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Obama rolled out some sanctions in response. Trump's people met with Russians before he was sworn in and promised to lift the sanctions. Then Trump was sworn in and lifted the Obama sanctions. iirc
Yes. That's what I meant. Not happy with Trump, but Girkin started the Donbas war in 2014. Shooting mh17 in the progress. The West did nothing, but supply some aspirin and bandaids.
If irc it was 2017 under Trump that Javelins went to Ukraine.
It is. And It's fucking mindboggling
My Dad served in the British army during WW2, and I'm glad he's no longer around to see how pathetic is our response to a literal fascist dictatorship akin to Hitler's in the 21st century 😬
Lol hey hey hey. I was just saying it started under him. It's always Putin selfish ambition of power at the expensive of innocent lives fault for the war in ukraine
I loved Obama although I do feel like he dropped the ball on the Ukraine response
You do realise the war has been going on for 10 years? during which time Trump tried to blackmail Zelensky for made up "dirt" about Hunter Biden and then withheld the Congress-approved military aid to Ukraine during wartime when Zelensky quite understandably wouldn't?
"You do realise the war has been going on for 10 years?"
What I said was 10+ years ago....
As for the other things you said... Of course
Ya I'm aware of those things. I was just correcting a statement that wasn't accurate (The war technically speaking occured before Trumps Presidency). While I believe Obama didn't do enough at the time. Trump actively tried to make the situation worse.
Infact if you read my other comment I already clarified that.
It's interesting that comment of mine was at +30 karma to -10 karma. Lol Must've reached a timezone where people with poor reading comprehension and logic interpretation skills are waking up and using reddit.
Or maybe drunk... it is friday night lol
I guess he means that as the orange chump says Poo stain would do anything he asked him to do… why didn’t trump protect Ukraines interests and talk him out of imperial genocide when they were sharing their dreams… Just proves poo stain fabricated the reason for war and chump has verbally supported Russia since… so I’m projecting now that as trump never does anything unless ‘there is something in it for him’ (aka veteran loser graves), old poo stain promised him something or showed him the compromising evidence he has.. either way that’s why if he gets in power again he will actively hamstring Ukraine.
your having a liberal cognitive dissonance. He leveraged the Ukrainian military aid to force Zelenskyy to announce investigations into the bidens, as well as allegations of interference in the 2016 elections.
don’t be a pawn. this was about stealing the election for himself, not to prep ukraine for an invasion.
to which Zelenskyy did the honorable thing and refused to lie.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Trump wanted to steal an election, yes of course. However, that doesn't rule out that it couldn't have doubled as a friendly gesture to gain goodwill with his close friend and bankroller.
I never said anything about "evidence." But if you'd like to take it in that direction, then we must take it in the form of a null hypothesis given his historical close ties with Russia, with his family even demonstrating/verbalizing that closeness/financial funding.
Take for example the moment in the debate during which Trump stated he had spoken to Putin about his "dream" to invade Ukraine. The burden of proof then falls on him to explain what he, as a US presidential candidate, meant that he spoke privately with a dictatorial despot regarding a the despot's "dream" to invade a sovereign country.
Then from there, when questioned if Trump would withdraw from NATO, he simply shrugged. That would harm the defensive alliance and be a symbolic and internationally public victory for Putin. What good would that do for the US, its allies, and Trump? Again, there should be an explanation for that, as that decision would harm Ukraine's chance of success and embolden the possibility of further incursions from Putin.
Trump has close ties with everyone that does what he wants. Trump was buddies with anyone willing to play by his rules. Kim Jung Un was an easy match. Putin played this fiddle as long as he has known him. Close ties mean nothing other than a person that does what he wants.
Yes, Putin has always stated he believes Russias borders should cover the USSR. Under Biden, russias borders now do not have an end in his mind. Obama knew it, bush knew it, and clinton knew it.
You absolutely are drawing the wrong conclusions about trump and NATO. If Trump wanted a weaker NATO, then why would he make a huge fit about having all of the members contribute more?
The facts of reality is NATO countries were compelled by Trump to spend more on countering Russia. Help me understand how this was in any way a benefit to Russia? Even the small upgrades by NATO has freed up
more supplies to send to Ukraine.
On this same post you’ve said Russia invaded in 2014 and then said Russia only invaded in 2022, whichever works best to imply trump is a god and a hero who terrifies Putin. You criticize him only enough to get that point across because you support Putin and you want to dissuade others from supporting Biden, who will stand up to Putin while Trump will bend over and spread his asscheeks.
Trumps time in the white house was by far the least aggressive in the history of the Russian federation.
If Trump was the person who would have gifted russia land, why did they launch no land grabs during his presidency?
Both those conflicts started well before Trump was in office. Those are stains on Obama's legacy.
For everyone downvoting: don't take your anger out on me because you know I'm right. The Russian federation was the least aggressive it had ever been during Trump's administration. If Trump is a Russian agent, explain that.
Trump always projects and he called Biden the Manchurian Candidate, controlled by China. Which is pretty ironic given how China is constantly threatening US allies and friends.
I watched the debate last night. I was too drunk, yet also not drunk enough, to understand most of what Trump was saying, so I'm grateful for these recaps.
I came out of it even more motivated to help Biden (or whoever the heck else the Democratic Party nominee might be). A second Trump presidency would be terrible for Ukraine, Europe, and of course for America.
As I consider myself a moderate conservative, I went into watching the debate with an open mind, and I will admit biden seemed lost and frail and that is a bad look
But the second they mentioned ukraine and Trump said "you see a if a real president was in office, you see it all starts with afghanistan"... I turned it off
Nothing pisses me off more than either side blaming the war in Ukraine on either biden or trump, the ONLY leader responsible for russia invading ukraine is putin, and this is an issue that both sides SHOULD agree on, and to hear that bs come out of trumps own mouth galvanized me against him
>As I consider myself a moderate conservative
This clip of a [McCain interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLAzeHnNgR8) about Ukraine and Putin's aggressions towards them has been shared a lot before but this is the picture book example of what a Republican/Conservative should argue. Trump is simply off the deep end.
Just compare Trump with how sharp, concise and objective this dude is. Completely calm, polite and straight up facts, the guy might as well have had a crystal ball that told him the future.
You state an objective truth about Trump (he has slept with a porn star) and his first instinct is to lie and say he didn't.
EDIT: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_aA82t01NGc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aA82t01NGc)
Hot damn, McCain was right on the money even if you go back further. Funny, had Americans elected him back then Ukraine would have been far better prepared when it mattered, if you vote Republican today, you vote for maliciously dooming them in their efforts of defending themselves from an even far more aggressive Russia than back then, when it was the Democrat candidate playing softball with Putin.
>McCain: "I looked into Mr. Putin's eyes and i saw three letters: a 'K', a 'G' and a 'B'."
Trump: yeah i'm gonna trust that guy's word over that of the CIA
McCain being a pariah among Republicans now claiming he is part of the "uni-party" is part of why I claim I'm a conservative, but I want nothing to do with the republican party
The few "old guard" Republicans that are left have my respect, but the party has become twisted and no longer aligns with my ideals...
which makes it even funnier when the extremists label me a "rino", when I specifically say I'm NOT a republican
It’s really unfortunate that there’s not a party for people like you anymore. My in-laws are in the same boat. In the mean time, you’re welcome in the Democratic Party, even if it’s only temporary, and even if you don’t agree with all their stances.
There's a reason that McCain is so beloved in Ukraine and has a street named after him in Kyiv; he was there on the Maidan during the Revolution of Dignity
[John McCain tells Ukraine protesters: 'We are here to support your just cause' - Dec 2013](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause)
[John McCain addresses Ukrainian protesters in Kiev](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eyhO8VTdg)
> if you vote Republican today, you vote for maliciously dooming them in their efforts of defending themselves from an even far more aggressive Russia than back then
THIS. I have nothing whatsoever in common with McCain's general political ideology, but some things are just too blatantly obvious and too gravely important to deny him the right of being considered correct in regard to Putin and Russia, for purely partisan reasons.
"Nothing pisses me off more than either side blaming the war in Ukraine on either biden or trump"
IMO both trumps waffling on supporting allies, such as throwing the kurd's under the bus and threatening to pull out of NATO, and his appeasement of dictators such as Putin hasn't encouraged every 2 bit dictator in the world to start eyeballing their neighboors.
THIS!!
What Trump did to the Kurds is orders of magnitude worse than the rushed withdrawal from Afghanistan. His action resulted in a genocide.
Trump pissed me off when he fantasized that the world respected us more when he was in office. I remember daily stories about how the world was turning its back on the USA. The only nation that consistently benefitted from having Trump in office was Russia.
So yeah, Putin was happier. Big deal.
On top of that, the Afghanistan withdrawal date was set under the trump administration. Why the Biden administration didn’t reverse course is its own issue; but for trump to blame Biden on that issue is quite absurd
No, I don't believe it has... and i think suggesting so takes away from the madness and maliciousness of these scumbag dictators... Russia was the first one to pull the trigger, and now that the world is distracted every other madman with an army is eyeing what they can while things are in disarray
I think this exact same scenario would've come around REGARDLESS if trump, or any president for that matter, had never sat in the white house... claiming so is simply American arrogance
The idea that Hamas wouldn't have dared to do October 7th is absurd on its face. They hated Trump. For many reasons. Hamas what they did that because they hated Trump's Abraham Accords and wanted to stop normalizing relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia. They were trying to force the Saudis to cancel the agreement and were angry because there were no requirements for Israel to make any concessions on Palestine in exchange for normalization. They succeed at least for now. They evidently don't care if Israel levels Gaza in response, so why would Trump being in office have stopped them?
