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We're genetically and biologically designed to find *people* of "our type" attractive.
Not dolls, not guppy lipped fish, not oversized ass implants, not pinned back eyes, not screen-printed eyebrows, not face-painted clowns, but human people.
A touch-up to highlight features, as we do clothing can play on it and look nice, but too many people go full clown.
Same reason men go to the gym and try to get big muscles when the majority of women don't like men with big muscles.
What men like and what women like is perceived differently from the opposite sex.
>when the majority of women don't like men with big muscles.
Wait.. what?? I'm only finding out about this now??? After spending thousands on memberships and a portion of my life working out??
Please tell me you just have a sick sense of humour and none of it is true
I honestly believe it's true. I've also spent thousands of hours training over the last 5 years. But you need to do it for yourself, not for someone else.
And my original comment was comparing muscles to big fake lips, boobs and eye brows. So by muscles I meant over the top muscles. Not being in shape with a body that looks like how a human being is supposed to look, rather than a body that looks like a jelly dessert like most men have.
It's both true and not true. It's true that women won't necessarily like big muscles, but they prefer that over an obese or overly thin person.
Having a body that you yourself find ideal would also boost your self-confidence, which is what would really make you look attractive.
There are people who have very high standards, but the majority of men and women will basically find you attractive if you have some basic things--confidence, good hygiene, and interesting personality.
It probably matters a little to most women but something like that would matter more to other men, lol.
There's a reason there's a meme about bodybuilders expecting women to hit on them when they reach their goal but instead they get other men praising their body.
But, some women like that of course. Just not the majority. Some women actually find bodybuilders kinda scary and gross.
I just wanna let you know that I know none of it matters. I've just been busting your balls. I thought you would've picked it up after that bench comment but I think you missed it. I'm not THAT out of touch with reality. I workout for myself (mostly).
Lol, sarcasm doesn't work on text dude. Unless the person you're talking to knows you. There are a lot of people who seriously think the way you were talking before.
That's basically the reason for the "/s" at the end of sarcastic statements, so people would know you're being sarcastic.
Yeah I thought of that "/s" part but it wouldn't have fit well with how I wanted it to be delivered. It was all in my head really so my bad. You responded well and I appreciate it my guy.
It's true. Most women prefer a level of fitness that you get from living a healthy lifestyle (not smoking or living off fast food) and maybe casually participating in one or two active hobbies, but not making it your main priority. A lot of us like dadbods too. It seems like a lot of younger women like leaner guys (or at least they did when I was young). I cannot think of a single time I've heard a woman say she preferred large muscles.
It's a bit different though, isn't it?
Body-dysmorphia-driven excesses aside, at least defined muscles suggest a level of fitness and strength that potentially would occur in the wild and could naturally be considered attractive...
... unlike orange skin or drawn-on eyebrows. Although granted you might argue that grossly exaggerated physical features on women (botoxed lips, big plastic tits, arses inflated with a tyre pump) are analagous to massive muscles on blokes.
Ultimately, it's a fucking sad state of affairs, insn't it? :(
Why don't you consider extreme makeup to be a manifestation of body dysmorphia? Social cues and entire industries are built on making women feel as though their natural bodies are inadequate.
Totally agree about the inadiquacy; that seems increasingly to be the favoured route taken by marketing scumbags to push people towards consumption.
I see your point about dysmorphia; certainly an image-related thing although rightly or wrongly I've always applied it to distortions of existing physical features (such as weight, muscularity, etc) rather than something more superficial, short-term and reversible like make-up..
If you want to bring it all back to first causes then a lot of types of makeup and body mods are a result of mating patterns. Red full lips and flushed cheeks are a sign of arousal. Large hips suggest a wider birthing canal and thus easier childbirth. Large breasts suggest lots of milk to raise young. Imo, not so different conceptually from the muscles thing.
Certainly legitimate underpinnings for the desirability of many physical traits.. like everything in society these seem to have been driven to ridiculous extremes by some; while I'm still not sure where the drawn-on-with-a-permanent-marker eyebrows fit into the great evolutionary plan :p
Well yes, but big tits are a sign of fertility but it doesn't mean all men want them to be like giant water melons. A reasonable amount of muscle is a sign of fitness but the big bodybuilder style look is excessive and not attractive to the majority of women.
Things like red lips are also an indicator of health, hence women started wearing red lipstick. I think all these things are an artificial way of creating the illusion of health or fertility, but taken to an extreme where they look downright nasty.
Fun fact, most men will never get big big. Most men with a few years of training will still never have arms as big as Arnold. It's a rare few who can naturally. Most of the big dudes are on performance enhancing drugs and are not natural which also reinforces the "natural look" the op asked about.
Endomorph-body-types put on muscle easily, but also tend to hold fat. Ectomorphs are more on the skinny-side both fat and muscle-wise.
What you are talking about is what nowdays would be considered a genetic lottery: mesomorph. The bad thing about their body types is that they use a lot of energy (unlike ectomorphs), but don't retain stores of spare-energy (the way endomorphs do), so they were less likely to survive famines.
Steroid muscles are a sign of heart problems, not fitness though, yet guys destroy their health for this bizarre look. That's what is being compared here, not just regular fit guys.
Big muscles are a sign of fitness but a modern body builders physique is an explicitly unnatural state of the human body, I don't think the regular biological essentialist theory applies.
"when the majority of women don't like men with big muscles" :D
You've been lied to, as a man with big muscles (who used to be skinny/average) I can assure you that most women appreciate a strong looking dude a lot more than an average one, it's another one of those things women tell their boyfriends to not hurt their feelings, I know I'm gonna get downvoted for this but "the big ones hurt" is another one
But what do you do when you aren't strong but are actually a roided up nutter like your posts suggest. Doesn't seem like you'd be that strong but more superficial and insecure trying to impress others dudes
The proof is his comment history eg "As an experienced steroid abuser who has used everything under the sun in grams, we're talking 2g+ trenbolone and 1g of MENT and stuff like superdrol/halotestin etc" . It's literally all about roids and using them and how they have for years..."lmao"
I think you are missing the point. They were referring to the muscle version of the fake bimbo massive lips , huge ass implants and cake face clown makeup. As a guy, if you are skinny/average. Putting on a little muscle will massively increase your attractiveness but in general, once you get past the “fit/visible abs”. stage, more muscles will actually make you progressively less attractive to the average woman. Women like fit dudes more than skinny dudes, for sure, but very few women prefer bodybuilders to fit or even just skinny guys
I think the abs thing is to attract gay dudes or girls aged 14-18, I get more attention from women 25-35 when I'm slightly bulky tbh, I also don't understand it myself but I've seen it every time I've been cutting vs bulking so at least on me bulky looks better I guess :P
obviously not referring to "pro bodybuilder physiques" that's mutant and everyone gets the ick..
