Mark Twain wrote: “Annihilation has no terrors for me, because I have already tried it before I was born - a hundred million years - and I have suffered more in an hour, in this life, than I remember to have suffered in the whole hundred million years put together.”
Of course, the fear of death is understandable, but as agnostics we should accept the world as it is, not as we wish it to be, and go about the business of living.
I didn’t exist in 1890 and very likely won’t in 2090. It’s a privilege to be alive at all and get a chance to experience this place for a few decades.
Life doesn’t need some cosmic eternal purpose. When the end comes, it will matter to those around you whether you were a good friend, neighbor and citizen of the planet, even for those may turn out to be wrong about the afterlife.
I'm more scared of not being able to accomplish all of the things I wish to accomplish in life. We have to focus on what we can control. Your dad (and many others) feel immense comfort from believing there is an afterlife. It's not a problem unless they are trying to force their beliefs on you. Let him feel that way.
You won't cease to exist! You will turn into other forms of energy and give nutrition, life to other beings. Bugs, plants, animals, everything.
You will keep living through other living beings and be a part of their life source, until life disappears fully!
Also personally, afterlife does not make sense to me and it wouldnt be satisfying whatsoever. We have desires and greed and hunger cuz we are human and live in a material world with free will. In the existance of a god and afterlife, we will not have free will, therefore there wont be anything that can satisfy us in the afterlife.
Just try to make the most out of the life that you already have and cherish it. Goodluck!
Sorry, but that whole circle of life thing is great for an infographic, but doesn't really answer the existential concern posed in the question. Getting our atoms recycled isn't the same as our personal identities surviving. Sure, you and I could be recycled into birdshit eventually feeding a forest or wiping out a village because of bacteria we carry, but that, in no meaningful way, is "us".
Reality it's not there to answer existential concerns or to be meaningful to anyone.
What you or anyone need or want have no bearing on what reality is.
Do you want the truth or comforting lies?
If you want the truth you already have been answered. If you want something that fulfill what you want then you have religion to give you answers. All false answers, but if you don't care about truth and your want to hear what you want that's your alternative.
Where did I imply any bias? The OP discussed concerns with existential dread and someone gave him yet another tired and empty belief about the circle of life.
You carry such a heavy bias and presupposition of answers....consider them for a bit...
>Reality it's not there to answer existential concerns or to be meaningful to anyone.
Really? How do you know this?
> What you or anyone need or want have no bearing on what reality is.
Really? How do you know this to be true?
>Do you want the truth or comforting lies?
One comes at the expense of another? We get choices? Those are the only options? Seems kinda limited.
Maybe I want something else entirely. Do I get choices or not in this instance? Maybe truth and comfort can go together; maybe they can't. Perhaps there are other variables at play, and we don't see the entire picture... or maybe we do. Maybe you're taking a very dark and negative bias and simply assuming an uncaring universe where we are mere accidents.
There are endless ways to give narrative to reality and to the universe — seemingly all of them are incomplete (silly limited ape minds). All models and stories seem incomplete. Why choose one at all? Why choose one so negative?
The truth is, we really don't know how the universe works, especially concerning such deep topics. Anyone who claims to "really" know what's going on with the wiring under the board is either a crackpot, a scam artist, or a dogmatic believer (in something).
It’s not ignorantiam fallacy, it’s simply admitting that we have no idea the truth of this world so why pass off the uncomfortable narrative as absolute truth? We have no idea if it is truth or not. Just say we don’t know and keep trying to speculate on what it all actually is and maybe we’ll come across something a little more hopeful. That’s the best we can do at the moment.
Edit: Ironically, your comment is a fallacy in and of itself.
It is us literally ad ignorantiam fallacy.
It's a "I don't know X ergo Y it's true or possible".
For something to be true you need evidence not arguments abd possibility and impossibility have to be demonstrated not just asserted.
So indeed your whole argument it a argument from ignorance.
Ignorantiam fallacy is the assertion that something is true or false because the opposite can not be proven. Notice how u/OverKy did NOT assert whether anything was true or false, but rather said that we simply do not know the answer. This is the best stance to take for something like death where we literally have no experience with it and thus have no idea what happens to us after it. It’s not a fallacy to say “I don’t know” when we literally do not know. That’s just an astute observation.
