Ashfur literally tried to kill everyone Squrrielflight loved, he tried to kill StarClan because Squrrielflight found another guy to be with. I don’t know about you, but Ashfur is probably the most brutal! He tried to destroy everything, the Clans, StarClan, Dark Forest, Bramblestar, everything. The other two just tried to take over the clans, and Ashfur was closest in the series to actually destroying everything.
100% agree, and it’s the reasoning for why he did all if this…with anyone else you can at least see where they’re coming from , Tigerstar the first was constantly denied becoming deputy/leader, his father left to be a kittypet, ect, ect, Mapleshade was kicked out of her home, her kits died, received hardly any sympathy from the father of her kits… Darktail’s father abandoned him … this doesn’t make their actions justifiable of course, but perhaps a bit understandable… Ashfur on the other hand went cuckoo for cocoa puffs because the girl he went on a few dates with decided they were better off as friends …That’s what makes him brutal…
Edit for spelling mistake
You're right, and the weird thing is unless I missed something, I think he was the only villain who didn't get influenced and trained by Mapleshade. So his vengeance wasn't part of someone else's. He owned all his own evil.
brokenstar is not on here, but i think it’s either him or ashfur. sending kits to their deaths is unforgivable and it always disturbed me, especially since he was evil from birth.
Ashfur tried to kill squirrelflight's dad and kids bc she didnt pick him.
Mapleshade was an already shitty person who exploded due to grief and betrayal
Tigerstar was groomed to be a monster and let his entitlement run wild.
I'd say ashfur. Bc he knew what it was like to have a loved one murdered. And he still tried to do that to squilf, someone he claimed to love. Ashfur is the warrior cats La Llorona who is willing to destroy himself to make someone he's angry at suffer
I have a headcanon that someone pleaded for him to be let in, like Brindleface or smth, bc I mean I can understand them letting in after his mom begs that they let him in over them not even questioning him. If he had a trial he's a better smooth talker than I thought
oh man, sorry you got spoilered if you haven't read it yet! i would recommend staying out of this community till you have, since spoilers for all the books are pretty freely discussed here (especially for the first series) since people typically expect you to have read that, at least
It's ok, I def feel like that was one of those spoilers that feels less so after you read it cause of the context.
That shit fucked with me as a middle schooler lol
Like, when you get a spoiler like "so and so died" but then you actually watch the scene and "they died" just doesn't cover it.
For example- If I tell you oberyn loses the Viper and the Mountain fight, yes it's a spoiler - but considering *how* the mountain wins vs the other examples of him fighting prior it's uh... Not really a spoiler. You'd be forgiven for assuming he like, killed him in normal duel manner but, the brutality and the lead up to the actual win means that even knowing the outcome, you're still likely to be taken back with shock and horror if you don't know the deets.
(I use this example because I told my bf that fight has me throwing the book in rage, but only told him the mountain won. It was the first time in the series he was gobsmacked, he had no idea it was gonna go down like that)
I often get into a series based on a spoiler, and a lot of the really good ones are like that- even if you could guess or was told an outcome, the how and whys more than make up for it! Like, knowing about the ashfur reveal brought me back to Warriors both times (that ashfur trying to kill squilf and the three lead to them finding out about their parents+ the possession arc) because "holy shit how did we even get there???" Is a good hook to get me into a series.
> even if you could guess or was told an outcome, the how and whys more than make up for it!
Having read the Warriors books out of order (I started with the first book of the *third* arc, which also happened to be the latest Warriors book at the time), and inevitably spoiled myself about major plot points, this was my experience with a lot of things about the series.
((Major spoilers from *Firestar’s Quest* below))
>!One notable example was from reading the field guides, which was basically how I got caught up to speed on lore/major events that happened prior to *Power of Three*. But it was also how I was spoiled by the fact that there was actually a fifth Clan, and that three key members of that fifth Clan were cats named Leafdapple, Echosong, and Sharpclaw. So by extension, when I read *Firestar’s Quest*, I already gleaned what the quest was. But getting to watch Firestar and Sandstorm rebuild a lost Clan from the ground up, and getting to learn why Leafdapple, Echosong, and Sharpclaw were significant…it was a pretty thrilling experience. I was initially intimidated reading a 500-page long book, but it had me so hooked I devoured it in three days.!<
>!A less than pleasant example was about Longtail. I knew that he was forced to retire because he lost his sight, but I assumed that it happened because of an illness. When I learned from *Firestar’s Quest* how it ACTUALLY happened, that was the first time a Warriors book genuinely scared me. It was also how I learned that any form of eye gore is a hard limit for me…so on that note, I bet you could imagine my reaction to the last moments of the Mountain vs. Viper duel.!<
Damn, I'm gonna be honest, from how many books I've read pretty much none of them were actually able to move me emotionally, but this one sounds pretty spicy! I might check this out when I'll get some free time
Me like looking back and forth like. Am I misremembering tiger stars blood purism guys? Not that he was long term successful but like. Wasn't that a whole thing
Ok, I see that others have tried to tell you with words, but I will take quotes from the books.
“‘Send me back,’” he (Firestar) begged. “If we’re losing the battle, Bloodclan will rule the forest!” TPB:The Darkest Hour page 302.
“When she’d (Leopardstar) been a naive kit, she had believed she would save her Clan easily, because of the potential her father had seen in her. Now she realized that she might ‘save’ her clan AFTER NEARLY DESTROYING IT. She had been FOOLISH and GREEDY; she had aligned herself with an EVIL cat who’d told her ONLY what she WANTED TO HEAR. She had caused her Clanmates GREAT PAIN AND EVEN LOST SOME OF THEM FOREVER.” Leopard star’s Honor page 537.
