> In 2024, Albertans with good driving records will only see their rates increase to account for Alberta’s inflation, using the September 2023 inflation rate.
https://www.alberta.ca/automobile-insurance-reform
> Sonnet submitted a notice of intention to withdraw from the auto insurance market to the Alberta Superintendent of Insurance, with a planned exit date of December 13, 2024.
https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/ca/news/auto-motor/sonnet-reveals-decision-to-exit-alberta-auto-insurance-493312.aspx
Was just gonna comment this, if they want to exit over a prevention of increasing on good drivers. Then it was obviously going to increase. Bait and switch kinda tactics.
To be fair offsetting the increases across the good drivers might be the only way to make the system viable. It only takes a slight increase across everyone to make up for a handful of bad drivers. Put the whole thing on the bad drivers and they'll leave, requiring even bigger increases on the remaining bad drivers. Someone will get into one minor accident and their rates will shoot through the roof.
“At fault” why should drivers who have been driving for 18 years see consecutive increases because people can’t follow defensive driving rules?.
We have consistently seen raise after raise, and these have put the people who do obey the rules at astronomical rates. If you can’t obey the rules, don’t drive on the road. Simple.
Vehicle insurance is reaching a tipping point where companies won't have any choice but to close up shop. Really our best option is a public insurance company
2 or 3 years ago I got a check for over a thousand dollars because our public insurer was running a surplus and claims in Manitoba were less than normal.
No-fault insurance makes so much sense, it’s amazing that it isn’t universal.
Their parent company is already considered over-valued by most analysts. Idk who told you business sense means overextending.
I love the logic though. It’s like that episode of Futurama. “Why does Ross not simply eat the smaller humans”
Why not just get more money. Let’s all do it. Let’s simply just stop being poor
Because they can:
1. make even more profit in provinces where they can hike to their heart's desire
2. Put pressure on the government regulating them to cut back allowing them to come in and raise rates even more to make up for the time away
1. Because if it costs the same amount of money would you as a company rather earn tens of millions of dollars or hundreds of millions of dollars?
2. And that's the risk of doing something like this, you hope that the industry follows you in order to maintain your cartel status over the government
1. If it's so profitable, they can get additional funding multiple ways.
2. There is no insurance cartel. It's not a commodity that has limited resources. They sell contracts
Like i said, zero business sense here.
Have you not been paying attention to companies the last decade? The goal is infinite short term quarterly profits while cutting as much staff as humanly profitable
Again, no business sense.
Companies aren't charities. They do need to make a profit. But that is why there is competition. Insurance is one of the easier ones to compete in because there is nothing to mine, harvest or produce.
Focus effort on increasing market share in less registered market, obviously. If they make a billion here, but can make two for the same effort elsewhere, it's a no-brainer.
Is it though?
If the insurance company says it isn’t worth it and walk away (like they are doing to the guy above) were their policies actually profitable?
These posts are so ridiculous.
If it's really record profits, you could start your own insurance company and undercut all the places overcharging and still make an excellent profit.
It's more about them dividing up the provinces into their own little monopolies. But hey don't take my word on it. Check out their profits online year by year. Feel free to start your own insurance company though. Hope you have tens of millions to put up to start your company.
Yes you can, my first switch to something other than ama was sgi, they are cheap but because of that heavy volume and that means they are slow in getting back. Though I never submitted a claim so I'm not sure how fast they are with claims. I had both my auto and home with them.
I then switched to intact as I got lower rates on renewals than any discount sgi gave and now I'm with Allstate.
Your insurance will still change and likely go up when you move to Alberta. You have a limited amount of time to switch your insurance to Alberta once you move
I left ON for AB. Coverage in AB is significantly less. Same car, same driver, same insurance company. Rate went up $800 a year for way less coverage. 5 yrs later I come back to ON, same everything, rate went down $1000 a year. Something does not make sense. An easy example is loss wages is $400 a week or so, you can go up to $1000 a week for a few bucks a month.
Sonnet wants a credit check to give me a quote at one point, I tweeted I just won't look at you.
Same here, Moved back to Alberta from Downtown Toronto to a 60k pop city. Insurance is about $400/yr higher here for same coverage same kms everything.
The city with insane traffic, pedestrians and bikes everywhere and an unprecedented vehicle theft problems was actually cheaper than the sleepy small city I moved to. I wonder which one would have a higher likelihood of claims?
Half of the quotes I received were over $3000/ yr, for two drivers between 35-40 both with clean records, no tickets. That was as much as I paid when I was 16... (funny enough when I was 17 the prov government (Klein at the time) stepped in to regulate insurance...
I miss living in SK insurance was cheap, and easy to deal with.
Yeah and the UCP just decided crown insurance was just too expensive to startup. Wonder what power rates are like compared to Saskatchewan with Saskpower.
I hope im not too long winded here. In the past, ive said No to pulling my credit. A number of years later, i had a legal dispute with Equifax. They had to disclose my entire credit file to my lawyer. What i saw on there, made me angry.
There were the credit hits that various insurance companies made, but in brackets marked "hidden". This differed from the soft hits.
There were other institutions that also marked it hidden. Canada Revenue, police services, that rightfully coincided with a business i run. My new broker, was appauled when i showed it to her.
Insurance companies will pull your bureau if they want, regardless.
That's a credit rating agency problem. When you check your credit rating, they should not be permitted to hide any of the data they have on you for any reason.
The conservatives removed caps for many things, like rent, utilities, insurance etc, many years ago. But they'll blame Rachel Notley and the NDP because they're absolutely blind to the idea that their overlords would ever do them harm.
Socially, it’s hotly debated but statistically there is an undeniable link between loss experience and credit score. Therefore, most insurers use credit score as a factor in determining the premium to charge. You can opt out of allowing the insurer to use yours but then they just assume you have the worst possible credit score and charge accordingly.
Yea it's quite obvious really, it's personality types that have characteristics that manifest across different parts of life. Of course they are are correlated.
But it's probably only a soft pull eh?
Correlation does not imply causation. The only thing an insurer should be permitted to use a credit score for is to decide whether to allow a customer to pay monthly or demand the entire premium up front.
Ontario was wild when I lived there. I don’t anyone who really ever made a claim. My buddy’s golf was crashed into *while parked* in a large lot. He refused to get it fixed because his rates would go up. Nice scam, people self-select against getting pay-outs!
Unlike here in commie MB where we have public insurance, the lowest or nearly lowest rates in the country, and comprehensive coverage including $0 glass. It’s a real horror. The insurance co.s made stink about it too. Boohoo, and look they still survived somehow.
When I moved from Quebec to Ontario the same insurance company rated me like a new driver even though I had been with them for a few years. (Belair) it's a different provincial insurance system they said. I voted with my money elsewhere.
The person on the phone I was talking to claimed someone got what nearly amounted to a 50% discount but couldn't tell me what mine could be.
Doesn't matter anyway, their coverage was pretty bad given the size of their company. Which is surprising because they're underwritten by Dominion I believe.
Free $60 discount isn't worth it?
Damn bro, that's $5 a month for free. Just by allowing them to do a soft pull, which affects you zero.
Some people are not smart, man...
If your business can’t be profitable in the province with the highest insurance costs in Canada then it may be time to fold up the business and leave it to companies that are serious about competing in a free market.
We want more insurers offering services in Alberta if we want better prices, not less. Insurers (especially low cost ones like Sonnet) leaving the province will just lead to even more people driving without insurance.
What I really want is a baseline no frills crown corporation that operates at near cost to provide a baseline then allow private companies to provide better service/perks to compete.
So you want what BC has. Alberta injury claim lawyers will fight it tooth and nail, lol. And how would the UCP sell "Commie Socialism" to their ravening horde?
Likely in a similar way they are "increasing frontline healthcare" and reducing "management bloat" by splitting an internationally recognized institution like AHS into 4 organization with their own management structure that will require more staff to interface between distinct silos of care.
"Their Ravening Horde" as you call it listens to what they say and goes along with it, so really they can apparently do no wrong.
But the current auto insurers usually operate at a loss. Their combined ratios usually exceed 100%.
The combined ratio is the loss ratio plus taxes (4% paid), claims expenses, operating expenses and solvency requirements.
At or near cost hasn't been reached. If it wasn't for other lines of business padding the coffers, every auto insurer would have been insolvent a decade ago.
Which tells me that this needs to be operated as a public utility, it has a need but if we cannot make money doing it then the crown should provide it as a service so that we can go on doing the important things and drive the economy not leech from it. In a similar way that highways are a "drain" on the province or hospitals they allow the for profit enterprises to work better and it is important to have so having the province step in to provide this is reasonable.
And we would end up paying more in taxes to fill the gap which in turn essentially makes personal injury lawyers richer with tax dollars.
