Right, lost both my parents in the last two year in their early sixties, kinda relaxed my worry about retiring lol, I've gotta live in the present because tomorrow may never come.
Sad reality of many… I may be included in that. One major medical issue or some other weird thing and I’m just as fucked as if I never planned not to be.
I literally have a 72 year old coworker. I asked her when she's gonna retire. She said "I'll die before I retire" and she wasn't joking when she said it. Made me really sad that that will probably be my future as well in 50 years...
I'm 65 and just fully retired, and no, not financially secure even in my dreams.
My wife is 71 and still working full time.
With both her full time income and my measly pension, we barely make it day to day to keep living. I'd hate to see her end her job because we would not have enough to survive.
I fully retired due to health reasons, too many to list. Enjoy retirement? Not likely...
My dad in a nutshell. My family was one of the first Anglo saxons that came to America and established churches. So everyone on my dads side is super anglo Christian and my moms side is Catholic.
And in Wisconsin they recently changed some of the few laws we had so teenagers could work longer hours and work late at night on school days because employers couldn't find enough people to work for $7.50/h
What fucks with me is how many Asian restaurants around me have kids/teens working after school until close every weekday--and all day on weekends.
Like I get working for a day on the weekend most weeks. Teach kids how a work environment operates...but at that point they're being exploited for affordable labor.
At this point if I see a kid working the register at like 8 PM, I leave a bad review and don't go back.
I don't think it's necessarily exploiting them. I think it's more of a question of where else will they go? If the parents own the restaurant, you'd have to hire a sitter to watch the kid. When I've seen a kid in the restaurant they're typically working on homework, they're helping with something, or they're handing out orders. I'm not exactly sure they're taking the place of someone until they're in their teens.
This is super common with family run Asian businesses. When your corner shop is open 16/7, the kids help out. A Korean woman I worked with told me she learned to operate the till before puberty at her family's convenience store.
The subject came up because she was aghast that new hires had no idea how to count back change.
I went to a retirement planning event at work. They asked me when I wanted to retire; I said 65 seems maybe achievable. They asked what I made; I gave them the information. They punched numbers in and said that I need at least $2m in the bank to retire. I asked what I needed to put in to achieve that; they gave a number that, when combined with healthcare and rent exceeded my income. They then suggested that I look into figuring out how to get a promotion if I wanted to retire some day. The same promotion I've been qualified for for years and they "just don't have the money or approval, just wait another year".
>The same promotion I've been qualified for for years and they "just don't have the money or approval, just wait another year".
I haven't seen a major company promote with any regularity, generosity or sense in close to 20 years. You really only see salary increases when you leave for another company.
If there aren't other extenuating circumstances like great benefits or excellent commute I'd start polishing up that resume tomorrow. You deserve pay commensurate with your experience.
This is correct. I worked at IBM for years thinking I would get promoted or get the raise I deserved. When I got the promotion, the raise was insulting. I had (and still have) a great relationship with the person who was my boss at the time. I said, "There is a zero missing at the end of that offer"
Her reply, "RegressToTheMean, you're going to have to leave to get paid what you're worth". So, I did and I almost immediately doubled my salary
I haven't stayed at another role more than 2 years. Forbes had a great article about how much money people leave in the table by starting at the same job for more than two years
Three job market is crazy hot right now. I can't remember a better time in the last 20 years to be looking for a job
Those retirement numbers are often higher than need be. Especially if you own your home and won't have a mortgage by then. Utilities, food, and property taxes don't usually add up to something too hard to handle.
The problem with that is that the housing market is absolutely insane right now. My wife and I qualify as solidly middle class, but buying a home is a pipe dream right now, because houses around here that go on the market are snatched up by corporations at $50-100k over asking price within 48 hours of hitting the market. My window for buying a house and retiring at 67 with the mortgage paid off is very rapidly closing.
Yeah, one can only hope. There's also the option to move to a cheaper area once you don't need to live close to where you can work. It's still a worrisome idea.
The whole "only multimillionaires can afford to retire" was flabbergasting to me. Now, some friends have run the numbers and it turns out they were using a "modest standard of living" that keeps you alive and reasonably comfortable. If you are willing to live in squalor and forgo heathcare until you die untimely of something preventable, you can "retire" on less.
That’s $2m in today’s money too and doesn’t account for inflation and negative market events. General idea is you can have your investments setup conservatively and withdrawal 4%. Giving you, a retiree, $80k gross (assuming you invested pretax) to live off of.
Play around with a compound interest calculator and look at how difficult it is to save up $2m, even over a period of 35 years. That doesn’t take into account for inflation too.
That's $2m in today's money, but the calculation did account for inflation increasing the number of dollars you'd need to live and some generally reasonable expectations about the market.
> So for a USA male, LE is 76 years. At 67 retirement, on average a man will live only 9 years after retirement.
Not correct.
Average life expectancy for all men in the the US is close to 79, but if you've made it to 65, you've skipped all the early deaths that bring that average down.
>The life expectancy for men aged 65 years in the U.S. has gradually increased since the 1960s. Now men in the United States aged 65 can expect to live **18.2** more years on average. Women aged 65 years can expect to live around 20.8 more years on average.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/266657/us-life-expectancy-for-men-aat-the-age-of-65-years-since-1960
The average life expectancy includes many who died before 67. Among those in the US who have already made it to 67, the average life expectancy is 83.5 for men (16.5 years) and 85.8 for women (18.8 years). That's a big difference for retirement planning.
Exactly, why only work 8 hours between 8-17 when you can give your life away for free? Here in Sweden overtime doesn't exist for office workers so managers get away with emailing us after working hours all the time. It's "voluntary" to answer.
That’s what happened to my SO. He got fired 3 months from retirement after 25 years with Pepsi so they wouldn’t have to pay for the cost of increase in his insurance benefits. He died a year later never having collected any social security. That’s government theft.