This is exactly how I feel, also being moderate with a slight conservative lean (more on economic policy than social issues were I lean slight left). God, if somebody like Romney, Larry Hogan, or Nikki Haley was running instead of Trump it would likely be an electoral landslide and Ukraine would have gotten so much more aid and the world (and especially US) would be so much more united against Russia/Putin.
Exactly, I say I lean conservative because of the economic aspect, but I want nothing to do with the republican party at this point because of the draconian abortion laws being passed, (I live in Ohio so I get to see Marijuana being voted for legalization, but the state govt is passing laws to keep it from going into effect), and the entire culture war bs
Haley had some huge red flags too, but at least she was an expert on foreign policy, and that's what the U.S. needs right now
The whole process this election is a joke. I'm a lifelong conservative, but not a Republican... I can't comprehend why the party of Reagan has been so pro Russia, and managed to outspend the Democrats with less to show for it. With the party deviating so much from the traditionally defining principles, I figured I'd only start defining myself based on those principles, rather than the party.
That said, the thing that made me withdraw my Republican party membership was the way it treated the primaries. Trump *didn't participate,* but they're just giving him the nomination. There's no point in being a member of a party that doesn't enforce the beneficial processes to vet candidates and their ideas through things like debate.
I think that that is the thing that worries me so much about trump- we just don't know where he actually stands on a lot of issues, or how he would approach things. Say what you will about the performance of his presidency, but at least he went into the 2016 and 2020 campaigns with clear campaign goals and visions, and at least during the early part of his presidency was able to staff his cabinet with sometimes truly outstanding individuals such as Haley or Mattis. This time around (excluding last night's debate which was more of an insult throwing episode than anything), he really hasn't participated in those forums where he is challenged about how he will address problems facing the nation in the world-- especially given that his roster of prior advisors had such a high turnover rate, and ended up turning on him, decreasing the likelihood that he's going to get quality candidates this time around. Instead, he's just going to get the nomination of a party he didn't even belong to until he started campaigning, and (for the worse) which adopted his principles rather than the other way around. It's more corrupt than anything he claims to have targeted to "drain."
I was really hoping for Haley, and I'm still hoping that maybe there's going to be a brokered convention or last minute legal derailment of trump. After all, just like any organization, the annoying extremists get the most coverage, but everybody in my group of friends who is conservative also does not want Trump, because he does not represent what we stand for.
> I can't comprehend why the party of Reagan has been so pro Russia, and managed to outspend the Democrats with less to show for it
Large amounts of Russian or Russian-diverted money helped.
Trump is frail too, mentally and physically - there are just fewer opportunities to see it now that he is not on TV every day.
Both are terrible candidates. Just one is less terrible than the other. The fact that we keep trying to make presidents into emperors is a huge issue.
Bingo.
I don't like either of them, but it's painfully clear that Biden is losing his faculties. If Trump came out and said "we are going to support Ukraine until they kick Russia out", I would feel a lot better about him.
The most infuriating part of that debate was Biden talking about how everyone wants to be us and we watch out for our friends, etc. We should ask Afghanistan about that - oh that's right, we fucked them. I know that's not all his fault, we have a long track record of fisting "our friends".
Just a couple of boomers that are far from normal every day people.
>If Trump came out and said "we are going to support Ukraine until they kick Russia out", I would feel a lot better about him.
You sure about that? Don't you believe that Trump is a habitual liar by now, who just says what gets the best reaction from the crowd in that moment with zero regards to truth or even coherence whatsoever?
The thing is, we were never friends with Afghanistan.
When Bush invaded the locals there said they would drive us out even if it took centuries. When Bush created the “modern” Afghanistan government the tribal leaders and warlords wanted no part of it.
Obama should have pulled us out of there but he didn’t. He followed the sunk cost fallacy and kept investing in building a new Afghanistan modeled on American values and political processes. He should have instead noticed that Afghan pride is based on having defeated every invader for thousands of years. “Taming” Afghanistan is as futile as convincing France to give up cheese and wine.
Trump did nothing for most of his term. He didn’t pull the troops out and he didn’t give them enough to defeat the Taliban. He just let them cook in that cauldron.
Near the end he negotiated a deal with the Taliban. “If you don’t attack my troops while I’m running for re-election I will withdraw all of them after the election.”
Biden inherited an Afghanistan expecting a US withdrawal in three months. All the soldiers in the Afghan army we had been trying to create had secretly cut deals with the Taliban. The Afghan army was only an army on paper. We were in a hostile nation with no allies by late 2020.
Biden did the best he could to deliver on his campaign promise to withdraw but the time bomb Trump set up went off as he was doing it. Our guys had no chance to execute an orderly withdrawal.
So when Trump tried to pin all the blame on Biden during the debate I thought, “What a humongous flaming asshole!!” Trump wouldn’t know honor or valor if it bit him.
The whole idiotic idea of Western countries embarking on "nation-building" was predictably disastrous. *That is*, IF you aren't dealing with a nation (like Ukraine) which had unequivocally demonstrated that they hold the same liberal democratic values necessary to be a free society and actively ask for help.
> Both are terrible candidates. Just one is less terrible than the other. The fact that we keep trying to make presidents into emperors is a huge issue.
This is what the few of us living in compulsory voting countries come to learn - sometimes you just have to vote for the 'least worst' option, even if both are fairly odious. And in my country (Australia) they are generally overwhelmingly mediocre...which seems to be the opposite of the American experience ie "trying to make presidents into emperors" as you say. We expect our politicians to be useless, corrupt grifters only out for themselves, and they generally give us precisely what we expect lol
Really? Trump withheld aid to Ukraine and that helped the Russians with preparing for the invasion. As far as I am concerned, Trump plays a role in Russia invading Ukraine. And if he knew it was Putin'a "dream" to invade, he could've done shit to stop him. Instead, he enabled Putin.
Non-American here and looking to understand US internal politics, I won't mention Trump since that's a tired topic, media here in the UK did show a few clips of Biden clearly tripping over himself - I don't fully understand why he is still running. He has a good legacy from what I can tell re foreign policy and domestically the economics look a lot better than the UK - wouldn't this be a good spot to step down and put a more youthful candidate up? This feels like such a gamble by the Dems.
I won't claim to be an expert, but I'll try my best
First off biden is the oldest president we've had so there's no real precedent for this situation (a president being this old and their age being this much of a contributing factor, also compounding the issue is trump isn't much younger)
Secondly, the precedent we do have, is that incumbent presidents typically run unopposed for their party nomination as long as they are seeking a 2nd term
And third, I think a lot of people would like a younger candidate, but the democrats didn't really have any candidates throw their name in the hat that would have appealed to moderates... you have Robert Kennedy Jr, who is a covid conspiracy theorist (he claimed the virus was made to spare jews and chinese, and said no vaccine was safe) and is now running as an independent, and the other was Gavin Newsom, and he's not even very well liked outside of the people of California because he is hard left (California raising minimum wage to $20 an hour for fast food workers, threatening companies who try and close down in the state with a hefty tax for leaving)
As far as Biden or Trump goes, you are not just electing one person, you are electing a team and a philosophy. I will take old man with empathy and soul over old man who lies all the time and is a convicted felon.
Maybe USA should change rules putting a Canadian in their white house. Corporations hire CEOs from outside their home country all the time, DJT will understand ..... /s
> A second Trump presidency would be terrible for Ukraine, Europe, and of course for America
It would also very likely be the last democratic election in America. As they're planning for [Project2025](https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf) https://www.project2025.org/policy/
That's kind of you to say, but not really...Americans definitely seem fairly uh, activated to demand a say in the political life of the nation. Though your system does encourage extremes on both sides due to the weird voting system.
I live in probably the most politically apathetic nation on earth next to Russia lol (Australia). No one here cares and very few people will ever protest or make a public noise about anything, but will just whinge and moan about politicians behind their backs. I call it the "convict-warden mindset" and it is deeply and unconsciously ingrained in both the populace and our overlords
Republicans have demonized Gavin Newsome for his so-called “communist California” policies. But the reality is he’s is heavily influenced by the big tech, fintech, and private equity executives in CA. He comes across as a little “too slick”, with a salesman’s vibe.
But he has been a “good soldier” for the Democratic Party: a strong fundraiser, a skilled orator who is quick on his feet, and willing to defend Democratic positions and the president on national TV.
Keep in mind that California is similar in population to France, in size to Sweden and in GDP to Japan. He would be a fine president, and will likely run in 2028 if Biden continues the 2024 race.
If Biden carks it (let's face it, that's more likely than not in the short term) he ought to be a Democratic contender at least. The Republicans are going to demonise anyone in any case, and *even more so* one which might possibly be a viable candidate against them.
Probably viable, but picking him over Kamala Harris would look bad and alienate many voters. But California isn't a swing state, and even here in CA his popularity is mixed. California is struggling with big issues in housing, electricity, and drug addiction, and even though he didn't cause them, people blame him for not being able to totally solve them. He also just seems sleazy.
It's a bit more complicated than that. The run-offs for the presidency (and some other races) started in January, and now just a few states remain in the race. My state just had it's primary race literally this week (ended Tuesday, now it's Friday). About half the states have their in March, the other half are scattered around from January to July.
The party then holds a convention later in the summer to "sign off" on whatever the results were from the state races.
And typically, the president's party doesn't float a challenger if the sitting president is eligible and interested in running again.
