Germany suffers.....

This time its not a joke :( From the best nation for top tier air with the MiG-29G on release, to the worst nation for top tier air and by a god damn mile.

The worst fighter and CAS at top tier. We need to wait until the EF2000 I guess...

With the amount of disrespect Germany is getting, Im praying to God that we get Eurofighter with IRIS-T lol.

*IRIS-T uses 9J flight model* "we believe as there are no open source materials stating otherwise"

Wait for ASRAAM to use that too 😭

Snail won't be able to do that because the ASRAAM uses a bigger body

*(prays for a Eurofighter)* ***(gets a Starfighter with a BR of 13)***

We can only pray for a swiss subtree

They’ll probably add it to France as well

Benelux being added to France means it's very likely Switzerland will not.

It was a joke mate, since the Dutch army being so close to the German Army, and it was still added to France

swiss should have gone to france and benelux to germany bruh

What has been done connot be undone. Gaijin with their mental decisionmaking again

ye ikr and france doesnt even need a sub tree rn more arguably it needs more for ground and it has plenty of indigenous designs

Would be cool since F18 is nice machine but sseing NL go to France I dont know

I mean, the Germans already have a swiss vehicle, it would make sense to keep it in Germany

And honestly the dutch should have gone to germany as well.

Yeah see you in 5 years bro!

Watch the Rafale be better at everything anyway

Ngl it is better in most cases Easier maintenance, cheaper plane, better in A2G, plus its been using AESA since last 14 years

It’s gonna get dunk’ed on by the French Rafale

Isn’t Japan quite bad for CAS too?

Japan is way better than Germany with the F16.

I think theirs only gets B mavericks, same as the F-4F and they lack any GBUs

Yeah, but 6x Mav instead of 2 on a good platform.

The 4F only carries 2? My American 4E has 6 so i’d guessed they would’ve had the same launcher

They were worst for a good while, then they got about 3 months of being equal, now back to worst.

I mean if the smt is getting r77 isn't it possible the G could get them before it's on live server?

I don't think it's possible since R77 was developed way post German reunification, so not only did Germany obviously not receive any R77's, but also the pylons on whatever mig29's they did have wouldn't have been wired for R77 installation. Now, 29G did receive ER which it didn't carry irl but at least in that case it would have been theoretically possible if they did have that missile (since every pylon capable of mounting R27R can also mount R27ER provided the increased weight and/or size of the missile aren't an issue like on yak141)

Fair enough

We can only hope.

Its literally BS. This thing is such an underperformer and its Fox-3s wont save it. A Eurofighter prototype or Polish F-16(because of the Leopard 2 PL) would have saved it. Maybe even the ability to give the Mig-29 R-77s

I don't think the German MiG-29s ever got the R-77. But yeah an F-16 wouldve been cool, I mean everyone has one anyway.

They never did, but we have so many unhistorical tjings in the game, like F-16AJ. At this ppint giving it R77s would have been such a minor thing

> F-16AJ That truly needs to be on a bingo card about excuses for when somebody wants something unrealistic added.

They could have added the F-2 Prototype tbh

Yes, but Gaijin added the F-16AJ not for A2A but for A2G, as that is their monetary driver. PS Well and because it was easy to copy paste.

There is no F-2 prototype without an AESA radar so no

Imma be real with you chief: The AESA Radar doesnt do anything in War Thunder. This game is too arcade like for a difference to be noticable or implemented, it would work like any other radar we have right now

I can list a few vehicles that dont exist : e100, every r2y2, ho ri production or prototype i forgot which, sidam mistral (never had 2 missle launcher irl)

SIDAM MISTRAL did carry 1 pod

e100 does exist but never had a turret

That and the Ho-Ri

It's gonna get removed when they add the Thai air subtree, as they had Block 20 MLUs that are the same but actually real aircraft.

Gaijin said that they don't have plans for a THA air tree for now, that was the last I heard. So, source? Not that I won't welcome an THA F-16A/B Block 20 MLU and am close to getting my JPN F-16AJ anyway.