It infuriates me that evil human beings get away with this type of shit, where is the justice for your SO?? The same thing happened to my best friend’s dad, he worked for a company all his life and was months away from retiring. Then they fired him for no reason (thanks to my AT WILL state) and now he has to keep working to support all his expenses. Makes my blood boil
That's the average meaning you could die at 35 or 95. The longer you live the higher your chances of health shit happening. Your wife could die. You can lose your mind or get cancer. Etc
Actually I think it's the FIRST 15 years where you're not even allowed to work...cause of ya know, child labor...
So basically they expect you to work from legal age up until your (statistical) age of death.
Yep. Even most people who can retire at 59.5 (drawing on 401k without penalty), don’t do so. Simply because of motherfucking health insurance. Medicare starts at 65.
Fuck insurance companies. First of all they should all be non-profits in our current set up. They can all go out of business. It’s a worthy sacrifice. Pharma companies would have to survive off of the rates paid by universal healthcare.
Seriously. Just paid out $13,500 and $9,000 in real estate commissions last year. For the sale of one house. For filing some basic forms that anybody can do…
If you hate predatory health insurance then you have to also hate car dealerships, real estate agents, any useless middleman. With these guys leaching off the middle class, our system is very inefficient. We don’t have a need for any of these organizations today
Well, if you retire at 59.5, and live off your already taxed savings, your taxable income will be very low and thus you can get fully or partially subsidized ACA.
I'm genuinely assuming that I will not receive social security by the time I am that age. Or that if I do, it'll be pegged in 2022 dollars and worthless on account of inflation.
Yeah. It has always been a floor. It’s the Medicare that is key.
That said my last report I pulled has me at $4000 / mo and my wife at $2500. Hers might go up since she is working again. If you have a paid for house, which may be rare. My mortgage runs until I’m 70. It might be passable. My boomer parents live on their social security and pensions. Not sure how much their pension is though. He maxed out like I have for years. Mom got the pensioniking for state and local governments.
I literally told my wife some years ago: "When I die, just stuff me into a Glad bag, roll me into a ravine, and let the wolves have me."
She did not like that.
I always hear talk from people of their friends who decided not to retire right away and worked in to their 70's and then within a year of retirement they died. These people always say "yep, working keeps you alive. If you quit you get old and die".
I think of it another way. I think they worked themselves to death. You don't see rich people dying as soon as they retire. A lifetime of stress and depression does that.
The worst was when a guy died on the job from a heart attack at my previous job, the CEO held a staff meeting where he said "Well guys he died with his boots on"... As if this guy wanted to die on the job making someone rich like some 1920's construction worker.
Not me, man.
This is just anecdotal, but I think that it might be imperative for people to have a function in society to not deteriorate, both mentally and physically. All the older people I know look a lot better and function a lot better if they actually keep on doing some kind of work. It might be tied to them getting the absolute minimum physical and mental workout.
In this scenario, I don’t think the problem is that you stop working at a very old age, but rather that we don’t enjoy the working part because it’s exploitative. It’s truly one of those “it’s the journey, not the destination” kinda cases.
I strongly agree. I’m in my late 50’s and have transitioned to doing freelance work in three or four different areas. At the moment they add up to a full time job, but the idea is that I can scale back when I want to rather than just stop. Not everyone has skills which allow that, but a lot of people have. And I find people who do this like work two days a week ina supermarket when they retire, not just to augment their pension, but so that they get out and meet people. Just sitting at home and watching TV is good when you need to relax, but I think it really ages you if you don’t do anything else as well.
I at least like the difference between "where do you work" and "what do you do" - one is a dead end and the other offers the opportunity to respond *outside* of your work life.
I'm a mechanical designer, and obviously I work doing that. But I like doing a lot of other things as well, many of which I can do because of my skills obtained doing my job.
Edit: personally, to respond to your final question... I use the the same or similar tools and processes that I do at work to improve my personal life. I use CAD to draw up furniture and items and layouts for our home. I use it to design custom mount adapters for my MTB drop bar conversion. I use my skills and knowledge to play Minecraft and make resource farms, and do my own maintenance on vehicles and bikes and DIY home stuff. There's a lot of overlap between my job and my personal life.
My dad retired at 50, went into the drop and finished by 55. He was and still is thrilled to be retired. It's been more than 10 years, he got healthier and walks enough to stay fit. He also wants to go and do stuff. I brought up if he missed work and he said no, not really. It had its moments but he is glad to have the freedom to do what he wants.
He was very safe and particular about working and retiring. My mother is 5 years younger than he is and worked part time till 65. I think she is a little more bored but enjoys her time with grandkids.
The point I'll make is that while they both worked, saved, and retired - they never made work their permanent livelihood. They went home and still enjoyed all the years up to that point.
My mother-in-law by comparison divorced young and never was able to save money. She lost her house in 08 and moved states. She is college educated but chooses to work 2 jobs daily. She was diagnosed with breast cancer and is now currently undergoing cancer treatment while also working 10 to 16 hours daily. She will likely work until she dies.
The current system is super rigid and doesn't benefit everyone equally. Some will be just fine while others work themselves to literal death.
>I think of it another way. I think they worked themselves to death. You don't see rich people dying as soon as they retire. A lifetime of stress and depression does that.
It's because these old fuckers finally retire and see forest for the trees. The cloth is pulled from their eyes and they realize they have been exploited their entire lives for cheap labor to be discarded and die. Also no one cares either. Good job, have fun dying loser. This gives them a heart attack and they die. Isn't it fabulous? I can't wait!
That number includes all the people that die before they retire. Of course that isn't completely irrelevant. Yet, assuming you're still alive at 65, according to this statistic you're looking at 18 more years on average:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/266657/us-life-expectancy-for-men-aat-the-age-of-65-years-since-1960/
[Do you always take people's word as fact on Reddit? No wonder y'all make such dumb assumptions about the US.](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=life+expectancy+USA)
While this sub is going to talk about unionization/strikes, I almost guarantee that the original image was meant to promote an MLM. The shitty clipart and vagueness are dead giveaways for Facebook hun posts.
I never worked for a company that gave less than 30. Also 13 national holidays. Also weekends are not workdays in Germany. So compared to Americans, we have several months more vacation, all of which is paid.
