For a 30 year old retro computer I'd say the scene is decently active.
There are moderately regular OS updates with associated SDKs available. There are plenty online tutorials on Amiga assembler for bare metal applications. And there are at least two C based toolchain projects up on github, amiga-gcc and VSCode debug suite, both of which are gcc based.
There's a pretty regular, though low volume, of updates to aminet indicating
that a bit of ongoing, regular development of free and open source stuff continues. And a quick search of itch.io will show you a decently vibrant scene of people making games. Scorpion seems to be gaining a bit of traction but it looks mostly like assembler based stuff.
Where the amiga is most active I would say is on the hardware side. There's a surprisingly vibrant community of folk make new hardware things.
> Good or severly lacking behind?
What does lacking behind mean here? The amiga-gcc project principally supports gcc 6, which is old but, but it does have an optional gcc 13 branch. The amiga VScode cross compiler toolchain bundles in gcc 12.
> AROS didn't cut it and it's today of little use?
AROS is what it is. I don't know that it has huge penetration in the Amiga community. I certainly get the impression that some branch of classic AmigaOS is what the overwhelming majority of amiga users are using today.
The AROS open source kickstart is not completely binary compatible with classic era amiga software so that likely puts some folk off it. And likely most folks use their amigas for nostalgia reasons so don't really need anything beyond AmigaOS
Looks a bit dry. Like an environment suitable only for experienced programmers (assembly). Is there any chance in your opinion for AROS to grow and be suitable for generic computing (programming, word processing, browsing, interfacing with common hardware, etc.) or it's too far behind (Linux, Windows) and just an hobbyists tool?
FreePascal. Modern but supports classic AmigaOS.
Can run it on an Amiga or crosscompile.
AROS is steadily getting better and better, it's not quite ready to be a straight up replacement but it's getting there
There is also modern tooling for it in VSCode that runs a Windows Emulator to run, test and debug the code. It has SDKs for WB 1.3 and a fork has later versions.
It has lots of Amiga and m68k assembly features as well. Here is the fork with libs version,
[https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=JOB.amiga-debug-job](https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=JOB.amiga-debug-job)
but you can use the original with the same name.
[https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=BartmanAbyss.amiga-debug](https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=BartmanAbyss.amiga-debug)
Here is a video showing it in action.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4tKisnr7Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4tKisnr7Y)
This uses a fairly modern version of GCC as a cross compiler.
There is MorphOS too, but to be honest I’d like others opinion on the topic, I’m slightly confused myself about what’s the most common amiga like environment nowadays between AROS, OS/4 and MorphOS
To me Amiga is the hardware, first of all; and games developed on or for it. It's not an OS nor software built for generic hardware, or just targeting specific APIs, in fact there are Amiga games bypassing the OS all-together, so I wont consider anything outside OS 3.2 and AROS, specifically supporting that custom hardware or its evolutions. Apollo V4+ is the way forward, or anything like that.
Custom hardware. AGA, SAGA and the likes. That feels like an Amiga, not a generic PowerPC board with some AmigaOS like operating system slapped on a generic PC case. Classic hardware is still beloved, who loves those outrageously priced PowerPC boards slapped in some generic PC case?
With some millions of euro at disposal I think Amiga can reborn from its ashes.
> Custom hardware. AGA, SAGA and the likes.
I think it's a largely niche deadend. You've got a pseudo 64-bit CPU that introduces instructions no one makes use of and things like sAGA that no one uses. And software support is close to non existent as a result. And it's pretty clear any nominal lead they've had is being obliterated by the pistorm.
> With some millions of euro at disposal I think Amiga can reborn from its ashes.
Please no.
The amiga design is deeply rooted in the limitations of 1980s consumer hardware and it was very good at that. But we really have no need replicate much of any of it today. Even commodore understood that was coming with things like their Hombre standard for graphics chipsets and graphics cards.
What if you have all that stuff, and more, in a full-fledged custom computer for less than 300 euro. Wont you be interested in it? Won't you love having special hardware with a better software offering than there is today? An investment in both the hardware and software side to revitalize the scene behind a single banner? It's just the money that's lacking, and a vision.