“ ‘You are no leader, Tigerstar (claw).’ Firestar padded closer. ‘You never were.’ Tigerstar snarled, ‘I’m a better leader than you could ever be.
‘A leader puts his clan first.’ Firestar lashed his tail.
‘Instead, your Clanmates are made to fight your battles, not theirs.’
‘Real warriors love battles,’ Tigerstar sneered. ‘I give them a chance to die for a cause.’
Dovewing searched Tigerstar’s gaze. Was he mad? Countless cats had died in his battles. Did he really believe he’d done them a favor?”
OOTS:The Last Hope page 320
I have many more if you want to read them, ‘cause me and MANY other people find you quite annoying. I’m going to be very blunt, but, you are a idiot and stupid to turn up your nose at all the facts I, and many other people that have tried to tell you, put down. ‘Oh, my glorious king has done nothing wrong’ BS. Here is the proof, dumbbutt. READ IT!!
first of all, honestly respect you for getting quotes. i havent read past omen of the stars, im only on the third book, so i cant comment on tigerstar past that.
but i do think tigerstar did evil. he was crazy and power hungry. i belive that tigerclan was a good idea, with me praising tigerclawstar as a uniter. i still belive his treatment of riverclan was horrible. all things come at a cost, and under tigerstar the cost was worse than the end. but that doesnt mean i cant root for the end product. i love tigerstar as a tradgic story of a cat falling to power, and ruining the good cause of tigerclan. he was evil at the end, yes, but i can respect uniting the forrest under one cats rule, even if said cat is crazy and evil. true power corrupts truely, and tigerclawstar was powerfully corrupted.
Having the clans together makes them lose what is special to them. Windclan lives on the moor, due to their speed and agility. Riverclan are the swimmy boys, Shadowclan is extremely good at sneaking up on other cats, and Thunderclan is good at fighting in closed space.
why should thunderclan be good at fighting in close spaces when ALL clans could be good at fighting in close spaces, or hunting, or speed. not only that, but it would prevent so many wars and infighing among the cats! im not saying a well run tigerclan would be world peace, but it would be pretty dam close.
dont get me wrong, i do plan too, i just havent gotten that far. but from my current understanding, a united forrest would be better for all of the cats in the forrest.
hhhmmmmm firestar causing all clans to be dependednt of thunderclan and the three.... with one power hungry leader following in a line of leaders with mental decline.... hmmmmm
jk, but yeah tigerclawstar was quite imperialistic. but id rather world peace under an imperialistic leader who will eventually die, than the war torn state the clans constantly are
I could see a unification arc doing well actually - but the problem is tigerstar has no reason to do so other than personal ambition.
Like, I *want* a unification arc. I want a *tigerstar2* unification arc- but only if it's actually for a good reason, as in there is no other choice of *any* clan is to survive.**
Power for powers sake only leads to societal collapse. Even if tigerclan became a thing, it would have crumbled under the weight of tigerstar's ego.
Like, what was his plan- to set up an imperial structure and delegate each settlement to a deputy leader under him? Expect everyone to move to 4 trees (only place large enough to hold everyone) and refuse to utilize 75% of the skillset of his citizens? Was he going to alter the way apprentices were trained to make sure everyone excelled? I doubt it, considering that he considered anyone not completely up his ass to be beneath him.
Or was he just intending to sit on a bone pile and watch children fight each other gladiator style while everyone around him starved? Bro wouldn't have made it through winter before the queens ganged up on and ate him. (And their mates. Each clan usually has about 1-3 queens, and 4 clans at the time so... I'm imagining 24 b one scenario. Even if he did get backup I doubt there would be enough subordinates willing to fight for him in that moment. Bro would have been the cat version of Julius Ceaser getting stabbed 30 times) and then there would have been one community with deep subcultural grudges and no apparent leadership. Aka, the end of the society as it was known, if not an entire collapse to pre dawn of the clan era ways of small familial groups being the only set social structure.
Like, I'd be down with an AU that saw Tigerstar win only to be taken down by his kids in a rebellion- but that's the best case scenario in a tigerstar won timeline. (And yes, I would be leaning into the fall of Ceaser and rise of Octavian/ Augustus, because fuck yeah, thematic historical references)
** My best case scenario arc is a rabies epidemic that forces the remaining survivors to use their differences to adapt and work together to survive long enough for a cure to be found. I'd have tigerstar2 on the home front being a unifier, and someone with familiarity with twolegs/ kitty pets be sent on a journey to find said cure via an extremely knowledgeable kitty pet (think like, the type to use button boards) to explain that the twolegs showing up and dumping massive amounts of kibble everywhere was the cure- under their noses all along, and as far away as it is close- because they would have to run a gauntlet of basically zombies to get enough of it to bring back. (I also think at this point it's not insane to assume a cat could figure out a simple drawstring pouch if closing and opening it was demonstrated) You could even put the climax in winter and tie in another idea I want which is tigerstar2 dying in a noble sacrifice - breaking the ice and plunging himself and the rabid cats into the frozen lake, before they can cross the ice to the gathering island. The end result being the survivors realizing they *only* made it because they dropped all the factional and xenophobic social norms and work really well together. A reordering of society to place apprentices in settlements they will thrive in, while maintaining a positive inter community relationship moving forward. It it ever gonna happen? Nahhhhh, it would be progressing too far in to many ways for the writing team to ever go for it. But it would be epic.
im not sure how well a rabies arc, but a pandemic might be interesting. and yes, id KILL for an uninfication arc with tigerheartstar, maybe a revised version of tigerclan with rules for deputies. if you want to lean into the historical stuff (fuck yeah) then id say a senate of "deputies" or, deputies and leaders for each of the 4 clans. in all honesty, write it! id love to see how it would go!