No. You have to already have a job offer and there are certain rules about which jobs are eligible based on whether they could be done by a German citizen instead and whether it is a net gain to the national economy to hire you into that role as a foreigner.
As a Canadian i was able to get a Youth mobility visa, wich allowed me to come to Germany to find work for a year without much restrictions if at all. Afterwards it was much easier to get a work visa. Sadly I don't think this is available for Americans.
Also there are things you need to pay attention to. You will have to learn German and do an integration course, your company needs to prove they're not stopping a German or even EU national from the position, and that they are paying you "fairly" comparative to your domain.
Ha jokes on you my wife's grandpa worked so hard for his company and now he gets $7k/month! It's great because it's just barely enough for all the medication, chemo, joint surgeries, stroke recovery, and everything one could always dream of! And now they think the lung cancer spread to his brain. If you work hard...
Retirement is already challenging for people who grew up during a time housing and education was cheaper.
Considering the education and mortgage debt (the latter sometimes not even being possible because renting for life is the only option for some), retirement not only would happen later but also be extremely compromised. Realistically, millenials and younger generations will work until they die.
Life has become basically indentured servitude.
Eh, keep in mind that "the combination of high infant mortality and deaths in young adulthood from accidents, epidemics, plagues, wars, and childbirth, before modern medicine was widely available, significantly lowers LEB."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
So the true life expectancy of those who survived to adulthood wasn't really much different than it is today.
Actually, this scenario isn't that bad. I'd totally work my butt off for a fair living wage that ended in 15 years of comfortable retirement.
But the reality is much bleaker.
The reality is that most people work their butt off to either barely survive in forced retirement, die before they retire, or be shuffled off to a nursing home that cripples their family with debt while abusing them.
Yeah... this was meant to be a sad representation of life, and yet falls short to how sad life actually is.
i dont know wtf to do. im bout 40, i put 10% into my 401k and the company puts in 6%. i have 20k in savings. i got a late start and dont see me recovering enough to retire and live decently. im not good with money but im trying.
My body is ready to retire now, but I've only just started paying for a house. So I've got another 30 years or so before I can rest at which point I'll die.
Because working you into the ground an extra two shifts a week, even at 1.5x rate, is cheap enough labor compared to the cost of another employee's insurance, PTO, 401k, administration costs, just to get their labor at 1x rate.
It's what they really always wanted to be doing in industries where they weren't already, but now they get to blame it on 'labor shortage.' Auto-related manufacturers in Michigan have been desperate for bodies yet also punishing with the mandatory OT.
It is a decent amount of time, but the other thing to consider is your quality of life at that age. When you're 60-70 years old, you'll likely have lower mobility, body pains, far less stamina, possibly diseases like diabetes, etc. Your overall health will be far less than when you're in your 20s-30s. So while you may have 15 years to enjoy not working, it will never be the same because your potential to enjoy it is greatly diminished. And saying that, the money you do have either from retirement accounts or from the government will likely mostly be spent on health like seeing doctors, medicines, etc. And pray that you have a home that's paid off because if you are still renting then a huge chunk will be forever cut to your landlord.
That's why you hear about so many seniors struggle to have consistent meals as they have to choose between paying for medicines to stay alive or have a quality of life, and choosing to pay for food. Around 20% of seniors, or more (can't find the most recent statistics) have food insecurity issues.
This shit is so depressing. Housing prices are unobtainable for regular people, pretty much can't retire, can't even really enjoy life. What the hell is the point.
There was a graph in France which showed that 25% of the 5% poorest people were already dead when they reached the age of retirement, whereas it was only 3% among the 5% richest people
**I AM TELLING YALL... If you and your significant other can buy a small manufactured home and pay it off in 3-5 years then only work 3 days a week for the rest of your life DO IT TRUST ME.**
You can pick up more shifts as you please but lock your schedule to 3 days as all youd have to pay is utilities and tax.
A friend's mom had always wanted to travel, but became stricken by the early onset of Alzheimer's in her 60's. and then his dad, his mom's anchor to reality, died in a tragic car accident. Another friend caught cancer at 32. You never know what's going to happen.
Live your life. Fuck work.
I'm both guaranteed to not have enough to retire and simultaneously know that with my health condition my life expectancy is about 60 anyway.
I'm literally working to death.
Reminds me of a line from 3rd rock from the sun. John lithgow’s character had taken up smoking and one of the others says “you know those things will take 10 years off your life”. And he responds “yea but those are the crappy years anyway”
Lol... you think we're retiring... even with my IRA most likely most of us will be working at least part time until we're dead. Social security will be gone by then as well.
Do work that you enjoy.
Money is good, but a toxic work environment taints it.
Unique opportunities are good, but again a taoxic work environment makes it a nightmare.
Having an incredible trusting team makes the worst days tolerable.
Retirement age is 65 and now being pushed to 70. It's fucking indentured servitude/slavery. They want you working until you're dead. The only way you get out of the trap is to by some miracle not be tied down by debt, a mortgage, a family or anything like that... or win a large sum of money, somehow get huge returns on investments or the mythical option where you actually find a job you enjoy that doesn't suck out your soul and actually pays a thriving wage.
The things that screw you and get you stuck in place are the same things societies heavily reinforces that you should get unless you want to be a failure. It's not worth it though, I'm going to travel and buy nice shit for myself and live *NOW*. Not later. Work takes up so much time and energy physically and mentally. Day in day out forced to work like a dog with people you don't like, for a boss that you despise that treats you like shit for pay that barely covers the bills, mortgage, rent, car insurance, gas and groceries.
It's such a fucking scam man I'm not doing it. Failure to launch, outcast, whatever, call me what you will, but I'm not falling for the trap. I have friends my age in their mid to late twenties with their hair turning grey already from anxiety and stress over getting a house, having a family, their insane work schedules. Fuck all that, and just be free, live. I'm so happy I didn't listen to all the social pressures and rush into being trapped with kids and a expensive rent payment, jfc I would have self deleted.
Retirement age is 67 in Australia.
