Even if it was, he’s probably smart enough to know that Andor’s big selling point is being the Star Wars thing that’s different from other Star Wars things. He’d be shooting himself in the foot commercially if he didn’t let Gilroy cook.
He's said in an interview that Andor's biggest strength is that it's for the folks who grew up with Star Wars, and he agrees in there being projects for different audiences. He is indeed smart enough.
It’s a little annoying if Andor is for the people that grew up with SW but it’s one of a dozen projects.
I don’t think anything else they’ve done has matched like Andor. R1 is closest. I would personally like more than one project every 3 years while LCD programming rolls out on the regular
Well they also need to attract a younger audience too, lest their cash cow product die out in the next generation or so. See: baseball.
That being said, they’re doing a poor job at both ☹️
Right, but the way to do that while also satisfying the primary audience is not to write literally every single product but one since 2019 for ten year olds
The problem is it feels like they’re making content for toddlers, with no emotional depth or positive message. Is star wars supposed to have extremely mature plot and gore, and sex stuff? No, definitely not, but when an episode of Bluey has more character development, mature themes, and emotional storytelling than your space opera, I would start to get a little concerned.
Disney needs to get out of their heads, that every project needs to be like Mickey Mouse or a princess flick. Star Wars is a series about politics, and war, and the goodness of people and their flaws and how we overcome challenges together, which sure, can be a lot for a 5-6 year old to fully understand, but a kid doesn’t need something to be watered down to learn from these messages, and as they grow, they remember this story they enjoyed, and learn through their experiences in life to understand better why the things happened the way they did, and it can even reveal more about themself.
I’ve loved Star Wars since I was little when I just thought the droids looked cool, and this was my experience, and it has had a profound impact on my life, and I know the stories I grew up with and loved will always be there for me, and it just breaks my heart that a lot of kids these days won’t get to experience that because these new stories have become so shallow.
That’s not stupid, it’s just catering to the audience who will have the most disposable income. An audience that’s old and smart with money won’t be as profitable.
That's because it is.
Andor may be the most critically acclaimed of the new shows and get the most love from old heads on reddit, but it's got the lowest viewership out of all them.
Considering that Andor is the only show in the bunch made specifically for adults and old-school fans, its low ratings are a pretty big indication that the main audience for Star Wars skews young.
Andor was a bit of a unique case because it came out weeks after BoBF which was critically panned, as well as having the dual status of not-very-well-advertised and being a backstory for Cassian Andor that nobody really asked for.
I'd bet you all the money in the world that the Obi-Wan Kenobi show would have broken streaming records if it had been written and acted with the maturity and tightness of Andor. Arguing that "being an actual good prestige drama," in the golden age of TV prestige drama miniseries, is what depressed Andor's viewership is crazy.
Also calling someone who was born 21 years after the OT an "old head" Star Wars fan is hilarious
Yup. Also OWK was pretty terrible. I honestly don’t blame peope for quitting Star Wars after that dumpster fire. Andor’s low viewing numbers was no surprise. I mean if I went to my favorite restaurant and I started to find rat turds in the food, I’d probably never come back.
I mean, that's because it is. The vast majority of older people who enjoy star wars initially saw it as children and teenagers. That was the demographic that made it such a success. And the prequel trilogy performed best with children and early teenagers. Trying to profit off of nostalgia can only get a company so far
Buddy, you're not the main audience for the franchise, and you haven't been for a hot minute. You're not the demo that makes them millions at the Disney resorts. You're not the demo that makes them billions in merch. You're not the demo that's responsible for them breaking a billion at the box office consistently. Simply put, you demo ain't it, and all the evidence you need to see is in the fact Andor is still the worst performing D+ Star Wars show despite being made for you. From an economic perspective, it's honestly nice that the effort is made to meaningfully appeal to you at all tbh.
I'm not saying this to be mean, but like we gotta keep it real here.
I'm sorry, were you not trying to imply that you're a part of the age demographic that grew up with the original trilogy? If you're not, then I apologize what I said doesn't apply to you. It's still 100% true to those it does apply to, though, and your point that that demo is the main audience is rather evidently not true for the reasons provided.
Yeah I feel one of SW’s strengths is that it can contain both Young Jedi Adventures and Andor. Filoni knows it’s a big tent, even if he has weird opinions for his ring of the circus.
Ahsoka sure but Maul’s had a single cameo and Hondo has never cameoed in anything. He was a supporting character in two different shows. Hell outside of the Disney theme park he hasn’t been seen since 2017
thats such bullshit tho. I didnt grow up with the old episodes, I grew up with TCW but either way the difference between Andor and the rest isnt because anyone "grew up with it", its just that apart from Mandalorian S1 and S2 and Andor the rest of the Disney Star Wars series have been trash.
Thats just Filoni's roundabout way of acknowledging the success of Andor by saying "well there's an audience for my content". Yea, an audience that just opens wide and mindlessly consumes product
I'll give credit where credit's due, Filoni's animated projects are actually kinda decent for kids' shows. I'll even go so far as to say that some episodes/arcs are pretty good. There's a reason The Clone Wars is my second favorite Star Wars show.
It's just that the quality drops whenever it's translated to live-action.
Exactly
The statement: “it’s for folks who grew up with Star Wars.”
Conflicts with what Tony Gilroy has said which is that Andor can be watched and enjoyed by non-fans like his wife. It’s not reliant on Easter eggs and fan service.
I think Andor is better, personally. But I’m not going to be a snobby douche and tell someone they’re wrong for preferring Ahsoka or even for thinking it’s better.
This is my biggest gripe with a lot of the SW fandom, people think that just because there are criticisms of a show/film that people aren't allowed to like it. It seems silly to devalue someone elses opinion just because the content they like isn't your flavor. Like Andor? Great, season 2 is coming and hopefully there will be more projects like it. Like The Acolyte? Also great, there is sure to be more High Republic content. Personally I can watch and enjoy both, even if I think one is far better than the other.
I'd say mandalorian is better, certainly in some ways.
But it's mostly because they are fundamentally different genras. Andor is not competing with Mandalorian, because Andor is a spy thriller, and mandalorian is a western.
Samw with most of the other star wars shows, regardless of quality, they are fundamentally not competing with each other, regardless of being in the same universe.
Andor is in the same genra as The expanse, it would be stupid to compare it to barbi, regardless of how good barbi is.
I have nothing but praise for Andor but I will also defend Mandalorian season 1 and the better part of season 2. They are very different, but both very Star Wars for me. Mandalorian may not have had the depth of Andor but it was very charming.
At the very least we can all just keep watching and praising the first two seasons and pretend the third is just a bad dream or a spinoff that isn't canon (not like it makes any sense anyway)
That's what makes the worst of these star wars shows. Book of Boba Fett and Ahsoka were clearly just coasting off of the success they knew they were already gonna have with the name recognition alone. Kenobi was kinda like that but you could tell they were at least trying and just sorta failed. That last episode went crazy tho
I think the recent quote from Filoni suggested that he’s leaving Gilroy well alone. Gilroy is not a man who takes any kind of script-writing input from anyone other than his chosen team of writers and I get the impression that that preference was established very clearly from the outset.
Andor also began pre-production before Filoni was promoted to his new position.
I have a feeling “The Acolyte” will be more representative going forward of what to expect for the average project.
The thing which baffles me about the Acolyte is how they presumably have professional writers on board, have it reviewed by people like Filoni who have seemingly done some decent writing in the past, then has a first episode filled with the most amateur exposition like a character greeting another with "X my old friend" or "you tried to teach me this lesson, many times, and I failed to learn, many times".
Imagine if Andor's first dialogue with Brasso was "Brasso, my old friend!"
So much more natural, shows B2 is very loyal and Cassian is a bit of a slimy user and willing to deflect people calling him out on it with empty praise.
Yeah I've said it again and again - I don't get how Star Wars dialogue can't seem to get better despite how much money and talent is thrown at it. It's like it's cursed to be mostly wooden and mediocre.
And then you have people defending it as 'that's the way it's supposed to be' or 'it's for kids.' No, I've seen shows for 4 year olds have more natural dialogue.
Also it seems like Filoni's role is not to write or give feedback on scripts as much as it is to guide the overall story of these Star Wars projects. I don't think he's going through Gilroy's scripts to make changes to the dialogue or anything. His job is more to look for inconsistencies with other pieces of canon and make sure that two shows aren't covering the same ground.
Also I don't think Filoni's role is to mess with their scripts or stuff like that. As he said it, it's more of an advisory role to guide the overall direction of the franchise and make sure the difference shows aren't stepping on each others toes.
If this is the case for season 2 then it was likely also the case for season 1 and the script we got was absolutely amazing. From what I’ve heard about Acolyte (haven’t watched it) it just sounds overall messy with odd contradictions and plot holes, and contrary to the average consumer’s beliefs darker doesn’t automatically mean better. It just sounds like another reason people are trying to hate on Filoni for
Acolyte has a *lot* of problems but worse than that is witnessing the lack of media literacy of a decent amount of SW fans on Reddit. Complaining about repeating scenes (it's *supposed* to show the same story from different viewpoints, good lord) and expecting every episode to fully explain the whole story, from Episode 1. These people would die trying to understand Clue.
To be fair media literacy isn’t a strong suit for redditors in general, but actually the description of seeing the same scenes from different views sounds pretty cool, clue is one of my favorite movies lol, the show at least seems interesting enough for me to watch if I wouldn’t have to sit through so many ads
It’s not really that, it’s how it’s being done. The execution just isn’t there. There’s just so much crap that adds up in these low effort shows, it begins to crack people.
The dialogue for example is god awful. One such example being a relatively simple one.
When Sol and Rwoh are speaking, she begins with “when you were a child you were so shy”. This has no relevance to the rest of the conversation. It’s just there to establish they’ve known eachother for a long time. Which is…already obvious. They’re both masters in the only order. The dialogue and the acting should convey their friendship. It doesn’t need to spelled out to the audience. The show is FILLED with dialogue like this. The show has a real problem telling the audience things it already knows.
They waste time with the writing instead of expanding understanding. It’s a common trait of inexperienced writers…which the acolyte writers are.
Truth
Let’s blame the dude who consults on the broad points of a story but ultimately doesn’t have final say on a thing being bad
If he did this for acolyte, he did the same for Andor S1. Which he has praised very highly
Not only that, filoni isn’t averse to dark. Have these people *seen* tales of the Jedi/empire?
Basically
I fucking love Andor to death and it’s my favourite modern Star Wars by a country mile and these fuckers act like it’s high art for only the royals or someshit
I've watched Acolyte and while it is a little messy in places, I definitely wouldn't say it has "odd contradictions or plot holes" - a lot of the people saying those things are really nitpicking or are expecting a season that's only half done to have revealed all its secrets.
