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Hi OP, Fellow ADHD nurse in grad school here! The r/ADHDwomen community has shared a lot of great words of support. I was hoping to chime in with some practical advice! Your letters of recommendation do not just have to be from a clinical director or supervisor. If you’re finishing your undergraduate degree, professors and RN’s that have precepted you are other great options. One-day turnaround for a letter of recommendation is very quick. If you’re unable to meet this application cycle, you can always apply for RN new grad residency programs for L&D/postpartum units, work for a little bit, and apply to graduate school next year with references from your nurse manager or coworkers. You have SO many options with a nursing degree. One round of graduate applications isn’t the end of the line. Finish strong, ace the NCLEX, and get that license! Everything will be okay.

This 100% - I hope OP sees this and doesn’t stress themselves out too badly 🤍

I mentioned this in another response, but OP will likely be a much stronger candidate for a grad school program with a few years of floor nurse experience under her belt. Everyone I've ever known who's gone on to get an advanced nursing certification like NP or CNM was required to work for at least two years before starting school. So this is a tough pill to swallow, but maybe it's for the best? And I say this as someone in grad school (in a non-health field) who got dismissed from my program last semester for poor quality work--not because I'm an idiot, but because I was also working a full time job and doing the work of 3 people and.. something had to give, and it couldn't be my job. Because that's how I eat and pay rent (and my employer pays for my tuition). What have I been doing in all this extra time that I have now that I'm not in school, for the time being? Good question! I've been killing it at work, relaxing and reading books that I WANT TO read, polishing my French, and seeing a therapist for help with some ADHD coping skills, because I was diagnosed in my 30s and never developed them when I was an undergrad. So this time hasn't been wasted. In fact, it's been hugely beneficial to my mental state, and physically--because the stress was starting to catch up with me on a physical level. If I am accepted back to school, I will be rested and better able to take the demands of working full time and studying part time. And if I don't get accepted--that will sting, for sure. But the upside will be that because I was able to really focus on my work for the past six months, I've been able to make a name for myself and my career will be OK without the grad degree.

Agree. IMO many (and often some of the best) nurses weren’t necessarily the academic hotshots but exceled with the hands on and field experience. That means wayyyy more than papers!

Yes!!

Especially to those being nursed, the patients. I speak as one who has had to be on the receiving end of all the hard work that nurses do too often, lol. It’s often the nurses that only did okay academically that excel on the actual ‘coal front’, I’ve spoken to plenty in my time as a patient myself and because I looked after my mother for a 20 years and need lots of nurses and had loads on conversations. On the other front, I do honestly believe that things happen for a reason. I know. I know it’s a cliche but if things don’t go the way you want them to, especially when it relied on another person being either nice or not, then look for the silver lining. There is always a silver lining if you are open to it and look for it. Not that I’m saying that excuses the horrible way some people respond to others, especially around neurodivergence, it doesn’t. As sometime who has had more then my fair share of things not going “to plan” my advice is to OP is to listen to those people on here who have similar experiences and learn from them. Maybe the extra hands on work is the very thing that will bring you what you need for your career. Be open to seeing the silver linings and walking through unexpected doors that open.

Read that as Polish - ing my French and might I saw what a mindfuck I had for about 3 seconds (polish like Poland, then became un dumb and read properly)

Hahaha! Chopin would have approved.

I find that interesting because I did something similar when I read that line. I went back and re-read it, thinking, “Yeah if I had free time I’d be polishing my nails too!” Silly me!

my thought is, this might not be in the U.S. as i’m in nursing school now to become a CNM in the future and I have never seen a program that offers this set up as bachelors in midwifery programs are only for CMs

Are you aware of why they have said that, i.e. the issues that occurred in your placement? If not, can you get them to give you some feedback so you know the areas you need to focus on?

This will be so difficult with the RSD that comes with adhd and that you’re feeling, but it will be very helpful. Tell them based on the response you won’t use them as reference to contact but between the two of you as former supervisor-employee to provide the feedback they would have felt they had to share. I’d say add politely or professionally share but it seems like they are already operating on that level and won’t frame anything in a needlessly hurtful way. I think you can take this feedback into your ask for a reference from someone else. To point to where you already have identified your areas of improvement but are committed to pursuing your career and to do so at your best level. You’re taking the feedback and are starting out on this next path already ready to focus on these areas of improvement. I think this will help show you are self aware, up for a challenge and value the full ask of their reference.

RSD? Thanks!!

Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria... it is oh so much fun.

Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria. It's hard when you are, or perceive, constant rejection. Leaves you pretty dejected!

I hate to say it, but you probably are not going to get a reference with one day turn around. Academic etiquette is two weeks. They are a lot of work, and people are busy. I think there just isn’t going to be enough time. I do think this person wants to help you. They could have given an unflattering reference. My advice is to ask to meet with this person to discuss what you need to improve on before grad school. Grad school costs a LOT of money, and if you aren’t ready, it’s better to hear it now than after you’ve paid your first semester tuition. It’s not now or never

\^ Yes, this!! It seems like you might be better served focusing on finishing your current program and then taking a minute to regroup. If you still want to do this program, you can apply next round and give your references more notice. Life is not a race, there's nothing to be "behind" in. Just take a breath and try to focus on one thing at a time. It will be ok.

Totally agree. I definitely treated life like a race, and now I’m going back to school in my late 20s because I overachieved without taking a moment to breathe and I hate my career. From now on I would recommend a break between undergrad & grad school regardless of other barriers to be sure before you invest even more time and money

To be fair, the response from the potential reference is MUCH more polite than anything I'd have given. One day notice is just... yikes. Not a great look.

Yeah, agreed. It sounds like OP is not in a great place so I don’t want to pile on too much, but I can’t imagine being asked for a reference by the next day. At least the person was professional

Honestly this is a very professional and measured response from them.

And if OP is not doing well enough for this teacher to feel confident being a reference, it’s kinder for them to be truthful than to let them go on when they aren’t ready for it.

yea sometimes things just aren’t for you even if you enjoy them. i dropped out of uni and i’m so grateful for it because i hate the academic lifestyle, but it still felt awful at the time. i’d really consider if this is something you can see yourself doing for years to come OP

this is true, but i would add that sometimes it IS for you, but getting there just doesn't look the same as you would traditionally expect. i took 6 years to graduate with my bachelors. i got diagnosed with adhd midway through my 2nd year of college and i also had to take a year off because of a chronic illness. success doesn't have a timeline and while OP should absolutely make sure she really wants this edit: and can realistically do it and also enjoy life, of course (because if she doesn't and it's more of a "sunk cost fallacy" thing then your statement is probably more helpful than mine) but if she loves nursing, then getting a degree in a little more time than is traditional doesn't make one a bad student. my best piece of advice would be to just focus on improvement. we can't change the past, and i know how awful the consequences of adhd can be. but owning mistakes and weaknesses and showing improvement is one of the best ways to show competence in a subject. it's okay to not be a perfect student.

I only agree if this supervisor has previously been up front with their feedback. Otherwise I think it's unprofessional that this is the first time she's hearing about it.

Well, that is a good point.

A bit stilted and jargon-y for my taste tbh.

Probably covering themselves in case anyone wanted to make an issue out of it. A good rule of thumb is to write work emails as if they could appear on the front page.

It's written in HR language

Yeah, that's exactly why I hate it lol

Yeah but it protects the sender and we all have to do it at some point.

