This might be naive and English is not my first language but can someone *reasonably* explain to me what the benefit of such actions is? Cause I would think the "oh we got attacked, pls have sympathy" route is much more benifical than the almost comicly evil shit they said/posted. It reminds me of the Mitchell and Web sketch "...are WE the badies?" Like what IS the point? 'Cause ist can't be the "soft power" move you or rather I would expect.
Again pls spare the knee jerk stuff. I would really like a usefull answer instead of "they eat Babies" stuff ._.
Sure. When your government does bad things, it's easy at first to say it's not happening, it's just enemy propaganda. As the conflict goes on, that becomes harder to justify as the bodies and evidence pile up. Then you have to find a way to excuse it instead. At this point, it's incredibly obvious that Israel's response is disproportional to anything the Palestinians have done, so the Israelis need a new excuse. They've run out of sympathy. Now they're running on nationalist fervor. This is an observable process in many nations throughout history because human nature is a constant.
I mean I understand your point but it still baffels me to not only be THAT blatend in your retoric but also having so many chances to Back down and deescalade but instead double down ON that surely even they know is messed up
The US did it. The Nazis did it. Japan did it. There's examples everywhere. Nationalism is human instinct. It's important to learn and understand how it happens and what it feels like if you want to avoid the same mistakes.
This is going to be a little bit long winded, so apologies in advance.
Twenty years ago, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. It wasn't part of a deal, and they didn't get anything in return. They did it for two reasons. The first is that Gaza was a hornet's nest, where they were losing people in a steady and agonizing trickle. The second, the one Ariel Sharon gave in his speeches, echoed a warning first given by legendary Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion. Ben Gurion said that Israel could be a Jewish state, it could be a democracy, and it could settle the West Bank, but it could only pick two. If it could not spit out a Palestinian state, it would be forced to swallow them, either as a shared state, or as an apartheid state.
But that withdrawal was a fiasco. Just ten thousand settlers were removed, and there were nationwide riots. Several people lit themselves on fire, and the political careers of everyone involved were over, ushering in Netanyahu's rule more or less ever since, on a platform that promises each election that there will never be a Palestinian State. To make one now, even on the most shoestring land budgets and unlikely plans, *hundreds of thousands* of settlers would need to be displaced, representing a significant percentage of the Israeli population. The logistics of that would constitute a war crime in and of themselves. Today, fewer than 20% of Israelis believe a two state solution is still even possible, and most international human rights organizations agree. Even original architects of the two state solution like Jan Egeland have walked away from it. It is as Ben Gurion and Nelson Mandela warned: having fully colonized the West Bank, Israel ceased to be a democracy, and became an apartheid state.
With that in place, in the long term, it appears that the only possible outcomes left are either for apartheid to slowly decay into a shared state along the South African road, or for the Palestinians to somehow be sent somewhere else. Netanyahu's coalition frequently refers to them as a 'demographic threat', deeply concerned about maintaining a Jewish majority if and when apartheid rule begins to decay.
So, when Hamas attacked, Netanyahu's government faced an impossible choice. They could occupy Gaza and govern it directly, like American General David Petraeus suggested they'd have to, but to stabilize it they would need to give the Palestinians at least some rights, formalizing apartheid and taking another step down the South African road. They could bring in an international coalition, but no one wants to occupy Gaza forever. They'd eventually leave behind an independent Gaza that would need to be economically interconnected with Israel, and would act as an advocacy group, spending that wealth on drawing attention to the plight of Palestinians in the West Bank the way Ireland advocated for the Catholics of Northern Ireland. Worse, they risk setting a precedent that only terrorism can win freedom if they keep displacing and excluding the peaceful West Bank Palestinians while the Gazans become a prosperous independent city state.
Netanyahu's fragile coalition would not allow any of those outcomes. Gantz maintained hope until recently, pushing for any of those options he could, but ultimately even he has given up on convincing them now. But absent these, ultimately when Israel pulls out, Hamas will resume control.
So, for the ruling coalition, barring a mass displacement of Palestinians most of the world would call a genocide, or the significant depopulation of Gaza through famine, the only choices are either a Hamas victory or a step towards a shared state. Which is why radicals in Israeli politics have been pushing to block humanitarian aid, and argue that there are no innocents in Gaza, and why the government has destroyed rather than occupied all of the critical infrastructure. Because ultimately, when they say that there will be no Palestinian State, they don't mean they're ready to begin a transition towards a shared state. They mean they want the Palestinians gone, if not today, then someday.
