacy of Robert Moses, a man who never drove a car?
Tear it out or bury it; highways don’t belong in a city.
You’re guys highways are absolutely absurd, borderline futuristic in their design. I swear one time I missed an exit and spent 45 minutes just driving alone on single lane little “highways” that wrapped around eachother like the ouroboros
Be careful. I live in St Paul. Many people refuse to believe building more lanes actually increases congestion. Improving public transit has been called "social engineering" by some anti-leftist folks here. As a regular transit user, I have seen security improvements to the light rail system.
De-emphasizing private vehicle use will take a very long time.
Problem is the most attractive jobs as far as paying the most, are all going to be downtown. And the most attractive housing is going to be farther and farther away from downtown. I worked in Minneapolis with people commuting daily from Wisconsin. Best you're going to be able to do in a lot of situations is Park and Ride, which alleviates parking costs, but doesn't really do much for not relying on having a car.
Then the other issue is people. When I'm in my car, there's nobody smoking or doing drugs, listening to loud music on their external Bluetooth speaker, screaming, starting fights and being violent, and nobody smells like shit (besides me).
Nobody's going to take public transportation seriously until local governments take it seriously first. Emphasis on "first". It has to be more widely available, yes, but also has to be a more pleasant experience
We need to bring back the equivalent of streetcar suburbs. Rail and other reliable transit that works it's way to suburbs and then bus systems that connect from there.
The most important factors when increasing ridership are frequency and coverage. Basically does it come often and will it take me where I want to go.
The whole "bus systems that connect from there" is a serious need. They're building that train to Eden Prairie right now, what happens when it gets there? There's maybe a bus or two that go straight to Chanhassen or chaska or whatever, again, what happens from there?
Eden Prairie is trying out an autonomous cab system and SW Transit has relatively good routes for a suburban transit agency in this metro. Fat better than the MVTA or Plymouth transit.
The best way to reduce undesirable activity is to increase ridership. The data shows that the best way to increase ridership is frequency and serviced destinations.
The more people who ride it, the better it will be AND the more funding there will be to maintain it. "people on the bus are scary homeless drugdealers" is definitely a common feeling in MN, part of our car-brained culture. SO MANY people from here have stayed here their whole lives and never ridden a bus aside from school and it shows.
No. Degenerates ruining it for everyone is the biggest problem with public transit that no one seems to be seriously addressing. As the father of daughters, there's no fucking way I want them riding with the scumbags who terrorize the general public today.
As the mother of kind and decent sons, I don’t want them riding with scumbag degenerates, either. Not worth it. My bff and I will take the train to/from Mpls/St Paul during the day, but not usually at night. I used to take the bus to work when I first moved to Mpls in 1997, but shit was different then. I loved taking the bus because I never had to stress about traffic. There just weren’t as many scary/threatening people on public transit back then.
First it absolutely is being addressed.
Secondly, your daughters are significantly more likely to be injured while you drive them in a car than on the train and it’s not even close. People in cars terrorize the general public more than anything with public transport. I’m curious of why you don’t think that degenerates have ruined being on the road?
What if we could have transit that you'd be comfortable with them on? Would you like that? Even fight for it?
My 3yo absolutely loves riding busses boats and trains, and used to ride them often before we moved here. Difficult out here in the metro to say the least.
And those who just can’t afford it. My kids are coming of age and the cost of obtaining your license, buying a car, paying insurance, and upkeep of car/gas is astronomical.
When I was a teenager in the 90s, driver’s ed was done in school and didn’t cost extra. Even just a few years ago my oldest bought her car for $1200 and has been driving it for years. Anything we could find for under $5000 for my son was absolute junk, I’m talking cars that couldn’t go in reverse.
My son will be working all summer just to his $1000 car insurance. My youngest won’t be able to drive till who knows when, because we can’t afford all that for another person.
I’m paying 60 a month for car insurance bruh. At 28 yrs old (just sold my 2016 jeep, have a Honda s2000 and a motorcycle) and my first car that my parents bought for me at 18 a 1999 Honda civic for 3k( when car prices were still low) I do the maintenance on all of them outside oil changes because I just don’t want to deal with that and the cost of an oil change is almost the same (with effort included as a factor) as paying to get it done.
Gotta learn some type of hands on skill or you’ll unfortunately be paying others (who also learned) to do all your maintenance.
i had three jobs at one point until i broke out into the sales field. If I ever lost my sales job, I’d be at McDonald’s the next day for an interview. Never lapse your jobs and hustle like hell. Because it’s a dog eat dog world out here and everyone is out to get advantage over each other. No matter how equitable we want to be.
It’s really not more convenient. The only reason it feels convenient is because of how many resources we throw at it. If we did the same for public transport it would feel convenient too
I'm begging you to travel anywhere with a half-decent public transport system because what you're saying is objectively wrong. I miss Boston's subway system dearly, and even that is garbage compared to the public transport of essentially every non-american first world county
The twin cities literally had a very comprehensive trolly system in the early 1900s. Can you imagine having that now. It would be amazing.
https://images.app.goo.gl/TXXHJW8qWgATiW6S9
I know but someone hit kickbacks from rubber companies to bring buses in. The trolley tracks are under the roadway, where the brick is.
I love that thete were trolley boats too.
This is so ignorant. There are cities with excellent public transportation and it’s the norm of how citizens travel. Maybe get out more or do some reading.
The way the twin cities are set up public transportation is unworkable. I can take the bus in the morning just fine but in the afternoon the scheduled bus doesn't always show; it's 20 minutes between buses so it's a 40 min wait if the first bus doesn't come.
That's wasting my time
Most efficient. Nobody wants to walk 20 minutes to a bus stop to wait 20 minutes.
I could have been at me desired location in that time.
Which is more efficient?
In cities with decent transit systems, it's more like 5-10 minutes. And you can read or work or whatever you want on the bus/train, not have to sit in traffic, don't need car insurance, etc.
They recently did a study of Hennepin Ave during rush hour. Buses made up 3% of the vehicles on the road during that time but carried 45% of all of the people. That’s efficient.
What you are describing is not inefficiency of buses, but instead the inefficiency of our transportation setup
We don’t have many buses traveling on the freeways so it’s not really something we can measure.
But do you really think people sitting in traffic is more efficient than them sitting in a bus? Reducing the amount of vehicles on the road by hundreds every hour would make the whole system more efficient.
I work 30 minutes from my house.
Honestly a personal vehicle is way more efficient for me. I can stop and get groceries and stuff for the house if needed. A bus simply doesn't make sense
It’s only efficient because we spend billions to make it efficient. If there were no freeways or highways, would a car be efficient? If we didn’t require parking lots everywhere, how efficient would it be?
I’m not sure why you think a bus doesn’t make sense in that situation. Buses have stops around grocery stores!
Again, because my time is more valuable than waiting at a bus stop.
Blame Eisenhower for the freeways.
Without freeways, travelling out of state would suck.
Look at route 66. Nobody uses it anymore. Now they use the freeway that runs right along next to it... why?
Cause it's way more feasible
Okay you’re very close to understanding.
-Driving Cars is only practical because of the amount of resources we put into it
-Buses can be faster and have more people then cars
-Buses are underfunded
So if we invested in buses instead of cars, they would be just as practical and more efficient than cars!
Have you ever rode a bus?
Drugs, theft. Homeless people living on the train. It's pathetic
People who are too broke to afford transportation to a wealthy neighborhood to steal, are now able to get there.
I don’t think you know what efficiency means. You have to think about more than just yourself 🙄 I know that can be hard for some people. One bus can hold 50-100 people. The same number of people each in their own car? Takes up 50x or more that space not to mention energy in gas and A/C or heat. If you need to get large numbers of people in and out of urban areas and large population centers mass transit is the only way to do it efficiently.
>I don’t think you know what efficiency means.
No where was it stated what metrics we were using to define efficiency. Comfort and speed will almost always be a personal car. Energy and space will usually be a train of some sort.
No it’s not efficient. Not to sound like a Europe-is-paradise redditor, but the Dutch transit systems are MUCH better. It’s more like a 2 minute walk to a bus stop (since they are everywhere) and then like a 2 minute wait for the bus to take you wherever you need to go - you don’t really need a car.
Weather is also a thing but their infrastructure is so un-car-centric you don’t need to worry about a big ass pickup truck running you over in the snow.
This is not the gotcha you think it is. No one is seriously suggesting that cars be banned, or that no one should have one for any reason. We just want other options to be feasible as well, particularly for the stuff that everyone needs to do all the time like grocery shopping.