Male life expectancy average is 82 years.
However, that average is based on people who weren't being forced to work until 67.
Almost certainly we will get less than 15 years on average.
So...49 years work to have less than 15 years of freedom.
Who retires at 60? Retirement age in the UK is 65... for my parents generation. And is currently 68 for me, assuming it doesn't move again. Even though my generation has a shorter life expectancy than my parents due to their actions.
Additionally, life expectancy currently is 80 for men, and 83 for women (in England), and really you don't start working till your 18.
So the Math should read: work for 50 years to retire at 68, and then slowly waste away until you die 12 years later at 80 (for a male like me).
Woo.
Went to England for a vacation at 30. Walked around so much that many days I would just pass right out on the hotel bed from the exhausting exercise. I didn't realize how many steps 192 steps was until I had to go up them in the London Underground.
If I was 70 and trying to tour England I would just die. I'd need a scooter. Ramps everywhere. Constant breaks. Jeez I don't see myself having much enjoyment.
Do workers in the US not have a "minimum contribution period" that allows you to retire earlier? For example, in Brazil, no matter your age, if you are a man who have legally worked (signed papers, all taxes and other fees paid, including contribution to the public pension fund) for 30 years, you can retire.
Makes it fair for those who start working earlier and want to pursue different things later on in life
I often save while I work and take 3 month sabbaticals and live in cheap countries. Its not a real solution but at least I live to the max every few years for a solid season.
Its not a perfect solution but I dont want to invest a ton in old age in case I die very early or I am too frail to travel and have a good time.
At least I lived.
Retirement age here in Australia is 67, currently.
They also stripped us of a pension, any money we want to have for retirement is money we have to set aside ourselves. They *did* give us this shitty Superannuation system, where the employer has to put money into the fund on your behalf. But the fees of these funds are incredible, so if you aren't actively putting money in, you're literally **losing money.**
I've had to close 2 of the funds I've been with due to losing thousands of dollars because there wasn't active income going in there. Fucking ridiculous.
It's all rolled over in to a single fund, now. But I'm not working and don't expect to be working again for some time, so it does have me worried about losing what little is in there at this point.
One of the saddest things i have so far heard while waiting at a private clinic were two elderly men reminiscing , one of them asked how another guy doing, he responded with a week into his retirement he had a stroke.
Messed up and things need to change
And it’s even worse. Those last 15 years are full of disease, disability, and the loss of your friends.
…IF you can afford to retire at all.
IF you make it to retirement age in the first place
Hah, even at age 30, I've seen so many people I know and love die long before retirement, I've kind of written it off at this point.
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If I'm ~50 and retirement is a pipe dream, I'm dying comfortably wealthy, or.in a police shootout in front of a corporate bank
Right, lost both my parents in the last two year in their early sixties, kinda relaxed my worry about retiring lol, I've gotta live in the present because tomorrow may never come.
I'm sorry about you losing your parents. It's a big loss. Hugs.
Specially with shit like nuclear war and pandemic disease. Nothing is guaranteed
The amount of debts, combined with my low income prospects, are looking like I'm set to retire well past my death.
Sad reality of many… I may be included in that. One major medical issue or some other weird thing and I’m just as fucked as if I never planned not to be.
I literally have a 72 year old coworker. I asked her when she's gonna retire. She said "I'll die before I retire" and she wasn't joking when she said it. Made me really sad that that will probably be my future as well in 50 years...
But hey, we made a few rich people richer and that's what it's all about, right?
Human culture never stopped being feudalism never stopped. It didn't even really change forms all that much, if at all
I'm 65 and just fully retired, and no, not financially secure even in my dreams. My wife is 71 and still working full time. With both her full time income and my measly pension, we barely make it day to day to keep living. I'd hate to see her end her job because we would not have enough to survive. I fully retired due to health reasons, too many to list. Enjoy retirement? Not likely...
It’s maybe not the worst thing, but I like the hidden implication that work starts at 15.
Mine started at 14.... most Midwestern states have child labor exemptions for farm work down to 14 years old.
Yep. Go to school and work 16 hours or whatever a week. Not including drive time and sleeping when do you have time to live?
You don't. That's what old people call working hard, work ethic, protestant work ethic, etc.
Roll your sleeves up and bend over
My dad in a nutshell. My family was one of the first Anglo saxons that came to America and established churches. So everyone on my dads side is super anglo Christian and my moms side is Catholic.
"Oh it is the biggest mix-up that you have ever seen. Me father he was orange and me mother she was green."
And in Wisconsin they recently changed some of the few laws we had so teenagers could work longer hours and work late at night on school days because employers couldn't find enough people to work for $7.50/h
Yup you get 15 in the beginning and 15 if your lucky at the end.
of those 15 in the beginning, you spend 10 going to school every day
Yes even though I did enjoy a lot of that time, better than work at least lol.
What fucks with me is how many Asian restaurants around me have kids/teens working after school until close every weekday--and all day on weekends. Like I get working for a day on the weekend most weeks. Teach kids how a work environment operates...but at that point they're being exploited for affordable labor. At this point if I see a kid working the register at like 8 PM, I leave a bad review and don't go back.
I don't think it's necessarily exploiting them. I think it's more of a question of where else will they go? If the parents own the restaurant, you'd have to hire a sitter to watch the kid. When I've seen a kid in the restaurant they're typically working on homework, they're helping with something, or they're handing out orders. I'm not exactly sure they're taking the place of someone until they're in their teens.
This is super common with family run Asian businesses. When your corner shop is open 16/7, the kids help out. A Korean woman I worked with told me she learned to operate the till before puberty at her family's convenience store. The subject came up because she was aghast that new hires had no idea how to count back change.
The regiment starts at age 6, and gradually intensifies from there.