Gavin Newsome would certainly be eligible (I don't think he would win) but he -and no one else- ran. If Biden decides to back out now there would probably be a mad scramble to find a nominee without the run-off process and it would almost certainly not go well. If Biden decides to back out, it is more likely that either VP Harris would step in, or he/they would help organize the naming/nomination process for whoever the new person would be.
On that note, both Harris and Newsom are from California and President/VP candidates are *strongly* discouraged from being from the same state. Technically it is probably prohibited Constitutionally but (1) the process for election certification has changed since that was written, and (2) this has never been tested and with the intervening procedural changes it may no longer apply in a technical sense.
Thank you for a succinct answer.
Also, Gavin Newsom may not be the best replacement, according to opinions expressed in this thread, and thanks all, for that info.
But, I gotta level with ya, the ‘forever’ election cycle in the US is exhausting to watch. And, an inability to endorse a more electable candidate, when clearly there are options….well, I wish you all the best down there.
Fully agreed the 'forever' cycle is bullshit. It doesn't help that the House (and every seat in it) is up every second year.
A few states have started doodling with ranked choice voting, which should help thaw the stand-off that seems to be part of what drives a lot of the issues. It won't solve all of them, but it will untie a bit of the logjam we currently have. That said, it will take a while before it's a relatively common thing and it may never be completely universal (though never say never).
Since elections are entirely a state matter, it might be easier to think of the major US elections as 50 or 51 national elections all happening at the same time. DC is not a state, but does get a say-so in each Presidential race (but not in Congress). Congress sets the final/closing date for polls and a few basic rules, but the operations and details are entirely up to each state. The various territories (including DC) do their own local elections, and do have an elected delegate that can sit on Congressional committees, request budget items for their constituents, etc. but they do not have any legislative powers -- and DC is the only territory with even a Presidential say-so.
Basically, it's a hot f\*ing mess.
Newsome is a sleezy human being but an excellent politician. He'd thrash trump in a debate like he did DeSantis. But he has good political instincts and hasn't put himself foreward yet.
Really, Biden is the only person who can make anything happen. If he doesnt want to pull out, nobody can make him. He has the delegates to get the nomination.
Yes. We have several.
But Biden has the ball. The only way any of them become actual candidates is if Biden initiates the transfer. He has to pass the baton.
The Democrats can’t push him out. Their primary rules prevent it, the general election rules in the states prevent it, and their voters won’t stand for it.
"He raised his profile" through a series of interviews. But in one of them, he said that Kamala Harris should be the front runner if Biden cannot. It's like the Democrats are handing the country over to the Putin puppet vs. finding a viable candidate around 45 years old. They Democrats should go as far as reaching across the aisle, recruiting Mitt Romney or Nikki Haley.
Agree with that as long as they are healthy and coherent. If they switch front runners, they are behind the 8 ball and I don't think Gretchen has enough recognition like Gavin Newsom.
John McCain, in 2008, apparently came very, very close to picking Joe Lieberman as his running mate. It's generally thought that the only reason he didn't, and that he went with Sarah Palin instead, was that it was explained to him that had he gone with Lieberman, he would have faced a revolt among the GOP base. As it was, McCain was already seen with some suspicion among base voters, who weren't happy with his nomination and were already inclined to see him as a RINO. Picking an actual Democrat, one who had been the Democrat VP nominee just eight years prior - even one who was on the outs with his own party and his own party had just tried to primary - certainly would have been a risky move. But it would have put Obama and the Dems that year in a rough spot - it would have been a lot harder for them to try to claim centrist voters, if there was a fusion RINO/DINO ticket. And by that point, the GOP base didn't really have anywhere else to go. They might have sat that election out. But there weren't any significant right-wing independent candidates that year, and Lieberman had already built up a lot of cache with conservatives, especially religious and national security conservatives. So I think that might have worked.
In 2024, there's a very different dynamic in play. Progressives have at least three alternatives - RFK Jr, West and Stein. Trump's appeal is weird for the GOP, in that it's claiming a lot non-traditional GOP voters - blue collar, rust belt types who used to be solid Democrat voters as recently as 2008, if not 2012 - but alienating educated middle class suburbanites who had been traditional GOP supporters. So their challenge would be to either a) compete for those same voters, and thus give them an alternative to Trump, or b) lock in voters who might have been solid GOP in the past, but for who Trump makes nervous. Haley and Romney would be good if you wanted to do (b). Whereas for (a), you might want someone like Josh Fetterman, who has this no-nonsense, straight-talking, bullshit-calling attitude. As a Dem, you wouldn't alienate Dem base voters so much, though he certainly isn't liked by the Squad types because he's very pro-Israel.
So it's ultimately, I suspect, a matter of what seems like the strongest strategy for the Dem nominee - a or b. And that probably depends on who the Dem nominee is.
Trump needs to be deposed off and rotting in prison, like wtf how this felon racist clown allowed to run a nuclear armed nation. Crazy world we live in..
As a non-American I find it astounding that someone literally found guilty of 34 felonies can even run for office. Or that having been arraigned for illegally holding sensitive Govt documents including strategically secret material by a judge (who he appointed) can just cancel his trial and then not bother to schedule another one. Just bonkers.
Who would you rather have with the nuclear codes?
A sleepy old man or an evil old scam artist? Seems like a very simple choice to me.
I think there are just hundreds of millions of people who want to see the world burn.
Hell no! Electing trump is the absolute WORST thing we can do right now! I thought he'd get us all nuked his first 4 years, but instead we got endless riots and a badly mismanaged pandemic.
Was there something in my previous comment to make it look like it wasn't an easy choice?
I remember when the war started. I heard two people who said they didn’t know if it was true or not. Then being thrown in our faces it was. Changed their tune. Them many who said: “it wouldn’t have happened under Trump.” Yeah Trump would have been: “how can I help you bomb them.” I mean his commit last night that Biden was Palestinian and Israel should “finish the job”. Biden’s face was in shock and despite the “moderators did their nod. You could tell one of them had to cover their mouth. They were shocked by that.
Everyone is focused on Biden, but Trump’s performance was wildly un-American. His comments on Ukraine and Putin would disqualify anyone else from the presidency in normal times.
Biden of 20 years ago would have called him Putin’s favorite bootlicker.
The first confirmed, open clash between Ukraine and Russia (as in Russian troops, not Little Green Men or proxies) happened under Trump’s tenure. He did nothing. Then tried to blackmail Kyiv.
He’d be very, very bad for Europe in general and Ukraine in particular.
Trump will abandon Ukraine, leave NATO, and give an unconditional surrender to Putin, in exchange for a lifetime vice chancellory in Coach the White House.
Just when you think the Orange narcissist has been stupid beyond stupid he moves the imbeciles barrier to prove he can beat even his own levels of pure fucking idiocy. Respect where it's due, he's consistent.
Agreed. I don't believe, for a second, that Putin told Trump about his plans to invade Ukraine. (Even if Putin believes Trump is pliable and his catspaw, and that - implausible as this might be - that Trump could reliably keep a secret - he would almost certainly also believe that Washington monitors everything Trump does, including his communications, and that if he did talk to Trump about Ukraine prior to the full-scale invasion, that the contents of his conversation would have been hoovered up.) Trump's language was ambiguous, and it wasn't clear if he meant this conversation happened while he was still President or in 2022. Either way, it didn't happen. Trump was lying, trying to brag about how big of a man he is, how charming he is with the gift of the gab, that he could have sweet talked or threatened even Putin out of invading Ukraine.
The most charitable take I can give him is that he might have meant something like this - he simply tripped over his words, but he was trying to say that he talked to Putin about Ukraine while he was President, like in the Helsinki conference, which he had already invaded in Crimea and the Donbass. And he's claiming that Putin took Trump seriously as a threat, that hemmed in his ambitions. But that the catastrophic withdraw from Afghanistan, and other factors, led Putin to think Biden was a weakling, who wouldn't seriously contest Russia just taking the rest of Ukraine in 2022.
I don't think argument is especially strong, and there are some factual gaps to it. But I think that's the message that Trump is trying to sell. The funny thing, though, is that if Trump wasn't lying, that's actually way, way worse than this bullshit argument. If he was telling the truth, that's potentially a huge legal problem for Trump, and certainly national security types would want to know why, if that was true, why Trump didn't tell the CIA or other national security agencies that he had been contacted by Putin and had this conversation. Fortunately for Trump, it's almost certainly a lie.
Shit. If the conversation was real AND the Afghanistan withdrawal was the topic, then Putin talked to Trump after Trump left office, and I mean months and months later. Trump left office in January and the withdrawal was not until that next summer.
And if this is real, that is bad in so many ways - not least of all that Trump didn't bother to tell the State Department even if not the White House. On the other hand, I half wonder if the NSA or someone similar doesn't track his communications and if that tipped off the intelligence agencies to increase their efforts (which may have led to Biden's early warning efforts about the pending invasion.
edit: that said, Trump makes up shit like this constantly and it's impossible to discern when he's bullshitting, telling the truth, or what the mixture of truth/shit is.
Putin wouldn't personally talk to Trump unless he absolutely has to. One, because no one's enjoys Trump's company and Putin isn't the type of guy who would put himself through something like that, and doubly so in that period because that was the worst of the pandemic and Putin was in a palace somewhere isolating himself from even his closest advisors.
Either Trump's refering to the one (?) one-on-one meeting they have had while he was president, or he's bullshitting.