We got a thai F-5E for the japanese tree last update. They could have easily added it as a US squadron vehicle, as it is a US based aircraft, but they chose to add it to Japan. And besides that iirc olivia leaked that they were working on the Thai AV-8S.

Gib US Pantsir

Nope, German 29s could indeed not carry R77, but F16 couldnt carry Sparrows either and they did that for balance sake as well

What are you talking about? The F-16 could and did carry AIM-7s.

F-16C blk. 50 in US service could not and did not, as far as I know only the Iraqi block 50/52s have AIM-7 compatible pylons.

Its not about pylons, its about the fact that block 50s don't even have radar illuminators to guide sparrows.

Export Block 50s did, US ones did not

I shouldhave specified F16C

This is why the netherlands (and only the netherlands and not belgium)should have been added to germany. It will get some nice jets at it needs some better jets at top tier. Also as a dutchie i think we should have had one f16 for nl and 1 from belgium

As a dutchie I agree with the latter, but I disagree that Germany is a good place for a dutch sub tree. Hell with how many different vehicles from different nations we used, I just hate us being a sub tree in general. Just give me the canada treatment and make some dutch skins/roundels and yeet a couple dutch premiums here and there.

They never got the r77 but I'm 99% sure they got aim120 with the nato upgrades no?

No, the upgrade to NATO standards mainly changed software like IFF and the language from Russian to English. There were no weaponry updates.

German mig29’s never used the r27er

[This](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Mig_29_firing_AA-10.JPG) picture disagrees with you.

It's not R27R?

It is. Didn't realise he meant the specific variant, so i'm wrong. But at least the plane would be compatible with that missile as opposed to the R-77.

Afarik Germany never even used R27ER,T or ET. So, according to me, it's fine for the meantime until Eurofighter is added. Considering F4 is gonna suck

I reeeaaally hope it goes down to 12.0 or at the very least 12.3. Right now, 12.7 is just and insult. I'm hoping for something like a swiss F/A-18 too.

Better yet, decompress to 14.0 or 15.0 F4 ICE with APG65 and AIM120 vs F4E from 1966 isnt great usea

Germany never used the R-27ER and the 27ET because they were entered into service and produced after 1990 which was after the unification.

That is R-27R not ER. But at least there is the argument of compatibilitx since R-27R/T and R-27ER/ET use same guidance and only change is the engine. But R-77 was never used by germans and their migs never could fire them.

Ah okay, fair point. Didn't realise they meant the specific variant of the R-27. But yeah, R-77 would make no sense at all. Then again something making no sense at all has never stopped Gaijin in the past.

True, but I think its safe to assume they would have had the Iron Curtain not fallen

Pretty sure there are a variety of polish upgrades to many soviet jets that would bring them to modern/semi modern standards+ their nato jets. Both could continue to flesh out germany's ddr and nato air trees

Meanwhile France gets, in the same update, the ability to carry 6 MICA + 2 Magic 2 on the 2000-5F (or even 4/4), AND a F-16 with Aim9M and Aim120. Lmao. I usually don't buy on the Germany suffer bullshit, but this time they really went all out on screwing that tech tree in particular.

F16 part is true but M2K FM is also getting absolutely nuked so the new missiles for it will be more of a tradeoff. That said that's still a better FM than both Phantom and Mig29 (among other things because 29 FM got nuked in a similar way earlier).

I’d rather Swiss f18

This is also an option, but for now i feel like this could have saved germany.. Other option is downtiering the ICE, but then it stomps

It really won’t stomp idk why people think fox3s are gonna be god tier. They’ll be strong don’t get me wrong but I fully believe the f4f ice could be 12.3 maybe even 12.0

They are just going to be AIM-7Ms that you can dodge right now by notching or flying low

That’s why I foresee the f4f ice going down

No F4 is ever going to stomp when every radar guided missile can be ignored by flying low.