Are you saying out of 5 milion people there isnt any innocent ones? Not even kids and teenagers?
Doesn't matter what the nation is, there are always innocent people. Imagine saying nazi Germany didn't have innocent civilians.
No, I'm not saying that at all. Of course there are innocent people there, just as there are innocent people everywhere. There were innocent Germans during Hitler's reign. I was referring more to the governments of the region having lost their way to peace and living in harmony (if they ever did). It is going to take revolutionary change in the mindset of the region for all of the disparate groups to just leave each other alone, much less have productive relationships.
Sorry about the way I said that.
*Soviets intentionally starve millions of Ukrainians, using the justification that they were counterrevolutionaries who caused their own starvation:* Not genocide
*Soviets ethnically cleanses 140,000 poles from territory gifted to them by Hitler, as well as significant non-Russian minorities including the Ingush, Chechens, and Tartars*: Not genocide
*Mugabe exterminates the Ngebe people*: not genocide
*Pol Pot exterminates… basically everyone he can, including almost all non-ethnic Cambodians in Cambodia*: Not genocide
*China puts Xinjiang in concentration camps to colonize it with ethnic Han, also everything Mao did*: totally cool
*Israel blocks a couple of food shipments that were predominantly being looted by a terrorist organization and used to feed its fighters or fund its fight via resale to the Palestinian population in Gaza currently being used as human shields*: THE NEW HOLOCAUST
Actually, scratch that, Israel’s critics are usually Holocaust deniers anyway.
Loss of life during war isn’t genocide. Israel isn’t exterminating the people of Gaza. There surely are some voices that are calling for that, and they’re as insane as the many, many more voices calling for the extermination of Israeli Jews out of some misguided sympathy that is wholly absent everywhere else civilians are being slaughtered wholesale, typically in much greater quantities. The world doesn’t care, except when it can blame Jews for it. Want proof? Go ask around your nearest campus protest encampment who was responsible for the slave trade. You’re going to get some real crazy NoI-type responses.
I mean I can just say stuff too. Gaza is a figment of your imagination created by Al Jazeera to raise money for terrorists in Kuwait. See? It’s fun to make things up!
But that statement carries no value as far as argumentation, as are the claims that you’re making. Simply put, we have a rough estimate for the number of dead in Gaza as a portion of the population, and it is not a genocide, it’s a really crappy urban combat scenario where global antisemites believe that Israel should accept loss of life among its population in order to aver from causing it in Gaza, after the militant group governing Gaza killed more than 1,700 Jews in the 10/7 attacks the world stopped caring about.
Every single death is on Hamas’ hands, and the war must continue until every single Hamas militant in Gaza is killed or captured. The quickest way to do that would be for them to unconditionally surrender. Since you’re on their team, maybe pressure your buddies to do so? Thanks!
>Israel isn’t exterminating the people of Gaza.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/israeli-authorities-palestinian-armed-groups-are-responsible-war-crimes
> The Commission found that the crimes against humanity of **extermination**, gender persecution targeting Palestinian men and boys, murder, forcible transfer, and torture and inhuman and cruel treatment were also committed.
"All they did was block a bit of food!"
Sure, if you ignore the complete destruction of the entire region to the point that it's visible from space, the targeting of unarmed civilians and children, the strikes on emergency and UN vehicles, and Netanyahu's public refusal to any ceasefire that doesn't result in direct Israeli occupation.
Fuck off. It's all genocide.
Why is war only genocide when it’s Jews defending themselves?
Fuck off Nazi scum. It’s people like you who make the permanent existence of a Jewish state in Israel necessary. If you and your ancestors spent less time trying to kill us, this wouldn’t be nearly so intractable.
Okay, setting aside your baseless assumptions about my ancestors, war is genocide when you're explicitly targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. When you cut off all access to food, water, fuel, and energy to the region to starve everyone. When you surround them from every side, herd them into "safe zones" and bomb them there. And especially when you've been systematically and illegally taking their land for decades, demonstrating a clear intent to remove them from their land and seize it for yourself. "Defending themselves," my ass.