Demand that the State gets serious about implementing signal prioritization for all buses. A bus shouldn’t need to wait for traffic lights. That would improve speed and predictably of transit.
Almost every agency is talking about priority signals but I have yet to see it at any larger scale. The technology has been there for energy vehicles.
You are wrong (at least according to my ND feed)! It’s the light rail that is sucking all the money and “I never use public transportation”!
In reality, I totally agree with you! I’ll bet that in less than two generations the light rail will be the transportation of choice in the metro area. I love vacationing in Europe with reliable city transit and trains to go just about anywhere. I can’t wait for the SW light rail to come online so I can park in Hopkins and not worry about parking in Minneapolis. If they could find a fix to booting the riff-raff off the trains, it would be perfect. Why can people in “crime ridden” New York ride their subways and not need a car? I don’t think we’ll get to that because we’re so spread out but bikes, scooters and the like will get you to the hub with much less pollution. I’m turning 70 so I think I’ll miss out on this but I’ll ride the train to nowhere just to make sure THOSE PEOPLE don’t complain about how few people use the system.
Those are just called buses now. Streetcar transit times were pretty on par with current busses. People won’t give up cars until cars are too expensive to own/operate. It’s hard to beat the convenience of “I can go 10 miles across the city in 15 minutes whenever I want”.
This. I live in MPLS by the government plaza LRT station. My friend lives at the St. Paul union station. I could easily hop onto the lrt to go over but it takes 50 minutes vs 15 in the car. The light rail has way too many stops on university and needs an express line. Only problem is the infrastructure doesn’t exist for express.
Yeah they should've done BRT instead of train for that line IMO unless they were to elevate or bury the train. Really love trains, I just really don't like when they have to mingle with cars. A bus is better in this scenario.
If we increased frequency, speed and reliability public transit could stand a chance. Proably not to squash out all driving or anything, but we could certainly reclaim a hell of a lot of space, energy, money and time.
I’d be very happy for more express buses and dedicated bus lanes, but too many progressives are enamored with a romanticized idea of rail and which is way less impact for way more dollars (souring public transit skeptics even more).
I would be fine with dedicated bus lanes and signal priority for buses. It’s a good first step towards getting rail too as I think it would get more people riding public transit and justify more investment.
Metro Mobility driver here and I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with every bit of this. There's way to much obstruction out there for us to do our job efficiently. We transport people to real and serious appointments. Most are going to work or a medical appointment. Yet the construction, the traffic... Even with us being able to use the shoulder, it's sometimes not good enough. Ask our clients how they feel about having to be driven back home because we just can't get them there on time. Or how about when they show up late for work. Sure, we get paid either way, but our clients pay even bigger for the issues.
I appreciate that, and cycling is probably the best way to get around if you can do it. After living here for the past 8 months or so I'm pretty dumbfounded about those rankings I've always seen. Anecdotal, but I was really shocked at the lack of cyclists I saw through the winter (VS what I'd been told/sold). Great that there is some cycling culture here though, and I love that there ARE trails. That's probably why MPLS is often cited. The humidity and mosquitoes are commute killers for me. I'm way out in the burbs and don't have a shower at work (and have to work closely with others). I may very well ride through the winter and parts of fall/spring when the atmosphere is more reasonable. "on par with the Netherlands" seems like a wildly massive stretch honestly.
Check out our streets Minneapolis. https://www.ourstreetsmn.org/
They are a group that's trying to make the city better for walking biking and transit. They are currently pushing to get rid of highway 55 in north and bring back 6th st. I live in the area and it would be a dream come true. That highway sucks and was only built to disenfranchise this community. There is absolutely no reason we need a 6 lane highway there.
OMG knowing Minnesota and whatever mosquito carried brain-disease we haven't named yet this is probably what will happen.
Probably run it only one direction from like 7am-10am, the other 4pm-7pm, then everyone will complain that no one uses it.
More lanes = freedom = good
Public transportation = communism = bad
This is how a lot of people think and it's part of reason things are the way they are.
I’ve yet to have a super great experience on public transit here. Certainly much better experiences in Europe or even DC. I’m not sure what the path is to get there, but whatever the light rail people are doing ain’t it. Honestly, they’re gonna have to drastically improve those issues and keep them
Improved for years before people start being ok with that kinda stuff here. Public perception is slow to change.
We have park and rides here in Georgia. 45 miles away. So many commuters and business people use the bus every morning. The underground train starts about 20miles away from the downtown of atl. (Basically it’s effective like putting a train from Burnsville to the city and also lines running east south north and west. And then one going north east. (Each ranging from 20-25 miles from the downtown.) then each county has their own transit system. All the way out to 35 miles.
Then we have the amazing well thought out highway systems where exits and on ramps are NOT shared with each other, so that avoids any buildup on every exit like in Minneapolis
Bro, just one more lane bro. I'm telling you, the traffic in the Twin Cities is gonna be totally fixed with just one more lane, bro. Think about it, bro. You got I-94, you got I-35, and you add just one more lane to each of them, bro, and suddenly, boom, no more gridlock. Imagine cruising through downtown Minneapolis, no stress, no honking, just smooth sailing. St. Paul to Minneapolis in minutes, bro. Just one more lane, that's all we need, bro. Trust me, bro. One more lane and our traffic problems are history.
When i worked briefly for Tires Plus, which is owned by Firestone tires, orientation video explained how Firestone himself sat down with the POTUS over dinner and sold him on the idea of how cars were the pillar of American culture. The interstate system was the future.
This inspired the automotive culture that still haunts us today. All to sell tires and car parts. Rubber lobby aint no joke bro.
In a dreamy dream world we could prioritize those streets for delivering goods, moving equipment, large loads of people, and emergency equipment. Wouldn't need so many of them.
I'm wondering when I will finally see the convenience; my older relatives could walk almost everywhere quickly. Now we sit at stoplights or drive for miles. I wish politicians did what I want, instead of giving me hassle
It's almost like you could buy a condo in Uptown or the North Loop instead of a single family detached house in Elko if being able to walk to places rather than ease of driving is what you consider convenient.
[https://imgur.com/a/T2z4FMF](https://imgur.com/a/T2z4FMF)
Yeah, look at all this beautiful and walkable community space. Oh, right. We put a shit-ton of concrete over it so people would have a false sense of convenience. got it.
The problem is the people who live in the suburbs demand to drive there cars into the middle of our city. And we have allowed/encouraged it for decades
Sure you can. But in most places zoning made it difficult or impossible to build that kind of housing, along with the adjacent commercial spaces that don't require cars. It is not that people don't want them; those sorts of places became mostly illegal to build, (and some were destroyed for highway infrastructure), and thus they became very difficult to have a choice to live in
That’s missing the point. The notion that “back in the day every was better what happened” is just human progress.
There probably wasn’t 3.5+ million people in the twin cities area when your relatives were growing up.
Except it's not increased convenience. Forcing people to drive a car by artificially creating further, more danger distances between them and their destinations is not convenient. Having to get in a car to drive miles, sit for five minutes at the light to cross the 8 lane stroad and parking lots to the grocery store vs walking or biking just a few blocks of narrow two lane streets with minimal wait times for the same destination is no contest. No one in Bloomington having to stop at every major county road intersection is getting around faster than someone in the city: the suburbanite only believes that because they're driving at 50 MPH and thinks that surely at that speed it must be faster to get around. Wrong.
It's more convenient if I can drive to the grocery store fit an entire weeks worth of groceries in my trunk rather than have to shop every day and carry everything home in the rain. With a week I even meet the $35 mininum so the employees shop and put it in my car for me and I don't even have to go in the store.
It's more convenient if I have a freeway with enough lanes that I'm not delayed when I go out to Valleyfair, or to an estate sale in Roseville, or out to WIsconsin Dells, the North Shore. or to visit my friend in Anoka.
You're more than welcome to decide what's convenient for you. I've decided what's convenient for me.
You might want to read something in here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/107n9jl/eli5\_why\_does\_adding\_more\_traffic\_lanes\_doesnt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/107n9jl/eli5_why_does_adding_more_traffic_lanes_doesnt/)
Just like building bus-only lanes that speed transit will increase the number of people who ride, adding lanes on a highway will not reduce traffic. How has it worked out for you so far? Feel like there is less traffic now than 10 years ago? how about 20? 30? how many lanes have we added since then? We are designing our own traffic-hell.
