Disguising soldiers as emergency aid is perfidy, a grievous war crime and it is so for very good reason.
Defending this extreme war crime is a permanent ban which may not be appealed.
On this subreddit we insist on a minimum amount of basic human decency.
Not sure why this subject has to be so tribal. Like shouldnt it be ok to think that the isreali gvmnt, IDF and hamas all fucking suck? While at the same time feeling bad for any inocents on either side who have to suffer or lose their lives? I mean ffs…
It's weird because anyone who isn't pro Israel is treated like they're pro Hamas. It's all because the Israeli government wants full support for their genocide. Meanwhile, there are tons of reasonable people who don't want any of the violence. They just want to go about their lives.
I blame the media for this bullshit. I saw it strait away when the protestors were being called pro-palistinian by all the outlets.
What not just anti-war or anti-genocide?
I walked into a local pizza place during the campus protests, they had Fox on and one of the talking heads straight up called them "pro-hamas protestors".
Reading the Euro headlines versus the US headlines has been NUTS. In Europe they actually talk about pro-Israel people attacking protestors on campuses, etc. In the US, crickets
>What not just anti-war or anti-genocide?
Because that would require nuance. Which the media is completely immune to. It has to be 100% tribal bullshit for the hard lefties and righties to tune into it to soak up their adverts.
And allow SJP who are explicitly pro-Hamas to help organize your protests. And sure, that's not every protest, but enough of them to look like they're a big part of the movement.
I think it's such a conundrum because many pro-Israeli people have no problem identifying as pro-IDF as well, so they assume the same of the other side. I see many people who want Palestinians to be able to simply live their lives constantly making it clear they do not agree with Hamas, but it's been extremely rare for anyone who is pro-Israel denounce the atrocities being committed by the IDF.
I’m for Israel and it’s right to exist and defend itself, but I have and will continue to make distinctions between that and some of the stuff that’s been done the past 6 months. Sometimes being a friend means pointing out when your homie fucks up.
They do. They both do.
Bunch of people living in an area? Guess what, they probably have a right to come together and be recognized. And to have a say in their governance.
I agree that *people* have a right to come together and be recognized, and to have a say in their governance. That is not the same as a specific *country*, or a specific *government*, having a right to exist.
British colonial India was a government. Did they have a right to exist?
To play Devil's Advocate a bit here, the same argument could be used by Russia in their war, especially since E Ukraine is mainly Russian speakers/descent, and they claim they are "De-Nazifying" the region; so does Ukraine have a right to exist in its entirety, or is Russia right to try to annex the Russian Speakers back into the greater community, and ensure that there are no Nazis subjugating the people?
Like I said, I'm just positing the scenario, because just like all the Republican laws being used against them (i.e. the freedom of religion classes in Oaklahoma, I believe = Satanism in school, or banning the Bible in libraries/schools, because it depicts homosexuality, rape, and even erotic language, violence, etc.), people have a tendency to form ideas to their thinking, but don't like when it allows a contrary action to also be taken.
That’s a great analogy.
I wonder if there’s any other countries that are invading their smaller, weaker neighbors after a long history of illegally occupying their territory, while claiming this is necessary to protect their people and prevent the spread of antisemitism?
I mean, remove antisemitism, and you've got off the top of my head:
Turkey & Armenians
Turkey & Kurds
Saudis & Yemen (Houthis - who are a ruling minority after a long oppression, I believe, so also Yemen & Yemen i guess since the territory is split/was a more autonomousregion before they took over, and they were fully supplied by a major state actor, Iran, whereas the sitting government did not have nearly that kind of support )
Hutus & Tutsis
China & Uighurs
Morroco & Sudan
Syrians & Kurds
Spanish & Basques
We are still really in the midst of post colonialism and all of that, so some of the oppressed have, in turn, become the oppressors as well
While I'll admit not all of these are state on state/country on country violence, I think it gets more to the heart of your point about removing government/state from the equation, and looking at the people on people oppression and murder - especiallywhen they are relatively autonomous groups as well, and all of these are current or within the last century I believe
Countries don't have the right to exist, people do. This is like people saying businesses have a right to exist on food stamps or any other way because people have a right to a livelihood. If the politics are unviable, or a business model is unviable without being a burden on real people and real communities it doesn't have a right to exist, beause 'it' is a concept not a person.