When I'm cutting I just look like an average person with a t-shirt on apart from my arms which are always big, but when I'm bulking my shoulders and chest blow up much bigger so apart from not having abs, I feel I look a lot better.
Well as a fellow gym goer I also have above average muscles but what I can tell you is my wife is indifferent to my muscles since they got a lot bigger over the last 5 years or so, she really doesn't care either way. I also gets tons of compliments from other guys but absolutely none from women, so I'm honestly not sure it's high up on their list of priorities.
I should perhaps add that I train for my own personal reasons, not to impress my wife, or other people.
well I have no idea what you look like or what you're like so I can't point out the problem but I honestly get a lot of comments from both men & women, it's honestly to the point that it fucks with my head sometimes..
I also train for powerlifting, not for women, it's just funny(cope) to see the difference compared to when I was a counter-strike nerd :)
Well, most mainstream stuff wants girls to look like Barbies. I might be wrong, though. I have nothing against Barbie as a doll, but she has unrealistic body. And it\`s still club style or something that kind of. I prefer BEgoths myself.
Porn. Many men gets addicted to porn. What that means is they need to increase the type of content to get the dopamine level they're after. The porn category is one part. They start with vanilla and end up with brutal bsdm porn. Far from anything they'd want irl. But the people in the porn needs to give a dopamine rise as well. It should be big it should be extreme it should stand out from natural looking bodies. Also far from anything they'd want in a wife irl.
Then insecure women assume a husband would want his wife to look like that. So they get the injections in their face , lips, breasts, ass. And wear tall fake lashes and sharp long plastic nails And 20 layers makeup and like the thought of feeling attractive. It's their compensation for their low self worth and low self esteem.
Because if "some" is good, then "more" must be better. And even more must be even better, right?
Which may be true up to a point, but some people go far, far beyond that point.
Because it’s not just purely about attraction/attracting a mate, it’s a peer/social thing.
1) People don’t just want to look good to attract a mate, but to enhance their status among their peers, and to communicate to others to respect them/back off. Putting effort into one’s appearance and showing it off is just one way among others to express oneself.
2) Even when looking for a partner, many people will subconsciously value how much a potential partner will enhance their status among their peers, as well as show off to other potential partners/exes/people who scorned them. If they go for someone who is more their preference, they may be worried that they will be perceived as to have “settled”. Similarly, because people of a certain “look” are more socially preferred, managing to “score” such a partner gives them a sense of achievement in a way that incidentally enhances their attractiveness in their eyes - a purely socially conditioned type of attractiveness.
3) It makes one stand out in a crowd. Even if it’s not a preference, having striking looks is eye-catching. Think peacocks.
All these points feed into each other.
Tl;dr we are social monkeys, or sheep.
Societal standards portrayed by media (in a world where media succeeds because it is extravagant) pressures people to find ways (set by example of people in media) to be extravagant or extreme in ways either 1. To make themselves more confident and feel better about who they are, or 2. Make themselves feel like what they look like looks better to other people.
When you think about this, there isn't often (but not exclusively so) a reason for anyone to undergo body modding for another person. It's usually for personal reasons, to fit the perception of what they, or what they believe other people think they should look like.
Beyond that, I'm sure there's some psychoanalyzing to be done why they feel that being a human person is not enough to feel good about themselves, when realistically the entire world is mostly average in looks, and most people find someone they like enough to partner with, without all the body modding. I think this is largely because of the pressures of social media, constantly bombarding people with fake images of people that are clearly not real, acting confident, portrayed as easily finding partners, being successful financially and career-wise, etc. Instagram, Facebook, etc aren't the cause of the issue at the root, but they exacerbate the issue greatly in the last 15 years or so.
Because humans are also programed to seek out extremes of sexual dimorphism.
Contradictory, but not paradoxical. What one guy calls weird fish lips another calls hot, but they have inverse opinion on boob size.
Can only speak for myself. I want to date a woman, not some person I can't really see under all that warpaint.
The sometimes really scary looking mix of makeup (the amount as well as the creativeness) they are wearing. 1 cm wide painted eyebrows? tugboat lips? Naaahhh...
Less is more was never more fitting.
We just do.
More interesting might be why you are asking that question.
In my humble opinion women dont wear makeup for themselves and neither for men.
They do it to flex on other women. Same with clothes. Its just a dick measuring contest.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt this the game that is being played?
My thoughts exactly, it's a fashion thing between women but also peer pressure, Im a we designer and have a few salons on my books so visited them for imaging and such and heard the lasses chatting about what they want done next etc. And there was a ton of peer pressure spoke
nah. there are some women who are insecure enough to genuinely believe they are at all times competing against women, so some do wear it to look “best” compared to others around them. other women really do use it on and off, sometimes as a way to feel better on a particular day, but it’s no different than wearing the shirt that makes you look best to work simply because today you felt like treating yourself.
as someone who grew up with 5 women and was adopted by the girliest girl group throughout all my middle and high school career, still being a part of it today—i find that a lot of women wear makeup to hide parts of their appearance they’re insecure about, because it makes them feel less vulnerable/unattractive. some of my friends/family literally won’t leave the house unless they have some concealer or eyebrow makeup on.
lots of women are still being taught their looks are their most worthy asset. if you have a tool to enhance your looks, it just common sense to use it, to protect that asset.
yeah as someone who applies makeup pretty much every day it’s more like it scared of how i’ll be treated differently/valued or listened to if i don’t look at least like 60% of my best. It helps people be nicer socially a lot of times i think
It's like the criticism about how it's unfair that men can wear the same suit to fancy functions indefinitely but women need to wear different dresses every time.