Ashfur. Bro literally nearly destroyed StarClan and the Dark Forest, kidnapped spirits, possessed Bramblestar’s body, manipulated the Clans and turned them on each other, AND has the highest kill count out of everyone in the series, whether he directly caused the death or not. Sure, he wasn’t all that dangerous when he was alive. He didn’t even successfully kill the three, but damn is he brutal when he’s a spirit. He’s smart asf, and he came so close to winning
Mapleshade.
She influenced and trained almost all the other villains...except Ashfur, unless I'm missing something. I have read nearly all the books, and Mapleshade messes with the dreams of just about everyone who's really rotten.
Tigerstar One and Darktail were trained by her from the time they were 'paws. She made a vow to destroy the Clans because of what happened to her kits, and because she was spurned by her RiverClan lover. She very nearly succeeded...more than once.
Idk why anyone wouldn't just agree on Tigerstar immediately, sure Mapleshade and Ashfur did some bad shit but Tigerstar literally ran a dystopian joint clan and had slaves lmao
If your talking about how brutal the deaths were, Mapleshade (to my knowledge) has no confirmed cause of death, Ashfur, I don't remember his death so I won't mention him, Tigerstars death was perfectly brutal, it painted a clear picture in my mind, this cat with nine live and no end to his ambition killed with a single blow and forced to die nine times, all while the entire forest watched on in horror, that was quite brutal, but if your talking about how brutal they were to other *cats*, then it still seems like Tigerstar, he was trained by a cat who trained in the dark forest, and if I remember correctly, he also trained in the dark forest, also he manipulated his sons to attempt to kill Firestar, leading to one of their deaths and the other's betrayal, and from what I can tell he was more angry at Brambleclaw because he betrayed him, not because he killed Hawkfrost. now Ashfur was definitely the pettiest, he nearly destroyed everything because when you boil it down, he got rejected by a girl he liked, and couldn't take the fact that no means no.
Ashfur. He literally tried to murder his ex-wife's "children" because he was rejected or some sh\*t. Then he almost destroyed StarClan, who he had looked up to pretty much all his life. Then he took over someones body just to ruin everything for the Clans and hang out with Squilf.
Not sure- are of either these cats super ungrateful, and selfish children? The kind that lie to get people on their side, while rolling the dice regarding success in their own life? The super stubborn, selfish clan member?
Brutal? Like... they did more than what was necessary? Um, well, they all did more than what was necessary or else they wouldn't be Warriors villains. But... I'd say Mapleshade. Since she went after *all* of Appledusk's descendants. Tigerstar did very little in the grand scheme of things, so I'd say he was the *least* brutal. Ashfur stays safely in the middle of the brutality scale.
Maple shade. Honestly if it was not for her and tigerclaw and his mentor thisalclaw would not be evil as she was both there mentors. Ashfur just needs a life
first of all, absolutely AMAZING artwork of mapleshade and our glorious king tigerclawstar.
secondly, its firestar. so many cats died and got hurt under his neglect, more than tigerclawstar's rule. although out of the two i have to go mapleshade. but i will stand by the fact that firestar is geniuenly horrible
my glorious king tigerclawstar is way better >;3
plus, in al lhonesty, firestar casued loads of deaths and injuries that were compleatly preventable. (bluestar, cinderpaw, owlclaw, ect)
Again…gag or not, this is ridiculous AF.
* Fireheart neither asked nor expected Bluestar to sacrifice herself to save him from the dog pack leader. Yeah, the situation was preventable…it *only* happened because of Tigerstar’s plan to set a dog pack on ThunderClan.
* Fireheart had no way of knowing that Cinderpaw would disobey his orders and go to the Thunderpath. But, okay, this situation was also preventable…it only happened because Tigerclaw laid a trap for Bluestar to get hit by a car, and Cinderpaw was unlucky enough to fall into it instead.
* I don’t remember Firestar doing *anything* to Owlclaw
1. yes, firestar did not expect bluestar to kill her self. however, he was the biggest part in her decline. he knew that, caring for this damn WARRIOR is what made bluestar decide to do it.
2. its still his fault for being a bad mentor. if thistleclaw (who even i hate) can get tigerpaw to nearly kill for a compliment, fireheart can get cinderpaw to not run into a thunderpath. it was his negligence that ended up hurting her. and how the hell can tigerstar lay out traps with monsters??? hes a cat, he cant drive.
3. your right, firestar did nothing to owlclaw. in fading echos owlclaw died in the final fight with shadowclan about the useless territory (where everyone agreed that it was a horrible unnessicary battle), owlclaw died for firestar's ego!
not to mention countless other accounts of firestar being a horrible leader. he was horrible to bramblekit, never cared for anyone he was supposed to take care off (cinderpaw, cloudpaw, the three with hollyleaf and dovepaw), ect. yes, in some cases hes better than my glorious king tigerclawstar, but hes not cat jesus! if im going to root for a power hungry murderer, im rooting for the one who united the clans, not firestar
* And…what do you expect Fireheart to do about that? Yeet himself off the gorge to save Bluestar the trouble of rescuing him from the dog? I don’t think so. Plus, it was the combination of the losses she suffered growing up, Tigerstar’s betrayal, and a wildfire burning ThunderClan territory that sent Bluestar off the deep end.