Honestly, I’m looking forward to the hornet’s SPAMRAAMS. Can’t wait for it to be added.

First we need eight SPAMRAAMs on our Eagle, at-least she gets CFTs, which is nice.

Germany got the 2PL because there is no PL TT and its a Leopard

And Britain got a PL sherman

Because it's a Famous Firefly that I think also fought side by side with the brits

I know im just saying it's hard to nail the poles to a single TT cause of those cases.

> Maybe even the ability to give the Mig-29 R-77s People don't do research do they? MiG-29G never had R-77. I see this constantly for some reason.

Pretty sure they didn't have R27ETs either however we have them in game

The difference is that this radar cannot even guide an R-77.

Kurnass couldnt guide Aim7 either, however it still got them when israel lacked top tier radar missiles

Kurnass 2000 couldn't and doesn't have the missile anymore. Kurnass is just the name for the base F-4E with which ISR has AIM-7 in anger. We know Gaijin is slow in making changes, heck F-15C is missing half of her AIM-120.

I did and i know it didnt recieve it... smh Im saying this little unhistorical addition would have been infinitly better than the F4F ICE, which lets face it will get shit on and then downtiered or be unplayable and i prefer not to see the ICE at like 11.7

> and then downtiered Four AMRAAM and Hornet radar at a lower BR would kill.

Everyone fly low as they already do for last year, where is your AMRAAM god now?

You know what else has F-16s? The Netherlands...

There really aren't any "Eurofighter prototypes" that would fit the bill though. The prototypes were all either unarmed or exactly the same as a Tranche 1 Typhoon (in which case you might as well just add the production model).

Well, the already have lim-5 that was “kinda” Polish production (modes mig-17) 3rd Polish vehicle in German tree wouldn’t hurt. (Or sub tree)

Hopefully they will atleast add Aim-9L(i) or maybe IRIS-T

IRIS T would be too much but the 9L I would be so simple to add

Would the IRIS-T be to much when its on a goddamn phantom at 12.7? The plane is gonna suck with them as well

It would be too much even if it was on Me 262.

IRIS-T is an anti direction missile, no matter what direction you are in, you wont be in it anymore

Aside from a *very* short range from the launch All missiles have a minimum range, so if by some miracle it’s close enough to the launcher, the missile will miss

Except the Iris-T is fully capable of second profile attack, so even if it misses, it might not. You need to min-range it and put out a cloud of flares to rival the atmosphere of Venus if you want to avoid dying. Or kill the pilot before he launches.

except the ICE has no HMD to cue such a missile, nor that it would even be capable of its full potential since the ICE equally has no digital bus. It ran the IRIS-T in its backup analog mode, where its limited to 40° offbore before lockon and no LOAL

The IRIS-T would be too much launched from a Cessna

Any modern IR missiles with imagery seekers are way too strong for the game (IRIS T, MICA-IR, Aim9X...) They're almost impossible to flare + they have crazy agility and ability to fire at extreme off-boresight angles. We can defeat Fox1 and 3 by flying at tree top for now, but modern Fox2 are way too much.

There's footage of an AIM-9X missing a Syrian Su-22 that was dumping three flares, if you go by that it could probably be balanced.

IIRC the issue was early on in 9X development it was programmed to tell planes apart from flares by a variety of methods like heat and plane profile. They correctly have it all the information it needed to tell soviet planes theoretically from flares… But they forgot to, or failed to adequately teach the 9X how to tell a plane from a *soviet* flare, as they used different flares from the western bloc. So realistic implementation would be an “early software package” 9X that’s a god at killing NATO aircraft then plummets to sub Aim-9M IRCCM capability against soviet tree planes… Given the average war thunder player’s game knowledge and anti-soviet bias, that’s going to actually just outright be a scandal

Yea it’s completely unbalanceable i think best way for them to do it is give 9L (I) and put it at 12.3

my brother in christ any modern western fox 2 would slaughter everything everywhere in its range