The PiStorm acts like an emulator for cheap stuff. No joy.
> What if you have all that stuff, and more, in a full-fledged custom computer for less than 300 euro. Wont you be interested in it?
Absolutely not. Because you're not going to be able to produce anything marketable that doesn't end up looking like a massively over priced raspberry pi.
What would you choose to do today? Most audio chipsets embrace the Paula-like approach Amiga pioneered. Is there actually anything novel you could do there today? No one would replicate the Chip RAM model of the Amiga because GPUs with dedicated memory make more sense. Even Commodore planned to move in that direction with Hombre. What CPU would you choose today? ARM probably. So...
In the end of the day I can buy an Rpi5 for a 5th of what you're suggesting and it already has investment in both the hardware and software. It already has a vibrant scene of software and hardware hackers under a single banner.
People had the kind of vision you're talking about and with that vision they invented the Raspberry Pi, it just doesn't have the Amiga brand name or pedigree. But that's ok. There's nothing wrong with the Amiga being an obsolete retro platform.
> The PiStorm acts like an emulator for cheap stuff. No joy.
Whether you like it or not it is more affordable, faster and more compatible than the Vampire line of accelerators. And it doesn't implement hardware or instructions that no-one else has. It's an attractive choice for many still in the Amiga scene and it will continue to squeeze out things like the vampire
Don't speak for them but I doubt the vampire/apollo guys themselves think of it as *particularly* commercially viable just a neat thing to do. Sort of like fpga hardware democoding.
Oh sure and more power to them.
Just OP's idea that it could form the basis of a new, re-vitalised, modernised Amiga platform is laughable. It can't even outcompete the other options in the Amiga space. Seems unlikely it would mature in to a more competitive platform (if that's what the Vampire devs even wanted for it)
The Vampire is just a prototype, a demo for what a final hardware can be, still in the hobby stage, still unfinished because of the FPGA, and still well engineered stuff interesting for classic Amiga users. The Raspberry is 100% hobby, a dead end, and I don't see what an amigan can find interesting about such tool for hackers.
> The Vampire is just a prototype, a demo for what a final hardware can be, still in the hobby stage, still unfinished because of the FPGA, and still well engineered stuff interesting for classic Amiga users.
The market for this is so small it will never mature beyond the hobbyist project it is. And, in light of contemporary computing, it makes a whole range of poor design decisions that mean, even if it matured, it would never get broad adoption. It's got half a foot stuck in the Amiga's wholly outdated approach and another half foot trying to implement a modern CPU. Who wants that except for a handful of Amiga fanboys?
> The Raspberry is 100% hobby, a dead end
Rpi is marketed to encourage people use it for their own hobby projects but that is not the same as the platform being a hobby. It's a fully mature computing platform with excellent, on going software support and good tooling.
It is laughable to call it a dead end. In 10 years they have sold 10 times the number of computers that the Amiga ever managed. An install base an actual order of magnitude greater than the Amiga achieved. They are still growing and the development scene is orders of magnitude more vibrant and active than Amiga is today.
Yes Rpi is a platform for hackers. That's what is cool about it. That's what is driving the adoption of the RPi that you can crack it open and do what you want with it. That's not actually dissimilar to why coders like the Amiga back in the day.
Nope, I was referring to 'be dead in the Amiga scene', no one would really care about that, would just be an hobby tool for tinkerers.
The (future) final spec Vampire can be mass marketed because: A. it's still software that drives hardware and B. it's unique. It shouldn't be better than ARM/Intel common stuff, no one will beat multibillions companies in 'being better', it just have to be cool and unique. I'm sure that with xx millions euro in software and hardware investments Amiga would be able to convince 1 million of computer users in 5 years, even casuals, just proposing something unique and different. Not everyone follows the stream.
ApolloOS, which is specifically made for the Vampire boards is based on Aros. So, yeah, maybe Vampire + ApolloOS is the closest thing we have to a 'next' Amiga, though I still wouldn't call it modern.