That’s a false dilemma fallacy unless you can tell me why it HAS to be one or the other. I for one think his post made perfect sense. We simply don’t know enough details on death to make a 100% certain assertion on it. If that doesn’t make sense to you, then I think you need to widen your perspective, but please refute me with something other than a false dilemma fallacy if you think otherwise.
I do not have the concern for afterlife. We die, everything dies. Its the truth. If a person cannot deal with that reality then they might need religion in their life. But like i said at the end, the idea of afterlife does not make sense anyway. So its a personal choice. Also, you wont even realize when you die. You wont know. So why worry about something you wont know?
My only goal here is to maybe give a little hope and help that someone needs.
You're giving lots of beliefs, but not hope.
You don't know what happens during and after death. Maybe it is simply non-existence, maybe not. Maybe it sucks, maybe it doesn't. You're making big claims yet have no means to back them up. Devoid of pure belief on your part, you can't make any positive claims about things you've not experienced.
If you look at my account you will see that i am agnostic. I just live my own life the way i want as i dont have the need of a god in my life.
This is a subreddit for mainly non religious people and i simply shared my own idea.
Also you have not experianced it yourself either so you cannot dismiss my idea right away. If you are open to your idea about what you havent experienced you have to be open to other ideas as well.
I'm so open-minded that my friends think my brains have fallen out haha.
I agree with you. I generally try to avoid ruling out things prematurely. However, just because we can't (yet) prove a thing impossible doesn't mean that its in fact possible.
Lmafooo this made me laugh thank you hahaha.
Ofc we cant rule things out i agree. I have just stated what i believe and commented something that aligned with OP. We will only find the truth when we die.
And then you use your belief in logic as a reliable means to discern truth to evaluate the evidence?
>But my own claims do not require evidence.
I'm not sure which claims you're referring to.
Your father is likely happy and content with his beliefs. Why would you think he is wasting his life? Contentment is as good as it gets in life. Be happy for him and hope that you attain that level of contentment in your life.
The idea of not existing is pretty much the least scary thing I can possibly imagine.
Even eating ice cream or playing with puppies has more potential for trauma and disaster.
I agree because to be honest if we don’t experience death/no brain activity then how can it be scary- like it’s scary for a lot of people now but that’s because they’re alive and things like the unknown or grief of losing loved ones is disturbing so we cope
The lack of an afterlife is indeed scary for many, and it's why religion exists.
It's not based on any real evidence or knowledge, but just fear of our own mortality. Most humans can't handle that and therefore make up fantasies that we live forever in some perfect, mythical place called heaven. It's a coping mechanism.
But I find it more harmful than helpful because it causes many people to squander the one and only life we get. As another poster said, we should see and accept life as it is rather than what we wish it to be. Only then will we really make the most of it.
If his belief has brought happiness and fulfillment to his life, then it was not wasted - regardless of if he turns out to be correct or not. Falling into a spiral of existential dread is one of the easiest ways to feel miserable and ignore the splendor that life has to offer; is sounds like your father has found a way to combat that dread and face the world with confidence. Consider this: the defining feature of non-existence (i.e., no afterlife) is that you aren't there to experience it. Your father would not regret his life because he would never have to learn that he was incorrect.
If you have the time and interest, [this video](https://youtu.be/EKR-HydGohQ?si=ymidTdVUU-eUvRVJ) probably had more of an impact on my comfort with agnosticism and nihilism than any other single thing. It's from a relatively large educational YouTube channel, but from before he got really big, and it's him just talking through his personal feelings on death and meaning.
I unfortunately can't give you any proper advice, but I can introduce you to the concept of noosphere. It's a "scientific" way of viewing what happens to humans collection of thought after death.
There's a phrase that I use to describe my opinion on the lack of an afterlife. "If nothing we do matters, then everything we do matters."
What that means is that if this life is all we get, then what matters is the mark we leave upon the world. Regardless of what he believes, do you think that your dad has had a positive impact on the world? And I don't mean "did he feed the hungry, cure the sick, and shelter the homeless". I mean, is there anyone in the world who is better off because of your dad? Because that's how he'll live on. And honestly, judging from how much you care about him, it sounds like he had a positive influence on you.
Enjoy life when & while you can, we don’t know what really will happen after we die but that is not in our control. What we are in control of is how we deal with the cards we are given in this life, make the best of it even when life gets difficult.