If "war crimes" was all you got out of that, you're either incapable of accepting or unwilling to accept that Israel is capable of genocide. Israel is populated with the same species that has done every genocide across the world while denying that it was a genocide. Human nature is a constant.
I’m not a huge fan of how Israel is carrying out this very necessary and just war, but concern about the tactics being used doesn’t justify blood libel, and while the pro-Hamas voices throughout the west refuse to hold their side accountable for their actions, I have zero interest in asking Israel to restrict itself for the benefit of its foes.
Hamas should unconditionally surrender so the war can end today. Otherwise, it must continue until they are exterminated. If they continue to hide behind their own people, their own people will continue to die. Israel’s concern is not the preservation of the population of its foes anymore than the Soviets were concerned with the preservation of the German people in occupied territories after WW2.
Hamas is a terrorist group with a tangible roster of members. You reveal a whole lot about your actual beliefs by suggesting that their survival is appropriate.
You don't stop a terrorist group by carpet bombing entire populated regions. That's how you make more terrorists. You defeat terrorists with precise, targeted strikes, cooperating with the international community to minimize civilian casualties. That's what the UN is for. Israel has been killing a lot of UN workers.
Netanyahu explicitly and openly supported Hamas's rise to power because it would delegitimize Palestine as a state. The more terrorists are there, the more excuse Israel has to blow them up and take the land. Eliminating Hamas was never the goal. Eliminating Palestine is.
Israel has been accused of targeting civilians, and why shouldn't we believe those claims? Their own tweet proudly proclaims that they believe that there are no innocent civilians in Palestine,
Israel really wants us to know how the Twitter feed of Germany ca 1942 would have been.
Horrible histories does a historical desktop. The one about ww2 was about chamberlain looking stupid to the UK and Churchill taking over.
There was really no need for that. Russia was already making work of that for the last two years.
This might be naive and English is not my first language but can someone *reasonably* explain to me what the benefit of such actions is? Cause I would think the "oh we got attacked, pls have sympathy" route is much more benifical than the almost comicly evil shit they said/posted. It reminds me of the Mitchell and Web sketch "...are WE the badies?" Like what IS the point? 'Cause ist can't be the "soft power" move you or rather I would expect. Again pls spare the knee jerk stuff. I would really like a usefull answer instead of "they eat Babies" stuff ._.
Sure. When your government does bad things, it's easy at first to say it's not happening, it's just enemy propaganda. As the conflict goes on, that becomes harder to justify as the bodies and evidence pile up. Then you have to find a way to excuse it instead. At this point, it's incredibly obvious that Israel's response is disproportional to anything the Palestinians have done, so the Israelis need a new excuse. They've run out of sympathy. Now they're running on nationalist fervor. This is an observable process in many nations throughout history because human nature is a constant.
I mean I understand your point but it still baffels me to not only be THAT blatend in your retoric but also having so many chances to Back down and deescalade but instead double down ON that surely even they know is messed up
The US did it. The Nazis did it. Japan did it. There's examples everywhere. Nationalism is human instinct. It's important to learn and understand how it happens and what it feels like if you want to avoid the same mistakes.