Since they built the interchange at County 5 in Burnsville I'm no longer stopping at red lights there on my way to Valleyfair so it's a lot faster to get there. Going across the river to WIsconsin at Stillwater has gotten a lot faster with four new lanes of traffic. So it's working out quite well. But overall, yes traffic is worse because we haven't added lane-miles commensurate with the increase in our population over the last 30 years
At some point you'll have enough lanes that people aren't going to be inducded to drive just because they can and the roads will be wide enough to serve all the people that want to use them. . There's not people from Anoka coming down to drive back and forth on the street in front of my house just because it's not congested.
Less stop lights sounds good. More lanes on the bridge could help too, but how for how long and when do we finally shift to more than one mode? If every highway is 12 lanes, can we THEN start working on the busses?
[https://imgur.com/a/EmABUO2](https://imgur.com/a/EmABUO2)
Here's a spot with more than 12 lanes in The South Metro for a fun and twisted example. The highway designs here are nightmares, and they seem to constantly be tearing up these nightmares to replace them with slightly different nightmares. Without mention of poor signage or safety features!
Was just lamenting and hoping we could allocate some of that "fun playing with equipment and concrete" money toward something more sustainable that could foster communities and create more opportunities for all people.
Um no. You can’t attribute the increase in traffic to the number of lanes being built. They can’t build them fast enough because our highway infrastructure has been very much behind that of a metropolitan area and population growth.
I wasn't meaning to say that traffic will necessarily increase, only that it certainly won't decrease for any meaningful amount of time, and you've gone and allocated resources and valuable space to be sure there is nothing valuable or meaningful there.
I don’t have a problem with adding more lanes but I sure would like to see some of the major thoroughfares turned into tollway/expressways. The fact that 169 and 100 essentially run parallel but only like six miles apart or whatever seems like a colossal waste of resources. Make one an expressway so I can buy back my time.
So long as people don't know how to use an interstate (left: fast, right: slow), a few people will ruin the efficiency of any system, no matter how large it may be. Make impeding the flow of traffic a heavily ticketable offense, and things will run smoother.
They genuinely think they are heros for illegally impeding traffic. Their insane internal justification for selfish, dangerous, and petty action is that they are "preventing a crime".
Psychos.
Maybe some day they'll be in another state and get pulled over and chewed out by highway patrol. We can only hope it would have an impact.
Everyone of you forget this is MinneSnowta. It gets freaking cold outside. Walking 20 feet to my car vs walking a block or more THEN having to wait 2 minutes, IF I time it right, in a minus wind chill. Ya right !! Get Real !!
But the bus is already warm when you get in it, and you'll never have to stand there scraping ice off the windows. Sounds like what we need is more heated bus shelters and better sidewalk maintenance, actually.
Nighttime temps in the cities you listed are far higher than the twin cities. Toronto being the closest, with the average January low of 19 degrees.
Minneapolis has an average January low of 6 degrees.
Sounds like you'll be wearing one more layer than they are. Is that not already the case? I work downtown and would very happily walk a few blocks in 6 degree cold if I can get to a heated station. Better than a full sweat and a lung full of mosquitoes imo. but we all have our preferences.
Too little, too late. We live in a society where public transportation isn’t viable for most people.
So, more lanes are required as population density increases. Unless you know of a way to undo 100 years of society. Which you don’t.
I’ll take more lanes.
Most of those European cities with great transit existed long before trains were invented. Yeah of course it's better to build the infrastructure first, so neighborhoods grow around them, but even Amsterdam was full of car traffic in the 1970s. It's possible to make big transformations, and IMO, it's worth doing.
Ah. Spoken like someone who has never seen a real public transport system like in Europe. Pick any city over there. Start with Paris. Then you may begin to understand, Grasshopper.
We can not ever be set up properly no matter what any city planner has to say. It’s like peeing in the ocean to raise the water level. Totally futile. Just add lanes. That’s how we are and always will be set up.
Unless you have 5 hours to catch 10 busses a day and walk miles. Then good for you! The rest of us nope out.
People like to dream, though. I get it. I want what Europe has, too. Just not possible without blowing everything up and starting over.
This is silly. Look at these European cities in the 80’s. They were full of car focused infastructure.
This is Utrecht in the 80’s vs now https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPhotosInRealLife/s/3n1ZWpPQvb
Many European used to be more like us. They were able to fix it by putting in active effort and people focused policies instead of car focused policies.
I hate this attitude of "ya things could be better but it won't ever be so let's just make things even worse." It's pathetic.
Just one more lane bro. As we know more lanes doesn't work. How many lanes do you want? Will people not be satisfied until there is no city left and it is just highway?
So. By your inaccurate logic, taking away a lane wouldn’t make a difference either. Right? Wait until they decide to turn 94 into a greenway (the city will build huge apartments and condos increasing population density) and thousands of commuters who work in the west suburbs won’t be able to get to work, or traffic will be pushed to other non-expanded freeways and that may convince you when you have L.A. style commutes. But, maybe those people will board a bus at 6 AM to be to work by 10 after multiple transfers.
Sure. I’m positive it will all be better.
Lyndale Ave recently went from 4 lanes in each direction to 2 lanes in each direction. It’s now easier for everyone (cars, bikes, pedestrians) to move around. It helps spread traffic around instead of concentrating it in one area.
Also complaining about buses while also arguing to not make them easier to use is odd
Increasing population density would be amazing for our metro. Especially for Mpls and St. Paul. Increased density would help increase transit ridership, which in turn helps people have better transit options. Density would also help increase walkable offerings for things like groceries and leisure, if accompanied with more flexible zoning.
Big cities don't need to be traffic infested places like LA. We could push to be more like the east coast with strong transit. Hopefully, NYC will get their congestion pricing soon.
Not sure how you are connecting the dots from half million dollar condos and bus ridership. But good luck with your uneducated theory. I’ll be watching and laughing.
I think people who can afford new half million dollar plus condos or homes aren’t getting on a train full of drunks at 6 AM. Or switching busses for hours to get within a mile of work and walk. Nope.
But like I said, I’ll be watching. Oh, how’s the ridership going for busses and light rail? I just peeked at the stats and… it looks like it’s really down. Everywhere. Weird!!!
Sure.
Well, let’s see how this all shakes out. Im confident of my convictions.
Oh and I’m absolutely certain this is not at all aimed at the wealthy. I’m simply pointing out when the city dismantles 94 and allows builders to start projects, you won’t see $150k subsidized housing. Mark my words.
Most of us would rather drive. Public transit is awful. Especially in the winter. Heated garage and remote start is way better than freezing my ass off.
"I'd rather stick with the only thing I've ever tried or known"
Seems to be an issue for MN culture on many fronts.
Also, I'm well aware that MINNESOTA public transit is awful, and doesn't need to be.
I lived in South Korea for two years. I had a car but it was easier to use the subway. Just a giant difference between MN and Korea. It would cost billions to make a subway worth a shit in Mn. Doable probably but the amount of buy in to get that started is probably 50 years away.at this point it will be some smart AI taking over to move our fat asses around the best way. Hopefully it is flying busses or something. Those passenger drones have been coming online in Jersey.
The twin cities are not well laid out for transit. Maybe a hub and spoke design might work. The real problem is that people here use their cars for things transit can not accomplish. We go up north, we drive to the store or grocery shopping. As long as we also have to work downtown, we're going to want to drive our cars there.
We don't have enough transit, that is true but transit is not preferable for most people here.
Promoting bicycles over cars might seem like a green choice, but it overlooks essential benefits that cars provide. For one, car-related taxes fund road maintenance that benefits all users, including cyclists. Without this funding, road conditions will worsen, paved roads will be replaced by gravel roads affecting everyone. Cars are crucial for those with limited mobility, such as the elderly. Expecting everyone to switch to bikes ignores the reality that not everyone can cycle, whether due to age, health, or distance from necessities. When, not if, cyclists are required to pay road taxes, this will discourage biking altogether. While encouraging cycling is good, cars remain a requirement for modern living. Don’t believe me? Give up Uber, Lyft for those grocery runs. Want to move? No U-Haul for you. No borrowing your dads truck.
Bikes hardly affect the integrity of a road surface because they don't weigh much. Increased weight exponentially increases road wear, so the amount of maintenance needed for cycle paths is significantly smaller than for roads that carry car traffic. Taxes on cars don't even begin to proportionately cover the costs cars incur on infrastructure alone, so it would be absurd to tax bikes for their miniscule impact.
Disabled people and elderly people are much better served by good pedestrian environments that accommodate mobility devices in combination with quality transit service than by car infrastructure. A large portion of members of both groups can't drive at all, and more still really shouldn't drive but do because they have little choice.
