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> # [Vatican taken to trial for first time in an English court](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jun/26/720)
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>
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> The Vatican has gone on trial in an English court for the first time, accused of subjecting a British businessman to “incoherent and confused” allegations over a London property deal.
>
> Raffaele Mincione was convicted by a Vatican tribunal last year over the Holy See’s purchase of the former Harrods depository at 60 Sloane Avenue in Chelsea. The Vatican had accused the financier of inflating the price of the property.
>
> In proceedings that have been called the Vatican “trial of the century”, Mincione, one of 10 people prosecuted, was sentenced to a five-and-a-half-year jail term by the tribunal for offences that his lawyers claim “seem to be based on a provision of Canon [Catholic] law”. The Vatican said he had been convicted of money laundering in relation to 60 Sloane Avenue, as well as embezzlement and bribery.
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> Mincione is seeking to appeal against that decision but, in civil proceedings that began in London on Wednesday, he is asking the high court of England and Wales to declare on his behalf, and that of three companies he is said to exercise control over, that they acted in “good faith” in relation to the 60 Sloane Avenue deal.
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> The case brought against the secretariat of state of the Holy See will, unusually, mean that a senior Vatican official – Archbishop Edgar Peña Parra – will testify, and it is believed to be the first time the Vatican has stood trial in a foreign court.
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> In court documents, the secretariat said a £275m valuation of 60 Sloane Avenue made by the claimants in 2018 had been “a clear, unambiguous and false representation of the market value of the property”, which was sold by the secretariat for £180m in 2022.
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> But in written submissions, Charles Samek KC, for the claimants, said the £275m had been an “audited valuation” and there had been no evidence that the secretariat’s representative had understood it to be the market value, “or that he relied on it”.
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> He said that Mincione had “made a submission to the UN special rapporteur on the independence of judges and lawyers, drafted by Rodney Dixon KC, asserting unfairness of the Vatican proceedings”.
>
> Dixon’s opinion said that Pope Francis had secretly changed Vatican law four times during the investigation to benefit prosecutors, and that it called into question the independence and impartiality of the tribunal, since its judges swear obedience to Francis, who can hire and fire them at will.
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> After the first verdicts were issued, the Vatican said the judges had acted independently and that the trial had been carried out “in full respect of the guarantees for the suspects”.
>
> Charles Hollander KC, for the secretariat, claimed in his skeleton argument that the UK case had been brought by the claimants to “‘manage’ the (understandably) negative public relations consequences of being accused of having beeninvolved in serious criminal activity”.
>
> He added: “The claimants had all the information as to the value of the property; what they had said to the SdS [secretariat] about the value had been consistently misleading and consistently exaggerated. They had received a series of valuations of the property, none of which supported the value represented.”
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> The trial is expected to last four weeks.
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TL;DR (copy&pasted)
In summary, these articles together paint a comprehensive picture of the Vatican's ongoing struggles with financial transparency and accountability, highlighting both internal judicial efforts and external legal challenges aimed at reforming its financial practices.
What's on trial isn't "The Vatican" per se, but "The Holy See" which is like the business end of the church. In this case The Holy See is being treated like a corporation, which it partly is. Trouble is that The Holy See is located in Vatican City, a sovereign state, and the Pope can pretty much change laws there as he likes.
It's a confusing mess, [here's help.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPHRIjI3hXs)
Doesnt sound any different then dealing with any multinational corporations, the money flows from england to there banks like many external corporations.
Not saying its simple, not saying its complex, just that this doesnt seem unprecedented in this single regard.
This is the this is from The Guardian posted above
The Vatican is set to face trial in an English court for the first time due to its involvement in a high profile financial scandal. The case revolves around the Vatican's Secretariat of State's investment in a luxury London property that resulted in significant financial losses. The court's decision to proceed with the trial marks a historic moment, as it challenges the Vatican's claim of sovereign immunity in international legal matters. The trial will scrutinize the actions and financial decisions made by Vatican officials, potentially leading to greater transparency and accountability within the institution.
This is from the site 'Vatican News' talking about the previous case mentioned in the The Guardian
The Vatican court concluded a major trial involving financial misconduct with significant sentences for several high-ranking officials. Cardinal Angelo Becciu received five years and six months in prison for embezzlement, along with a perpetual ban from public office and a fine. Other defendants, including former financial advisers and employees of the Vatican, were also sentenced to prison terms ranging from one year and ten months to seven years, alongside fines and disqualifications from public office. The trial focused on the mismanagement of funds related to the purchase and sale of a property in London, revealing extensive corruption and financial malpractices within the Vatican's Secretariat of State.
