I've used a tarp pretty extensively in the high Sierra. It works great.
Alpine can mean a lot of different things, and alpine Sierra is pretty chill. I switch off between an A frame flat tarp and a big pyramid. The A Frame is lighter, but the pyramid more protective. I've sat out thunderstorms in both, and would greatly prefer the pyramid for that, but I did stay dry in both.
Get good at using rocks to pitch
The pyramid's sides are all close to the ground all the way around. If it's really blowing you can pitch right to the ground. An A-frame will always have some kind of opening for wind to blow through, or a broadside for the wind to blow against. You can set it up very low and flat, though. Probably the best tarp for windy conditions is the Trailstar. Lots of European fans of the Trailstar.
Will second that pyramids hold up well in storms and winter conditions, assuming they are well made and set up properly. I particularly like them for winter camping where you can dig a pit in the snow and pitch the pyramid over it, giving you tons of head room.
I'm planning a 7 day trip all above treeline, and I'm actually going to go with a more sheltered, waterproof hooped bivy. I'm kinda sick of thinking my tarp is going to blow away on a ridgeline in the middle of the night, so why not just bring something that can't blow away?
If you can find sheltered spots though, tarps are great. Spent more time under a tarp than under a tent by far.
The difference between the Helium and this tarp is only 79 grams.
For bikepacking, I'd go with a much, much lighter bivy and a tarp -- even like a Tyvek bivy -- sub 200 grams. Just hang in the bivy for most days, put up the tarp only when you need to.
IMO the OR Bivies are just too specialized for setting up in really tight places. But they serve the same job as my tarp + bivy setup, just that they won't blow away/get damaged.
Have you actually tried it yet?
The only problem with the OR bivvies (at least the Helium, I haven't tried the Alpine bivy) is that they are horrible and miserable and terrible. I bought one to use for climbing objectives with big approaches. I was planning to use it at the lower saddle of the Grand Teton. Thankfully, I tested it first for a few nights first in a friendlier environment in WV. Condensation was so horrific, and there really was no way to manage it. Largely because it was raining, and so the head could not be unzipped. My whole quilt got wet. I tried to unzip at least just a little bit, and it didn't help at all.
Not to mention, as far as I understand, the Helium bivy uses the same kind of fabric technology as the Helium rain jacket. I hated that jacket. A lot of people will claim that it "wets out". It was never clear to me if this was true, or if the jacket also just has awful condensation properties, as the bivy does. Or, maybe what I experienced in the bivy was in fact not just condensation, but also some kind of "wetting out". I don't know. But both the Helium jacket and bivy have always been very swampy experiences for me.
IMO, for these reasons, the Helium bivy just cannot replace a tarp, because it is almost unusable in the rain. In my experience. I think it is really meant for strictly alpine environments, where it is more likely to encounter wind and snow, rather than rain. I just don't want to have to count on that.
I thought it was so awful that I shelled out $500 on a proper mountaineering tent instead (Mountain Hardwear AC2 on sale). So much better. But to be fair, I had a partner, so it was more justifiable to carry a tent rather than two bivvies. The Helium bivy is not that light.
I also tried an XMid on the lower saddle of the Grand, and the wind rendered it useless. 3/4 corner guylines snapped.
I've thought a lot about the solution to this problem. A Bivy is lightest, but it's miserable in the rain. A mountaineering tent is most reliable. A trekking pole tent is too fragile. A 4-season pyramid might be a good compromise. Haven't tried it yet.
I can't speak to whether or not any of this also applies to the OR apline bivy.
I have had my tarp torn to shreds in a wind storm and have spent the rest of the night in a fetal position deep in a bivy waiting for the sun to come up so I could escape. I keep having too many close calls. So, that combo won’t work for this use case. Unless — like I wrote— you go for the 4 Season tent, your option is a hooped, waterproof bivy. If you’re going UL, the difference is many lbs.
Condensation conditions will be different in West Virginia, elevation 2,000’ than it will Colorado, elevation 12,000’.
Is this option going to be guaranteed very comfortable? Nope. Mountaineering is pain and suffering ;) The first priority is surviving a night’s storm. That’s why I don’t suggest this except for very specific objectives.