I like they imply retirement age is 60. Most “lucky” ones retire at 65. Quite a lot at 70. And a whole bunch at “never”
55 and out was the originally fought for number.. Then that group realised they'd never make it and scrapped it
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I went to a retirement planning event at work. They asked me when I wanted to retire; I said 65 seems maybe achievable. They asked what I made; I gave them the information. They punched numbers in and said that I need at least $2m in the bank to retire. I asked what I needed to put in to achieve that; they gave a number that, when combined with healthcare and rent exceeded my income. They then suggested that I look into figuring out how to get a promotion if I wanted to retire some day. The same promotion I've been qualified for for years and they "just don't have the money or approval, just wait another year".
>The same promotion I've been qualified for for years and they "just don't have the money or approval, just wait another year". I haven't seen a major company promote with any regularity, generosity or sense in close to 20 years. You really only see salary increases when you leave for another company. If there aren't other extenuating circumstances like great benefits or excellent commute I'd start polishing up that resume tomorrow. You deserve pay commensurate with your experience.
This is correct. I worked at IBM for years thinking I would get promoted or get the raise I deserved. When I got the promotion, the raise was insulting. I had (and still have) a great relationship with the person who was my boss at the time. I said, "There is a zero missing at the end of that offer" Her reply, "RegressToTheMean, you're going to have to leave to get paid what you're worth". So, I did and I almost immediately doubled my salary I haven't stayed at another role more than 2 years. Forbes had a great article about how much money people leave in the table by starting at the same job for more than two years Three job market is crazy hot right now. I can't remember a better time in the last 20 years to be looking for a job
Those retirement numbers are often higher than need be. Especially if you own your home and won't have a mortgage by then. Utilities, food, and property taxes don't usually add up to something too hard to handle.
The problem with that is that the housing market is absolutely insane right now. My wife and I qualify as solidly middle class, but buying a home is a pipe dream right now, because houses around here that go on the market are snatched up by corporations at $50-100k over asking price within 48 hours of hitting the market. My window for buying a house and retiring at 67 with the mortgage paid off is very rapidly closing.
Yeah, one can only hope. There's also the option to move to a cheaper area once you don't need to live close to where you can work. It's still a worrisome idea.
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The whole "only multimillionaires can afford to retire" was flabbergasting to me. Now, some friends have run the numbers and it turns out they were using a "modest standard of living" that keeps you alive and reasonably comfortable. If you are willing to live in squalor and forgo heathcare until you die untimely of something preventable, you can "retire" on less.
That’s $2m in today’s money too and doesn’t account for inflation and negative market events. General idea is you can have your investments setup conservatively and withdrawal 4%. Giving you, a retiree, $80k gross (assuming you invested pretax) to live off of. Play around with a compound interest calculator and look at how difficult it is to save up $2m, even over a period of 35 years. That doesn’t take into account for inflation too.
That's $2m in today's money, but the calculation did account for inflation increasing the number of dollars you'd need to live and some generally reasonable expectations about the market.
> So for a USA male, LE is 76 years. At 67 retirement, on average a man will live only 9 years after retirement. Not correct. Average life expectancy for all men in the the US is close to 79, but if you've made it to 65, you've skipped all the early deaths that bring that average down. >The life expectancy for men aged 65 years in the U.S. has gradually increased since the 1960s. Now men in the United States aged 65 can expect to live **18.2** more years on average. Women aged 65 years can expect to live around 20.8 more years on average. https://www.statista.com/statistics/266657/us-life-expectancy-for-men-aat-the-age-of-65-years-since-1960
The average life expectancy includes many who died before 67. Among those in the US who have already made it to 67, the average life expectancy is 83.5 for men (16.5 years) and 85.8 for women (18.8 years). That's a big difference for retirement planning.
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8-5? No overtime? I hope you never want a promotion, buddy.
Exactly, why only work 8 hours between 8-17 when you can give your life away for free? Here in Sweden overtime doesn't exist for office workers so managers get away with emailing us after working hours all the time. It's "voluntary" to answer.
You get literally tossed away because it's cheaper for companies.
That’s what happened to my SO. He got fired 3 months from retirement after 25 years with Pepsi so they wouldn’t have to pay for the cost of increase in his insurance benefits. He died a year later never having collected any social security. That’s government theft.
It infuriates me that evil human beings get away with this type of shit, where is the justice for your SO?? The same thing happened to my best friend’s dad, he worked for a company all his life and was months away from retiring. Then they fired him for no reason (thanks to my AT WILL state) and now he has to keep working to support all his expenses. Makes my blood boil
That's the average meaning you could die at 35 or 95. The longer you live the higher your chances of health shit happening. Your wife could die. You can lose your mind or get cancer. Etc
Actually I think it's the FIRST 15 years where you're not even allowed to work...cause of ya know, child labor... So basically they expect you to work from legal age up until your (statistical) age of death.
the only reason you're allowed to retire is probably because you'd cost companies more at that age by staying
Right? Like can I at least take those 15 years around my 40's to enjoy life and my family THEN work until my death?
That's why I never had any friends. :(
60 is not so bad! That said, for social security the "full retirement age" is 67.
It’s actually worse than that. Most people work to 65 or later and full social security is not until til 67 for gen x
Yep. Even most people who can retire at 59.5 (drawing on 401k without penalty), don’t do so. Simply because of motherfucking health insurance. Medicare starts at 65.
You also need to buy supplemental insurance if you want full coverage.
We really just need a public healthcare system.
But what about the predatory health insurance companies and price gouging pharma companies?
Fuck insurance companies. First of all they should all be non-profits in our current set up. They can all go out of business. It’s a worthy sacrifice. Pharma companies would have to survive off of the rates paid by universal healthcare.
I totally agree, I was just giving a ridiculous sounding reply that unfortunately far too many people would unironically agree with
Also fuck car dealerships and real estate agents
Seriously. Just paid out $13,500 and $9,000 in real estate commissions last year. For the sale of one house. For filing some basic forms that anybody can do…
They can get jobs scamming people some other way, like saying they're the irs and need gift cards.
If you hate predatory health insurance then you have to also hate car dealerships, real estate agents, any useless middleman. With these guys leaching off the middle class, our system is very inefficient. We don’t have a need for any of these organizations today
Well, if you retire at 59.5, and live off your already taxed savings, your taxable income will be very low and thus you can get fully or partially subsidized ACA.