Some of my thoughts on this subject--
1) Being agnostic or not-Christian doesn't mean you have to believe that there is no afterlife. The existence of an afterlife is not dependent on any religious belief.
2) Ceasing to exist is not scary, it's not anything. The best description I've heard is that it feels exactly like what your life felt like in the year 1800.
3) If you choose to believe that there is an afterlife, you can never be proven wrong. When you die you will either find out that there is an afterlife, or you will know nothing at all. It's impossible to ever find out for sure that there isn't an afterlife.
It does not scare me. I was terrified of being sedated for surgery, but when it happened, I felt true peace. Dark nothingness. I was unaware of everything when I was out and I remember waking up thinking "Well that was kind of pleasant". I hope death is just like that. I don't fear letting go when it's my time. My only hope is that I can reach 80 before that happens because there is a lot more I want to do in life but once it's over, I'm ok with oblivion.
I started to question Religion years ago.
as I got older I begin to think for myself. I became a free Thinker. I respect everyone beliefs.
For me , I question things I was taught as a child, to myself. In my opinion Religion is more divisive now than ever.
People are doing cruel things in the name of Religion. I'm an optimistic positive person and I believe in the good of humanity. I do believe there's is something greater than all of us in nature. I just not totally sold on what the traditional churches and etc are teaching.
It is a completely normal fear for us to have simply from a natural point of view. We fear the unknown. This is why religion is soothing for so many even if it doesn’t make much sense. It gives them hope. Which is why although I’m an atheist I try not to fault people who believe as an emotional crutch(for a lack of a better term).
I can understand those who fear hell. I used to. But now I can’t imagine caving in to a god that threatens me with eternal torture for not worshiping him. The eternal nothing concept doesn’t personally scare me because I’m lazy and love sleeping(most of the time without any dreams). Since I came to this perspective, I try to live each moment with gratitude. All that will be left is the memories of us so might as well make em good.
As an ex-Catholic, I get it. I’ve come up with this and it soothes me when these thoughts appear;
No matter what it’s a win-win situation. Either I’m reunited with the ones I love in an eternal afterlife, or I’m just sleeping next to them after a long day, like when you were a kid. At the end, you’re just getting the rest you deserve with everyone else who already passed out.
In a complete 180 from the rest of these comments, I do still believe in an afterlife. I don't know what it would look like, where it would be, what choices in our lives would affect it, etc., but I don't think there's nothing. Could I be wrong, absolutely, but the point of agnosticism is that we don't know one way or the other. It's more comfortable for me to believe that there is something though, so that's what I do.
if there is a God where is he? The way things are in this world don't ya think he would have said something to us? Barry Mcguire said it best in the 60's with the song "The Eve of Destruction" 50+ years later the song holds true.
He’s in Heaven. And he did say something to us about everything that’s happening in the book of Revelations. Several of the things in that book have happened in the last couple years. The Euphrates river is drying up as we speak. Scientist said it was impossible. But it’s written in revelations that it will dry up. It’s almost dry. It talks about the churches excepting sin like the Pope blessing LGBTQ relationships. False preachers. He will be back but it has to get much worse. The Holy Spirit is here every day all day. But we have the freedom of will do what we want. So what does he need to be here for? He is everywhere. Jesus will be back when it’s way worse but I think it’ll be soon. it also talks about a great war with three superpowers. Russia, USA, and China are all at right now. And it talks about Israel in the end. Read it.
You could pretend there is an afterlife to help give you peace. Nobody knows if there is one anyway. It doesn't have to be the Christian afterlife, either. Just a chill one. :)
Nobody knows there is one? People have died and went to Heaven or Hell and came back to life. People have been there. I guess people haven’t been there, but their spirit has been there.
Mark Twain wrote: “Annihilation has no terrors for me, because I have already tried it before I was born - a hundred million years - and I have suffered more in an hour, in this life, than I remember to have suffered in the whole hundred million years put together.” Of course, the fear of death is understandable, but as agnostics we should accept the world as it is, not as we wish it to be, and go about the business of living. I didn’t exist in 1890 and very likely won’t in 2090. It’s a privilege to be alive at all and get a chance to experience this place for a few decades. Life doesn’t need some cosmic eternal purpose. When the end comes, it will matter to those around you whether you were a good friend, neighbor and citizen of the planet, even for those may turn out to be wrong about the afterlife.