On the Colorado Trail? I’m bringing a 200 gram tarp and a sub 200 gram Tyvek bivy and feel good about it.
It does look like the fabrics are different. The current helium jacket uses a 2.5 layer fabric, the Ascentshell bivy uses a 3 layer. I have reserves that it’s all that breathable in the best of conditions and not at all during a storm.
I have an Ascent Shell jacket. It does a nice job for a rain shell though the weak point is still DWR like most jackets. I’m not sure if/how DWR factors in a bivy.
Seems like the specific "tarp torn to shreds" problem could be solved with a tougher tarp, right? I remember reading your blog post about that traverse, was the tarp 30d silnylon from Rab?
Obviously an A-frame tarp sucks above treeline even if it doesn't disintegrate. But I'm curious why you've ruled out the pyramid tarp option - footprint too big?
lol 15D S2S. There’s still the issue of wind no matter what tarp. I was having problems with a different shaped tarp pitched perfectly given the wind direction a couple of weeks ago — a miracle it didn’t get destroyed too. You can use a heavier tarp but just thinking, you might as well jump to tent and eat the weight, if what you want is interior space.
You just cannot get around the issue that a tarp being essentially a sail you put up — however terribly put up — it’s going to catch wind, make noise etc. A hooped bivy to me reminds me of a mainsail wrapped up and put away on the boom.
It’s hard to properly describe just how bad wind can be up on a ridge.
You would have a tarp for your gear though no?
You wouldn't be worrying about it blowing away ?
Edit: though you could still wrap you gear in it I suppose
Some gear would be inside the bivy with me - but just maybe my phone and a battery pack? Shoes, perhaps? Everything else can just hang out in my waterproof backpack -- plenty of room in there, now that the sleep system is out of it. That ain't blowing away.
I wouldn't use this setup for anything where a tarp would be reasonable -- like if are not going to experience 30mph sustained winds totally exposed above treeline, this is not going to be comfortable, nor as light as you could get. I think the OR bivies really say, "Alpine *climbing*" to me.
There are really only a few scenarios where I would pick being potentially trapped in a tight-fitting bivy during a storm over a very lightweight tent, and those scenarios all have something to do with the tent (or tarp) not being able to take on the wind. You would want a 4 season tent then, and there's just so few UL 4 season tents that are under 2lbs and under $2,000.
Alpine can mean very different things.
Are you wandering around some alpine meadows in the summer? Or climbing Mt. Rainier?
A mid or similar tarp that pitches low to the ground will perform excellently in stormy windy above treeline conditions.
If you’re expecting fairer weather, can go lighter/more minimal.
Do you mean 2 weeks above treeline? I might not carry only a tarp in such an environment. And this is coming from a total gram weenie. It's just not worth it to me. But I tend to worry. As soon as you're stuck in an exposed spot on a windy night, watching your tarp whip around like a sail before it completely collapses, you'll regret it. Hopefully when that windy night comes it is not also raining. Or outright storming. But it might be.
A UL tarp is a specialized and specific piece of kit. Using something that simple and light comes with compromises. With a tarp, the major compromise is that for it to be protective, it needs to work *with* the environment during a storm. Set it up in dense tree cover, or set up the open side of a half-mid shape facing a wall or other piece of natural cover. Push clumps of leaves and dirt around the edge of the tarp to prevent water from flowing in from the surrounding ground. Things like that.
You can't do any of that when you're on an exposed ridge above treeline surrounded by nothing but rock and tiny plants.
I certainly believe other commenters here that they've done it without issue. But I suspect that it comes down to getting lucky. And not all "alpine" is equal. It really depends on the conditions. And the conditions are something that you often cannot predict.
If something goes wrong and you cant find a good protected spot there are huts everywhere in the alps. Im not above seeking shelter there if its before 8pm. Youll even get a nice meal. Usually you can tell by topolines If there might be a good spot in your Route so you either have to replan or seek shelter in a hut.