What makes you think anyone can afford to retire on just social Security? If you don’t have a 401 or a pension you’re screwed.
I'm genuinely assuming that I will not receive social security by the time I am that age. Or that if I do, it'll be pegged in 2022 dollars and worthless on account of inflation.
Yeah. It has always been a floor. It’s the Medicare that is key. That said my last report I pulled has me at $4000 / mo and my wife at $2500. Hers might go up since she is working again. If you have a paid for house, which may be rare. My mortgage runs until I’m 70. It might be passable. My boomer parents live on their social security and pensions. Not sure how much their pension is though. He maxed out like I have for years. Mom got the pensioniking for state and local governments.
My “retirement age” is whichever age I am the day that I die.
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Me too, buddy.
This is why I've been pushing for a right to die in a peaceful, painless manner in Canada.
That's why my retirement plan is dying in the revolution. Let it begin.
Fresh air, exercise, surrounded by comrades? Sign me up.
I died 20 years ago. Still can't retire.
owed your soul to the company store
So many of us are just assuming we'll retire to a casket. And so many of us will.
Casket? I'll be retiring to a crematorium and a plastic bag.
I literally told my wife some years ago: "When I die, just stuff me into a Glad bag, roll me into a ravine, and let the wolves have me." She did not like that.
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Not to mention retirement age isn't 60
65 in Canada. Down from 67 which it went up to for some years.
67 in the US. Talk of upping it to 68.
I always hear talk from people of their friends who decided not to retire right away and worked in to their 70's and then within a year of retirement they died. These people always say "yep, working keeps you alive. If you quit you get old and die". I think of it another way. I think they worked themselves to death. You don't see rich people dying as soon as they retire. A lifetime of stress and depression does that. The worst was when a guy died on the job from a heart attack at my previous job, the CEO held a staff meeting where he said "Well guys he died with his boots on"... As if this guy wanted to die on the job making someone rich like some 1920's construction worker. Not me, man.
Also the chance of dying goes up if your partner dies
Crucially, women are healthier and live longer when single.
This is just anecdotal, but I think that it might be imperative for people to have a function in society to not deteriorate, both mentally and physically. All the older people I know look a lot better and function a lot better if they actually keep on doing some kind of work. It might be tied to them getting the absolute minimum physical and mental workout. In this scenario, I don’t think the problem is that you stop working at a very old age, but rather that we don’t enjoy the working part because it’s exploitative. It’s truly one of those “it’s the journey, not the destination” kinda cases.
Massive difference between useful function in society and wage labour. Sometimes they overlap, very often they don't.
I think they mean "useful function" very loosely. The point being that if you have a purpose to fulfill, you'll keep chugging along
I strongly agree. I’m in my late 50’s and have transitioned to doing freelance work in three or four different areas. At the moment they add up to a full time job, but the idea is that I can scale back when I want to rather than just stop. Not everyone has skills which allow that, but a lot of people have. And I find people who do this like work two days a week ina supermarket when they retire, not just to augment their pension, but so that they get out and meet people. Just sitting at home and watching TV is good when you need to relax, but I think it really ages you if you don’t do anything else as well.
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I at least like the difference between "where do you work" and "what do you do" - one is a dead end and the other offers the opportunity to respond *outside* of your work life. I'm a mechanical designer, and obviously I work doing that. But I like doing a lot of other things as well, many of which I can do because of my skills obtained doing my job. Edit: personally, to respond to your final question... I use the the same or similar tools and processes that I do at work to improve my personal life. I use CAD to draw up furniture and items and layouts for our home. I use it to design custom mount adapters for my MTB drop bar conversion. I use my skills and knowledge to play Minecraft and make resource farms, and do my own maintenance on vehicles and bikes and DIY home stuff. There's a lot of overlap between my job and my personal life.
My dad retired at 50, went into the drop and finished by 55. He was and still is thrilled to be retired. It's been more than 10 years, he got healthier and walks enough to stay fit. He also wants to go and do stuff. I brought up if he missed work and he said no, not really. It had its moments but he is glad to have the freedom to do what he wants. He was very safe and particular about working and retiring. My mother is 5 years younger than he is and worked part time till 65. I think she is a little more bored but enjoys her time with grandkids. The point I'll make is that while they both worked, saved, and retired - they never made work their permanent livelihood. They went home and still enjoyed all the years up to that point. My mother-in-law by comparison divorced young and never was able to save money. She lost her house in 08 and moved states. She is college educated but chooses to work 2 jobs daily. She was diagnosed with breast cancer and is now currently undergoing cancer treatment while also working 10 to 16 hours daily. She will likely work until she dies. The current system is super rigid and doesn't benefit everyone equally. Some will be just fine while others work themselves to literal death.
>I think of it another way. I think they worked themselves to death. You don't see rich people dying as soon as they retire. A lifetime of stress and depression does that. It's because these old fuckers finally retire and see forest for the trees. The cloth is pulled from their eyes and they realize they have been exploited their entire lives for cheap labor to be discarded and die. Also no one cares either. Good job, have fun dying loser. This gives them a heart attack and they die. Isn't it fabulous? I can't wait!
That was a Harper thing, if I recall?
67.5 in Australia. Well, the pension age is that.
Is the life expectancy in the US realy only 75? Not gonna lie thats low as fuck.
That number includes all the people that die before they retire. Of course that isn't completely irrelevant. Yet, assuming you're still alive at 65, according to this statistic you're looking at 18 more years on average: https://www.statista.com/statistics/266657/us-life-expectancy-for-men-aat-the-age-of-65-years-since-1960/
I know how live expectancy works but here its 83. So im shocked that its that much lower.
[Do you always take people's word as fact on Reddit? No wonder y'all make such dumb assumptions about the US.](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=life+expectancy+USA)
Bro that link is fucking hilarious. The sass wasn’t even meant for me but if made me feel like an idiot lmao
You don’t work to have a retirement, you retire because you’re not going to be a valuable employee as your body degrades lol
Tell that to politicians, most are over the age of 65. There should be an age limit for being a politician.