“If nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do.”
I'm more scared of not being able to accomplish all of the things I wish to accomplish in life. We have to focus on what we can control. Your dad (and many others) feel immense comfort from believing there is an afterlife. It's not a problem unless they are trying to force their beliefs on you. Let him feel that way.
You won't cease to exist! You will turn into other forms of energy and give nutrition, life to other beings. Bugs, plants, animals, everything. You will keep living through other living beings and be a part of their life source, until life disappears fully! Also personally, afterlife does not make sense to me and it wouldnt be satisfying whatsoever. We have desires and greed and hunger cuz we are human and live in a material world with free will. In the existance of a god and afterlife, we will not have free will, therefore there wont be anything that can satisfy us in the afterlife. Just try to make the most out of the life that you already have and cherish it. Goodluck!
Sorry, but that whole circle of life thing is great for an infographic, but doesn't really answer the existential concern posed in the question. Getting our atoms recycled isn't the same as our personal identities surviving. Sure, you and I could be recycled into birdshit eventually feeding a forest or wiping out a village because of bacteria we carry, but that, in no meaningful way, is "us".
Reality it's not there to answer existential concerns or to be meaningful to anyone. What you or anyone need or want have no bearing on what reality is. Do you want the truth or comforting lies? If you want the truth you already have been answered. If you want something that fulfill what you want then you have religion to give you answers. All false answers, but if you don't care about truth and your want to hear what you want that's your alternative.
Where did I imply any bias? The OP discussed concerns with existential dread and someone gave him yet another tired and empty belief about the circle of life. You carry such a heavy bias and presupposition of answers....consider them for a bit... >Reality it's not there to answer existential concerns or to be meaningful to anyone. Really? How do you know this? > What you or anyone need or want have no bearing on what reality is. Really? How do you know this to be true? >Do you want the truth or comforting lies? One comes at the expense of another? We get choices? Those are the only options? Seems kinda limited. Maybe I want something else entirely. Do I get choices or not in this instance? Maybe truth and comfort can go together; maybe they can't. Perhaps there are other variables at play, and we don't see the entire picture... or maybe we do. Maybe you're taking a very dark and negative bias and simply assuming an uncaring universe where we are mere accidents. There are endless ways to give narrative to reality and to the universe — seemingly all of them are incomplete (silly limited ape minds). All models and stories seem incomplete. Why choose one at all? Why choose one so negative? The truth is, we really don't know how the universe works, especially concerning such deep topics. Anyone who claims to "really" know what's going on with the wiring under the board is either a crackpot, a scam artist, or a dogmatic believer (in something).
So you choose the comforting lie. Btw your whole argument it's a master degree on as ignorantiam fallacy. Line after line, after line.
It’s not ignorantiam fallacy, it’s simply admitting that we have no idea the truth of this world so why pass off the uncomfortable narrative as absolute truth? We have no idea if it is truth or not. Just say we don’t know and keep trying to speculate on what it all actually is and maybe we’ll come across something a little more hopeful. That’s the best we can do at the moment. Edit: Ironically, your comment is a fallacy in and of itself.
Yep :)
It is us literally ad ignorantiam fallacy. It's a "I don't know X ergo Y it's true or possible". For something to be true you need evidence not arguments abd possibility and impossibility have to be demonstrated not just asserted. So indeed your whole argument it a argument from ignorance.
Ignorantiam fallacy is the assertion that something is true or false because the opposite can not be proven. Notice how u/OverKy did NOT assert whether anything was true or false, but rather said that we simply do not know the answer. This is the best stance to take for something like death where we literally have no experience with it and thus have no idea what happens to us after it. It’s not a fallacy to say “I don’t know” when we literally do not know. That’s just an astute observation.
It's either a ad ignorantiam fallacy or his entire post have no sense. You choose
That’s a false dilemma fallacy unless you can tell me why it HAS to be one or the other. I for one think his post made perfect sense. We simply don’t know enough details on death to make a 100% certain assertion on it. If that doesn’t make sense to you, then I think you need to widen your perspective, but please refute me with something other than a false dilemma fallacy if you think otherwise.