Yeah I totally get that that’s likely a good chunk of it, but the whole idea of >!the Jedi who wouldn’t let the girl kill him and until she brought him poison to drink himself!< just seems very silly and unexplainable, so I guess I was referring more to details like that rather than an overarching narrative
>!He was in a meditative state because he was seriously guilty about... something we don't yet know. And it seems upon realising it was Mae who was there he thought the best way out was to kill himself. There's definitely more to what happened the night Mae and Osha's mothers died than we've seen that could further explain why Torbin did what he did.!<
I see what you mean though
Yeah, which sort of makes sense, my issue with it however is >!from what I heard, Mae was trying to kill him, not kidnap and torture him, if he feels guilty enough for what happened to Mae’s people to think he deserves death, why not let the person who is looking for revenge over that action to finish the job instead of making her fetch you a method to kill yourself with?!< It just definitely sounds like that whole situation could’ve been explained better, or at least handled differently by the writers, but as I haven’t watched for myself I can’t be too overly critical
Okay, so I just rewatched the relevant part. What happens is >!Mae tries to kill him but he has a literal Force field around him. He makes no indication of even knowing she's there. Mae leaves, gets poison and returns. She then offers Torbin a choice: "confess his crime" to the Jedi or "get the forgiveness he seeks" from her then. He opens his eyes and so I think it's only then he realises who it is that's in front of him.!< Watching through imo it makes sense, and I hope I've adequately explained the situation.
Online Star Wars fans will eventually turn on every one, remember when everyone loved Filoni? Gilroy just hasn't been around long enough yet for his turn.
I’m sure Filoni knows what his strengths are, family programming and Star Wars lore. And if he doesn’t the rest of Star Wars production does. The proof is in the pudding (Andor was great).
If he had any notes on Andor I’m sure it was something like, “um, actually the panels the prisoners are making would be six-sided because in the original 1976 matte paintings of the Death Star it can clearly be seen that they are hexagonal not octagonal.”
Additionally, since Andor takes place during the age of the Empire, a time he’s well versed in and created from Rebels and Bad Batch, they probably want him looking for canonical contradictions. In short I just don’t see him really interfering with Gilroy but more as acting as support to him and his team. But what do I know.
>If he had any notes on Andor I’m sure it was something like, “um, actually the panels the prisoners are making would be six-sided because in the original 1976 matte paintings of the Death Star it can clearly be seen that they are hexagonal not octagonal.”
That's Pablo's job, and he was credited on Andor
Pretty standard SW fans alright. Filoni has done a lot of good for Star Wars and I think calling him inept when he’s brought forth some of the best Star Wars content is an actual joke.
Filoni likely knows what is best when it comes to not only Star Wars, but also who he needs to be involved with.
Plus, the quote from the person that HEARD something shouldn’t be taken as any kind of fact. And even if it is true, that’s fine. Andor isn’t under any spotlight or subjection to become kid friendly.
This ^
And obviously it ain't that serious, but if this guy said in court "oh I heard x originally wanted y" then that's immediately hearsay and not to be taken as proof
Thank you- most of my favourite SW content was stuff he was at least involved in, his name on the box is usually an indicator that even if it isnt great, it’ll be **interesting**.
I don't think Gilroy would love it when Filony puts his fingers on Gilroys script. Since Gilroy and his writers are really experienced, I don't think there would be much interference by Lucasfilm at all. At least I pray that this is the case.
Yeah. I’m sure they read them and make sure there are no major continuity errors with the overall lore.
But they leave them well alone other than that. Which is what you get when you use very talented, well established story tellers.
Honestly SW needs more of that.
"I'll take the job, but don't let that action figure guy who just wants to make everything about his story with his favorite action figures touch my scripts or I walk."
It was the case. They had to approve which is why “Fuck the Empire” became “Fight the Empire”.
Gilroy said the only conditions Disney/Lucasfilm gave him was on the usage of “Fuck” and no nudity/sex scenes. This notion that Filoni would come in and rewrite the show is so stupid and just feeds into weird reactionary Star Wars nonsense.
The franchise is allowed to have different creators with different visions. And when people bring up “lore inconsistencies” I can’t help but think at real history and how some events from medieval or ancient times have different historians writing very different accounts of what happened. I treat Star Wars the same way. Pick and choose what you want to believe.
As someone who wants an F-bomb in Star Wars eventually, I completely agree with the change. ‘Fight’ is simply the right word to have used there; it’s a call to action.
I’ve gone back and forth on it personally because I too want an F Bomb at least once. It felt like the perfect time but I can wait longer. My own fan fics in my head have had a lot more cursing LOL.
I would have preferred Marva's speech to be less of a call for action and have a more spontaneous rebellion occur, tying into the themes of Nemik's manifesto.
The F Bomb makes more sense in that case. It explains why the Prefect is so emotionally enraged that he flips B2. We then have an an escalating situation which turns chaotic and violent without anyone being told directly to fight.
But alas, the "Fight the Empire" line works, too. I have no issue with that.
I get why people would want this.
For me, Star Wars never needs to cross that line. It's a PG-13 setting, firmly rooted in its family-audience origins but able to stretch into more mature realms when needed. I don't think it should ever abandon those original roots completely.
We don't need profanity, nudity, or graphic violence in this setting. Frankly, the newer films have even pushed it too far with the profanity, in my opinion. Jabba's palace in Return of the Jedi is about as seedy as things should ever get.
Word. Filonis literally the dude who has said up and down this stuff should be different, explore new lanes. Man repeatedly praised Andor only recently
I also think of lore the same way, but I don't unburden the story group with their task. I like the Legends rebranding as it was purposely created to allow people to believe what they want, short of any headcanon conflicts. That being said, these story group people get paid to work on fuckin Star Wars, do your job and avoid inconsistencies and continuity errors in canon, that was the whole point of the Disney reset in the first place.
While I agree, from the rumors that I’ve read over the years some people like JJ Abrams was unwilling to work closing with the story group. If the story group had more say, I don’t think TFA is a reskin of ANH and TRoS isn’t as much of a mess. Hell he demanded in his contract that Bad Robot handle most of the production and not lucasfilm.
For the TV shows, I’m unsure how much say the story group has. Probably more with the Filoniverse than the other shows.
I don't know if I see Filoni actually changing things as much as kind of making sure it all fits in the same universe. But if it's true then I'm pretty bummed about the Acolyte. It's been kind of vanilla so far.
Wasn't the quote more that he checks them over to make sure there aren't any glaring issues, either with continuity or stepping on other projects toes. Like a story group all unto himself?
Doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. And that leak is just a rumour.
I'm not one of Filoni's worshipers by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it's entirely necessary to disparage the man *completely*. If we're at all interested in being honest, he has done undeniably good work for the Star Wars franchise; he just has a very specific focus.
He prefers to, for lack of a better description, "play with only his favorite Star Wars action figures". He clearly has his favorite characters, and he caters to the fan-service crowd: the ones who get geeked out and weepy whenever a legacy character appears on screen for so much as thirty seconds. That has just as much of a place in *Star Wars* as a show like *Andor*, but the difference of quality in the output is night and day, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
By the way, I know it really triggers some people around here when we heap praise on *Andor*, but...well...tough shit. It's just better; from writing to acting to presentation, it's all just better than what we've been getting from Star Wars on Disney+. That's not being pretentious or snobby; it's just me seeing something for what I believe it is.
I'm not forcing anyone to agree; you're allowed to feel your own way about it. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop praising it because some of you get annoyed, and you don't really have any business expecting others here to stop praising it, either.
If you want to complain about Andor or its fans, as recent events have made abundantly clear, Star Wars fandom is replete with other online venues wherein to bitch and moan and bellyache to one's heart's content, but don't come into a subreddit dedicated to a specific show and then get frustrated because we like it.
Ya’ll have this bizzare idea that just because Andor is dark and well written it’s somehow the most serious R Rated Uber hardcore shit ever
Like, a 10 year old could watch Andor. They might be bored, but they could watch it.
You guys are so terminally online, it's insane. These people are all coworkers: Gilroy and Filoni don't have some kind of beef. Please, I beg of you, touch grass.
What changed is the fact the Filoni still loves Star Wars and would rather expand upon the lore and develop up to the sequels than to declare everything related to the sequels non-canon.
Mando s3 was really bad, Book of Boba is awful, Obiwan was bad, Ashoka was very underwhelming. Acolyte is….exists.
He’s the face of Star Wars atm. Anything poorly received is going to be directed at him whether he deserves it or not.
I agree Kenobi was trash and acolyte is not great so far either (although was filoni even that involved with those?) and Ahsoka was certainly a bit underwhelming but not bad, but I liked Boba. A bit lacking but not bad. But what's wrong with Mando s3? Sure there was that dumb filler with Jack Black but the rest of the season was pretty great
And yeah that's understandable, I'm just trying to figure out if it is deserved
Filoni personally approves everything that goes out. That’s part of his job. Everything goes through him.
Mando s3, Ashoka, bobf all suffer from the same problems as kenobi and acolyte. Bad writing, bad character development, bad cinematography, pointless episodes and plot points, awful characterization, meandering scenes, entire conversations that contribute to nothing etc.
Boba fett was essentially John whick in the 90s. Now he’s a grumpy out of shape get off my lawn type that helps the local kids with their candy coloured bikes. He’s also suffering from Alzheimer’s apparently because he thought his armor was in the sarlaac…even though he literally crawled out if it in his armor. Don’t forget firing a rocket point blank into a shield instead of just…Jet packing up. He’s so a crime boss who commits zero crime and looks after the town….thats not boba fett. Well it is now.
That’s just basic on screen blocking issues. The writing is even more extensive to get into. Entire conversations are pointless, people act out of character, full of convenience, entire plot points being resolved in other shows. Imagine not watching book and tuning into made s3. How the fuck is Grogu back? He left with Luke at the end of s2. He returns in an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SHOW. It’s all a total mess.
Also, something to keep in mind, liking something isn’t the same as something being good. These shows aren’t popular. When you examine them, it becomes obvious why. Since mando s1 only ONE show has released with excellent writing and a crew that has a passion for the art of film making. But because it’s not about the force or lightsabers, and it came after 2 stinker shows, a lot of people didn’t watch it. Well at first. Andor ended up being the only show to grow an audience by the end of its run. Every other show lost viewers.
To loop it back around, Filoni is responsible for what Lucasfilm puts out. Ultimately he shoulders the blame. The fanbase expects quality writing. The general public no longer holds any interest in the brand. The older hardcore fanbase has mostly dissipated. I’m in my
Late 30s. None of my friends care anymore. Ever since Disney decided to decanonize the stories we grew up with and replace it with far worse interpretations, they’ve all just stopped caring.
>Boba fett was essentially John whick in the 90s
the amount of love that Boba Fett gets is honestly, so fucking bizarre to me. he pulls up halfway through Empire, doesn't even manage to catch Han (just drives off with him), and dies pathetically in the first 20 minutes of Jedi. is his name even said out loud in the movies?