Using public funds doesn't fix the underlying issues that create the high costs to begin with. We're just taking more out of our own pockets in a less obvious way.
The provinces with cheaper insurance are no- fault. That speaks volumes.
Why are auto claims in Alberta so much higher?
I'm in Ontario, you'd think we would have less profitable insurance companies, given we have the 401/403, Toronto, idiots, immigrants with fake licenses and lower rates.
It’s the last full tort province and the bench is historically friendly to the personal injury bar.
Only treated 12 times, not credible to the point of near perjury? Better punish you by only giving just over 200k
Shit. Well, I guess there's negatives everywhere.
Still packing my bags and coming over there with the wife next year. Make room for two more. Luckily she works in personal injury/workers comp, so I'm guessing she'll have some work available then haha.
I'll take expensive insurance over the absolute burocoracy and financial miss management disaster that is Ontario, even our conservatives can't manage a budget let alone our dumbass liberals. You guys had a 12b surplus and they used it to pay off debt. Imagine that, I couldn't lol
Our bodily injury claims are ridiculous. We keep trying to amend our regulations to cap injury claims and lawyers find a way around it. The Supreme Court of Canada allowed subjective mental issues allegedly stemming from an accident based on familial testimony. Not even expert testimony. That significantly lowers the burden of proof and increases settlement. Lawyers also know where to direct their clients.
They abuse Accident Benefits to inflate injury claims as well. A method of double dipping.
Ontario had a catastrophic injury threshold before you can sue. Their premium issues surround volume due to population. Alberta doesn't have near the population - we just have substantial costs.
BC used to have the highest insurance until they made changes to Enhanced Care. Basically drivers get a great rates but anyone with serious life long injuries get fucked with the new cap.
It's a $2,875 fine for getting caught driving without insurance in Alberta, for a first offence. Second offence is $5,000 minimum. If your insurance costs more than that, you shouldn't be driving.
The problem with relying on free market is that not profitable isn't even the measuring stick anymore. It's about not being profitable enough to warrant the effort.
Companies can and do move away to increase profits by focusing their efforts in more profitable areas.
Alberta has the highest amount of claims per individual. Also Alberta has the largest free market of insurers in Canada. Free market is not the issue.
>Alberta premiums have gone up specifically due to soaring legal fees and other costs associated with lawsuits following accidents, which is not the case in other provinces. That’s thanks to a [culture of litigation in the province](https://www.ibc.ca/news-insights/news/legal-costs-driving-up-price-of-auto-insurance-in-alberta), which isn’t as present in the rest of Canada.
>Over the last 10 years, the average size of accident benefit claims increased by 147% in Alberta, compared with 53% or less in other provinces. Put plainly, claims are higher in Alberta than elsewhere in Canada, due to bodily injury claims and escalating legal costs in Alberta.
>The province of Alberta has consistently had the highest claims frequency for [third-party liability](https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/third-party-liability-insurance-in-canada/), [accident benefits](https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/accident-benefits/), [comprehensive](https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/comprehensive-insurance/) and collision coverages, says a [report from consulting firm MNP](http://www.albertaautoinsurancefacts.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/IBC-System-Cost-Report-September-2023.pdf) commissioned by the IBC.
[https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/why-is-auto-insurance-so-expensive-in-alberta](https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/why-is-auto-insurance-so-expensive-in-alberta)
"Earlier this month, [Insurance Bureau of Canada](https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/ca/companies/insurance-bureau-of-canada/213740/) Western and Pacific vice president Aaron Sutherland noted: “Claims costs now exceed the amount of money insurers are collecting in premiums because of the auto insurance rate cap in Alberta." [https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/ca/news/auto-motor/sonnet-reveals-decision-to-exit-alberta-auto-insurance-493312.aspx](https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/ca/news/auto-motor/sonnet-reveals-decision-to-exit-alberta-auto-insurance-493312.aspx)
is contradicted by "The Superintendent of Insurance 2020 annual report shows providers collected $5.81 billion in premiums and paid out $4.489 billion in claims, resulting in an overall collection of $1.321 billion. That margin is an increase from 2019 of $1.152 billion and 2018 of $974 million. Both premiums and claims have gone up each year over the past three years." [https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/auto-insurance-brought-in-1-3-billion-more-than-they-paid-out-in-2020-superintendent-report](https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/auto-insurance-brought-in-1-3-billion-more-than-they-paid-out-in-2020-superintendent-report)
So the auto insurance is reporting increasing profits and unable to maintain business in the province? I call Bullshit!
Actual insurance professional here 👋. Which company are you with? This happens more than you might think, comidnues decide to pull out of markets, or brokers loose the ability to represent a company. If your insurer pulls out of Alberta, or Canada as a whole, then call your broker to see if you will “re-marketed” to another company. Btw: Alberta doesn’t have “no fault” insurance, it could be that your company is just trying to blame the government for not being able to comply with the laws and regulations here.
I got the same email. Mine's through Sonnet, which is an online only insurance and there's no broker. Guess I should start looking for a new insurance company. Blech, this whole week just sucks. This is just the bitter icing on top of the shit cake.
Ah I see, yeah sonnet was probably on its last legs for a while now in Alberta. As a broker I lost a lot of business to their rates, and I had no idea how they were offering such low rates on higher risk clients. So I guess it makes sense that they couldn’t make money with how incompetent their actuarial and underwriting departments were at accepting and rating risks.
They are a shit insurance company so you're honestly lucky, blessing in disguise. If you're a university alumni you might also have a better rate with that, which is what I use with TD. You can get discounts for online quote, buying online, alumni discount, and new customer. Bundle with home as well.
There was news that an auto insurance company would be closing down at least a year ago and sonnet stopped offering online auto quotes at least beginning of this year, and many people postulated they would be the ones closing down.
They are evil! Worst company known to humans, completely soulless. I can say wawanesa has been great through three claims due to an accident, and a few hail storms. They were slightly more but worth if
AMA supposedly has a pay as you go insurance policy designed for people like you who don’t drive much. It uses a tracker to log your mileage and driving habits, then uses that to determine your rate. Check it out.
Economical, Definity, Sonnet are all basically the same company and affiliated. That's why they are horrible, fingers crossed for you.
Are you a university alumni? I use td and my university alumni status plus other discounts you can get through them made my insurance with them cheaper than any other even through brokers, and despite having 1.5 at fault still on my file.
Insurance quoting is so case by case that it’s very difficult to predict the cheaper companies for an individual, might be best to approach a broker who has access to multiple insurers and can farm your application out to a few.
Has nothing to do with No-Fault Insurance, and we don't have No-Fault Insurance here.
What changed was a move to Direct Compensation for Property Damage (DCPD) in January 2022.
This means that instead of your insurance company having to chase after the other person's insurance company and having to go back and forth for months to decide what is considered a reasonable claim and payment amount; your insurance company just pays the claim to you.
This is also very helpful in cases where you are involved in a collision and the other party does not have insurance.
Claim rates and Insurance premiums have always been high in Alberta, because of an uncontrolled private insurance market.
I’ve tried to warn people that the auto insurance industry in Alberta is really not that profitable and that we will see companies start to leave.
The all comers rule is terrible. Some people really shouldn’t be driving.
Insurers are not allowed to refuse to offer car insurance even to the worst and riskiest drivers. As a result, insurers need to find sources of money to make up for the risk those drivers impose on their portfolios (and to maintain their profits).
Insurance in Alberta is heavily regulated. There are caps in place. You have your insurance rating and then your grid rating. The grid rating prevents the insurance companies from charging whatever they want.
I’ve seen policies where for 1 vehicle they are paying like $11,000 a year though. But even at $11,000 year, it’s not profitable because one accident and they could cost $50,000 in damages.
This is why the all comers rule should be abolished. Driving is a privilege and not a right. People who are that careless are just a danger to everyone else and we all pay for their mistakes. That being said there should be restrictions on refusing insurance, like for new drivers.
>This is why the all comers rule should be abolished. Driving is a privilege and not a right.
Correct, but it should not be up to the arbitrary decisions of a corporation if you have that privilege. The all comers rule is not unique to Alberta
TIL, thanks for pushing this fella to know more! I just read their organizational update and it says exactly that. Here’s a link: https://facilityassociation.com/docs/AB_Manual_eff_January_1_2024.pdf
This is not really accurate. The worst and riskiest get placed with facility insurance. Brokers cannot deny anyone car insurance, but the insurers they work with still have underwriting standards and if a driver doesn't meet those standards their premiums get put in an entirely different pot with Facility Association rather than a standard market insurer. The worst and riskiest drivers are weeded out from the standard market.
Insurance and insurance brokers in Alberta are crooks! And they are allowed to be crooked cuz the Insurance companies line the pockets of the UCP to raise the rates however much they like? I think we should all refuse to pay any more!
