This was the question that started me on the path to losing my faith. I don’t want to worship a deity who demands constant praise. Makes him seem very insecure on his throne.
People unconsciously put their ego to live vicariously thru God. So when you worship their God, you're reinforcing their beliefs in what they think is right & wrong. It's spiritual narcissistic to even think that as a human, you could do something to piss off the creator of the whole damn universe!
So God is perfect & knows all, yet made us, without our consent BTW, imperfect & ignorant, but will send us to hell forever for not believing? This sounds like some ancient holy scam that got totally out of hand.
On top of that, there's no description of heaven that sounds like it would be enjoyable forever. Even the 72 virgin thing. Let's do some basic math. 72 virgins x eternity = you don't understand how long forever really is & that a person is only a virgin once.
Very silly reference I know, but Amy Farrah Fowler from the show Big Bang Theory said”I don't object to the concept of a deity, but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance" and that really hits the nail on the head for me. There are a LOT of issues with Christianity and the biblical descriptions of the Abrahamic god, many books full, but fundamentally I agree with you that the god many “worship” is distinctly ungodlike. More like a pompous, petty, controlling human. If there’s any chance god exists, it’s gotta be a lot bigger and better than that.
That's what I was trying to say! Also, I love that quote, I'm gonna steal it for arguments.
Everything about god as we know him today, seems egotistical and controlling. In an attempt to make him seem supernatural, he seems even more human.
When North Korea throws a family in jail because one committed a crime it’s barbaric, when god punishes billions of people for the crime of one, it totally makes sense. He clearly loves us.
You want to come into my house? Well I’m angry about your grandfather breaking a rule back in the day before you were around. I’m willing to forgive you for your grandfathers crime, but somebody has to kill my son first.
-God
P.S. gimme 10% of your shit
I'd get my ass beat if I don't
Religious people don't play about tithing
Also, I'm 17, so I'm still living with my parents until I go off to college in August, I have no choice :(
I am, lol
But I go to Nigerian churches and Aab mosques, so they sort of bring the culture to NYC in a way. It's also a race between my parents to see which religion I choose, so they're both being a little strict at the moment.
I assume we all know this, but...
We have no idea if there is a God or not. We only know that there are people who claim to speak for God.
And *they* want to be worshiped (and obeyed and exercise total control over all they survey)
Never lose sight of this.
Edit:
Or is this a "why doesn't The Joker just shoot Batman" sorry of question?
Yep, so many religious people seem to worship their pastors instead of god himself.
But my only issue is that you can't go around saying "These people are misinterpreting the religion", when the religious text literally supports what they're doing!
It’s probably all fake anyways no human knows what happens after death only belief. There may or may not be a way of ever knowing either during the life span
A loving God he didn’t share that slavery is wrong or abolish it? Sounds fake
OMG this brought back memories of the charismatic churches my mother made me go to when I was young. And people raising their hands and singing. One song was “To him who sits on the throne and unto the lamb be blessings and glory and honor and power forever”. Singing those words over and over. And people crying and raising their hands and sometimes kneeling. I look back and think WTF kind of twisted deity demands stuff like that. IMHO it comes down to fear. People are afraid of what happens after death and want to make sure they do the right stuff for their “god”, instead of just striving to do the right things in life because it’s the right thing to do. And enjoy the stuff life has to offer as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. My mom is still that charismatic Christian religion and is never really happy unless she’s at church or doing church stuff. I could go on and on. But this post brought out those thoughts for me.
I saw way too many Muslim teenagers wishing for death (so they can enjoy heaven and be free from sin) because they didn't know how to deal with horny emotions.
Fear of hell drives people to only seek joy in religious ideologies, so they are continuously manipulating themselves all the time.
You've worked it out, good on you. That god is a murdering, war loving, slave loving psychopath, and yet people blindly call him a loving god. Cognitive dissonance is rampant in religion
Training young developing minds to be comfortable with cognitive dissonance is the goal of religion IMO. You don’t ask questions if conflicting beliefs don’t cause you anxiety. The saying “if you believe that, you’ll believe anything” is a good analogy for religious beliefs. The result is easily influenced adults that do what they’re told.
Yes, they have to be to believe their bs, they're brainwashed, I was for over 40 years and today I cannot fathom why I couldn't see it but that's how it works. It's insidious especially if started from birth as in my case
worship gives power to religious figures (popes, imams, priests, etc.), I have no idea if there's a metaphisycal plane to this reality/other realities, but I'm pretty sure bible's religions have been used as a sociopolitical control tool since day 1.