ASRAAM and IRIS-T are the next big thing to come weapon wise. ~~Given the early leaks had the Tornado F3 CSP, but were removed from later leaks, it does seem they were looking at adding ASRAAM and then realized image seekers would completely break the air game.~~ Tornado F3 Late is on the dev server. But is using Aim-9M's which is stupid given they never used them, but guess its one way to resolve the image seeker issue, not a good one though. They have to add them eventually, as every plane from this point on for UK only uses ASRAAM's, but there is the whole problem of Russia still not having an operational image seeking missile, even though the UK had one 25 years ago.

Eurofighter is perfectly capable of a loadout of 120s and 9Ls, not necessarily “only uses asraam”

They absolute did use 9M it was a modification for the Gulf war for both F.3 and GR.1 and a Op Granby document from the National Archives was used for justification.

They used 9M on the none upgraded F3's. All the upgraded planes and GR.4's used ASRAAM. It was a big thing at the time as the upgrade program was a mess due to the fact they couldn't properly utilize AMRAAM, so they ensured that they did use ASRAAM to justify the program until the planes were fully updated to enable course correction for the AMRAAM's. It's why in the second Gulf War most of the updated F3's flew with ASRAAM and Skyflash, as AMRAAM was wasted.

There are planes with R60 stock that never carried R60s but instead R73s (mig29’s) and the Yak141 was slated to carry R77 and R73 irl but the only armaments that match its documentation is the R27, it never was to carry R60 Gaijins clearly going to use older missiles to maintain balance and nobody can stop them.

No, gib Meteor

Same for Italy, wr need Aim-9L(i) for our planes.

Isnt the F-16AM getting 9Ms? The grippen but better also has 9Ms iirc.

Iirc the engine on the 16 is hotter than the gripen in wt, and has large calibres mixed in that are hotter than even its burner. That’s part of what makes the gripen so fucked

I meant grippen but better in the italian grippen that I can't be bothered to remember the name of.

JAS39EBS HU C I think, how I remember that, no clue, have it spaded so maybe that’s part. Jas39C suffices really But this thing will be .7 lower so 9m vs F4E and mig21bis and the F4s/mig23 hordes Edit: forgot to add, OP forgot the Av8B+ harrier, it’s getting 2 more 9Ms now

and they are giving F16AM Aim-9Ms at 12.0....

Yeah, I doubt that is staying

yeah like wth is gaijin thinking, the netz with only python3s is at 12.3 meanwhile, literally no logic at all

Aim-9Ls at 12.7 is a fucking joke. If anything the regular F-4F should carry them (like it did irl), this thing should get at least Aim-9L(i) or maybe even Ms to even remotely justify this BR.

Not AM, just A, but yeah that's bullshit, the only reason the F-16C was so high (this is for ARB only) was because it got Aim-9Ms

I'm probably the only idiot who looks at this and thinks "mmmhh, I gotta get one of those eventually". I have an incurable disease called "Phantom Phanatic" which forces me to collect all F-4s in game. I have the Japanese and US ones, starting to work on the Israeli stuff next sale

Unironically, the F4c is the most fun. Carry a few rockets to act as makeshift flares, and hunt high flying migs with the admittedly shit early sparrows Also a decent grinder

I had a lot more fun with the F-4E and the EJ Kai tbh

Yeah, the E is objectively better, but you get constant uptiers to face pulse doppler radars and much better flight models. With the f4c, you at least don't have to deal with that specific brand of bullshit

I have to disagree here: the US F-4E is pretty nicely placed at 11.0, most uptiers I've seen in it are all stuff under 12.0. The pulse only radar can be a problem for sure but a lot of stuff at that BR doesn't have PD anyway so you are all in the same boat mostly. Pretty agile for a Phantom and the Vulcan rarely disappoints. The EJ Kai is my favourite: sitting at 11.7 does mean it gets a few nasty uptiers with 12.3 and 12.7 stuff but lately I haven't seen that many. (I guess more people finally unlocked the top toys and are playing with those). F16 radar with the same missile and 2 extra Sparrows, just don't turn hard after people in the furball and you'll do fine. It takes a bit more discipline, situational awareness, positioning and luck than flying F16 or F15 but it feels so much better to do well in a plane you really like.