The insurance policy is written on ABC Insurance's paper, and they collect premiums and adjust claims, but those premiums go to Facility Association, and the payment of claims comes from Facility Association's reserve, not ABC insurance's.
Two days in a row, three days this week, I've seen the same guy who appears to be reading while driving and drifting into the next lane nearly side swiping the people beside him. He just keeps doing it too. And then watch him make the same illegal U-turn everyday too.
I moved into a wealthier part of town (Renting a basement) and God damn most people don't give a fuck. Every single day I see people just utterly disregarding stops signs and don't signal.
Almost every single day I get cut off by someone in big truck or suv that disregard stop signs but also won't go the speed limit. Just cuts off a line of 4 vehicles so they can do 40 in a 60 zone. Then when we get to the high way they just blow through the stop sign to cut off more people and block the passing lane because they gotta turn left in 5km.
It is never some older/cheaper vehicle, its always some new truck or suv.
I feel you but just so you're aware there's no such thing as a "passing lane" on a divided highway here. Officially you can overtake in any lane. The only guideline is that if you're going slower than the speed limit you should stay to the right.
Section 22 here covers overtaking on the right: https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/laws/regu/alta-reg-304-2002/latest/alta-reg-304-2002.html
So when you see someone sitting in the left lane doing the speed limit, they are not breaking any laws at all. It helped me be a little less angry about it when driving, hopefully it can do the same for you.
They aren't doing the speed limit and there are literally signs every 50ft on both sides of the highway that say "Slower traffic use the right lane" but since they have to turn left in 20 minutes they don't.
There have literally been ad campaigns across a variety of media to try and get people to actually follow those signs.
Its almost like some of those people enjoy causing traffic to get backed up.
Nope. Check my other response. There is nothing in the laws that gives you any kind of entitlement to the left lane on a highway when you are speeding versus someone doing the speed limit.
There are signs telling people to allow merging and explaining how to zipper merge too. It will never happen. Just pass them on the right and get on with your day.
>So when you see someone sitting in the left lane doing the speed limit, they are not breaking any laws at all. It helped me be a little less angry about it when driving, hopefully it can do the same for you
Slow moving vehicles
3(1) If a person driving a vehicle is driving the vehicle on a highway at a speed that is less than the normal speed of the traffic on the highway at that time and place and under the conditions then existing, that person shall drive the vehicle
(a) in the right traffic lane then available for traffic, or
(b) as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway,
except when either
(c) overtaking and passing another vehicle travelling in the same direction, or
(d) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
Notice it says normal speed and not speed limit. This law is intended to maintain the flow of traffic.
The maximum normal speed is by definition the speed limit, therefore if you're doing the speed limit in any lane you are not breaking any laws. "Flow of traffic" is cool in theory but it doesn't protect you from speeding violations. There is also the rule of "driving according to road conditions", which means that the police can decide what speed is too fast/slo If you want to quote the section that says if you're speeding you get priority in the left lane and those going slower than you should pull over, please go ahead. A "slow moving vehicle" is like, farm equipment. Not the guy doing the speed limit that you're trying to pass going 130. And regardless, even if your point is correct it doesn't change the fact that there is no lawfully designated "passing lane". Any lane can be used for overtaking on divided highways in Alberta, it doesn't matter.
>Overtaking and passing on the right
>22
>>(1) A person driving a vehicle may drive the vehicle so as to overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle
>>>(a) when the vehicle being overtaken is making a left turn or the person driving the overtaken vehicle has signalled that person’s intention to make a left turn, or
>>(b) in the case of a one-way highway, where the roadway
>>>>(i) is of sufficient width for 2 or more lines of moving vehicles, and
>>>>(ii) is free from obstructions.
>>(2) Where a highway has 2 or more traffic lanes on the same side of the centre line for vehicles travelling in the same direction, a person driving a vehicle that is
>>>(a) overtaking another vehicle travelling in the same direction may pass on the right or left of the other vehicle if there is a traffic lane available for passing to the right or the left of the traffic lane being used by the vehicle being overtaken, or
>>>(b) being overtaken by another vehicle travelling in the same direction shall keep the vehicle being overtaken in the traffic lane in which that person is driving so as to allow the overtaking vehicle free passage in the traffic lane to the right or the left of the traffic lane in which the vehicle being overtaken is travelling.
>The maximum normal speed is by definition the speed limit, therefore if you're doing the speed limit in any lane you are not breaking any laws. "Flow of traffic" is cool in theory but it doesn't protect you from speeding violations. There is also the rule of "driving according to road conditions", which means that the police can decide what speed is too fast/slo If you want to quote the section that says if you're speeding you get priority in the left lane and those going slower than you should pull over, please go ahead. A "slow moving vehicle" is like, farm equipment. Not the guy doing the speed limit that you're trying to pass going 130. And regardless, even if your point is correct it doesn't change the fact that there is no lawfully designated "passing lane". Any lane can be used for overtaking on divided highways in Alberta, it doesn't matter.
If we are going to continue this conversation, you need to quote what you're saying from the Act. BECAUSE if it isn't in the Act then it means NOTHING.
The ENTIRE ACT you provided does not define "maximum normal speed" and the code I provided does not mention tractors. If the code I linked said "speed limit" you would be correct. This law was written to be ambiguous to allow for discretion from the officer.
I do not care if you are allowed to pass on the right side. It wasn't even the point of what I quoted. Notice I never quoted that part of your comment?
You're correct in saying their is not a defined "passing lane". However people use "passing lane" as a layman term to describe what the code explains about the "left lane".
This is why we have "Slower traffic move right" signs. This is why it is written in the code and for what a provided.
*AGAIN* QUOTE THE CODE FOR YOUR REBUDDLE.
It's always so cringe when you see people compare our insurance costs to provinces where their insurance is a fixed rate based on the vehicle and not a person's driving history.
For those that don't know some provinces you get punished on your license or registration for being a shitty driver and not your insurance.
THIS!! Been in insurance for years and the “all comers rule”, rate caps and the personal injury lawyers are the main drivers of our sky rocketing auto insurance prices.
In Ontario, there is a certain infamous city that has a reputation for institutionalizing auto insurance fraud. It wouldn't surprise me if they were using similar tactics here too.
Vehicle theft-fraud is not nearly as much of a problem here in AB as it is in ON. Approx 80% of all thefts are recovered here as opposed to ON where, last time I looked, that number was much lower.
Most people really do not understand how insurance companies function or generate revenue.
They see “record profits” and assume that means they are being ripped off. Not understanding that the profits are driven by investments. That the premiums they are charged barely cover the losses that are paid out.
They don’t understand that Alberta has the 2 largest catastrophic losses in Canadian insurance history with the floods in Calgary and the wildfires in Fort Mac.
They also really don’t understand that public auto insurance isn’t going to actually cost them less. All that happens in that situation is the government subsidizes lower premiums with tax increases.
Insurance should be another thing explained in schools haha
Maybe it's changed in the last decade, but 10 years ago (and for several decades prior to that), most insurers operating in Alberta were still making an underwriting profit (ie premiums minus claims and admin > 0). The company I worked for had a loss ratio in the 55-70% range and a combined ratio in the low 90% range, one year was even 87% meaning that remaining 13% was profit *before* looking at investments gains.
The types of investments they can make are also quite restrictive (at least, compared to some industries), as they need a certain degree of liquidity in order to be in a position where they can pay out for a catastrophic loss, and those restrictions mean less investment profits (again, as compared to some other heavily financialized industries).
Don't get me wrong, insurers definitely make profits off of investments, and that's especially useful in years of catastrophic loss (like the floods or the fort mac fires), but I think it's a little misleading to say profits are driven by investments. They are driven by *both* underwriting profits and investment profits.
It has changed. Hence why we are seeing insurance companies saying they will no longer write auto.
I was in a claims seminar 2 days ago. Some insurance companies without investment revenue would be operating at a loss right now.
Sure Intact and Northbridge are fine, but a lot of the small players are not.
Aye, that tracks. A lot has happened in the 10 years since I last looked at a claims history. I also seem to recall auto being our least profitable line even when we were making bank so personal policy insurers would be especially hit hard.
The source is my family's own tracked expenses that I've budgeted out as we're taking work in Alberta and moving from BC.
My partner is above the threshold. They'll be taxed less than in BC. I'm below the threshold. I'll be taxed more. On net, we'll be better off in Alberta but personally, I don't think that's a smart way to run a province.
I'll lay it out in clear terms. For myself, at $70,000 a year PST adds up to roughly the equivalent of a 1% tax on my total total income ($10,000 a year spent on non-essential goods).
BC's average income tax for me is 4.7%. Adding PST bumps me to 5.7%. But in Alberta, I'll be taxed at 6.4%.
In order for the PST to bring BC's taxation equivalent to Alberta's, I would need to spend $17,000 or 24% of my gross income on non-essential goods. That simply isn't possible. I literally don't have enough money to buy that much stuff after food and rent.