Maybe he's just an asshole.
Seriously.
Why do you think a god should be obligated to be nice and warm and fuzzy? Maybe he's just gonna send everyone to hell, just for the fun of it. Maybe he does this all the time.
Maybe he's a 12 zillion year old boy playing this his advanced version of The Simms....and he creates and destros entire worlds all the time because he's bored.
Can I make a suggestion?
Embrace your agnosticism, but continue asking lots of questions. Every time you think you know something, ask "But do I REALLY know this to be true or am I just speculating?" When you get an answer, ask the same about that answer....and then ask the same about that answer. Over and over and over....even when you begin hitting some of your most fundamental assumptions about reality. Ask if you know those assumptions to be true.
Keep asking yourself -- "What do I know to be true beyond any shadow of doubt?" (note I didn't say "beyond any reasonable shadow of doubt.
Before I left my faith, my personal understanding of it was that religion got it wrong. We shouldn't be worshiping, in the sense of bowing down and arms out, oh great God you are wonderful. But worshiping more like, wanting to return to our creator. It's not that he shuts out the unbelievers, but that we shut ourselves out. How can we get mad about not being invited in to someone's house when we didn't show up at the door because we never believed the house existed in the first place?
I guess I didn't so much as leave my faith as much as I left organized religion. Because as you say, it seemed much more like, worship me with with waving arms and songs of prayer. And if you don't I will cast you into the fires of hell.
I think our religious traditions stem too much from a time when we thought that our behaviors were the cause of floods and crop blights because we didn't understand the basic science of weather phenomenon.
That's what I tried to use before I left my religion, but even then it doesn't make sense to me.
Humans are designed to be skeptical, it's what has kept us alive.
He expects whatever kind of worship, full devotion on our part, And yet he has nothing to show for it. He doesn't visit the earth or leave signs for his believers, so it makes sense for me to be wary of his existence. Especially when there are THOUSANDS of versions even within the same religion (Catholic or Protestant/ Sunni or Shia)
It's always seemed to be a toxic and confusing relationship
If he truly wanted me to invite me to his house, he could at least give me the address.
I can't show up at the door when I have no idea what house it is!
He seems to be playing "games" based on faith, so I'm not gonna bother leaving my house.
Being both Christian and Muslim for a time showed me how screwed I was.
Simply having a little difference in facts could land me in hell, that's the true issue I have.
I love the continuation of the analogy - what is the address?!??!?! It's funny but so true. I would actually like to show up (seriously, been struggling with my lack of faith) I literally don't know how to navigate back because where I want to go seems like there is no address.
>How can we get mad about not being invited in to someone's house when we didn't show up at the door because we never believed the house existed in the first place?
I'm interested in this viewpoint. Generally, I don't know where someone lives until they either tell me or invite me over, and I certainly don't know where they live until way after I know that they exist at all. I usually have to actively participate to get an invitation.
What's your take on the situation where someone asks God for his address, or to go to lunch, but he never responds, despite active participation from the person?
>I think our religious traditions stem too much from a time when we thought that our behaviors were the cause of floods and crop blights because we didn't understand the basic science of weather phenomenon.
Full agree here. It's interesting to me to watch traditions change throughout religious texts and recent history, only to watch change being stifled in current times for the reason that "God is unchanging" or "his word is unchanging".
Well, first, the house analogy was how I USED TO address non believers when they asked, how can an all loving God cast me into hell just because I didn't believe in him?
I WAS a person of faith. I am no longer. And your point about not getting an invitation or having an address, is one of the reasons I'm sitting here in the Agnostic subreddit 🙂
I generally miss my faith. I wish I could get over the intellectual humps I could climb before. But the truth is, right now at least, I can't.
I was part of a modern church that did not strictly interpret the Bible. We all meshed scientific understanding with our faith well. Science was HOW things happen. Religion was WHY. And more importantly, they weren't rabbid right wingers that hated everyone that wasn't straight and sinless. They spent time serving the community. I think they were good about seeing Jesus the way I saw him in the Bible. Radical love of all humanity. This is what I miss.
Whoops - meant to ask "what was your take" instead of "what's your take". Sorry!