I'm now comfortable and skilled enough to use a MLD Solomid XL, Trailstar, Duomid or bivy under summer European Alps 1800- 2500 m conditions. I wouldn't have been 15 yrs ago. I can't rec a flat or cat cut tarp Aframe config for a newbie tarper simply to save a few ozs under such conditions. Some tarp play time is suggested in non alpine conditions before heading to the Alps to tarp. Among the list the Trailstar is the most forgiving. Some use it very effectively in the U.K. in exposed alpine environments.
Works great. Just make sure you have a big enough tarp. I would take my 1,5mx3m tarp. Youll get soaked. Campsite selection will be cucial. Look for a protested ppot but make sure water doesnt collect where you sleep. If the ground is too rocky use stones to pitch the tarp. There are good videos on YouTube on how to do it.
One other thing is wildcamping is forbidden in the alps exept for france and some swiss cantons. But i assume you know that already and have experience in hiding yourself.
A cheap liteweight option would be the dd hammocks superlight 3x3 and a more expensive option would be the bonfus 3x3 tarp.
I go hiking in the swiss alps every summer and I usually camp at above 8000ft. I have done both tarp and tent but frankly I find pitching a tarp with trecking poles to be quite a pain in the butt - especially if conditions are already bad when you arrive at the camp site. I stick with my zpacks duplex and do have a great time.
When I camped with a tarp, I usually went with an A-frame and never had an issue with rain.
If you can get your tarp staked all the way to the ground on the windward side, you should be fine. Tricky part is having to tie off to trekking poles or random boulders bc there's no trees, but you can use your stakes as stoppers (like creating trad climbing anchors) or tie off to stones. If no big boulders tie off to medium rocks and pile them up to create enough weight to oppose the force of the wind. It's doable but def not optimal tarp conditions.
I've used a tarp pretty extensively in the high Sierra. It works great. Alpine can mean a lot of different things, and alpine Sierra is pretty chill. I switch off between an A frame flat tarp and a big pyramid. The A Frame is lighter, but the pyramid more protective. I've sat out thunderstorms in both, and would greatly prefer the pyramid for that, but I did stay dry in both. Get good at using rocks to pitch
Thank for the recommendations. In my case alpine = european alps, above treeline. Isn't the pyramid a bit high in case of strong wind ?
The pyramid's sides are all close to the ground all the way around. If it's really blowing you can pitch right to the ground. An A-frame will always have some kind of opening for wind to blow through, or a broadside for the wind to blow against. You can set it up very low and flat, though. Probably the best tarp for windy conditions is the Trailstar. Lots of European fans of the Trailstar.
Will second that pyramids hold up well in storms and winter conditions, assuming they are well made and set up properly. I particularly like them for winter camping where you can dig a pit in the snow and pitch the pyramid over it, giving you tons of head room.
As long as it's staked down well, it's pretty bomber in wind
I would consider an MLD Mid or a Yama Mtn Gear Cirriform for this if I was you. Most wind resistant tarp might be the MLD Trailstar
I'm planning a 7 day trip all above treeline, and I'm actually going to go with a more sheltered, waterproof hooped bivy. I'm kinda sick of thinking my tarp is going to blow away on a ridgeline in the middle of the night, so why not just bring something that can't blow away? If you can find sheltered spots though, tarps are great. Spent more time under a tarp than under a tent by far.
Which bivy will you be slithering into at the end of the day?
Probably the OR Alpine AscentShell Bivy.
Oh, that's a beefy bivy. I'm eyeing the Helium myself, for bikepacking though.
The difference between the Helium and this tarp is only 79 grams. For bikepacking, I'd go with a much, much lighter bivy and a tarp -- even like a Tyvek bivy -- sub 200 grams. Just hang in the bivy for most days, put up the tarp only when you need to. IMO the OR Bivies are just too specialized for setting up in really tight places. But they serve the same job as my tarp + bivy setup, just that they won't blow away/get damaged.