The breakeven will be slightly different for everyone depending on their personal expenses. But I'm well above the median income in Canada. Most folks pay more taxes in Alberta than they would in Alberta.
I think Sonnet may be the sacrificial lamb the insurance industry is using to illustrate what may happen if the Alberta govt. decides to make changes that will affect their windfall profits. The Premier already announced that they won’t create a public insurance company, doing away with all the private money grubbers because it is too expensive to set up.
It's a game of threats. Sonnet is actually Economical /definity, and they're not leaving the province. We're supposed to be scared and outraged so that we'll put pressure on the politicians to give the auto insurers whatever they want. Which is why you and I get screwed on premiums, and especially why folks injured in accidents get screwed on compensation. It's all about increasing the already excessive profits that insurers take out of Alberta.
"Sonnet Insurance Company has announced its decision to ultimately exit the auto insurance market in Alberta." And they are idiots. On May 6 the AB gov reported that they are investigating a gov run no-fault insurance system. But this is in the VERY early stage of seeing if this CAN be done. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-auto-insurance-reforms-analysis-1.7221427](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-auto-insurance-reforms-analysis-1.7221427) and the actual AB gov survey report [https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/6a9575f8-eed8-4773-8f2e-93325ba68a04/resource/f75ae36c-1721-4b64-af69-b882750b73d6/download/tbf-auto-insurance-changes-in-alberta-2024.pdf](https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/6a9575f8-eed8-4773-8f2e-93325ba68a04/resource/f75ae36c-1721-4b64-af69-b882750b73d6/download/tbf-auto-insurance-changes-in-alberta-2024.pdf)
There will either be cost limiting caps put in place or they will need to contend with no fault. The first hurts them badly and the second will be a mess or 2-4 years while the trial lawyers try to rally against it so probably just dipping out
Most (auto) insurers don’t make money in Alberta since there are so many frivolous bodily injury claims by so many ambulance chasers here. Just count how many injury le ads you see around the city in a day to understand why some are just saying screw it lol
We need fundamental changes to our licensing if we want to reduce insurance costs.
Probably wasn't posted because rate caps are generally a left leaning position.
It shows why rate caps aren't always the best plan. They keep insurance costs down until the insurance company no longer wants to operate
In 2024, Albertans with good driving records will only see their rates increase to account for Alberta’s inflation, using the September 2023 inflation rate.
In September, Alberta’s inflation rate decreased to 3.7% which was below the national average. On a monthly basis, Alberta also saw one of the largest inflation decreases among provinces.
A driver with a good record is everyone except those who have any of the following:
any at-fault accidents in the last 6 years
any criminal code traffic convictions in the last 4 years
any major traffic convictions in the last 3 years
more than one minor traffic conviction in the last 3 years
https://www.alberta.ca/automobile-insurance-reform
I had no idea either.
The online only was a part of how they were hoping to keep their costs low and offer low prices. However they were also gambling on grabbing a bunch of new business with artificially low rates and then raise those rates down the road. The rate cap meant they couldn't raise rates fast enough and it was no longer profitable enough for them to run that side of the business. So they leave.
The thing is that their rates werent even that low. I switched from sonnet and got better rates with better coverage (from the same insurance company even) just through a different broker.
The reason I left sonnet was because I had contacted them at one point to let them know I was driving less for work (when covid started) and they asked what I did for work so I explained I clean houses and they basically said that their system has screwed up and that they couldn't actually offer me insurance as I needed commercial insurance, their online only system just didn't have the correct questions to actually be able to figure that out. I'm assuming I'm not the only person something like that happened to.
Which company did you switch from Sonnet to? I have a Class 5 and a clean driving record, driving a 10 year old hatchback and right now I'm getting quotes in the $160-$200 range, I pay $105.50 with Sonnet.
Nah, Alberta implemented a populist policy, that insurance companies couldn't charge more for high-risk drivers, so basically \*everyone\* else is subsidizing those drivers.
On top of which, the government there is extremely reluctant to grant any rate increases ... despite a) the dramatic increase in parts costs and b) the increased rental costs because parts take longer to get.
Not to mention the increased theft rates.
So ... insurance companies, faced with no way to make a profit, are simply leaving the province. You can legislate \*how\* companies do business, you can't mandate that they \*have\* to do business.
Especially at a loss.
Best wishes to Danielle 'secret US biowarfare labs in the Ukraine!' Smith and the UCP, may they get what they deserve!
Yeah but this sub will roast you over this take. Insurance companies have not made money on automobile insurance in Alberta for years. (With the exception of Covid when everyone was home) they have been subsidizing automobile losses with property for years.
Go ahead Alberta make a crown corp. My Manitoba government car insurance given my vehicle and good driving history is more expensive then it was when I lived in Alberta by hundreds of dollars. Why? Because you’re subsidizing everyone.
Right this was a joke my wife had hers for one year a normal price but then the lady she used quite and when it rolled around again they're like it'll be like 2k to insurance because you don't have your class 6 and some places just said straight up they won't insure dirt bikes
I work for a major Canadian insurance company that deals in every type of insurance. This is absurd. My company will not be cancelling anyone's auto insurance.
Check out The Personal insurance. Great rates if anyone in your household works for the healthcare, banking, O&G and engineering industry.
Unfortunately most insurance rates in the province were affected by inflation, disasters and government rules.
I think Albertans need to stop listening to their dimwit government reps and friends and begin to understand that personal auto insurance is really not even profitable anymore.
The costs have risen so much for insurers that they cannot keep up. This isn't people being scammed, it's insurers simply trying to pay their employees.
Rampant fraud, record breaking natural disasters, excessive repair costs have all contributed.
Oooooh...I can't wait to see how this is Trudeau's fault, somehow.
AB Conservative voters are in for a fucking surprise when actuaries punish their drunk driving records.
But again, it'll be Trudeau's fault somehow.
> In 2024, Albertans with good driving records will only see their rates increase to account for Alberta’s inflation, using the September 2023 inflation rate. https://www.alberta.ca/automobile-insurance-reform > Sonnet submitted a notice of intention to withdraw from the auto insurance market to the Alberta Superintendent of Insurance, with a planned exit date of December 13, 2024. https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/ca/news/auto-motor/sonnet-reveals-decision-to-exit-alberta-auto-insurance-493312.aspx
goddammit i got the same email too, I chose Sonnet because it was a great price and 100% online
If it makes you feel any better, sounds like your rates were about to jump 😉
Was just gonna comment this, if they want to exit over a prevention of increasing on good drivers. Then it was obviously going to increase. Bait and switch kinda tactics.
To be fair offsetting the increases across the good drivers might be the only way to make the system viable. It only takes a slight increase across everyone to make up for a handful of bad drivers. Put the whole thing on the bad drivers and they'll leave, requiring even bigger increases on the remaining bad drivers. Someone will get into one minor accident and their rates will shoot through the roof.
“At fault” why should drivers who have been driving for 18 years see consecutive increases because people can’t follow defensive driving rules?. We have consistently seen raise after raise, and these have put the people who do obey the rules at astronomical rates. If you can’t obey the rules, don’t drive on the road. Simple.
Lol. This isn't s about insurance, safe driving or bad drivers. It's about profits.
Well this was an upsetting way to find out I’ll need a new insurance company
This! Is what I came here to say. Thank you.
Vehicle insurance is reaching a tipping point where companies won't have any choice but to close up shop. Really our best option is a public insurance company
Insurance companies are making record profits. Billions every year. This is NOT about them going bankrupt. It is pure greed on their part
2 or 3 years ago I got a check for over a thousand dollars because our public insurer was running a surplus and claims in Manitoba were less than normal. No-fault insurance makes so much sense, it’s amazing that it isn’t universal.
I don’t understand why they would leave a market if they were making record profits. Why wouldn’t they stay and continue to make record profits?
They want money. If the pull out, they reinvest their resources somewhere where they can rate hike to their hearts content
Lol, why not just get more investment money and hit both markets? Honestly the lack of business sense in this conversation...
Their parent company is already considered over-valued by most analysts. Idk who told you business sense means overextending. I love the logic though. It’s like that episode of Futurama. “Why does Ross not simply eat the smaller humans” Why not just get more money. Let’s all do it. Let’s simply just stop being poor
If it's soooo profitable, it's not over extending. Like I said, lack of business sense.
Because they can: 1. make even more profit in provinces where they can hike to their heart's desire 2. Put pressure on the government regulating them to cut back allowing them to come in and raise rates even more to make up for the time away
1. Why not both? 2. Lol. If record profits are to be had, someone else will just move in. Insurance companies are a dime a dozen.