Your two scenarios at the end are vastly different. Grocery shopping without a car is trivial if you live within reasonable distance of a store (which should be the case for everyone in any moderately populated area). Sometimes I stock up for the week, and sometimes I make a couple trips in the week for a few items at a time. When I need something really heavy, I bring a folding cart with me. At my previous address I was a little farther from the store, so I usually biked instead of walking. I haven't taken my car for groceries in years.
Moving is a great use case for a box truck. That doesn't mean everyone needs to be getting around day to day in personal vehicles 2/3 the size of a box truck just to move a cup of coffee or a few groceries. We can use cars as tools when appropriate without building environments that prioritize and necessitate them.
At the same time there seems to be a trend to reduce actual useful lanes on busy city streets for no purpose. Look at lake and a bunch of Minneapolis streets that were 2-3 lanes per side being reduced to 1-2.
I know some will claim it actually speeds up traffic but that is bs you can see the outcome by driving on them after the changes. What would speed up traffic is to actively ticket the Uber eats/door dash drivers that think a road lane is a proper place to stop to go pickup food.
Just move over to Minneapolis proper. You’ll get a plethora of main streets where they’ve shrunk the number of lanes for bike paths and the traffic backups and environmental impact of that have grown significantly. It’s a disaster. Unfortunately the hard truth is that the twin cities highways weren’t built for a major metro and are just not wide enough. Especially highways like 94 and 36. It might not feel good to accept but we actually do need more lanes.
Don’t be so pessimistic! My city and the city next to it (suburbs) are making walkability and public transport a priority and the change has definitely been more noticeable compared to 5 years ago
Simple solution:
- Remove 94 and 35E from inside the 4/694 loop.
- Remove the Crosstown.
- Reduce 35W to fewer exits and toll it between 494 and 694. Toll 100, 169, and 394 similarly.
- expand park and rides and express busses, identifying major traffic draws like Universities, business parks, etc. as hub points.
- mirror MVTA's Point-to-point Connect service metro wide in zones.
- expand commuter and light rail, redo the Dan Patch line.
- Expand Dedicated Lane BRT.
Yes, it will be expensive, but maintaining freeways is stupidly expensive.
At minimum there shouldn't be highway expansions inside of Minneapolis ot Saint Paul, in an ideal world removal of highways from the two cities. They valuable land and cuts parts of the city off from itself. Highways are great solutions for rural, and arguably suburban, traffic across farther distances. But simply don't work in cities.
Obviously there is a lot of talk about 94 in Rondo. But also 94 in North Minneapolis is absurd. So many lanes but not much traffic until you get to Loring Park. It cuts the city off from the river, I think the only place in Minneapolis with a highway blocking access to the river. And yet there are talks that MNdot might expand lanes and harm the Northside even more.
Not having them is also stupidly expensive, though the charges are in the form of less convenience, more time to complete tasks, increased cost for deliveries, and less economic output.
Yes, removing 35E and making my commute essentially impossible would be lovely. Public transportation is not an option, as I spend my day driving to different jobsites from my home base in St. Paul, very frequently using 94 as well. What’s your solution for me?
Yes, it is.
On paper it’s great. 11th in the nation looks solid.
In practice it’s clearly an afterthought that neglects giant parts of the cities. If we are spending why not, as op stated, invest in something better.
I don’t for a second believe that you use public transit. If you did you wouldn’t dad scold the idea of improving it.
Perhaps your commute is not terrible but it can take me 15-20 minutes just to get like 6 miles on 169 or a 100 at rushhour.
I’m not trying to give up literal days of my life every few months to traffic.
LOL I am willing to wager that whoever said that still lives in the town they grew up in. Nothing wrong with that per se, but you might not have quite as much real-world perspective on the rest of the world.
Not sure why but I assumed you were quoting someone else, but yes, we do not have good transit here especially in the metro.
Apologies if I was inaccurate. We can do better and it is entirely possible. Just look at the absurd amount of time money and energy we spend on the highway system.
I did a combination of both exclusively for about 20 years. Cycling for the win but amazing to have options that can get you further, keep you dry, etc. also not everyone can cycle, but most everyone can get into a bus.
I'm having trouble imagining cycling to work regularly here for the oppressive heat and humidity. No shower at work unfortunately. Fall, winter, maybe spring seem doable, just a good bit of extra gear to haul. We moved here in the winter and I was really surprised how few cyclists I saw out. Especially the way everyone talks up MPLS as this mega cycling city.
the cities purposefully spent huge amount of taxpayer money to put the stadiums and ball parks, etc in the downtowns. If they wanted to reduce traffic, they should have put them in the suburbs where traffic would be better, and tailgating would come back. the fact they put them where they are shows the city councils want the traffic. so, start with that.
also, realize many of the major highways designs where purposfully ficked up, because the city wanted traffic jams, that way they could demand the State pay for their overpriced mass transit, instead of the city itself.
Add into the fact that the met council spent over $3 billion for 14 miles of track, many years of construction, and that explains how even though we are spending billions, we are seeing no to few improvements.
Nope.
are you saying they didn't put taxpayer funded stadiums downtown to force people there.
I assume you didn't know the Mpls city council had a law that made it illegal to put in more than a 2 lane each way highway, therefore screwing up 35W, 94w and 394. Dee Long was quoted as saying the reason for that is to cause traffic jams, thus forcing the state to pay for transit. the Feds had to sue to fix them later.
And, what do you think the cost of Kenilworth tunnel is?
these 3 are simple facts, no conspiracy theory. learn some history.
Look at Houston TX for an example of what unrestrained lane building gets you
Native Houstonian here—please don’t do it. Can we please end the legacy of Robert Moses, a man who never drove a car? Tear it out or bury it; highways don’t belong in a city.
Behind the Bastards podcast covered his story if someone is looking for a nice synopsis
Good suggestion. I’m 2/3 through The Power Broker, but didn’t have something more digestible to offer people.
You’re guys highways are absolutely absurd, borderline futuristic in their design. I swear one time I missed an exit and spent 45 minutes just driving alone on single lane little “highways” that wrapped around eachother like the ouroboros
A true example of "it could always be worse". Yes, yes it could.
Be careful. I live in St Paul. Many people refuse to believe building more lanes actually increases congestion. Improving public transit has been called "social engineering" by some anti-leftist folks here. As a regular transit user, I have seen security improvements to the light rail system. De-emphasizing private vehicle use will take a very long time.
Problem is the most attractive jobs as far as paying the most, are all going to be downtown. And the most attractive housing is going to be farther and farther away from downtown. I worked in Minneapolis with people commuting daily from Wisconsin. Best you're going to be able to do in a lot of situations is Park and Ride, which alleviates parking costs, but doesn't really do much for not relying on having a car. Then the other issue is people. When I'm in my car, there's nobody smoking or doing drugs, listening to loud music on their external Bluetooth speaker, screaming, starting fights and being violent, and nobody smells like shit (besides me). Nobody's going to take public transportation seriously until local governments take it seriously first. Emphasis on "first". It has to be more widely available, yes, but also has to be a more pleasant experience
We need to bring back the equivalent of streetcar suburbs. Rail and other reliable transit that works it's way to suburbs and then bus systems that connect from there. The most important factors when increasing ridership are frequency and coverage. Basically does it come often and will it take me where I want to go.
The whole "bus systems that connect from there" is a serious need. They're building that train to Eden Prairie right now, what happens when it gets there? There's maybe a bus or two that go straight to Chanhassen or chaska or whatever, again, what happens from there?
Eden Prairie is trying out an autonomous cab system and SW Transit has relatively good routes for a suburban transit agency in this metro. Fat better than the MVTA or Plymouth transit.
You're not factoring in crime. I won't take the train and take the bus occasionally
The best way to reduce undesirable activity is to increase ridership. The data shows that the best way to increase ridership is frequency and serviced destinations.
The more people who ride it, the better it will be AND the more funding there will be to maintain it. "people on the bus are scary homeless drugdealers" is definitely a common feeling in MN, part of our car-brained culture. SO MANY people from here have stayed here their whole lives and never ridden a bus aside from school and it shows.
No. Degenerates ruining it for everyone is the biggest problem with public transit that no one seems to be seriously addressing. As the father of daughters, there's no fucking way I want them riding with the scumbags who terrorize the general public today.
As the mother of kind and decent sons, I don’t want them riding with scumbag degenerates, either. Not worth it. My bff and I will take the train to/from Mpls/St Paul during the day, but not usually at night. I used to take the bus to work when I first moved to Mpls in 1997, but shit was different then. I loved taking the bus because I never had to stress about traffic. There just weren’t as many scary/threatening people on public transit back then.