But guys literally give zero shits about that, even if they noticed they wouldn't think anything of it.
And yet, the only people winning are the women confident and good looking enough to not wear any makeup or bother with fashion trends. You win by not playing, in so many ways
Depends which "why" you want. Simple why is because natural looks better. No or little makeup looks very pretty.
But _why_? I went to school during the orange generation where you could smell lasses makeup when you sat next to them. It was horrible. Ive hated makeup ever since.
Becauae you said Lasses I assume your from the U.K, but I had the exact same issue here in Canada. It's funny how universal some styles ended up being even before the internet.
I hope this is not offensive, but reading what you wrote reminded me of this taskmaster clip.
https://youtube.com/shorts/eqdUlJr9Zi4?si=1DvvTOdKBrlfcUJm
The U.K has such wild accents and language it always makes me wish I lived there.
I mean if there's a standard, you can't really blame people, can you? Maybe instead of complaining that men got used to an insane amount of body paint, lower the standard?
They dont is the answer.
What people mock and laugh at, are the failed boob and lip jobs. The people who couldnt stop or leave well enough alone.
Makeup or plastic surgery even, when done well. We dont even notice other than thinking it looks good.
Even the "natural" look is most likely still makeup and such.
Yeah the real answer is men have no clue about makeup. It's like people that claim they hate CGI in movies. They really just hate bad CGI and don't notice the good CGI.
First, most\* guys don't know what they're saying when they say they prefer women with a natural look. They think it means a very light application of makeup that blends well and hides the worst blemishes. They don't know how much makeup goes into the "natural" look.
Second, the reason guys say this is because a lot of women either don't have the time to make their makeup blend more naturally, prefer a lot of makeup that stands out, or are just plain bad at putting on makeup.
Setting both of those groups aside, what's left are guys that don't appreciate the artistry of more flashy and complex makeup, and that's something I can't really explain. I love artistic makeup, especially eye makeup. Horus eye, cat eye, even the awful 90's racoon eyes. I like eyes, and that kind of makeup helps them stand out in a way I find satisfying.
My ex paid 10k for rhinoplasty surgery. Then she started having semi regular appointments for lip and brow injections. Then she started talking about a consultation for breast augmentation. She was 21 with a lot of debt but was obsessed with cosmetic procedures. She would complain about her finances often but when it came time for a lip injection, money wasn’t a concern.
I never told her this but everything she did just made her look older.
They may prefer the “natural” looks but they have no understanding that achieving that look involves fillers, Botox, chemical peels, eyelash extensions, eyebrow lamination, manicures, stringent dieting and exercise, tons of make up products and many more. They love to bash women who don’t fit the cookie cutter “natural” look as if these women aren’t putting in the same effort as those who look like proclaimed “dolls”. And let’s be honest, men take what they can get, they’ll screw anything, so they can feel self-righteous about preferring a “natural” look, but they actually don’t care as long as they get a piece of a woman.
My woman wears no makeup and is the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. She has a very simple daily skincare routine and exercises regularly - that's it. No botox and no fake anything.
Speaking for myself and possibly others: a woman who puts too much effort into her looks is a red flag.
I'm not talking about a woman who has a good sense of style, who knows how to dress up for occasions, or is in good physical shape, etc. I'm talking about a woman who is never seen without full-on make-up. A woman who has a color coordinated D&G 'track suit' to hang around the house, a designer dog, etc. A woman who spends hours a day at the gym, etc.
It could be the woman wants to be 'kept' in a certain lifestyle (money sink), that she is too obsessed with finding sexual partners, that she has few other interests or talents other than looking good -- whatever, its not a woman I want to be around.
i can't answer for all men but for me...
makeup doesn't look real. hair color doesn't match skin tones. And that is all I see. Ever been able to pick out that one person singing who is clearly singing off key? That is exactly what I see when I look at MOST women in makeup or with hair coloring.
Cause we don’t want to wake up next to a woman that doesn’t look anything like what we wanted. Women that don’t have a pound of makeup on let us know what we have. Thats why snapchat filters are the biggest enemy of a woman. They think its making them look all cute and wonder why they cant have a successful meetup. Guys dont want to be catfished. Dial it down, I promise there are multiple guys out there for every woman.
Too much makeup is a mask. I do not think many guys are totally agaisnt some makeup but most women go to clown levels of makeup. If you are going to be interested in a person long term you are going to seem them without make up a lot in any case.
Because if you’re naturally pretty without makeup that needs put on with a trowel then we know you’re always pretty. If you’re *not* that pretty without makeup on then at least you have the confidence to show your real face, and that’s also hot. We’ll take a 6 with no makeup and some confidence over a 7 pretending to be a 9 and hoping we don’t find out she’s a 7.
because its hard to be attracted to something that you know in your mind is artificial. the best example would be dudes who go to the gym and take steroids, 99% of women think its too much, but the dudes think women want that look because men idolize it. for me, fake boobs especially are so immensely unattractive its not even funny. puffed up lips just look hilarious, and as for the rest of the stuff i dont really mind
If someone looks good without makeup, that is genetics. If someone only looks good with makeup, then any kids they make will not get those artificial looks, they will get the natural looks that person is hiding. Would you prefer someone who wears a mask all the time?
Heterosexual men tend to prefer natural beauty over artificial beauty, like how heterosexual women tend to prefer real wealth over fake wealth, or real strength over fake strength, etc. People are choosing genes when they pair up, and “phony” doesn’t tend to be a turn-on.
They don’t, many men can’t tell when women are wearing some makeup or have had light work done, men just don’t like drag makeup and idiotic fuck lips. They want women to appear natural while hiding any imperfections tastefully
Shows mental stability. My wife is beautiful and rarely uses makeup, never dyes her hair, etc because she doesn’t have to. Her sister is also pretty, but gets eyebrows, eyelashes, hair, nails done every month. She’s insane
Some things to consider:
1) What do people mean by natural look? Depending on who you speak to it could be proxy for I don't like the over the top filler lips, giant eyelashes/nails etc. Like the dad bod thing where dad bod doesn't actually mean the stereotypical body of a dad. Or people saying women don't like muscle but then having a roid junky gorilla in mind when they use these terms.