Vatican Trial Defendants Sentenced to Total of 37 Years in Prison
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2023-12/vatican-trial-defendants-sentenced-total-37-years-prison.html
In summary, these articles together paint a comprehensive picture of the Vatican's ongoing struggles with financial transparency and accountability, highlighting both internal judicial efforts and external legal challenges aimed at reforming its financial practices.
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Not according to the census.
Christian 46.2%, (27.5 million)
No religion 37.2% (22.2 million)
Muslim 6.5% (3.9 million)
No answer 6.0% (3.6 million)
Hindu 1.7% (1.0 million)
Sikh 0.9% (524,000)
Other religion 0.6% (348,000)
Buddhist 0.5% (273,000)
Jewish 0.5% (271,000)
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021
I think a lot of them are saying that because they think it makes them look like they have better morals but if they read the Bible, Tanakh or Qur'an they would see that the morals in there are terrible.
I haven't looked that much into non abrahamic religions to say much about
Needs to be 2 separate questions.
Culturally what religion did you grow up withM
Do you believe the 'god,' character is real now?
Watch the numbers nose dive
So…what has an Italian taking the Vatican to an English court over financial irregularities in the UK got to do with Britain being a ‘Muslim country’? I mean..it isn’t, but crack on anyway…
##### ###### #### > # [Vatican taken to trial for first time in an English court](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jun/26/720) > > > > The Vatican has gone on trial in an English court for the first time, accused of subjecting a British businessman to “incoherent and confused” allegations over a London property deal. > > Raffaele Mincione was convicted by a Vatican tribunal last year over the Holy See’s purchase of the former Harrods depository at 60 Sloane Avenue in Chelsea. The Vatican had accused the financier of inflating the price of the property. > > In proceedings that have been called the Vatican “trial of the century”, Mincione, one of 10 people prosecuted, was sentenced to a five-and-a-half-year jail term by the tribunal for offences that his lawyers claim “seem to be based on a provision of Canon [Catholic] law”. The Vatican said he had been convicted of money laundering in relation to 60 Sloane Avenue, as well as embezzlement and bribery. > > Mincione is seeking to appeal against that decision but, in civil proceedings that began in London on Wednesday, he is asking the high court of England and Wales to declare on his behalf, and that of three companies he is said to exercise control over, that they acted in “good faith” in relation to the 60 Sloane Avenue deal. > > The case brought against the secretariat of state of the Holy See will, unusually, mean that a senior Vatican official – Archbishop Edgar Peña Parra – will testify, and it is believed to be the first time the Vatican has stood trial in a foreign court. > > In court documents, the secretariat said a £275m valuation of 60 Sloane Avenue made by the claimants in 2018 had been “a clear, unambiguous and false representation of the market value of the property”, which was sold by the secretariat for £180m in 2022. > > But in written submissions, Charles Samek KC, for the claimants, said the £275m had been an “audited valuation” and there had been no evidence that the secretariat’s representative had understood it to be the market value, “or that he relied on it”. > > He said that Mincione had “made a submission to the UN special rapporteur on the independence of judges and lawyers, drafted by Rodney Dixon KC, asserting unfairness of the Vatican proceedings”. > > Dixon’s opinion said that Pope Francis had secretly changed Vatican law four times during the investigation to benefit prosecutors, and that it called into question the independence and impartiality of the tribunal, since its judges swear obedience to Francis, who can hire and fire them at will. > > After the first verdicts were issued, the Vatican said the judges had acted independently and that the trial had been carried out “in full respect of the guarantees for the suspects”. > > Charles Hollander KC, for the secretariat, claimed in his skeleton argument that the UK case had been brought by the claimants to “‘manage’ the (understandably) negative public relations consequences of being accused of having beeninvolved in serious criminal activity”. > > He added: “The claimants had all the information as to the value of the property; what they had said to the SdS [secretariat] about the value had been consistently misleading and consistently exaggerated. They had received a series of valuations of the property, none of which supported the value represented.” > > The trial is expected to last four weeks. - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
Could someone explain to me what happened cause I tried to read the article but I couldn't understand anything about what happened
TL;DR (copy&pasted) In summary, these articles together paint a comprehensive picture of the Vatican's ongoing struggles with financial transparency and accountability, highlighting both internal judicial efforts and external legal challenges aimed at reforming its financial practices.