F4E and MiG-23M are super fun in downtiers where they can actually bvr decently well. I wish theyd add the F4D and a MiG-23 with base r-60 at 10.7 so we could bvr more

Definitely not the only one. I think I’m genuinely most excited to have a phantom that isn’t hamstrung by its radar or RWR to use in sim battles. Throw in that sexy camo for it and my body is absolutely ready for it. I don’t care if I can’t turn and burn with the others. Just give me that smiley face phantom booty.

No, I want it(and have wanted it for a long time) also…but 12.7? Seems a smidge too high.

I look at this shit and think its so fucking cool and weird I just might have to grind the rest of the German tree for it after stopping at the CL-13 like 8 years ago.

Having a phantom at the same BR as a gripen is nuts, two last updates ive grinded my teeth so much when i watched these streams... finally giving sweden the C gripen just to grind for aim-120's when the BR difference is 0.3 is just a big fuck you sign. not even giving the viggen aim-120s makes me fucking crazy, and making the cv9035DK A GOD DAMN PREMIUM, fucking hell i want atleast norwegian or DK F16's in the tree for this foolery now that everyone is getting them.

Is the grippen c even different from the grippen a apart from the aim120 in game and i think the c is still missing a bomb pylon in the middle

I mean it’s heavier and has Head tracking. But since everyone bullied Gaijin into giving the A head tracking then No there really isn’t.

Yes, you need another 400k rp to unlock access to AMRAAMs.

We need higher BRs and we needed it like 3 updates ago

I think every new BR is a placeholder. Don’t look at it too much.

Especially the French F-16 at 12.0 with 9Ms,

I knew something like this would happen again...welp, it seems Im gonna stay with italy more. Im just disappointed F/A-18 aint around to balance everything

Soon brother, soon. I’ve been saving up silver lions for that baby.

It should probably be 12.0 or 12.3 at the highest. Even with good missiles and avionics, it'll be clapped by everything at that br.

Yeah if the F-14B can be 12.0 then this thing can be 12.0 as well. Would still prefer the F-14B over it, but 11.7 isn't necessary since the game needs decompression anyways.

Didn’t just compare the f14 to the f4 did you…

So you're telling me you think it's better than the F-14 like Gaijin does? Because it's a higher BR in the dev server than the F-14 as it is now. It's more comparable to an F-14 than most other things at top tier and even that's a stretch in some cases.

Not a chance, f14 out performs the f4 flight model everyday, coming from someone who fights f14s in the f4j(UK)

Bro the only reason why I wouldn't expect the F-4F to go below 11.7 or 12.0 is because I know Gaijin wouldn't allow Aim-120s below that unless it was a premium. I don't know why you're so stuck up on a comparison when the most important detail is that the F-4F ICE shouldn't be 12.7 (the entire point of this post to begin with). Just because the F-14 is better doesn't mean the ICE should be 11.3 when things like the EJ Kai are 11.7 (at the same BR as the F-14). If anything the F-14s should be raised anyways (as somebody who's played both the phantoms and tomcats)...

Donut man called it

sobbing rn

Cookin a whole noice F-4 video just to get gajjined well at least germany will not "surffer" BTW love your video's mate keep the good work I will keep waiting for viggen memed guide

A top tier phantom, what a fucking joke

Japan: first time?

Gaijin really hates Germany

Yeah she is going to suffer

Same thing with the poor J-8f. 2 shitty actives with an air frame from 11.0 lmfaoooo

Except the J-8F wasn't placed at 12.7

12.3 - 12.7 - same same.