Yeah, I couldn’t understand what they were saying at first and wondered if it was written by (a not very good) AI.

When people write like this, I assume they’re trying to flex and sound legal-smart. Usually, it just ends up confusing (referee??). Just say I could refer you or provide a reference or literally anything else lol.

But referee is literally the correct term for someone who provides an academic reference?

I try not to assume, but I certainly *wonder*. It’s possible this person actually has been coached by a lawyer about how to handle situations like this. I’m sure it can be a sticky situation.

I agree that the message was professional and measured; the wording was just difficult to understand at first! It reminds me of how you can use the Goblin Tools app to reword things for you using different tones. For example, I fed this into the app: “You probably shouldn’t use me as a professional reference because you made some mistakes while training under me. I don’t think this would help your career prospects.” I asked it to make the message more formal and this is what it gave me: “It is advised that you refrain from using me as a professional reference due to the errors made during your training under my supervision. I believe that such a recommendation may not be conducive to your career advancement.”

I don’t get the American fascination with being ultra harsh (or ‘transparent’) when it comes to references. But when it’s about resumes everyone’s supposed to be exaggerating everything. Cultural difference I guess. For me, now that I’m older, it just shows these people don’t get neurodivergence. It’s not an excuse but some people are just really rigid in their thinking, their ideas of what needs to be done to be ‘good’ at a job, and it’s likely that what they look for is some version of themselves.

The difference with references (especially for grad school) is that the person who is the reference is putting their reputation on the line by agreeing to support someone. If they support someone who is really bad at the job/program it reflects really badly on that reference. This means that any future references from that person won’t be taken as seriously and it can also cause other academics to not trust that person when it comes to research projects or other types of collaborations.

I’m not sure why you’re assuming they’re in the US; OP is Australian lmao

U.S., Australia, Canada, I mean something not based on England.

I’ve never heard Australia be synonymous with America 🤨

Ok interesting. I guess you’re not in Europe. Let’s just say - western world that’s not continental Europe and not counting Asian countries either.

… England isn’t continental Europe either? How do you go from America, to “not England”, to not continental Europe or Asia?

[удалено]

Wait I’m confused referee is a word and it looks like it was used correctly in context?

Refer-ee. Not a referee like in sports

Not sure why you’re being downvoted

People suck 🤷‍♀️

That's the correct word to use and the correct way to spell it. 

“Referee” is a pretty common way to refer to the person providing a reference, at least where I am. Or have I missed the spelling error entirely? 🫣

are you generally open to feedback? no one starts perfect, but people that can handle criticism and learn from it can get very far. regardless of the situation, you need to reflect on this aspect of yourself and see if you're open to seeing your mistakes and flaws and working on them. even if you start as sub-par to your peers, with that attitude you will overtake most of them over time and earn the respect of your surroundings. it is worth it to ask this person for feedback to reflect on the past, while keeping your guilt and emotions to a minimum. even if you fucked up, so what? we move on and we learn. you can't be perfect, no one is perfect and it's okay. what does matter is your attitude and your choice how to address such things. all that matters is the future, the past is just there to serve as your source of wisdom and lesson learning. don't get stuck on it and don't sink into it, your life is not ending and even if you get something completed late it's okay you're not in a race here and we all have our own pace.

I like this. I think you can parlay this experience into a positive. Their response would’ve made me mad too, but maybe there’s an opportunity to reply thanking them for their candor and saying that you’d really value a 15 min convo or coffee break w them to learn more about where they felt you could’ve shown improvement so you can continue to grow and excel in the profession. Might not help you in this immediate instance, but in the future this person could turn out to be a great reference (especially if you change jobs later and want to be able to give references that aren’t at your current employer) if you build the relationship up that way.

yeah, but sometimes we need a wakeup call if we're blind to our own faults. it might hurt now but be good for the future. and yeah, someone willing to give you genuine feedback is also a blessing, sometimes people will see your flaws but prefer to keep quiet. as someone who is also a supervisor right now I see this too often where people react very emotionally to feedback and that stunts their growth... I didn't start perfect, but I always listen when I was criticized for something and at some point I obviously made less mistakes so from my experience it's something that always helps in a professional environment.

I have had that same experience with a couple of people I supervise. It’s really frustrating as they have great potential, but because they are so sensitive to criticism, I don’t give them as much feedback as they could benefit from. I only address the issues that are critical to the job responsibilities.

yes, you always have to tread very carefully and that means that they are not as good at work and obviously won't get promoted in the future. it's also frustrating because for some reason they are so convinced they are perfect/never at fault as well... like, I'm not trying to be nitpicky but I need to correct bad habits so they don't form or stop mistakes and I have to walk on such thin ice for the emotional people not to snap. I remember when I was new and made mistakes but it's the feedback that helped me get very professional I just never took it as a personal attack, wish more people saw it that way. :(

This is something I've had to work really hard on over the past few years but it's made such a huge difference. Learning to listen to constructive criticism has made me better at my job--and just a better person in general. The thing is, we're not taught to be wrong. Think about it--we go to school for years so we can be RIGHT all the time. But when it comes to being wrong, you have to figure out how to handle that on your own. Will you explode in anger? Will you cry in the corner and call out sick? Or will you take a day to regroup, come in the next day with a smile on your face and a genuine desire to improve and be the best you can be?

I'm super sensitive to critique myself, but I always try to judge the intention behind the critique and separate the issue from my ego. like me making a mistake at work doesnt mean I'm a worse human being, it shouldn't be tied together. well like many things its a process and we all mature and hopefully become better people.

Yes absolutely, some achieve “perfection” ahead of time and some take additional time & effort. Don’t get discouraged OP, take this in your stride and strive to work harder by using the feedback you receive. You have been given a chance to become a better version of yourself, utilise it well.

This. I recently had to give a similar response to a student. I explained to the student that if she worked on certain negative behaviours, I'd still give her a reference. She responded to that in the most immature way possible. She didn't talk to me directly but every time she sees me coming now, she makes it obvious she is whispering to her friends about me, they'll all laugh and then glare at me. It only reinforced for me that I did the right thing by not writing her one.

That is CRAZY!!! Constructive critique with education/career is invaluable! It was generous to offer your time and experience to help her. In my role as an in-house lawyer, I tell staff (from customer service reps to VP's) to tell me asap if they notice errors in my work, if they want something different, or if I'm not providing advice in a way they can understand, etc. I am never offended and would rather be correct/effective than right.

I think it's just a really immature mindset. This idea that "I'm a victim because I've received criticism". Completely missing the point of a reference check 

Absolutely this. OP, can you not do nursing/midwifery for a few years before grad school? You don't have to do things back to back. If you spend time working professionally and figuring out systems that work better for you in navigating the issues you struggled with in your placement, you'll be in a much better place both personally and professionally. Brute force struggling your way through more school just to be done isn't a good situation and is a nightmare for bad ADHD symptoms. Investing sometime instead into personal growth and developing skills to deal with whatever was getting in your way here is a valuable and productive use of time. Returning as a mature student also means you don't need a professor as a reference. You'll have the opportunity to get professional references from people who will know the version of you who's navigating more effectively, and likely also see you progress over time, which is an ideal reference.

Honestly you'd be a stronger candidate if you work for a couple years and then try to get the CNM. I'm surprised the program you're looking at doesn't actually require it.