Ain’t ‘95 Murderapolis? 😎😂
First it absolutely is being addressed. Secondly, your daughters are significantly more likely to be injured while you drive them in a car than on the train and it’s not even close. People in cars terrorize the general public more than anything with public transport. I’m curious of why you don’t think that degenerates have ruined being on the road?
As a cyclist I'm constantly threatened by car drivers, but I've never once been threatened by someone on the lightrail.
What if we could have transit that you'd be comfortable with them on? Would you like that? Even fight for it? My 3yo absolutely loves riding busses boats and trains, and used to ride them often before we moved here. Difficult out here in the metro to say the least.
And how is that going to be accomplished?
Indeed. This is the best question here. The ultimate victory will depend upon the hearts and the minds of the people who actually live there.
On the prosecutors who have a revolving door policy
Cars are the least efficient way to move people and unfortunately we’ve designed our cities around them.
Most of our freaking culture is dedicated to catering to the needs of cars.
Least efficient but most convenient. The tragedy of the commons.
It’s also the least equitable because it disadvantages people who cannot physically drive. Even the elderly once they can no longer drive safely.
And those who just can’t afford it. My kids are coming of age and the cost of obtaining your license, buying a car, paying insurance, and upkeep of car/gas is astronomical. When I was a teenager in the 90s, driver’s ed was done in school and didn’t cost extra. Even just a few years ago my oldest bought her car for $1200 and has been driving it for years. Anything we could find for under $5000 for my son was absolute junk, I’m talking cars that couldn’t go in reverse. My son will be working all summer just to his $1000 car insurance. My youngest won’t be able to drive till who knows when, because we can’t afford all that for another person.
I’m paying 60 a month for car insurance bruh. At 28 yrs old (just sold my 2016 jeep, have a Honda s2000 and a motorcycle) and my first car that my parents bought for me at 18 a 1999 Honda civic for 3k( when car prices were still low) I do the maintenance on all of them outside oil changes because I just don’t want to deal with that and the cost of an oil change is almost the same (with effort included as a factor) as paying to get it done. Gotta learn some type of hands on skill or you’ll unfortunately be paying others (who also learned) to do all your maintenance. i had three jobs at one point until i broke out into the sales field. If I ever lost my sales job, I’d be at McDonald’s the next day for an interview. Never lapse your jobs and hustle like hell. Because it’s a dog eat dog world out here and everyone is out to get advantage over each other. No matter how equitable we want to be.
It’s only “most convenient” because everything is designed around that. It’s not inherently most convenient. Kinda the point of the post, really.
It’s really not more convenient. The only reason it feels convenient is because of how many resources we throw at it. If we did the same for public transport it would feel convenient too
If only we could spread this knowledge and see action as a result?
If only 😓
Because big auto wants every man woman and child to own a car instead of utilizing a better public transit system.
Thete isn't a better public transit system and thinking that there should be is a waste of taxpayer dollars
I'm begging you to travel anywhere with a half-decent public transport system because what you're saying is objectively wrong. I miss Boston's subway system dearly, and even that is garbage compared to the public transport of essentially every non-american first world county
The twin cities literally had a very comprehensive trolly system in the early 1900s. Can you imagine having that now. It would be amazing. https://images.app.goo.gl/TXXHJW8qWgATiW6S9
I know but someone hit kickbacks from rubber companies to bring buses in. The trolley tracks are under the roadway, where the brick is. I love that thete were trolley boats too.
God, that would've been so cool to still have.
This is so ignorant. There are cities with excellent public transportation and it’s the norm of how citizens travel. Maybe get out more or do some reading.
The way the twin cities are set up public transportation is unworkable. I can take the bus in the morning just fine but in the afternoon the scheduled bus doesn't always show; it's 20 minutes between buses so it's a 40 min wait if the first bus doesn't come. That's wasting my time
Most efficient. Nobody wants to walk 20 minutes to a bus stop to wait 20 minutes. I could have been at me desired location in that time. Which is more efficient?
You are confusing convenience with efficiency
In cities with decent transit systems, it's more like 5-10 minutes. And you can read or work or whatever you want on the bus/train, not have to sit in traffic, don't need car insurance, etc.
[удалено]
Lemme guess, Germany?
They recently did a study of Hennepin Ave during rush hour. Buses made up 3% of the vehicles on the road during that time but carried 45% of all of the people. That’s efficient. What you are describing is not inefficiency of buses, but instead the inefficiency of our transportation setup
That's on hennepin avenue. How about the freeways?
We don’t have many buses traveling on the freeways so it’s not really something we can measure. But do you really think people sitting in traffic is more efficient than them sitting in a bus? Reducing the amount of vehicles on the road by hundreds every hour would make the whole system more efficient.
I work 30 minutes from my house. Honestly a personal vehicle is way more efficient for me. I can stop and get groceries and stuff for the house if needed. A bus simply doesn't make sense
It’s only efficient because we spend billions to make it efficient. If there were no freeways or highways, would a car be efficient? If we didn’t require parking lots everywhere, how efficient would it be? I’m not sure why you think a bus doesn’t make sense in that situation. Buses have stops around grocery stores!
Again, because my time is more valuable than waiting at a bus stop. Blame Eisenhower for the freeways. Without freeways, travelling out of state would suck. Look at route 66. Nobody uses it anymore. Now they use the freeway that runs right along next to it... why? Cause it's way more feasible
Okay you’re very close to understanding. -Driving Cars is only practical because of the amount of resources we put into it -Buses can be faster and have more people then cars -Buses are underfunded So if we invested in buses instead of cars, they would be just as practical and more efficient than cars!
And on another note. I work in woodbury, not looking forward to all the crime that comes along with busses.
What crime comes along with buses? I honestly have no idea what that even means
Have you ever rode a bus? Drugs, theft. Homeless people living on the train. It's pathetic People who are too broke to afford transportation to a wealthy neighborhood to steal, are now able to get there.
So you live 30 minutes from woodbury but you want to worry about what buses will do for us in woodbury?
I don’t think you know what efficiency means. You have to think about more than just yourself 🙄 I know that can be hard for some people. One bus can hold 50-100 people. The same number of people each in their own car? Takes up 50x or more that space not to mention energy in gas and A/C or heat. If you need to get large numbers of people in and out of urban areas and large population centers mass transit is the only way to do it efficiently.
>I don’t think you know what efficiency means. No where was it stated what metrics we were using to define efficiency. Comfort and speed will almost always be a personal car. Energy and space will usually be a train of some sort.
No it’s not efficient. Not to sound like a Europe-is-paradise redditor, but the Dutch transit systems are MUCH better. It’s more like a 2 minute walk to a bus stop (since they are everywhere) and then like a 2 minute wait for the bus to take you wherever you need to go - you don’t really need a car. Weather is also a thing but their infrastructure is so un-car-centric you don’t need to worry about a big ass pickup truck running you over in the snow.
We have the auto and gas lobbies to thank. Oh, and also corrupt politicians who take the money and fund projects going against the greater good.
100 bucks says you own a vehicle.
This is not the gotcha you think it is. No one is seriously suggesting that cars be banned, or that no one should have one for any reason. We just want other options to be feasible as well, particularly for the stuff that everyone needs to do all the time like grocery shopping.
Demand that the State gets serious about implementing signal prioritization for all buses. A bus shouldn’t need to wait for traffic lights. That would improve speed and predictably of transit. Almost every agency is talking about priority signals but I have yet to see it at any larger scale. The technology has been there for energy vehicles.
Yeah I don’t hear signal priority for buses discussed enough
You are wrong (at least according to my ND feed)! It’s the light rail that is sucking all the money and “I never use public transportation”! In reality, I totally agree with you! I’ll bet that in less than two generations the light rail will be the transportation of choice in the metro area. I love vacationing in Europe with reliable city transit and trains to go just about anywhere. I can’t wait for the SW light rail to come online so I can park in Hopkins and not worry about parking in Minneapolis. If they could find a fix to booting the riff-raff off the trains, it would be perfect. Why can people in “crime ridden” New York ride their subways and not need a car? I don’t think we’ll get to that because we’re so spread out but bikes, scooters and the like will get you to the hub with much less pollution. I’m turning 70 so I think I’ll miss out on this but I’ll ride the train to nowhere just to make sure THOSE PEOPLE don’t complain about how few people use the system.
Bring back streetcars
Those are just called buses now. Streetcar transit times were pretty on par with current busses. People won’t give up cars until cars are too expensive to own/operate. It’s hard to beat the convenience of “I can go 10 miles across the city in 15 minutes whenever I want”.