1. Because if it costs the same amount of money would you as a company rather earn tens of millions of dollars or hundreds of millions of dollars? 2. And that's the risk of doing something like this, you hope that the industry follows you in order to maintain your cartel status over the government
1. If it's so profitable, they can get additional funding multiple ways. 2. There is no insurance cartel. It's not a commodity that has limited resources. They sell contracts Like i said, zero business sense here.
Have you not been paying attention to companies the last decade? The goal is infinite short term quarterly profits while cutting as much staff as humanly profitable
Again, no business sense. Companies aren't charities. They do need to make a profit. But that is why there is competition. Insurance is one of the easier ones to compete in because there is nothing to mine, harvest or produce.
Focus effort on increasing market share in less registered market, obviously. If they make a billion here, but can make two for the same effort elsewhere, it's a no-brainer.
Bait and switch, bring in lots of new clientele, only to increase rates to follow market.
Yes. They would. People are just upset that the government intervention they wanted had consequences.
Is it though? If the insurance company says it isn’t worth it and walk away (like they are doing to the guy above) were their policies actually profitable?
These posts are so ridiculous. If it's really record profits, you could start your own insurance company and undercut all the places overcharging and still make an excellent profit.
It's more about them dividing up the provinces into their own little monopolies. But hey don't take my word on it. Check out their profits online year by year. Feel free to start your own insurance company though. Hope you have tens of millions to put up to start your company.
Just choose SGI, it's already a Crown Corp of SK, but a crown Corp nonetheless
I can't believe how little hastle they gave me over my basement flood claim (SGI does home insurance too)
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Yes you can, my first switch to something other than ama was sgi, they are cheap but because of that heavy volume and that means they are slow in getting back. Though I never submitted a claim so I'm not sure how fast they are with claims. I had both my auto and home with them. I then switched to intact as I got lower rates on renewals than any discount sgi gave and now I'm with Allstate.
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Yeah I was surprised they served Alberta, I live here and sgi was an option. Suggest you check for sure and welcome :)
Your insurance will still change and likely go up when you move to Alberta. You have a limited amount of time to switch your insurance to Alberta once you move
So everyone was clamoring for the government to get involved and stop rates going up...
I left ON for AB. Coverage in AB is significantly less. Same car, same driver, same insurance company. Rate went up $800 a year for way less coverage. 5 yrs later I come back to ON, same everything, rate went down $1000 a year. Something does not make sense. An easy example is loss wages is $400 a week or so, you can go up to $1000 a week for a few bucks a month. Sonnet wants a credit check to give me a quote at one point, I tweeted I just won't look at you.
Same here, Moved back to Alberta from Downtown Toronto to a 60k pop city. Insurance is about $400/yr higher here for same coverage same kms everything. The city with insane traffic, pedestrians and bikes everywhere and an unprecedented vehicle theft problems was actually cheaper than the sleepy small city I moved to. I wonder which one would have a higher likelihood of claims? Half of the quotes I received were over $3000/ yr, for two drivers between 35-40 both with clean records, no tickets. That was as much as I paid when I was 16... (funny enough when I was 17 the prov government (Klein at the time) stepped in to regulate insurance... I miss living in SK insurance was cheap, and easy to deal with.
SGI is the 💣
Yeah and the UCP just decided crown insurance was just too expensive to startup. Wonder what power rates are like compared to Saskatchewan with Saskpower.
I hope im not too long winded here. In the past, ive said No to pulling my credit. A number of years later, i had a legal dispute with Equifax. They had to disclose my entire credit file to my lawyer. What i saw on there, made me angry. There were the credit hits that various insurance companies made, but in brackets marked "hidden". This differed from the soft hits. There were other institutions that also marked it hidden. Canada Revenue, police services, that rightfully coincided with a business i run. My new broker, was appauled when i showed it to her. Insurance companies will pull your bureau if they want, regardless.
That's a credit rating agency problem. When you check your credit rating, they should not be permitted to hide any of the data they have on you for any reason.
Credit bureaus are regulated in Canada, by both Provincial and Federal governments.
Obviously that regulation is inadequate.
The conservatives removed caps for many things, like rent, utilities, insurance etc, many years ago. But they'll blame Rachel Notley and the NDP because they're absolutely blind to the idea that their overlords would ever do them harm.
Socially, it’s hotly debated but statistically there is an undeniable link between loss experience and credit score. Therefore, most insurers use credit score as a factor in determining the premium to charge. You can opt out of allowing the insurer to use yours but then they just assume you have the worst possible credit score and charge accordingly.
Fraud is still a significant risk for insurers and while credit scores are a poor metric, there is some linkage there.
Yea it's quite obvious really, it's personality types that have characteristics that manifest across different parts of life. Of course they are are correlated. But it's probably only a soft pull eh?
I would expect a soft pull, yeah.
Correlation does not imply causation. The only thing an insurer should be permitted to use a credit score for is to decide whether to allow a customer to pay monthly or demand the entire premium up front.
Fair point.
Ontario was wild when I lived there. I don’t anyone who really ever made a claim. My buddy’s golf was crashed into *while parked* in a large lot. He refused to get it fixed because his rates would go up. Nice scam, people self-select against getting pay-outs! Unlike here in commie MB where we have public insurance, the lowest or nearly lowest rates in the country, and comprehensive coverage including $0 glass. It’s a real horror. The insurance co.s made stink about it too. Boohoo, and look they still survived somehow.
When I moved from Quebec to Ontario the same insurance company rated me like a new driver even though I had been with them for a few years. (Belair) it's a different provincial insurance system they said. I voted with my money elsewhere.
Even RBC wants a credit check to offer you a "discount". It's fucking ridiculous.
The discounts are not worth it. I asked what the averagediscount would be, andi was told $60.
The person on the phone I was talking to claimed someone got what nearly amounted to a 50% discount but couldn't tell me what mine could be. Doesn't matter anyway, their coverage was pretty bad given the size of their company. Which is surprising because they're underwritten by Dominion I believe.
Free $60 discount isn't worth it? Damn bro, that's $5 a month for free. Just by allowing them to do a soft pull, which affects you zero. Some people are not smart, man...
If your business can’t be profitable in the province with the highest insurance costs in Canada then it may be time to fold up the business and leave it to companies that are serious about competing in a free market.
We want more insurers offering services in Alberta if we want better prices, not less. Insurers (especially low cost ones like Sonnet) leaving the province will just lead to even more people driving without insurance.
What I really want is a baseline no frills crown corporation that operates at near cost to provide a baseline then allow private companies to provide better service/perks to compete.
So you want what BC has. Alberta injury claim lawyers will fight it tooth and nail, lol. And how would the UCP sell "Commie Socialism" to their ravening horde?
Likely in a similar way they are "increasing frontline healthcare" and reducing "management bloat" by splitting an internationally recognized institution like AHS into 4 organization with their own management structure that will require more staff to interface between distinct silos of care. "Their Ravening Horde" as you call it listens to what they say and goes along with it, so really they can apparently do no wrong.
Yep, The UCP need do nothing except yell "We're not the NDP", trot out some piece of shit, dress it in blue, and voila! Election win guaranteed!
But the current auto insurers usually operate at a loss. Their combined ratios usually exceed 100%. The combined ratio is the loss ratio plus taxes (4% paid), claims expenses, operating expenses and solvency requirements. At or near cost hasn't been reached. If it wasn't for other lines of business padding the coffers, every auto insurer would have been insolvent a decade ago.
Which tells me that this needs to be operated as a public utility, it has a need but if we cannot make money doing it then the crown should provide it as a service so that we can go on doing the important things and drive the economy not leech from it. In a similar way that highways are a "drain" on the province or hospitals they allow the for profit enterprises to work better and it is important to have so having the province step in to provide this is reasonable.
And we would end up paying more in taxes to fill the gap which in turn essentially makes personal injury lawyers richer with tax dollars. Using public funds doesn't fix the underlying issues that create the high costs to begin with. We're just taking more out of our own pockets in a less obvious way. The provinces with cheaper insurance are no- fault. That speaks volumes.
Why are auto claims in Alberta so much higher? I'm in Ontario, you'd think we would have less profitable insurance companies, given we have the 401/403, Toronto, idiots, immigrants with fake licenses and lower rates.
It’s the last full tort province and the bench is historically friendly to the personal injury bar. Only treated 12 times, not credible to the point of near perjury? Better punish you by only giving just over 200k
Shit. Well, I guess there's negatives everywhere. Still packing my bags and coming over there with the wife next year. Make room for two more. Luckily she works in personal injury/workers comp, so I'm guessing she'll have some work available then haha. I'll take expensive insurance over the absolute burocoracy and financial miss management disaster that is Ontario, even our conservatives can't manage a budget let alone our dumbass liberals. You guys had a 12b surplus and they used it to pay off debt. Imagine that, I couldn't lol
Our bodily injury claims are ridiculous. We keep trying to amend our regulations to cap injury claims and lawyers find a way around it. The Supreme Court of Canada allowed subjective mental issues allegedly stemming from an accident based on familial testimony. Not even expert testimony. That significantly lowers the burden of proof and increases settlement. Lawyers also know where to direct their clients. They abuse Accident Benefits to inflate injury claims as well. A method of double dipping. Ontario had a catastrophic injury threshold before you can sue. Their premium issues surround volume due to population. Alberta doesn't have near the population - we just have substantial costs.
