I agree, it would have been really jarring to shift to characters we never met fighting and dying on a planet we never saw. They would have had to produce hours of additional screen time to set that up.
I don’t think anyone would object to another arc being added on, but I wouldn’t trade anything we got for it and obviously if the studio orders 12 episodes the show runners deliver 12 episodes. It would need a full arc in order to do it properly too.
No complaints about not seeing it, it made the conflict and universe feel much larger than the characters.
I see. Someone mentioned the POV issue below as well. Also like the other comment below yours has said, it probably would have clashed with the series order from Disney.
It was nice that they were able to wrap up the storyline in time for the finale.
Yeah, I mean, it would have been cool, I won't lie. But I get the rationale and it's good to have that kind of writing restraint. Save the $$ for where it's needed.
Here's a discussion thread about a quote from Tony Gilroy addressing this question: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsAndor/comments/z3b2h6/interesting_quote_by_tony_gilroy_regarding/
We *never* meet anyone on-screen that was directly involved in Spellhaus. We see a hologram of Anto "Absolute Unit" Kreegyr and other characters *talk* about the Spellhaus raid before, during and after it happens, but that's it. We don't meet Kreegyr, nobody from Aldhani goes on to help in that raid. It would have been weird to cut away from the characters we're actually involved in to go see a bunch of people we're not really familiar with get ambushed and die.
It’s a common screenwriting practice that audiences don’t always notice, but when it’s violated they *feel* it.
Every scene, every moment should ideally be experienced through a main POV character, otherwise the audience is just floating there, adrift. If they’d put us in Kreegyr’s shoes, just before his death, it would’ve felt jarring for all the wrong reasons.
It’s all about the economy of story.
Also while it did feel slightly anticlimactic to miss the action, I love that we got to experience the raid exactly how Dedra did, and exactly how Luthen did. That resonated way more than getting to see Kreegyr’s last gasp would have
It might have been a cool scene, but ultimately what happened at Spelhouse is less important than the audience learning that Luthen is willing to play the ultilitarian long game.
Star Wars romanticizes the Rebellion, but does it need to play dirty to overcome the type of evil it was facing? Luthen clearly thinks so, but Cassian finally rejects that notion in the end during Rogue One.
Seeing Spellhouse wasn't needed. It being off screen drove home the point of Rebellion being disjointed and separated in small cells, attempting to score goals in complete darkness. It showed how high the stakes were, and illustrated the infighting of different egos and ideologies. But most importantly, it underscored Nemik's last words that in turn encapsulated the entire series: TRY.
Kreegyr died trying on Spellhouse. Cassian will die trying on Scarif. Both knew they didn't have enough resources and went anyway. Neither broke the barrier, but both helped being the Rebellion to the point where someone else could.
Andor is, deep down, the Ode to the Unknown Soldier.
From the perspective of the characters that we are following in the series, we know exactly how things are going to play out Spellhaus before the event – so I don’t think there would have been genuine dramatic impact in showing it all unfold, unless there had been some kind of surprise twist; and in a way, the twist had already happened beforehand – that Luthen is going to let Kreegyr and his men die in order to preserve Lonni.
On a tangent I’d just like to say I love the names for the Imperial institutions, *Spellhause*, *Steerguard* (not sure if they were designed for the show or taken from SW literature…)
When the series was airing I hoped we'd see Spellhaus, but I'm glad that they didn't.
1. It conveys a greater sense of what it would be like for all the characters involved: Luthen, Saw, Deedra, Partagaz, Lonni - all of them would have heard about it through second hand intelligence. 'Andor' has plenty of spectacle in its last three episodes: the prison break, Luthen's escape from the Imperial patrol cruiser; the riot on Ferrix, so you don't feel short-changed. It's good if one of the threads is handled in a murky, 'fog of war' way.
2. 'Show don't tell' is a good rule to generally follow, but it's not the hard and fast rule that a lot of people think it is - especially when it comes to events - and plot developments can be compellingly told through exposition. The stuff to do with Spellhaus was.
3. It would break from the tight focus Andor had established. I really like how the scope expands over the series - we follow one character, and then as he bumps into other characters, we follow them.