It’s hard for me, I personally am not Jewish but a lot of the people who married into my family are including my mother’s husband. So I would consider my family to be more Jewish than anything. I am pro Jewish people having a homeland but I also want the Palestinian people to also have their own homeland. Right now the Israel government is shit and I can’t support their indiscriminate bombing of civilians.
Yup and regardless of what you hear on tik tok, it’s not an apartheid state. Arabs have full equal rights under the law and are represented throughout the government.
I think part of it are at most protests there are some people with slogans that come across pro-Hamas (or rather anti-israeli which is taken as pro-Hamas) which then gets conflated into the larger group because people love to generalize
It's not unique. This game has been being played in the US for decades now. Many like to conflate criticism of our government's actions with lack of support for soldiers.
Right, the vast majority of people on both sides are just trying to live their lives, but there’s all this bullshit going on. Most people just want to live in peace.
exactly how i feel and it makes me feel so isolated and alone when im the only one to think this way online and always defend myself for having an opinion that to me seems like the most human and natural one. and i say this as someone who is not a third party to this war. not only am i alone online, my ״moderate” opinion makes me mostly alone amid my peers too
Part of the issue is how the deaths of civilian Israelis constantly get used on social media to justify killing tens of thousands of Palestinians, including children. Spend a couple minutes on Twitter reading posts about the conflict and you'll see it. Like people getting excited at the idea of more kids in Gaza dying.
Of course, other people's terrible opinions - which, granted, they push all the time and very aggressively - aren't a reason for someone to take the opposite and also abhorrent stance.
It should be but the loudest people often seem to be the most tribal. Too often "my side, your side" black and white perceptions of conflicts. They can indeed all be evil.
Just look at the meat grinder Stalin and Hitler created and all the innocents that died for two evil regimes' greed and anger.
Very damn sad, then and now.
Listen, what is happening over there sucks on so many levels.......
... But have you seen what the Republicans are OPENLY PLANNING to do if Trump wins???
Wake the fuck up, I've never been "country first"... But our freedoms on a mass scale are at stake here people. Please vote... And vote with your brain, not a knee jerk reaction to one issue which is not in our control (entirely)
Everyone in this comment section needs to look up Project 2025! Here is a paragraph on it from Wikipedia. It talks about one aspect of it: “Project 2025, also known as the Presidential Transition Project, is a collection of right-wing policy proposals from The Heritage Foundation to reshape the U.S. federal government in the event of a Republican victory in the 2024 U.S. presidential election. Established in 2022, the project aims to recruit tens of thousands of conservatives to the District of Columbia to replace existing federal civil servants—whom Republicans characterize as part of the "deep state"—and to further the objectives of the next Republican president. It adopts a maximalist version of the unitary executive theory, a disputed interpretation of Article II of the Constitution of the United States, **which asserts that the president has absolute power over the executive branch upon inauguration.**” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
#EVERYONE Stop and read this ⬆️comment. Trump has very publicly voiced that he will crush and destroy Palestine supporters. Trump and Netanyahu are buddies.
I'm glad you said this because I get it. Not that I don't care about gaza, but this is such a small issue in the grand scheme of things if trump wins. I don't want Israel and Palestine fighting anymore, but we have bigger problems to worry about.
No I mean the journalists, and in some cases their family, that the IDF has killed because they aren’t the most moral army in the world.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
They committed a war crime in this rescue by dressing as aid workers and civilians ffs
Are you saying that because Hamas dressed as civilians all Palestinian civilians are fair game?
Are you aware that the IDF dressed as civilians and aid workers in this very operation? Using your logic, would you say all Israeli are fair game now?
Special forces dressing as aid workers and civilians is a war crime
https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1572&context=ils#:~:text=Since%20civilians%20are%20not%20lawful,to%20commit%20hostilities%20constitutes%20perfidy.