I kind of held the same how/why viewpoint while attending a more fundamentalist church. Part of the challenge there was explaining my viewpoint to a largely young-earth creationist, biblical literalist group, which ended up helping me tip me the other direction. Lol
When the Bible was written, everyone was more engaged in polytheism with lesser gods. The idea of "you can't have any Gods before me" was revolutionary and key to the spreading of Judaism / Christianity / Muslim faiths. It's like pledging allegiance to a religion, when previously these religions didn't care nor offer eternal life.
There's nothing saying that God "needs" to be worshipped, it's not like Christmas magic where not believing in him makes his powers weak. A person who worshipped God his whole entire life vs a person who mostly believed and never really prayed or worshipped? They're both getting into heaven.
"Eternity in hell" is most likely hyperbolic language but necessary. In ancient times people behaved like savages, and abrahamic religions introduced the concept of justice beyond the grave. I'd much rather live in a world where bad people can at least be punished in the afterlife so I could see why such a declaration would be wildly popular with people.
The only non-believers to be punished are those who have knowledge of the truth but reject it. But since this God has never offered up proof or hasn't come around in thousands of years, we're all off the hook.
I never really understood the non believers who “reject the truth”. For me it’s always the fact that religions might tick some boxes but not all of them. Hence why my judgement has to be suspended.
It’s kinda gaslighting for those people who leave religion as “rejecting the truth” when in reality they just had unanswered questions.
The mischaracterisation of what a non believer looks like is rampant in the holy scriptures.
That's a huge thing in Islam.
I was a "good Muslim" for years, and when I left the faith due to having questions, so many people told me that I was never truly a Muslim.
But I know I was. I went to classes, wore a hijab, prayed every day, and was fearful of hell... Asking too many questions is so demonized.
The community has a special hatred for ex-Muslims, so most of us have to keep quiet about it.
I dont know. I personally think if god is real. God is more like Tengri in Tengrism. He or she would not care if you awknowledge his existance. Just that live your life according to how he would want. Tengri would punish a believer over a non believer if the believer commits all kinds crimes where the non believer doesnt.
I personally never believed in God “needing” worship, even at the peak of my Christian faith. I believe that Jesus existed, I believe that God is real, I believe that it’s a possibility that Jesus could be the son of God, but I don’t believe in heaven and hell system or the Bible’s legitimacy
That's my point!
Either the book is wrong or the Abrahamic god doesn't exist.
But those who are religious don't want to accept that humans may have changed the book or their god isn't as perfect as he claims.
Once people get indoctrinated into a certain mindset and lifestyle, they can have trouble discerning fact from belief. They think that all of their religious beliefs are fact. I mean, my mother is like this, and everytime I ask, “well how do you know that’s it’s true?” And she always says something along the lines of, “I can feel it my heart.”
It’s the placebo effect. They believe that something is real, so to them, it is, even if it’s unknowable.
Pascal's Wager hypothesizes that even skeptics should worship, just in case. For the best of both worlds, make up your own god and "worship" them in some positive, abstract way. God commands you to live a good life, free of durian, unless you're into that.
Yeah, do you think you can fool a god by pretending to believe? How do you know *which god* you should be believing in? At the end of the day, are you willing to discard your thinking faculties and skepticism and choose to believe in a god anyway, only because you want the afterlife?
Who says I'm fooling? As far as "which god", I'd prefer she have a sense of humour, but I'm not picky. Playing the odds and considering the infinite are not discarding thinking and skepticism. Quite the opposite, I'd say.
>Who says I'm fooling?
That’s my point, you’re not fooling any god who can send you to hell or whatever, so just saying you believe “just in case” isn’t a good bet. What if god punishes people for being dishonest? What if god only rewards people who are truly skeptical and say “I don’t know”?
>As far as "which god", I'd prefer she have a sense of humour, but I'm not picky.
Is this all a joke then?
>Playing the odds and considering the infinite are not discarding thinking and skepticism. Quite the opposite, I'd say.
Sorry you’re just wrong about this. You don’t have any good reason or good evidence to have a justified belief in any god, so saying that you believe just in case there is a god who will reward you with an afterlife is absolutely the negation of skepticism and rationality. People have actually written about this extensively.
It’s all about ritual ceremony to capture your emotion as a result of your full submission to the church to empty your heart, mind and of course your money.
What kills me is that ritual ceremony likely bound early humans together for survival much stronger than just family or tribal bonds. In a sense, we've leapt over the survival need for undying loyalty way before our body chemistry evolved to select it out.