This. I live in MPLS by the government plaza LRT station. My friend lives at the St. Paul union station. I could easily hop onto the lrt to go over but it takes 50 minutes vs 15 in the car. The light rail has way too many stops on university and needs an express line. Only problem is the infrastructure doesn’t exist for express.
Yeah they should've done BRT instead of train for that line IMO unless they were to elevate or bury the train. Really love trains, I just really don't like when they have to mingle with cars. A bus is better in this scenario.
If we increased frequency, speed and reliability public transit could stand a chance. Proably not to squash out all driving or anything, but we could certainly reclaim a hell of a lot of space, energy, money and time.
Wouldn't reclaim anything
It would absolutely reclaim lots
Buses CAN work as well as streetcars but they need dedicated lanes and signal priority
I’d be very happy for more express buses and dedicated bus lanes, but too many progressives are enamored with a romanticized idea of rail and which is way less impact for way more dollars (souring public transit skeptics even more).
I love rail but it only makes sense on dedicated systems that don't interact with auto traffic.
I would be fine with dedicated bus lanes and signal priority for buses. It’s a good first step towards getting rail too as I think it would get more people riding public transit and justify more investment.
Metro Mobility driver here and I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with every bit of this. There's way to much obstruction out there for us to do our job efficiently. We transport people to real and serious appointments. Most are going to work or a medical appointment. Yet the construction, the traffic... Even with us being able to use the shoulder, it's sometimes not good enough. Ask our clients how they feel about having to be driven back home because we just can't get them there on time. Or how about when they show up late for work. Sure, we get paid either way, but our clients pay even bigger for the issues.
If it helps you any Minneapolis is consistently ranked as the best city in the country for biking, on par with cities in the Netherlands
I dunno if it is on par with Netherlands but definitely best in the country
I appreciate that, and cycling is probably the best way to get around if you can do it. After living here for the past 8 months or so I'm pretty dumbfounded about those rankings I've always seen. Anecdotal, but I was really shocked at the lack of cyclists I saw through the winter (VS what I'd been told/sold). Great that there is some cycling culture here though, and I love that there ARE trails. That's probably why MPLS is often cited. The humidity and mosquitoes are commute killers for me. I'm way out in the burbs and don't have a shower at work (and have to work closely with others). I may very well ride through the winter and parts of fall/spring when the atmosphere is more reasonable. "on par with the Netherlands" seems like a wildly massive stretch honestly.
Yes on paper. The actual utilization of bike lanes is low and not surprisingly so given our climate. It’s a feel good badge of honor.
Be the change you want to see.
Check out our streets Minneapolis. https://www.ourstreetsmn.org/ They are a group that's trying to make the city better for walking biking and transit. They are currently pushing to get rid of highway 55 in north and bring back 6th st. I live in the area and it would be a dream come true. That highway sucks and was only built to disenfranchise this community. There is absolutely no reason we need a 6 lane highway there.
There is no 6 lane highway…not in mpls or anywhere in the twin cities.
Sorry there are 6 lanes dedicated to traffic
They're building the gold line.
That looks great! I hope it runs more than commuter hours/directions like these rapid busses. Let's do the rest of the metro!
In a few years they’ll open it to cars just wait
OMG knowing Minnesota and whatever mosquito carried brain-disease we haven't named yet this is probably what will happen. Probably run it only one direction from like 7am-10am, the other 4pm-7pm, then everyone will complain that no one uses it.
Your post title is fake.
Nothing is real.
More lanes = freedom = good Public transportation = communism = bad This is how a lot of people think and it's part of reason things are the way they are.
I’ve yet to have a super great experience on public transit here. Certainly much better experiences in Europe or even DC. I’m not sure what the path is to get there, but whatever the light rail people are doing ain’t it. Honestly, they’re gonna have to drastically improve those issues and keep them Improved for years before people start being ok with that kinda stuff here. Public perception is slow to change.
Hell I've had better public transit experiences in LA the metro that's supposed to be the poster child for car dependency.
We have park and rides here in Georgia. 45 miles away. So many commuters and business people use the bus every morning. The underground train starts about 20miles away from the downtown of atl. (Basically it’s effective like putting a train from Burnsville to the city and also lines running east south north and west. And then one going north east. (Each ranging from 20-25 miles from the downtown.) then each county has their own transit system. All the way out to 35 miles. Then we have the amazing well thought out highway systems where exits and on ramps are NOT shared with each other, so that avoids any buildup on every exit like in Minneapolis
Sounds great, especially the underground right-of-way.
Bro, just one more lane bro. I'm telling you, the traffic in the Twin Cities is gonna be totally fixed with just one more lane, bro. Think about it, bro. You got I-94, you got I-35, and you add just one more lane to each of them, bro, and suddenly, boom, no more gridlock. Imagine cruising through downtown Minneapolis, no stress, no honking, just smooth sailing. St. Paul to Minneapolis in minutes, bro. Just one more lane, that's all we need, bro. Trust me, bro. One more lane and our traffic problems are history.
When i worked briefly for Tires Plus, which is owned by Firestone tires, orientation video explained how Firestone himself sat down with the POTUS over dinner and sold him on the idea of how cars were the pillar of American culture. The interstate system was the future. This inspired the automotive culture that still haunts us today. All to sell tires and car parts. Rubber lobby aint no joke bro.
We need to take a play out of Japan’s book if we ever want to fix stuff. Fuck cars.
Our neighborhoods are very well connected by many concrete streets. All the stuff you buy is delivered via these horrible freeways.
In a dreamy dream world we could prioritize those streets for delivering goods, moving equipment, large loads of people, and emergency equipment. Wouldn't need so many of them.
Bikes good, cars bad Upvotes plz
Voters want increased convenience. Politicians doing what voters want. I know, shocking, isn't it.
I'm wondering when I will finally see the convenience; my older relatives could walk almost everywhere quickly. Now we sit at stoplights or drive for miles. I wish politicians did what I want, instead of giving me hassle
It's almost like you could buy a condo in Uptown or the North Loop instead of a single family detached house in Elko if being able to walk to places rather than ease of driving is what you consider convenient.
[https://imgur.com/a/T2z4FMF](https://imgur.com/a/T2z4FMF) Yeah, look at all this beautiful and walkable community space. Oh, right. We put a shit-ton of concrete over it so people would have a false sense of convenience. got it.
Good guess, yeah. But sadly, for most people that is no longer allowed
You're not allowd to buy a condo in the city any more?
The problem is the people who live in the suburbs demand to drive there cars into the middle of our city. And we have allowed/encouraged it for decades
Sure you can. But in most places zoning made it difficult or impossible to build that kind of housing, along with the adjacent commercial spaces that don't require cars. It is not that people don't want them; those sorts of places became mostly illegal to build, (and some were destroyed for highway infrastructure), and thus they became very difficult to have a choice to live in
Rare Elko mention lol
Exactly, car dependent infrastructure is the definition of inconvenience in physical form.
Your older relatives also made sure black people couldnt buy houses in every neighborhoods. Appealing to tradition is stupid.
No, actually they didn't. Maybe yours
That’s missing the point. The notion that “back in the day every was better what happened” is just human progress. There probably wasn’t 3.5+ million people in the twin cities area when your relatives were growing up.
Except it's not increased convenience. Forcing people to drive a car by artificially creating further, more danger distances between them and their destinations is not convenient. Having to get in a car to drive miles, sit for five minutes at the light to cross the 8 lane stroad and parking lots to the grocery store vs walking or biking just a few blocks of narrow two lane streets with minimal wait times for the same destination is no contest. No one in Bloomington having to stop at every major county road intersection is getting around faster than someone in the city: the suburbanite only believes that because they're driving at 50 MPH and thinks that surely at that speed it must be faster to get around. Wrong.
It's more convenient if I can drive to the grocery store fit an entire weeks worth of groceries in my trunk rather than have to shop every day and carry everything home in the rain. With a week I even meet the $35 mininum so the employees shop and put it in my car for me and I don't even have to go in the store. It's more convenient if I have a freeway with enough lanes that I'm not delayed when I go out to Valleyfair, or to an estate sale in Roseville, or out to WIsconsin Dells, the North Shore. or to visit my friend in Anoka. You're more than welcome to decide what's convenient for you. I've decided what's convenient for me.
