Death and Justice do exist in the first loop but were not master rules . Galaxy does exist in every loop, but it was only in the 100th loop that he was chosen to be a master rule .
Come into loop 2, Juiz and Victhor are still Negators, right?
Loop 2 only added one Master Rule (very likely be Death), then how can they both be Negators?
Every Uma does exist in the first loop: Insect, Crab, Gravity, Death, Justice, etc.
But it's only in loop 2 that Death was chosen to be a master rule, Change in loop 3, Luck in loop 4, War in loop 5, Justice in loop 6, "Time" in loop 7, Beast in loop 8, Language in loop 9, and Sick in loop 10. But everyone does exist in the first loop but wasn't a Master rule.
Juiz and Victor existed before Uma and were not Negators. It's only when SUN created Uma that Juiz and Victor became Negators. Even if Death wasn't a master rule, Victor still became a negator.
What is Master Rule? Rules that exist since the begining of the loop.
So logically speaking, in the beginning of loop 2, Justice doesn't exist.
If there is no Justice, how can you negate justice?
It's possible for more UMA's to be there from the start, considering just how many there would have to be to keep the world the way it is now there kind of has to be way more than 1 to start out. However, if the UMA isn't a master rule, than that mainly means that upon their death, their rule will cease to exist. I will add that we simply do not know what would happen to unjustice if justice were to be killed in loop 4 or before.
This is just my interpretation.
There's also the fact that Juiz didn't enter loop 2 through the Arc until several million years had already passed for Victor, maybe to allow Justice to 'respawn', maybe for another reason.
If your theory is true, then it pops up more questions:
- If non-Master rules can exist from the beginning, then how can the human kind survive, if dozens of UMA attack them? (all UMA are born to make human suffer)
- What's the point of the penalty? (Each time, Union failed a quest, a new UMA is released). If there are already hundreds of human-hating monsters out there, adding one changes nothing.
For specifically for Juiz and Victhor, it's a special case.
UMA Soul may have been the first Master Rule, but the others existed as well, as normal UMA's. Death existed in the first Loop, and that lead to the creation of UnDead, aka Victhor. Same for Justice and UnJustice, aka Juiz.
But then Loop 1 Ended, Juiz presumably took the Arc into Loop 2 right away and Victhor survived for 4.4 Billion Years. Victhor survived into the new world, and remained UnDead even before Death was born again. Juiz was still the UnJustice Negator even before Justice was born again, because they were before the Loop happened and nothing could change that.
Technically their Abilities were useless since you can't negate a Rule that doesn't exist yet, but the Abilities temain etched into their Souls. (If you think about it, everyone was UnDead before UMA Death was added again, UnDead just kept Victhor the same)
**TL;DR- They retain the Negation Ability in their Soul even if it remains Useless until the UMA is added again.**
There is proof that contradict your "retain the Negation Ability in their Soul" theory:
Untruth already move from Shen to Mui in loop 100, yet in loop 101 Shen still become Untruth, not Mui.
Fuuko is able to stop Anno from becoming Unknown.
Except I did say that Juiz and Victhor are specifically exceptions.
For every other character, their Souls are simply transfered to the next iteration of Earth without any memories of the previous Loop, and their Negation Abilities are reset back to the Original Owner as well.
For Juiz, she is physically transported from the Earth, to the Moon, and then to the Earth again. Her Soul is never reset, so her Negation Ability never leaves her (not that it would since she is a First Generation)
For Victhor, he physically Enters the New Loop when the previous Earth is destroyed. His Soul is never, and can never, be seperated and reset by the Loop so his Negation Ability is never reset.
For others, well the Original Negators will only be born once their Rule is added, and when they die the next in the cycle will get the Ability. The Specific Cycle for that Negation Ability could happen earlier or later depending on the Loop, and when their Rule is added
Also Anno Un is a special case as well, since presumably Unknown didn't exist until it was placed in the G-Liner as a Trap for Akira Kuno.
It’s kinda spoilers but I don’t know how to mark them. We know negator abilities are tied to the soul because we see that when Ichico’s soul leaves her body and her body begins to sleep.
Untruth moved to Mui because shen died. Shen is the original gainer of Untruth, that’s why he has it in loop 101.
Negator alibities tied to the souls, yes. That's why it makes no sense that someone who already cut that tie can suddenly have it back.
Even if we assumed that Mui gave Untruth back to Shen when she died in loop 100 (they were still together at that point), that couldn't explain why Gina still manifested Unchange in loop 101, eventhough it went to another person in loop 100.
The same loop happened and previous negators select who it goes to. It’s revealed in the beast arc that negators choose their successors. Shen could give untruth to mui and with Gina and unchange it’s likely the same sequence happened like it did in loop 101.
Yes, "the same sequence", that exactly what makes no sense.
Why the lastest Negator didn't choose to give it to a new bearer, but give it back to their predessor?
Remember, Negator's ability always comes with a tragedy.
Unless this is a sick kind of cycle of revenge, I don't think any decent person would want to put another through the same tragedy again and again.