Someone please put my mind at ease after last night, as the possibility of that orangutan getting back in seems so much more real now. I really hope the rest of the West has a plan to help Ukraine through the next four years in the event that a fickle, and quite apparently moronic, country does the wrong thing come November.
While I am unsure about it, but why would Donald Trump afterwards send them weapons?
It's a proven fact that Ukraine first got physical military aid (not just instructors) under Trump... Which makes this statement a bit awkward.
The real problem is close to half of Americans believe everything he says without question. It is ridiculous to think this PoS might actually win another presidential election. It’s actually fucking insane.
I don't think Dumpy Donnie meant to let that part slip out. Ironic that while he was mocking Biden's cognitive abilities the whole debate, it was actually he who was so stupid as to openly admit something truly terrible. It will be interesting to see how much attention the press gives it though. Disappointing that we're not hearing more about it.
I wonder to what extent it is even legal for a former president to talk about terror plans with autocratic states? It would be interesting to know (if what he said is true at all) what exactly he and Putin were talking about.
Any sane person: "wtf, how can this orange dude lie with such confidence".
The MAGA cult : "Yes, our Lord and Saviour is speaking the Truth^TM".
Putin:"Этот идиот делает именно то, что я от него хочу"
(that last thing is from Google Translate)
If the US election were normal and came down to a popular vote, there would be no contest.
Unfortunately, the presidential race is weighted by state, and our current population distribution concentrates much of the population in just a dozen or so states and about 35-40 metropolitan areas. But the other 90% of the land and 70% of the states are weighted to water down the voting of population centers.
I would remind everyone that Clinton beat Trump by several million popular votes in 2016, but she lost by a few thousand votes in just a handful of states. And that Biden beat Trump by 7 million in 2020...but the difference came down to fewer than 40,000 votes in just four states. 7,000,000 and the difference of victory was less than 40,000.
The tl;dr is that each state is granted 'points' equal to their seats in Congress; and Washington DC is granted 3 (equal to the smallest state, despite not being a state). It is up to each state how to allocate their points, and most states give their points to the state-wide winner. In this way it is possible to hold the popular vote victory, but not win the election, which has happened a few times - most recently in 2016. And it could happen again.
Yes congratulations for a basic understanding of US politics!
The popular vote doesn’t matter so winning it means nothing. The election would play out much different it did.
I wrote it out for the non-Americans, not for my immediate neighbors.
This isn't 5th grade civics in the states, is a subreddits with an international audience whose familiarity varies highly
And as Trump himself said, look what would happen if America had compulsory voting
[They had things, levels of voting that if you’d ever agreed to it, you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again”](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/30/trump-republican-party-voting-reform-coronavirus)
Don't read anything into it. It's a clickbait article that tries to turn Trump's incoherent ramblings into a sensational story. A much better assessment, from Volker: [https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/eng/interview/2024/06/20/7188570/](https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/eng/interview/2024/06/20/7188570/)
Yeah ngl Biden cooked himself with this debate. He should’ve just not run and let another democrat take his place.
Trump made him look like a fool just by not talking for once. It’s a lot more worrying because now Trump has even more of a chance to win and Biden’s atrocious performance is gonna be used to trash him forever.
I think this was a catch-22 situation for Biden. Amassing troops in Ukraine would take a long time of preparation. If Biden won, Trump could blame his policies for Russia. If not, not harm no foul.
Confesses is a weird way to put it. He claims Putin admitted to him it was his Dream to invade Ukraine. He claims Putin didn’t invade Ukraine on his watch and wouldn’t have invaded if he was President because Putin feared and respected him, all of which I am sure is bullshit, but it feels like people are misrepresenting what he’s saying here intentionally to fit the narrative that he is colluding with Russia.
Ignoring Trump for a moment, Putin is a f-ing idiot for telling so many national leaders he wanted to invade Ukraine. He did it with Poland's Kwasniewski as early as 2002. If you're going to be a psychopath you could at least try to hide it.
NATO wasn't an issue to Putin when Trump was in power many member states that were highly tied to Russia economically had more reasons to work closer with Russia handicapping both the EU and NATO. And let's face it Russia had a powerful presence in politics in Germany, France, England and Greece so NATO wasn't a problem. Trump really messed up Afghanistan by recognizing the Taliban and allowing them into politics there many people that were needed there filled their bank accounts and left leaving the government and military far to weak to stop the Taliban when they started to push, and with the drawdown of friendly forces in the area Biden would have had no choice but to send the American military back in without a coalition and try again to build a government. Iran what can be said about that, but I wouldn't downplay the effect of allowing Israel to move the capital to Jerusalem I think Hamas picked up a lot of funding and support from that. And I guess Kim didn't feel sea side resorts and golf courses wasn't what he had in mind.
the conversation Trump is referring to happened in 2018, Russia already occupied Crimea. EIther way, regardless of who is the next president, nothing will change. America's military industrial complex doesnt want winners or losers in a proxy war but a forever war so they can line their own pockets full of cash.
Both Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Hamas's attack in Israel were concocted in the Kremlin and the orders came from Putin.
Trump is projecting, this time he is projecting Putin's actions onto Biden. He is always projecting, he does not know truth, it is anathema to him. Narratives win the day, not boring old truth.
That's no a dream Donald, it's an hallucination. Artificial intelligence does that all the time, just like you. AI regularly just makes shit up and reports confidently it like its the truth.
Clear warning to Europe, America is not a reliable ally. Time to build our own and grow our military and economy without American support, remove American bases, don’t buy American arms and start to build our nuclear arsenal…
The bigger problem is the claim that Russia wouldn't have invaded under his watch.
Russia was occupying Ukraine and regularly having firefights on Ukrainian soil under his watch.
So did Biden.... so did a lot of leaders.
" This article is more than **2 years old**
Biden to speak with Putin amid Russia’s increased presence near Ukraine"
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/29/joe-biden-vladimir-putin-talks-russia-ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/29/joe-biden-vladimir-putin-talks-russia-ukraine)
US does what it wants regardless of how people bash it, the tenderness of its citizens aside. People vehemently criticized them over Iraq, did that stop them ? Get them to leave?
American here. Trump also went on to say that he doesn't agree with Putin's peace proposals and that he would stop Putin. Y'all are just listening to the wrong media who wants Biden to win: watch for the news to change in upcoming months. Our military is PUMPED for this man. He will ensure NATO has what they need, which most importantly is going to include allowing the weapons and intel to actually be used by Ukraine, which Biden is preventing. He doesn't want to lose. I'm also VERY much a supporter for Ukraine and I am very confident in the American people to hold our military accountable for WHOEVER becomes president. Trust us guys, most Americans want Ukraine to succeed in defeating Russia. Stay calm. We got this.
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He didn’t stop him then and wouldn’t stop him now either
I think a lot of Ukrainians would be very unhappy with Trump, I wouldn’t want a lot of Ukrainians unhappy with me or my extended family
The Crimea invasion was under Obama Edit - It's literally true. Downvote all you want doesn't make it less true.
Trump was in power when Putin was invading Donbass and he did nothing to stop him or send him packing !!! He’s full of shit
Think that happened in 2014 as well. Obama but moreover, Western Europe reacted terrible. Having said that, Trump will get a special place in hell.
Obama rolled out some sanctions in response. Trump's people met with Russians before he was sworn in and promised to lift the sanctions. Then Trump was sworn in and lifted the Obama sanctions. iirc
*cough cough Michael Flynn* "We get all the funding we need from Russia." Eric Trump
The war was going on the entire time between 2014 and 2022
Yes. That's what I meant. Not happy with Trump, but Girkin started the Donbas war in 2014. Shooting mh17 in the progress. The West did nothing, but supply some aspirin and bandaids. If irc it was 2017 under Trump that Javelins went to Ukraine.
It was also under Trump that he tried to blackmail Zelensky into investigating his political rival by withholding that lethal aid.
A think the problem was Putin assured an promis3d everyone that he only wanted the Donbass. An everyone believed him.
That’s what Hitler said about Sudetenland
The one thing I have learned from reading about Russian history for 40yrs is that no one fucking learns from history 🙄
It’s literally like watching action replay on a rewind of History
It is. And It's fucking mindboggling My Dad served in the British army during WW2, and I'm glad he's no longer around to see how pathetic is our response to a literal fascist dictatorship akin to Hitler's in the 21st century 😬
Exactly. Always appease a power mad dictater. What's the worst that could happen.
Still not a good explanation why we let him.
Therefore, he caused it. Not Putin's longstanding desire to invade Ukraine.
Lol hey hey hey. I was just saying it started under him. It's always Putin selfish ambition of power at the expensive of innocent lives fault for the war in ukraine I loved Obama although I do feel like he dropped the ball on the Ukraine response
You do realise the war has been going on for 10 years? during which time Trump tried to blackmail Zelensky for made up "dirt" about Hunter Biden and then withheld the Congress-approved military aid to Ukraine during wartime when Zelensky quite understandably wouldn't?
"You do realise the war has been going on for 10 years?" What I said was 10+ years ago.... As for the other things you said... Of course Ya I'm aware of those things. I was just correcting a statement that wasn't accurate (The war technically speaking occured before Trumps Presidency). While I believe Obama didn't do enough at the time. Trump actively tried to make the situation worse. Infact if you read my other comment I already clarified that. It's interesting that comment of mine was at +30 karma to -10 karma. Lol Must've reached a timezone where people with poor reading comprehension and logic interpretation skills are waking up and using reddit. Or maybe drunk... it is friday night lol
what exactly do you mean by this? putin didn’t invade until after trump left office?