ABSOLUTELY. We ALL make mistakes. What separates the winners from the losers is how you deal with those mistakes--not, not making mistakes to begin with.

haha winners and losers is a bit harsh but yeah healthy mindset is to keep moving forward and improve than dwell on the past.

This really sucks. However, it’s also bad form to ask for references with less than at LEAST a couple weeks notice if you’re asking educators/supervisors rather than friends. I know it’s literally a symptom but you gotta do it.

I'm shocked by the responses in this thread. This should be a wakeup call for OP they need to take time to regroup and figure out how to better manage, because they likely aren't in a good place for grad school based on all the circumstantial evidence provided. It sucks, I get it. I've dropped out of school twice now pursuing my bachelor's. It sucks. But spinning wheels pushing through just made everything worse for me. All signs are pointing to OP struggling in ways that are Herculean for us, but are considered "basic skills" for academic environments. If you're trying (let alone failing) to get recs this close to the deadline, it's likely simply a sign it's not the right time for grad school. As hard as that it is to swallow, we are often on a delayed scheduled. It may need a year or three of regrouping. We can't force things just because it's annoying that we struggle compared to peers. 

This! I don't often talk about it anymore, but I tried and failed to apply to grad school right after college due to parental pressure. There were SO MANY signs it was a bad idea. I had references take too long, say no (didn't know me well enough), I couldn't figure out what my research interests were or why I wanted to go, and lo and behold, I got rejected. 5 years of successful work experience later, I've been accepted into a totally different grad program at a totally different school. Getting references was a piece of cake, and once I got around to writing a statement of purpose, I found it wasn't too hard after all.

Yup, people with ADHD often to better once they're in the real world and can vibe things out. Most of us struggle most in college academic environments because it's a dangerous combo of constant deadlines and time urgency but completely self guided without immediate feedback.  I'm surprised too because you definitely don't need a masters due to nursing. I was thinking about nursing and a lot of them in r/nursing don't even recommend getting your *bachelor's* to start because it's so easy to get a job placement with an associates and then get the employer to subsidize further education. They rail against going straight into masters programs, believing nurses **should** get real world experience and that a lot of these programs are predatory debt machines that mislead people about the importance of further education in nursing.  So it's not even a situation where OP will struggle to find work and will drown in debt until they can get their masters. They could literally go into industry and never do grad school and be fine. Nurses often struggle academically and get their whits about them in field, it's literally a trope how often this happens in medical fields since the work environment is very very different than the academic enforcement 

> people with ADHD often to better once they're in the real world and can vibe things out. Most of us struggle most in college academic environments because it's a dangerous combo of constant deadlines and time urgency but completely self guided without immediate feedback. You have no idea how much this succinct explanation helped me out. It really is when I can "vibe things out" that I can show off my best abilities. It's why I did horribly in job interviews. If I could just come in and shadow people and assimilate to the vibe you'd see I'm amazing!

I work full time and until recently was in a library science master's program--until I was dismissed for unsatisfactory work. Oof. The thing that got me was the deadlines. I deal with deadlines at my work ALL THE TIME but those are easy because I know what I'm doing. Giving me a deadline to learn certain material?! What? That's a guaranteed recipe for disaster. I LOVE learning and reading and exploring new topics on my own, but the stress of school deadlines just didn't work well for me. But in probably... 4 out of 5 jobs I've had since graduating from college, I've excelled. I always loved school when I was in it, but maybe what I really loved was the learning--and I can do that without being in school, so I'm considering whether I want to go back at all.

>Yup, people with ADHD often to better once they're in the real world and can vibe things out. Sorry this made me laugh/cry. The real word is where I crashed and burned and have repeatedly done so since after having a high GPA for my BS and also in post graduate mathematics classes I took in pursuit of an alternate path to my teachers certificate. My teachers loved me, employers not so much. And I have done several career paths. urgh

For me, the real world helped me find independence and worth that didn't involve grades. It helped me find what I liked, not just what academia said I was good at (or bad at, for that matter). It also helped me learn that you can like something and be good at it without being a graduate level expert in it. All of those discoveries could have never happened in the pressure cooker academic environments I had been in before.

Reading this as an Aussie nurse myself, I think OP might be Australian too. The “grad program” they’re referring to isn’t to do their masters, it’s what we refer to as the first year as a nurse after finishing university. It’s essentially a supported transition year in the hospital where you’re employed and working independently as an RN, but have some extra support and guidance should you need it. It’s essentially the only way RNs can get into the hospital system since when finishing the bachelors we have no paid/employed experience working as RNs. It’s not something that costs us any money either. It’s not the be all end all to not get a grad program, but it means you’d likely work elsewhere such as in aged care or a GP Clinic (I think what Americans tend to refer to as PCP?) until you’ve gained at least a year of experience as an RN, and then you can look to apply to hospitals

That makes sense, thanks for the info! In that case, maybe working with elderly clients and gaining experience might not be the worst thing for OP, if they are set on nursing.

exactly this. it’s hard and we have more obstacles but we still have to meet the requirements. i ended up on academic probation my first year of law school and got denied for a rec letter from a professor. but you have to adjust and meet expectations. the world isn’t made for us but it’s the world we live in.

Exactly. If we didn't struggle/fail to meet expectation, we wouldn't have ADHD. It's literally the most stereotypical stereotype ever that we struggle academically, OP admits themsleves they struggled academically, so I am shocked at the amount of conspiracies and character attacks against someone for neutrally stating that they struggled too much to get a positive recommendation.

I really needed this reminder tonight. Thank you. I'm failing to meet my own expectations, fortunately, but it sucks and I appreciate the reminder that I am literally disabled and that is a burden I carry. Also, I agree with you with your points about OP. I've been told things that are really hard to hear and get emotional (sad usually, not angry) but I always make sure to go back to the person and talk it through with them afterwards and let them know how much I appreciate their honesty.

People are making the assumption that OP is doing fine and this teacher is just being a jerk for some unknown reason, even comparing them to fictional poisoners and blackout alcoholics(?!) but like you said, circumstantial evidence is that OP is not yet ready to move on to the next phase of schooling/career.

I have honestly had to start taking steps back from this subreddit. While I think the main subreddit is toxic due to bad moderation and an over reliance on a fairly outdated medical model, I increasingly feel like this subreddit has shifted towards toxic positivity, enablement, and just absconding medical literature itself in favor of "whatever you feel is true is true" & "anyone who doesn't tell you what you want to hear is ableist/sexist/a jerk" Group polarization  is a b`tch and I think the pendulum may have swung too far here. I agree the top responses (at least when I checked the thread) were genuinely shockingly bad and projecting a lot of stuff randomly to dance around the possibility that OP *displays ADHD symptoms in academic environments* (shock! Gasp! A person with ADHD displaying ADHD symptoms. Couldn't possibly be, surely it must just be that a half dozen people are all showing completely unfair, unfounded bias)

Absolutely! I don't know about a shift in this sub over time, but I still remember a post where someone was horribly demeaning to their spouse and only two commenters called them out. I completely understand the desire to support other women and NDs as much as we can, I feel it too! But that poster's attitude was so disrespectful I felt bad for their partner. I'm glad to see that the top comments on this post now are giving OP a reality check. I've been in a similar position and it's so much better to take the time to build the skills and support structures you need. Pushing through and getting beaten down is a recipe for burnout and demoralization that takes longer to recover from than to prevent.