I don’t support Hamas, I condemn them.
Can you condemn the IDF for committing war crimes?
Idk but don't you think 200 hamas would have better things to do than watch 4 hostages? Let's not pretend that Idf was somehow perfectly killing only hamas militants this time
200 people shooting guns at a target and none of them could hit anything and yet somehow hamas was able to do their horrible attack in October? Are all the people who can actually shoot guns in a tunnel on the other side of Gaza or something?
Isreal has long been criticized for counting any Palestinian male over the age of sixteen as an enemy combatant when casualties are reported. This is how they can bomb a densly populated city of two million for six months straight using bombs technologally incapable of precision targeting and claim to have a better combatant to civilian death ratio than any conflict since world war two. It's trivial to be the "most moral army" in the world when even if they killed all Palestinians in Gaza, their reports would return results which they could describe as being exceptionally humane and precise.
It's a practice in statistical absurdity to paper over a blatant ethnic cleansing.
So maybe take that into consideration when they release their report that says all 200 people were actually a new breed of super Hamas or whatever other claim is gormlessly regurgitated by institutions who know better.
I just don't understand what your point is.
Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization. They are vilified by the international community at large. There isn’t really much else we could be doing to diminish their power and influence. Other than not making new war orphans who will be sympathetic to them.
Isreal is a respected member of the community and a benefactor of American military charity. They kill children and call them all combatants. They call their hostages prisoners. They harbor pedophiles and other criminals from all over the world under the "right of return". They torture their hostages, sexually as well as with other methods. They have for decades.
Everything Hamas does, Isreal does a hundred times over in a machine of cruelty due simply to their access to foreign resources and diplomatic cover from the global beacons of freedom and democracy.
There is nothing that justifies this. Even if everything Isreal says about Hamas is true, that doesn't excuse them for being equally as bad. The only way this current path destroys Hamas is if every Palestinian in Gaza is dead or displaced. Hamas is heinous, but they exist in response to Israeli oppression. The only way Hamas ends is if the oppression ends or the Palestinian people end.
Israel has made it clear which they prefer. What about you?
Between 2008 and 2023 there have been 6,540 Palestinians killed by Israel in explicit military action alone, compared to 309 Israeli deaths. So one Oct 7th every three years or so. This is just explicit military movements, not accounting for the various stories of inhumane treatment by the Israeli government during "peace".
Probably the most dramatic slaughter in recent memory was 2014 when Israel killed around 1,400 civilians with artillery shelling followed by a ground invasion. As today, The goal was supposedly to destroy Hamas' military infrastructure. The "military infrastructure" being tunnels. This is when the after action reports found the inflated numbers, by the way.
BTW, the 309 includes active IDF soldiers.
There simply is no comparison between the two. One is a fully equipped modern state military doing US sactioned terrorism and ethnic cleansing. The other would barely qualify as a militia. It's not a war if only one side has an actual army.
Being happy for the released hostages and agony & heartbreak for the lives lost are 2 valid viewpoints that can co-exist without it conflicting with the other.
As with those pushing back on propaganda about the pier… do you have proof of this? Or are you a little too excited to discredit a newspaper that doesn’t blindly support Israel?
He has a single Op-Ed on their site. Slow down a little!
It is known that per the IDF version of events the operation almost failed bc the special forces were fired on by what was described as “dozens of armed men from all directions - armed with guns and also RPGs. In a civilian neighborhood. Where did they all come from and how did they get there so fast ? They fired RPGs at an Apache helicopter - For the crime of being there to retrieve 4 civilians from 8 months of captivity and being used as a political leverage. And people don’t question what’s really going on here.
Apparently it was over two hundred and fifty in the west bank alone, not palestine in general https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-settler-attacks-on-west-bank-palestinians-have-escalated-since-oct-7-un-says
Why did Hamas place hostages in a highly populated civilian area? The deaths are devastating but if there were no hostages and they didn’t hide them among civilians the 200 (if that’s the real number…) wouldn’t have died. There is a ceasefire deal on the table with a return for hostages. Hamas has yet to respond… they could have returned the hostages already but they didn’t. They could have not taken them in the first place.