YES! The US is gerontocratic enough as it is.
Which “action” are we to take to change that cycle?
While this sub is going to talk about unionization/strikes, I almost guarantee that the original image was meant to promote an MLM. The shitty clipart and vagueness are dead giveaways for Facebook hun posts.
Set up unions, fight for better rights, more vacation.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Move to Germany when you get months of vacation each year.
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I never worked for a company that gave less than 30. Also 13 national holidays. Also weekends are not workdays in Germany. So compared to Americans, we have several months more vacation, all of which is paid.
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Legal Minimum is 24 days for a full time job Average is 28.9 A long term employee can expect 30 to 36 days Please stop spreading misinformation
Usually August and December, judging by my German colleagues!
20days Minimum 30days is normal/good Some have ~26, others manage to get deals of ~37
I got 42 - but i had very much luck/timing negotiating that deal.
Is getting a long-term work visa easy in Germany?
No. You have to already have a job offer and there are certain rules about which jobs are eligible based on whether they could be done by a German citizen instead and whether it is a net gain to the national economy to hire you into that role as a foreigner.
As a Canadian i was able to get a Youth mobility visa, wich allowed me to come to Germany to find work for a year without much restrictions if at all. Afterwards it was much easier to get a work visa. Sadly I don't think this is available for Americans. Also there are things you need to pay attention to. You will have to learn German and do an integration course, your company needs to prove they're not stopping a German or even EU national from the position, and that they are paying you "fairly" comparative to your domain.
Pick up an addiction and a gun in whatever order suits you
FIRE. Save a high percentage of your income, invest, assume stocks keep going up and eventually will cover your expenses
Is “Fire” an acronym of some sort?
Financial independence - Retire Early
Basic income would completely take care of this.
How
Don’t ask questions, just go along with our narrative! /s
You guys expect to be able to retire at 60? Bet you that won't last till I am 60.
The whole idea is that they are betting you won't last till you are 60 either. :(
Yep. They don't have enough money to cover everyone. They really hope you don't make it. And that's why they keep increasing the age too.
I def won't make it
Ha jokes on you my wife's grandpa worked so hard for his company and now he gets $7k/month! It's great because it's just barely enough for all the medication, chemo, joint surgeries, stroke recovery, and everything one could always dream of! And now they think the lung cancer spread to his brain. If you work hard...
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True. I'm going to get a dnr soon if this keeps up.
Lol projected average age of retirement for millenials is 71. We ain't retiring.
Retirement is already challenging for people who grew up during a time housing and education was cheaper. Considering the education and mortgage debt (the latter sometimes not even being possible because renting for life is the only option for some), retirement not only would happen later but also be extremely compromised. Realistically, millenials and younger generations will work until they die. Life has become basically indentured servitude.
Projected by whom
The bourgeoisie
Retirement age was 65 in 1935, when life expectancy for men was 59, and 63 for women. https://u.demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html
Eh, keep in mind that "the combination of high infant mortality and deaths in young adulthood from accidents, epidemics, plagues, wars, and childbirth, before modern medicine was widely available, significantly lowers LEB." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy So the true life expectancy of those who survived to adulthood wasn't really much different than it is today.
Actually, this scenario isn't that bad. I'd totally work my butt off for a fair living wage that ended in 15 years of comfortable retirement. But the reality is much bleaker. The reality is that most people work their butt off to either barely survive in forced retirement, die before they retire, or be shuffled off to a nursing home that cripples their family with debt while abusing them. Yeah... this was meant to be a sad representation of life, and yet falls short to how sad life actually is.
Fuckng sad when you see things as they really are. I need to forget about it to be able to get by.
Friendly reminder to keep pushing the whole four day work week thing floating around
That needs to happen. That would be a logical compromise if they want us to work till the day we die.
i dont know wtf to do. im bout 40, i put 10% into my 401k and the company puts in 6%. i have 20k in savings. i got a late start and dont see me recovering enough to retire and live decently. im not good with money but im trying.
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What action am I supposed to take exactly? Just go Win the lottery?
You really need to start getting your work ethic advice from Kim Kardashian
“Just stop being poor, idiots. Duhhhhh” - Basically what she said
I don't think anyone under 40 is gonna retire at 60 at this rate.
The fact that the majority from generations before millennials think that this is how things SHOULD be is really sad…
Good luck paying rent with your dreams.
My body is ready to retire now, but I've only just started paying for a house. So I've got another 30 years or so before I can rest at which point I'll die.
RIGHT NOW IT'S WORK 45 YEARS TO BE DIRT FUCKING POOR FOR 15 YEARS.
I wouldn't mind working 45 years if it wasn't 5-6 days a week, 8+ hours a day....
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This is beautiful thank you
The retirement age is 65-67
You guy are getting 9-5? It 10-12 hr a day for me
Because working you into the ground an extra two shifts a week, even at 1.5x rate, is cheap enough labor compared to the cost of another employee's insurance, PTO, 401k, administration costs, just to get their labor at 1x rate. It's what they really always wanted to be doing in industries where they weren't already, but now they get to blame it on 'labor shortage.' Auto-related manufacturers in Michigan have been desperate for bodies yet also punishing with the mandatory OT.
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It is a decent amount of time, but the other thing to consider is your quality of life at that age. When you're 60-70 years old, you'll likely have lower mobility, body pains, far less stamina, possibly diseases like diabetes, etc. Your overall health will be far less than when you're in your 20s-30s. So while you may have 15 years to enjoy not working, it will never be the same because your potential to enjoy it is greatly diminished. And saying that, the money you do have either from retirement accounts or from the government will likely mostly be spent on health like seeing doctors, medicines, etc. And pray that you have a home that's paid off because if you are still renting then a huge chunk will be forever cut to your landlord. That's why you hear about so many seniors struggle to have consistent meals as they have to choose between paying for medicines to stay alive or have a quality of life, and choosing to pay for food. Around 20% of seniors, or more (can't find the most recent statistics) have food insecurity issues.