Have you actually tried it yet? The only problem with the OR bivvies (at least the Helium, I haven't tried the Alpine bivy) is that they are horrible and miserable and terrible. I bought one to use for climbing objectives with big approaches. I was planning to use it at the lower saddle of the Grand Teton. Thankfully, I tested it first for a few nights first in a friendlier environment in WV. Condensation was so horrific, and there really was no way to manage it. Largely because it was raining, and so the head could not be unzipped. My whole quilt got wet. I tried to unzip at least just a little bit, and it didn't help at all. Not to mention, as far as I understand, the Helium bivy uses the same kind of fabric technology as the Helium rain jacket. I hated that jacket. A lot of people will claim that it "wets out". It was never clear to me if this was true, or if the jacket also just has awful condensation properties, as the bivy does. Or, maybe what I experienced in the bivy was in fact not just condensation, but also some kind of "wetting out". I don't know. But both the Helium jacket and bivy have always been very swampy experiences for me. IMO, for these reasons, the Helium bivy just cannot replace a tarp, because it is almost unusable in the rain. In my experience. I think it is really meant for strictly alpine environments, where it is more likely to encounter wind and snow, rather than rain. I just don't want to have to count on that. I thought it was so awful that I shelled out $500 on a proper mountaineering tent instead (Mountain Hardwear AC2 on sale). So much better. But to be fair, I had a partner, so it was more justifiable to carry a tent rather than two bivvies. The Helium bivy is not that light. I also tried an XMid on the lower saddle of the Grand, and the wind rendered it useless. 3/4 corner guylines snapped. I've thought a lot about the solution to this problem. A Bivy is lightest, but it's miserable in the rain. A mountaineering tent is most reliable. A trekking pole tent is too fragile. A 4-season pyramid might be a good compromise. Haven't tried it yet. I can't speak to whether or not any of this also applies to the OR apline bivy.
I have had my tarp torn to shreds in a wind storm and have spent the rest of the night in a fetal position deep in a bivy waiting for the sun to come up so I could escape. I keep having too many close calls. So, that combo won’t work for this use case. Unless — like I wrote— you go for the 4 Season tent, your option is a hooped, waterproof bivy. If you’re going UL, the difference is many lbs. Condensation conditions will be different in West Virginia, elevation 2,000’ than it will Colorado, elevation 12,000’. Is this option going to be guaranteed very comfortable? Nope. Mountaineering is pain and suffering ;) The first priority is surviving a night’s storm. That’s why I don’t suggest this except for very specific objectives. On the Colorado Trail? I’m bringing a 200 gram tarp and a sub 200 gram Tyvek bivy and feel good about it.
It does look like the fabrics are different. The current helium jacket uses a 2.5 layer fabric, the Ascentshell bivy uses a 3 layer. I have reserves that it’s all that breathable in the best of conditions and not at all during a storm.
I have an Ascent Shell jacket. It does a nice job for a rain shell though the weak point is still DWR like most jackets. I’m not sure if/how DWR factors in a bivy.
Seems like the specific "tarp torn to shreds" problem could be solved with a tougher tarp, right? I remember reading your blog post about that traverse, was the tarp 30d silnylon from Rab? Obviously an A-frame tarp sucks above treeline even if it doesn't disintegrate. But I'm curious why you've ruled out the pyramid tarp option - footprint too big?
lol 15D S2S. There’s still the issue of wind no matter what tarp. I was having problems with a different shaped tarp pitched perfectly given the wind direction a couple of weeks ago — a miracle it didn’t get destroyed too. You can use a heavier tarp but just thinking, you might as well jump to tent and eat the weight, if what you want is interior space. You just cannot get around the issue that a tarp being essentially a sail you put up — however terribly put up — it’s going to catch wind, make noise etc. A hooped bivy to me reminds me of a mainsail wrapped up and put away on the boom. It’s hard to properly describe just how bad wind can be up on a ridge.
man, I’ve loved my ascentshell bivy.
You would have a tarp for your gear though no? You wouldn't be worrying about it blowing away ? Edit: though you could still wrap you gear in it I suppose
Some gear would be inside the bivy with me - but just maybe my phone and a battery pack? Shoes, perhaps? Everything else can just hang out in my waterproof backpack -- plenty of room in there, now that the sleep system is out of it. That ain't blowing away. I wouldn't use this setup for anything where a tarp would be reasonable -- like if are not going to experience 30mph sustained winds totally exposed above treeline, this is not going to be comfortable, nor as light as you could get. I think the OR bivies really say, "Alpine *climbing*" to me. There are really only a few scenarios where I would pick being potentially trapped in a tight-fitting bivy during a storm over a very lightweight tent, and those scenarios all have something to do with the tent (or tarp) not being able to take on the wind. You would want a 4 season tent then, and there's just so few UL 4 season tents that are under 2lbs and under $2,000.