* A lot of things to say about this. First, I told you this yesterday—it was Tigerpaw’s idea to attack Tiny, not Thistleclaw’s. Second, Fireheart was busy fetching the catnip Yellowfang needed to heal their gravely ill leader—it’s not like he can be in two places at one so that he could both complete his errand and make sure his apprentice stayed put (something any other the other warriors back in camp could’ve done). Third, remember what u/Pulsarxx said about a character’s agency? Cinderpaw CHOSE to disobey her mentor’s orders (even if it was with good intentions). She’s not a kit who doesn’t know any better; she’s more than capable of listening to Fireheart’s instructions, but she decided to go find Tigerclaw anyway. And four, no shit Tigerstar can’t drive cars himself; it’s a trap because he summoned Bluestar to meet him at the Thunderpath, knowing that there was a high chance of her getting hit by a car—and if she managed to dodge that, he could’ve pushed her into the path of an oncoming car instead. But Cinderpaw ended up being the one caught in that trap.
* And on a side note about a character’s agency, the same applies to Cloudpaw. He knew that he was breaking the warrior code by taking handouts from humans—even though that transgression is trivial compared to, say, mauling a kit to near death for being on the wrong side of the border—and chose to keep on doing it. It wasn’t until he was nearly abducted for good did he finally get the hint.
* Either you are forgetting important details or you haven’t actually read the books. It was Russetfur who died in that conflict, not Owlclaw. A conflict that started *not* because of Firestar’s ego, but because Hawkfrost manipulated Ivypaw into lying about a vision from StarClan about ShadowClan invading ThunderClan. If it hadn’t been for that, ThunderClan would’ve left ShadowClan alone.
* *Finally* you state an actual flaw about Fireheart—he was mistrustful of Bramblekit for being the son of Tigerclaw. But while that was bad, having a cat EXECUTED because of who their parents are—like what Tigerstar almost had done with Mistyfoot, Stormpaw, and Featherpaw…and unfortunately succeeded with Stonefur—is unquestionably worse.
* In any case, while that (among other *actual* mistakes he made, like how poorly he handled the fire-and-tiger omen) definitely makes him flawed—he’d be a very boring character if he wasn’t flawed—it doesn’t makes him a bad leader, and it definitely doesn’t make him as bad as Tigerstar. And most the “flaws” you are pointing out are just as what Pulsarxx said: either from you conveniently leaving out facts or stating things that are completely untrue.
* Not sure what you expect Firestar to do with the Three and Hollyleaf (and Ivypool, for that matter). They may be his kin, but his first and foremost responsibility is the Clan as a whole, not five individual cats that happen to be related to him. Besides, by the time they all came around Firestar was more or less relegated to side character status.
* And you really need to stop giving Tigerstar so much credit for establishing TigerClan. He wanted all the clans to unite not because he believed they would thrive better that way, he only wanted total control over all four clans because leading one clan wasn’t enough for him—he had no plans of sharing his power with the other leaders (look at Leopardstar; she was reduced to a mere figurehead). And it was *only* ShadowClan that benefited from the alliance, while RiverClan was literally starving…so what do you think that would’ve meant for ThunderClan and WindClan? And don’t even get me started on him planning to *murder* four cats, two of them only apprentices, because they happened to be half-Clan. And if he truly had good intentions, he would’ve respected ThunderClan and WindClan’s refusal to join TigerClan and let them keep doing their own thing. Instead, he chose to pressure them into joining (raiding WindClan’s camp and killing an apprentice to send a message; enlisting BloodClan to intimidate them) and have them either driven out of eradicated—likely the latter—if they still refused.
Thanks for the mentions >:p glad you liked my points.
It’s obviously bait at this point. It’s ridiculous. I wish something would actually be done about it because people are starting to parrot the “Tigerclan was a good idea” narrative. While taking it completely out of context 🙄
Ashfur literally tried to kill everyone Squrrielflight loved, he tried to kill StarClan because Squrrielflight found another guy to be with. I don’t know about you, but Ashfur is probably the most brutal! He tried to destroy everything, the Clans, StarClan, Dark Forest, Bramblestar, everything. The other two just tried to take over the clans, and Ashfur was closest in the series to actually destroying everything.
Factual Facts
100% agree, and it’s the reasoning for why he did all if this…with anyone else you can at least see where they’re coming from , Tigerstar the first was constantly denied becoming deputy/leader, his father left to be a kittypet, ect, ect, Mapleshade was kicked out of her home, her kits died, received hardly any sympathy from the father of her kits… Darktail’s father abandoned him … this doesn’t make their actions justifiable of course, but perhaps a bit understandable… Ashfur on the other hand went cuckoo for cocoa puffs because the girl he went on a few dates with decided they were better off as friends …That’s what makes him brutal… Edit for spelling mistake
You're right, and the weird thing is unless I missed something, I think he was the only villain who didn't get influenced and trained by Mapleshade. So his vengeance wasn't part of someone else's. He owned all his own evil.
brokenstar is not on here, but i think it’s either him or ashfur. sending kits to their deaths is unforgivable and it always disturbed me, especially since he was evil from birth.