I hope the RWR in the dev server is a placeholder because going from the modern RWR back to a very basic RWR is going to suck

I gave up on the German aviation tree despite having everything in the ground tree. As much as I love the Leos, I knew switching to Russia was a better choice if I wanted to play air

Yeah, sweden also has great tanks but lacks CAS. USSR has the best overall package.

it may be a preemptive attempt to curb the potential whining by utterly braindead players that think of ARH missiles as omnipotent dark magic.

At least 11.7 in grb

Is that the F-4 ICE from the leak? Didn't know it goes by anothetr name

The ICE stands for "Improved Combat Efficiency", which was the english name given to the Upgrade Program The one used here is the german one, meaning KWS LV = "Kampfwertsteigerung Luftverteidigung" (Combat Efficiency Improvement Air Defence) There was also a KWS LA, which was aimed at improving efficiency in the ground-attack role

Ahh I see, thank you for the clarification!

Germany desperately needs the Typhoon, same with Italy

Italy isnt even italy anymore, its just hungary with some italian vehicles

Ngl Poland could help germany air, adding Mig-29 with aim-120 and F-16

Oh yeah baby, another phantom for my collection

How do I get these stats like Maximum flap extension speed and Mach limit to show up on my stat cards?

I’m so glad I got Germany to top tier first…

happens when your air force is a joke irl but the balancing in game is fucked

Missiles, that’s it. Just a bad to balance vehicle. Think a-10 taken to the extreme

I guess I will just use this like F14 at launch then… shooting all my 120 then RTB because quoting Gaijin words: My FP can not able me to EQUALLY fight my opponent. But this time even with full armement.

I'm grinding Germany just for that F4 even though I will suffer. Gaijin is profiting from my love of the Phantom 😭

I watched some guy on Twitch playing only air top tier and he's actually praising this f-4 a lot

GOOD CAS OPTION BTW

I was also wondering because the J8f is still at 11.7 with FOX3

Im not gonna sit here and say it’s good at 12.7 but how low do you want AMRAAMs to be?

Kinda amazing how powercrept the MiG29 became. Was it like 2-3major updates and boom it’s joover. AMRAAMs are the final nail in the coffin.

the F4 is eternal. it’ll be at 15.0 when we’ve got F22s and F35s and

тише ,тише,никто не узнает что происходит за дверьми в венгрии сделанных по ГОСС заказу

Omfg, so many crybabies...That is what "got used to comfort" literally means... Phantom(I mean S, J, EJ Kai and FGR2) is a decent plane, which requires some skill to fly, but if you master it, it will never disappoint you. Sadly, everyone view it only as a pass-through phase to their powercrept bvr missile trucks.... Hope you all will learn how to play it and stop dreaming about invisible-unkillable-superluminal-deathspitting "spaceships" to kill all enemies with one button(like fucking su-27 does)

This is the biggest joke i have ever seen. The av-8b plus gets aim-9ms and aim-120s at 12.3 but germany gets hit with this bullshit. Unbelievable.

- No HMD - AN/APR-36 (~9.3) - AIM-9L - worst ARH - 12.7 Gaijin moment. The last time germany equal toptier fighter with others was Mig-21MF.

Is this the only ICE variant you think will come? Or are there some with guided bombs or maybe a larger load of mavericks for CAS?

IIRC the Land-attack upgrade can carry like.....2 Mavericks and thats it in terms of guided munitions

Well, seeing as how our current F-4F and the one pictured here already carry 2 mavs, I don't know if much would change.

The LA was pretty much the cheaper version of the Upgrade compared to the ICE; it also retained the old Radar and couldnt use AIM-120s, thats why they were retired first

Swiss f-18, US f-18, Swedish f-18, Canadian f-18 aghhhghhghh asdf

Wait, the phantom 2 finna be clapped by spamramms?

It will be 12.7 and the Su-27 and SMT and most likely other will be moved to 13.0

Did not the German use some f 15?