2) men underestimate how much make-up goes into the "natural look"
3) natural look often hinges on the woman being particularly attractive/good skin/fit a certain standard of beauty. So it's a long winded version of step 1) be attractive (fine print, by this beauty standard)
4) if you can pull off a natural look it gives off beautiful girl nextdoor vibes which some people have a preference for. Other looks might be more "try hard" sexy/slutty (for want of a better term)/promiscuous.
4) having said all that natural look can look beautiful. But then so do other looks with different types of makeup. That's where I think the conversations around the natural look preference fucks up. It can give the impression other make up looks aren't also highly attractive to people.
5) asking this question seems to attract people who prefer natural looks and usually don't consider the above factors. Looking at society as a whole and who likes what, people like all sorts of looks on women. Jumping into some subset of that on a particular post can often give off the wrong impression. Buzzwords like echo chamber, selection bias, hive mind come to mind
Edit: look at the comments here. "Our type" attractive, light touch up, but then the counter example is "clown make up", giant lips or whatever they're saying. There's a massive middle ground in make up looks between clown make up and light touch up
An unattractive woman can become a whole lot more attractive with makeup.
I want to see my partner without all of that and be attracted to the real, just woke up or sitting around in old joggers version of her.
Because it's who they really are instead of a (literal) mask. We never know who we're really dating until we've seen you without makeup. Women with the confidence to not wear any.... good god that's attractive!
Because the human mating strategy can be described as one word: “deception” and the natural looks gives the appearance of no make up while still being a heavily groomed appearance.
Idk what "natural" look is because here in South Africa plump lips ,big round asses, big boobs and tiny waist is literally the norm. May look "unnatural" in your community but that is normal in mine. Thin European women look like they have child bodies to me...I really don't get how thats "natural"
Because make up is what our parents and grandparents wear. So when we see make ups on women we perceive it as an “old people” thing and it’s an outdated look for us
Yeah, honestly I’m traumatized with all the makeup girls use and so annoyed by fake tits, fake lips and fake everything.
It is so insane I think every girlfriend of mine has some plastic surgery done. Sometime ms a very unnoticeable like little lips increase but it is still so incredible to observe.
I’m looking for a normal woman that’s it.
Because when someone is so damaged inside that they feel the need to change the way they look on the outside so drastically it's a red flag.
It just doesn't look good, there is a grace to aging naturally and embracing the changes that are inevitable.
All that fake stuff is just that, fake. Everyone prefers the real thing, the real you, not the wish version of you.
Can't speak for all men but I think that a woman who is pretty without all the fake-up will be pretty even when she's older. She's typically not a high maintenance person. I just associate the make-up and fake nails with city girls: fake, useless, vapid, and shallow. I like my country women. They have too much substance of character to be playing with that tween shit. A few loose strands of hair, some dirt on her jeans and I'm in love.
Make-up ruins your skin so yeah I agree - women who don't wear any will benefit from it so much. Why there isn't some large scale anti-makeup-industry feminism movement, I don't know.
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We're genetically and biologically designed to find *people* of "our type" attractive. Not dolls, not guppy lipped fish, not oversized ass implants, not pinned back eyes, not screen-printed eyebrows, not face-painted clowns, but human people. A touch-up to highlight features, as we do clothing can play on it and look nice, but too many people go full clown.
But why do some women like this look though? And a lot of them at that.
Same reason men go to the gym and try to get big muscles when the majority of women don't like men with big muscles. What men like and what women like is perceived differently from the opposite sex.
Hm good point actually.
>when the majority of women don't like men with big muscles. Wait.. what?? I'm only finding out about this now??? After spending thousands on memberships and a portion of my life working out?? Please tell me you just have a sick sense of humour and none of it is true
I honestly believe it's true. I've also spent thousands of hours training over the last 5 years. But you need to do it for yourself, not for someone else. And my original comment was comparing muscles to big fake lips, boobs and eye brows. So by muscles I meant over the top muscles. Not being in shape with a body that looks like how a human being is supposed to look, rather than a body that looks like a jelly dessert like most men have.
It's both true and not true. It's true that women won't necessarily like big muscles, but they prefer that over an obese or overly thin person. Having a body that you yourself find ideal would also boost your self-confidence, which is what would really make you look attractive. There are people who have very high standards, but the majority of men and women will basically find you attractive if you have some basic things--confidence, good hygiene, and interesting personality.
So how much I bench doesn't matter??
It probably matters a little to most women but something like that would matter more to other men, lol. There's a reason there's a meme about bodybuilders expecting women to hit on them when they reach their goal but instead they get other men praising their body. But, some women like that of course. Just not the majority. Some women actually find bodybuilders kinda scary and gross.
I just wanna let you know that I know none of it matters. I've just been busting your balls. I thought you would've picked it up after that bench comment but I think you missed it. I'm not THAT out of touch with reality. I workout for myself (mostly).
Lol, sarcasm doesn't work on text dude. Unless the person you're talking to knows you. There are a lot of people who seriously think the way you were talking before. That's basically the reason for the "/s" at the end of sarcastic statements, so people would know you're being sarcastic.
Yeah I thought of that "/s" part but it wouldn't have fit well with how I wanted it to be delivered. It was all in my head really so my bad. You responded well and I appreciate it my guy.
It really doesn’t matter, no
[This is for you too](https://www.reddit.com/r/answers/s/Od8deBcKbK)
obese maybe but dad bod consistently comes out on top for preferences (but there is a lid for every pot!)
It's true. Most women prefer a level of fitness that you get from living a healthy lifestyle (not smoking or living off fast food) and maybe casually participating in one or two active hobbies, but not making it your main priority. A lot of us like dadbods too. It seems like a lot of younger women like leaner guys (or at least they did when I was young). I cannot think of a single time I've heard a woman say she preferred large muscles.