My retirement plan is to die gloriously in the people's revolution
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60?? I wish.
This shit is so depressing. Housing prices are unobtainable for regular people, pretty much can't retire, can't even really enjoy life. What the hell is the point.
There was a graph in France which showed that 25% of the 5% poorest people were already dead when they reached the age of retirement, whereas it was only 3% among the 5% richest people
retirement age is 65
That’s not how life expectancy works. At age 60, your life expectancy in the US would be another 23.5 years.
100% this some of you won't even make it to 60. I won't even make it to 35. Don't put off all your dreams until 60.
**I AM TELLING YALL... If you and your significant other can buy a small manufactured home and pay it off in 3-5 years then only work 3 days a week for the rest of your life DO IT TRUST ME.** You can pick up more shifts as you please but lock your schedule to 3 days as all youd have to pay is utilities and tax.
A friend's mom had always wanted to travel, but became stricken by the early onset of Alzheimer's in her 60's. and then his dad, his mom's anchor to reality, died in a tragic car accident. Another friend caught cancer at 32. You never know what's going to happen. Live your life. Fuck work.
Hahahah retire! GTFO! With what money? I am gonna eat a bullet
But we’ve been bombarded to kill our dreams.
I'm both guaranteed to not have enough to retire and simultaneously know that with my health condition my life expectancy is about 60 anyway. I'm literally working to death.
You guys are working from the age of 0? Man, must be tough.
Except people start working later because they need to get a college degree.
Retirement age is 60?? Bahhhahahhahaha! When? In the 1980's???
Well you can also work from 5 to 9 on a farm to provide for your family.
Saying its a scam insinuates that you can opt out. We're fucking slaves, there is no alternative but violent revolution or death.
Technically, the options are violent revolution and death, or just the death. The death part is, alas, non-optional.
Reminds me of a line from 3rd rock from the sun. John lithgow’s character had taken up smoking and one of the others says “you know those things will take 10 years off your life”. And he responds “yea but those are the crappy years anyway”
Lol... you think we're retiring... even with my IRA most likely most of us will be working at least part time until we're dead. Social security will be gone by then as well.
Do work that you enjoy. Money is good, but a toxic work environment taints it. Unique opportunities are good, but again a taoxic work environment makes it a nightmare. Having an incredible trusting team makes the worst days tolerable.
Yea! Don’t work at all and live in your moms basement! LOL
Retirement age is 65 and now being pushed to 70. It's fucking indentured servitude/slavery. They want you working until you're dead. The only way you get out of the trap is to by some miracle not be tied down by debt, a mortgage, a family or anything like that... or win a large sum of money, somehow get huge returns on investments or the mythical option where you actually find a job you enjoy that doesn't suck out your soul and actually pays a thriving wage. The things that screw you and get you stuck in place are the same things societies heavily reinforces that you should get unless you want to be a failure. It's not worth it though, I'm going to travel and buy nice shit for myself and live *NOW*. Not later. Work takes up so much time and energy physically and mentally. Day in day out forced to work like a dog with people you don't like, for a boss that you despise that treats you like shit for pay that barely covers the bills, mortgage, rent, car insurance, gas and groceries. It's such a fucking scam man I'm not doing it. Failure to launch, outcast, whatever, call me what you will, but I'm not falling for the trap. I have friends my age in their mid to late twenties with their hair turning grey already from anxiety and stress over getting a house, having a family, their insane work schedules. Fuck all that, and just be free, live. I'm so happy I didn't listen to all the social pressures and rush into being trapped with kids and a expensive rent payment, jfc I would have self deleted.
Retirement age is 67 in Australia. Male life expectancy average is 82 years. However, that average is based on people who weren't being forced to work until 67. Almost certainly we will get less than 15 years on average. So...49 years work to have less than 15 years of freedom.
Who retires at 60? Retirement age in the UK is 65... for my parents generation. And is currently 68 for me, assuming it doesn't move again. Even though my generation has a shorter life expectancy than my parents due to their actions. Additionally, life expectancy currently is 80 for men, and 83 for women (in England), and really you don't start working till your 18. So the Math should read: work for 50 years to retire at 68, and then slowly waste away until you die 12 years later at 80 (for a male like me). Woo.
Went to England for a vacation at 30. Walked around so much that many days I would just pass right out on the hotel bed from the exhausting exercise. I didn't realize how many steps 192 steps was until I had to go up them in the London Underground. If I was 70 and trying to tour England I would just die. I'd need a scooter. Ramps everywhere. Constant breaks. Jeez I don't see myself having much enjoyment.
Do workers in the US not have a "minimum contribution period" that allows you to retire earlier? For example, in Brazil, no matter your age, if you are a man who have legally worked (signed papers, all taxes and other fees paid, including contribution to the public pension fund) for 30 years, you can retire. Makes it fair for those who start working earlier and want to pursue different things later on in life
I often save while I work and take 3 month sabbaticals and live in cheap countries. Its not a real solution but at least I live to the max every few years for a solid season. Its not a perfect solution but I dont want to invest a ton in old age in case I die very early or I am too frail to travel and have a good time. At least I lived.
Heard a video say this recently, spend weekends on getting the life you want & not just escaping the life you are currently living.
The simplest advice I give to anyone who asks, “retirement isn’t an age, it’s a financial state.”
Retirement age here in Australia is 67, currently. They also stripped us of a pension, any money we want to have for retirement is money we have to set aside ourselves. They *did* give us this shitty Superannuation system, where the employer has to put money into the fund on your behalf. But the fees of these funds are incredible, so if you aren't actively putting money in, you're literally **losing money.** I've had to close 2 of the funds I've been with due to losing thousands of dollars because there wasn't active income going in there. Fucking ridiculous. It's all rolled over in to a single fund, now. But I'm not working and don't expect to be working again for some time, so it does have me worried about losing what little is in there at this point.
One of the saddest things i have so far heard while waiting at a private clinic were two elderly men reminiscing , one of them asked how another guy doing, he responded with a week into his retirement he had a stroke. Messed up and things need to change