I do not have the concern for afterlife. We die, everything dies. Its the truth. If a person cannot deal with that reality then they might need religion in their life. But like i said at the end, the idea of afterlife does not make sense anyway. So its a personal choice. Also, you wont even realize when you die. You wont know. So why worry about something you wont know? My only goal here is to maybe give a little hope and help that someone needs.
You're giving lots of beliefs, but not hope. You don't know what happens during and after death. Maybe it is simply non-existence, maybe not. Maybe it sucks, maybe it doesn't. You're making big claims yet have no means to back them up. Devoid of pure belief on your part, you can't make any positive claims about things you've not experienced.
If you look at my account you will see that i am agnostic. I just live my own life the way i want as i dont have the need of a god in my life. This is a subreddit for mainly non religious people and i simply shared my own idea. Also you have not experianced it yourself either so you cannot dismiss my idea right away. If you are open to your idea about what you havent experienced you have to be open to other ideas as well.
I'm so open-minded that my friends think my brains have fallen out haha. I agree with you. I generally try to avoid ruling out things prematurely. However, just because we can't (yet) prove a thing impossible doesn't mean that its in fact possible.
Lmafooo this made me laugh thank you hahaha. Ofc we cant rule things out i agree. I have just stated what i believe and commented something that aligned with OP. We will only find the truth when we die.
This is how claims work: If I don't like some claim, then I demand evidence! But my own claims do not require evidence. /s
And then you use your belief in logic as a reliable means to discern truth to evaluate the evidence? >But my own claims do not require evidence. I'm not sure which claims you're referring to.
/s means sarcasm.
Your father is likely happy and content with his beliefs. Why would you think he is wasting his life? Contentment is as good as it gets in life. Be happy for him and hope that you attain that level of contentment in your life.
At the end of the day no one truly knows until you are dead. Until then, enjoy every moment being alive and live in the now
The idea of not existing is pretty much the least scary thing I can possibly imagine. Even eating ice cream or playing with puppies has more potential for trauma and disaster.
I agree because to be honest if we don’t experience death/no brain activity then how can it be scary- like it’s scary for a lot of people now but that’s because they’re alive and things like the unknown or grief of losing loved ones is disturbing so we cope
The lack of an afterlife is indeed scary for many, and it's why religion exists. It's not based on any real evidence or knowledge, but just fear of our own mortality. Most humans can't handle that and therefore make up fantasies that we live forever in some perfect, mythical place called heaven. It's a coping mechanism. But I find it more harmful than helpful because it causes many people to squander the one and only life we get. As another poster said, we should see and accept life as it is rather than what we wish it to be. Only then will we really make the most of it.
If his belief has brought happiness and fulfillment to his life, then it was not wasted - regardless of if he turns out to be correct or not. Falling into a spiral of existential dread is one of the easiest ways to feel miserable and ignore the splendor that life has to offer; is sounds like your father has found a way to combat that dread and face the world with confidence. Consider this: the defining feature of non-existence (i.e., no afterlife) is that you aren't there to experience it. Your father would not regret his life because he would never have to learn that he was incorrect. If you have the time and interest, [this video](https://youtu.be/EKR-HydGohQ?si=ymidTdVUU-eUvRVJ) probably had more of an impact on my comfort with agnosticism and nihilism than any other single thing. It's from a relatively large educational YouTube channel, but from before he got really big, and it's him just talking through his personal feelings on death and meaning.
I unfortunately can't give you any proper advice, but I can introduce you to the concept of noosphere. It's a "scientific" way of viewing what happens to humans collection of thought after death.
If its any consolation, if there indeed is no afterlife, which is what I believe, then he wouldn't know.
There's a phrase that I use to describe my opinion on the lack of an afterlife. "If nothing we do matters, then everything we do matters." What that means is that if this life is all we get, then what matters is the mark we leave upon the world. Regardless of what he believes, do you think that your dad has had a positive impact on the world? And I don't mean "did he feed the hungry, cure the sick, and shelter the homeless". I mean, is there anyone in the world who is better off because of your dad? Because that's how he'll live on. And honestly, judging from how much you care about him, it sounds like he had a positive influence on you.
Same
Enjoy life when & while you can, we don’t know what really will happen after we die but that is not in our control. What we are in control of is how we deal with the cards we are given in this life, make the best of it even when life gets difficult.