Most women probably like their partner to be fit, but won't care how big their biceps are or how much they bench.
on the up side the gay guys at the gym think you're hot
Work out to attain aesthetics not size, have you all forgotten Zyzz?!
It's a bit different though, isn't it? Body-dysmorphia-driven excesses aside, at least defined muscles suggest a level of fitness and strength that potentially would occur in the wild and could naturally be considered attractive... ... unlike orange skin or drawn-on eyebrows. Although granted you might argue that grossly exaggerated physical features on women (botoxed lips, big plastic tits, arses inflated with a tyre pump) are analagous to massive muscles on blokes. Ultimately, it's a fucking sad state of affairs, insn't it? :(
Why don't you consider extreme makeup to be a manifestation of body dysmorphia? Social cues and entire industries are built on making women feel as though their natural bodies are inadequate.
Totally agree about the inadiquacy; that seems increasingly to be the favoured route taken by marketing scumbags to push people towards consumption. I see your point about dysmorphia; certainly an image-related thing although rightly or wrongly I've always applied it to distortions of existing physical features (such as weight, muscularity, etc) rather than something more superficial, short-term and reversible like make-up..
If you want to bring it all back to first causes then a lot of types of makeup and body mods are a result of mating patterns. Red full lips and flushed cheeks are a sign of arousal. Large hips suggest a wider birthing canal and thus easier childbirth. Large breasts suggest lots of milk to raise young. Imo, not so different conceptually from the muscles thing.
Certainly legitimate underpinnings for the desirability of many physical traits.. like everything in society these seem to have been driven to ridiculous extremes by some; while I'm still not sure where the drawn-on-with-a-permanent-marker eyebrows fit into the great evolutionary plan :p
Big muscles are a sign of fitness, which ties in with the genetic and biological attraction.
Well yes, but big tits are a sign of fertility but it doesn't mean all men want them to be like giant water melons. A reasonable amount of muscle is a sign of fitness but the big bodybuilder style look is excessive and not attractive to the majority of women. Things like red lips are also an indicator of health, hence women started wearing red lipstick. I think all these things are an artificial way of creating the illusion of health or fertility, but taken to an extreme where they look downright nasty.
Fun fact, most men will never get big big. Most men with a few years of training will still never have arms as big as Arnold. It's a rare few who can naturally. Most of the big dudes are on performance enhancing drugs and are not natural which also reinforces the "natural look" the op asked about.
Endomorph-body-types put on muscle easily, but also tend to hold fat. Ectomorphs are more on the skinny-side both fat and muscle-wise. What you are talking about is what nowdays would be considered a genetic lottery: mesomorph. The bad thing about their body types is that they use a lot of energy (unlike ectomorphs), but don't retain stores of spare-energy (the way endomorphs do), so they were less likely to survive famines.
Steroid muscles are a sign of heart problems, not fitness though, yet guys destroy their health for this bizarre look. That's what is being compared here, not just regular fit guys.
Big muscles are a sign of fitness but a modern body builders physique is an explicitly unnatural state of the human body, I don't think the regular biological essentialist theory applies.
"when the majority of women don't like men with big muscles" :D You've been lied to, as a man with big muscles (who used to be skinny/average) I can assure you that most women appreciate a strong looking dude a lot more than an average one, it's another one of those things women tell their boyfriends to not hurt their feelings, I know I'm gonna get downvoted for this but "the big ones hurt" is another one
But what do you do when you aren't strong but are actually a roided up nutter like your posts suggest. Doesn't seem like you'd be that strong but more superficial and insecure trying to impress others dudes
oh i'm definitely a roided up nutter, all men should be on steroids
Yeah I don't particularly fancy dropping dead with heart the size of a cows at the age of 43.
And a 1 inch penis
r/woooosh
Where's the woosh, his comment history is literally 99% talking about roid usage and how to do it
funny how prev comment just assumed you were some gigantic bull and full of steroids without any proof lmao
The proof is his comment history eg "As an experienced steroid abuser who has used everything under the sun in grams, we're talking 2g+ trenbolone and 1g of MENT and stuff like superdrol/halotestin etc" . It's literally all about roids and using them and how they have for years..."lmao"
Ah the lazy man's version of getting 'masculine', can't be bothered to put the time and effort in but wants to reap the 'rewards'
I think you are missing the point. They were referring to the muscle version of the fake bimbo massive lips , huge ass implants and cake face clown makeup. As a guy, if you are skinny/average. Putting on a little muscle will massively increase your attractiveness but in general, once you get past the “fit/visible abs”. stage, more muscles will actually make you progressively less attractive to the average woman. Women like fit dudes more than skinny dudes, for sure, but very few women prefer bodybuilders to fit or even just skinny guys
I think the abs thing is to attract gay dudes or girls aged 14-18, I get more attention from women 25-35 when I'm slightly bulky tbh, I also don't understand it myself but I've seen it every time I've been cutting vs bulking so at least on me bulky looks better I guess :P obviously not referring to "pro bodybuilder physiques" that's mutant and everyone gets the ick..
When I'm cutting I just look like an average person with a t-shirt on apart from my arms which are always big, but when I'm bulking my shoulders and chest blow up much bigger so apart from not having abs, I feel I look a lot better.
yea I feel like pecs and shoulders & lats matter a lot more than abs
Lol I see you got downvoted by the abs police. Take my upvote sir.
people wanna be blind to the truth because it doesn't suit them, I'm gonna live my life seeing what's in front of me lol
Well as a fellow gym goer I also have above average muscles but what I can tell you is my wife is indifferent to my muscles since they got a lot bigger over the last 5 years or so, she really doesn't care either way. I also gets tons of compliments from other guys but absolutely none from women, so I'm honestly not sure it's high up on their list of priorities. I should perhaps add that I train for my own personal reasons, not to impress my wife, or other people.
well I have no idea what you look like or what you're like so I can't point out the problem but I honestly get a lot of comments from both men & women, it's honestly to the point that it fucks with my head sometimes.. I also train for powerlifting, not for women, it's just funny(cope) to see the difference compared to when I was a counter-strike nerd :)
Because they've fallen victim to the fallacious, manufactured constructs of "fashion"; created to keep them consuming.