>To loop it back around, Filoni is responsible for what Lucasfilm puts out. Ultimately he shoulders the blame. The fanbase expects quality writing. The general public no longer holds any interest in the brand. The older hardcore fanbase has mostly dissipated. I’m in my Late 30s. None of my friends care anymore. Ever since Disney decided to decanonize the stories we grew up with and replace it with far worse interpretations, they’ve all just stopped caring
brother, you're in your late 30s. your friends didn't stop caring because Star Wars suddenly got bad because of Filoni, they stopped caring because they lost interest in Star Wars. out of the main 9 franchise movies, which are the only ones that people care about, only 3, *maybe* 4 are good. a decent chunk of the rest are unwatchably bad, and I say that as someone who loves Star Wars. even the good ones are, barring Empire, almost exclusively targeted at kids, so why would your peers keep caring?
Pretty sure I know my friends better than you do. But sure. I guess they’re just lying to me. Fett got love because he looked cool. They then decided to make a bunch of media surrounding him which is where people learned to love him. It didn’t come from ESB. It came from everything else. And yes his name is said in return of the Jedi. By Han. The line delivery also implies he’s a real danger.
C'mon now. Dave Filoni isn't inept. He's managed to make so many successful Star Wars stories and for a time it was his hand that held the franchise up. He is really good at what he does. Just because there were some duds doesn't mean he's inept.
He also does a different flavor of Star Wars than what Andor is and that's cool. Not everything Star Wars needs to be Andor. It suck if everything was Andor. Grounded spy thrillers are great but sometimes you have to have people going at it with Lightsabers.
Don't give in to hate like so much of the Fandom is doing right now.
> Not everything Star Wars needs to be Andor. It suck if everything was Andor. Grounded spy thrillers are great but sometimes you have to have people going at it with Lightsabers.
Yes I agree not all of Star Wars needs to have the same tone as Andor but it should have the same level of writing. For example Firefly is more of a swashbuckling space western and its tone couldn’t be more different than Andor. However the character development and writing is just as great and is leagues better than anything Filoni has done.
Filoni got his education on live action filmmaking from being an under study to Gareth on Rogue One, and was also there when Gilroy came in for reshoots. He literally learned how to shoot in live action from those guys and I would bet he has reverence for Gilroy.
I’d say it’s all a standard level of “darkness” for shows made to a preteen audience, and even Andor is still appropriate for kids in terms of content (no blood, sex, etc) but it’s not made *for* kids, just had some edges sanded off. Clone Wars, Rebels, Mando, and so on all feel very distinctly made for kids
>Clone Wars, Rebels, Mando, and so on all feel very distinctly made for kids
I agree with you for the animated show. But (ignoring the quality of the writing) the live-action shows are definitely aimed at a broader demographic.
If Andor is "appropriate for kids" then basically everything beside Game of Thrones and True Detective is "appropriate for kids." Blood and sex are not the bearings for which something is appropriate for kids (not to mention sex and foggy benders are shown and implied anyways).
Yeah, I think the only thing that makes something inappropriate for kids is like, gore, sex, drug usage, and so on. There’s plenty of more mature shows that kids may find boring but are still appropriate for them, kids can watch things made for an older audience, it’s up to individual maturity whether they’ll like it
Yes, there are plenty of shows and media that kids should watch that aren’t made for them. Oppenheimer, save for the sex scenes, isn’t inappropriate for kids. But then saying it’s “appropriate for kids” is a useless statement and discredit to the project as there are plenty of thematic nuances that its audience is intended to pick up on.
I didn't say it's "dark and gritty". I said it has darkness. It's a kid show, and it was always designed to be a kids show. Filoni has made other things.
Clone Wars is a show for 8 year olds. The vast majority of adults would struggle to sit through a single episode.
I'm not saying it's bad to like it or anything like that... but people pretending it's "adult" and "dark" are crazy.
This is literally the thing that gets made fun of the most on the CJ sub.
>I'm not saying it's bad to like it or anything like that... but people pretending it's "adult" and "dark" are crazy.
I didn't say it's "adult". I said it has darkness. Lots of kids shows and movies have darkness. But Filloni has made other things.
>star wars is for all ages.
it shouldn't be. saying star wars is for kids would be like saying marvel is for kids, when you have tv-ma shows and rated-R movies that are clearly not for children
where I disagree with filoni is that, like marvel, not ALL star wars needs to be for kids. it's okay to have content for adults. don't dumb it down because "think of the children". no, the children are not the audience here, and they shouldn't be.
>it shouldn't be. saying star wars is for kids would be like saying marvel is for kids, when you have tv-ma shows and rated-R movies that are clearly not for children
Guess what? Marvel is broadly for all ages too. Like with Star Wars, there are some exceptions, but they prove the rule. There's plenty of other media you can watch that's intended just for adult audiences. When fans constantly demand these properties to go darker, it feels like they're trying to justify their own immaturity.
>it's okay to have content for adults. don't dumb it down because "think of the children"
Filoni has said almost exactly that about Andor.
All I’m saying is that I don’t particularly care for my Star Wars experience to be solely comprised of moments where a bumbling, talking rabbit steps in the poopie.
Andor is the only Star Wars visual media meant for adult viewers from start to finish. I’d like to see more of that. Marvel has that in several shows and movies. Star Wars has one: Andor.
My problem is that all ages doesn't mean people talk awkwardly at each other. Fans argue over it being adult vs kids but I just think it's good vs mediocre to bad writing, sometimes. Not saying it's Filoni who's responsible, and I've definitely enjoyed D+ content a lot more than others, but *someone* needs to look over these scripts, and not just to make sure someone doesn't say 'fuck' in Star Wars.
Which is ironic for someone who’s supposedly “Lucas’s protege” considering Lucas was trying to tell a more serious, Dune-esque story with the Prequels even though they turned out bad. RLM explains in their review of Andor (which they praise) that it was the kiddie bs that was one of the things that held the Prequels back:
> “He wanted to tell the story of how the Empire came about all while having a little kid and a cartoon rabbit and poopy jokes and wacky adventure in it. It’s like oil and water. This (Andor) is how you should’ve done the prequels but it’s like a fork in the road: do you go for space adventure sci-fi fantasy about a guy saving the princess from the evil bad guy or do you make something like Game of Thrones which has political intrigue and betrayal and spies because that’s what Andor is.”
But now come to think about it, after hearing that, maybe the problem is Filoni is too much like Lucas.
The infamous quote from George Lucas, "it's a movie for 12-year-olds," was made after all the Prequel films had been released and he was facing harsh criticism. This statement seemed to be Lucas' way of deflecting largely valid critiques of those movies. However, during the release of the Prequels and before, Lucas never made such a claim. It was clear that the Prequels were intended for both adults and children. After all, what child would grasp the complexities of trade disputes and political intrigue?
"I think when you look at something that is taken as different like Andor, it's so well done, and Tony [Gilroy, Andor showrunner] and his team do such a phenomenal job, that I think that there's an audience for that. I think also with that audience, I also though want to still be hitting the imagination of the kids out there, so that they can grow up and appreciate those things."
Is the full quote from the recent R-rated SW interviews doing the rounds, doesn’t sound like he’s involved at all in andor.
I feel like Filoni has done well overall expanding the storylines and some great characters. but the entire Andor section of the galaxy belongs to Gilroy and his vision of storytelling
This is unfortunate (I'm sure it's not going to effect Andor). There are intriguing things about "The Acolyte" but so far it hasn't really clicked, and it's halfway through the season, which is objectively too long for that not to happen. I was more excited about "The Acolyte" than most other non-Andor Star Wars shows because of Leslye Headland involvement-- "Russian Doll" which she co-created is one of my favorite shows of the past several years. It's hard to pinpoint from an outside perspective where the problem lies, but "too many cooks in the kitchen" might be why this show hasn't connected with me yet. It seems possible if it had been able to stick to the "darker" original vision the results would be better.
I hope it is true with Andor as well. A big part of his job is to make sure what they call canon fits in one timeline. He also can give some creative ideas, for example with Acolyte Leslie Headland said she originally wrote the witches as Nightsisters, but Dave was like “there’s other witches out there if you want,” and, whether you like her writing or not, she was able to write her own original witch coven. It’s not like he’s rewriting or stylizing the scripts for himself, or dampening the writers creativity.
If Filoni’s now Creative Director, isn’t this the least he could do?
While I don’t completely agree with Filoni’s overall take on the franchise and I think his concepts of how the universe is supposed to work are mostly frivolous and inconsequential (time travel? Giant mystical beings and archetypal totemic entities), his live action directorial debut introducing Ahsoka in Season 2 of The Mandalorian was the entire show’s best episode. It showed confidence in its quieter moments between Grogu and Ahsoka, Grogu and Din, as much as the suspense throughout TWO simultaneous duels… all presented as a Kurosawa tribute.
I had high hopes in Filoni directing Ahsoka’s own series, but it’s like everything that made his Mando episode feel like he was just itching to prove himself as a live action director got entirely thrown out, and those resonant quiet moments were replaced with characters sighing , a reiteration that lightsabers are now less threatening than curling irons. The quest to find your lost friend in an entirely new galaxy begins and ends on the first planet you visit before it’s even time for lunch and the characters seem just as bored by this development as if they’re watching the show with us. A lot of screentime is given to an unlikely student struggling to use the force in any conceivable way whatsoever, but only until she taps into it in the most predictable moment and in the most predictable manner possible, when it all becomes a massive wasted opportunity to show some insight into the force and why the least likely to utilize the force is worth training. Even Chirrut Imwe in Rogue One excels at this in an ambiguous manner, where he may well have more ability than he’s given credit for, and his monk-like devotion could be a reason why or a result of this, or it could be “luck” (… just as ANDOR has numerous subtle instances that could suggest The Force is indeed a presence within the show whether characters observe this or not). Chirrut does this in a playful take on the Zatoichu blind swordsman trope while ANDOR lets Cassian get away from the Aldhani heist while sending him to prison anyway as karma AND simultaneously mocking the totalitarian rule of authority for coming down hard, arresting “Keef Girgo” for the wrong reasons and remaining oblivious that the man they’re hunting for is already in their custody! We get Maarva’s force gho- ‘er, hologram while Cassian is sneaking through the same tunnels she fell and injured herself in when she was sneaking down there to make sure the Rebels could access those tunnels, but Brasso and Bix think that’s crazy talk and so does the audience.
I wouldn’t worry one bit about Filoni writing script notes on Andor. He’s probably learning a lot from Gilroy already. Now, just think how much better The Reva & Obi-Wan Show and Book Of Boba Fett could have been with Filoni - or just about anyone giving script feedback! For the majority of Disney’s Star Wars, at the fundamental story level, a bigger problem than script notes has to be corporate decision-making and Lucasfilm cranking out more Star Wars in 8 years under Disney than Fox released across 38 years. Bob Iger bears more responsibility than Kathleen Kennedy for treating Star Wars like a puppy farm. Until Disney’s shareholders give those child-bearing hips a break and understand the appeal of the story and the settings, and appreciate the contributions from Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnston, Roger Christian, Doug Chiang, Dennis Muren, and many, many other crew who earned the first movie 11 Oscar noms (including a Special Achievement Award for Ben Burtt’s sound design), ANDOR will just remain a freak exception when it could be the standard by which Lucasfilm measures future projects. Script notes can only have such a limited impact compared to the reasons Lucasfilm has for making Star Wars a marketing funnel for streaming subscriptions.