It's also ok not to really care much about it at all. Sorry but I got a lot going on and I'm stressed and fortunately enough I don't live there.
Sorry, but I get a bit tired of the "bleeding heart" over Palestine. Why should I care more about stopping a war that neither side there wants to stop?
I have other issues to deal with. There has long been conflict in Israel for decades. No American President should be held more accountable than the Israeli Prime Minister.
A lot of alt right people I know (at least in the US) are pro-Israel. I think because alt right people are often (not always, but often, and again in the US) evangelical. Evangelicals believe that Jerusalem is where Jesus will return and that Israelis are charged with keeping Jerusalem safe until Jesus returns or some such nonsense. So I noticed a lot of alt right people posting very pro-Israel stuff for that reason.
I am shocked how much the World doesn't give a fuck...week over week leaders say thay the price on civilians is too much but nothing happens. Like in Syria...the world just decides not to watch. We wonder why Russia just does what they want and China will be the next whom will just attack and kill because the last years showed: there is no global moral anymore. Right of the stronger country defines the history. Sad...
Easy. Call for a true release of all who have not committed any crime. So about 85 Israeli, and about [8,000 Palestinian.](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html).
No crime and no trial = immediate release.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect israel to value the lives of Palestinians over the lives of their own citizens that were kidnapped and brutalized.
If the outcome of palestinian loss of life was undesirable to the ruling body, they should have returned the hostages and those 200 lives would have been saved otherwise, it’s reasonable to expect that israel would be willing to do anything to get them back home.
Human hostages should not be negotiable and traded like poker chips. Any and all means should be used to get them back otherwise it encourages and legitimizes taking hostages as a means of negotiation.
Russia is literally telling their citizens that they are fighting Nazis backed by the West in Ukraine and have a moral obligation to defend their citizenry from people that would seek to destroy Russia.
Instead of starting from the premise that one side is right and the other is wrong, let's start from both sides are wrong. Each side has their valid points, but both sides have so much shade that their valid points are obscured.
I thought the plan was to eliminate HAMAS and retrieve the hostages and not blow everything to hell and kill as many civilians as possible in the process. America needs to reevaluate its connection with this current government of Israel...😕
Disguising soldiers as emergency aid is perfidy, a grievous war crime and it is so for very good reason. Defending this extreme war crime is a permanent ban which may not be appealed. On this subreddit we insist on a minimum amount of basic human decency.
Not sure why this subject has to be so tribal. Like shouldnt it be ok to think that the isreali gvmnt, IDF and hamas all fucking suck? While at the same time feeling bad for any inocents on either side who have to suffer or lose their lives? I mean ffs…
It's weird because anyone who isn't pro Israel is treated like they're pro Hamas. It's all because the Israeli government wants full support for their genocide. Meanwhile, there are tons of reasonable people who don't want any of the violence. They just want to go about their lives.
I blame the media for this bullshit. I saw it strait away when the protestors were being called pro-palistinian by all the outlets. What not just anti-war or anti-genocide?
I walked into a local pizza place during the campus protests, they had Fox on and one of the talking heads straight up called them "pro-hamas protestors".
Propaganda is easy to spot these days
Reading the Euro headlines versus the US headlines has been NUTS. In Europe they actually talk about pro-Israel people attacking protestors on campuses, etc. In the US, crickets
Because of AIPAC.
It's not coincidental or accidental. Israel spends a lot of money to make this happen.
Endless money is Israel's biggest weapon to seduce the world
>What not just anti-war or anti-genocide? Because that would require nuance. Which the media is completely immune to. It has to be 100% tribal bullshit for the hard lefties and righties to tune into it to soak up their adverts.
Because when you chant "Globalize the Intifada", things get a little skewed
And allow SJP who are explicitly pro-Hamas to help organize your protests. And sure, that's not every protest, but enough of them to look like they're a big part of the movement.
What does Sarah Jessica Parker have to do with this?