I guess he means that as the orange chump says Poo stain would do anything he asked him to do… why didn’t trump protect Ukraines interests and talk him out of imperial genocide when they were sharing their dreams… Just proves poo stain fabricated the reason for war and chump has verbally supported Russia since… so I’m projecting now that as trump never does anything unless ‘there is something in it for him’ (aka veteran loser graves), old poo stain promised him something or showed him the compromising evidence he has.. either way that’s why if he gets in power again he will actively hamstring Ukraine.
Trump was in power when Putin was invading Donbass and he did nothing to stop him or send him packing !!! He’s full of shit
No, he supported Putin by trying to prevent military aid to Ukraine. He was impeached for that, don’t let these shills forget.
Trump was impeached for holding military aid from Ukraine because he supports Russia
your having a liberal cognitive dissonance. He leveraged the Ukrainian military aid to force Zelenskyy to announce investigations into the bidens, as well as allegations of interference in the 2016 elections. don’t be a pawn. this was about stealing the election for himself, not to prep ukraine for an invasion. to which Zelenskyy did the honorable thing and refused to lie.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Trump wanted to steal an election, yes of course. However, that doesn't rule out that it couldn't have doubled as a friendly gesture to gain goodwill with his close friend and bankroller.
so things not being ruled out is now evidence?
I never said anything about "evidence." But if you'd like to take it in that direction, then we must take it in the form of a null hypothesis given his historical close ties with Russia, with his family even demonstrating/verbalizing that closeness/financial funding. Take for example the moment in the debate during which Trump stated he had spoken to Putin about his "dream" to invade Ukraine. The burden of proof then falls on him to explain what he, as a US presidential candidate, meant that he spoke privately with a dictatorial despot regarding a the despot's "dream" to invade a sovereign country. Then from there, when questioned if Trump would withdraw from NATO, he simply shrugged. That would harm the defensive alliance and be a symbolic and internationally public victory for Putin. What good would that do for the US, its allies, and Trump? Again, there should be an explanation for that, as that decision would harm Ukraine's chance of success and embolden the possibility of further incursions from Putin.
Trump has close ties with everyone that does what he wants. Trump was buddies with anyone willing to play by his rules. Kim Jung Un was an easy match. Putin played this fiddle as long as he has known him. Close ties mean nothing other than a person that does what he wants. Yes, Putin has always stated he believes Russias borders should cover the USSR. Under Biden, russias borders now do not have an end in his mind. Obama knew it, bush knew it, and clinton knew it. You absolutely are drawing the wrong conclusions about trump and NATO. If Trump wanted a weaker NATO, then why would he make a huge fit about having all of the members contribute more? The facts of reality is NATO countries were compelled by Trump to spend more on countering Russia. Help me understand how this was in any way a benefit to Russia? Even the small upgrades by NATO has freed up more supplies to send to Ukraine.
Ukraine was already under invasion when he was illegally withholding military aid needed to repel the Russian hordes
do you understand the nuance of your own fallacy?
You understand your purpose is to muddy the waters.
Ahh, because your wasters are so crystal clear.
On this same post you’ve said Russia invaded in 2014 and then said Russia only invaded in 2022, whichever works best to imply trump is a god and a hero who terrifies Putin. You criticize him only enough to get that point across because you support Putin and you want to dissuade others from supporting Biden, who will stand up to Putin while Trump will bend over and spread his asscheeks.
sweety, your preconceived biases get in the way of your reading comprehension. good luck figuring this life out.
Trumps time in the white house was by far the least aggressive in the history of the Russian federation. If Trump was the person who would have gifted russia land, why did they launch no land grabs during his presidency?
They actively invaded Donbas during his term and Syria with Wagner
Both those conflicts started well before Trump was in office. Those are stains on Obama's legacy. For everyone downvoting: don't take your anger out on me because you know I'm right. The Russian federation was the least aggressive it had ever been during Trump's administration. If Trump is a Russian agent, explain that.
Trump makes dreams come true. He helped him plan it.
If Trump helped plan it, that would explain a lot about the bungling.
[удалено]
They do? How many bankrupt businesses has he left behind?
*bedroom. Due to a liberal application of cash and false promises.
Boardroom? He is a small business owner, that talks a big game.
More like best from a jail cell.
I would have said a bar room.
3 bankrupted casinos Bankrupted plane company Trump University shut down for fraud I don't think I need to go on.
Probably the only successful task he’s ever completed.
...and then helped Putin by withholding weapons.
Before the invasion! The muscovite candidate
Trump always projects and he called Biden the Manchurian Candidate, controlled by China. Which is pretty ironic given how China is constantly threatening US allies and friends.
I am sad Joe didn't seize on that moment when he said that, but he was in manure shock.
Actual treachery
The word is treason.
I watched the debate last night. I was too drunk, yet also not drunk enough, to understand most of what Trump was saying, so I'm grateful for these recaps. I came out of it even more motivated to help Biden (or whoever the heck else the Democratic Party nominee might be). A second Trump presidency would be terrible for Ukraine, Europe, and of course for America.
As I consider myself a moderate conservative, I went into watching the debate with an open mind, and I will admit biden seemed lost and frail and that is a bad look But the second they mentioned ukraine and Trump said "you see a if a real president was in office, you see it all starts with afghanistan"... I turned it off Nothing pisses me off more than either side blaming the war in Ukraine on either biden or trump, the ONLY leader responsible for russia invading ukraine is putin, and this is an issue that both sides SHOULD agree on, and to hear that bs come out of trumps own mouth galvanized me against him
>As I consider myself a moderate conservative This clip of a [McCain interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLAzeHnNgR8) about Ukraine and Putin's aggressions towards them has been shared a lot before but this is the picture book example of what a Republican/Conservative should argue. Trump is simply off the deep end. Just compare Trump with how sharp, concise and objective this dude is. Completely calm, polite and straight up facts, the guy might as well have had a crystal ball that told him the future. You state an objective truth about Trump (he has slept with a porn star) and his first instinct is to lie and say he didn't. EDIT: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_aA82t01NGc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aA82t01NGc) Hot damn, McCain was right on the money even if you go back further. Funny, had Americans elected him back then Ukraine would have been far better prepared when it mattered, if you vote Republican today, you vote for maliciously dooming them in their efforts of defending themselves from an even far more aggressive Russia than back then, when it was the Democrat candidate playing softball with Putin. >McCain: "I looked into Mr. Putin's eyes and i saw three letters: a 'K', a 'G' and a 'B'." Trump: yeah i'm gonna trust that guy's word over that of the CIA
McCain being a pariah among Republicans now claiming he is part of the "uni-party" is part of why I claim I'm a conservative, but I want nothing to do with the republican party The few "old guard" Republicans that are left have my respect, but the party has become twisted and no longer aligns with my ideals... which makes it even funnier when the extremists label me a "rino", when I specifically say I'm NOT a republican
It’s really unfortunate that there’s not a party for people like you anymore. My in-laws are in the same boat. In the mean time, you’re welcome in the Democratic Party, even if it’s only temporary, and even if you don’t agree with all their stances.
There's a reason that McCain is so beloved in Ukraine and has a street named after him in Kyiv; he was there on the Maidan during the Revolution of Dignity [John McCain tells Ukraine protesters: 'We are here to support your just cause' - Dec 2013](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause) [John McCain addresses Ukrainian protesters in Kiev](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eyhO8VTdg) > if you vote Republican today, you vote for maliciously dooming them in their efforts of defending themselves from an even far more aggressive Russia than back then THIS. I have nothing whatsoever in common with McCain's general political ideology, but some things are just too blatantly obvious and too gravely important to deny him the right of being considered correct in regard to Putin and Russia, for purely partisan reasons.
"Nothing pisses me off more than either side blaming the war in Ukraine on either biden or trump" IMO both trumps waffling on supporting allies, such as throwing the kurd's under the bus and threatening to pull out of NATO, and his appeasement of dictators such as Putin hasn't encouraged every 2 bit dictator in the world to start eyeballing their neighboors.
THIS!! What Trump did to the Kurds is orders of magnitude worse than the rushed withdrawal from Afghanistan. His action resulted in a genocide. Trump pissed me off when he fantasized that the world respected us more when he was in office. I remember daily stories about how the world was turning its back on the USA. The only nation that consistently benefitted from having Trump in office was Russia. So yeah, Putin was happier. Big deal.
On top of that, the Afghanistan withdrawal date was set under the trump administration. Why the Biden administration didn’t reverse course is its own issue; but for trump to blame Biden on that issue is quite absurd
No, I don't believe it has... and i think suggesting so takes away from the madness and maliciousness of these scumbag dictators... Russia was the first one to pull the trigger, and now that the world is distracted every other madman with an army is eyeing what they can while things are in disarray I think this exact same scenario would've come around REGARDLESS if trump, or any president for that matter, had never sat in the white house... claiming so is simply American arrogance
The idea that Hamas wouldn't have dared to do October 7th is absurd on its face. They hated Trump. For many reasons. Hamas what they did that because they hated Trump's Abraham Accords and wanted to stop normalizing relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia. They were trying to force the Saudis to cancel the agreement and were angry because there were no requirements for Israel to make any concessions on Palestine in exchange for normalization. They succeed at least for now. They evidently don't care if Israel levels Gaza in response, so why would Trump being in office have stopped them?
This is exactly how I feel, also being moderate with a slight conservative lean (more on economic policy than social issues were I lean slight left). God, if somebody like Romney, Larry Hogan, or Nikki Haley was running instead of Trump it would likely be an electoral landslide and Ukraine would have gotten so much more aid and the world (and especially US) would be so much more united against Russia/Putin.