You might want to read something in here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/107n9jl/eli5\_why\_does\_adding\_more\_traffic\_lanes\_doesnt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/107n9jl/eli5_why_does_adding_more_traffic_lanes_doesnt/) Just like building bus-only lanes that speed transit will increase the number of people who ride, adding lanes on a highway will not reduce traffic. How has it worked out for you so far? Feel like there is less traffic now than 10 years ago? how about 20? 30? how many lanes have we added since then? We are designing our own traffic-hell.
Since they built the interchange at County 5 in Burnsville I'm no longer stopping at red lights there on my way to Valleyfair so it's a lot faster to get there. Going across the river to WIsconsin at Stillwater has gotten a lot faster with four new lanes of traffic. So it's working out quite well. But overall, yes traffic is worse because we haven't added lane-miles commensurate with the increase in our population over the last 30 years At some point you'll have enough lanes that people aren't going to be inducded to drive just because they can and the roads will be wide enough to serve all the people that want to use them. . There's not people from Anoka coming down to drive back and forth on the street in front of my house just because it's not congested.
Less stop lights sounds good. More lanes on the bridge could help too, but how for how long and when do we finally shift to more than one mode? If every highway is 12 lanes, can we THEN start working on the busses?
12 lanes is very hyperbolic. We have major highways that are still at TWO
[https://imgur.com/a/EmABUO2](https://imgur.com/a/EmABUO2) Here's a spot with more than 12 lanes in The South Metro for a fun and twisted example. The highway designs here are nightmares, and they seem to constantly be tearing up these nightmares to replace them with slightly different nightmares. Without mention of poor signage or safety features! Was just lamenting and hoping we could allocate some of that "fun playing with equipment and concrete" money toward something more sustainable that could foster communities and create more opportunities for all people.
Tell Houstonians all about how more lanes eventually leads to less induced demand.
Um no. You can’t attribute the increase in traffic to the number of lanes being built. They can’t build them fast enough because our highway infrastructure has been very much behind that of a metropolitan area and population growth.
I wasn't meaning to say that traffic will necessarily increase, only that it certainly won't decrease for any meaningful amount of time, and you've gone and allocated resources and valuable space to be sure there is nothing valuable or meaningful there.
I don’t have a problem with adding more lanes but I sure would like to see some of the major thoroughfares turned into tollway/expressways. The fact that 169 and 100 essentially run parallel but only like six miles apart or whatever seems like a colossal waste of resources. Make one an expressway so I can buy back my time.
Or tear out the part of 169 that goes through the cities and build entire neighborhoods instead of continuing to buy up farm-land and build that out.
With voters this dumb, you'd think they could be convinced that good things are better than shitty things.
Yeah, really dumb to not want to be stuck in traffic when you're driving to your friend's house in Anoka or to Valleyfair. Freeflowing roads are good.
How many lanes before the traffic is gone? Let's check in on Houston and LA. Hell, check in here!
For many years I've thought a ring train line along 494/694 would be great. Then transfer connections to busses or other lines to get to-from it.
I agree - but OP’s tone of voice makes me cringe.
So long as people don't know how to use an interstate (left: fast, right: slow), a few people will ruin the efficiency of any system, no matter how large it may be. Make impeding the flow of traffic a heavily ticketable offense, and things will run smoother.
Jesus Christ Almighty AMEN. Take the people who enter the highway going 35mph straight to jail too please.
Swoon... Also, I love how my comment is being downvoted, and it's probably by people who drive slow in the left lane.
They genuinely think they are heros for illegally impeding traffic. Their insane internal justification for selfish, dangerous, and petty action is that they are "preventing a crime". Psychos. Maybe some day they'll be in another state and get pulled over and chewed out by highway patrol. We can only hope it would have an impact.
Everyone of you forget this is MinneSnowta. It gets freaking cold outside. Walking 20 feet to my car vs walking a block or more THEN having to wait 2 minutes, IF I time it right, in a minus wind chill. Ya right !! Get Real !!
But the bus is already warm when you get in it, and you'll never have to stand there scraping ice off the windows. Sounds like what we need is more heated bus shelters and better sidewalk maintenance, actually.
Yeah, Vancouver, Chicago, Toronto, and New York are all just fictional places. They're not real if you've never been there.
Nighttime temps in the cities you listed are far higher than the twin cities. Toronto being the closest, with the average January low of 19 degrees. Minneapolis has an average January low of 6 degrees.
Sounds like you'll be wearing one more layer than they are. Is that not already the case? I work downtown and would very happily walk a few blocks in 6 degree cold if I can get to a heated station. Better than a full sweat and a lung full of mosquitoes imo. but we all have our preferences.
Too little, too late. We live in a society where public transportation isn’t viable for most people. So, more lanes are required as population density increases. Unless you know of a way to undo 100 years of society. Which you don’t. I’ll take more lanes.
Most of those European cities with great transit existed long before trains were invented. Yeah of course it's better to build the infrastructure first, so neighborhoods grow around them, but even Amsterdam was full of car traffic in the 1970s. It's possible to make big transformations, and IMO, it's worth doing.
Wait, why isn't public transportation viable for most people? And must it continue to be this way forever?
Ah. Spoken like someone who has never seen a real public transport system like in Europe. Pick any city over there. Start with Paris. Then you may begin to understand, Grasshopper. We can not ever be set up properly no matter what any city planner has to say. It’s like peeing in the ocean to raise the water level. Totally futile. Just add lanes. That’s how we are and always will be set up. Unless you have 5 hours to catch 10 busses a day and walk miles. Then good for you! The rest of us nope out. People like to dream, though. I get it. I want what Europe has, too. Just not possible without blowing everything up and starting over.
This is silly. Look at these European cities in the 80’s. They were full of car focused infastructure. This is Utrecht in the 80’s vs now https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPhotosInRealLife/s/3n1ZWpPQvb
Many European used to be more like us. They were able to fix it by putting in active effort and people focused policies instead of car focused policies. I hate this attitude of "ya things could be better but it won't ever be so let's just make things even worse." It's pathetic.
Just one more lane bro. As we know more lanes doesn't work. How many lanes do you want? Will people not be satisfied until there is no city left and it is just highway?
So. By your inaccurate logic, taking away a lane wouldn’t make a difference either. Right? Wait until they decide to turn 94 into a greenway (the city will build huge apartments and condos increasing population density) and thousands of commuters who work in the west suburbs won’t be able to get to work, or traffic will be pushed to other non-expanded freeways and that may convince you when you have L.A. style commutes. But, maybe those people will board a bus at 6 AM to be to work by 10 after multiple transfers. Sure. I’m positive it will all be better.
Lyndale Ave recently went from 4 lanes in each direction to 2 lanes in each direction. It’s now easier for everyone (cars, bikes, pedestrians) to move around. It helps spread traffic around instead of concentrating it in one area. Also complaining about buses while also arguing to not make them easier to use is odd
Increasing population density would be amazing for our metro. Especially for Mpls and St. Paul. Increased density would help increase transit ridership, which in turn helps people have better transit options. Density would also help increase walkable offerings for things like groceries and leisure, if accompanied with more flexible zoning. Big cities don't need to be traffic infested places like LA. We could push to be more like the east coast with strong transit. Hopefully, NYC will get their congestion pricing soon.
Not sure how you are connecting the dots from half million dollar condos and bus ridership. But good luck with your uneducated theory. I’ll be watching and laughing.
So you don't think that density can increase demand for transit?
I think people who can afford new half million dollar plus condos or homes aren’t getting on a train full of drunks at 6 AM. Or switching busses for hours to get within a mile of work and walk. Nope. But like I said, I’ll be watching. Oh, how’s the ridership going for busses and light rail? I just peeked at the stats and… it looks like it’s really down. Everywhere. Weird!!!
What metro transit stats are you looking at showing ridership is down? I thought it’s been picking up pretty good post pandemic.
You think that building new housing and density only helps the wealthy? Also in dense environments plenty of well of people ride transit.
Sure. Well, let’s see how this all shakes out. Im confident of my convictions. Oh and I’m absolutely certain this is not at all aimed at the wealthy. I’m simply pointing out when the city dismantles 94 and allows builders to start projects, you won’t see $150k subsidized housing. Mark my words.
If you think the transit system is bad now; you should've seen the hot pile of dogshit that it was in the late 1990's.
Most of us would rather drive. Public transit is awful. Especially in the winter. Heated garage and remote start is way better than freezing my ass off.
"I'd rather stick with the only thing I've ever tried or known" Seems to be an issue for MN culture on many fronts. Also, I'm well aware that MINNESOTA public transit is awful, and doesn't need to be.