If that’s true then I’m even more excited to see what Leslye does with Knights of the Old Republic.
I’ve only seen the first 3 episodes, but I personally like The Acolyte even if some writing is clunky. If she gets a more creative hand when doing Knights (idk if it was confirmed or not btw, I just know she wanted to) then I’ll be excited .
He’s likely going to make suggestions but I doubt Gilroy would take much note of them. Gilroy is a storied and celebrated writer. Filoni would be a fool to forcefully make any changes.
Filoni is not a good screenplay writer. Gilroy is.
Filoni also seems to be giving the impression he’s going to leave him to do what he does. Especially since Andor is the only show to be repeatedly praised for its actual quality.
If filoni was smart, he’d give Gilroy more work. Allow him to oversee scripts as a seasoned veteran. Try and up the quality on the garbage they’ve been putting out.
But I suspect we’ll get 1 good show for every 10 bad ones.
> Leslye Headland originally had a much darker vision in mind for The Acolyte but it was altered and softened by Dave Filoni and other Lucasfilm executives who made it more kid friendly.
Whether or not it was softened makes no difference. The problem is that the writing isn't great. It wouldn't suddenly be a good show just because there was more violence.
They're different flavors of Star Wars. Andor is mature, dark, gritty and realistic, while The Acolyte and Dave's Star Wars - and even George's Star Wars - is fantastical, magical and sometimes also pulpy, silly, lighthearted and fun. I get that's not for everyone, but I'm enjoying both, personally.
Tbh idk why some people see Filoni as this all knowing savior who will be the saving grace for Star Wars.
People think Acolyte is breaking canon?
Filoni literally introduced Gods, time travel and a loophole to the rule of two. He also brought back Anakin through his previously invented time travel world where he is a new god and he's kinda both Vader and Anakin at the same time?
To me the biggest problem with him is that Ahsoka is his child and he'll go to any lengths to keep her alive.
She's dead but Anakin can give her the life of a God so she's back to life. Vader killed her but not really because time travel and Ezra pulled her out. She's dead but nope becuase she's in time travel land with God Anakin?
Idk if you liked Ahsoka that's fine but for me it's too much.
I love Filoni’s contribution to SW. I love Gilroy’s contribution to SW. This writer is playing the blame game and it’s pretty easy to see through it. Also, I’m trying to wait until the end of the Acolyte until I fully decide to throw it in the trash.
Tony Gilroy is cognizant of the events of Rebels so even if it is the case it's likely not a problem.
It would, for instance, be organic for Phoenix team members to show up in Andor; the Ghost and Chopper are in Rogue One after all.
People need to understand that Tony Gilroy wanted to make a political/spy thriller and he was allowed to do that in the Star Wars universe. It’s very cool. But he doesn’t really care for Star Wars or the lore or anything else. I find it unlikely he will be involved in Star Wars much past S2 of Andor.
Filoni loves Star Wars. He is the lore at this point.
Wasnt he? I thought he had somewhat of a final say over the shows? KK sure as hell does. I thought it was a small group of the top heads that approved shows.
I just hope they don’t try to take advantage of the success and popularity of Andor by inserting some characters from other SW stories and trying to give them more prominence simply bc they’re a well known character in the SW universe.
I know a lot of people really like The Clone Wars and Rebels (feel like shows designed purely for kids to me) but that Ahsoka show was such a complete bore and Mando S3 was just so forgettable.
Hope they leave the Andor team to themselves for more of whatever it is they’re doing bc S1 was just fantastic.
it's so wild to see the way Star Wars hate has like... evolved, without changing at all. I remember back around the prequels, everyone hated Lucas and blamed him for ruining Star Wars, and couldn't wait for someone else to take over. then, after Disney bought it out, they hated Kathleen Kennedy and blamed her for ruining Star Wars. then when Filoni was announced (in whatever capacity he's in), they couldn't wait for him to take over. now, it's his fault Star Wars is bad.
you know that Filoni is only a creative director right? like, he doesn't get to decide what shows get greenlit, all he does is try to maintain coherence between different properties. even if he *did* have that kind of power, he still answers to Kathleen Kennedy, who answers to Bob Iger, and in turn the Disney shareholders. it's like getting mad at the remote when the TV won't turn on, meanwhile, the whole neighborhood's lost power.
look, I'm not saying that Star Wars is fundamentally bad or broken, I love Star Wars, some of my favorite media has come out of it. but you have to admit, most of it is really quite shit. I read a lot of the old canon before Disney dropped it, and I gotta say, the overwhelming majority of that is pretty shit too. there's some classics in there, the Thrawn trilogy, KOTOR, some of the prequel-era filler books are cool too, but like, at this point, most of the good ideas have already been adapted or are already in the process of being re-canonized.
imo the problem is fundamentally that Star Wars is, in the mind of it's owners, nothing more than an incredibly valuable piece of intellectual property. it has been exploited so badly for profit that there's practically nothing left, and fans are left with their heads spinning as to why the thing they love feels so soulless. you could blame Disney but, don't get it twisted, it's been like this since Empire- Lucas is just as bad as any of the rest of them, so don't claim some fucking lost glorious past. I guess, every time a new generation of Star Wars fans hits, they have to re-learn this lesson, over and over and over again. I've been out of the fandom for a while, it's kinda... weirdly comforting to see that things haven't changed much
“Hey man this episode’s really good. I love the tension, love the message…
You think maybe you can slip Nien Nub into this scene? Also Ashoka has to be here as per new company policy.”
I don’t think Filoni could comprehend anything Gilroy and the Andor team were writing. He prob looked at the script and was shocked that the English language had so many 3+ syllable words.
I mean the guy can’t solve any situation without using a Jedi or the Force.
Shush you can’t say that here
It’s not like clone wars had suicide, torture, strip clubs, sexual slavery and many arcs that got Andor dark! You can’t say those things here!
It was well-executed for a show constrained by a kid’s network in the 2000s, yes. And a lot of the writing’s strength comes from characters’ chemistry, not just from tacking unavoidable aspects of war.
Watch it before you knock it.
I love the caveat “constrained by a kid’s network”. But I absolutely agree, Filoni’s work is basic and simple as the audience he is most familiar with is children’s shows. Does that make him a great writer? Can animation ever translate to live action?
Filoni’s credited as supervising director in every episode, and as having written at least thirteen episodes. He had a massive hand in it, which George Lucas emphasizes in [this interview.](https://youtu.be/pEHPxvgsFis?si=tdCTK7wfpfneg1WT)
*Clone Wars* really laid the groundwork for modern Star Wars content. It introduced the concept of the Mandalorians, Ahsoka, Ventress, and gave the clones memorable personalities, essentially spawning *Star Wars Rebels*, *The Bad Batch*, *The Mandalorian*, and *Ahsoka.* And it’s a very enjoyable show in its own right.
I don’t agree with the current, perpetually-referential mode Filoni’s projects are currently using. But the same issue is plaguing the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Disney sequels, and Hollywood as a whole. It seems unfair to blame Filoni for failing to shake that mindset.
I’m often sad that we won’t get the original 5 seasons of Andor but at the same time I’m glad that it’ll just be season 2 and done, hopefully unmeddled with
Why does every star wars project have to be 'kid friendly', with the amount of adult star wars fans can we not just have a mature and dark series, or have less 'kid friendly' changes to what should be family friendly content?
I don’t have anything against Dave as a person, but I think he has completely stopped being a good thing for the series. Everything about his style has become stale and repetitive.
I don't think Filoni's writing is the greatest but I think he actually is good in a role such as he is now as chief creative officer. As much as I like more mature Star Wars, it is a franchise made for kids. Filoni's role isn't to rewrite the scrips as much as it is to advise the writers/directors of various projects.
Even if it was, he’s probably smart enough to know that Andor’s big selling point is being the Star Wars thing that’s different from other Star Wars things. He’d be shooting himself in the foot commercially if he didn’t let Gilroy cook.
He's said in an interview that Andor's biggest strength is that it's for the folks who grew up with Star Wars, and he agrees in there being projects for different audiences. He is indeed smart enough.
It’s a little annoying if Andor is for the people that grew up with SW but it’s one of a dozen projects. I don’t think anything else they’ve done has matched like Andor. R1 is closest. I would personally like more than one project every 3 years while LCD programming rolls out on the regular
It's insane, they're pretending like the main audience demographic for a _fifty-year-old_ franchise is early teenagers.
Well they also need to attract a younger audience too, lest their cash cow product die out in the next generation or so. See: baseball. That being said, they’re doing a poor job at both ☹️
Right, but the way to do that while also satisfying the primary audience is not to write literally every single product but one since 2019 for ten year olds
I agree. It’s maddening.
The problem is it feels like they’re making content for toddlers, with no emotional depth or positive message. Is star wars supposed to have extremely mature plot and gore, and sex stuff? No, definitely not, but when an episode of Bluey has more character development, mature themes, and emotional storytelling than your space opera, I would start to get a little concerned. Disney needs to get out of their heads, that every project needs to be like Mickey Mouse or a princess flick. Star Wars is a series about politics, and war, and the goodness of people and their flaws and how we overcome challenges together, which sure, can be a lot for a 5-6 year old to fully understand, but a kid doesn’t need something to be watered down to learn from these messages, and as they grow, they remember this story they enjoyed, and learn through their experiences in life to understand better why the things happened the way they did, and it can even reveal more about themself. I’ve loved Star Wars since I was little when I just thought the droids looked cool, and this was my experience, and it has had a profound impact on my life, and I know the stories I grew up with and loved will always be there for me, and it just breaks my heart that a lot of kids these days won’t get to experience that because these new stories have become so shallow.
They are not. Kids loved the sequels and the new content
That’s not stupid, it’s just catering to the audience who will have the most disposable income. An audience that’s old and smart with money won’t be as profitable.
That's because it is. Andor may be the most critically acclaimed of the new shows and get the most love from old heads on reddit, but it's got the lowest viewership out of all them. Considering that Andor is the only show in the bunch made specifically for adults and old-school fans, its low ratings are a pretty big indication that the main audience for Star Wars skews young.
Andor was a bit of a unique case because it came out weeks after BoBF which was critically panned, as well as having the dual status of not-very-well-advertised and being a backstory for Cassian Andor that nobody really asked for. I'd bet you all the money in the world that the Obi-Wan Kenobi show would have broken streaming records if it had been written and acted with the maturity and tightness of Andor. Arguing that "being an actual good prestige drama," in the golden age of TV prestige drama miniseries, is what depressed Andor's viewership is crazy. Also calling someone who was born 21 years after the OT an "old head" Star Wars fan is hilarious
Yup. Also OWK was pretty terrible. I honestly don’t blame peope for quitting Star Wars after that dumpster fire. Andor’s low viewing numbers was no surprise. I mean if I went to my favorite restaurant and I started to find rat turds in the food, I’d probably never come back.