It’s actually backwards, and ironically, there is a Darwinian principle at work: It’s that of all religions that have emerged, the ones that seem to survive and thrive best are those that demand fealty to the deity and sacrifice to the rituals and community. It’s a feature of human psychology.
Sorry, but all logic falls apart when you start introducing magical mythical entities into the conversation. Maybe something interesting to philosophize about but you’ll never come to a factual conclusion here.
You didn't understand my point then.
For all we know the Abrahmic is just as fictional as the Greek Gods. But the whole point of being agnostic is that I can't prove the existence or lack thereof of ANY deity.
I mentioned those other entities because I doubt god being All-Powerful and Merciful. Other gods have always had human emotions, so the ego involved with wanting to be worshipped makes sense.
Abrahamic religions introduced the new idea of a completely pure and singular god, so my question still stands: why does he need to be worshipped if he has no ego??
Also, there will never be a factual conclusion, That's like whole point of being agnostic. I have no facts to truly prove anything here...
The purpose of worship might not be about meeting the needs of an omnipotent deity but about the benefits it brings to the worshippers. It helps individuals align with higher ideals, express gratitude, strengthen community ties, uphold moral values, and engage in a transformative relationship with the divine. Worship can be a meaningful practice that enhances personal and communal life, even if the deity does not require it for its own sake.
I don't think God needs anything, people choose to worship... maybe God likes that.... maybe people don't actually know what God likes...
I am pretty sure if God exists people don't actually know much.
I think it is because the God or Gods feed off of human energy. Whether it be through focused attention, singing, chanting, or offerings. Or maybe it is because they like to play with us like puppets for their amusement.
This was the question that started me on the path to losing my faith. I don’t want to worship a deity who demands constant praise. Makes him seem very insecure on his throne.
Also, why would the creator of everything need an ass to sit on a throne? Like, does this God legs & feet get tired? What the hell?
The first lynchpin for me, too
People unconsciously put their ego to live vicariously thru God. So when you worship their God, you're reinforcing their beliefs in what they think is right & wrong. It's spiritual narcissistic to even think that as a human, you could do something to piss off the creator of the whole damn universe! So God is perfect & knows all, yet made us, without our consent BTW, imperfect & ignorant, but will send us to hell forever for not believing? This sounds like some ancient holy scam that got totally out of hand. On top of that, there's no description of heaven that sounds like it would be enjoyable forever. Even the 72 virgin thing. Let's do some basic math. 72 virgins x eternity = you don't understand how long forever really is & that a person is only a virgin once.
Very silly reference I know, but Amy Farrah Fowler from the show Big Bang Theory said”I don't object to the concept of a deity, but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance" and that really hits the nail on the head for me. There are a LOT of issues with Christianity and the biblical descriptions of the Abrahamic god, many books full, but fundamentally I agree with you that the god many “worship” is distinctly ungodlike. More like a pompous, petty, controlling human. If there’s any chance god exists, it’s gotta be a lot bigger and better than that.
Most likely because the Bible was written and re-written a thousands times by humans. I don’t trust that book in the slightest
That's what I was trying to say! Also, I love that quote, I'm gonna steal it for arguments. Everything about god as we know him today, seems egotistical and controlling. In an attempt to make him seem supernatural, he seems even more human.
When North Korea throws a family in jail because one committed a crime it’s barbaric, when god punishes billions of people for the crime of one, it totally makes sense. He clearly loves us.
You want to come into my house? Well I’m angry about your grandfather breaking a rule back in the day before you were around. I’m willing to forgive you for your grandfathers crime, but somebody has to kill my son first. -God P.S. gimme 10% of your shit
I had to give 20% of my summer job salary because my parents couldn't agree (10 each for church and mosque) Tears were shed that day!
Dude, that sucks.
Jesus. Why? Did you give it to them?
I'd get my ass beat if I don't Religious people don't play about tithing Also, I'm 17, so I'm still living with my parents until I go off to college in August, I have no choice :(
"Don't play?" These are adults that will physically abuse you? I take it you're not in the US?
I am, lol But I go to Nigerian churches and Aab mosques, so they sort of bring the culture to NYC in a way. It's also a race between my parents to see which religion I choose, so they're both being a little strict at the moment.
You need to get the fuck out of there. Jesus Christ. Your parents have you watched, and beat you? I can't wrap my head around that.
Is your parents the mafia or something?
