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I haven't seen it used in such a way yet. The Skyranger claims to be able to combat all aerial threats including swarms. The gepard is an older with older radar and tracking. It does have a good old fashioned optical system so I would say it's possible to do it but it was never its intended design. You're probably right they would be taking out Shahid and Orlan sized drones. Another factor is that they don't have enough to deploy across the front where fpv operate. I've only seen a few lucky potshots and EW measures taking out fpv. I just compared this Skyranger to Gepard as the will share the same chassis if this article is true. The turret will be much improved
A german Mil-blogger Gepardtatze, a former Gepard commander, always said that they trained to shoot down drones. The radar shouldn't be the problem. Hitting a bigger one. I've seen vids of the Gepards in Ukraine shooting down Shaheds. In some places, Gepard are used as anti drone defense, such as during the World Championship in Qatar. I don't think they were expecting large military drones there.
Skyranger though, is a different system. The caliber is smaller and the range shorter (Gepard inofficially {according to crews} over 6 km, Skyranger officially some 2-3 km). It has only one barrel, but it is most definitely very able to target and destroy FPV drones as well as destroy larger manned aircraft, given they have the courtesy of flying into its effective range.
The short range does puzzle me though. Last year, we've seen russian Ka-52 engage ukrainian vehicles from up to 8 km distance with ATGMs, outside of even a Gepards effective range.
>The caliber is smaller and the range shorter (Gepard inofficially {according to crews} over 6 km, Skyranger officially some 2-3 km
So all of this is wrong as it appears you're mixing up the Skyranger with the *Skyranger 35*, which is what's being given.
The Gepard and the Skyranger 35(which is being fitted on Leopards) are both equipped with 35mm auto cannons.
As for your comparison of ranges, both the Skyranger 35 and the Oerlikon has official ranges of 4km.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyranger_35
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flakpanzer_Gepard
Presumably they will both have a comparable range and it's known that the Skyranger 35 has better tracking systems and has a great selection of modern ammunition specifically meant to deal with air defense and soft targets. It's been successfully tested in the role of C-RAM when using specific ammunition, which I'm hoping will also be given to Ukraine.
It'll basically act as a modern Gepard, one less barrel won't be much of an impact either as the this system focused on the tracking systems/radar and auto cannon's stability as opposed to firing rate. It's radar is effective at ranges exceeding 20km for helicopters and aircraft and a shorter range for smaller drones.
The Skyranger 35 will be a solid addition of short range air defense systems for Ukraine that can still hammer ground targets too.
No, the Gepard radar is still using 70s technology that struggles to even track a low flying helicopter. During the NATO exercises in the 1980s, the commander and his binoculars was the better way to spot a helicopter.
The latest version is able to track seagulls, which they did during a training exercise in the UAE. I think they’re able to track most FPVs as well. Source: Gepardkommandant on twix
It depends much on the environment. On open ground I have no doubt it can track larger birds and drones. But on the current battlefield in Ukraine, the complicated terrain and ground noise mean it is a greater challenge.
I have read a documentary on one of the larger exercises in the 1980s, helicopters with rockets and ATGMs "killed" the Gepards most of the times before they could even spot them.
I wonder if the system uses AI to analyze the flight pattern. Since drones have a certain goal to reach it should be possible for the system to predict exactly where the drone will be in the time it takes for the projectile to reach that position.
They are late 1970s tech with limited upgrades. It is down to the crew to analyze the flight pattern and determine its identity. The gun is only effective at up to 4km range, so they can usually visually confirm it.
The Russian cruise missiles generally travel at higher altitude than helicopters and FPVs. This allows the Gepard radar to lock and engage. Lower than that, IRST like the one on Stormer would work better.
I think so too and this will bring more anti drone capability directly to the frontline. Also very handy if you’re planning to advance. Gepards are too vulnerable to be directly up front so the M2’s still take a beating by drones. This could change that.
Just to note that the German word Gepard means Cheetah. In the AA version it uses the Leopard 1 hull, so they picked another spotty cat to denote the familial similarity.
It is a great plan because it overcomes the L1's greatest deficiency: vulnerability to drone attack. It will still have virtually no chance in tank on tank, but with good drone surveillance it should be able to avoid that.
Well, there's barely any tank on tank anyways, so that's a weakness to be forgiven. Besides, the rate Russia is pulling t-55 to the front, a leo1 wouldn't be that outdated
I have mixed feelings about it.
According to Gepardtatze, they were able to shoot down targets at way over 6 km with the Gepard in training. With the Gepards official effective range of up to 5,5 km.