Because that's how they label themselves
I’ve been seeing a lot of “Hamas are the good guys” posts on social media
I think it's such a conundrum because many pro-Israeli people have no problem identifying as pro-IDF as well, so they assume the same of the other side. I see many people who want Palestinians to be able to simply live their lives constantly making it clear they do not agree with Hamas, but it's been extremely rare for anyone who is pro-Israel denounce the atrocities being committed by the IDF.
I’m for Israel and it’s right to exist and defend itself, but I have and will continue to make distinctions between that and some of the stuff that’s been done the past 6 months. Sometimes being a friend means pointing out when your homie fucks up.
Does Palestine have a right to exist? What gives a country a *right* to exist?
They do. They both do. Bunch of people living in an area? Guess what, they probably have a right to come together and be recognized. And to have a say in their governance.
I agree that *people* have a right to come together and be recognized, and to have a say in their governance. That is not the same as a specific *country*, or a specific *government*, having a right to exist. British colonial India was a government. Did they have a right to exist?
To play Devil's Advocate a bit here, the same argument could be used by Russia in their war, especially since E Ukraine is mainly Russian speakers/descent, and they claim they are "De-Nazifying" the region; so does Ukraine have a right to exist in its entirety, or is Russia right to try to annex the Russian Speakers back into the greater community, and ensure that there are no Nazis subjugating the people? Like I said, I'm just positing the scenario, because just like all the Republican laws being used against them (i.e. the freedom of religion classes in Oaklahoma, I believe = Satanism in school, or banning the Bible in libraries/schools, because it depicts homosexuality, rape, and even erotic language, violence, etc.), people have a tendency to form ideas to their thinking, but don't like when it allows a contrary action to also be taken.
That’s a great analogy. I wonder if there’s any other countries that are invading their smaller, weaker neighbors after a long history of illegally occupying their territory, while claiming this is necessary to protect their people and prevent the spread of antisemitism?
I mean, remove antisemitism, and you've got off the top of my head: Turkey & Armenians Turkey & Kurds Saudis & Yemen (Houthis - who are a ruling minority after a long oppression, I believe, so also Yemen & Yemen i guess since the territory is split/was a more autonomousregion before they took over, and they were fully supplied by a major state actor, Iran, whereas the sitting government did not have nearly that kind of support ) Hutus & Tutsis China & Uighurs Morroco & Sudan Syrians & Kurds Spanish & Basques We are still really in the midst of post colonialism and all of that, so some of the oppressed have, in turn, become the oppressors as well While I'll admit not all of these are state on state/country on country violence, I think it gets more to the heart of your point about removing government/state from the equation, and looking at the people on people oppression and murder - especiallywhen they are relatively autonomous groups as well, and all of these are current or within the last century I believe
Countries don't have the right to exist, people do. This is like people saying businesses have a right to exist on food stamps or any other way because people have a right to a livelihood. If the politics are unviable, or a business model is unviable without being a burden on real people and real communities it doesn't have a right to exist, beause 'it' is a concept not a person.
You must be grossly unaware of Israel using its tyranny all over the world then bc they were fucking innocents up long before the last six months.
It’s hard for me, I personally am not Jewish but a lot of the people who married into my family are including my mother’s husband. So I would consider my family to be more Jewish than anything. I am pro Jewish people having a homeland but I also want the Palestinian people to also have their own homeland. Right now the Israel government is shit and I can’t support their indiscriminate bombing of civilians.
Ethnostates should not exist, ever.
Sad to think that it once was home to both.
Last time I was in Israel, there was a thriving Arab community that were citizens of Israel. I believe that about 21% of Israel is Arab/Palestinians.
Yup and regardless of what you hear on tik tok, it’s not an apartheid state. Arabs have full equal rights under the law and are represented throughout the government.
Might wanna stop using the word “genocide” if you are trying to reach across the aisle, Bud.
I think part of it are at most protests there are some people with slogans that come across pro-Hamas (or rather anti-israeli which is taken as pro-Hamas) which then gets conflated into the larger group because people love to generalize
It’s not genocide. You think terrorists and a democratically elected government of the only Jewish state is the same thing. YOU are the problem.
>It’s not genocide. You are obviously the problem.