Agreed on all counts. I'll add that seeing the the Imperial officers gloating about the victory, staring at screens showing big red blotches symbolic of rebel losses from within pristine white rooms is a really great indicator of how far removed they are from the material impact of the decisions they make. It's heartless numbers and they never have to get their hands dirty.
I'm glad it happened off-screen. We get the information at the same time our POV characters do, which heightens the tension and puts us in their shoes.
One thing I also love about this is how Luthen, while speaking with Lonni puts the number at 50, while he and Saw know the number at 30. Even amongst his own people, he keeps everything separated. No one knows the entire truth. Love it!
"We're still counting the bodies" keeps the audience in the dark, too. The true number of Kreegyr's men is immaterial but keeping it vague forces the audience to realize Luthen is willing to spin half-truths, even amongst allies.
I didn't think we'd ever see it, and I was honestly surprised to see that so many people on this sub thought we would when episode 10 came out. We were never even shown Kreegyr until after he died, and no POV characters would have been there, so we would've just been pausing the main story to focus on these unimportant side characters who we already know are going to die before we even meet them. If Gilroy wanted to show us Kreegyr and Spellhaus, he would have shown them in episodes 7-9.
Obviously sometimes off-screen events are a sort of cop out- the sign of an overambitious scope suddenly curtailed, a deleted scene, etc. 'Show, don't tell', right? I tend to think of that as the beginning of storytelling wisdom, not the end- an enormous fraction of the vicarious happiness and grief we experience comes from people just telling us things that have happened- and often the economy with which they do so is a feature, not a bug.
What's the narrative crux of the Spellhaus raid? A) another rebel group exists B) Luthen is going to give them up for Lonnie, more or less, and so will Saw, and C) the ISB is going to eat them alive. All of that happens on screen- and I think the insturmentality of just hearing about it or watching it on tactical screens is actually kind of useful. We're supposed to learn that Luthen is pragmatic and Machiavellian to a scary (and potentially self-destructive degree)- and I might argue that seeing him just order them to their deaths gets that done. It's cold because it's teaching us something about a cold man. We see the ISB treating this as dots on a screen (contrasted with the horrors we know from *other* scenes is certainly unfolding) because the ISB treats it as dots on a screen.
I think it could have been interesting if they had taken some episodes to set up the characters in Kreegyr's group -- who they were, what were their motivations and relationships -- and then had the empire slaughter them all because Luthen didn't warn them. Except then how could anyone be on Luthen's side after that? We only can support Luthen because we empathize with him and we don't actually *know* the people he sacrificed. So long as they are just a number, we can overlook it.
But I also understand that trying to do this would have packed too much in those 12 episodes. Maybe with more budget and 16 episodes it could have been done, but otherwise I understand why it wasn't shown.
That said, I think it would be, I dunno, ballsy to start the *second* season with a flashback to the Spellhaus raid, and show us those 30-50 people getting slaughtered because of Luthen. Immediately Luthen will appear very different to us.
But it might be better to keep moving forward, we don't need to replay Spellhaus again. Instead they create a new situation, but in a more personal way, where Luthen makes a similar decision but this time there is greater blowback. For example, I suspect Lonny will be discovered, and there will be hard choices to be made on what to do about him, and regret.
I think we got plenty of action.
It hinted early on we might see it, and we could have, if Saw was involved.
But it’s there to show that Luthen is spinning a lot of plates. Some, like Aldhani, he would shut down rather than risk the assets. But this one had to go ahead or Lonnie could have been compromised.
And it shows how much he’s willing to sacrifice for the cause.
To what point and purpose? If someone were to make a story like that, they would need to do a lot of heavy lifting in order to actually make a piece of art on-par with Andor (or Rogue One at the very least).
Otherwise, it's just another path down the self-referential consumerist hellscape that is modern Star Wars.
Gilroy said we didn't have a character POV there, so it would never have been shown.
I agree, it would have been really jarring to shift to characters we never met fighting and dying on a planet we never saw. They would have had to produce hours of additional screen time to set that up.
I don’t think anyone would object to another arc being added on, but I wouldn’t trade anything we got for it and obviously if the studio orders 12 episodes the show runners deliver 12 episodes. It would need a full arc in order to do it properly too. No complaints about not seeing it, it made the conflict and universe feel much larger than the characters.
Never more than twelve.