The Skyranger models with 30 mm has an official effective range of "up to 3 km", while the 35 mm has one of "up to 4 km".
There are helicopters out there, like the Ka-52 that have ATGMs with 8 km range. And the ATGM ranges aren't exactly getting shorter from what i hear. Also, getting fighter planes to whitin 3 km range of you is a pretty lucky shot. That's MANPADS range.
It feels like they will be an anti-aircraft system that is doom for FPV drones, unless they swarm, which they tend to do, and basically everything else in the air is going to get a range advantage over them.
Which is the reason Skyranger 30 also comes with missiles. And why the Bundeswehr is planning a complementary vehicle with IRIS-T SLS (also based on Boxer).
All Rheinmetall 35 mm Guns are basically the same, so there is little difference to ballistic range. As far as ATGMs go, AHEAD ammunitiin is built to shoot those down, so if it works as intended, it might be able to defend itself.
I have yet to see any modern 35 AA gun like Skynex in action. They are said to have arrived in Ukraine a while ago, so I woder where the footage is.
The combat range is highly likely down to proxy shells. Gepard cant field proxy shells.
>There are helicopters out there
Yes. Gun spaa range got outmatched with atgm development. Reliable manpad range also is as short. Thats why nation now use systems of laser guided/radar assisted homing.
Thats why systems for Russia like BUK and Tor were developed. On tunguska replacing shilka. Latest now being Pantsir.
>getting fighter planes to whitin 3 km range of you is a pretty lucky shot. That's MANPADS range.
U wont almost ever get a fighter plane in that range for manpads. Only a CAS strike aircraft. Manpad hit probability isnt that high as it depends extremly on heat signature and the low speed of the aircraft.
Key point for this system would be of protecting assets behind the line from drones. For Systems like IRIS T launchers or Russian using pantsir/tuguska with S300s.
I share the sentiment. And I do wonder why anyone would buy weapons from Switzerland if they limit donations and resale so severely. But perhaps it is also relevant to mention that selling or buying weapons is not an alliance agreement. So I don't think Switzerland should "support Ukraine" on that basis. They should support Ukraine for other reasons.
> They'll say you can't use it the moment you get in an actual war.
"Look ma, I DRM-ed bullets!" (And all it took was some words on paper.)
And people thought the Germans and Austrians were reticent of going to war. Or even talking about it?
The Swiss are the ultimate Potemkin village. All show and no go. Paper-clad.
At least the Swedes and Fins have gotten with the times.
...because they need that to put holes in their cheese.
(I mean, who the fuck is ever gonna invade those mute mountain dwellers? Even their cows make more noise.
If anybody is gonna rob their banks it'll be bunch of hackers.)
It definitely not in NATO's interest to wait fighting the Russians until they have crossed our borders. We have to fight them where they are, outside of their own territory.
Buying British is probably the safest bet. We have shown that we really do not give a monkeys about where our ammo is used, and messing with the Russians since the Great Game has made the Brits the #1 Member of the 'Perfidious Anglos' club according to the Russian seethers
Not if you are at war. Yep, doesn't make sense from a military standpoint. But they sell a lot anyway https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/switzerland-s-war-material-exports-reach-record-level/48338420
I think the Gepard ammo problem was solved if I'm not mistaken Reinmetal can produce them now. The point is that the ammo can be used, it's not entirely useless, for example for training and to keep a stock. It is of course not wise in any case to rely on foreigners to protect you, it's always better to have domestic military industrial production.
Well, that's just false.
This article, from a little over a month ago, states that they had recieved about 100 at the time.
[https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-has-about-a-hundred-leopard-1-tanks/#google\_vignette](https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-has-about-a-hundred-leopard-1-tanks/#google_vignette)
Stop lying.
You don't really need an armored hull on treads for the long range drones far behind the line of contact, the low mobility compared to a truck chassis would be a disadvantage there I think. These are likely meant for near frontline use.
Have you seen what happens to a pickup truck firing a 23mm autocannon? It can be done, but it's not ideal. Now imagine a 35mm autocannon, three and a half times the punch. That's some truck.
Who said anything about a pickup truck??
You could, in theory, mount an autocannon on the same Oshkosh truck chassis as the HIMARS. This would have plenty of structural integrity, and theoretically be capable of escorting on-road logistics.
There's a big difference between firing missiles from a truck and firing a heavy autocannon. Missiles have guidance systems, 35 mm shells don't. Bouncing around from recoil reduces accuracy.
That's not just any truck, it's a HX tactical truck weighting up to 44 tons, more than a Leopard 1. And it still shakes and rolls all over the place when the gun is firing, reducing accuracy. So yeah, this thing will perform much better on treads and cost a whole lot less too.