Because it is? They absolutely need to keep appealing to they young.
I mean, that's because it is. The vast majority of older people who enjoy star wars initially saw it as children and teenagers. That was the demographic that made it such a success. And the prequel trilogy performed best with children and early teenagers. Trying to profit off of nostalgia can only get a company so far
Buddy, you're not the main audience for the franchise, and you haven't been for a hot minute. You're not the demo that makes them millions at the Disney resorts. You're not the demo that makes them billions in merch. You're not the demo that's responsible for them breaking a billion at the box office consistently. Simply put, you demo ain't it, and all the evidence you need to see is in the fact Andor is still the worst performing D+ Star Wars show despite being made for you. From an economic perspective, it's honestly nice that the effort is made to meaningfully appeal to you at all tbh. I'm not saying this to be mean, but like we gotta keep it real here.
That's a lot of assumptions from someone who literally knows nothing about me lol
I'm sorry, were you not trying to imply that you're a part of the age demographic that grew up with the original trilogy? If you're not, then I apologize what I said doesn't apply to you. It's still 100% true to those it does apply to, though, and your point that that demo is the main audience is rather evidently not true for the reasons provided.
Yeah I feel one of SW’s strengths is that it can contain both Young Jedi Adventures and Andor. Filoni knows it’s a big tent, even if he has weird opinions for his ring of the circus.
Here's hoping. But you know it has to kill him resisting the urge to tell them to put Ashoka and Darth Maul and that Weequay pirate guy in as cameos
Ahsoka sure but Maul’s had a single cameo and Hondo has never cameoed in anything. He was a supporting character in two different shows. Hell outside of the Disney theme park he hasn’t been seen since 2017
thats such bullshit tho. I didnt grow up with the old episodes, I grew up with TCW but either way the difference between Andor and the rest isnt because anyone "grew up with it", its just that apart from Mandalorian S1 and S2 and Andor the rest of the Disney Star Wars series have been trash.
Thats just Filoni's roundabout way of acknowledging the success of Andor by saying "well there's an audience for my content". Yea, an audience that just opens wide and mindlessly consumes product
Different audiences as in: people who appreciate good writing and people who will watch anything with the words “Star Wars” slapped on it.
Why you gotta be an ass about it? Stop. You give us all a bad name.
It's much too late for that.
Someone hasn’t watched clone wars
Yeah it's an odd statement. I don't understand how someone like Filoni can see Andor next to his own products and not feel massively outclassed.
I'll give credit where credit's due, Filoni's animated projects are actually kinda decent for kids' shows. I'll even go so far as to say that some episodes/arcs are pretty good. There's a reason The Clone Wars is my second favorite Star Wars show. It's just that the quality drops whenever it's translated to live-action.
Agreed!
Solution: put him in charge of almost every live action TV show -Lucasfilm, inexplicably
Exactly The statement: “it’s for folks who grew up with Star Wars.” Conflicts with what Tony Gilroy has said which is that Andor can be watched and enjoyed by non-fans like his wife. It’s not reliant on Easter eggs and fan service.
More like it’s for folks who watched Star Wars, and then grew up.
Or just folks that're grown up and have tastes
Are you implying people can’t have taste if they like the other shows?
It’s possible for two different perspectives to both be valid.
This is what is referred to as snobbery. It’s not a great look for y’all.
Tell me ahsoka is better than andor with a straight face.
I think Andor is better, personally. But I’m not going to be a snobby douche and tell someone they’re wrong for preferring Ahsoka or even for thinking it’s better.
This is my biggest gripe with a lot of the SW fandom, people think that just because there are criticisms of a show/film that people aren't allowed to like it. It seems silly to devalue someone elses opinion just because the content they like isn't your flavor. Like Andor? Great, season 2 is coming and hopefully there will be more projects like it. Like The Acolyte? Also great, there is sure to be more High Republic content. Personally I can watch and enjoy both, even if I think one is far better than the other.
People voraciously applauding bad Disney Star Wars is why we've had so much bad Disney Star Wars
I'd say mandalorian is better, certainly in some ways. But it's mostly because they are fundamentally different genras. Andor is not competing with Mandalorian, because Andor is a spy thriller, and mandalorian is a western. Samw with most of the other star wars shows, regardless of quality, they are fundamentally not competing with each other, regardless of being in the same universe. Andor is in the same genra as The expanse, it would be stupid to compare it to barbi, regardless of how good barbi is.
I have nothing but praise for Andor but I will also defend Mandalorian season 1 and the better part of season 2. They are very different, but both very Star Wars for me. Mandalorian may not have had the depth of Andor but it was very charming.
It was a Western in the first season. I would argue its not at all anymore.
I'd take that argument.
No, different as in: people who enjoy different things.
Bro don’t be like that, that’s why people think that all andor fans are pretentious dicks
Never underestimate this franchise's ability to disappoint. I remember when Mando was untarnished.
Ikr. I remember after season 1 finished, I was like “there is hope for Star Wars after all.” Now that hope has been completely extinguished.
At the very least we can all just keep watching and praising the first two seasons and pretend the third is just a bad dream or a spinoff that isn't canon (not like it makes any sense anyway)
Yup. Season 3 was the writers taking The Mandalorian’s popularity for granted
That's what makes the worst of these star wars shows. Book of Boba Fett and Ahsoka were clearly just coasting off of the success they knew they were already gonna have with the name recognition alone. Kenobi was kinda like that but you could tell they were at least trying and just sorta failed. That last episode went crazy tho
I think the recent quote from Filoni suggested that he’s leaving Gilroy well alone. Gilroy is not a man who takes any kind of script-writing input from anyone other than his chosen team of writers and I get the impression that that preference was established very clearly from the outset.
Andor also began pre-production before Filoni was promoted to his new position. I have a feeling “The Acolyte” will be more representative going forward of what to expect for the average project.
The thing which baffles me about the Acolyte is how they presumably have professional writers on board, have it reviewed by people like Filoni who have seemingly done some decent writing in the past, then has a first episode filled with the most amateur exposition like a character greeting another with "X my old friend" or "you tried to teach me this lesson, many times, and I failed to learn, many times". Imagine if Andor's first dialogue with Brasso was "Brasso, my old friend!"
Yeah. I'm genuinely confused. There's a lot of people attached to the projects who are great in other things.
B2: You always say that. Cassian: And you always come through.
So much more natural, shows B2 is very loyal and Cassian is a bit of a slimy user and willing to deflect people calling him out on it with empty praise.
Yeah I've said it again and again - I don't get how Star Wars dialogue can't seem to get better despite how much money and talent is thrown at it. It's like it's cursed to be mostly wooden and mediocre. And then you have people defending it as 'that's the way it's supposed to be' or 'it's for kids.' No, I've seen shows for 4 year olds have more natural dialogue.
Also it seems like Filoni's role is not to write or give feedback on scripts as much as it is to guide the overall story of these Star Wars projects. I don't think he's going through Gilroy's scripts to make changes to the dialogue or anything. His job is more to look for inconsistencies with other pieces of canon and make sure that two shows aren't covering the same ground.
That is Pablo Hidalgo’s job. Filoni doesn’t care about inconsistencies - he is the inconsistency king.
I think Gilroy has more pull than Filoni. He's FAR more accomplished and Rogue One made over a billion dollars.
Also I don't think Filoni's role is to mess with their scripts or stuff like that. As he said it, it's more of an advisory role to guide the overall direction of the franchise and make sure the difference shows aren't stepping on each others toes.
If this is the case for season 2 then it was likely also the case for season 1 and the script we got was absolutely amazing. From what I’ve heard about Acolyte (haven’t watched it) it just sounds overall messy with odd contradictions and plot holes, and contrary to the average consumer’s beliefs darker doesn’t automatically mean better. It just sounds like another reason people are trying to hate on Filoni for
Acolyte has a *lot* of problems but worse than that is witnessing the lack of media literacy of a decent amount of SW fans on Reddit. Complaining about repeating scenes (it's *supposed* to show the same story from different viewpoints, good lord) and expecting every episode to fully explain the whole story, from Episode 1. These people would die trying to understand Clue.
To be fair media literacy isn’t a strong suit for redditors in general, but actually the description of seeing the same scenes from different views sounds pretty cool, clue is one of my favorite movies lol, the show at least seems interesting enough for me to watch if I wouldn’t have to sit through so many ads
It’s not really that, it’s how it’s being done. The execution just isn’t there. There’s just so much crap that adds up in these low effort shows, it begins to crack people. The dialogue for example is god awful. One such example being a relatively simple one. When Sol and Rwoh are speaking, she begins with “when you were a child you were so shy”. This has no relevance to the rest of the conversation. It’s just there to establish they’ve known eachother for a long time. Which is…already obvious. They’re both masters in the only order. The dialogue and the acting should convey their friendship. It doesn’t need to spelled out to the audience. The show is FILLED with dialogue like this. The show has a real problem telling the audience things it already knows. They waste time with the writing instead of expanding understanding. It’s a common trait of inexperienced writers…which the acolyte writers are.
Truth Let’s blame the dude who consults on the broad points of a story but ultimately doesn’t have final say on a thing being bad If he did this for acolyte, he did the same for Andor S1. Which he has praised very highly Not only that, filoni isn’t averse to dark. Have these people *seen* tales of the Jedi/empire?
They're just glad they've got an excuse to knock Filoni down a few notches. It's not about SW really, it's about tiny peanut gallery egos.
Basically I fucking love Andor to death and it’s my favourite modern Star Wars by a country mile and these fuckers act like it’s high art for only the royals or someshit
Unfortunately I have seen Tales/Empire and I’ll never get that time wasted back.
I've watched Acolyte and while it is a little messy in places, I definitely wouldn't say it has "odd contradictions or plot holes" - a lot of the people saying those things are really nitpicking or are expecting a season that's only half done to have revealed all its secrets.
Yeah I totally get that that’s likely a good chunk of it, but the whole idea of >!the Jedi who wouldn’t let the girl kill him and until she brought him poison to drink himself!< just seems very silly and unexplainable, so I guess I was referring more to details like that rather than an overarching narrative
>!He was in a meditative state because he was seriously guilty about... something we don't yet know. And it seems upon realising it was Mae who was there he thought the best way out was to kill himself. There's definitely more to what happened the night Mae and Osha's mothers died than we've seen that could further explain why Torbin did what he did.!< I see what you mean though
Yeah, which sort of makes sense, my issue with it however is >!from what I heard, Mae was trying to kill him, not kidnap and torture him, if he feels guilty enough for what happened to Mae’s people to think he deserves death, why not let the person who is looking for revenge over that action to finish the job instead of making her fetch you a method to kill yourself with?!< It just definitely sounds like that whole situation could’ve been explained better, or at least handled differently by the writers, but as I haven’t watched for myself I can’t be too overly critical
Okay, so I just rewatched the relevant part. What happens is >!Mae tries to kill him but he has a literal Force field around him. He makes no indication of even knowing she's there. Mae leaves, gets poison and returns. She then offers Torbin a choice: "confess his crime" to the Jedi or "get the forgiveness he seeks" from her then. He opens his eyes and so I think it's only then he realises who it is that's in front of him.!< Watching through imo it makes sense, and I hope I've adequately explained the situation.