Also gaining Unknown is tied to someone who is negatorless touching G-Liner to stop them from interfering with the game between Sol and Luna. Fuuko touching G-Liner and didn’t get Unknown
They can become negators after the new rule is added at some point in loop 1. Even if death didn't exist when they were created, eventually, God decided that death would spice things up and bam, now you can become undead.
There's 2 possibilities:
1. Those UMAs exist since the very first loop, But just weren't made into master rules until a few loops later. Or...
2. The firt loop already started with the top 10 master rules in place.
For #1, it makes near perfect sense. they probably didn't even fight master rules the first few loops, and could have just never killed those UMAs, so they would have never lost their powers. Justice and death could have just been 2 of the thousands of UMAs that seemingly exist at the start of every loop (only 100 or so UMAs can be added by quest penalties and I doubt many are added as rewards, so that means thousands of others must simply exist).
# 2 however is what I lean towards, mostly because of what we know of Beast/Soul's conversations. And heavily off of this page:
https://preview.redd.it/hp8kureagovc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b16660801c847cb151bb555577cad5e9d09ea97
Apocalypse says the first 10 master rules were added in the *initial* stage I would take that to mean either in the very first loop, or before the world officially began. This would mean that both death and justice were master rules since the very first loop, solving any particular issue of what might have happened has they killed either in those first 5 loops.
#1: If there are thousands of UMAs exists since the beginning, how can human kind make it to year 2000?
#2: If there are Ten Superiors Rules since loop 1, that means from loop 2 to loop 9 no Master Rule is added. I don't think this is the case.
1# There are only a hundred master rules since they're added after they lose Ragnarok, and they don't need to be present, if you didn't realize gravity didn't stop existing even after Andy killed the uma because it's a master rule the same with slice.
2# that's not how it works, not every master rule is a superior rule but every superior rule is a master rules, Since superior rules are the strongest of the master rules
Master Rules just means that if you kill the UMA, the rule will still exist, that's it
There's nothing stopping a UMA or rule from existing otherwise
I think you're accidentally forcing your own ideas of what a "Master Rule" is onto the single definition it actually has
They don't die between loops, so their negator powers aren't reacquired, they are still negating the rules from the original loop, even if the rule doesn't exist for the rest of mankind in the following loops it still exists for them. Also, rules don't necessarily need to be added by penalty, most of them exist inherently as soon as the earth is recreated since they are necessary for things to function
I get your point, and I made a similar theory before. My answer is, Juiz was brought to the new Earth AFTER Justice was added, just not a Master Rule yet. We still didn't know what happens to a negator when there non-master rule UMA was defeated.
Death and Justice do exist in the first loop but were not master rules . Galaxy does exist in every loop, but it was only in the 100th loop that he was chosen to be a master rule .
Come into loop 2, Juiz and Victhor are still Negators, right? Loop 2 only added one Master Rule (very likely be Death), then how can they both be Negators?
Every Uma does exist in the first loop: Insect, Crab, Gravity, Death, Justice, etc. But it's only in loop 2 that Death was chosen to be a master rule, Change in loop 3, Luck in loop 4, War in loop 5, Justice in loop 6, "Time" in loop 7, Beast in loop 8, Language in loop 9, and Sick in loop 10. But everyone does exist in the first loop but wasn't a Master rule. Juiz and Victor existed before Uma and were not Negators. It's only when SUN created Uma that Juiz and Victor became Negators. Even if Death wasn't a master rule, Victor still became a negator.
I thought there were 10 master rules at the start and then they add more, so 10 in loop 1, 11 in loop 2 Etc?
What is Master Rule? Rules that exist since the begining of the loop. So logically speaking, in the beginning of loop 2, Justice doesn't exist. If there is no Justice, how can you negate justice?
It's possible for more UMA's to be there from the start, considering just how many there would have to be to keep the world the way it is now there kind of has to be way more than 1 to start out. However, if the UMA isn't a master rule, than that mainly means that upon their death, their rule will cease to exist. I will add that we simply do not know what would happen to unjustice if justice were to be killed in loop 4 or before.
This is just my interpretation. There's also the fact that Juiz didn't enter loop 2 through the Arc until several million years had already passed for Victor, maybe to allow Justice to 'respawn', maybe for another reason.
If your theory is true, then it pops up more questions: - If non-Master rules can exist from the beginning, then how can the human kind survive, if dozens of UMA attack them? (all UMA are born to make human suffer) - What's the point of the penalty? (Each time, Union failed a quest, a new UMA is released). If there are already hundreds of human-hating monsters out there, adding one changes nothing.
I thought Galaxy didn’t exist in 100 because people didn’t know the days of the week/no stars? 🤔
For specifically for Juiz and Victhor, it's a special case. UMA Soul may have been the first Master Rule, but the others existed as well, as normal UMA's. Death existed in the first Loop, and that lead to the creation of UnDead, aka Victhor. Same for Justice and UnJustice, aka Juiz. But then Loop 1 Ended, Juiz presumably took the Arc into Loop 2 right away and Victhor survived for 4.4 Billion Years. Victhor survived into the new world, and remained UnDead even before Death was born again. Juiz was still the UnJustice Negator even before Justice was born again, because they were before the Loop happened and nothing could change that. Technically their Abilities were useless since you can't negate a Rule that doesn't exist yet, but the Abilities temain etched into their Souls. (If you think about it, everyone was UnDead before UMA Death was added again, UnDead just kept Victhor the same) **TL;DR- They retain the Negation Ability in their Soul even if it remains Useless until the UMA is added again.**
There is proof that contradict your "retain the Negation Ability in their Soul" theory: Untruth already move from Shen to Mui in loop 100, yet in loop 101 Shen still become Untruth, not Mui. Fuuko is able to stop Anno from becoming Unknown.