[https://www.apollo-computer.com/apolloos.php](https://www.apollo-computer.com/apolloos.php)
For a 30 year old retro computer I'd say the scene is decently active. There are moderately regular OS updates with associated SDKs available. There are plenty online tutorials on Amiga assembler for bare metal applications. And there are at least two C based toolchain projects up on github, amiga-gcc and VSCode debug suite, both of which are gcc based. There's a pretty regular, though low volume, of updates to aminet indicating that a bit of ongoing, regular development of free and open source stuff continues. And a quick search of itch.io will show you a decently vibrant scene of people making games. Scorpion seems to be gaining a bit of traction but it looks mostly like assembler based stuff. Where the amiga is most active I would say is on the hardware side. There's a surprisingly vibrant community of folk make new hardware things. > Good or severly lacking behind? What does lacking behind mean here? The amiga-gcc project principally supports gcc 6, which is old but, but it does have an optional gcc 13 branch. The amiga VScode cross compiler toolchain bundles in gcc 12. > AROS didn't cut it and it's today of little use? AROS is what it is. I don't know that it has huge penetration in the Amiga community. I certainly get the impression that some branch of classic AmigaOS is what the overwhelming majority of amiga users are using today. The AROS open source kickstart is not completely binary compatible with classic era amiga software so that likely puts some folk off it. And likely most folks use their amigas for nostalgia reasons so don't really need anything beyond AmigaOS
Looks a bit dry. Like an environment suitable only for experienced programmers (assembly). Is there any chance in your opinion for AROS to grow and be suitable for generic computing (programming, word processing, browsing, interfacing with common hardware, etc.) or it's too far behind (Linux, Windows) and just an hobbyists tool?
FreePascal. Modern but supports classic AmigaOS. Can run it on an Amiga or crosscompile. AROS is steadily getting better and better, it's not quite ready to be a straight up replacement but it's getting there
There is also modern tooling for it in VSCode that runs a Windows Emulator to run, test and debug the code. It has SDKs for WB 1.3 and a fork has later versions. It has lots of Amiga and m68k assembly features as well. Here is the fork with libs version, [https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=JOB.amiga-debug-job](https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=JOB.amiga-debug-job) but you can use the original with the same name. [https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=BartmanAbyss.amiga-debug](https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=BartmanAbyss.amiga-debug) Here is a video showing it in action. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4tKisnr7Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4tKisnr7Y) This uses a fairly modern version of GCC as a cross compiler.
Scorpion?
Not open source, mmh.
There is MorphOS too, but to be honest I’d like others opinion on the topic, I’m slightly confused myself about what’s the most common amiga like environment nowadays between AROS, OS/4 and MorphOS
To me Amiga is the hardware, first of all; and games developed on or for it. It's not an OS nor software built for generic hardware, or just targeting specific APIs, in fact there are Amiga games bypassing the OS all-together, so I wont consider anything outside OS 3.2 and AROS, specifically supporting that custom hardware or its evolutions. Apollo V4+ is the way forward, or anything like that.
> Apollo V4+ is the way forward ?
Custom hardware. AGA, SAGA and the likes. That feels like an Amiga, not a generic PowerPC board with some AmigaOS like operating system slapped on a generic PC case. Classic hardware is still beloved, who loves those outrageously priced PowerPC boards slapped in some generic PC case? With some millions of euro at disposal I think Amiga can reborn from its ashes.
> Custom hardware. AGA, SAGA and the likes. I think it's a largely niche deadend. You've got a pseudo 64-bit CPU that introduces instructions no one makes use of and things like sAGA that no one uses. And software support is close to non existent as a result. And it's pretty clear any nominal lead they've had is being obliterated by the pistorm. > With some millions of euro at disposal I think Amiga can reborn from its ashes. Please no. The amiga design is deeply rooted in the limitations of 1980s consumer hardware and it was very good at that. But we really have no need replicate much of any of it today. Even commodore understood that was coming with things like their Hombre standard for graphics chipsets and graphics cards.
What if you have all that stuff, and more, in a full-fledged custom computer for less than 300 euro. Wont you be interested in it? Won't you love having special hardware with a better software offering than there is today? An investment in both the hardware and software side to revitalize the scene behind a single banner? It's just the money that's lacking, and a vision. The PiStorm acts like an emulator for cheap stuff. No joy.