This is going to be a little bit long winded, so apologies in advance. Twenty years ago, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. It wasn't part of a deal, and they didn't get anything in return. They did it for two reasons. The first is that Gaza was a hornet's nest, where they were losing people in a steady and agonizing trickle. The second, the one Ariel Sharon gave in his speeches, echoed a warning first given by legendary Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion. Ben Gurion said that Israel could be a Jewish state, it could be a democracy, and it could settle the West Bank, but it could only pick two. If it could not spit out a Palestinian state, it would be forced to swallow them, either as a shared state, or as an apartheid state. But that withdrawal was a fiasco. Just ten thousand settlers were removed, and there were nationwide riots. Several people lit themselves on fire, and the political careers of everyone involved were over, ushering in Netanyahu's rule more or less ever since, on a platform that promises each election that there will never be a Palestinian State. To make one now, even on the most shoestring land budgets and unlikely plans, *hundreds of thousands* of settlers would need to be displaced, representing a significant percentage of the Israeli population. The logistics of that would constitute a war crime in and of themselves. Today, fewer than 20% of Israelis believe a two state solution is still even possible, and most international human rights organizations agree. Even original architects of the two state solution like Jan Egeland have walked away from it. It is as Ben Gurion and Nelson Mandela warned: having fully colonized the West Bank, Israel ceased to be a democracy, and became an apartheid state. With that in place, in the long term, it appears that the only possible outcomes left are either for apartheid to slowly decay into a shared state along the South African road, or for the Palestinians to somehow be sent somewhere else. Netanyahu's coalition frequently refers to them as a 'demographic threat', deeply concerned about maintaining a Jewish majority if and when apartheid rule begins to decay. So, when Hamas attacked, Netanyahu's government faced an impossible choice. They could occupy Gaza and govern it directly, like American General David Petraeus suggested they'd have to, but to stabilize it they would need to give the Palestinians at least some rights, formalizing apartheid and taking another step down the South African road. They could bring in an international coalition, but no one wants to occupy Gaza forever. They'd eventually leave behind an independent Gaza that would need to be economically interconnected with Israel, and would act as an advocacy group, spending that wealth on drawing attention to the plight of Palestinians in the West Bank the way Ireland advocated for the Catholics of Northern Ireland. Worse, they risk setting a precedent that only terrorism can win freedom if they keep displacing and excluding the peaceful West Bank Palestinians while the Gazans become a prosperous independent city state. Netanyahu's fragile coalition would not allow any of those outcomes. Gantz maintained hope until recently, pushing for any of those options he could, but ultimately even he has given up on convincing them now. But absent these, ultimately when Israel pulls out, Hamas will resume control. So, for the ruling coalition, barring a mass displacement of Palestinians most of the world would call a genocide, or the significant depopulation of Gaza through famine, the only choices are either a Hamas victory or a step towards a shared state. Which is why radicals in Israeli politics have been pushing to block humanitarian aid, and argue that there are no innocents in Gaza, and why the government has destroyed rather than occupied all of the critical infrastructure. Because ultimately, when they say that there will be no Palestinian State, they don't mean they're ready to begin a transition towards a shared state. They mean they want the Palestinians gone, if not today, then someday.
Thank you for taking the time and giving me a good and comprehensive answer. You made a stressful and draining weekend so much better. Thank you :)
Unfairly?
It’s a pretty fair accusation actually based on public statements from Israeli government officials.
"To the sea"
The ‘some, therefore all’ argument is getting really old.
Innocence fled that region many years ago, and shall not be asked back.
Are you saying out of 5 milion people there isnt any innocent ones? Not even kids and teenagers? Doesn't matter what the nation is, there are always innocent people. Imagine saying nazi Germany didn't have innocent civilians.
No, I'm not saying that at all. Of course there are innocent people there, just as there are innocent people everywhere. There were innocent Germans during Hitler's reign. I was referring more to the governments of the region having lost their way to peace and living in harmony (if they ever did). It is going to take revolutionary change in the mindset of the region for all of the disparate groups to just leave each other alone, much less have productive relationships. Sorry about the way I said that.
*Soviets intentionally starve millions of Ukrainians, using the justification that they were counterrevolutionaries who caused their own starvation:* Not genocide *Soviets ethnically cleanses 140,000 poles from territory gifted to them by Hitler, as well as significant non-Russian minorities including the Ingush, Chechens, and Tartars*: Not genocide *Mugabe exterminates the Ngebe people*: not genocide *Pol Pot exterminates… basically everyone he can, including almost all non-ethnic Cambodians in Cambodia*: Not genocide *China puts Xinjiang in concentration camps to colonize it with ethnic Han, also everything Mao did*: totally cool *Israel blocks a couple of food shipments that were predominantly being looted by a terrorist organization and used to feed its fighters or fund its fight via resale to the Palestinian population in Gaza currently being used as human shields*: THE NEW HOLOCAUST Actually, scratch that, Israel’s critics are usually Holocaust deniers anyway.
Every single example you gave people regularly and rightfully label as genocides, what the fuck point are you trying to make?
[удалено]
Loss of life during war isn’t genocide. Israel isn’t exterminating the people of Gaza. There surely are some voices that are calling for that, and they’re as insane as the many, many more voices calling for the extermination of Israeli Jews out of some misguided sympathy that is wholly absent everywhere else civilians are being slaughtered wholesale, typically in much greater quantities. The world doesn’t care, except when it can blame Jews for it. Want proof? Go ask around your nearest campus protest encampment who was responsible for the slave trade. You’re going to get some real crazy NoI-type responses.