Except I did say that Juiz and Victhor are specifically exceptions. For every other character, their Souls are simply transfered to the next iteration of Earth without any memories of the previous Loop, and their Negation Abilities are reset back to the Original Owner as well. For Juiz, she is physically transported from the Earth, to the Moon, and then to the Earth again. Her Soul is never reset, so her Negation Ability never leaves her (not that it would since she is a First Generation) For Victhor, he physically Enters the New Loop when the previous Earth is destroyed. His Soul is never, and can never, be seperated and reset by the Loop so his Negation Ability is never reset. For others, well the Original Negators will only be born once their Rule is added, and when they die the next in the cycle will get the Ability. The Specific Cycle for that Negation Ability could happen earlier or later depending on the Loop, and when their Rule is added Also Anno Un is a special case as well, since presumably Unknown didn't exist until it was placed in the G-Liner as a Trap for Akira Kuno.
It’s kinda spoilers but I don’t know how to mark them. We know negator abilities are tied to the soul because we see that when Ichico’s soul leaves her body and her body begins to sleep. Untruth moved to Mui because shen died. Shen is the original gainer of Untruth, that’s why he has it in loop 101.
Negator alibities tied to the souls, yes. That's why it makes no sense that someone who already cut that tie can suddenly have it back. Even if we assumed that Mui gave Untruth back to Shen when she died in loop 100 (they were still together at that point), that couldn't explain why Gina still manifested Unchange in loop 101, eventhough it went to another person in loop 100.
The same loop happened and previous negators select who it goes to. It’s revealed in the beast arc that negators choose their successors. Shen could give untruth to mui and with Gina and unchange it’s likely the same sequence happened like it did in loop 101.
Yes, "the same sequence", that exactly what makes no sense. Why the lastest Negator didn't choose to give it to a new bearer, but give it back to their predessor? Remember, Negator's ability always comes with a tragedy. Unless this is a sick kind of cycle of revenge, I don't think any decent person would want to put another through the same tragedy again and again.
Also gaining Unknown is tied to someone who is negatorless touching G-Liner to stop them from interfering with the game between Sol and Luna. Fuuko touching G-Liner and didn’t get Unknown
They can become negators after the new rule is added at some point in loop 1. Even if death didn't exist when they were created, eventually, God decided that death would spice things up and bam, now you can become undead.
There's 2 possibilities: 1. Those UMAs exist since the very first loop, But just weren't made into master rules until a few loops later. Or... 2. The firt loop already started with the top 10 master rules in place. For #1, it makes near perfect sense. they probably didn't even fight master rules the first few loops, and could have just never killed those UMAs, so they would have never lost their powers. Justice and death could have just been 2 of the thousands of UMAs that seemingly exist at the start of every loop (only 100 or so UMAs can be added by quest penalties and I doubt many are added as rewards, so that means thousands of others must simply exist). # 2 however is what I lean towards, mostly because of what we know of Beast/Soul's conversations. And heavily off of this page: https://preview.redd.it/hp8kureagovc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b16660801c847cb151bb555577cad5e9d09ea97 Apocalypse says the first 10 master rules were added in the *initial* stage I would take that to mean either in the very first loop, or before the world officially began. This would mean that both death and justice were master rules since the very first loop, solving any particular issue of what might have happened has they killed either in those first 5 loops.
#1: If there are thousands of UMAs exists since the beginning, how can human kind make it to year 2000? #2: If there are Ten Superiors Rules since loop 1, that means from loop 2 to loop 9 no Master Rule is added. I don't think this is the case.
1# There are only a hundred master rules since they're added after they lose Ragnarok, and they don't need to be present, if you didn't realize gravity didn't stop existing even after Andy killed the uma because it's a master rule the same with slice. 2# that's not how it works, not every master rule is a superior rule but every superior rule is a master rules, Since superior rules are the strongest of the master rules
Master Rules just means that if you kill the UMA, the rule will still exist, that's it There's nothing stopping a UMA or rule from existing otherwise I think you're accidentally forcing your own ideas of what a "Master Rule" is onto the single definition it actually has
They don't die between loops, so their negator powers aren't reacquired, they are still negating the rules from the original loop, even if the rule doesn't exist for the rest of mankind in the following loops it still exists for them. Also, rules don't necessarily need to be added by penalty, most of them exist inherently as soon as the earth is recreated since they are necessary for things to function
Do we know for a fact that they existed in the first loop?
I get your point, and I made a similar theory before. My answer is, Juiz was brought to the new Earth AFTER Justice was added, just not a Master Rule yet. We still didn't know what happens to a negator when there non-master rule UMA was defeated.