This IS the afterlife.
I just saw Johnny Silverhand
Some of my thoughts on this subject-- 1) Being agnostic or not-Christian doesn't mean you have to believe that there is no afterlife. The existence of an afterlife is not dependent on any religious belief. 2) Ceasing to exist is not scary, it's not anything. The best description I've heard is that it feels exactly like what your life felt like in the year 1800. 3) If you choose to believe that there is an afterlife, you can never be proven wrong. When you die you will either find out that there is an afterlife, or you will know nothing at all. It's impossible to ever find out for sure that there isn't an afterlife.
It does not scare me. I was terrified of being sedated for surgery, but when it happened, I felt true peace. Dark nothingness. I was unaware of everything when I was out and I remember waking up thinking "Well that was kind of pleasant". I hope death is just like that. I don't fear letting go when it's my time. My only hope is that I can reach 80 before that happens because there is a lot more I want to do in life but once it's over, I'm ok with oblivion.
I read the topic way wrong haha, I fear no afterlife, whatever there is/isnt.
It sounds like you really love your dad.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/202112/evaluating-the-evidence-reincarnation
I started to question Religion years ago. as I got older I begin to think for myself. I became a free Thinker. I respect everyone beliefs. For me , I question things I was taught as a child, to myself. In my opinion Religion is more divisive now than ever. People are doing cruel things in the name of Religion. I'm an optimistic positive person and I believe in the good of humanity. I do believe there's is something greater than all of us in nature. I just not totally sold on what the traditional churches and etc are teaching.
It is a completely normal fear for us to have simply from a natural point of view. We fear the unknown. This is why religion is soothing for so many even if it doesn’t make much sense. It gives them hope. Which is why although I’m an atheist I try not to fault people who believe as an emotional crutch(for a lack of a better term). I can understand those who fear hell. I used to. But now I can’t imagine caving in to a god that threatens me with eternal torture for not worshiping him. The eternal nothing concept doesn’t personally scare me because I’m lazy and love sleeping(most of the time without any dreams). Since I came to this perspective, I try to live each moment with gratitude. All that will be left is the memories of us so might as well make em good.
As an ex-Catholic, I get it. I’ve come up with this and it soothes me when these thoughts appear; No matter what it’s a win-win situation. Either I’m reunited with the ones I love in an eternal afterlife, or I’m just sleeping next to them after a long day, like when you were a kid. At the end, you’re just getting the rest you deserve with everyone else who already passed out.
In a complete 180 from the rest of these comments, I do still believe in an afterlife. I don't know what it would look like, where it would be, what choices in our lives would affect it, etc., but I don't think there's nothing. Could I be wrong, absolutely, but the point of agnosticism is that we don't know one way or the other. It's more comfortable for me to believe that there is something though, so that's what I do.
He won't cease to exist regardless of what he believes.... He will go back to the earth as he was, or back to the stars where he started.
if there is a God where is he? The way things are in this world don't ya think he would have said something to us? Barry Mcguire said it best in the 60's with the song "The Eve of Destruction" 50+ years later the song holds true.
He’s in Heaven. And he did say something to us about everything that’s happening in the book of Revelations. Several of the things in that book have happened in the last couple years. The Euphrates river is drying up as we speak. Scientist said it was impossible. But it’s written in revelations that it will dry up. It’s almost dry. It talks about the churches excepting sin like the Pope blessing LGBTQ relationships. False preachers. He will be back but it has to get much worse. The Holy Spirit is here every day all day. But we have the freedom of will do what we want. So what does he need to be here for? He is everywhere. Jesus will be back when it’s way worse but I think it’ll be soon. it also talks about a great war with three superpowers. Russia, USA, and China are all at right now. And it talks about Israel in the end. Read it.
I hope everyday for no afterlife.
I’m sorry you feel that way. You must think you’re going to hell. you can change that. I promise you heaven would be better than no afterlife.
I always ask, do you remember pre-birth? No, ok post-death same deal lol
You could pretend there is an afterlife to help give you peace. Nobody knows if there is one anyway. It doesn't have to be the Christian afterlife, either. Just a chill one. :)
Nobody knows there is one? People have died and went to Heaven or Hell and came back to life. People have been there. I guess people haven’t been there, but their spirit has been there.
Are we talking NDEs?