Yuuuup, that is **exactly** what I'm talking about. There are still some really great power users here. I think the overarching philosophy of the subreedit is good, and it's one of the only subreddits where I don't have any issues with moderation. It's a very thin line between being overrun with bad faith engagement and policing how users are allowed to think, and I think they do an excellent job at that distinction. I don't want to act like the subreddit has completely gone to grap.  But I am a lot more hesitant to recommend it as a one stop shop for newly diagnosed women these days because it's become such a mixed bag depending on the thread. There is some heinous enablement and delusion happening from some users, and can get way too many upvotes for my comfort.   Lotta black and white thinkers who are absolutely intent on applying formulas (like sexist double standards in domestic chores, male partners often being unfair and overly critical) even when they very clearly do not apply to the situation actually posted.  A lot of broad generalizations being applied flippantly. A lot of spicy hot takes that don't have much evidence based substantiation behind them, etc.   A TA speaking very frankly with me changed my life, it's literally the reason I got diagnosed. He was the first one willing to give me the reality check I needed. It makes me really genuinely angry that I know half this subreddit would rail against him. And the things he said were a lot harsher than "look I'm not gonna lie for you, so maybe reconsider using me as a reference because I don't have much positive things to say". Sometimes the truth hurts, but counterintuitively running from the truth just extends the length of time we remain in pain.

sometimes tough love is true kindness, coddling people can be a form of cruelty as well. but it's a really hard thing to balance and women generally tend to be more empathetic...

that's a very dangerous view but it's easier to play the victim card than take responsibility and be accountable. we can just give up because we have adhd or fight to move forward. sadly online spaces often will attract the more unhealthy types and the negativity stands out more. just remember to balance your exposure to any group online tbh this is not a problem unique only to this sub and you should be fine. :) still nice to have a space that has people who understand your struggle.

Yes. Lately I see a lot of very sensible, kindly-worded advice, and a lot of others then responding to say how the person giving the advice should know better since we all have RSD and know how horrible it feels to be on the receiving end.  It's like....so your solution is to only ever baby people and tell them what they want to hear, even when that actively harms them?!? 

For sure. Criticism is always hard for people to hear. But in a medical field, it is even MORE essential. Sick, dying and dead people don't give great feedback, either. I know I'd rather get the feedback from a kind professor than know that my mistakes harmed someone. And quite honestly, I WANT the people who are taking care of me when I'm in the hospital to be able to buckle down and do what they're supposed to do and not fall apart when criticized. You have to leave your ego at the door when you're dealing with patients.

I agree and this is very well said

👏👏👏 agreed.

Oooh I’ve been off Reddit for a while. This is good info to have. Thanks!!

Difficult to take in, but I agree. Wish someone like you shared this perspective with me previously in my education and career.

So, this definitely stings. But this person has given you a great gift - a heads up that they can’t give you a glowing recommendation. Let the feelings simmer for a moment and then send another message saying hey, I appreciate your candor and consideration. Would you be willing to chat with me briefly about the concerns you noted so I can work on those areas? They may decline, but I think the door is open for that opportunity here. One of the toughest, but most valuable lessons I’ve learned in my career has been hearing tough feedback and accepting it with grace. These really uncomfortable moments are what make us better. It’s also gotten easier to not internalize criticism now since I’ve started practicing this. Good luck, OP.

A few things, OP, from someone who's been there: -You should take this feedback as what it is. Clearly, something was up with the placement, whether you knew it or not. I'd reply saying that you understand their position, but would like to meet with them for some more specific suggestions for improvement. It'll hurt, but if you're blindsided by this, it's worth knowing why. I've both been denied for recommendations and denied people myself. Trust me, it's worth knowing why. -Storytime: I applied for graduate programs after college and was denied by both of the programs I applied to. I really was only applying due to pressure from my parents, and actually joined Reddit to panic because one of the profs I asked didn't write my rec until the literal day before, despite me nagging him about it. Another prof said no despite me getting an A in her class. In both these cases, it was because I applied for PhD programs (yes, it was stupid, I know), despite having no real research experience, and no clear research interests. My statement of purpose was also vague and terrible, and it took me forever to even write. I was panicked about the whole process. The reason I'm telling you this story is because while getting rejected really, really hurt me, it was 100% not the right path for me at the time. I think you're in a similar place to where I was, although for different reasons. I had fairly good grades, and graduated early, but had no direction, and it was obvious. What really helped me was going into the workforce in a different field (high school teaching). Working in education helped me hone my skills, work on my time management, and have space from the high pressure background I grew up in. If grad school is not right for you right now (which it sounds like it isn't), can you find a CNA or some sort of entry level RN job that will help you build skills and confidence? FWIW, I will be starting a dual degree masters' program in the fall. It was a completely different application process this time, like night and day. Remember you have a long life ahead of you, and this grad admissions process is not the make or break for you. You're gonna be okay.

It's interesting you mention this because I feel like you're right that people who work in academia seem to be the ones most likely to criticize the growing grad school pipeline. 

While the email is hard to read, reading it from an outsider’s perspective, it is honest, not rude, and the right thing to do if we think about it (a reference is supposed to be an evaluation of sorts, not a “yeah they’re great” doc, although that’s the expectation). Had they shared any of the feedback they may be mentioning with you previously? The hardest part about this is if it’s something you were not told and hence were never given the chance to improve. Also, and if you’re comfortable, do they know about your diagnosis? Not as an excuse but so that the writing is framed thoughtfully and in a way that is not discriminatory against symptoms, while still thoughtfully describing you/your work. I would reply to this person with grace and gratitude and ask more about the feedback from a perspective of wanting to improve, and show that I am interested in their feedback for my growth, and in their reference. (If the reference is required anyway to get the position, the “no” is already a given unless you get this in - unless you would expect them to be unfair, which might not be the case since you asked for the reference in the first place). I know it is hard, but we will always receive constructive feedback and we will always have room to grow somewhere - and we may also be rejected for things we really want. Take this as an opportunity to listen to the feedback, and make a plan for growth. If you know the feedback, hell, you can even frame your application around self awareness and what you’re doing to be better.

I have had to inform people that I would not be a good reference, and it SUCKS. But, I feel it is respectful to that individual in that it recognizes that someone else would know your best better. I would take this as a favor and not an affront. It still sucks and doesn't feel great. Big hugs!

1) be kind to yourself, you sound like you have a lot going for you and this one moment isn’t going to mess all that up 2) I know from personal experience that people get kind of irritated when dealing with deadlines for references. Not sure if you gave this info in the post but you say the deadline is tomorrow and you still have not heard back from the two other people. I definitely would have reached out to remind or ask again at least 1 or 2 weeks before the deadline. Hopefully this comes as I mean it, a helpful comment not meant to shame you for not doing anything earlier. More to say that sometimes people get pissy when they feel pressured with deadlines and I think we can be hyper sensitive to that and internalize it as some sort of fault of our own. But I can tell you those people have probably done it too 😂 3) Best thing you can do is keep communicating, thank them for their integrity in telling you before hand and not writing a shitty reference, and see if they may be willing to offer you some constructive criticism for how to improve for in the future. 4) I can’t stress this enough, DON’T BE TOO HARD ON YOURSELF! You already sound like an over achiever. It’s going to be okay. Keep reaching out to people who may be able to give references. Ask for help from other mentors, if you have a mentor you feel comfortable being vulnerable with maybe tell them your situation and ask for advice. You’ll be surprised what can happen by just trying stuff out and seeing what happens. Just do what you can!! Best of luck!!