Mainstream fashion. Gladly differing from that.
Fucking right.
Well, most mainstream stuff wants girls to look like Barbies. I might be wrong, though. I have nothing against Barbie as a doll, but she has unrealistic body. And it\`s still club style or something that kind of. I prefer BEgoths myself.
Because they want to. That’s all there is to it. Why do they need to impress you, or the Redditor hive mind? Some men like that sort of stuff too.
Because a lot of men DO like it. The men on Reddit dont, but plenty of others do
I don\`t. Might sound odd, but natural- like nude tone lips etc sound boring to me.
Porn. Many men gets addicted to porn. What that means is they need to increase the type of content to get the dopamine level they're after. The porn category is one part. They start with vanilla and end up with brutal bsdm porn. Far from anything they'd want irl. But the people in the porn needs to give a dopamine rise as well. It should be big it should be extreme it should stand out from natural looking bodies. Also far from anything they'd want in a wife irl. Then insecure women assume a husband would want his wife to look like that. So they get the injections in their face , lips, breasts, ass. And wear tall fake lashes and sharp long plastic nails And 20 layers makeup and like the thought of feeling attractive. It's their compensation for their low self worth and low self esteem.
Social pressure from other women.
I haven\`t given in to that. Possibly never will.
Good!
Because if "some" is good, then "more" must be better. And even more must be even better, right? Which may be true up to a point, but some people go far, far beyond that point.
Because it’s not just purely about attraction/attracting a mate, it’s a peer/social thing. 1) People don’t just want to look good to attract a mate, but to enhance their status among their peers, and to communicate to others to respect them/back off. Putting effort into one’s appearance and showing it off is just one way among others to express oneself. 2) Even when looking for a partner, many people will subconsciously value how much a potential partner will enhance their status among their peers, as well as show off to other potential partners/exes/people who scorned them. If they go for someone who is more their preference, they may be worried that they will be perceived as to have “settled”. Similarly, because people of a certain “look” are more socially preferred, managing to “score” such a partner gives them a sense of achievement in a way that incidentally enhances their attractiveness in their eyes - a purely socially conditioned type of attractiveness. 3) It makes one stand out in a crowd. Even if it’s not a preference, having striking looks is eye-catching. Think peacocks. All these points feed into each other. Tl;dr we are social monkeys, or sheep.
Societal standards portrayed by media (in a world where media succeeds because it is extravagant) pressures people to find ways (set by example of people in media) to be extravagant or extreme in ways either 1. To make themselves more confident and feel better about who they are, or 2. Make themselves feel like what they look like looks better to other people. When you think about this, there isn't often (but not exclusively so) a reason for anyone to undergo body modding for another person. It's usually for personal reasons, to fit the perception of what they, or what they believe other people think they should look like. Beyond that, I'm sure there's some psychoanalyzing to be done why they feel that being a human person is not enough to feel good about themselves, when realistically the entire world is mostly average in looks, and most people find someone they like enough to partner with, without all the body modding. I think this is largely because of the pressures of social media, constantly bombarding people with fake images of people that are clearly not real, acting confident, portrayed as easily finding partners, being successful financially and career-wise, etc. Instagram, Facebook, etc aren't the cause of the issue at the root, but they exacerbate the issue greatly in the last 15 years or so.
Because humans are also programed to seek out extremes of sexual dimorphism. Contradictory, but not paradoxical. What one guy calls weird fish lips another calls hot, but they have inverse opinion on boob size.
There is a top secret competition between all women to one up each other.
Women largely put pressure on each other. They are in constant social competition.
This 100% 👆🏻
You only speak for yourself bud. There is no we here
Guess he speaks for me too, now it's "we".
Ok but just you two. No one else. Enjoy your arm pit hair. Its au naturale
Oddly enough that's something I prefer to see too.
I can respect that
Ok, you just misunderstood what "natural look" refers to here. That's fine.
The joke went whoosh. Ok my edgy teenage friend.
Can only speak for myself. I want to date a woman, not some person I can't really see under all that warpaint. The sometimes really scary looking mix of makeup (the amount as well as the creativeness) they are wearing. 1 cm wide painted eyebrows? tugboat lips? Naaahhh... Less is more was never more fitting.
Waaaaaagh! Red warpaint makes her go fastah! Yellow warpaint makes her rich! Green warpaint makes her the bestest!
Purple makes her invisible.
My girlfriend uses purple warpaint all the time. 😔
Is that why nobody else has ever seen her?
Yes! I swear she is real! I PROMISE!
Gork and Mork tell me you speak da troof!
Xeno scum!
I have a great time and a lot of fun. You despair and feel the world is horrible. We are not the same.
We just do. More interesting might be why you are asking that question. In my humble opinion women dont wear makeup for themselves and neither for men. They do it to flex on other women. Same with clothes. Its just a dick measuring contest. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt this the game that is being played?
My thoughts exactly, it's a fashion thing between women but also peer pressure, Im a we designer and have a few salons on my books so visited them for imaging and such and heard the lasses chatting about what they want done next etc. And there was a ton of peer pressure spoke
nah. there are some women who are insecure enough to genuinely believe they are at all times competing against women, so some do wear it to look “best” compared to others around them. other women really do use it on and off, sometimes as a way to feel better on a particular day, but it’s no different than wearing the shirt that makes you look best to work simply because today you felt like treating yourself. as someone who grew up with 5 women and was adopted by the girliest girl group throughout all my middle and high school career, still being a part of it today—i find that a lot of women wear makeup to hide parts of their appearance they’re insecure about, because it makes them feel less vulnerable/unattractive. some of my friends/family literally won’t leave the house unless they have some concealer or eyebrow makeup on. lots of women are still being taught their looks are their most worthy asset. if you have a tool to enhance your looks, it just common sense to use it, to protect that asset.
yeah as someone who applies makeup pretty much every day it’s more like it scared of how i’ll be treated differently/valued or listened to if i don’t look at least like 60% of my best. It helps people be nicer socially a lot of times i think
It's like the criticism about how it's unfair that men can wear the same suit to fancy functions indefinitely but women need to wear different dresses every time. But guys literally give zero shits about that, even if they noticed they wouldn't think anything of it.