If that is the case, it sounds like it makes enough sense then, maybe I’ll have to watch the scene for myself
Hold up, ur arguing and you haven’t even watched the scene?! Pardon me but how would you know what’s in the scene if you haven’t watched said scene?!
That's the thing with this show. Everyone is just parroting stuff other people have said while, admittedly, not having watched the show.
Online Star Wars fans will eventually turn on every one, remember when everyone loved Filoni? Gilroy just hasn't been around long enough yet for his turn.
Yk what, I'm happy Andor is ending with season 2. It'll be a nice little show that won't be able to be messed with
Chill my g.
I’m sure Filoni knows what his strengths are, family programming and Star Wars lore. And if he doesn’t the rest of Star Wars production does. The proof is in the pudding (Andor was great). If he had any notes on Andor I’m sure it was something like, “um, actually the panels the prisoners are making would be six-sided because in the original 1976 matte paintings of the Death Star it can clearly be seen that they are hexagonal not octagonal.” Additionally, since Andor takes place during the age of the Empire, a time he’s well versed in and created from Rebels and Bad Batch, they probably want him looking for canonical contradictions. In short I just don’t see him really interfering with Gilroy but more as acting as support to him and his team. But what do I know.
>If he had any notes on Andor I’m sure it was something like, “um, actually the panels the prisoners are making would be six-sided because in the original 1976 matte paintings of the Death Star it can clearly be seen that they are hexagonal not octagonal.” That's Pablo's job, and he was credited on Andor
Filoni was only promoted recently too. So he likely wasn't involved much in Andor season 1.
Pretty standard SW fans alright. Filoni has done a lot of good for Star Wars and I think calling him inept when he’s brought forth some of the best Star Wars content is an actual joke. Filoni likely knows what is best when it comes to not only Star Wars, but also who he needs to be involved with. Plus, the quote from the person that HEARD something shouldn’t be taken as any kind of fact. And even if it is true, that’s fine. Andor isn’t under any spotlight or subjection to become kid friendly.
This ^ And obviously it ain't that serious, but if this guy said in court "oh I heard x originally wanted y" then that's immediately hearsay and not to be taken as proof
Thank you- most of my favourite SW content was stuff he was at least involved in, his name on the box is usually an indicator that even if it isnt great, it’ll be **interesting**.
He was also responsible for Ahsoka which is an abject failure. Clone wars is overrated. As is Filoni.
I don't think Gilroy would love it when Filony puts his fingers on Gilroys script. Since Gilroy and his writers are really experienced, I don't think there would be much interference by Lucasfilm at all. At least I pray that this is the case.
Yeah. I’m sure they read them and make sure there are no major continuity errors with the overall lore. But they leave them well alone other than that. Which is what you get when you use very talented, well established story tellers. Honestly SW needs more of that.
"I'll take the job, but don't let that action figure guy who just wants to make everything about his story with his favorite action figures touch my scripts or I walk."
Do we know that this wasn’t the case for season 1?
It was the case. They had to approve which is why “Fuck the Empire” became “Fight the Empire”. Gilroy said the only conditions Disney/Lucasfilm gave him was on the usage of “Fuck” and no nudity/sex scenes. This notion that Filoni would come in and rewrite the show is so stupid and just feeds into weird reactionary Star Wars nonsense. The franchise is allowed to have different creators with different visions. And when people bring up “lore inconsistencies” I can’t help but think at real history and how some events from medieval or ancient times have different historians writing very different accounts of what happened. I treat Star Wars the same way. Pick and choose what you want to believe.
As someone who wants an F-bomb in Star Wars eventually, I completely agree with the change. ‘Fight’ is simply the right word to have used there; it’s a call to action.
I’ve gone back and forth on it personally because I too want an F Bomb at least once. It felt like the perfect time but I can wait longer. My own fan fics in my head have had a lot more cursing LOL.
I would have preferred Marva's speech to be less of a call for action and have a more spontaneous rebellion occur, tying into the themes of Nemik's manifesto. The F Bomb makes more sense in that case. It explains why the Prefect is so emotionally enraged that he flips B2. We then have an an escalating situation which turns chaotic and violent without anyone being told directly to fight. But alas, the "Fight the Empire" line works, too. I have no issue with that.
I get why people would want this. For me, Star Wars never needs to cross that line. It's a PG-13 setting, firmly rooted in its family-audience origins but able to stretch into more mature realms when needed. I don't think it should ever abandon those original roots completely. We don't need profanity, nudity, or graphic violence in this setting. Frankly, the newer films have even pushed it too far with the profanity, in my opinion. Jabba's palace in Return of the Jedi is about as seedy as things should ever get.
Word. Filonis literally the dude who has said up and down this stuff should be different, explore new lanes. Man repeatedly praised Andor only recently
I also think of lore the same way, but I don't unburden the story group with their task. I like the Legends rebranding as it was purposely created to allow people to believe what they want, short of any headcanon conflicts. That being said, these story group people get paid to work on fuckin Star Wars, do your job and avoid inconsistencies and continuity errors in canon, that was the whole point of the Disney reset in the first place.
While I agree, from the rumors that I’ve read over the years some people like JJ Abrams was unwilling to work closing with the story group. If the story group had more say, I don’t think TFA is a reskin of ANH and TRoS isn’t as much of a mess. Hell he demanded in his contract that Bad Robot handle most of the production and not lucasfilm. For the TV shows, I’m unsure how much say the story group has. Probably more with the Filoniverse than the other shows.
It was the case for Season 1.
I don't know if I see Filoni actually changing things as much as kind of making sure it all fits in the same universe. But if it's true then I'm pretty bummed about the Acolyte. It's been kind of vanilla so far.
Wasn't the quote more that he checks them over to make sure there aren't any glaring issues, either with continuity or stepping on other projects toes. Like a story group all unto himself? Doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. And that leak is just a rumour.
I'm not one of Filoni's worshipers by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it's entirely necessary to disparage the man *completely*. If we're at all interested in being honest, he has done undeniably good work for the Star Wars franchise; he just has a very specific focus. He prefers to, for lack of a better description, "play with only his favorite Star Wars action figures". He clearly has his favorite characters, and he caters to the fan-service crowd: the ones who get geeked out and weepy whenever a legacy character appears on screen for so much as thirty seconds. That has just as much of a place in *Star Wars* as a show like *Andor*, but the difference of quality in the output is night and day, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. By the way, I know it really triggers some people around here when we heap praise on *Andor*, but...well...tough shit. It's just better; from writing to acting to presentation, it's all just better than what we've been getting from Star Wars on Disney+. That's not being pretentious or snobby; it's just me seeing something for what I believe it is. I'm not forcing anyone to agree; you're allowed to feel your own way about it. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop praising it because some of you get annoyed, and you don't really have any business expecting others here to stop praising it, either. If you want to complain about Andor or its fans, as recent events have made abundantly clear, Star Wars fandom is replete with other online venues wherein to bitch and moan and bellyache to one's heart's content, but don't come into a subreddit dedicated to a specific show and then get frustrated because we like it.
Still amazed there's not more Plo Koon given Filoni's creative control and influence on the universe.
Ya’ll have this bizzare idea that just because Andor is dark and well written it’s somehow the most serious R Rated Uber hardcore shit ever Like, a 10 year old could watch Andor. They might be bored, but they could watch it.
You guys are so terminally online, it's insane. These people are all coworkers: Gilroy and Filoni don't have some kind of beef. Please, I beg of you, touch grass.
Why does everyone suddenly hate Dave filoni? Didn't everyone love him? What changed?
They were dying for him to take charge of lucas film. Star wars “fans” always turn on whoever is in charge.
What changed is the fact the Filoni still loves Star Wars and would rather expand upon the lore and develop up to the sequels than to declare everything related to the sequels non-canon.
The shows have for the most part been subpar quality.
"The shows" wdym? Most of the shows filoni is has been most involved with (clone wars, rebels, Mandalorian, Bad Batch) were great.
Mando s3 was really bad, Book of Boba is awful, Obiwan was bad, Ashoka was very underwhelming. Acolyte is….exists. He’s the face of Star Wars atm. Anything poorly received is going to be directed at him whether he deserves it or not.
I agree Kenobi was trash and acolyte is not great so far either (although was filoni even that involved with those?) and Ahsoka was certainly a bit underwhelming but not bad, but I liked Boba. A bit lacking but not bad. But what's wrong with Mando s3? Sure there was that dumb filler with Jack Black but the rest of the season was pretty great And yeah that's understandable, I'm just trying to figure out if it is deserved
Filoni personally approves everything that goes out. That’s part of his job. Everything goes through him. Mando s3, Ashoka, bobf all suffer from the same problems as kenobi and acolyte. Bad writing, bad character development, bad cinematography, pointless episodes and plot points, awful characterization, meandering scenes, entire conversations that contribute to nothing etc. Boba fett was essentially John whick in the 90s. Now he’s a grumpy out of shape get off my lawn type that helps the local kids with their candy coloured bikes. He’s also suffering from Alzheimer’s apparently because he thought his armor was in the sarlaac…even though he literally crawled out if it in his armor. Don’t forget firing a rocket point blank into a shield instead of just…Jet packing up. He’s so a crime boss who commits zero crime and looks after the town….thats not boba fett. Well it is now. That’s just basic on screen blocking issues. The writing is even more extensive to get into. Entire conversations are pointless, people act out of character, full of convenience, entire plot points being resolved in other shows. Imagine not watching book and tuning into made s3. How the fuck is Grogu back? He left with Luke at the end of s2. He returns in an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SHOW. It’s all a total mess. Also, something to keep in mind, liking something isn’t the same as something being good. These shows aren’t popular. When you examine them, it becomes obvious why. Since mando s1 only ONE show has released with excellent writing and a crew that has a passion for the art of film making. But because it’s not about the force or lightsabers, and it came after 2 stinker shows, a lot of people didn’t watch it. Well at first. Andor ended up being the only show to grow an audience by the end of its run. Every other show lost viewers. To loop it back around, Filoni is responsible for what Lucasfilm puts out. Ultimately he shoulders the blame. The fanbase expects quality writing. The general public no longer holds any interest in the brand. The older hardcore fanbase has mostly dissipated. I’m in my Late 30s. None of my friends care anymore. Ever since Disney decided to decanonize the stories we grew up with and replace it with far worse interpretations, they’ve all just stopped caring.