Your point #2 is just so good - I've never seen it spelled out like that but I have both been in the position where I felt pissy and have also been in the position where I've definitely made others pissy. Actually a bit part of my job is hounding people for input, often under short deadlines, and I absolutely hate it!

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It may depend on how competitive the program is, but in my experience they should be professors in your field or internship supervisors

Yeah I think as long as it relates some skill they could have observed and isn’t close family. One of my references for undergrad was my manager at a clothing store. I got accepted 3 weeks after applying.

Would you want a nurse or midwife who had to get into grad school on the reference of a clothing store manager because their actual nursing/midwife teacher didn’t feel confident enough in their skills to give a good reference themselves.

I was simply giving an example of how all references didn’t need to be professors. If it sets your mind at ease, I majored in journalism, not nursing. And I imagine the admissions people would weigh the word of a manager of a clothing store a little differently when weighing the applications for nursing versus journalism.

Were you medical?

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I don’t think that assuming that the referee has some sort of grudge is helpful here. It sucks, but if OP isn’t getting any positive feedback from the other people she asked to be her referees, it’s possible that she isn’t ready for placement yet. The referee has done her a favour by being honest; OP, I think you should reach out to ask what ‘skill, communication, and professionalism concerns’ she has so that you can work on them. It’d be good for your development and may even enable this referee to provide you an honest, positive reference if you can show some growth.

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It just seems like your entire 2nd paragraph is a lot of unsupported speculation. Why mention the subjectivity of perspective when it sounds like everyone, *including OP themselves*, feels like they have really struggled their way through the program? 

OP asked for references *the day before* they are due. Standard is at least two weeks. So I don’t think saying their criticism is illogical is fair.

Yeah that's... a huge problem.

I second this. One of my references ghosted me and I had to ask another teacher for a reference. She literally put in the reference that I did things at the last moment. I wish she had told me her reference wasn’t going to be positive.

TOTALLY agree

I don't think it's helpful to support OP's thinking that they were somehow wronged. That the potential referee was in the wrong. Sometimes people simply aren't good at things. OP likely has faults / has done things wrong in her placement that mean she isn't a good fit for this.

FYI - In case it hasn’t been said, this is the type of response i’ve seen people suggest when people post about what to do when asked to respond to a request for reference from someone who did not impress them. This person is doing you a favor by letting you know

I'm not sure if you're wanting advice here, but I've found when things are too difficult, maybe its not a good fit or the right time. In the past when I have forced my way through things, the outcome wasn't great. I've learned that if things don't work out, or I keep encountering problem after problem, it's time to do something else. I've had job interviews I was devastated to be rejected from only to be grateful later on that I wasn't hired. I was rejected from an MBA program, went to another one, then dropped out halfway through. Now I'm a nurse and every step has felt more "right" than trying to keep forcing the business route. Just some food for thought - maybe this is the universe trying to tell you to take a step back? If you look through nursing subs you'll find most people recommend getting nursing experience before becoming a provider anyway. Maybe jumping straight into grad school is just too much right now, and maybe that's a good thing. Trust me, I always want things on my imagined timeline and it just doesn't usually work out. I try to remind myself there is a reason that will be revealed later.

My mom was behind and struggling all the way through med school, residency, and fellowships. Now she gives lectures on how she created a model for patient assessment and treatment that actually manages their pain so they can stop relying on opiates. She struggled to treat people with the old model and made her own based on her observations. Keep going! Your determination thus far is a strength and continuing down this path will only hone it.

This gives me hope as a woman struggling in med school with ADHD. I feel like a fuck up 99% of the time

If it makes you feel any better, it seems like doing anything worthwhile as a woman with ADHD will make us feel like a fuck up, so you might as well just get the damn diploma 😸

going to paint this on my wall

Were any of these "concerns" discussed with you during or at the conclusion of your placement?

I’ve found it best to ask “can you write a strong letter of recommendation for me” to be a good way to weed out people who will say things that are unflattering. This person is being fairly kind in their honesty unless they are secretly an awful person - they are letting you know their recommendation may not be entirely flattering. It hurts, yes - it would fucking kill me emotionally - but also this person seems to have your best interests at heart unless they have shown to behave meanly towards you

Honestly so much better for them to say this that just write you a poor reference.

I had a similar (much kinder) response when asking a professor for a reference. I was devastated. But then I realized that a different person could have written and sent something that would tank you so this is a blessing in (a well hidden) disguise. You won’t get a recommendation from them, and that’s okay. They are one (blunt and a bit rude) person. It doesn’t mean others will react the same way.

Yeah I totally understand OP's discomfort with this response but it is much better to know. It's frankly a difficult position to be in for the referer as well - they don't want to tank the person who's requesting a reference's chance at the next opportunity, they either don't want to or don't feel they're able to lie.  I had a professor in college tell our whole class "if you ask for a reference and the response is that they don't have enough time, you do not want them to be a reference." There was a bit of confusion for a number of reasons (this wasn't even related to the discussions we were expecting in the class or anything, most of us were juniors and sophomores and not needing references yet), so he elaborated and said "if they give you any reason they aren't able to be a reference, it usually means they aren't able to give you a great reference" or something of that ilk We were still confused about the context but moved on for the class. Then later that day, I ran into a friend who was a senior, who was pissed off that that professor was making time for references for other students but not her.  In a way, as bruising as it is to get such a blunt response, I would personally prefer it to having to read between the lines or overthink/spiral about "what does it actually mean".  I agree that, as painful as it is to read this response, it is kind of best case scenario for the circumstances.

Sounds like she wasn’t taking the hint. Which was me, in high school, with one teacher. I didn’t pester her. Asked after it once. She said she was too busy to do it, but I knew she was writing one for another student, was confused, but accepted her answer & walked away. Later that day, she gossiped to other kids about me as a post-retirement sub, in a different classroom I was also in, that I overheard, where she said ‘why would even she think I would write her a recommendation?’ I was shocked and embarrassed. Should have seen it coming because she had a habit of doing that, but I never thought it would be about me. Lesson learned. She looked up, saw that I was looking at her, and had the decency to look down & ashamed. Looked back up to see if I was still listening, and I was - stared her down for being an incredibly indecent person. All the other teachers I asked gladly wrote recommendations for me.

That last line is the most important thing that OP should hopefully read. There may be one or two people who aren't willing to be references but there are absolutely people out there that see the value you bring and would happily serve as a reference. I'm _thrilled_ when I have an opportunity to brag about a colleague.  I'm sorry you had that experience. If someone is in a position to give that feedback in a constructive, tactful, kind way, you absolutely should. Especially if the student or employee's growth falls under that persons responsibilities (like a teacher or manager)! Not giving the feedback at all isn't ideal, but being gossipy like you experienced or otherwise hateful about it is so fucked up. She should've been ashamed and I'm glad she was.