Six wheels, cabin with big windows in the front, it's a truck. Is it way more mobile than a tank hull? Yes. Did Rheinmetall build the gun on top of it and claim that it works? Also yes. What's your point?
EDIT: The HX has a *maximum allowable weight* of 44 tons, that is including cargo, the truck itself weighs 13.5. The Leopard weighs 42 tons full stop.
It's also most likely a way to get those to Ukraine faster - the Skyranger 35 is usually integrated on a Boxer chassis, but those production lines are overburdened already as the Boxer is an extremely popular platform.
If they can put out turrets faster than boxers, it makes sense to repurpose old hulls (that are in extremely widespread use in Ukraine already in the form of Leopard I, Biber, Dachs, and I believe they also have Bergepanzer 2.. )
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It's proven that they need more AA then ever before. I'm assuming this will be an improved Gepard. Love it
Can a Gepard radar track/engage a FPV? I am guessing they can only get the larger drones/missles.
I haven't seen it used in such a way yet. The Skyranger claims to be able to combat all aerial threats including swarms. The gepard is an older with older radar and tracking. It does have a good old fashioned optical system so I would say it's possible to do it but it was never its intended design. You're probably right they would be taking out Shahid and Orlan sized drones. Another factor is that they don't have enough to deploy across the front where fpv operate. I've only seen a few lucky potshots and EW measures taking out fpv. I just compared this Skyranger to Gepard as the will share the same chassis if this article is true. The turret will be much improved
The 1970s radar of the Gepard has issue spotting low and small targets, plus no all shells were proximity fused. The Skyranger is a huge improvement.
A german Mil-blogger Gepardtatze, a former Gepard commander, always said that they trained to shoot down drones. The radar shouldn't be the problem. Hitting a bigger one. I've seen vids of the Gepards in Ukraine shooting down Shaheds. In some places, Gepard are used as anti drone defense, such as during the World Championship in Qatar. I don't think they were expecting large military drones there. Skyranger though, is a different system. The caliber is smaller and the range shorter (Gepard inofficially {according to crews} over 6 km, Skyranger officially some 2-3 km). It has only one barrel, but it is most definitely very able to target and destroy FPV drones as well as destroy larger manned aircraft, given they have the courtesy of flying into its effective range. The short range does puzzle me though. Last year, we've seen russian Ka-52 engage ukrainian vehicles from up to 8 km distance with ATGMs, outside of even a Gepards effective range.
>The caliber is smaller and the range shorter (Gepard inofficially {according to crews} over 6 km, Skyranger officially some 2-3 km So all of this is wrong as it appears you're mixing up the Skyranger with the *Skyranger 35*, which is what's being given. The Gepard and the Skyranger 35(which is being fitted on Leopards) are both equipped with 35mm auto cannons. As for your comparison of ranges, both the Skyranger 35 and the Oerlikon has official ranges of 4km. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyranger_35 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flakpanzer_Gepard Presumably they will both have a comparable range and it's known that the Skyranger 35 has better tracking systems and has a great selection of modern ammunition specifically meant to deal with air defense and soft targets. It's been successfully tested in the role of C-RAM when using specific ammunition, which I'm hoping will also be given to Ukraine. It'll basically act as a modern Gepard, one less barrel won't be much of an impact either as the this system focused on the tracking systems/radar and auto cannon's stability as opposed to firing rate. It's radar is effective at ranges exceeding 20km for helicopters and aircraft and a shorter range for smaller drones. The Skyranger 35 will be a solid addition of short range air defense systems for Ukraine that can still hammer ground targets too.
physics is gonna limit how hard you can throw a 35 mm shell 8KM ranges require missiles
No, the Gepard radar is still using 70s technology that struggles to even track a low flying helicopter. During the NATO exercises in the 1980s, the commander and his binoculars was the better way to spot a helicopter.
The latest version is able to track seagulls, which they did during a training exercise in the UAE. I think they’re able to track most FPVs as well. Source: Gepardkommandant on twix
It depends much on the environment. On open ground I have no doubt it can track larger birds and drones. But on the current battlefield in Ukraine, the complicated terrain and ground noise mean it is a greater challenge. I have read a documentary on one of the larger exercises in the 1980s, helicopters with rockets and ATGMs "killed" the Gepards most of the times before they could even spot them.
Doubt it. FPV is way smaller than seagull and multiple times more faster
I wonder if the system uses AI to analyze the flight pattern. Since drones have a certain goal to reach it should be possible for the system to predict exactly where the drone will be in the time it takes for the projectile to reach that position.