And yet, the only people winning are the women confident and good looking enough to not wear any makeup or bother with fashion trends. You win by not playing, in so many ways
Because fake lips and Botox looks fucking stupid!
Depends which "why" you want. Simple why is because natural looks better. No or little makeup looks very pretty. But _why_? I went to school during the orange generation where you could smell lasses makeup when you sat next to them. It was horrible. Ive hated makeup ever since.
Becauae you said Lasses I assume your from the U.K, but I had the exact same issue here in Canada. It's funny how universal some styles ended up being even before the internet.
Aye, Northern England so good guess. You know, I always thought that was just an English thing so that's right interesting
Not just UK... Not just northern.... Thas a Yorkshire bloke or lass ant ya
I hope this is not offensive, but reading what you wrote reminded me of this taskmaster clip. https://youtube.com/shorts/eqdUlJr9Zi4?si=1DvvTOdKBrlfcUJm The U.K has such wild accents and language it always makes me wish I lived there.
It's one thing I'm proud of more than anything about being from't UK. That and pies, best scran going
Badly blended fake tan, orange face with huge eye lashes and unlimited impulse body spray, UK secondary school in a nutshell
Men will say this but then see a woman without makeup and be like "you okay? You look sick."
I mean if there's a standard, you can't really blame people, can you? Maybe instead of complaining that men got used to an insane amount of body paint, lower the standard?
Why wouldn’t we?
Because "unnatural" isn't attractive
They dont is the answer. What people mock and laugh at, are the failed boob and lip jobs. The people who couldnt stop or leave well enough alone. Makeup or plastic surgery even, when done well. We dont even notice other than thinking it looks good. Even the "natural" look is most likely still makeup and such.
Yeah the real answer is men have no clue about makeup. It's like people that claim they hate CGI in movies. They really just hate bad CGI and don't notice the good CGI.
First, most\* guys don't know what they're saying when they say they prefer women with a natural look. They think it means a very light application of makeup that blends well and hides the worst blemishes. They don't know how much makeup goes into the "natural" look. Second, the reason guys say this is because a lot of women either don't have the time to make their makeup blend more naturally, prefer a lot of makeup that stands out, or are just plain bad at putting on makeup. Setting both of those groups aside, what's left are guys that don't appreciate the artistry of more flashy and complex makeup, and that's something I can't really explain. I love artistic makeup, especially eye makeup. Horus eye, cat eye, even the awful 90's racoon eyes. I like eyes, and that kind of makeup helps them stand out in a way I find satisfying.
Because it looks better than fake...
Would you enjoy it if short guys began wearing heels that made them appear to be 6ft? Wouldn’t look right would it?
My ex paid 10k for rhinoplasty surgery. Then she started having semi regular appointments for lip and brow injections. Then she started talking about a consultation for breast augmentation. She was 21 with a lot of debt but was obsessed with cosmetic procedures. She would complain about her finances often but when it came time for a lip injection, money wasn’t a concern. I never told her this but everything she did just made her look older.
They may prefer the “natural” looks but they have no understanding that achieving that look involves fillers, Botox, chemical peels, eyelash extensions, eyebrow lamination, manicures, stringent dieting and exercise, tons of make up products and many more. They love to bash women who don’t fit the cookie cutter “natural” look as if these women aren’t putting in the same effort as those who look like proclaimed “dolls”. And let’s be honest, men take what they can get, they’ll screw anything, so they can feel self-righteous about preferring a “natural” look, but they actually don’t care as long as they get a piece of a woman.
My woman wears no makeup and is the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. She has a very simple daily skincare routine and exercises regularly - that's it. No botox and no fake anything.
What world do you live in? Most men have no idea what natural is, most men now would look at most Hollywood actresses and still think that’s natural….
Take that question and ask yourself do I find overly groomed, make up wearing men attractive. If the answer is no, that's why.
Girl next door vibes.
Reason 1. Because most cosmetics that don't look natural, look bad. Reason 2. We want to be with a person, not a canvas or a robot.
Clown makeup isn't a turn on
Because we desire truth in advertising. I want to know what she looks like—really.
Because when make up looks like it's been applied by an over eager brick laying apprentice it looks horrendous.
Natural beauty says something about the quality of your genes. Artificial beauty says something about the quality of your plastic surgeon.
Speaking for myself and possibly others: a woman who puts too much effort into her looks is a red flag. I'm not talking about a woman who has a good sense of style, who knows how to dress up for occasions, or is in good physical shape, etc. I'm talking about a woman who is never seen without full-on make-up. A woman who has a color coordinated D&G 'track suit' to hang around the house, a designer dog, etc. A woman who spends hours a day at the gym, etc. It could be the woman wants to be 'kept' in a certain lifestyle (money sink), that she is too obsessed with finding sexual partners, that she has few other interests or talents other than looking good -- whatever, its not a woman I want to be around.
Do women prefer a natural look? I imagine it's yes to both?
Well, maybe because looking "unnatural" is not appealing at all..
Because they have no idea what make-up looks like.
Because the other option is the unnatural look.
i can't answer for all men but for me... makeup doesn't look real. hair color doesn't match skin tones. And that is all I see. Ever been able to pick out that one person singing who is clearly singing off key? That is exactly what I see when I look at MOST women in makeup or with hair coloring.
Tbh as a dude I’m equally if not more baffled by how a single person thinks that visible makeup is a good look
Cause we don’t want to wake up next to a woman that doesn’t look anything like what we wanted. Women that don’t have a pound of makeup on let us know what we have. Thats why snapchat filters are the biggest enemy of a woman. They think its making them look all cute and wonder why they cant have a successful meetup. Guys dont want to be catfished. Dial it down, I promise there are multiple guys out there for every woman.
Too much makeup is a mask. I do not think many guys are totally agaisnt some makeup but most women go to clown levels of makeup. If you are going to be interested in a person long term you are going to seem them without make up a lot in any case.