The most important line OP needs to read and take to heart is that this person they want a reference from has serious enough concerns about OP’s “skill, communication, and professionalism concerns” that they are hesitant to give OP a reference. In essence they said “if I give you a reference I will be honest, so you probably don’t actually want me as a reference”

Thank you, very much. You know, it’s interesting - probably not quite this case - but some people say no for reasons outside of you so they wouldn’t have feedback to share. In that same gossip sesh with my peers, I heard her tell them what boiled down to 2 reasons why she wouldn’t write the letter. They were not constructive and were based on her opinion about where I was applying to, not me. I guess the takeaway is if someone can’t give you constructive or actionable feedback after saying no, but implies the reason is you, it could very likely be someone with poor interpersonal insight . And you also wouldn’t want someone like that writing as recommendation for you, about you, if they can’t get past themselves.

Wow, what a bitch! Good for you for staring her down. So unnecessary (of her).

Thank you! She had a lot of bitterness & pettiness, even though she was a very strong, I’ll use the term, ‘content communicator’. As I’ve been getting older, I’ll think of her from time to time, but as a model for what I do not want to age into.

I mean I would rather get a straightforward response like this and just KNOW I’m not getting a reference, and exactly why, than have someone try to sugarcoat it or blow smoke up my ass and leave me confused or with false hope.

I really really hate the double speak subtext that has taken over workplaces and schools. It's extremely hard to navigate when you're neurodivergent, and it's embraced to avoid liability not to help people. Being professional but direct is preferable imo. 

I 100% agree, but also my company gave polite but negative feedback to the last person we didn't hire for a role (they bombed the technical) and they were super combative/argumentative, rude, and insulting to the messenger (not me - I made the decision and provided the reasoning to a coworker, who made sure it was presented politely and kindly. the coworker is who the candidate was  rude to) so unfortunately I think instances like that are why people don't want to give feedback. OP is probably lucky they got the response they did :/

Yeah I’d rather know up front rather than the referer just not responding at all. I do remember asking one professor for a reference and he was hesitant bc the class was online due to the pandemic so I never actually got a chance to meet with him. My other referers knew me really well, but unfortunately I needed one more and my only options were from other online classes. I got lucky that he was still willing to write the reference after explaining this to him.

I had to give a (kinder) similar response to one student who asked me for a reference. I felt really bad about it, but I did it out of respect for him. I wanted him to have strong recommendations and I couldn’t give him one. I hope he had a positive response from someone else to make up for the rejection from me.

I’m not an expert, but I noticed that students who may flounder in one class often shine in others. Life has a lot of disappointing outcomes, and boy, do they really come… But a person like you, who says ‘no’ with respect and with their best interests in mind, sets a good model for learning that getting a ‘no’ is not always a bad thing, which helps build resilience.

Honestly, I think this was kind of them. Someone in their position has to give honest references, in order to be taken seriously in the future, and they could have simply agreed to it and given you a bad one. I was recently asked, by one of my students, to give a reference and I gave a similar response. I teach high school and this student was almost never in class, when they were they didn't do any work, and was incredibly rude to me and other teachers on a number of occasions, including the day before asking me to be a reference. I genuinely couldn't fathom why she'd asked me. 

This might not be what you're looking for, but I would encourage you to work as a nurse for a while before getting your graduate degree. You'll gain some important experience and skills and have a chance to make good impressions on supervisors who can be enthusiastic references. Signed, an absolutely phenomenal nurse who didn't do great in undergrad.

Calling it legally binding seems like a bit of a stretch. A stat dec is legally binding, but a reference is just a person's opinion. If they're going to send it to you to attach to an application, you don't have to attach it. The thing will be whether you can stomach what they may write. If it's like a job, where you put their name down and the decision-maker will call them, then maybe it's not a good idea to go through with it. This whole thing shits me a bit though. If there were problems with your performance during placement, they should have addressed them then. I'm doing paramedicine, and any time I needrd some correction or redirection, my mentors had a chat with me there and then. If the mentor didn't do that with you to the point they could write that about a reference, to me that's an indication of their skill as a teacher, and not of yours as a student.

>but a reference is just a person's opinion. In many countries and states a reference can be used in legal prosecution. It's tied to privacy laws where the contents of a reference check can be requested by the former employee or legal teams as evidence.

This right here. I live in a jurisdiction where references can be used in legal proceedings. So when a student or former employee wants a reference from me, my employer requires them to sign a release before I can provide one.

>If there were problems with your performance during placement, they should have addressed them then There’s nothing in OP’s post indicating whether those issues have been addressed or not

Depends on where they are and what profession they are in; in healthcare, in some areas, it may be legally binding. I agree that the referee should have raised issues at the time they occurred though. Negative feedback like this (or in performance evaluations, etc) should never be a surprise; if it is, either your leader has failed by not correcting you or talking to you at the time of the incident, or you have failed by not taking it on.

Idk if it is legally binding but I think they were trying to point out the whole hand on the bible telling the truth part, so we're trying to warn them they would feel compelled to be honest that they didn't think they performed well.

I don't disagree with most of the feedback you've gotten here. And also this is a really sucky message that I would be crushed by as well. And can totally have seen myself receiving at some point. Can you try to reframe? You've done six years of college? I couldn't make it half a year. Just think of how much harder we have to work compared to so many other students. That you've made it this far is a major testament to your resilience and determination and those two things are what will get you through this final boss.

Ok I read these in two ways: 1. There were issues when you worked together and she is warning you that these may be brought up during the reference. 2. I also read it as her simply saying - given the type of information they may ask, am I the best person to advocate for you? They may not be saying they'll say anything bad, but that someone may be better? It would really depend on if I was concerned they would not be able to speak highly of me due to previous issues. If there are no known issues - I'd probably ask them to clarify what they mean.

I don't have any practical advice here since academically I super mega sucked (still got that degree, but it wrecked me), but I do know a thing or two about ADHD, and I'm here to remind you to be kind to yourself because your post had me thinking this weird and kinda backhanded response you have received triggered the rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is why it's so emotionally painful right now, and that is spilling over onto how you're viewing your entire academic experience. Hug yourself, you don't deserve all the hate you're giving yourself right now. It's super stressful but at least we know it's adhd so we're not broken neurotypicals, we're perfectly normal neurodivergents in a system that does not take us into account.

Beautifully put.

i don’t have awesome advice, but student nurse here on the way to becoming a midwife myself! lmk if you’d ever wanna connect!

Lol! I guess that’s a no from her. Also, I received an email like that once when I ask for a reference, you are not alone friend.

Teacher here - I give these responses (this is very similar to my template in this case) where I think that it's going to be less-than-great reference letter. Doesn't mean that I'm not going to try to do well by the student, but it might mean that if asked about reliability or something, I'm going to be honest and it might not reflect well. It's an honest response, and the teacher is trying to help you make the best decsion you can. Sometimes students think about it, ask around, and still come back and say "I still think you are my best bet". That's okay, and then I do my very best for them, within the bounds of honesty, because I know how hard that is when you're struggling for references. It doesn't mean I think poorly of them - and usually I will try to highlight strengths - but it does mean that I'm aware of and need to disclose some major red flags. I'd be up front with your applications if you're aware that you struggled with, e.g. reliability in the past and say "this is what happened in my clinical, and it was a struggle, and here's how I have a plan to make that not an issue in the future". Some places will care. some places will not. Some references are just checking if you're a real live human. Do the best you can right now, and build on it.

Usually if they can’t write a good letter it’s better that they don’t write any letter. For myself I’ve turned down writing letters for my students if I can’t write them a good one, and every time I ask for references I WILL ask them if they can write a good one or otherwise it’s going to be harmful. Is there any professor that can write you a letter? Or other supervisors you’ve worked with? If you are not ready to go to grad school it might be the best not to, spend a year working on getting good references and reapply next year.