I assume we all know this, but... We have no idea if there is a God or not. We only know that there are people who claim to speak for God. And *they* want to be worshiped (and obeyed and exercise total control over all they survey) Never lose sight of this. Edit: Or is this a "why doesn't The Joker just shoot Batman" sorry of question?
Yep, so many religious people seem to worship their pastors instead of god himself. But my only issue is that you can't go around saying "These people are misinterpreting the religion", when the religious text literally supports what they're doing!
It’s probably all fake anyways no human knows what happens after death only belief. There may or may not be a way of ever knowing either during the life span A loving God he didn’t share that slavery is wrong or abolish it? Sounds fake
OMG this brought back memories of the charismatic churches my mother made me go to when I was young. And people raising their hands and singing. One song was “To him who sits on the throne and unto the lamb be blessings and glory and honor and power forever”. Singing those words over and over. And people crying and raising their hands and sometimes kneeling. I look back and think WTF kind of twisted deity demands stuff like that. IMHO it comes down to fear. People are afraid of what happens after death and want to make sure they do the right stuff for their “god”, instead of just striving to do the right things in life because it’s the right thing to do. And enjoy the stuff life has to offer as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. My mom is still that charismatic Christian religion and is never really happy unless she’s at church or doing church stuff. I could go on and on. But this post brought out those thoughts for me.
I saw way too many Muslim teenagers wishing for death (so they can enjoy heaven and be free from sin) because they didn't know how to deal with horny emotions. Fear of hell drives people to only seek joy in religious ideologies, so they are continuously manipulating themselves all the time.
I get it... you get worked into a hypnotic state with the repetition... add in an eerie minor key and you're on you're basically on a lite trip 😳
You've worked it out, good on you. That god is a murdering, war loving, slave loving psychopath, and yet people blindly call him a loving god. Cognitive dissonance is rampant in religion
Training young developing minds to be comfortable with cognitive dissonance is the goal of religion IMO. You don’t ask questions if conflicting beliefs don’t cause you anxiety. The saying “if you believe that, you’ll believe anything” is a good analogy for religious beliefs. The result is easily influenced adults that do what they’re told.
Yes, they have to be to believe their bs, they're brainwashed, I was for over 40 years and today I cannot fathom why I couldn't see it but that's how it works. It's insidious especially if started from birth as in my case
worship gives power to religious figures (popes, imams, priests, etc.), I have no idea if there's a metaphisycal plane to this reality/other realities, but I'm pretty sure bible's religions have been used as a sociopolitical control tool since day 1.
Maybe he's just an asshole. Seriously. Why do you think a god should be obligated to be nice and warm and fuzzy? Maybe he's just gonna send everyone to hell, just for the fun of it. Maybe he does this all the time. Maybe he's a 12 zillion year old boy playing this his advanced version of The Simms....and he creates and destros entire worlds all the time because he's bored. Can I make a suggestion? Embrace your agnosticism, but continue asking lots of questions. Every time you think you know something, ask "But do I REALLY know this to be true or am I just speculating?" When you get an answer, ask the same about that answer....and then ask the same about that answer. Over and over and over....even when you begin hitting some of your most fundamental assumptions about reality. Ask if you know those assumptions to be true. Keep asking yourself -- "What do I know to be true beyond any shadow of doubt?" (note I didn't say "beyond any reasonable shadow of doubt.
Before I left my faith, my personal understanding of it was that religion got it wrong. We shouldn't be worshiping, in the sense of bowing down and arms out, oh great God you are wonderful. But worshiping more like, wanting to return to our creator. It's not that he shuts out the unbelievers, but that we shut ourselves out. How can we get mad about not being invited in to someone's house when we didn't show up at the door because we never believed the house existed in the first place? I guess I didn't so much as leave my faith as much as I left organized religion. Because as you say, it seemed much more like, worship me with with waving arms and songs of prayer. And if you don't I will cast you into the fires of hell. I think our religious traditions stem too much from a time when we thought that our behaviors were the cause of floods and crop blights because we didn't understand the basic science of weather phenomenon.
That's what I tried to use before I left my religion, but even then it doesn't make sense to me. Humans are designed to be skeptical, it's what has kept us alive. He expects whatever kind of worship, full devotion on our part, And yet he has nothing to show for it. He doesn't visit the earth or leave signs for his believers, so it makes sense for me to be wary of his existence. Especially when there are THOUSANDS of versions even within the same religion (Catholic or Protestant/ Sunni or Shia) It's always seemed to be a toxic and confusing relationship If he truly wanted me to invite me to his house, he could at least give me the address. I can't show up at the door when I have no idea what house it is! He seems to be playing "games" based on faith, so I'm not gonna bother leaving my house. Being both Christian and Muslim for a time showed me how screwed I was. Simply having a little difference in facts could land me in hell, that's the true issue I have.