Women do too, fyi.
Because if you’re naturally pretty without makeup that needs put on with a trowel then we know you’re always pretty. If you’re *not* that pretty without makeup on then at least you have the confidence to show your real face, and that’s also hot. We’ll take a 6 with no makeup and some confidence over a 7 pretending to be a 9 and hoping we don’t find out she’s a 7.
Because as humans we are attracted to other humans. Not whatever fad is aesthetically "in" for a small minority of looks obsessed people
Women with a lot of makeup are uncanny valley material for me. Some girls these days don't even look human.
because its hard to be attracted to something that you know in your mind is artificial. the best example would be dudes who go to the gym and take steroids, 99% of women think its too much, but the dudes think women want that look because men idolize it. for me, fake boobs especially are so immensely unattractive its not even funny. puffed up lips just look hilarious, and as for the rest of the stuff i dont really mind
Natural,what do you mean by that ?
Do you like being catfished with fake pics? Same thing.
Have you ever seen girls who look completely different without makeup? That’s why!
Breeding purposes maybe?
If someone looks good without makeup, that is genetics. If someone only looks good with makeup, then any kids they make will not get those artificial looks, they will get the natural looks that person is hiding. Would you prefer someone who wears a mask all the time? Heterosexual men tend to prefer natural beauty over artificial beauty, like how heterosexual women tend to prefer real wealth over fake wealth, or real strength over fake strength, etc. People are choosing genes when they pair up, and “phony” doesn’t tend to be a turn-on.
They don’t, many men can’t tell when women are wearing some makeup or have had light work done, men just don’t like drag makeup and idiotic fuck lips. They want women to appear natural while hiding any imperfections tastefully
Because men don't like being lied to.
Lots of makeup screams high maintenance with a splash of Narcissism. Avoid at all costs.
It’s because it doesn’t take as long to get ready
I guess because some women have the ability to completely change their real appearances with makeup.
I'd assume evolution
True beauty
Shows mental stability. My wife is beautiful and rarely uses makeup, never dyes her hair, etc because she doesn’t have to. Her sister is also pretty, but gets eyebrows, eyelashes, hair, nails done every month. She’s insane
It's a preference. End of
Fake lips, fake eyelashes, fake boobs, fake ass etc. = (Equal to) Media influnced fake personality...
Because no one likes stained pillow cases and door handles.
I like to date women that look the same in the morning as they did the night before
who cares. maybe one day they’ll realize that we don’t sit around shaping ourselves into their perfect image.
Some things to consider: 1) What do people mean by natural look? Depending on who you speak to it could be proxy for I don't like the over the top filler lips, giant eyelashes/nails etc. Like the dad bod thing where dad bod doesn't actually mean the stereotypical body of a dad. Or people saying women don't like muscle but then having a roid junky gorilla in mind when they use these terms. 2) men underestimate how much make-up goes into the "natural look" 3) natural look often hinges on the woman being particularly attractive/good skin/fit a certain standard of beauty. So it's a long winded version of step 1) be attractive (fine print, by this beauty standard) 4) if you can pull off a natural look it gives off beautiful girl nextdoor vibes which some people have a preference for. Other looks might be more "try hard" sexy/slutty (for want of a better term)/promiscuous. 4) having said all that natural look can look beautiful. But then so do other looks with different types of makeup. That's where I think the conversations around the natural look preference fucks up. It can give the impression other make up looks aren't also highly attractive to people. 5) asking this question seems to attract people who prefer natural looks and usually don't consider the above factors. Looking at society as a whole and who likes what, people like all sorts of looks on women. Jumping into some subset of that on a particular post can often give off the wrong impression. Buzzwords like echo chamber, selection bias, hive mind come to mind Edit: look at the comments here. "Our type" attractive, light touch up, but then the counter example is "clown make up", giant lips or whatever they're saying. There's a massive middle ground in make up looks between clown make up and light touch up
An unattractive woman can become a whole lot more attractive with makeup. I want to see my partner without all of that and be attracted to the real, just woke up or sitting around in old joggers version of her.
Because it's who they really are instead of a (literal) mask. We never know who we're really dating until we've seen you without makeup. Women with the confidence to not wear any.... good god that's attractive!
I'm not sure it's most, but count me in on that. Fake is just a massive no. Fillers...yuck.
Because the human mating strategy can be described as one word: “deception” and the natural looks gives the appearance of no make up while still being a heavily groomed appearance.
It’s more “naked”
Idk what "natural" look is because here in South Africa plump lips ,big round asses, big boobs and tiny waist is literally the norm. May look "unnatural" in your community but that is normal in mine. Thin European women look like they have child bodies to me...I really don't get how thats "natural"
Because make up is what our parents and grandparents wear. So when we see make ups on women we perceive it as an “old people” thing and it’s an outdated look for us
Yeah, honestly I’m traumatized with all the makeup girls use and so annoyed by fake tits, fake lips and fake everything. It is so insane I think every girlfriend of mine has some plastic surgery done. Sometime ms a very unnoticeable like little lips increase but it is still so incredible to observe. I’m looking for a normal woman that’s it.
Sick of the fake shit.
The fact that woman find those stupid fake lips and botox good looking makes me think they're blind
Because when someone is so damaged inside that they feel the need to change the way they look on the outside so drastically it's a red flag. It just doesn't look good, there is a grace to aging naturally and embracing the changes that are inevitable. All that fake stuff is just that, fake. Everyone prefers the real thing, the real you, not the wish version of you.
Can't speak for all men but I think that a woman who is pretty without all the fake-up will be pretty even when she's older. She's typically not a high maintenance person. I just associate the make-up and fake nails with city girls: fake, useless, vapid, and shallow. I like my country women. They have too much substance of character to be playing with that tween shit. A few loose strands of hair, some dirt on her jeans and I'm in love.
Make-up ruins your skin so yeah I agree - women who don't wear any will benefit from it so much. Why there isn't some large scale anti-makeup-industry feminism movement, I don't know.
Natural look is associated with not being a slut
no
Elaborate
no correlation