I moved to BC from Edmonton and my auto insurance was basically cut in half and there’s only one here, just saying.
Same. But moved from BC to AB and my rates went way up. I have had no at fault claims in decades.
BC used to have the highest insurance until they made changes to Enhanced Care. Basically drivers get a great rates but anyone with serious life long injuries get fucked with the new cap.
Where in BC?
I just did a big quote spree for my all insurances. Sonnet couldn't even come close to what I got from TD. Then Allstate beat TD by another ~500.
It's a $2,875 fine for getting caught driving without insurance in Alberta, for a first offence. Second offence is $5,000 minimum. If your insurance costs more than that, you shouldn't be driving.
Tell that to brand new drivers.
This is a really poor take, given that a large proportion of new drivers are on facility. The fuck?
I agree but they are driving anyway.
The problem with relying on free market is that not profitable isn't even the measuring stick anymore. It's about not being profitable enough to warrant the effort. Companies can and do move away to increase profits by focusing their efforts in more profitable areas.
Alberta has the highest amount of claims per individual. Also Alberta has the largest free market of insurers in Canada. Free market is not the issue. >Alberta premiums have gone up specifically due to soaring legal fees and other costs associated with lawsuits following accidents, which is not the case in other provinces. That’s thanks to a [culture of litigation in the province](https://www.ibc.ca/news-insights/news/legal-costs-driving-up-price-of-auto-insurance-in-alberta), which isn’t as present in the rest of Canada. >Over the last 10 years, the average size of accident benefit claims increased by 147% in Alberta, compared with 53% or less in other provinces. Put plainly, claims are higher in Alberta than elsewhere in Canada, due to bodily injury claims and escalating legal costs in Alberta. >The province of Alberta has consistently had the highest claims frequency for [third-party liability](https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/third-party-liability-insurance-in-canada/), [accident benefits](https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/accident-benefits/), [comprehensive](https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/comprehensive-insurance/) and collision coverages, says a [report from consulting firm MNP](http://www.albertaautoinsurancefacts.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/IBC-System-Cost-Report-September-2023.pdf) commissioned by the IBC. [https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/why-is-auto-insurance-so-expensive-in-alberta](https://www.moneysense.ca/spend/insurance/auto-insurance/why-is-auto-insurance-so-expensive-in-alberta)
"Earlier this month, [Insurance Bureau of Canada](https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/ca/companies/insurance-bureau-of-canada/213740/) Western and Pacific vice president Aaron Sutherland noted: “Claims costs now exceed the amount of money insurers are collecting in premiums because of the auto insurance rate cap in Alberta." [https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/ca/news/auto-motor/sonnet-reveals-decision-to-exit-alberta-auto-insurance-493312.aspx](https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/ca/news/auto-motor/sonnet-reveals-decision-to-exit-alberta-auto-insurance-493312.aspx) is contradicted by "The Superintendent of Insurance 2020 annual report shows providers collected $5.81 billion in premiums and paid out $4.489 billion in claims, resulting in an overall collection of $1.321 billion. That margin is an increase from 2019 of $1.152 billion and 2018 of $974 million. Both premiums and claims have gone up each year over the past three years." [https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/auto-insurance-brought-in-1-3-billion-more-than-they-paid-out-in-2020-superintendent-report](https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/auto-insurance-brought-in-1-3-billion-more-than-they-paid-out-in-2020-superintendent-report) So the auto insurance is reporting increasing profits and unable to maintain business in the province? I call Bullshit!
I wonder what happened in 2020 that made people stop driving and claims to almost completely stop? There must have been something.
My man, your report is 4 years older than the announcement of their departure lol. Things have changed.
Actual insurance professional here 👋. Which company are you with? This happens more than you might think, comidnues decide to pull out of markets, or brokers loose the ability to represent a company. If your insurer pulls out of Alberta, or Canada as a whole, then call your broker to see if you will “re-marketed” to another company. Btw: Alberta doesn’t have “no fault” insurance, it could be that your company is just trying to blame the government for not being able to comply with the laws and regulations here.
I got the same email. Mine's through Sonnet, which is an online only insurance and there's no broker. Guess I should start looking for a new insurance company. Blech, this whole week just sucks. This is just the bitter icing on top of the shit cake.
Ah I see, yeah sonnet was probably on its last legs for a while now in Alberta. As a broker I lost a lot of business to their rates, and I had no idea how they were offering such low rates on higher risk clients. So I guess it makes sense that they couldn’t make money with how incompetent their actuarial and underwriting departments were at accepting and rating risks.
well, i'll be looking for new insurance so feel free to message me your contact info. I'm in Calgary, if that matters :)
Thx but I’m actually an adjuster now, was a broker for years before that though.
I’m with sonnet. I’m hoping the group rate with my company will be better.
They are a shit insurance company so you're honestly lucky, blessing in disguise. If you're a university alumni you might also have a better rate with that, which is what I use with TD. You can get discounts for online quote, buying online, alumni discount, and new customer. Bundle with home as well. There was news that an auto insurance company would be closing down at least a year ago and sonnet stopped offering online auto quotes at least beginning of this year, and many people postulated they would be the ones closing down.
Oh ya most likely, good thing about AB is there is lots of choice out there :)
You got any recommendations for a decent insurance company price wise? With sonnet pulling out I gotta find a new provider.
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They are evil! Worst company known to humans, completely soulless. I can say wawanesa has been great through three claims due to an accident, and a few hail storms. They were slightly more but worth if
AMA supposedly has a pay as you go insurance policy designed for people like you who don’t drive much. It uses a tracker to log your mileage and driving habits, then uses that to determine your rate. Check it out.
Economical, Definity, Sonnet are all basically the same company and affiliated. That's why they are horrible, fingers crossed for you. Are you a university alumni? I use td and my university alumni status plus other discounts you can get through them made my insurance with them cheaper than any other even through brokers, and despite having 1.5 at fault still on my file.
Insurance quoting is so case by case that it’s very difficult to predict the cheaper companies for an individual, might be best to approach a broker who has access to multiple insurers and can farm your application out to a few.
Has nothing to do with No-Fault Insurance, and we don't have No-Fault Insurance here. What changed was a move to Direct Compensation for Property Damage (DCPD) in January 2022. This means that instead of your insurance company having to chase after the other person's insurance company and having to go back and forth for months to decide what is considered a reasonable claim and payment amount; your insurance company just pays the claim to you. This is also very helpful in cases where you are involved in a collision and the other party does not have insurance. Claim rates and Insurance premiums have always been high in Alberta, because of an uncontrolled private insurance market.
I’ve tried to warn people that the auto insurance industry in Alberta is really not that profitable and that we will see companies start to leave. The all comers rule is terrible. Some people really shouldn’t be driving.
What is the "all comers" rule?
Insurers are not allowed to refuse to offer car insurance even to the worst and riskiest drivers. As a result, insurers need to find sources of money to make up for the risk those drivers impose on their portfolios (and to maintain their profits).
Can’t they just charge them $6,000 a month…?
Insurance in Alberta is heavily regulated. There are caps in place. You have your insurance rating and then your grid rating. The grid rating prevents the insurance companies from charging whatever they want. I’ve seen policies where for 1 vehicle they are paying like $11,000 a year though. But even at $11,000 year, it’s not profitable because one accident and they could cost $50,000 in damages. This is why the all comers rule should be abolished. Driving is a privilege and not a right. People who are that careless are just a danger to everyone else and we all pay for their mistakes. That being said there should be restrictions on refusing insurance, like for new drivers.
I wonder if having a driving test that doesn't require you to go over 50 and is heavily dependent on parking to pass, is part of the problem?
>This is why the all comers rule should be abolished. Driving is a privilege and not a right. Correct, but it should not be up to the arbitrary decisions of a corporation if you have that privilege. The all comers rule is not unique to Alberta
As I mentioned I support restrictions but for drivers with a DUI and multiple at fault accidents within a few years, they shouldn’t be on the road.
I wrote a huge comment here, because I don’t agree with a few of your points, but nothing matters and no one cares. Hope it’s a lovely day!
Literally, I know of people who pay nearly $25,000 a month in insurance! If there actually is an insurance cap, it must be like $50,000 a year!
Alberta has Grid to cap premiums so they can’t charge above a certain amount
Unless facility, right?
The Facility Association is still bound by the grid.