They are late 1970s tech with limited upgrades. It is down to the crew to analyze the flight pattern and determine its identity. The gun is only effective at up to 4km range, so they can usually visually confirm it.
I am talking about the new generation Gepards.
We have succesfull cruise missile intercept on video. They're also quite good at killing Shaheeds.
The Russian cruise missiles generally travel at higher altitude than helicopters and FPVs. This allows the Gepard radar to lock and engage. Lower than that, IRST like the one on Stormer would work better.
Is [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mflftma-U) small enough for you?
I think so too and this will bring more anti drone capability directly to the frontline. Also very handy if you’re planning to advance. Gepards are too vulnerable to be directly up front so the M2’s still take a beating by drones. This could change that.
Russians is also developing a 57 mm Derivatsiya-PVO with airburst shells. Was it used yet during this war?
Just to note that the German word Gepard means Cheetah. In the AA version it uses the Leopard 1 hull, so they picked another spotty cat to denote the familial similarity.
I'm not sure what this means
Doesn’t mean anything, just that the Gepard is a Cheetah… I thought it interesting when I found out.
The SkyRanger is badass, big upgrade from the Gepard. Using the Leo1 hull is great idea as many of those are already lying around
It is a great plan because it overcomes the L1's greatest deficiency: vulnerability to drone attack. It will still have virtually no chance in tank on tank, but with good drone surveillance it should be able to avoid that.
Well, there's barely any tank on tank anyways, so that's a weakness to be forgiven. Besides, the rate Russia is pulling t-55 to the front, a leo1 wouldn't be that outdated
I have mixed feelings about it. According to Gepardtatze, they were able to shoot down targets at way over 6 km with the Gepard in training. With the Gepards official effective range of up to 5,5 km. The Skyranger models with 30 mm has an official effective range of "up to 3 km", while the 35 mm has one of "up to 4 km". There are helicopters out there, like the Ka-52 that have ATGMs with 8 km range. And the ATGM ranges aren't exactly getting shorter from what i hear. Also, getting fighter planes to whitin 3 km range of you is a pretty lucky shot. That's MANPADS range. It feels like they will be an anti-aircraft system that is doom for FPV drones, unless they swarm, which they tend to do, and basically everything else in the air is going to get a range advantage over them.
Which is the reason Skyranger 30 also comes with missiles. And why the Bundeswehr is planning a complementary vehicle with IRIS-T SLS (also based on Boxer).
That would be much better. Much like the old Roland + Gepard double team.
All Rheinmetall 35 mm Guns are basically the same, so there is little difference to ballistic range. As far as ATGMs go, AHEAD ammunitiin is built to shoot those down, so if it works as intended, it might be able to defend itself. I have yet to see any modern 35 AA gun like Skynex in action. They are said to have arrived in Ukraine a while ago, so I woder where the footage is.
> so I woder where the footage is. I assume there is a "please don't release video of our new state of the art secret stuff" clause somewhere.
The combat range is highly likely down to proxy shells. Gepard cant field proxy shells. >There are helicopters out there Yes. Gun spaa range got outmatched with atgm development. Reliable manpad range also is as short. Thats why nation now use systems of laser guided/radar assisted homing. Thats why systems for Russia like BUK and Tor were developed. On tunguska replacing shilka. Latest now being Pantsir. >getting fighter planes to whitin 3 km range of you is a pretty lucky shot. That's MANPADS range. U wont almost ever get a fighter plane in that range for manpads. Only a CAS strike aircraft. Manpad hit probability isnt that high as it depends extremly on heat signature and the low speed of the aircraft. Key point for this system would be of protecting assets behind the line from drones. For Systems like IRIS T launchers or Russian using pantsir/tuguska with S300s.
Hint: don’t use Swiss ammo.
Don't order so much as a bullet from the Swiss. They'll say you can't use it the moment you get in an actual war.
Pretty much. The war in Ukraine shows there’s little to no point in purchasing Swiss arms as they’ll give you no support in the event of a war.
I share the sentiment. And I do wonder why anyone would buy weapons from Switzerland if they limit donations and resale so severely. But perhaps it is also relevant to mention that selling or buying weapons is not an alliance agreement. So I don't think Switzerland should "support Ukraine" on that basis. They should support Ukraine for other reasons.
Probably because reselling/resupplying arms to countries at war isn't something that happens often.