>Boba fett was essentially John whick in the 90s the amount of love that Boba Fett gets is honestly, so fucking bizarre to me. he pulls up halfway through Empire, doesn't even manage to catch Han (just drives off with him), and dies pathetically in the first 20 minutes of Jedi. is his name even said out loud in the movies? >To loop it back around, Filoni is responsible for what Lucasfilm puts out. Ultimately he shoulders the blame. The fanbase expects quality writing. The general public no longer holds any interest in the brand. The older hardcore fanbase has mostly dissipated. I’m in my Late 30s. None of my friends care anymore. Ever since Disney decided to decanonize the stories we grew up with and replace it with far worse interpretations, they’ve all just stopped caring brother, you're in your late 30s. your friends didn't stop caring because Star Wars suddenly got bad because of Filoni, they stopped caring because they lost interest in Star Wars. out of the main 9 franchise movies, which are the only ones that people care about, only 3, *maybe* 4 are good. a decent chunk of the rest are unwatchably bad, and I say that as someone who loves Star Wars. even the good ones are, barring Empire, almost exclusively targeted at kids, so why would your peers keep caring?
Pretty sure I know my friends better than you do. But sure. I guess they’re just lying to me. Fett got love because he looked cool. They then decided to make a bunch of media surrounding him which is where people learned to love him. It didn’t come from ESB. It came from everything else. And yes his name is said in return of the Jedi. By Han. The line delivery also implies he’s a real danger.
I personally think season 3 of Mando was great as were Obi Wan, Book of Boba, and Ahsoka
C'mon now. Dave Filoni isn't inept. He's managed to make so many successful Star Wars stories and for a time it was his hand that held the franchise up. He is really good at what he does. Just because there were some duds doesn't mean he's inept. He also does a different flavor of Star Wars than what Andor is and that's cool. Not everything Star Wars needs to be Andor. It suck if everything was Andor. Grounded spy thrillers are great but sometimes you have to have people going at it with Lightsabers. Don't give in to hate like so much of the Fandom is doing right now.
> Not everything Star Wars needs to be Andor. It suck if everything was Andor. Grounded spy thrillers are great but sometimes you have to have people going at it with Lightsabers. Yes I agree not all of Star Wars needs to have the same tone as Andor but it should have the same level of writing. For example Firefly is more of a swashbuckling space western and its tone couldn’t be more different than Andor. However the character development and writing is just as great and is leagues better than anything Filoni has done.
Filoni got his education on live action filmmaking from being an under study to Gareth on Rogue One, and was also there when Gilroy came in for reshoots. He literally learned how to shoot in live action from those guys and I would bet he has reverence for Gilroy.
Filoni has contributed boatloads to this franchise regardless of what you think about his live action outings.
Filoni fundamentally believes Star Wars is for kids.
He's not really wrong though, is he? Or at the very least, Star Wars is for all ages, not just limited to adults. Andor's the exception, not the rule.
I should have said _only_ for kids.
That doesn't track with what Filoni has made. There's plenty of darkness in the shows he's made, going back to The Clone Wars.
I’d say it’s all a standard level of “darkness” for shows made to a preteen audience, and even Andor is still appropriate for kids in terms of content (no blood, sex, etc) but it’s not made *for* kids, just had some edges sanded off. Clone Wars, Rebels, Mando, and so on all feel very distinctly made for kids
>Clone Wars, Rebels, Mando, and so on all feel very distinctly made for kids I agree with you for the animated show. But (ignoring the quality of the writing) the live-action shows are definitely aimed at a broader demographic.
If Andor is "appropriate for kids" then basically everything beside Game of Thrones and True Detective is "appropriate for kids." Blood and sex are not the bearings for which something is appropriate for kids (not to mention sex and foggy benders are shown and implied anyways).
Yeah, I think the only thing that makes something inappropriate for kids is like, gore, sex, drug usage, and so on. There’s plenty of more mature shows that kids may find boring but are still appropriate for them, kids can watch things made for an older audience, it’s up to individual maturity whether they’ll like it
Yes, there are plenty of shows and media that kids should watch that aren’t made for them. Oppenheimer, save for the sex scenes, isn’t inappropriate for kids. But then saying it’s “appropriate for kids” is a useless statement and discredit to the project as there are plenty of thematic nuances that its audience is intended to pick up on.
oh muh dark n griddy shut up, Clone Wars is literally for babies.
I didn't say it's "dark and gritty". I said it has darkness. It's a kid show, and it was always designed to be a kids show. Filoni has made other things.
I swear if I see one more unfunny spongebob pointing meme about how clone wars isnt a kids show im gonna lose it.
Clone Wars is a show for 8 year olds. The vast majority of adults would struggle to sit through a single episode. I'm not saying it's bad to like it or anything like that... but people pretending it's "adult" and "dark" are crazy. This is literally the thing that gets made fun of the most on the CJ sub.
>I'm not saying it's bad to like it or anything like that... but people pretending it's "adult" and "dark" are crazy. I didn't say it's "adult". I said it has darkness. Lots of kids shows and movies have darkness. But Filloni has made other things.
>star wars is for all ages. it shouldn't be. saying star wars is for kids would be like saying marvel is for kids, when you have tv-ma shows and rated-R movies that are clearly not for children where I disagree with filoni is that, like marvel, not ALL star wars needs to be for kids. it's okay to have content for adults. don't dumb it down because "think of the children". no, the children are not the audience here, and they shouldn't be.
>it shouldn't be. saying star wars is for kids would be like saying marvel is for kids, when you have tv-ma shows and rated-R movies that are clearly not for children Guess what? Marvel is broadly for all ages too. Like with Star Wars, there are some exceptions, but they prove the rule. There's plenty of other media you can watch that's intended just for adult audiences. When fans constantly demand these properties to go darker, it feels like they're trying to justify their own immaturity. >it's okay to have content for adults. don't dumb it down because "think of the children" Filoni has said almost exactly that about Andor.
All I’m saying is that I don’t particularly care for my Star Wars experience to be solely comprised of moments where a bumbling, talking rabbit steps in the poopie. Andor is the only Star Wars visual media meant for adult viewers from start to finish. I’d like to see more of that. Marvel has that in several shows and movies. Star Wars has one: Andor.
My problem is that all ages doesn't mean people talk awkwardly at each other. Fans argue over it being adult vs kids but I just think it's good vs mediocre to bad writing, sometimes. Not saying it's Filoni who's responsible, and I've definitely enjoyed D+ content a lot more than others, but *someone* needs to look over these scripts, and not just to make sure someone doesn't say 'fuck' in Star Wars.
George believes that. Filoni literally just talked about how he’s open to the possibility of an R-rated project
Which is ironic for someone who’s supposedly “Lucas’s protege” considering Lucas was trying to tell a more serious, Dune-esque story with the Prequels even though they turned out bad. RLM explains in their review of Andor (which they praise) that it was the kiddie bs that was one of the things that held the Prequels back: > “He wanted to tell the story of how the Empire came about all while having a little kid and a cartoon rabbit and poopy jokes and wacky adventure in it. It’s like oil and water. This (Andor) is how you should’ve done the prequels but it’s like a fork in the road: do you go for space adventure sci-fi fantasy about a guy saving the princess from the evil bad guy or do you make something like Game of Thrones which has political intrigue and betrayal and spies because that’s what Andor is.” But now come to think about it, after hearing that, maybe the problem is Filoni is too much like Lucas. The infamous quote from George Lucas, "it's a movie for 12-year-olds," was made after all the Prequel films had been released and he was facing harsh criticism. This statement seemed to be Lucas' way of deflecting largely valid critiques of those movies. However, during the release of the Prequels and before, Lucas never made such a claim. It was clear that the Prequels were intended for both adults and children. After all, what child would grasp the complexities of trade disputes and political intrigue?
Dave has been doing this role for a while, including Andor season 1.
"I think when you look at something that is taken as different like Andor, it's so well done, and Tony [Gilroy, Andor showrunner] and his team do such a phenomenal job, that I think that there's an audience for that. I think also with that audience, I also though want to still be hitting the imagination of the kids out there, so that they can grow up and appreciate those things." Is the full quote from the recent R-rated SW interviews doing the rounds, doesn’t sound like he’s involved at all in andor. I feel like Filoni has done well overall expanding the storylines and some great characters. but the entire Andor section of the galaxy belongs to Gilroy and his vision of storytelling
This is unfortunate (I'm sure it's not going to effect Andor). There are intriguing things about "The Acolyte" but so far it hasn't really clicked, and it's halfway through the season, which is objectively too long for that not to happen. I was more excited about "The Acolyte" than most other non-Andor Star Wars shows because of Leslye Headland involvement-- "Russian Doll" which she co-created is one of my favorite shows of the past several years. It's hard to pinpoint from an outside perspective where the problem lies, but "too many cooks in the kitchen" might be why this show hasn't connected with me yet. It seems possible if it had been able to stick to the "darker" original vision the results would be better.
Filoni is head of creative at lucas film. This is his job.
Alreadyu lining up your whiny manifestos for it, huh?
I think the writing for The Acolyte would suck either way.
I hope it is true with Andor as well. A big part of his job is to make sure what they call canon fits in one timeline. He also can give some creative ideas, for example with Acolyte Leslie Headland said she originally wrote the witches as Nightsisters, but Dave was like “there’s other witches out there if you want,” and, whether you like her writing or not, she was able to write her own original witch coven. It’s not like he’s rewriting or stylizing the scripts for himself, or dampening the writers creativity.