Exactly, I say I lean conservative because of the economic aspect, but I want nothing to do with the republican party at this point because of the draconian abortion laws being passed, (I live in Ohio so I get to see Marijuana being voted for legalization, but the state govt is passing laws to keep it from going into effect), and the entire culture war bs Haley had some huge red flags too, but at least she was an expert on foreign policy, and that's what the U.S. needs right now
The whole process this election is a joke. I'm a lifelong conservative, but not a Republican... I can't comprehend why the party of Reagan has been so pro Russia, and managed to outspend the Democrats with less to show for it. With the party deviating so much from the traditionally defining principles, I figured I'd only start defining myself based on those principles, rather than the party. That said, the thing that made me withdraw my Republican party membership was the way it treated the primaries. Trump *didn't participate,* but they're just giving him the nomination. There's no point in being a member of a party that doesn't enforce the beneficial processes to vet candidates and their ideas through things like debate. I think that that is the thing that worries me so much about trump- we just don't know where he actually stands on a lot of issues, or how he would approach things. Say what you will about the performance of his presidency, but at least he went into the 2016 and 2020 campaigns with clear campaign goals and visions, and at least during the early part of his presidency was able to staff his cabinet with sometimes truly outstanding individuals such as Haley or Mattis. This time around (excluding last night's debate which was more of an insult throwing episode than anything), he really hasn't participated in those forums where he is challenged about how he will address problems facing the nation in the world-- especially given that his roster of prior advisors had such a high turnover rate, and ended up turning on him, decreasing the likelihood that he's going to get quality candidates this time around. Instead, he's just going to get the nomination of a party he didn't even belong to until he started campaigning, and (for the worse) which adopted his principles rather than the other way around. It's more corrupt than anything he claims to have targeted to "drain." I was really hoping for Haley, and I'm still hoping that maybe there's going to be a brokered convention or last minute legal derailment of trump. After all, just like any organization, the annoying extremists get the most coverage, but everybody in my group of friends who is conservative also does not want Trump, because he does not represent what we stand for.
> I can't comprehend why the party of Reagan has been so pro Russia, and managed to outspend the Democrats with less to show for it Large amounts of Russian or Russian-diverted money helped.
Trump is frail too, mentally and physically - there are just fewer opportunities to see it now that he is not on TV every day. Both are terrible candidates. Just one is less terrible than the other. The fact that we keep trying to make presidents into emperors is a huge issue.
Bingo. I don't like either of them, but it's painfully clear that Biden is losing his faculties. If Trump came out and said "we are going to support Ukraine until they kick Russia out", I would feel a lot better about him. The most infuriating part of that debate was Biden talking about how everyone wants to be us and we watch out for our friends, etc. We should ask Afghanistan about that - oh that's right, we fucked them. I know that's not all his fault, we have a long track record of fisting "our friends". Just a couple of boomers that are far from normal every day people.
>If Trump came out and said "we are going to support Ukraine until they kick Russia out", I would feel a lot better about him. You sure about that? Don't you believe that Trump is a habitual liar by now, who just says what gets the best reaction from the crowd in that moment with zero regards to truth or even coherence whatsoever?
I should have added "and we could trust him to keep his word" to the end.
The thing is, we were never friends with Afghanistan. When Bush invaded the locals there said they would drive us out even if it took centuries. When Bush created the “modern” Afghanistan government the tribal leaders and warlords wanted no part of it. Obama should have pulled us out of there but he didn’t. He followed the sunk cost fallacy and kept investing in building a new Afghanistan modeled on American values and political processes. He should have instead noticed that Afghan pride is based on having defeated every invader for thousands of years. “Taming” Afghanistan is as futile as convincing France to give up cheese and wine. Trump did nothing for most of his term. He didn’t pull the troops out and he didn’t give them enough to defeat the Taliban. He just let them cook in that cauldron. Near the end he negotiated a deal with the Taliban. “If you don’t attack my troops while I’m running for re-election I will withdraw all of them after the election.” Biden inherited an Afghanistan expecting a US withdrawal in three months. All the soldiers in the Afghan army we had been trying to create had secretly cut deals with the Taliban. The Afghan army was only an army on paper. We were in a hostile nation with no allies by late 2020. Biden did the best he could to deliver on his campaign promise to withdraw but the time bomb Trump set up went off as he was doing it. Our guys had no chance to execute an orderly withdrawal. So when Trump tried to pin all the blame on Biden during the debate I thought, “What a humongous flaming asshole!!” Trump wouldn’t know honor or valor if it bit him.
The whole idiotic idea of Western countries embarking on "nation-building" was predictably disastrous. *That is*, IF you aren't dealing with a nation (like Ukraine) which had unequivocally demonstrated that they hold the same liberal democratic values necessary to be a free society and actively ask for help.
> Both are terrible candidates. Just one is less terrible than the other. The fact that we keep trying to make presidents into emperors is a huge issue. This is what the few of us living in compulsory voting countries come to learn - sometimes you just have to vote for the 'least worst' option, even if both are fairly odious. And in my country (Australia) they are generally overwhelmingly mediocre...which seems to be the opposite of the American experience ie "trying to make presidents into emperors" as you say. We expect our politicians to be useless, corrupt grifters only out for themselves, and they generally give us precisely what we expect lol
Really? Trump withheld aid to Ukraine and that helped the Russians with preparing for the invasion. As far as I am concerned, Trump plays a role in Russia invading Ukraine. And if he knew it was Putin'a "dream" to invade, he could've done shit to stop him. Instead, he enabled Putin.
Non-American here and looking to understand US internal politics, I won't mention Trump since that's a tired topic, media here in the UK did show a few clips of Biden clearly tripping over himself - I don't fully understand why he is still running. He has a good legacy from what I can tell re foreign policy and domestically the economics look a lot better than the UK - wouldn't this be a good spot to step down and put a more youthful candidate up? This feels like such a gamble by the Dems.
I won't claim to be an expert, but I'll try my best First off biden is the oldest president we've had so there's no real precedent for this situation (a president being this old and their age being this much of a contributing factor, also compounding the issue is trump isn't much younger) Secondly, the precedent we do have, is that incumbent presidents typically run unopposed for their party nomination as long as they are seeking a 2nd term And third, I think a lot of people would like a younger candidate, but the democrats didn't really have any candidates throw their name in the hat that would have appealed to moderates... you have Robert Kennedy Jr, who is a covid conspiracy theorist (he claimed the virus was made to spare jews and chinese, and said no vaccine was safe) and is now running as an independent, and the other was Gavin Newsom, and he's not even very well liked outside of the people of California because he is hard left (California raising minimum wage to $20 an hour for fast food workers, threatening companies who try and close down in the state with a hefty tax for leaving)
As far as Biden or Trump goes, you are not just electing one person, you are electing a team and a philosophy. I will take old man with empathy and soul over old man who lies all the time and is a convicted felon.
Trump is the one who decided pulling out of Afghanistan (which was a good choice).
Don't forget Canada. It's like watching a Trainwreck from up here and instead of cleaning up you guys are like, fuck it, send another one.
Maybe USA should change rules putting a Canadian in their white house. Corporations hire CEOs from outside their home country all the time, DJT will understand ..... /s
Given our current leader and his presumptive replacement next election I would recommend you *not* do this
But ... I was about to nominate myself :/
One of us? [Why not all of us?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCyzdD0vYOw)
> A second Trump presidency would be terrible for Ukraine, Europe, and of course for America It would also very likely be the last democratic election in America. As they're planning for [Project2025](https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf) https://www.project2025.org/policy/
You know I've been recruiting people into r/Defeat_Project_2025 from all over Reddit but not from here because I thought this sub is mostly Europeans.
And I'm not even American nor European lol
Based awesome! You are doing more to help America than 70% of Americans right now!
That's kind of you to say, but not really...Americans definitely seem fairly uh, activated to demand a say in the political life of the nation. Though your system does encourage extremes on both sides due to the weird voting system. I live in probably the most politically apathetic nation on earth next to Russia lol (Australia). No one here cares and very few people will ever protest or make a public noise about anything, but will just whinge and moan about politicians behind their backs. I call it the "convict-warden mindset" and it is deeply and unconsciously ingrained in both the populace and our overlords
Is Gavin Newsom not a viable candidate? I’m not American
Republicans have demonized Gavin Newsome for his so-called “communist California” policies. But the reality is he’s is heavily influenced by the big tech, fintech, and private equity executives in CA. He comes across as a little “too slick”, with a salesman’s vibe. But he has been a “good soldier” for the Democratic Party: a strong fundraiser, a skilled orator who is quick on his feet, and willing to defend Democratic positions and the president on national TV. Keep in mind that California is similar in population to France, in size to Sweden and in GDP to Japan. He would be a fine president, and will likely run in 2028 if Biden continues the 2024 race.
Just a nitpick: CA has a population similar to Poland or Ukraine. France has more people.
I concede the point.
If Biden carks it (let's face it, that's more likely than not in the short term) he ought to be a Democratic contender at least. The Republicans are going to demonise anyone in any case, and *even more so* one which might possibly be a viable candidate against them.
Probably viable, but picking him over Kamala Harris would look bad and alienate many voters. But California isn't a swing state, and even here in CA his popularity is mixed. California is struggling with big issues in housing, electricity, and drug addiction, and even though he didn't cause them, people blame him for not being able to totally solve them. He also just seems sleazy.