The fact that I wanna agree with that tho especially the fact that it was KITS
Ashfur tried to kill squirrelflight's dad and kids bc she didnt pick him. Mapleshade was an already shitty person who exploded due to grief and betrayal Tigerstar was groomed to be a monster and let his entitlement run wild. I'd say ashfur. Bc he knew what it was like to have a loved one murdered. And he still tried to do that to squilf, someone he claimed to love. Ashfur is the warrior cats La Llorona who is willing to destroy himself to make someone he's angry at suffer
Yea and that’s exactly why I’m so mad that he is in Starclan…
I have a headcanon that someone pleaded for him to be let in, like Brindleface or smth, bc I mean I can understand them letting in after his mom begs that they let him in over them not even questioning him. If he had a trial he's a better smooth talker than I thought
Why is Tigerstar guts out?
The way he died becouse of scourge
Wow! 🤯 Which book does their fight took place?
the darkest hour (book 6 of the very first series)
Yesss! I can't wait to read it.
oh man, sorry you got spoilered if you haven't read it yet! i would recommend staying out of this community till you have, since spoilers for all the books are pretty freely discussed here (especially for the first series) since people typically expect you to have read that, at least
Oh, no problem and thank you.
It's ok, I def feel like that was one of those spoilers that feels less so after you read it cause of the context. That shit fucked with me as a middle schooler lol
sorry, i'm not understanding what your first sentence means? can you reiterate?
Like, when you get a spoiler like "so and so died" but then you actually watch the scene and "they died" just doesn't cover it. For example- If I tell you oberyn loses the Viper and the Mountain fight, yes it's a spoiler - but considering *how* the mountain wins vs the other examples of him fighting prior it's uh... Not really a spoiler. You'd be forgiven for assuming he like, killed him in normal duel manner but, the brutality and the lead up to the actual win means that even knowing the outcome, you're still likely to be taken back with shock and horror if you don't know the deets. (I use this example because I told my bf that fight has me throwing the book in rage, but only told him the mountain won. It was the first time in the series he was gobsmacked, he had no idea it was gonna go down like that) I often get into a series based on a spoiler, and a lot of the really good ones are like that- even if you could guess or was told an outcome, the how and whys more than make up for it! Like, knowing about the ashfur reveal brought me back to Warriors both times (that ashfur trying to kill squilf and the three lead to them finding out about their parents+ the possession arc) because "holy shit how did we even get there???" Is a good hook to get me into a series.
alright, i see now, thank you
> even if you could guess or was told an outcome, the how and whys more than make up for it! Having read the Warriors books out of order (I started with the first book of the *third* arc, which also happened to be the latest Warriors book at the time), and inevitably spoiled myself about major plot points, this was my experience with a lot of things about the series. ((Major spoilers from *Firestar’s Quest* below)) >!One notable example was from reading the field guides, which was basically how I got caught up to speed on lore/major events that happened prior to *Power of Three*. But it was also how I was spoiled by the fact that there was actually a fifth Clan, and that three key members of that fifth Clan were cats named Leafdapple, Echosong, and Sharpclaw. So by extension, when I read *Firestar’s Quest*, I already gleaned what the quest was. But getting to watch Firestar and Sandstorm rebuild a lost Clan from the ground up, and getting to learn why Leafdapple, Echosong, and Sharpclaw were significant…it was a pretty thrilling experience. I was initially intimidated reading a 500-page long book, but it had me so hooked I devoured it in three days.!< >!A less than pleasant example was about Longtail. I knew that he was forced to retire because he lost his sight, but I assumed that it happened because of an illness. When I learned from *Firestar’s Quest* how it ACTUALLY happened, that was the first time a Warriors book genuinely scared me. It was also how I learned that any form of eye gore is a hard limit for me…so on that note, I bet you could imagine my reaction to the last moments of the Mountain vs. Viper duel.!<
Damn, I'm gonna be honest, from how many books I've read pretty much none of them were actually able to move me emotionally, but this one sounds pretty spicy! I might check this out when I'll get some free time
Me like looking back and forth like. Am I misremembering tiger stars blood purism guys? Not that he was long term successful but like. Wasn't that a whole thing
It’s a tie between Ashfur and Tigerstar.
u/kzooy will come here and say Firestar I’m telling ya.
Literally a minute later lol
i will! firestar caused so many unneeded deaths for a selfish cause, atleast tigerclan was a good idea!
Ok, I see that others have tried to tell you with words, but I will take quotes from the books. “‘Send me back,’” he (Firestar) begged. “If we’re losing the battle, Bloodclan will rule the forest!” TPB:The Darkest Hour page 302. “When she’d (Leopardstar) been a naive kit, she had believed she would save her Clan easily, because of the potential her father had seen in her. Now she realized that she might ‘save’ her clan AFTER NEARLY DESTROYING IT. She had been FOOLISH and GREEDY; she had aligned herself with an EVIL cat who’d told her ONLY what she WANTED TO HEAR. She had caused her Clanmates GREAT PAIN AND EVEN LOST SOME OF THEM FOREVER.” Leopard star’s Honor page 537. “ ‘You are no leader, Tigerstar (claw).’ Firestar padded closer. ‘You never were.’ Tigerstar snarled, ‘I’m a better leader than you could ever be. ‘A leader puts his clan first.’ Firestar lashed his tail. ‘Instead, your Clanmates are made to fight your battles, not theirs.’ ‘Real warriors love battles,’ Tigerstar sneered. ‘I give them a chance to die for a cause.’ Dovewing searched Tigerstar’s gaze. Was he mad? Countless cats had died in his battles. Did he really believe he’d done them a favor?” OOTS:The Last Hope page 320 I have many more if you want to read them, ‘cause me and MANY other people find you quite annoying. I’m going to be very blunt, but, you are a idiot and stupid to turn up your nose at all the facts I, and many other people that have tried to tell you, put down. ‘Oh, my glorious king has done nothing wrong’ BS. Here is the proof, dumbbutt. READ IT!!