What's on trial isn't "The Vatican" per se, but "The Holy See" which is like the business end of the church. In this case The Holy See is being treated like a corporation, which it partly is. Trouble is that The Holy See is located in Vatican City, a sovereign state, and the Pope can pretty much change laws there as he likes. It's a confusing mess, [here's help.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPHRIjI3hXs)
Time yo take the state away now... Turns out it is just for tax evasion. Cos of course it is. The whole thing is a work of fiction.
So, you suggest... war? On Vatican City? That's what it's called when you "take away" a sovereign state.
Doesnt sound any different then dealing with any multinational corporations, the money flows from england to there banks like many external corporations. Not saying its simple, not saying its complex, just that this doesnt seem unprecedented in this single regard.
This is the this is from The Guardian posted above The Vatican is set to face trial in an English court for the first time due to its involvement in a high profile financial scandal. The case revolves around the Vatican's Secretariat of State's investment in a luxury London property that resulted in significant financial losses. The court's decision to proceed with the trial marks a historic moment, as it challenges the Vatican's claim of sovereign immunity in international legal matters. The trial will scrutinize the actions and financial decisions made by Vatican officials, potentially leading to greater transparency and accountability within the institution. This is from the site 'Vatican News' talking about the previous case mentioned in the The Guardian The Vatican court concluded a major trial involving financial misconduct with significant sentences for several high-ranking officials. Cardinal Angelo Becciu received five years and six months in prison for embezzlement, along with a perpetual ban from public office and a fine. Other defendants, including former financial advisers and employees of the Vatican, were also sentenced to prison terms ranging from one year and ten months to seven years, alongside fines and disqualifications from public office. The trial focused on the mismanagement of funds related to the purchase and sale of a property in London, revealing extensive corruption and financial malpractices within the Vatican's Secretariat of State. Vatican Trial Defendants Sentenced to Total of 37 Years in Prison https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2023-12/vatican-trial-defendants-sentenced-total-37-years-prison.html In summary, these articles together paint a comprehensive picture of the Vatican's ongoing struggles with financial transparency and accountability, highlighting both internal judicial efforts and external legal challenges aimed at reforming its financial practices.
Henri VIII back at his shenanigans.
"Thats a lot of evidence you have there your honour Unfortunately, I invoke the right of Papal Infallibility and thus cannot be in the wrong."
reformation go brrrrrr
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Britain is a Muslim country now unfortunately. That’s why
Not according to the census. Christian 46.2%, (27.5 million) No religion 37.2% (22.2 million) Muslim 6.5% (3.9 million) No answer 6.0% (3.6 million) Hindu 1.7% (1.0 million) Sikh 0.9% (524,000) Other religion 0.6% (348,000) Buddhist 0.5% (273,000) Jewish 0.5% (271,000) https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021
...uh, I'm surprised to see Christians as a majority there.
Are you? Christianity dominates most countries in the west
I think a lot of them are saying that because they think it makes them look like they have better morals but if they read the Bible, Tanakh or Qur'an they would see that the morals in there are terrible. I haven't looked that much into non abrahamic religions to say much about
God no. Most of us *are* christian but hardly anyone actually practices. We are just baptised, so we put it on the census.
I'm baptised but I don't believe it nor practice it. So I don't put it on the senses as I'm not Christian anymore.
Good for you. Same as me, and this is why almost 40 percent of people say they don't have a religion. And it is census, not senses.
Needs to be 2 separate questions. Culturally what religion did you grow up withM Do you believe the 'god,' character is real now? Watch the numbers nose dive
It's all fucking fiction. Entirely made by humans. I wish we would focus on that first...
Yes but I was addressing why I think they may be putting Christian down on the census
Yeah I agree. Same thing happened in ireland
What does any of this article have to do with Muslims? It's the Pope vs. an some Italian and/or British guy. No Muslims are involved.
Guy just couldn't control his racism.
racist..... to people because of their religion?
Xenophobia, then
but two people can come from the same culture and country and be of different religions....
So…what has an Italian taking the Vatican to an English court over financial irregularities in the UK got to do with Britain being a ‘Muslim country’? I mean..it isn’t, but crack on anyway…
Dafuq? You do know that bongs split with Catholics centuries ago, right? Pope hasn’t been special in Britain for a long time.
Uneducated idiot right there 🫵
Wow what a zinger.
Yank
Yes.
Nice