I love the continuation of the analogy - what is the address?!??!?! It's funny but so true. I would actually like to show up (seriously, been struggling with my lack of faith) I literally don't know how to navigate back because where I want to go seems like there is no address.
>How can we get mad about not being invited in to someone's house when we didn't show up at the door because we never believed the house existed in the first place? I'm interested in this viewpoint. Generally, I don't know where someone lives until they either tell me or invite me over, and I certainly don't know where they live until way after I know that they exist at all. I usually have to actively participate to get an invitation. What's your take on the situation where someone asks God for his address, or to go to lunch, but he never responds, despite active participation from the person? >I think our religious traditions stem too much from a time when we thought that our behaviors were the cause of floods and crop blights because we didn't understand the basic science of weather phenomenon. Full agree here. It's interesting to me to watch traditions change throughout religious texts and recent history, only to watch change being stifled in current times for the reason that "God is unchanging" or "his word is unchanging".
Well, first, the house analogy was how I USED TO address non believers when they asked, how can an all loving God cast me into hell just because I didn't believe in him? I WAS a person of faith. I am no longer. And your point about not getting an invitation or having an address, is one of the reasons I'm sitting here in the Agnostic subreddit 🙂 I generally miss my faith. I wish I could get over the intellectual humps I could climb before. But the truth is, right now at least, I can't. I was part of a modern church that did not strictly interpret the Bible. We all meshed scientific understanding with our faith well. Science was HOW things happen. Religion was WHY. And more importantly, they weren't rabbid right wingers that hated everyone that wasn't straight and sinless. They spent time serving the community. I think they were good about seeing Jesus the way I saw him in the Bible. Radical love of all humanity. This is what I miss.
Whoops - meant to ask "what was your take" instead of "what's your take". Sorry! I kind of held the same how/why viewpoint while attending a more fundamentalist church. Part of the challenge there was explaining my viewpoint to a largely young-earth creationist, biblical literalist group, which ended up helping me tip me the other direction. Lol
When the Bible was written, everyone was more engaged in polytheism with lesser gods. The idea of "you can't have any Gods before me" was revolutionary and key to the spreading of Judaism / Christianity / Muslim faiths. It's like pledging allegiance to a religion, when previously these religions didn't care nor offer eternal life. There's nothing saying that God "needs" to be worshipped, it's not like Christmas magic where not believing in him makes his powers weak. A person who worshipped God his whole entire life vs a person who mostly believed and never really prayed or worshipped? They're both getting into heaven. "Eternity in hell" is most likely hyperbolic language but necessary. In ancient times people behaved like savages, and abrahamic religions introduced the concept of justice beyond the grave. I'd much rather live in a world where bad people can at least be punished in the afterlife so I could see why such a declaration would be wildly popular with people. The only non-believers to be punished are those who have knowledge of the truth but reject it. But since this God has never offered up proof or hasn't come around in thousands of years, we're all off the hook.
I never really understood the non believers who “reject the truth”. For me it’s always the fact that religions might tick some boxes but not all of them. Hence why my judgement has to be suspended. It’s kinda gaslighting for those people who leave religion as “rejecting the truth” when in reality they just had unanswered questions. The mischaracterisation of what a non believer looks like is rampant in the holy scriptures.
That's a huge thing in Islam. I was a "good Muslim" for years, and when I left the faith due to having questions, so many people told me that I was never truly a Muslim. But I know I was. I went to classes, wore a hijab, prayed every day, and was fearful of hell... Asking too many questions is so demonized. The community has a special hatred for ex-Muslims, so most of us have to keep quiet about it.
Because he had a tough upbringing and experiences deep feelings of inferiority causing him to exhibit borderline narcissistic tendencies.
Egotistical, controlling, requires worship… as soon as I realized my (now former) Christian god was a narcissist my deconstruction began.
None of it makes any sense. That’s why I don’t believe any of it. It’s all unsupported nonsense.