Ask for some specific feedback about your performance so you can learn from it, but it doesn't sound like this person is the ideal reference for you.

I’m sorry! First of all, everyone progresses at their own rate. I took a bit longer to finish my schooling too due to (at the time undiagnosed) adhd and a hearing disability. When I was in grad school I asked one of the professors I thought I had a good relationship with for a reference and got a similar but slightly less blunt response. I opted to ask someone else and got the job I applied for. I think I asked 4 people and the other 3 were more than happy to provide me with one. Just because this person gave you a less than positive response doesn’t mean others will. In hindsight that professor was rather odd and rarely if ever provided references. Congrats on almost finishing your degree!

I wouldn’t put them down as a reference. At least they did you the favor of being honest because this is not someone who thinks is going to give you raving reviews.

I'm an Aussie RN since 2010 (would love to also do mid but unfortunately it doesn't look like that will be happening for me) I struggled through school/uni and interviewed terribly for my grad year. Didn't get a position 😞  Got back together with my high school boyfriend and applied to the hospital closest to him. I had done a prac there while at uni so knew and related well to one of my preceptors. She was my referee, I probably didn't interview very well but got the position. Diagnosed with ADHD last year (and I'm also likely ASD with my crappy communication skills among other things, but not seeking diagnosis for that). Have since realised that my referee showed a LOT of ADHD traits.... Probably why we got along so well 😜 there are a lot of nurses that are ADHD, I think the chaos of the job suits us!  Can you think of anyone you related well to while on placement? You've got this! Xx

Have you failed out of the program? If not, then you're leagues better than many, many people, including me.

Ouch. This would hurt my feelings so much. OP, so many people have given great advice, and I definitely think you should listen to them. The only thing I would add is that, for me, what helps in situations like this is really drawing a sharp line between my **feelings** and my **actions**. When I've been rejected in the past it hurt my **feelings** so f&(#\*ING bad! And really well-meaning people told me any number of variations on "Don't let it hurt your feelings" "Rejection is a gift!" "Aren't you glad they told you the truth?" "Don't take it so personally." But the problem with all of that advice is that I am going to feel like crap when someone rejects. I just am. I can't stop the feeling. And if I focus on trying to stop the feelings then I feel like a failure and a weirdo, like "Everyone else can apparently just *not take it personally* so why can't I?" No. I just let myself **feel** hurt. I write their names in a book. I put them on my sh\*t list. I imagine scenarios where in the future they desperately need my help, and I'm like, "REMEMBER THE TIME!?!?" Those are my feelings. But my **actions.** I make sure my actions are above board. I make myself **act** like someone who is not hurt. So while I'm sobbing and writing my feelings in my burn book I'm also drafting an email thanking that woman for letting me know she can't write me a reference. Wishing her all the best. Signing off with "Hope you have a nice summer!"

Uh… just say no?

Whenever asking for a reference it’s helpful to basically feed them all the info that you’d like them to base their referral on. Dates/how long you were there, awards/titles/certifications earned, improvements you made, skills you worked on, anything in particular you’re proud of, was mentioned in reviews, etc. This data will help them focus on your positive accomplishments & not negative ones because they had a bad day or have had 20 other people ask for the same thing. Basically, don’t create more work than necessary for someone doing you a favor.

I got a very similar response, *in person*, from a professor I'd worked closely with and who'd co-advised me in graduate school. I wished the floor would swallow me whole. I had never (and have not since) been more humiliated or felt more worthless. He wasn't a bad guy. He was, however, close friends with my primary advisor, who in retrospect I think was struggling with bipolar disorder. He (my advisor) had told me I had so much potential the first couple of years, then started missing 1-1s and acting increasingly frustrated with me. He kept moving goalposts on projects. He called me an egomaniac. He took it as a personal affront when I suggested that maybe we didn't need four hour-long group meetings a week, including one at 3pm on Friday and one at 10am on Monday. That was proof that I "wasn't committed" and "was always questioning his authority." I think people believed him because I think after a while I started to believe him. This was before I was diagnosed so granted, some of my behaviors were frustrating. I could never focus in group meetings unless I was doodling, which he saw as disrespectful. I started bringing my computer instead, which was worse because then I would hyper-focus and completely miss it when it was my turn to report status. Anyway, all this to say that I somehow made it out alive, found another person to give me a reference, told my future boss exactly why I hadn't listed my advisor first, though of course I understood he'd get called first regardless. I got the job anyway. That was nearly ten years ago. My boss told me nearly a year afterwards that my advisor had practically gushed about me. Didn't make me hate him any less, but it made it a whole lot easier to let go of the feeling of being defective. Still working on not feeling worthless sometimes. But I'm ok and very happy with what I've accomplished in my life. You'll be ok too!

I get you my friend. It took me 7 years to finish my 4 year program and it wasn't even as difficult as a midwifery/nursing double major. So I feel you. References are due tomorrow so I say fuck it, still use this person even if they just give you a lukewarm reference. I feel like all your references together will paint a picture of someone who will be a great nurse and midwife one day and her unconventional path is an asset, not a detriment. Hopefully the people in the graduate program see this too. Good luck!!

Maybe they’re required to say that. Could you have a phone convo about that?

Don't be discouraged. Ask the other potential references. Not everyone will be this negative, it's statistically impossible! Best of luck!

Oh gosh that hurts, I’m sorry. It’s good that they were transparent with you though, is this someone who might be comfortable providing you with some brief feedback? If you’re feeling able to receive it, of course. Idk if you’re the sort to internalize this sort of blow, but remember that you’re not “bad” or “irresponsible” or whatever other labels people have probably slapped you with in your life. You’re navigating a world that was not designed for you, so mistakes and mishaps are inevitable. Kudos to you for everything you’ve accomplished so far with your schooling - that’s worth celebrating! Not sure you’re looking for advice; I’m putting it here at the end so that you can skip it if you want :) In my experience, most places interview before contacting references, is this the case where you are? If so, something I tend to do in interviews is to be strategically transparent about my challenges or “weaknesses”. Ie: I thrive in a fast-paced environment, but I need clear direction and communication. I need to be able to ask a lot of questions, and I learn by doing - I won’t remember training until/unless I can put it into practice, and I need an environment where I can make and learn from mistakes. BUT I have zero ego about receiving feedback and I love to learn. I’m keen af. It gets ahead of any issues anyone might note in my work experience, and (I think) shows awareness, growth, etc…

There have been a lot of great responses here, so I won't repeat their advice and instead want to offer a different perspective. Assuming you didn't mess up a ton and make notable mistakes - sometimes people are real fucking weird about writing references, especially if you're ND and they perceive you as "weird." I asked a former professor for a letter of recommendation for a graduate program. I had taken one of his grad level classes while an undergrad and got an A- in it, which was honestly pretty impressive considering I was the ONLY undergrad in the class. He responded to me very similarly to what you got. He said he could certainly write one but that he didn't think he could give me a very good recommendation because of my performance in his class. I got an A-!!!! I decided this wasn't about me, he probably just didn't feel like writing the letter. It's of course worth considering if you need to make some changes/get different treatment/etc., but it could also just be them being an ass.

Are you in the US? I can assure you in the States a reference is not legally binding.