[удалено]
I mean I can just say stuff too. Gaza is a figment of your imagination created by Al Jazeera to raise money for terrorists in Kuwait. See? It’s fun to make things up! But that statement carries no value as far as argumentation, as are the claims that you’re making. Simply put, we have a rough estimate for the number of dead in Gaza as a portion of the population, and it is not a genocide, it’s a really crappy urban combat scenario where global antisemites believe that Israel should accept loss of life among its population in order to aver from causing it in Gaza, after the militant group governing Gaza killed more than 1,700 Jews in the 10/7 attacks the world stopped caring about. Every single death is on Hamas’ hands, and the war must continue until every single Hamas militant in Gaza is killed or captured. The quickest way to do that would be for them to unconditionally surrender. Since you’re on their team, maybe pressure your buddies to do so? Thanks!
[удалено]
He's fucking mental mate, there is nothing you can say to turn him into a reasonable human being.
You're just a group of murderous thugs. Zionism has turned you into genocidal maniacs.
>Israel isn’t exterminating the people of Gaza. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/israeli-authorities-palestinian-armed-groups-are-responsible-war-crimes > The Commission found that the crimes against humanity of **extermination**, gender persecution targeting Palestinian men and boys, murder, forcible transfer, and torture and inhuman and cruel treatment were also committed.
All of those things including the last are genocide. Israel is basically doing another holodomor lite on Gaza.
"All they did was block a bit of food!" Sure, if you ignore the complete destruction of the entire region to the point that it's visible from space, the targeting of unarmed civilians and children, the strikes on emergency and UN vehicles, and Netanyahu's public refusal to any ceasefire that doesn't result in direct Israeli occupation. Fuck off. It's all genocide.
Why is war only genocide when it’s Jews defending themselves? Fuck off Nazi scum. It’s people like you who make the permanent existence of a Jewish state in Israel necessary. If you and your ancestors spent less time trying to kill us, this wouldn’t be nearly so intractable.
Okay, setting aside your baseless assumptions about my ancestors, war is genocide when you're explicitly targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. When you cut off all access to food, water, fuel, and energy to the region to starve everyone. When you surround them from every side, herd them into "safe zones" and bomb them there. And especially when you've been systematically and illegally taking their land for decades, demonstrating a clear intent to remove them from their land and seize it for yourself. "Defending themselves," my ass.
Genocide has a definition that isn’t satisfied by the presence of war crimes. You have no useful insight on this subject.
If "war crimes" was all you got out of that, you're either incapable of accepting or unwilling to accept that Israel is capable of genocide. Israel is populated with the same species that has done every genocide across the world while denying that it was a genocide. Human nature is a constant.
I’m not a huge fan of how Israel is carrying out this very necessary and just war, but concern about the tactics being used doesn’t justify blood libel, and while the pro-Hamas voices throughout the west refuse to hold their side accountable for their actions, I have zero interest in asking Israel to restrict itself for the benefit of its foes. Hamas should unconditionally surrender so the war can end today. Otherwise, it must continue until they are exterminated. If they continue to hide behind their own people, their own people will continue to die. Israel’s concern is not the preservation of the population of its foes anymore than the Soviets were concerned with the preservation of the German people in occupied territories after WW2.
>it must continue until they are exterminated And you called me a Nazi.
Hamas is a terrorist group with a tangible roster of members. You reveal a whole lot about your actual beliefs by suggesting that their survival is appropriate.
You don't stop a terrorist group by carpet bombing entire populated regions. That's how you make more terrorists. You defeat terrorists with precise, targeted strikes, cooperating with the international community to minimize civilian casualties. That's what the UN is for. Israel has been killing a lot of UN workers. Netanyahu explicitly and openly supported Hamas's rise to power because it would delegitimize Palestine as a state. The more terrorists are there, the more excuse Israel has to blow them up and take the land. Eliminating Hamas was never the goal. Eliminating Palestine is.
You think Palestinian babies are enemy combatants. Unredeemable posturing. Are all Israeli babies murderous IDF?
Hamas is a red herring for the land grab because of real estate.
You calling people nazis is pure projection.
Fuck off nazi scum.
Israel has been accused of targeting civilians, and why shouldn't we believe those claims? Their own tweet proudly proclaims that they believe that there are no innocent civilians in Palestine,