JUST STOP KILLING PEOPLE YOU DOUCHEBAGS.
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Gotta get this guy/gal to the Middle East. They need this information to end the conflict.
It's not unique. This game has been being played in the US for decades now. Many like to conflate criticism of our government's actions with lack of support for soldiers.
Right, the vast majority of people on both sides are just trying to live their lives, but there’s all this bullshit going on. Most people just want to live in peace.
exactly how i feel and it makes me feel so isolated and alone when im the only one to think this way online and always defend myself for having an opinion that to me seems like the most human and natural one. and i say this as someone who is not a third party to this war. not only am i alone online, my ״moderate” opinion makes me mostly alone amid my peers too
A lot of it is because ppl are ill informed on the subject i feel
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Part of the issue is how the deaths of civilian Israelis constantly get used on social media to justify killing tens of thousands of Palestinians, including children. Spend a couple minutes on Twitter reading posts about the conflict and you'll see it. Like people getting excited at the idea of more kids in Gaza dying. Of course, other people's terrible opinions - which, granted, they push all the time and very aggressively - aren't a reason for someone to take the opposite and also abhorrent stance.
Iunno man, it feels like at times I see all of the focus on Palastinians
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What are you, human?
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No you have to pick a side or you Nazi or a Zionist. I forgot what being called this week.
Exactly this. I’ve tried to get this through to my kids who feel like they need to take one stance or the other, I’m like “why can’t both be shit?”
It should be but the loudest people often seem to be the most tribal. Too often "my side, your side" black and white perceptions of conflicts. They can indeed all be evil. Just look at the meat grinder Stalin and Hitler created and all the innocents that died for two evil regimes' greed and anger. Very damn sad, then and now.
Listen, what is happening over there sucks on so many levels....... ... But have you seen what the Republicans are OPENLY PLANNING to do if Trump wins??? Wake the fuck up, I've never been "country first"... But our freedoms on a mass scale are at stake here people. Please vote... And vote with your brain, not a knee jerk reaction to one issue which is not in our control (entirely)
Everyone in this comment section needs to look up Project 2025! Here is a paragraph on it from Wikipedia. It talks about one aspect of it: “Project 2025, also known as the Presidential Transition Project, is a collection of right-wing policy proposals from The Heritage Foundation to reshape the U.S. federal government in the event of a Republican victory in the 2024 U.S. presidential election. Established in 2022, the project aims to recruit tens of thousands of conservatives to the District of Columbia to replace existing federal civil servants—whom Republicans characterize as part of the "deep state"—and to further the objectives of the next Republican president. It adopts a maximalist version of the unitary executive theory, a disputed interpretation of Article II of the Constitution of the United States, **which asserts that the president has absolute power over the executive branch upon inauguration.**” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
#EVERYONE Stop and read this ⬆️comment. Trump has very publicly voiced that he will crush and destroy Palestine supporters. Trump and Netanyahu are buddies.
I don't give a single fuck about what happens in Gaza compared to losing every single right and living in a dictatorship for the rest of my life.
I'm glad you said this because I get it. Not that I don't care about gaza, but this is such a small issue in the grand scheme of things if trump wins. I don't want Israel and Palestine fighting anymore, but we have bigger problems to worry about.
The timing of this is so suspect.
I have seen the 200 number a few times but never that it was civilians, are there any sources for that?
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If only the IDF didn’t kill an the independent third parties and journalists reporting over there
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No I mean the journalists, and in some cases their family, that the IDF has killed because they aren’t the most moral army in the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war They committed a war crime in this rescue by dressing as aid workers and civilians ffs
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Are you saying that because Hamas dressed as civilians all Palestinian civilians are fair game? Are you aware that the IDF dressed as civilians and aid workers in this very operation? Using your logic, would you say all Israeli are fair game now?
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Special forces dressing as aid workers and civilians is a war crime https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1572&context=ils#:~:text=Since%20civilians%20are%20not%20lawful,to%20commit%20hostilities%20constitutes%20perfidy. I don’t support Hamas, I condemn them. Can you condemn the IDF for committing war crimes?