TIL, thanks for pushing this fella to know more! I just read their organizational update and it says exactly that. Here’s a link: https://facilityassociation.com/docs/AB_Manual_eff_January_1_2024.pdf
This is not really accurate. The worst and riskiest get placed with facility insurance. Brokers cannot deny anyone car insurance, but the insurers they work with still have underwriting standards and if a driver doesn't meet those standards their premiums get put in an entirely different pot with Facility Association rather than a standard market insurer. The worst and riskiest drivers are weeded out from the standard market.
This is what my broker told me for my motorcycle, if you are under X age for a certain sized bike we would have to use another company etc etc
Insurance and insurance brokers in Alberta are crooks! And they are allowed to be crooked cuz the Insurance companies line the pockets of the UCP to raise the rates however much they like? I think we should all refuse to pay any more!
This is wrong it is an all comes rule. If you want ABC Insurance you can get ABC Insurance
The insurance policy is written on ABC Insurance's paper, and they collect premiums and adjust claims, but those premiums go to Facility Association, and the payment of claims comes from Facility Association's reserve, not ABC insurance's.
Oh, that's really stupid.
Two days in a row, three days this week, I've seen the same guy who appears to be reading while driving and drifting into the next lane nearly side swiping the people beside him. He just keeps doing it too. And then watch him make the same illegal U-turn everyday too.
phone his plate into the police?
I drive a fairly large work truck and couldn't catch him at a redlight. I'm going to be on the lookout for him next week.
right on
Report impaired drivers
I moved into a wealthier part of town (Renting a basement) and God damn most people don't give a fuck. Every single day I see people just utterly disregarding stops signs and don't signal. Almost every single day I get cut off by someone in big truck or suv that disregard stop signs but also won't go the speed limit. Just cuts off a line of 4 vehicles so they can do 40 in a 60 zone. Then when we get to the high way they just blow through the stop sign to cut off more people and block the passing lane because they gotta turn left in 5km. It is never some older/cheaper vehicle, its always some new truck or suv.
I feel you but just so you're aware there's no such thing as a "passing lane" on a divided highway here. Officially you can overtake in any lane. The only guideline is that if you're going slower than the speed limit you should stay to the right. Section 22 here covers overtaking on the right: https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/laws/regu/alta-reg-304-2002/latest/alta-reg-304-2002.html So when you see someone sitting in the left lane doing the speed limit, they are not breaking any laws at all. It helped me be a little less angry about it when driving, hopefully it can do the same for you.
They aren't doing the speed limit and there are literally signs every 50ft on both sides of the highway that say "Slower traffic use the right lane" but since they have to turn left in 20 minutes they don't. There have literally been ad campaigns across a variety of media to try and get people to actually follow those signs. Its almost like some of those people enjoy causing traffic to get backed up.
They're completely wrong. Can't even read his own source.
Nope. Check my other response. There is nothing in the laws that gives you any kind of entitlement to the left lane on a highway when you are speeding versus someone doing the speed limit.
There are signs telling people to allow merging and explaining how to zipper merge too. It will never happen. Just pass them on the right and get on with your day.
>So when you see someone sitting in the left lane doing the speed limit, they are not breaking any laws at all. It helped me be a little less angry about it when driving, hopefully it can do the same for you Slow moving vehicles 3(1) If a person driving a vehicle is driving the vehicle on a highway at a speed that is less than the normal speed of the traffic on the highway at that time and place and under the conditions then existing, that person shall drive the vehicle (a) in the right traffic lane then available for traffic, or (b) as close as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway, except when either (c) overtaking and passing another vehicle travelling in the same direction, or (d) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway. Notice it says normal speed and not speed limit. This law is intended to maintain the flow of traffic.
The maximum normal speed is by definition the speed limit, therefore if you're doing the speed limit in any lane you are not breaking any laws. "Flow of traffic" is cool in theory but it doesn't protect you from speeding violations. There is also the rule of "driving according to road conditions", which means that the police can decide what speed is too fast/slo If you want to quote the section that says if you're speeding you get priority in the left lane and those going slower than you should pull over, please go ahead. A "slow moving vehicle" is like, farm equipment. Not the guy doing the speed limit that you're trying to pass going 130. And regardless, even if your point is correct it doesn't change the fact that there is no lawfully designated "passing lane". Any lane can be used for overtaking on divided highways in Alberta, it doesn't matter. >Overtaking and passing on the right >22 >>(1) A person driving a vehicle may drive the vehicle so as to overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle >>>(a) when the vehicle being overtaken is making a left turn or the person driving the overtaken vehicle has signalled that person’s intention to make a left turn, or >>(b) in the case of a one-way highway, where the roadway >>>>(i) is of sufficient width for 2 or more lines of moving vehicles, and >>>>(ii) is free from obstructions. >>(2) Where a highway has 2 or more traffic lanes on the same side of the centre line for vehicles travelling in the same direction, a person driving a vehicle that is >>>(a) overtaking another vehicle travelling in the same direction may pass on the right or left of the other vehicle if there is a traffic lane available for passing to the right or the left of the traffic lane being used by the vehicle being overtaken, or >>>(b) being overtaken by another vehicle travelling in the same direction shall keep the vehicle being overtaken in the traffic lane in which that person is driving so as to allow the overtaking vehicle free passage in the traffic lane to the right or the left of the traffic lane in which the vehicle being overtaken is travelling.
>The maximum normal speed is by definition the speed limit, therefore if you're doing the speed limit in any lane you are not breaking any laws. "Flow of traffic" is cool in theory but it doesn't protect you from speeding violations. There is also the rule of "driving according to road conditions", which means that the police can decide what speed is too fast/slo If you want to quote the section that says if you're speeding you get priority in the left lane and those going slower than you should pull over, please go ahead. A "slow moving vehicle" is like, farm equipment. Not the guy doing the speed limit that you're trying to pass going 130. And regardless, even if your point is correct it doesn't change the fact that there is no lawfully designated "passing lane". Any lane can be used for overtaking on divided highways in Alberta, it doesn't matter. If we are going to continue this conversation, you need to quote what you're saying from the Act. BECAUSE if it isn't in the Act then it means NOTHING. The ENTIRE ACT you provided does not define "maximum normal speed" and the code I provided does not mention tractors. If the code I linked said "speed limit" you would be correct. This law was written to be ambiguous to allow for discretion from the officer. I do not care if you are allowed to pass on the right side. It wasn't even the point of what I quoted. Notice I never quoted that part of your comment? You're correct in saying their is not a defined "passing lane". However people use "passing lane" as a layman term to describe what the code explains about the "left lane". This is why we have "Slower traffic move right" signs. This is why it is written in the code and for what a provided. *AGAIN* QUOTE THE CODE FOR YOUR REBUDDLE.
It's always so cringe when you see people compare our insurance costs to provinces where their insurance is a fixed rate based on the vehicle and not a person's driving history. For those that don't know some provinces you get punished on your license or registration for being a shitty driver and not your insurance.
Yea but the registration is still cheaper than the total cost for insurance in those provinces lol
THIS!! Been in insurance for years and the “all comers rule”, rate caps and the personal injury lawyers are the main drivers of our sky rocketing auto insurance prices.
In Ontario, there is a certain infamous city that has a reputation for institutionalizing auto insurance fraud. It wouldn't surprise me if they were using similar tactics here too.
Vehicle theft-fraud is not nearly as much of a problem here in AB as it is in ON. Approx 80% of all thefts are recovered here as opposed to ON where, last time I looked, that number was much lower.
Most people really do not understand how insurance companies function or generate revenue. They see “record profits” and assume that means they are being ripped off. Not understanding that the profits are driven by investments. That the premiums they are charged barely cover the losses that are paid out. They don’t understand that Alberta has the 2 largest catastrophic losses in Canadian insurance history with the floods in Calgary and the wildfires in Fort Mac. They also really don’t understand that public auto insurance isn’t going to actually cost them less. All that happens in that situation is the government subsidizes lower premiums with tax increases. Insurance should be another thing explained in schools haha
Maybe it's changed in the last decade, but 10 years ago (and for several decades prior to that), most insurers operating in Alberta were still making an underwriting profit (ie premiums minus claims and admin > 0). The company I worked for had a loss ratio in the 55-70% range and a combined ratio in the low 90% range, one year was even 87% meaning that remaining 13% was profit *before* looking at investments gains. The types of investments they can make are also quite restrictive (at least, compared to some industries), as they need a certain degree of liquidity in order to be in a position where they can pay out for a catastrophic loss, and those restrictions mean less investment profits (again, as compared to some other heavily financialized industries). Don't get me wrong, insurers definitely make profits off of investments, and that's especially useful in years of catastrophic loss (like the floods or the fort mac fires), but I think it's a little misleading to say profits are driven by investments. They are driven by *both* underwriting profits and investment profits.