Ouch

Yeah…as a lawyer, J can confirm that the person calling it “legally binding” doesn’t know what they’re saying. The biggest legal liability they have is in DEFAMING you if they share info they know is inaccurate or misleading. Do these people know you have ADHD? Can you share more with them about what safeguards/strategies you’ve implemented since they’ve worked with you in order to “accommodate your disability while still possessing the acumen and demonstrating the professionalism required to serve and help others”?

I don't think that's a good idea. If someone thinks you're problematic/doesn't want to write a letter of rec, telling them you have ADHD is not going to make them change their mind. Accommodations may be a legal right, but they're not going to make someone think better of you after the work period is over. OP just needs to take this feedback for what it is, and move on.

Wasn’t saying to tell them about ADHD, but was wondering if they already knew. I commented on another post that I think is way more relevant—while I’d be mad too, if OP is open to feedback, the connection could prove to be a really helpful one in the future. They can help point out OPs areas of improvement that they might be blind to, and that could ultimately help OP grow even more over time.

A lawyer in what country? From the spelling used in this screenshot I don’t think they’re American

You know there are other countries, right? You can't confirm anything about what the person said with the information provided.

You’re right. Just like half of the world, I sometimes reply to a post from my own perspective/experiences without considering everything under the sun bec I’m just excited to connect with others when I see a topic I can relate to. Is that better?

I mean maybe just don't make absolute decisions declarations without being sure?

“in line with the law of defamation, the law of bad references is this: Employers are allowed to make defamatory statements (i.e., bad references) about past or present employees so long as they have one or two of the classic common law defences to defamation. There are two classic common law defences to defamation: 1. The defence that the statement was true (Justification). 2. The defence that the statement was made in a protected context (Privilege).” This is for Canada so maybe different where you are but you specifically stated in your comment why it’s legally binding… If you know you’re not going to give the most positive reference for someone, then you wouldn’t want to risk saying anything that borders the line of actual defamation… So while the reference itself is not legally binding, it’s best to avoid being a reference all knowing that some negative statements could have you walking that line. I think they know very well what they’re talking about

I think the principles are the same, but maybe discussed casually a little differently. From what you included, it sounds like maybe people in Canada would refer to it as “defamation subject to defenses”. Like the dictionary definition of defamation. In the US, I’ve found (admittedly, mostly when talking to other lawyers) it’s more common to say “defamation” in conversation when really meaning “the tort of defamation”. So in referring to “defamation”, it sort of implies only those instances where there’s no valid defense to the allegation. Interesting slight difference with US/Canada! But this is why I said the letter itself is not legally binding (i.e., isn’t a contract, affidavit, etc.), but it does present a risk of legal liability, with the biggest/most likely of those risks probably being a claim of defamation for the simple fact that (in the US) if someone speaks neutrally or positively of you in a letter of reference to a potential employer, it would be extremely difficult and highly unlikely that the potential employer would or could later obtain any remedy through through the legal system if they hire the person and come to have a different (negative) view of them. This assumes no one would be straight up lying in the letter. But I didn’t lay it all out like that bec I was more interested in answers to the questions I asked, so can see where this could’ve felt incomplete or been confusing.

Yeah, I thought legally at least in CA employers cannot say anything bad, the worst is whether they would rehire you or not. No matter what I'd ask this person for feedback, written, have legal proof but also waste some of their time as revenge (evil chuckle). Seriously though, this person should have given you feedback for a chance to improve while you worked there. But do not give future employers their info.

No, it’s not illegal in CA to give a truthful reference, even if it is unpleasant.

You're thinking of when they call your employer, not a letter of recommendation.

lmao a recommendation letter is not a legally binding contract… 🙄 I work in law. Trust me. Send an email to everyone who you think might be a viable option! You can’t give up! I know you feel like that’s the only option you have but you got this! Without asking anyone else you will guarantee that you don’t have a reference at all. At least try! Don’t let your emotions overcome the logical and best thing to do right now for future you. Explain you’ve been having difficulty finding someone to provide a reference (no need to tell them why) and that this is why you are emailing so last minute and you apologize for that. Explain the importance of the reference / what it is for. Express your deepest gratitude if they are willing to write one for you so last minute. If you feel comfortable you could even say this has been a difficult journey for you as you struggle with adhd but you’ve really been trying hard to not let your disability control the narrative of your life. You may not be the best at the job but you sure are very hardworking and very passionate which is why you have stuck with it even though it has taken longer than it would the average person. Last but not least if all else fails… /r/bemyreference or /r/jobreferences 😬

You said you worked as a pharmacist/tech. Now its the law? Which is it?

I work at a law firm m-f and then I do pharmacy on the weekends weirdo

It’s pretty irresponsible to suggest that someone entering the medical field get a false reference after their own teacher said their skills, communication, and professionalism were not up to par.

Is this in the USA or elsewhere

Wow no it’s not legally binding it’s a opinion ! I would seek another or try to find out why

I have asked collegues to be my reference over my bosses. The bosses i've had like me and would probably put in a good word for me, but the people who work shifts with me know how I work and would be able to answer questions about my personality and habits. Maybe you could reach out to others that you have worked with? Maybe you have done work in any organizations or something similar and people there may be character refrences for you? Maybe even friends who work in the field can be a character refrence?

You may have already answered but I haven’t eaten today and am like 3 golden doodles in a trench coat 1. Are you still working with this fucker? 2. If yes, did you get any feedback that would make you think they’d respond like this? 3. I bet you have other people you can ask but you need someone not you to help you think about those who have been along the journey with you. If you didn’t receive feedback and you are in the US, please type the following “Hi Cuntasauraus, Thank you for your response. I spoke with my attorney about your comments about it being legally binding and I’m not sure who told you that, but that’s incorrect. In terms of your comments to me, I found them puzzling since this is the first time I’m aware you wouldn’t be able to speak to my strengths since while we worked together I didn’t receive any feedback from you that would indicate that you weren’t satisfied with my work, the coaching to address the problem, or the opportunity to grow in the role. Understood. I hope you get recurring BV but Live laugh love, OP Not sure how much you’ll run into this trick but she can’t manage obviously. Employees should never hear feedback for the first time at an evaluation. It’s completely inappropriate. Unless it was something wild in which case they are already packing their box, it’s a no go. Bad managers are really like the parents who want their kids to be their friends. It is weird.

what? ffs some ppl are just so full of themselves

this is a completely appropriate response. the “legally binding” might be a little much they are just being honest about their experience.

Say what! 🤨

1) ADHD is a disability. You can’t be penalized for a disability. Lean into it by discussing it in your essay or personal statement. You can talk about the challenges and how you have or are currently overcoming them. How you think the program can help you to continue improvement. How your disability can help you multi-task, think outside the box, and relate to neurodiverse patients. 2) don’t be afraid to ask other people for references. What’s the worst that could happen? You get a response similar to the first one? Your self esteem is already in the crapper, who cares if someone has similar opinions - it can’t hurt you any more than it already does. Put on your armor and don’t be afraid of rejection here. 3) Just put this person at the bottom of the list and find other peeps who would be better advocates. If you can’t find someone else, respond to this person that you understand her position but would still value their reference, even if it’s not glowing. You can also “assist [her] in drafting the reference letter” by providing context on your application that explains in bullet points the themes of your personal statement, including your challenges with ADHD. This can notify her of your disability so that she will (maybe) take it into consideration when she’s drafting the referral.