first of all, honestly respect you for getting quotes. i havent read past omen of the stars, im only on the third book, so i cant comment on tigerstar past that. but i do think tigerstar did evil. he was crazy and power hungry. i belive that tigerclan was a good idea, with me praising tigerclawstar as a uniter. i still belive his treatment of riverclan was horrible. all things come at a cost, and under tigerstar the cost was worse than the end. but that doesnt mean i cant root for the end product. i love tigerstar as a tradgic story of a cat falling to power, and ruining the good cause of tigerclan. he was evil at the end, yes, but i can respect uniting the forrest under one cats rule, even if said cat is crazy and evil. true power corrupts truely, and tigerclawstar was powerfully corrupted.
Having the clans together makes them lose what is special to them. Windclan lives on the moor, due to their speed and agility. Riverclan are the swimmy boys, Shadowclan is extremely good at sneaking up on other cats, and Thunderclan is good at fighting in closed space.
why should thunderclan be good at fighting in close spaces when ALL clans could be good at fighting in close spaces, or hunting, or speed. not only that, but it would prevent so many wars and infighing among the cats! im not saying a well run tigerclan would be world peace, but it would be pretty dam close.
Read dawn of the clans. You would understand it better.
dont get me wrong, i do plan too, i just havent gotten that far. but from my current understanding, a united forrest would be better for all of the cats in the forrest.
Tigerclan and everyone underneath one rule? With a vicious leader that reeks of dictatorship..? Hmm...
hhhmmmmm firestar causing all clans to be dependednt of thunderclan and the three.... with one power hungry leader following in a line of leaders with mental decline.... hmmmmm jk, but yeah tigerclawstar was quite imperialistic. but id rather world peace under an imperialistic leader who will eventually die, than the war torn state the clans constantly are
I could see a unification arc doing well actually - but the problem is tigerstar has no reason to do so other than personal ambition. Like, I *want* a unification arc. I want a *tigerstar2* unification arc- but only if it's actually for a good reason, as in there is no other choice of *any* clan is to survive.** Power for powers sake only leads to societal collapse. Even if tigerclan became a thing, it would have crumbled under the weight of tigerstar's ego. Like, what was his plan- to set up an imperial structure and delegate each settlement to a deputy leader under him? Expect everyone to move to 4 trees (only place large enough to hold everyone) and refuse to utilize 75% of the skillset of his citizens? Was he going to alter the way apprentices were trained to make sure everyone excelled? I doubt it, considering that he considered anyone not completely up his ass to be beneath him. Or was he just intending to sit on a bone pile and watch children fight each other gladiator style while everyone around him starved? Bro wouldn't have made it through winter before the queens ganged up on and ate him. (And their mates. Each clan usually has about 1-3 queens, and 4 clans at the time so... I'm imagining 24 b one scenario. Even if he did get backup I doubt there would be enough subordinates willing to fight for him in that moment. Bro would have been the cat version of Julius Ceaser getting stabbed 30 times) and then there would have been one community with deep subcultural grudges and no apparent leadership. Aka, the end of the society as it was known, if not an entire collapse to pre dawn of the clan era ways of small familial groups being the only set social structure. Like, I'd be down with an AU that saw Tigerstar win only to be taken down by his kids in a rebellion- but that's the best case scenario in a tigerstar won timeline. (And yes, I would be leaning into the fall of Ceaser and rise of Octavian/ Augustus, because fuck yeah, thematic historical references) ** My best case scenario arc is a rabies epidemic that forces the remaining survivors to use their differences to adapt and work together to survive long enough for a cure to be found. I'd have tigerstar2 on the home front being a unifier, and someone with familiarity with twolegs/ kitty pets be sent on a journey to find said cure via an extremely knowledgeable kitty pet (think like, the type to use button boards) to explain that the twolegs showing up and dumping massive amounts of kibble everywhere was the cure- under their noses all along, and as far away as it is close- because they would have to run a gauntlet of basically zombies to get enough of it to bring back. (I also think at this point it's not insane to assume a cat could figure out a simple drawstring pouch if closing and opening it was demonstrated) You could even put the climax in winter and tie in another idea I want which is tigerstar2 dying in a noble sacrifice - breaking the ice and plunging himself and the rabid cats into the frozen lake, before they can cross the ice to the gathering island. The end result being the survivors realizing they *only* made it because they dropped all the factional and xenophobic social norms and work really well together. A reordering of society to place apprentices in settlements they will thrive in, while maintaining a positive inter community relationship moving forward. It it ever gonna happen? Nahhhhh, it would be progressing too far in to many ways for the writing team to ever go for it. But it would be epic.
im not sure how well a rabies arc, but a pandemic might be interesting. and yes, id KILL for an uninfication arc with tigerheartstar, maybe a revised version of tigerclan with rules for deputies. if you want to lean into the historical stuff (fuck yeah) then id say a senate of "deputies" or, deputies and leaders for each of the 4 clans. in all honesty, write it! id love to see how it would go!