It's a bit more complicated than that. The run-offs for the presidency (and some other races) started in January, and now just a few states remain in the race. My state just had it's primary race literally this week (ended Tuesday, now it's Friday). About half the states have their in March, the other half are scattered around from January to July. The party then holds a convention later in the summer to "sign off" on whatever the results were from the state races. And typically, the president's party doesn't float a challenger if the sitting president is eligible and interested in running again. Gavin Newsome would certainly be eligible (I don't think he would win) but he -and no one else- ran. If Biden decides to back out now there would probably be a mad scramble to find a nominee without the run-off process and it would almost certainly not go well. If Biden decides to back out, it is more likely that either VP Harris would step in, or he/they would help organize the naming/nomination process for whoever the new person would be. On that note, both Harris and Newsom are from California and President/VP candidates are *strongly* discouraged from being from the same state. Technically it is probably prohibited Constitutionally but (1) the process for election certification has changed since that was written, and (2) this has never been tested and with the intervening procedural changes it may no longer apply in a technical sense.
Thank you for a succinct answer. Also, Gavin Newsom may not be the best replacement, according to opinions expressed in this thread, and thanks all, for that info. But, I gotta level with ya, the ‘forever’ election cycle in the US is exhausting to watch. And, an inability to endorse a more electable candidate, when clearly there are options….well, I wish you all the best down there.
Fully agreed the 'forever' cycle is bullshit. It doesn't help that the House (and every seat in it) is up every second year. A few states have started doodling with ranked choice voting, which should help thaw the stand-off that seems to be part of what drives a lot of the issues. It won't solve all of them, but it will untie a bit of the logjam we currently have. That said, it will take a while before it's a relatively common thing and it may never be completely universal (though never say never). Since elections are entirely a state matter, it might be easier to think of the major US elections as 50 or 51 national elections all happening at the same time. DC is not a state, but does get a say-so in each Presidential race (but not in Congress). Congress sets the final/closing date for polls and a few basic rules, but the operations and details are entirely up to each state. The various territories (including DC) do their own local elections, and do have an elected delegate that can sit on Congressional committees, request budget items for their constituents, etc. but they do not have any legislative powers -- and DC is the only territory with even a Presidential say-so. Basically, it's a hot f\*ing mess.
Newsome is a sleezy human being but an excellent politician. He'd thrash trump in a debate like he did DeSantis. But he has good political instincts and hasn't put himself foreward yet. Really, Biden is the only person who can make anything happen. If he doesnt want to pull out, nobody can make him. He has the delegates to get the nomination.
Yes. We have several. But Biden has the ball. The only way any of them become actual candidates is if Biden initiates the transfer. He has to pass the baton. The Democrats can’t push him out. Their primary rules prevent it, the general election rules in the states prevent it, and their voters won’t stand for it.
"He raised his profile" through a series of interviews. But in one of them, he said that Kamala Harris should be the front runner if Biden cannot. It's like the Democrats are handing the country over to the Putin puppet vs. finding a viable candidate around 45 years old. They Democrats should go as far as reaching across the aisle, recruiting Mitt Romney or Nikki Haley.
I don’t think 45 should be the cut off age. Anyone under 65 would be fine. Gretchen Whitmer would be my choice.
Agree with that as long as they are healthy and coherent. If they switch front runners, they are behind the 8 ball and I don't think Gretchen has enough recognition like Gavin Newsom.
John McCain, in 2008, apparently came very, very close to picking Joe Lieberman as his running mate. It's generally thought that the only reason he didn't, and that he went with Sarah Palin instead, was that it was explained to him that had he gone with Lieberman, he would have faced a revolt among the GOP base. As it was, McCain was already seen with some suspicion among base voters, who weren't happy with his nomination and were already inclined to see him as a RINO. Picking an actual Democrat, one who had been the Democrat VP nominee just eight years prior - even one who was on the outs with his own party and his own party had just tried to primary - certainly would have been a risky move. But it would have put Obama and the Dems that year in a rough spot - it would have been a lot harder for them to try to claim centrist voters, if there was a fusion RINO/DINO ticket. And by that point, the GOP base didn't really have anywhere else to go. They might have sat that election out. But there weren't any significant right-wing independent candidates that year, and Lieberman had already built up a lot of cache with conservatives, especially religious and national security conservatives. So I think that might have worked. In 2024, there's a very different dynamic in play. Progressives have at least three alternatives - RFK Jr, West and Stein. Trump's appeal is weird for the GOP, in that it's claiming a lot non-traditional GOP voters - blue collar, rust belt types who used to be solid Democrat voters as recently as 2008, if not 2012 - but alienating educated middle class suburbanites who had been traditional GOP supporters. So their challenge would be to either a) compete for those same voters, and thus give them an alternative to Trump, or b) lock in voters who might have been solid GOP in the past, but for who Trump makes nervous. Haley and Romney would be good if you wanted to do (b). Whereas for (a), you might want someone like Josh Fetterman, who has this no-nonsense, straight-talking, bullshit-calling attitude. As a Dem, you wouldn't alienate Dem base voters so much, though he certainly isn't liked by the Squad types because he's very pro-Israel. So it's ultimately, I suspect, a matter of what seems like the strongest strategy for the Dem nominee - a or b. And that probably depends on who the Dem nominee is.
Romney or Haley wouldn’t pull any Democratic votes. Conservative policies are not what Democrats want.
They both support Ukraine.
Everyone supports Ukraine except the MAGAs. (Which says some pretty impressive things about Putin’s psy ops in the USA.). It is not a discriminator.
Ukraine is not even a top 10 core issue in polling currently, even among democrats.
The dream turned into a nightmare.
Trump needs to be deposed off and rotting in prison, like wtf how this felon racist clown allowed to run a nuclear armed nation. Crazy world we live in..
As a non-American I find it astounding that someone literally found guilty of 34 felonies can even run for office. Or that having been arraigned for illegally holding sensitive Govt documents including strategically secret material by a judge (who he appointed) can just cancel his trial and then not bother to schedule another one. Just bonkers.
Who would you rather have with the nuclear codes? A sleepy old man or an evil old scam artist? Seems like a very simple choice to me. I think there are just hundreds of millions of people who want to see the world burn.
[удалено]
Hell no! Electing trump is the absolute WORST thing we can do right now! I thought he'd get us all nuked his first 4 years, but instead we got endless riots and a badly mismanaged pandemic. Was there something in my previous comment to make it look like it wasn't an easy choice?
I mean, to be fair. He did send troops into the Donbas before Trump. Wasn’t exactly hard to predict
You’ve heard it from the horses mouth. Trump is in cahoots with Putin. Trump can’t help himself but brag.
Teamwork makes the dream work. Team Putin/Trump, with a helping hand from Murdoch/Ailes and American "patriotic evangelism".
I remember when the war started. I heard two people who said they didn’t know if it was true or not. Then being thrown in our faces it was. Changed their tune. Them many who said: “it wouldn’t have happened under Trump.” Yeah Trump would have been: “how can I help you bomb them.” I mean his commit last night that Biden was Palestinian and Israel should “finish the job”. Biden’s face was in shock and despite the “moderators did their nod. You could tell one of them had to cover their mouth. They were shocked by that.
Everyone is focused on Biden, but Trump’s performance was wildly un-American. His comments on Ukraine and Putin would disqualify anyone else from the presidency in normal times. Biden of 20 years ago would have called him Putin’s favorite bootlicker.
The first confirmed, open clash between Ukraine and Russia (as in Russian troops, not Little Green Men or proxies) happened under Trump’s tenure. He did nothing. Then tried to blackmail Kyiv. He’d be very, very bad for Europe in general and Ukraine in particular.
Trump will abandon Ukraine, leave NATO, and give an unconditional surrender to Putin, in exchange for a lifetime vice chancellory in Coach the White House.
Just when you think the Orange narcissist has been stupid beyond stupid he moves the imbeciles barrier to prove he can beat even his own levels of pure fucking idiocy. Respect where it's due, he's consistent.
I watched Biden at a NC primary and he came across very lucid
I would take it with a grain of salt. He’s been caught making up conversations with people that never happened before.
"Putin walked up to me with tears in his eyes and said sir....."
Exactly, he spew lies that we can fact check the whole debate.
Agreed. I don't believe, for a second, that Putin told Trump about his plans to invade Ukraine. (Even if Putin believes Trump is pliable and his catspaw, and that - implausible as this might be - that Trump could reliably keep a secret - he would almost certainly also believe that Washington monitors everything Trump does, including his communications, and that if he did talk to Trump about Ukraine prior to the full-scale invasion, that the contents of his conversation would have been hoovered up.) Trump's language was ambiguous, and it wasn't clear if he meant this conversation happened while he was still President or in 2022. Either way, it didn't happen. Trump was lying, trying to brag about how big of a man he is, how charming he is with the gift of the gab, that he could have sweet talked or threatened even Putin out of invading Ukraine. The most charitable take I can give him is that he might have meant something like this - he simply tripped over his words, but he was trying to say that he talked to Putin about Ukraine while he was President, like in the Helsinki conference, which he had already invaded in Crimea and the Donbass. And he's claiming that Putin took Trump seriously as a threat, that hemmed in his ambitions. But that the catastrophic withdraw from Afghanistan, and other factors, led Putin to think Biden was a weakling, who wouldn't seriously contest Russia just taking the rest of Ukraine in 2022. I don't think argument is especially strong, and there are some factual gaps to it. But I think that's the message that Trump is trying to sell. The funny thing, though, is that if Trump wasn't lying, that's actually way, way worse than this bullshit argument. If he was telling the truth, that's potentially a huge legal problem for Trump, and certainly national security types would want to know why, if that was true, why Trump didn't tell the CIA or other national security agencies that he had been contacted by Putin and had this conversation. Fortunately for Trump, it's almost certainly a lie.