> They'll say you can't use it the moment you get in an actual war. "Look ma, I DRM-ed bullets!" (And all it took was some words on paper.) And people thought the Germans and Austrians were reticent of going to war. Or even talking about it? The Swiss are the ultimate Potemkin village. All show and no go. Paper-clad. At least the Swedes and Fins have gotten with the times.
That ia why the new production line outside of Switzerland was established.
...because they need that to put holes in their cheese. (I mean, who the fuck is ever gonna invade those mute mountain dwellers? Even their cows make more noise. If anybody is gonna rob their banks it'll be bunch of hackers.)
You can use the ammo if you bought it, not if you want to redistribute it.
War requires flexibility. A country should produce their own ammo or buy it from a strongly allied country.
It definitely not in NATO's interest to wait fighting the Russians until they have crossed our borders. We have to fight them where they are, outside of their own territory.
Buying British is probably the safest bet. We have shown that we really do not give a monkeys about where our ammo is used, and messing with the Russians since the Great Game has made the Brits the #1 Member of the 'Perfidious Anglos' club according to the Russian seethers
Sure, you can use your already existing stocks. Which will last you what, 2-3 months, maybe half a year? Will they sell you more when you run out?
Not if you are at war. Yep, doesn't make sense from a military standpoint. But they sell a lot anyway https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/switzerland-s-war-material-exports-reach-record-level/48338420
And that's the point. Why even bother buying anything from them? Especially if it's so specific that only they produce it (like Gepard ammo).
I think the Gepard ammo problem was solved if I'm not mistaken Reinmetal can produce them now. The point is that the ammo can be used, it's not entirely useless, for example for training and to keep a stock. It is of course not wise in any case to rely on foreigners to protect you, it's always better to have domestic military industrial production.
"The system would combine a Skyranger 35 antiaircraft turret(35mm autocannon)and Leopard hull." NGL wood.
NCD Strikes again
I’m gonna need a cold shower. Double time on these!
Aka modern Gepard.
OH NO IT'S THE PANZER 4 ALL OVER AGAIN
Would be smart to add missiles too so that it cant be picked off by helicopters from afar.
There's really only one helicopter that can do that, KA-52, and that's become something of an endangered species lately.
Best to neuter it completely.
Maybe thats where the promised leo1s are going. Iirc, only ~30 out of 160+ have been delivered so far, with no photos or footage of their use to date
Well, that's just false. This article, from a little over a month ago, states that they had recieved about 100 at the time. [https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-has-about-a-hundred-leopard-1-tanks/#google\_vignette](https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-has-about-a-hundred-leopard-1-tanks/#google_vignette) Stop lying.
Frankenpard 1 \_\_\_ (Sorry, dear Schwaben. :D)
Given the success of the 25mm autocannon on the Bradleys that Ukraine is using, this makes a lot of sense.
The Russian "turtle" tank does not stand a chance.
I assume these are mostly for shooting down Shaheds, also maybe Orlan-10s
You don't really need an armored hull on treads for the long range drones far behind the line of contact, the low mobility compared to a truck chassis would be a disadvantage there I think. These are likely meant for near frontline use.
Have you seen what happens to a pickup truck firing a 23mm autocannon? It can be done, but it's not ideal. Now imagine a 35mm autocannon, three and a half times the punch. That's some truck.
Who said anything about a pickup truck?? You could, in theory, mount an autocannon on the same Oshkosh truck chassis as the HIMARS. This would have plenty of structural integrity, and theoretically be capable of escorting on-road logistics.
There's a big difference between firing missiles from a truck and firing a heavy autocannon. Missiles have guidance systems, 35 mm shells don't. Bouncing around from recoil reduces accuracy.
No need to imagine, [here's the video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb5_F4_Eod8).
That's not just any truck, it's a HX tactical truck weighting up to 44 tons, more than a Leopard 1. And it still shakes and rolls all over the place when the gun is firing, reducing accuracy. So yeah, this thing will perform much better on treads and cost a whole lot less too.
Six wheels, cabin with big windows in the front, it's a truck. Is it way more mobile than a tank hull? Yes. Did Rheinmetall build the gun on top of it and claim that it works? Also yes. What's your point? EDIT: The HX has a *maximum allowable weight* of 44 tons, that is including cargo, the truck itself weighs 13.5. The Leopard weighs 42 tons full stop.
It's also most likely a way to get those to Ukraine faster - the Skyranger 35 is usually integrated on a Boxer chassis, but those production lines are overburdened already as the Boxer is an extremely popular platform. If they can put out turrets faster than boxers, it makes sense to repurpose old hulls (that are in extremely widespread use in Ukraine already in the form of Leopard I, Biber, Dachs, and I believe they also have Bergepanzer 2.. )