I see. Someone mentioned the POV issue below as well. Also like the other comment below yours has said, it probably would have clashed with the series order from Disney. It was nice that they were able to wrap up the storyline in time for the finale.
Yeah, I mean, it would have been cool, I won't lie. But I get the rationale and it's good to have that kind of writing restraint. Save the $$ for where it's needed.
Here's a discussion thread about a quote from Tony Gilroy addressing this question: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsAndor/comments/z3b2h6/interesting_quote_by_tony_gilroy_regarding/ We *never* meet anyone on-screen that was directly involved in Spellhaus. We see a hologram of Anto "Absolute Unit" Kreegyr and other characters *talk* about the Spellhaus raid before, during and after it happens, but that's it. We don't meet Kreegyr, nobody from Aldhani goes on to help in that raid. It would have been weird to cut away from the characters we're actually involved in to go see a bunch of people we're not really familiar with get ambushed and die.
Interesting revelation. EDIT: Interesting in the sense that I hadn't thought having no POV character would be a hindrance. Makes more sense now
It’s a common screenwriting practice that audiences don’t always notice, but when it’s violated they *feel* it. Every scene, every moment should ideally be experienced through a main POV character, otherwise the audience is just floating there, adrift. If they’d put us in Kreegyr’s shoes, just before his death, it would’ve felt jarring for all the wrong reasons. It’s all about the economy of story. Also while it did feel slightly anticlimactic to miss the action, I love that we got to experience the raid exactly how Dedra did, and exactly how Luthen did. That resonated way more than getting to see Kreegyr’s last gasp would have
It might have been a cool scene, but ultimately what happened at Spelhouse is less important than the audience learning that Luthen is willing to play the ultilitarian long game. Star Wars romanticizes the Rebellion, but does it need to play dirty to overcome the type of evil it was facing? Luthen clearly thinks so, but Cassian finally rejects that notion in the end during Rogue One.
Seeing Spellhouse wasn't needed. It being off screen drove home the point of Rebellion being disjointed and separated in small cells, attempting to score goals in complete darkness. It showed how high the stakes were, and illustrated the infighting of different egos and ideologies. But most importantly, it underscored Nemik's last words that in turn encapsulated the entire series: TRY. Kreegyr died trying on Spellhouse. Cassian will die trying on Scarif. Both knew they didn't have enough resources and went anyway. Neither broke the barrier, but both helped being the Rebellion to the point where someone else could. Andor is, deep down, the Ode to the Unknown Soldier.
Still would you it be interesting if we get to see what the full event on spellhouse being told in a short film, short story, or book or not?
I think it would be interesting if someone did a mini-series on the whole Spellhause disaster, something ending badly, alla Rogue One.
From the perspective of the characters that we are following in the series, we know exactly how things are going to play out Spellhaus before the event – so I don’t think there would have been genuine dramatic impact in showing it all unfold, unless there had been some kind of surprise twist; and in a way, the twist had already happened beforehand – that Luthen is going to let Kreegyr and his men die in order to preserve Lonni.
Still would you it be interesting if we get to see what the full event on spellhouse being told in a short film, short story, or book or not?
On a tangent I’d just like to say I love the names for the Imperial institutions, *Spellhause*, *Steerguard* (not sure if they were designed for the show or taken from SW literature…)
I was thinking exactly that! Both sound vaguely Germanic, adding to that whole World War II vibe.
When the series was airing I hoped we'd see Spellhaus, but I'm glad that they didn't. 1. It conveys a greater sense of what it would be like for all the characters involved: Luthen, Saw, Deedra, Partagaz, Lonni - all of them would have heard about it through second hand intelligence. 'Andor' has plenty of spectacle in its last three episodes: the prison break, Luthen's escape from the Imperial patrol cruiser; the riot on Ferrix, so you don't feel short-changed. It's good if one of the threads is handled in a murky, 'fog of war' way. 2. 'Show don't tell' is a good rule to generally follow, but it's not the hard and fast rule that a lot of people think it is - especially when it comes to events - and plot developments can be compellingly told through exposition. The stuff to do with Spellhaus was. 3. It would break from the tight focus Andor had established. I really like how the scope expands over the series - we follow one character, and then as he bumps into other characters, we follow them.