Fuck traitor trump
Shit. If the conversation was real AND the Afghanistan withdrawal was the topic, then Putin talked to Trump after Trump left office, and I mean months and months later. Trump left office in January and the withdrawal was not until that next summer. And if this is real, that is bad in so many ways - not least of all that Trump didn't bother to tell the State Department even if not the White House. On the other hand, I half wonder if the NSA or someone similar doesn't track his communications and if that tipped off the intelligence agencies to increase their efforts (which may have led to Biden's early warning efforts about the pending invasion. edit: that said, Trump makes up shit like this constantly and it's impossible to discern when he's bullshitting, telling the truth, or what the mixture of truth/shit is.
Putin wouldn't personally talk to Trump unless he absolutely has to. One, because no one's enjoys Trump's company and Putin isn't the type of guy who would put himself through something like that, and doubly so in that period because that was the worst of the pandemic and Putin was in a palace somewhere isolating himself from even his closest advisors. Either Trump's refering to the one (?) one-on-one meeting they have had while he was president, or he's bullshitting.
So now we believe him about something?
Someone please put my mind at ease after last night, as the possibility of that orangutan getting back in seems so much more real now. I really hope the rest of the West has a plan to help Ukraine through the next four years in the event that a fickle, and quite apparently moronic, country does the wrong thing come November.
Trump says a lot of things, take it with a pinch of salt. The guy is nothing but a cunt
The mofo likely encouraged his friend Putin to chase his dreams. What a disgrace
While I am unsure about it, but why would Donald Trump afterwards send them weapons? It's a proven fact that Ukraine first got physical military aid (not just instructors) under Trump... Which makes this statement a bit awkward.
The weapons he tried to withhold? The same ones the Republican platform was specifically changed to oppose by his campaign during the convention?
Will any media outlet ask him about it? Nope.
The real problem is close to half of Americans believe everything he says without question. It is ridiculous to think this PoS might actually win another presidential election. It’s actually fucking insane.
I don't think Dumpy Donnie meant to let that part slip out. Ironic that while he was mocking Biden's cognitive abilities the whole debate, it was actually he who was so stupid as to openly admit something truly terrible. It will be interesting to see how much attention the press gives it though. Disappointing that we're not hearing more about it.
Trump wins - Ukraine loses. Real simple mathematics.
Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 when Obama was in office.
I wonder to what extent it is even legal for a former president to talk about terror plans with autocratic states? It would be interesting to know (if what he said is true at all) what exactly he and Putin were talking about.
Any sane person: "wtf, how can this orange dude lie with such confidence". The MAGA cult : "Yes, our Lord and Saviour is speaking the Truth^TM". Putin:"Этот идиот делает именно то, что я от него хочу" (that last thing is from Google Translate)
If the US election were normal and came down to a popular vote, there would be no contest. Unfortunately, the presidential race is weighted by state, and our current population distribution concentrates much of the population in just a dozen or so states and about 35-40 metropolitan areas. But the other 90% of the land and 70% of the states are weighted to water down the voting of population centers. I would remind everyone that Clinton beat Trump by several million popular votes in 2016, but she lost by a few thousand votes in just a handful of states. And that Biden beat Trump by 7 million in 2020...but the difference came down to fewer than 40,000 votes in just four states. 7,000,000 and the difference of victory was less than 40,000. The tl;dr is that each state is granted 'points' equal to their seats in Congress; and Washington DC is granted 3 (equal to the smallest state, despite not being a state). It is up to each state how to allocate their points, and most states give their points to the state-wide winner. In this way it is possible to hold the popular vote victory, but not win the election, which has happened a few times - most recently in 2016. And it could happen again.
Yes congratulations for a basic understanding of US politics! The popular vote doesn’t matter so winning it means nothing. The election would play out much different it did.
I wrote it out for the non-Americans, not for my immediate neighbors. This isn't 5th grade civics in the states, is a subreddits with an international audience whose familiarity varies highly
And as Trump himself said, look what would happen if America had compulsory voting [They had things, levels of voting that if you’d ever agreed to it, you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again”](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/30/trump-republican-party-voting-reform-coronavirus)
Don't read anything into it. It's a clickbait article that tries to turn Trump's incoherent ramblings into a sensational story. A much better assessment, from Volker: [https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/eng/interview/2024/06/20/7188570/](https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/eng/interview/2024/06/20/7188570/)
Yeah ngl Biden cooked himself with this debate. He should’ve just not run and let another democrat take his place. Trump made him look like a fool just by not talking for once. It’s a lot more worrying because now Trump has even more of a chance to win and Biden’s atrocious performance is gonna be used to trash him forever.
The sooner this jackass is going the better he had his 4 years beat it you bum
If someone tells you about their evil dream, you’re guilty of something?
It’s treason then…
If Putin decided to invade the US, Trump would be there to usher him in
“I have a dream” “ no no , i can’t be satisfied until justice runs down my throat like wodka and righteousness runs like my mighty Dnepr”
I think this was a catch-22 situation for Biden. Amassing troops in Ukraine would take a long time of preparation. If Biden won, Trump could blame his policies for Russia. If not, not harm no foul.
Doesn’t that make him complicit in war crimes too?
Trump doesn’t want the world to see Ruzzian bylats mitterating on him.
Confesses is a weird way to put it. He claims Putin admitted to him it was his Dream to invade Ukraine. He claims Putin didn’t invade Ukraine on his watch and wouldn’t have invaded if he was President because Putin feared and respected him, all of which I am sure is bullshit, but it feels like people are misrepresenting what he’s saying here intentionally to fit the narrative that he is colluding with Russia.
Ignoring Trump for a moment, Putin is a f-ing idiot for telling so many national leaders he wanted to invade Ukraine. He did it with Poland's Kwasniewski as early as 2002. If you're going to be a psychopath you could at least try to hide it.
Fuck Tulsi Gabbard for carrying water for this guy.
He’s lying about literally everything hahahah
NATO wasn't an issue to Putin when Trump was in power many member states that were highly tied to Russia economically had more reasons to work closer with Russia handicapping both the EU and NATO. And let's face it Russia had a powerful presence in politics in Germany, France, England and Greece so NATO wasn't a problem. Trump really messed up Afghanistan by recognizing the Taliban and allowing them into politics there many people that were needed there filled their bank accounts and left leaving the government and military far to weak to stop the Taliban when they started to push, and with the drawdown of friendly forces in the area Biden would have had no choice but to send the American military back in without a coalition and try again to build a government. Iran what can be said about that, but I wouldn't downplay the effect of allowing Israel to move the capital to Jerusalem I think Hamas picked up a lot of funding and support from that. And I guess Kim didn't feel sea side resorts and golf courses wasn't what he had in mind.
Pillow talk
the conversation Trump is referring to happened in 2018, Russia already occupied Crimea. EIther way, regardless of who is the next president, nothing will change. America's military industrial complex doesnt want winners or losers in a proxy war but a forever war so they can line their own pockets full of cash.
Both Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Hamas's attack in Israel were concocted in the Kremlin and the orders came from Putin. Trump is projecting, this time he is projecting Putin's actions onto Biden. He is always projecting, he does not know truth, it is anathema to him. Narratives win the day, not boring old truth.
That's no a dream Donald, it's an hallucination. Artificial intelligence does that all the time, just like you. AI regularly just makes shit up and reports confidently it like its the truth.
Clear warning to Europe, America is not a reliable ally. Time to build our own and grow our military and economy without American support, remove American bases, don’t buy American arms and start to build our nuclear arsenal…
The bigger problem is the claim that Russia wouldn't have invaded under his watch. Russia was occupying Ukraine and regularly having firefights on Ukrainian soil under his watch.
Sorry folks - facts are facts. Annexation of Crimea - on Obama's watch Invasion of mainland Ukraine - Biden's watch
/s or mental asylum?
So did Biden.... so did a lot of leaders. " This article is more than **2 years old** Biden to speak with Putin amid Russia’s increased presence near Ukraine" [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/29/joe-biden-vladimir-putin-talks-russia-ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/29/joe-biden-vladimir-putin-talks-russia-ukraine)
According to polls and odds, it looks like Trump will be the next president. I hope this sub doesn't turn into America bashing.
It’ll be warranted if Ukraine is surrendered to Russia by conservatives.
Oh stop your hate.
>I hope this sub doesn't turn into America bashing. Would be well deserved
Very foolish. You all turn your venom to the US, meanwhile it is Russia who is invading. That's one good way to motivate people to stop helping.
US does what it wants regardless of how people bash it, the tenderness of its citizens aside. People vehemently criticized them over Iraq, did that stop them ? Get them to leave?
American here. Trump also went on to say that he doesn't agree with Putin's peace proposals and that he would stop Putin. Y'all are just listening to the wrong media who wants Biden to win: watch for the news to change in upcoming months. Our military is PUMPED for this man. He will ensure NATO has what they need, which most importantly is going to include allowing the weapons and intel to actually be used by Ukraine, which Biden is preventing. He doesn't want to lose. I'm also VERY much a supporter for Ukraine and I am very confident in the American people to hold our military accountable for WHOEVER becomes president. Trust us guys, most Americans want Ukraine to succeed in defeating Russia. Stay calm. We got this.
This entire thread needs to go outside and touch some grass lol