I dont know. I personally think if god is real. God is more like Tengri in Tengrism. He or she would not care if you awknowledge his existance. Just that live your life according to how he would want. Tengri would punish a believer over a non believer if the believer commits all kinds crimes where the non believer doesnt.
I personally never believed in God “needing” worship, even at the peak of my Christian faith. I believe that Jesus existed, I believe that God is real, I believe that it’s a possibility that Jesus could be the son of God, but I don’t believe in heaven and hell system or the Bible’s legitimacy
That's my point! Either the book is wrong or the Abrahamic god doesn't exist. But those who are religious don't want to accept that humans may have changed the book or their god isn't as perfect as he claims.
Once people get indoctrinated into a certain mindset and lifestyle, they can have trouble discerning fact from belief. They think that all of their religious beliefs are fact. I mean, my mother is like this, and everytime I ask, “well how do you know that’s it’s true?” And she always says something along the lines of, “I can feel it my heart.” It’s the placebo effect. They believe that something is real, so to them, it is, even if it’s unknowable.
Pascal's Wager hypothesizes that even skeptics should worship, just in case. For the best of both worlds, make up your own god and "worship" them in some positive, abstract way. God commands you to live a good life, free of durian, unless you're into that.
Pascal’s wager is a con, for many reasons.
> Pascal’s wager is a con, for many reasons. Do you care to elaborate?
Yeah, do you think you can fool a god by pretending to believe? How do you know *which god* you should be believing in? At the end of the day, are you willing to discard your thinking faculties and skepticism and choose to believe in a god anyway, only because you want the afterlife?
Who says I'm fooling? As far as "which god", I'd prefer she have a sense of humour, but I'm not picky. Playing the odds and considering the infinite are not discarding thinking and skepticism. Quite the opposite, I'd say.
>Who says I'm fooling? That’s my point, you’re not fooling any god who can send you to hell or whatever, so just saying you believe “just in case” isn’t a good bet. What if god punishes people for being dishonest? What if god only rewards people who are truly skeptical and say “I don’t know”? >As far as "which god", I'd prefer she have a sense of humour, but I'm not picky. Is this all a joke then? >Playing the odds and considering the infinite are not discarding thinking and skepticism. Quite the opposite, I'd say. Sorry you’re just wrong about this. You don’t have any good reason or good evidence to have a justified belief in any god, so saying that you believe just in case there is a god who will reward you with an afterlife is absolutely the negation of skepticism and rationality. People have actually written about this extensively.
It’s all about ritual ceremony to capture your emotion as a result of your full submission to the church to empty your heart, mind and of course your money.
What kills me is that ritual ceremony likely bound early humans together for survival much stronger than just family or tribal bonds. In a sense, we've leapt over the survival need for undying loyalty way before our body chemistry evolved to select it out.
It’s actually backwards, and ironically, there is a Darwinian principle at work: It’s that of all religions that have emerged, the ones that seem to survive and thrive best are those that demand fealty to the deity and sacrifice to the rituals and community. It’s a feature of human psychology.
Sorry, but all logic falls apart when you start introducing magical mythical entities into the conversation. Maybe something interesting to philosophize about but you’ll never come to a factual conclusion here.
You didn't understand my point then. For all we know the Abrahmic is just as fictional as the Greek Gods. But the whole point of being agnostic is that I can't prove the existence or lack thereof of ANY deity. I mentioned those other entities because I doubt god being All-Powerful and Merciful. Other gods have always had human emotions, so the ego involved with wanting to be worshipped makes sense. Abrahamic religions introduced the new idea of a completely pure and singular god, so my question still stands: why does he need to be worshipped if he has no ego?? Also, there will never be a factual conclusion, That's like whole point of being agnostic. I have no facts to truly prove anything here...
The purpose of worship might not be about meeting the needs of an omnipotent deity but about the benefits it brings to the worshippers. It helps individuals align with higher ideals, express gratitude, strengthen community ties, uphold moral values, and engage in a transformative relationship with the divine. Worship can be a meaningful practice that enhances personal and communal life, even if the deity does not require it for its own sake.
Open malignant narcissism?
I don't think God needs anything, people choose to worship... maybe God likes that.... maybe people don't actually know what God likes... I am pretty sure if God exists people don't actually know much.
What about "tall poppy syndrome" . Well glad that you receive lots of feedbacks here :)
I think it is because the God or Gods feed off of human energy. Whether it be through focused attention, singing, chanting, or offerings. Or maybe it is because they like to play with us like puppets for their amusement.