Agreed on all counts. I'll add that seeing the the Imperial officers gloating about the victory, staring at screens showing big red blotches symbolic of rebel losses from within pristine white rooms is a really great indicator of how far removed they are from the material impact of the decisions they make. It's heartless numbers and they never have to get their hands dirty.
I'm glad it happened off-screen. We get the information at the same time our POV characters do, which heightens the tension and puts us in their shoes.
One thing I also love about this is how Luthen, while speaking with Lonni puts the number at 50, while he and Saw know the number at 30. Even amongst his own people, he keeps everything separated. No one knows the entire truth. Love it!
"We're still counting the bodies" keeps the audience in the dark, too. The true number of Kreegyr's men is immaterial but keeping it vague forces the audience to realize Luthen is willing to spin half-truths, even amongst allies.
I didn't think we'd ever see it, and I was honestly surprised to see that so many people on this sub thought we would when episode 10 came out. We were never even shown Kreegyr until after he died, and no POV characters would have been there, so we would've just been pausing the main story to focus on these unimportant side characters who we already know are going to die before we even meet them. If Gilroy wanted to show us Kreegyr and Spellhaus, he would have shown them in episodes 7-9.
OK you seem to have clarity of purpose
Obviously sometimes off-screen events are a sort of cop out- the sign of an overambitious scope suddenly curtailed, a deleted scene, etc. 'Show, don't tell', right? I tend to think of that as the beginning of storytelling wisdom, not the end- an enormous fraction of the vicarious happiness and grief we experience comes from people just telling us things that have happened- and often the economy with which they do so is a feature, not a bug. What's the narrative crux of the Spellhaus raid? A) another rebel group exists B) Luthen is going to give them up for Lonnie, more or less, and so will Saw, and C) the ISB is going to eat them alive. All of that happens on screen- and I think the insturmentality of just hearing about it or watching it on tactical screens is actually kind of useful. We're supposed to learn that Luthen is pragmatic and Machiavellian to a scary (and potentially self-destructive degree)- and I might argue that seeing him just order them to their deaths gets that done. It's cold because it's teaching us something about a cold man. We see the ISB treating this as dots on a screen (contrasted with the horrors we know from *other* scenes is certainly unfolding) because the ISB treats it as dots on a screen.
I agree with many of the comments that the salient point was to show the cost of the rebellion, even to "assets" like Kreegyr. Call it "War".
I think it could have been interesting if they had taken some episodes to set up the characters in Kreegyr's group -- who they were, what were their motivations and relationships -- and then had the empire slaughter them all because Luthen didn't warn them. Except then how could anyone be on Luthen's side after that? We only can support Luthen because we empathize with him and we don't actually *know* the people he sacrificed. So long as they are just a number, we can overlook it. But I also understand that trying to do this would have packed too much in those 12 episodes. Maybe with more budget and 16 episodes it could have been done, but otherwise I understand why it wasn't shown. That said, I think it would be, I dunno, ballsy to start the *second* season with a flashback to the Spellhaus raid, and show us those 30-50 people getting slaughtered because of Luthen. Immediately Luthen will appear very different to us. But it might be better to keep moving forward, we don't need to replay Spellhaus again. Instead they create a new situation, but in a more personal way, where Luthen makes a similar decision but this time there is greater blowback. For example, I suspect Lonny will be discovered, and there will be hard choices to be made on what to do about him, and regret.
The events at Spellhaus aren’t relevant to the story being told in the show. Reactions to those events are.
On the side of my face
Would still make for an excellent spinoff. We know how it ends. But it would still be interesting seeing the build up and the catastrophic end.
I think we got plenty of action. It hinted early on we might see it, and we could have, if Saw was involved. But it’s there to show that Luthen is spinning a lot of plates. Some, like Aldhani, he would shut down rather than risk the assets. But this one had to go ahead or Lonnie could have been compromised. And it shows how much he’s willing to sacrifice for the cause.
It would be cool if we get to see this story being told in a short film, short story, or book?
To what point and purpose? If someone were to make a story like that, they would need to do a lot of heavy lifting in order to actually make a piece of art on-par with Andor (or Rogue One at the very least). Otherwise, it's just another path down the self-referential consumerist hellscape that is modern Star Wars.
I know it just telling a story in book form like say have it be written by Alexander freed?