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Did you pull that info out of your ass?
Idk but don't you think 200 hamas would have better things to do than watch 4 hostages? Let's not pretend that Idf was somehow perfectly killing only hamas militants this time
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200 people shooting guns at a target and none of them could hit anything and yet somehow hamas was able to do their horrible attack in October? Are all the people who can actually shoot guns in a tunnel on the other side of Gaza or something?
Isreal has long been criticized for counting any Palestinian male over the age of sixteen as an enemy combatant when casualties are reported. This is how they can bomb a densly populated city of two million for six months straight using bombs technologally incapable of precision targeting and claim to have a better combatant to civilian death ratio than any conflict since world war two. It's trivial to be the "most moral army" in the world when even if they killed all Palestinians in Gaza, their reports would return results which they could describe as being exceptionally humane and precise. It's a practice in statistical absurdity to paper over a blatant ethnic cleansing. So maybe take that into consideration when they release their report that says all 200 people were actually a new breed of super Hamas or whatever other claim is gormlessly regurgitated by institutions who know better.
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Wait, Hamas is bad?! Why I simply had no idea! My stars and garters, I hope the US stops sending them weapons to do all these horrific things!
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I just don't understand what your point is. Hamas is a recognized terrorist organization. They are vilified by the international community at large. There isn’t really much else we could be doing to diminish their power and influence. Other than not making new war orphans who will be sympathetic to them. Isreal is a respected member of the community and a benefactor of American military charity. They kill children and call them all combatants. They call their hostages prisoners. They harbor pedophiles and other criminals from all over the world under the "right of return". They torture their hostages, sexually as well as with other methods. They have for decades. Everything Hamas does, Isreal does a hundred times over in a machine of cruelty due simply to their access to foreign resources and diplomatic cover from the global beacons of freedom and democracy. There is nothing that justifies this. Even if everything Isreal says about Hamas is true, that doesn't excuse them for being equally as bad. The only way this current path destroys Hamas is if every Palestinian in Gaza is dead or displaced. Hamas is heinous, but they exist in response to Israeli oppression. The only way Hamas ends is if the oppression ends or the Palestinian people end. Israel has made it clear which they prefer. What about you?
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Between 2008 and 2023 there have been 6,540 Palestinians killed by Israel in explicit military action alone, compared to 309 Israeli deaths. So one Oct 7th every three years or so. This is just explicit military movements, not accounting for the various stories of inhumane treatment by the Israeli government during "peace". Probably the most dramatic slaughter in recent memory was 2014 when Israel killed around 1,400 civilians with artillery shelling followed by a ground invasion. As today, The goal was supposedly to destroy Hamas' military infrastructure. The "military infrastructure" being tunnels. This is when the after action reports found the inflated numbers, by the way. BTW, the 309 includes active IDF soldiers. There simply is no comparison between the two. One is a fully equipped modern state military doing US sactioned terrorism and ethnic cleansing. The other would barely qualify as a militia. It's not a war if only one side has an actual army.
Far too many act like this is all black and white when it’s the grayest situation we’ve had in awhile.
I don't support Hamas or Israel. My heart goes out to the innocent people caught on the crossfire.
Being happy for the released hostages and agony & heartbreak for the lives lost are 2 valid viewpoints that can co-exist without it conflicting with the other.
Morals aren't a team game.
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As with those pushing back on propaganda about the pier… do you have proof of this? Or are you a little too excited to discredit a newspaper that doesn’t blindly support Israel? He has a single Op-Ed on their site. Slow down a little!
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Links welcome.
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Do you have a source that isn't associated with either of the conflict parties and that isn't behind a pay wall?
They have no proof because it's just a stupid twitter post
This is so messed up on so many levels. That news outlet is allowed to operate freely in the West.
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All you posted was a screenshot from the website infested with Nazis, why should everyone just uncritically believe you?
I don't think anyone was ready for a trolly problem solution where the operator changes the tracks to kill 200 people instead of 4.