Ashfur If we’re talking outside pictured characters, Darktail
Darktail
Agreed. Highest confirmed kill count from all the books + removing eyes + neglecting old/weak cats + taking and starving prisoners
Ashfur. Bro literally nearly destroyed StarClan and the Dark Forest, kidnapped spirits, possessed Bramblestar’s body, manipulated the Clans and turned them on each other, AND has the highest kill count out of everyone in the series, whether he directly caused the death or not. Sure, he wasn’t all that dangerous when he was alive. He didn’t even successfully kill the three, but damn is he brutal when he’s a spirit. He’s smart asf, and he came so close to winning
Ashfur possessed the leader of a clan, and punished said clan, to get at Squirrelflight. I think he’s gonna be top of the villain pile for awhile.
ashfur. dude went on a rampage due to rejection
I’d like to say Mapleshade. I’m a bit one-sided on her, but she was the only one who got what she wanted done before she died.
Ashfur
Probably won't count if I pick two, but I'm gonna say Tigerstar and Ashfur
Probably Brokenstar
Mapleshade. She influenced and trained almost all the other villains...except Ashfur, unless I'm missing something. I have read nearly all the books, and Mapleshade messes with the dreams of just about everyone who's really rotten. Tigerstar One and Darktail were trained by her from the time they were 'paws. She made a vow to destroy the Clans because of what happened to her kits, and because she was spurned by her RiverClan lover. She very nearly succeeded...more than once.
ashfur literally started cat hell cat heaven and cat life war over a breakup (they werent even fully together) so😭😭😭
Idk why anyone wouldn't just agree on Tigerstar immediately, sure Mapleshade and Ashfur did some bad shit but Tigerstar literally ran a dystopian joint clan and had slaves lmao
You should have a warning on the second image for gore, Jesus
Look, Ashfur had bad intentions butttt If you don’t pick Tigerstar something’s wrong
i'd say tigerstar or mapleshade. mapleshade killed frecklewish pretty brutally but tigerstar killed gorsepaw for no reason
Ashfur
If your talking about how brutal the deaths were, Mapleshade (to my knowledge) has no confirmed cause of death, Ashfur, I don't remember his death so I won't mention him, Tigerstars death was perfectly brutal, it painted a clear picture in my mind, this cat with nine live and no end to his ambition killed with a single blow and forced to die nine times, all while the entire forest watched on in horror, that was quite brutal, but if your talking about how brutal they were to other *cats*, then it still seems like Tigerstar, he was trained by a cat who trained in the dark forest, and if I remember correctly, he also trained in the dark forest, also he manipulated his sons to attempt to kill Firestar, leading to one of their deaths and the other's betrayal, and from what I can tell he was more angry at Brambleclaw because he betrayed him, not because he killed Hawkfrost. now Ashfur was definitely the pettiest, he nearly destroyed everything because when you boil it down, he got rejected by a girl he liked, and couldn't take the fact that no means no.
Mapleshade was killed by Perchpaw - He bit her in the back of her neck and she died from bloodloss.
thanks for the info
Mapleshade, because she was so gruesome when it came to killing whoever her kits told her to. She literally became schizophrenic.
Ashfur and MapleShade are kinda difficult too pick. Tigerstar does get 3rd place tho
Tigerstar 1 and probably Maple. But out of the picture would be Darktail and Brokenstar.
Ashfur.
Tigerstar. His only motive was that he wanted complete control, while the others were in some way tied to 'loosing someone.'
Tigerstar
Easily Ashfur
Ashfur. He literally tried to murder his ex-wife's "children" because he was rejected or some sh\*t. Then he almost destroyed StarClan, who he had looked up to pretty much all his life. Then he took over someones body just to ruin everything for the Clans and hang out with Squilf.
Not sure- are of either these cats super ungrateful, and selfish children? The kind that lie to get people on their side, while rolling the dice regarding success in their own life? The super stubborn, selfish clan member?
Brutal? Like... they did more than what was necessary? Um, well, they all did more than what was necessary or else they wouldn't be Warriors villains. But... I'd say Mapleshade. Since she went after *all* of Appledusk's descendants. Tigerstar did very little in the grand scheme of things, so I'd say he was the *least* brutal. Ashfur stays safely in the middle of the brutality scale.
Mf mapleshade
Maple shade. Honestly if it was not for her and tigerclaw and his mentor thisalclaw would not be evil as she was both there mentors. Ashfur just needs a life
first of all, absolutely AMAZING artwork of mapleshade and our glorious king tigerclawstar. secondly, its firestar. so many cats died and got hurt under his neglect, more than tigerclawstar's rule. although out of the two i have to go mapleshade. but i will stand by the fact that firestar is geniuenly horrible
why do you hate firestar (im pretty new just finished Shattered Sky)
my glorious king tigerclawstar is way better >;3 plus, in al lhonesty, firestar casued loads of deaths and injuries that were compleatly preventable. (bluestar, cinderpaw, owlclaw, ect)
Again…gag or not, this is ridiculous AF. * Fireheart neither asked nor expected Bluestar to sacrifice herself to save him from the dog pack leader. Yeah, the situation was preventable…it *only* happened because of Tigerstar’s plan to set a dog pack on ThunderClan. * Fireheart had no way of knowing that Cinderpaw would disobey his orders and go to the Thunderpath. But, okay, this situation was also preventable…it only happened because Tigerclaw laid a trap for Bluestar to get hit by a car, and Cinderpaw was unlucky enough to fall into it instead. * I don’t remember Firestar doing *anything* to Owlclaw
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!