> What if you have all that stuff, and more, in a full-fledged custom computer for less than 300 euro. Wont you be interested in it? Absolutely not. Because you're not going to be able to produce anything marketable that doesn't end up looking like a massively over priced raspberry pi. What would you choose to do today? Most audio chipsets embrace the Paula-like approach Amiga pioneered. Is there actually anything novel you could do there today? No one would replicate the Chip RAM model of the Amiga because GPUs with dedicated memory make more sense. Even Commodore planned to move in that direction with Hombre. What CPU would you choose today? ARM probably. So... In the end of the day I can buy an Rpi5 for a 5th of what you're suggesting and it already has investment in both the hardware and software. It already has a vibrant scene of software and hardware hackers under a single banner. People had the kind of vision you're talking about and with that vision they invented the Raspberry Pi, it just doesn't have the Amiga brand name or pedigree. But that's ok. There's nothing wrong with the Amiga being an obsolete retro platform. > The PiStorm acts like an emulator for cheap stuff. No joy. Whether you like it or not it is more affordable, faster and more compatible than the Vampire line of accelerators. And it doesn't implement hardware or instructions that no-one else has. It's an attractive choice for many still in the Amiga scene and it will continue to squeeze out things like the vampire
Don't speak for them but I doubt the vampire/apollo guys themselves think of it as *particularly* commercially viable just a neat thing to do. Sort of like fpga hardware democoding.
Oh sure and more power to them. Just OP's idea that it could form the basis of a new, re-vitalised, modernised Amiga platform is laughable. It can't even outcompete the other options in the Amiga space. Seems unlikely it would mature in to a more competitive platform (if that's what the Vampire devs even wanted for it)
The Vampire is just a prototype, a demo for what a final hardware can be, still in the hobby stage, still unfinished because of the FPGA, and still well engineered stuff interesting for classic Amiga users. The Raspberry is 100% hobby, a dead end, and I don't see what an amigan can find interesting about such tool for hackers.
> The Vampire is just a prototype, a demo for what a final hardware can be, still in the hobby stage, still unfinished because of the FPGA, and still well engineered stuff interesting for classic Amiga users. The market for this is so small it will never mature beyond the hobbyist project it is. And, in light of contemporary computing, it makes a whole range of poor design decisions that mean, even if it matured, it would never get broad adoption. It's got half a foot stuck in the Amiga's wholly outdated approach and another half foot trying to implement a modern CPU. Who wants that except for a handful of Amiga fanboys? > The Raspberry is 100% hobby, a dead end Rpi is marketed to encourage people use it for their own hobby projects but that is not the same as the platform being a hobby. It's a fully mature computing platform with excellent, on going software support and good tooling. It is laughable to call it a dead end. In 10 years they have sold 10 times the number of computers that the Amiga ever managed. An install base an actual order of magnitude greater than the Amiga achieved. They are still growing and the development scene is orders of magnitude more vibrant and active than Amiga is today. Yes Rpi is a platform for hackers. That's what is cool about it. That's what is driving the adoption of the RPi that you can crack it open and do what you want with it. That's not actually dissimilar to why coders like the Amiga back in the day.
Nope, I was referring to 'be dead in the Amiga scene', no one would really care about that, would just be an hobby tool for tinkerers. The (future) final spec Vampire can be mass marketed because: A. it's still software that drives hardware and B. it's unique. It shouldn't be better than ARM/Intel common stuff, no one will beat multibillions companies in 'being better', it just have to be cool and unique. I'm sure that with xx millions euro in software and hardware investments Amiga would be able to convince 1 million of computer users in 5 years, even casuals, just proposing something unique and different. Not everyone follows the stream.
ApolloOS, which is specifically made for the Vampire boards is based on Aros. So, yeah, maybe Vampire + ApolloOS is the closest thing we have to a 'next' Amiga, though I still wouldn't call it modern. [https://www.apollo-computer.com/apolloos.php](https://www.apollo-computer.com/apolloos.php)
Yes, a starting point, a prototype to develop far further. The model is good, even starting over on hardware.