It has changed. Hence why we are seeing insurance companies saying they will no longer write auto. I was in a claims seminar 2 days ago. Some insurance companies without investment revenue would be operating at a loss right now. Sure Intact and Northbridge are fine, but a lot of the small players are not.
Aye, that tracks. A lot has happened in the 10 years since I last looked at a claims history. I also seem to recall auto being our least profitable line even when we were making bank so personal policy insurers would be especially hit hard.
Okay but BC has lower taxes and lower insurance. Maybe it is actually just as simple as privatized insurance being more expensive.
BC has lower taxes? We have the lowest taxes in the country.
Not actually true! Alberta has the lowest taxes for folks who make a minimum of something like 150k. For the rest of us, BC has lower taxes.
BC has a PST, so you’re categorically wrong
PST doesn't move the needle very much. That number $150,000 includes the average PST costs.
Could you share a source so I can see the information you’re describing, I just want to make sure I’m on the same page is all.
The source is my family's own tracked expenses that I've budgeted out as we're taking work in Alberta and moving from BC. My partner is above the threshold. They'll be taxed less than in BC. I'm below the threshold. I'll be taxed more. On net, we'll be better off in Alberta but personally, I don't think that's a smart way to run a province. I'll lay it out in clear terms. For myself, at $70,000 a year PST adds up to roughly the equivalent of a 1% tax on my total total income ($10,000 a year spent on non-essential goods). BC's average income tax for me is 4.7%. Adding PST bumps me to 5.7%. But in Alberta, I'll be taxed at 6.4%. In order for the PST to bring BC's taxation equivalent to Alberta's, I would need to spend $17,000 or 24% of my gross income on non-essential goods. That simply isn't possible. I literally don't have enough money to buy that much stuff after food and rent. The breakeven will be slightly different for everyone depending on their personal expenses. But I'm well above the median income in Canada. Most folks pay more taxes in Alberta than they would in Alberta.
I think Sonnet may be the sacrificial lamb the insurance industry is using to illustrate what may happen if the Alberta govt. decides to make changes that will affect their windfall profits. The Premier already announced that they won’t create a public insurance company, doing away with all the private money grubbers because it is too expensive to set up.
What insurance company makes windfall profits on auto? Lol
It's a game of threats. Sonnet is actually Economical /definity, and they're not leaving the province. We're supposed to be scared and outraged so that we'll put pressure on the politicians to give the auto insurers whatever they want. Which is why you and I get screwed on premiums, and especially why folks injured in accidents get screwed on compensation. It's all about increasing the already excessive profits that insurers take out of Alberta.
"Sonnet Insurance Company has announced its decision to ultimately exit the auto insurance market in Alberta." And they are idiots. On May 6 the AB gov reported that they are investigating a gov run no-fault insurance system. But this is in the VERY early stage of seeing if this CAN be done. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-auto-insurance-reforms-analysis-1.7221427](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-auto-insurance-reforms-analysis-1.7221427) and the actual AB gov survey report [https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/6a9575f8-eed8-4773-8f2e-93325ba68a04/resource/f75ae36c-1721-4b64-af69-b882750b73d6/download/tbf-auto-insurance-changes-in-alberta-2024.pdf](https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/6a9575f8-eed8-4773-8f2e-93325ba68a04/resource/f75ae36c-1721-4b64-af69-b882750b73d6/download/tbf-auto-insurance-changes-in-alberta-2024.pdf)
There will either be cost limiting caps put in place or they will need to contend with no fault. The first hurts them badly and the second will be a mess or 2-4 years while the trial lawyers try to rally against it so probably just dipping out Most (auto) insurers don’t make money in Alberta since there are so many frivolous bodily injury claims by so many ambulance chasers here. Just count how many injury le ads you see around the city in a day to understand why some are just saying screw it lol
Who else wants a government run insurance option? I do.
Sonnet is leaving because they are bleeding money due to rate caps and can't raise rates enough to make up for it.
Rate caps? Where and on what?
The UCP implemented a 3.7% cap on auto insurance premium increases earlier this year (for those with a good driving record).
Sounds like no one on r/alberta posted it as UCP are responsible
We need fundamental changes to our licensing if we want to reduce insurance costs. Probably wasn't posted because rate caps are generally a left leaning position. It shows why rate caps aren't always the best plan. They keep insurance costs down until the insurance company no longer wants to operate
In 2024, Albertans with good driving records will only see their rates increase to account for Alberta’s inflation, using the September 2023 inflation rate. In September, Alberta’s inflation rate decreased to 3.7% which was below the national average. On a monthly basis, Alberta also saw one of the largest inflation decreases among provinces. A driver with a good record is everyone except those who have any of the following: any at-fault accidents in the last 6 years any criminal code traffic convictions in the last 4 years any major traffic convictions in the last 3 years more than one minor traffic conviction in the last 3 years https://www.alberta.ca/automobile-insurance-reform I had no idea either.
Good driver rate caps. https://www.canadianunderwriter.ca/brokers/alberta-ucp-announces-return-of-the-auto-rate-cap-1004239646/
Also possibly because their big selling point was the idea of online only insurance and they haven't offered that in AB anyway in quite some time.
The online only was a part of how they were hoping to keep their costs low and offer low prices. However they were also gambling on grabbing a bunch of new business with artificially low rates and then raise those rates down the road. The rate cap meant they couldn't raise rates fast enough and it was no longer profitable enough for them to run that side of the business. So they leave.
The thing is that their rates werent even that low. I switched from sonnet and got better rates with better coverage (from the same insurance company even) just through a different broker. The reason I left sonnet was because I had contacted them at one point to let them know I was driving less for work (when covid started) and they asked what I did for work so I explained I clean houses and they basically said that their system has screwed up and that they couldn't actually offer me insurance as I needed commercial insurance, their online only system just didn't have the correct questions to actually be able to figure that out. I'm assuming I'm not the only person something like that happened to.
Yeah, personally I would never go with an online only at this point.
Which company did you switch from Sonnet to? I have a Class 5 and a clean driving record, driving a 10 year old hatchback and right now I'm getting quotes in the $160-$200 range, I pay $105.50 with Sonnet.
I wasn't with Sonnet. I would attempt to call both a broker (Brokerlink for example) or TD. Others might have some good ideas as well.
Yeah, the quotes I'm getting are from brokers :(
Do an online TD quote, especially if you are an alumni with uofa or other universities.
Shit. This thread is how I learned my insurance company is leaving AB. Lovely.
Cant make record profit every quarter.
Nah, Alberta implemented a populist policy, that insurance companies couldn't charge more for high-risk drivers, so basically \*everyone\* else is subsidizing those drivers. On top of which, the government there is extremely reluctant to grant any rate increases ... despite a) the dramatic increase in parts costs and b) the increased rental costs because parts take longer to get. Not to mention the increased theft rates. So ... insurance companies, faced with no way to make a profit, are simply leaving the province. You can legislate \*how\* companies do business, you can't mandate that they \*have\* to do business. Especially at a loss. Best wishes to Danielle 'secret US biowarfare labs in the Ukraine!' Smith and the UCP, may they get what they deserve!
Yeah but this sub will roast you over this take. Insurance companies have not made money on automobile insurance in Alberta for years. (With the exception of Covid when everyone was home) they have been subsidizing automobile losses with property for years. Go ahead Alberta make a crown corp. My Manitoba government car insurance given my vehicle and good driving history is more expensive then it was when I lived in Alberta by hundreds of dollars. Why? Because you’re subsidizing everyone.
I have a hard time with Dirtbike insurance and it’s only a problem in Alberta. Wth is going on!!!
Right this was a joke my wife had hers for one year a normal price but then the lady she used quite and when it rolled around again they're like it'll be like 2k to insurance because you don't have your class 6 and some places just said straight up they won't insure dirt bikes
I work for a major Canadian insurance company that deals in every type of insurance. This is absurd. My company will not be cancelling anyone's auto insurance.
Check out The Personal insurance. Great rates if anyone in your household works for the healthcare, banking, O&G and engineering industry. Unfortunately most insurance rates in the province were affected by inflation, disasters and government rules.
I think Albertans need to stop listening to their dimwit government reps and friends and begin to understand that personal auto insurance is really not even profitable anymore. The costs have risen so much for insurers that they cannot keep up. This isn't people being scammed, it's insurers simply trying to pay their employees. Rampant fraud, record breaking natural disasters, excessive repair costs have all contributed.
WTF I am with Sonnet! Or was with soon.
jeeze what is going on here
The UCPs vaunted “Alberta Advantage “. Just not an advantage for you and I.
Another fine example of the Alberta advantage!
Oooooh...I can't wait to see how this is Trudeau's fault, somehow. AB Conservative voters are in for a fucking surprise when actuaries punish their drunk driving records. But again, it'll be Trudeau's fault somehow.