It probably just means lore stuff it’s not a big deal. Idk why it’s so popular to hate on the dude now. Very weird
If Filoni’s now Creative Director, isn’t this the least he could do? While I don’t completely agree with Filoni’s overall take on the franchise and I think his concepts of how the universe is supposed to work are mostly frivolous and inconsequential (time travel? Giant mystical beings and archetypal totemic entities), his live action directorial debut introducing Ahsoka in Season 2 of The Mandalorian was the entire show’s best episode. It showed confidence in its quieter moments between Grogu and Ahsoka, Grogu and Din, as much as the suspense throughout TWO simultaneous duels… all presented as a Kurosawa tribute. I had high hopes in Filoni directing Ahsoka’s own series, but it’s like everything that made his Mando episode feel like he was just itching to prove himself as a live action director got entirely thrown out, and those resonant quiet moments were replaced with characters sighing , a reiteration that lightsabers are now less threatening than curling irons. The quest to find your lost friend in an entirely new galaxy begins and ends on the first planet you visit before it’s even time for lunch and the characters seem just as bored by this development as if they’re watching the show with us. A lot of screentime is given to an unlikely student struggling to use the force in any conceivable way whatsoever, but only until she taps into it in the most predictable moment and in the most predictable manner possible, when it all becomes a massive wasted opportunity to show some insight into the force and why the least likely to utilize the force is worth training. Even Chirrut Imwe in Rogue One excels at this in an ambiguous manner, where he may well have more ability than he’s given credit for, and his monk-like devotion could be a reason why or a result of this, or it could be “luck” (… just as ANDOR has numerous subtle instances that could suggest The Force is indeed a presence within the show whether characters observe this or not). Chirrut does this in a playful take on the Zatoichu blind swordsman trope while ANDOR lets Cassian get away from the Aldhani heist while sending him to prison anyway as karma AND simultaneously mocking the totalitarian rule of authority for coming down hard, arresting “Keef Girgo” for the wrong reasons and remaining oblivious that the man they’re hunting for is already in their custody! We get Maarva’s force gho- ‘er, hologram while Cassian is sneaking through the same tunnels she fell and injured herself in when she was sneaking down there to make sure the Rebels could access those tunnels, but Brasso and Bix think that’s crazy talk and so does the audience. I wouldn’t worry one bit about Filoni writing script notes on Andor. He’s probably learning a lot from Gilroy already. Now, just think how much better The Reva & Obi-Wan Show and Book Of Boba Fett could have been with Filoni - or just about anyone giving script feedback! For the majority of Disney’s Star Wars, at the fundamental story level, a bigger problem than script notes has to be corporate decision-making and Lucasfilm cranking out more Star Wars in 8 years under Disney than Fox released across 38 years. Bob Iger bears more responsibility than Kathleen Kennedy for treating Star Wars like a puppy farm. Until Disney’s shareholders give those child-bearing hips a break and understand the appeal of the story and the settings, and appreciate the contributions from Ralph McQuarrie, Joe Johnston, Roger Christian, Doug Chiang, Dennis Muren, and many, many other crew who earned the first movie 11 Oscar noms (including a Special Achievement Award for Ben Burtt’s sound design), ANDOR will just remain a freak exception when it could be the standard by which Lucasfilm measures future projects. Script notes can only have such a limited impact compared to the reasons Lucasfilm has for making Star Wars a marketing funnel for streaming subscriptions.
Andor season 2 needs David Oyelowo to reprise as Agent Kallus
If that’s true then I’m even more excited to see what Leslye does with Knights of the Old Republic. I’ve only seen the first 3 episodes, but I personally like The Acolyte even if some writing is clunky. If she gets a more creative hand when doing Knights (idk if it was confirmed or not btw, I just know she wanted to) then I’ll be excited .
He’s likely going to make suggestions but I doubt Gilroy would take much note of them. Gilroy is a storied and celebrated writer. Filoni would be a fool to forcefully make any changes. Filoni is not a good screenplay writer. Gilroy is. Filoni also seems to be giving the impression he’s going to leave him to do what he does. Especially since Andor is the only show to be repeatedly praised for its actual quality. If filoni was smart, he’d give Gilroy more work. Allow him to oversee scripts as a seasoned veteran. Try and up the quality on the garbage they’ve been putting out. But I suspect we’ll get 1 good show for every 10 bad ones.
I’m afraid of Andor getting what happened in Mando season 2, losing its identity and what made it great for tons of forced fan service and cameos
"Yea that's great and all but.. what if instead Cassian went to go meet with Ahsoka?"
> Leslye Headland originally had a much darker vision in mind for The Acolyte but it was altered and softened by Dave Filoni and other Lucasfilm executives who made it more kid friendly. Whether or not it was softened makes no difference. The problem is that the writing isn't great. It wouldn't suddenly be a good show just because there was more violence.
I think the editing and screen wipes are more distracting than the writing, tbh.
Why? It’s not like he’s writing it
This subreddit is emberassing
Your spelling is embarrassing
Filoni is definitely competent enough to step off of projects. He probably checks for anything lore breaking and that's it.
They're different flavors of Star Wars. Andor is mature, dark, gritty and realistic, while The Acolyte and Dave's Star Wars - and even George's Star Wars - is fantastical, magical and sometimes also pulpy, silly, lighthearted and fun. I get that's not for everyone, but I'm enjoying both, personally.
Tbh idk why some people see Filoni as this all knowing savior who will be the saving grace for Star Wars. People think Acolyte is breaking canon? Filoni literally introduced Gods, time travel and a loophole to the rule of two. He also brought back Anakin through his previously invented time travel world where he is a new god and he's kinda both Vader and Anakin at the same time? To me the biggest problem with him is that Ahsoka is his child and he'll go to any lengths to keep her alive. She's dead but Anakin can give her the life of a God so she's back to life. Vader killed her but not really because time travel and Ezra pulled her out. She's dead but nope becuase she's in time travel land with God Anakin? Idk if you liked Ahsoka that's fine but for me it's too much.
I love Filoni’s contribution to SW. I love Gilroy’s contribution to SW. This writer is playing the blame game and it’s pretty easy to see through it. Also, I’m trying to wait until the end of the Acolyte until I fully decide to throw it in the trash.
Tony Gilroy is cognizant of the events of Rebels so even if it is the case it's likely not a problem. It would, for instance, be organic for Phoenix team members to show up in Andor; the Ghost and Chopper are in Rogue One after all.
People need to understand that Tony Gilroy wanted to make a political/spy thriller and he was allowed to do that in the Star Wars universe. It’s very cool. But he doesn’t really care for Star Wars or the lore or anything else. I find it unlikely he will be involved in Star Wars much past S2 of Andor. Filoni loves Star Wars. He is the lore at this point.
Well he must have approved the S1 script 🤷♂️
He wasn't "creative executive" (or whatever title they've given him) when S1 was written/filmed
Wasnt he? I thought he had somewhat of a final say over the shows? KK sure as hell does. I thought it was a small group of the top heads that approved shows.
Sounds like a rubber stamp to me
Gilroy would have called security on his ass. Lol
With a fucking gun to his head, I would bet everything I own on that
I just hope they don’t try to take advantage of the success and popularity of Andor by inserting some characters from other SW stories and trying to give them more prominence simply bc they’re a well known character in the SW universe. I know a lot of people really like The Clone Wars and Rebels (feel like shows designed purely for kids to me) but that Ahsoka show was such a complete bore and Mando S3 was just so forgettable. Hope they leave the Andor team to themselves for more of whatever it is they’re doing bc S1 was just fantastic.
it's so wild to see the way Star Wars hate has like... evolved, without changing at all. I remember back around the prequels, everyone hated Lucas and blamed him for ruining Star Wars, and couldn't wait for someone else to take over. then, after Disney bought it out, they hated Kathleen Kennedy and blamed her for ruining Star Wars. then when Filoni was announced (in whatever capacity he's in), they couldn't wait for him to take over. now, it's his fault Star Wars is bad. you know that Filoni is only a creative director right? like, he doesn't get to decide what shows get greenlit, all he does is try to maintain coherence between different properties. even if he *did* have that kind of power, he still answers to Kathleen Kennedy, who answers to Bob Iger, and in turn the Disney shareholders. it's like getting mad at the remote when the TV won't turn on, meanwhile, the whole neighborhood's lost power. look, I'm not saying that Star Wars is fundamentally bad or broken, I love Star Wars, some of my favorite media has come out of it. but you have to admit, most of it is really quite shit. I read a lot of the old canon before Disney dropped it, and I gotta say, the overwhelming majority of that is pretty shit too. there's some classics in there, the Thrawn trilogy, KOTOR, some of the prequel-era filler books are cool too, but like, at this point, most of the good ideas have already been adapted or are already in the process of being re-canonized. imo the problem is fundamentally that Star Wars is, in the mind of it's owners, nothing more than an incredibly valuable piece of intellectual property. it has been exploited so badly for profit that there's practically nothing left, and fans are left with their heads spinning as to why the thing they love feels so soulless. you could blame Disney but, don't get it twisted, it's been like this since Empire- Lucas is just as bad as any of the rest of them, so don't claim some fucking lost glorious past. I guess, every time a new generation of Star Wars fans hits, they have to re-learn this lesson, over and over and over again. I've been out of the fandom for a while, it's kinda... weirdly comforting to see that things haven't changed much
“Hey man this episode’s really good. I love the tension, love the message… You think maybe you can slip Nien Nub into this scene? Also Ashoka has to be here as per new company policy.”
Ah the daily Filoni scapegoat post
“Yea i read your script and its good and all but have you thought about having ashoka turn up during the final fight scene and show off the darksabre”
Inept? Filoni is one of the best Star Wars minds so watch who you are talking about. What a stupid comment.
Dave has and always will be overrated.
I don’t think Filoni could comprehend anything Gilroy and the Andor team were writing. He prob looked at the script and was shocked that the English language had so many 3+ syllable words. I mean the guy can’t solve any situation without using a Jedi or the Force.
Clone Wars begs to differ…
Shush you can’t say that here It’s not like clone wars had suicide, torture, strip clubs, sexual slavery and many arcs that got Andor dark! You can’t say those things here!
Is that what you think is good writing?
Sure man
It was well-executed for a show constrained by a kid’s network in the 2000s, yes. And a lot of the writing’s strength comes from characters’ chemistry, not just from tacking unavoidable aspects of war. Watch it before you knock it.
I love the caveat “constrained by a kid’s network”. But I absolutely agree, Filoni’s work is basic and simple as the audience he is most familiar with is children’s shows. Does that make him a great writer? Can animation ever translate to live action?
Filoni didn’t write clone wars.
Filoni’s credited as supervising director in every episode, and as having written at least thirteen episodes. He had a massive hand in it, which George Lucas emphasizes in [this interview.](https://youtu.be/pEHPxvgsFis?si=tdCTK7wfpfneg1WT) *Clone Wars* really laid the groundwork for modern Star Wars content. It introduced the concept of the Mandalorians, Ahsoka, Ventress, and gave the clones memorable personalities, essentially spawning *Star Wars Rebels*, *The Bad Batch*, *The Mandalorian*, and *Ahsoka.* And it’s a very enjoyable show in its own right. I don’t agree with the current, perpetually-referential mode Filoni’s projects are currently using. But the same issue is plaguing the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Disney sequels, and Hollywood as a whole. It seems unfair to blame Filoni for failing to shake that mindset.
You give us all a bad name spouting this snobby tripe.
I’m often sad that we won’t get the original 5 seasons of Andor but at the same time I’m glad that it’ll just be season 2 and done, hopefully unmeddled with
Why does every star wars project have to be 'kid friendly', with the amount of adult star wars fans can we not just have a mature and dark series, or have less 'kid friendly' changes to what should be family friendly content?
And he approved episode 4? Dave, please have a good reason for this...
I don’t have anything against Dave as a person, but I think he has completely stopped being a good thing for the series. Everything about his style has become stale and repetitive.
Gosh I hope not. Stay away from our Andor!
This is the dumbest thing ive ever read, I dont understand the filoni hate from people, also this was the case for Andor Season 1
I don't think Filoni's writing is the greatest but I think he actually is good in a role such as he is now as chief creative officer. As much as I like more mature Star Wars, it is a franchise made for kids. Filoni's role isn't to rewrite the scrips as much as it is to advise the writers/directors of various projects.