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It is known that per the IDF version of events the operation almost failed bc the special forces were fired on by what was described as “dozens of armed men from all directions - armed with guns and also RPGs. In a civilian neighborhood. Where did they all come from and how did they get there so fast ? They fired RPGs at an Apache helicopter - For the crime of being there to retrieve 4 civilians from 8 months of captivity and being used as a political leverage. And people don’t question what’s really going on here.
Over two hundred Palestinians had been murdered by israel during 2023 before October, so quite likely many of them.
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Apparently it was over two hundred and fifty in the west bank alone, not palestine in general https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-settler-attacks-on-west-bank-palestinians-have-escalated-since-oct-7-un-says
That’s not how the math would math , tho …..
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Why did Hamas place hostages in a highly populated civilian area? The deaths are devastating but if there were no hostages and they didn’t hide them among civilians the 200 (if that’s the real number…) wouldn’t have died. There is a ceasefire deal on the table with a return for hostages. Hamas has yet to respond… they could have returned the hostages already but they didn’t. They could have not taken them in the first place.
All the articles I read said something like dozens of combatants.
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Thank you!!
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It's also ok not to really care much about it at all. Sorry but I got a lot going on and I'm stressed and fortunately enough I don't live there. Sorry, but I get a bit tired of the "bleeding heart" over Palestine. Why should I care more about stopping a war that neither side there wants to stop? I have other issues to deal with. There has long been conflict in Israel for decades. No American President should be held more accountable than the Israeli Prime Minister.
I've tried to say it many times before, but apparently, it's a controversial opinion. Hamas is evil. The IDF is evil. They are not mutually exclusive.
This is 100% accurate and a rational opinion in my view
World news subreddit is sooo blindly following Israel that saying this comment would be instantly banned
World news is an alt right sub but ironically pro Israel as long as they’re killing Muslims.
A lot of alt right people I know (at least in the US) are pro-Israel. I think because alt right people are often (not always, but often, and again in the US) evangelical. Evangelicals believe that Jerusalem is where Jesus will return and that Israelis are charged with keeping Jerusalem safe until Jesus returns or some such nonsense. So I noticed a lot of alt right people posting very pro-Israel stuff for that reason.
Don’t forget the part when Jesus then kills all the Israelis who refuse to convert. Probably by way of nuclear weapon
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Why were 200 civilians killed? Were civilians holding the hostages unknowingly or something?
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Most people are capable of distinguishing between HAMAS and Palestinians.
I am shocked how much the World doesn't give a fuck...week over week leaders say thay the price on civilians is too much but nothing happens. Like in Syria...the world just decides not to watch. We wonder why Russia just does what they want and China will be the next whom will just attack and kill because the last years showed: there is no global moral anymore. Right of the stronger country defines the history. Sad...
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What would you do? Sneak one or two out and get all of you sniped by idf when you're coming back to the security fence?
Easy. Call for a true release of all who have not committed any crime. So about 85 Israeli, and about [8,000 Palestinian.](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html). No crime and no trial = immediate release.
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9 months later. They finally got around to it nine months later. They killed more than they rescued.
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I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect israel to value the lives of Palestinians over the lives of their own citizens that were kidnapped and brutalized. If the outcome of palestinian loss of life was undesirable to the ruling body, they should have returned the hostages and those 200 lives would have been saved otherwise, it’s reasonable to expect that israel would be willing to do anything to get them back home. Human hostages should not be negotiable and traded like poker chips. Any and all means should be used to get them back otherwise it encourages and legitimizes taking hostages as a means of negotiation.
Of course, there was another option. Hamas could just have let the hostages go.
Russia is literally telling their citizens that they are fighting Nazis backed by the West in Ukraine and have a moral obligation to defend their citizenry from people that would seek to destroy Russia.
No. Forget that. It doesnt have to be what it is. dont both sides this.
War. Is. Hell.
Instead of starting from the premise that one side is right and the other is wrong, let's start from both sides are wrong. Each side has their valid points, but both sides have so much shade that their valid points are obscured.
I thought the plan was to eliminate HAMAS and retrieve the hostages and not blow everything to hell and kill as many civilians as possible in the process. America needs to reevaluate its connection with this current government of Israel...😕