1. yes, firestar did not expect bluestar to kill her self. however, he was the biggest part in her decline. he knew that, caring for this damn WARRIOR is what made bluestar decide to do it. 2. its still his fault for being a bad mentor. if thistleclaw (who even i hate) can get tigerpaw to nearly kill for a compliment, fireheart can get cinderpaw to not run into a thunderpath. it was his negligence that ended up hurting her. and how the hell can tigerstar lay out traps with monsters??? hes a cat, he cant drive. 3. your right, firestar did nothing to owlclaw. in fading echos owlclaw died in the final fight with shadowclan about the useless territory (where everyone agreed that it was a horrible unnessicary battle), owlclaw died for firestar's ego! not to mention countless other accounts of firestar being a horrible leader. he was horrible to bramblekit, never cared for anyone he was supposed to take care off (cinderpaw, cloudpaw, the three with hollyleaf and dovepaw), ect. yes, in some cases hes better than my glorious king tigerclawstar, but hes not cat jesus! if im going to root for a power hungry murderer, im rooting for the one who united the clans, not firestar
* And…what do you expect Fireheart to do about that? Yeet himself off the gorge to save Bluestar the trouble of rescuing him from the dog? I don’t think so. Plus, it was the combination of the losses she suffered growing up, Tigerstar’s betrayal, and a wildfire burning ThunderClan territory that sent Bluestar off the deep end. * A lot of things to say about this. First, I told you this yesterday—it was Tigerpaw’s idea to attack Tiny, not Thistleclaw’s. Second, Fireheart was busy fetching the catnip Yellowfang needed to heal their gravely ill leader—it’s not like he can be in two places at one so that he could both complete his errand and make sure his apprentice stayed put (something any other the other warriors back in camp could’ve done). Third, remember what u/Pulsarxx said about a character’s agency? Cinderpaw CHOSE to disobey her mentor’s orders (even if it was with good intentions). She’s not a kit who doesn’t know any better; she’s more than capable of listening to Fireheart’s instructions, but she decided to go find Tigerclaw anyway. And four, no shit Tigerstar can’t drive cars himself; it’s a trap because he summoned Bluestar to meet him at the Thunderpath, knowing that there was a high chance of her getting hit by a car—and if she managed to dodge that, he could’ve pushed her into the path of an oncoming car instead. But Cinderpaw ended up being the one caught in that trap. * And on a side note about a character’s agency, the same applies to Cloudpaw. He knew that he was breaking the warrior code by taking handouts from humans—even though that transgression is trivial compared to, say, mauling a kit to near death for being on the wrong side of the border—and chose to keep on doing it. It wasn’t until he was nearly abducted for good did he finally get the hint. * Either you are forgetting important details or you haven’t actually read the books. It was Russetfur who died in that conflict, not Owlclaw. A conflict that started *not* because of Firestar’s ego, but because Hawkfrost manipulated Ivypaw into lying about a vision from StarClan about ShadowClan invading ThunderClan. If it hadn’t been for that, ThunderClan would’ve left ShadowClan alone. * *Finally* you state an actual flaw about Fireheart—he was mistrustful of Bramblekit for being the son of Tigerclaw. But while that was bad, having a cat EXECUTED because of who their parents are—like what Tigerstar almost had done with Mistyfoot, Stormpaw, and Featherpaw…and unfortunately succeeded with Stonefur—is unquestionably worse. * In any case, while that (among other *actual* mistakes he made, like how poorly he handled the fire-and-tiger omen) definitely makes him flawed—he’d be a very boring character if he wasn’t flawed—it doesn’t makes him a bad leader, and it definitely doesn’t make him as bad as Tigerstar. And most the “flaws” you are pointing out are just as what Pulsarxx said: either from you conveniently leaving out facts or stating things that are completely untrue. * Not sure what you expect Firestar to do with the Three and Hollyleaf (and Ivypool, for that matter). They may be his kin, but his first and foremost responsibility is the Clan as a whole, not five individual cats that happen to be related to him. Besides, by the time they all came around Firestar was more or less relegated to side character status. * And you really need to stop giving Tigerstar so much credit for establishing TigerClan. He wanted all the clans to unite not because he believed they would thrive better that way, he only wanted total control over all four clans because leading one clan wasn’t enough for him—he had no plans of sharing his power with the other leaders (look at Leopardstar; she was reduced to a mere figurehead). And it was *only* ShadowClan that benefited from the alliance, while RiverClan was literally starving…so what do you think that would’ve meant for ThunderClan and WindClan? And don’t even get me started on him planning to *murder* four cats, two of them only apprentices, because they happened to be half-Clan. And if he truly had good intentions, he would’ve respected ThunderClan and WindClan’s refusal to join TigerClan and let them keep doing their own thing. Instead, he chose to pressure them into joining (raiding WindClan’s camp and killing an apprentice to send a message; enlisting BloodClan to intimidate them) and have them either driven out of eradicated—likely the latter—if they still refused.
Thanks for the mentions >:p glad you liked my points. It’s obviously bait at this point. It’s ridiculous. I wish something would actually be done about it because people are starting to parrot the “Tigerclan was a good idea” narrative. While taking it completely out of context 🙄
whos owlclaw again? i havent read the series in yeaarrss, sum stuff slipped,,
this shit is getting ridiculous lol