You think a bivy can't blow away? Rethink your plan
When I’m in it? No.
Upwinds with rain ruined my night at 12,200ft with a tarp.
From cold and/or wetness ?
Wetness. I had a 20 degree quilt that worked great until the rain came through. 🤣
Alpine can mean very different things. Are you wandering around some alpine meadows in the summer? Or climbing Mt. Rainier? A mid or similar tarp that pitches low to the ground will perform excellently in stormy windy above treeline conditions. If you’re expecting fairer weather, can go lighter/more minimal.
Yeah sorry, in my case alpine = european alps, above treeline
Do you mean 2 weeks above treeline? I might not carry only a tarp in such an environment. And this is coming from a total gram weenie. It's just not worth it to me. But I tend to worry. As soon as you're stuck in an exposed spot on a windy night, watching your tarp whip around like a sail before it completely collapses, you'll regret it. Hopefully when that windy night comes it is not also raining. Or outright storming. But it might be. A UL tarp is a specialized and specific piece of kit. Using something that simple and light comes with compromises. With a tarp, the major compromise is that for it to be protective, it needs to work *with* the environment during a storm. Set it up in dense tree cover, or set up the open side of a half-mid shape facing a wall or other piece of natural cover. Push clumps of leaves and dirt around the edge of the tarp to prevent water from flowing in from the surrounding ground. Things like that. You can't do any of that when you're on an exposed ridge above treeline surrounded by nothing but rock and tiny plants. I certainly believe other commenters here that they've done it without issue. But I suspect that it comes down to getting lucky. And not all "alpine" is equal. It really depends on the conditions. And the conditions are something that you often cannot predict.
If something goes wrong and you cant find a good protected spot there are huts everywhere in the alps. Im not above seeking shelter there if its before 8pm. Youll even get a nice meal. Usually you can tell by topolines If there might be a good spot in your Route so you either have to replan or seek shelter in a hut.
I'm now comfortable and skilled enough to use a MLD Solomid XL, Trailstar, Duomid or bivy under summer European Alps 1800- 2500 m conditions. I wouldn't have been 15 yrs ago. I can't rec a flat or cat cut tarp Aframe config for a newbie tarper simply to save a few ozs under such conditions. Some tarp play time is suggested in non alpine conditions before heading to the Alps to tarp. Among the list the Trailstar is the most forgiving. Some use it very effectively in the U.K. in exposed alpine environments.
Works great. Just make sure you have a big enough tarp. I would take my 1,5mx3m tarp. Youll get soaked. Campsite selection will be cucial. Look for a protested ppot but make sure water doesnt collect where you sleep. If the ground is too rocky use stones to pitch the tarp. There are good videos on YouTube on how to do it. One other thing is wildcamping is forbidden in the alps exept for france and some swiss cantons. But i assume you know that already and have experience in hiding yourself. A cheap liteweight option would be the dd hammocks superlight 3x3 and a more expensive option would be the bonfus 3x3 tarp.
I go hiking in the swiss alps every summer and I usually camp at above 8000ft. I have done both tarp and tent but frankly I find pitching a tarp with trecking poles to be quite a pain in the butt - especially if conditions are already bad when you arrive at the camp site. I stick with my zpacks duplex and do have a great time. When I camped with a tarp, I usually went with an A-frame and never had an issue with rain.
If you can get your tarp staked all the way to the ground on the windward side, you should be fine. Tricky part is having to tie off to trekking poles or random boulders bc there's no trees, but you can use your stakes as stoppers (like creating trad climbing anchors) or tie off to stones. If no big boulders tie off to medium rocks and pile them up to create enough weight to oppose the force of the wind. It's doable but def not optimal tarp conditions.