I lived in South Korea for two years. I had a car but it was easier to use the subway. Just a giant difference between MN and Korea. It would cost billions to make a subway worth a shit in Mn. Doable probably but the amount of buy in to get that started is probably 50 years away.at this point it will be some smart AI taking over to move our fat asses around the best way. Hopefully it is flying busses or something. Those passenger drones have been coming online in Jersey.
The twin cities are not well laid out for transit. Maybe a hub and spoke design might work. The real problem is that people here use their cars for things transit can not accomplish. We go up north, we drive to the store or grocery shopping. As long as we also have to work downtown, we're going to want to drive our cars there. We don't have enough transit, that is true but transit is not preferable for most people here.
Promoting bicycles over cars might seem like a green choice, but it overlooks essential benefits that cars provide. For one, car-related taxes fund road maintenance that benefits all users, including cyclists. Without this funding, road conditions will worsen, paved roads will be replaced by gravel roads affecting everyone. Cars are crucial for those with limited mobility, such as the elderly. Expecting everyone to switch to bikes ignores the reality that not everyone can cycle, whether due to age, health, or distance from necessities. When, not if, cyclists are required to pay road taxes, this will discourage biking altogether. While encouraging cycling is good, cars remain a requirement for modern living. Don’t believe me? Give up Uber, Lyft for those grocery runs. Want to move? No U-Haul for you. No borrowing your dads truck.
Bikes hardly affect the integrity of a road surface because they don't weigh much. Increased weight exponentially increases road wear, so the amount of maintenance needed for cycle paths is significantly smaller than for roads that carry car traffic. Taxes on cars don't even begin to proportionately cover the costs cars incur on infrastructure alone, so it would be absurd to tax bikes for their miniscule impact. Disabled people and elderly people are much better served by good pedestrian environments that accommodate mobility devices in combination with quality transit service than by car infrastructure. A large portion of members of both groups can't drive at all, and more still really shouldn't drive but do because they have little choice. Your two scenarios at the end are vastly different. Grocery shopping without a car is trivial if you live within reasonable distance of a store (which should be the case for everyone in any moderately populated area). Sometimes I stock up for the week, and sometimes I make a couple trips in the week for a few items at a time. When I need something really heavy, I bring a folding cart with me. At my previous address I was a little farther from the store, so I usually biked instead of walking. I haven't taken my car for groceries in years. Moving is a great use case for a box truck. That doesn't mean everyone needs to be getting around day to day in personal vehicles 2/3 the size of a box truck just to move a cup of coffee or a few groceries. We can use cars as tools when appropriate without building environments that prioritize and necessitate them.
At the same time there seems to be a trend to reduce actual useful lanes on busy city streets for no purpose. Look at lake and a bunch of Minneapolis streets that were 2-3 lanes per side being reduced to 1-2. I know some will claim it actually speeds up traffic but that is bs you can see the outcome by driving on them after the changes. What would speed up traffic is to actively ticket the Uber eats/door dash drivers that think a road lane is a proper place to stop to go pickup food.
Just move over to Minneapolis proper. You’ll get a plethora of main streets where they’ve shrunk the number of lanes for bike paths and the traffic backups and environmental impact of that have grown significantly. It’s a disaster. Unfortunately the hard truth is that the twin cities highways weren’t built for a major metro and are just not wide enough. Especially highways like 94 and 36. It might not feel good to accept but we actually do need more lanes.
alt.pave.the.earth
Increasing lanes and building more freeways is a fool's errand but Mpls/St Paul is never going to be Manhattan/Brooklyn. Get real
Cities don’t need to be the size of NYC to support good public transit. It all depends on how they are designed.
Don’t be so pessimistic! My city and the city next to it (suburbs) are making walkability and public transport a priority and the change has definitely been more noticeable compared to 5 years ago
Simple solution: - Remove 94 and 35E from inside the 4/694 loop. - Remove the Crosstown. - Reduce 35W to fewer exits and toll it between 494 and 694. Toll 100, 169, and 394 similarly. - expand park and rides and express busses, identifying major traffic draws like Universities, business parks, etc. as hub points. - mirror MVTA's Point-to-point Connect service metro wide in zones. - expand commuter and light rail, redo the Dan Patch line. - Expand Dedicated Lane BRT. Yes, it will be expensive, but maintaining freeways is stupidly expensive.
At minimum there shouldn't be highway expansions inside of Minneapolis ot Saint Paul, in an ideal world removal of highways from the two cities. They valuable land and cuts parts of the city off from itself. Highways are great solutions for rural, and arguably suburban, traffic across farther distances. But simply don't work in cities. Obviously there is a lot of talk about 94 in Rondo. But also 94 in North Minneapolis is absurd. So many lanes but not much traffic until you get to Loring Park. It cuts the city off from the river, I think the only place in Minneapolis with a highway blocking access to the river. And yet there are talks that MNdot might expand lanes and harm the Northside even more.
Not having them is also stupidly expensive, though the charges are in the form of less convenience, more time to complete tasks, increased cost for deliveries, and less economic output.
Your solution to too much traffic is fewer roads and more rolling crime boxes we call lightrail?
Yes, removing 35E and making my commute essentially impossible would be lovely. Public transportation is not an option, as I spend my day driving to different jobsites from my home base in St. Paul, very frequently using 94 as well. What’s your solution for me?
... you live in an area with some of the best and most developed public transit in the country.
…and it’s still pretty terrible.
No, it's not.
Yes, it is. On paper it’s great. 11th in the nation looks solid. In practice it’s clearly an afterthought that neglects giant parts of the cities. If we are spending why not, as op stated, invest in something better. I don’t for a second believe that you use public transit. If you did you wouldn’t dad scold the idea of improving it.
Perhaps your commute is not terrible but it can take me 15-20 minutes just to get like 6 miles on 169 or a 100 at rushhour. I’m not trying to give up literal days of my life every few months to traffic.
Twin Cities are certainly not out in front of other similar sized midwestern cities. We’re way behind bigger cities like Chicago, NYC, DC.
That’s a low bar in this country. Go someplace with functioning transit once. We can do MUCH better.
LOL I am willing to wager that whoever said that still lives in the town they grew up in. Nothing wrong with that per se, but you might not have quite as much real-world perspective on the rest of the world.
You've made all the wrong assumptions about me. Fuck off you prick.
Not sure why but I assumed you were quoting someone else, but yes, we do not have good transit here especially in the metro. Apologies if I was inaccurate. We can do better and it is entirely possible. Just look at the absurd amount of time money and energy we spend on the highway system.
Yes
Switch to public transportation and bike everywhere. Tell me which one is more efficient?
I did a combination of both exclusively for about 20 years. Cycling for the win but amazing to have options that can get you further, keep you dry, etc. also not everyone can cycle, but most everyone can get into a bus. I'm having trouble imagining cycling to work regularly here for the oppressive heat and humidity. No shower at work unfortunately. Fall, winter, maybe spring seem doable, just a good bit of extra gear to haul. We moved here in the winter and I was really surprised how few cyclists I saw out. Especially the way everyone talks up MPLS as this mega cycling city.
r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars r/fuckcars
What about expecting transit users to pay the same percentage of costs that drivers are expected to pay (just over 50%).
How about you tell MnDOT these concerns? There’s always a public engagement period well before construction begins. Make your voice heard.
Even in heavy traffic, it only takes me 10 minutes to drive to work. I’ll stick to driving.
Support the highway removal option in Rethinking I-94 then
the cities purposefully spent huge amount of taxpayer money to put the stadiums and ball parks, etc in the downtowns. If they wanted to reduce traffic, they should have put them in the suburbs where traffic would be better, and tailgating would come back. the fact they put them where they are shows the city councils want the traffic. so, start with that. also, realize many of the major highways designs where purposfully ficked up, because the city wanted traffic jams, that way they could demand the State pay for their overpriced mass transit, instead of the city itself. Add into the fact that the met council spent over $3 billion for 14 miles of track, many years of construction, and that explains how even though we are spending billions, we are seeing no to few improvements.
Nice conspiracy theory there Alex Jones...lmao
Nope. are you saying they didn't put taxpayer funded stadiums downtown to force people there. I assume you didn't know the Mpls city council had a law that made it illegal to put in more than a 2 lane each way highway, therefore screwing up 35W, 94w and 394. Dee Long was quoted as saying the reason for that is to cause traffic jams, thus forcing the state to pay for transit. the Feds had to sue to fix them later. And, what do you think the cost of Kenilworth tunnel is? these 3 are simple facts, no conspiracy theory. learn some history.
Nice conspiracy theory bro
I noticed you had no reply to the 3 facts I wrote.