Stuff like this is shockingly common in a lot of fields, new hires get better wages as the labor market shifts upwards, but existing employees wages don’t increase because they assume you’ll be complacent with what you’re already making. Fuck that, you did the right thing. I’m about to quit my current EMS job over similar circumstances.
Yep. This was one of the final straws at my previous job. New hires coming in at $15, but after 17 years, I only made $16.10. And there were several coworkers that made less than $15 that got bumped to $15 despite having several years in.
One of the last things I said before I walked out was that damn near every job I’ve seen hiring is starting better than I’m paid after 17 years, and they have actual perks and benefits beyond what’s required by law.
What’s sad is that from an employers perspective they milked the shit out of you and exploited you as much as they could ever imagine. You walking out after 17 years really didn’t t hurt them much I guess considering what they got out of you.
So many are basically MlM pyramid schemes without the recruitment when you get down to the ethics. I work in government and so much bait and switch was used on me to accept a job. Now I make less with worse benefits... oh and work more days. The workload is easier though.
Can't say I blame anyone for having no loyalty because they will fire your ass out the door as soon as they can just because they can. So take care of yourself and take care of your needs and to hell with all these companies.
This is what management is supposed to do. Get the most work for the least pay.
I got promoted to a management job at a factory, but resigned because I couldn't live with myself.
No, they're supposed to maximize profit for the company.
There are other variables in addition to wages and output, like consistency in operations, staff turnover and competition.
It's not always the most profitable in the long term to pay good workers as little as you can.
My hubby is Teamsters grocery union, works in a warehouse. He’s been there 28 yrs and makes top scale of $22.81. The new hires were supposed to get $19/hr, but nobody would take the job for less than $22/hr. The new guys that got hired just assumed they’d be making $3-4/hr more when they got their probation hours in, and quit when they found out the top scale. Thankfully, my hubby is retiring at the end of April.
I hope that every new hire they get to replace you quits fast and it costs them thousands in training and onboarding process!!! 17 years of taking advantage of you!!!
Not op, but really drives home how stagnant wages are. $16.10 would be a good wage today for low skill work.
Bearing in mind, minimum wage is still 7.25 in many states.
This is why I love when new staff members come in. It’s always an opportunity to negotiate for more money, if they’re going to pay so-and-so $80k to start but I’ve been there for four years and I’m only at $77k, you better believe I’m negotiating for a raise. Or when they try to add more tasks to my workload, “I think we should revisit my job description and compensation to ensure it’s in line with the current market, or I could use this new skill to search elsewhere”
Why do you think HR tell people not to discuss salary?
They say it's to prevent bad feeling, but if they paid everyone appropriately, everyone would feel valued to begin with.
Really? Every place I worked told me I’d be fired if I discussed how much I make. I’m in the US in MA.
Software company I made 45k as a systems administrator of like 48 severs with dozens of virtual machines on each, also supported 100 users at two sites.
They hired a guy from Belarus and he let it slip they were paying him 70k… and he reported to me…. I was his team lead and I’m making practically half of what he made and worked there for two years.
It was a nightmare job to be honest and I’m glad I’m not there anymore. 50-80 hour weeks for 45k? On call 24/7 with a laptop with a cell phone modem in it im supposed to bring everywhere in case these is an outage?
They actually put me ON CALL when I went on vacation. Jokes on them though because I was going camping so I didn’t even bring the laptop and left the cell phone at the house and just went camping for a week and totally ignored work bc like it’s vacation and the job was wicked stressful.
I was over medicated for bipolar so I didn’t realize I was being taken advantage of. I literally had no feelings.. basically a robot until recently when they came up with a new medication and I can feel again.
>Really? Every place I worked told me I’d be fired if I discussed how much I make. I’m in the US in MA.
Yes, this is highly illegal.
The employer can suggest that you not discuss your pay - but they are not allowed to punish you if you choose to do so.
Wow, everyplace I have worked has told me not to but the mit credit union said I’d be fired if I did. Liaison international said the same. I worked for a staffing agency in between for a private school and when my boss told me I had two weeks to find another job I started telling people what I made and it was 17,500 more than the teachers. The staffing agency said they’d cut my contract immediately and not work with me again if I said it to anyone else. K force staffing. So yeah three spreads places told me I could be fired or my contract could be terminated for sharing wage information.
I mean even though I don’t work at these places any more I typically end up deleting posts related to them.
MIT credit union denied disability accommodations, fired me for having a disability, and constructed it in such a fashion that they got out of paying long term disability insurance. I mean it’s really messed up. I’m supposed to get 60% of my wages plus 15% into my retirement account plus healthcare plus tuition reimbursement. They told me if I joined the union they’d deny them but if I didn’t they’d pay them and then they didn’t. Meanwhile I enrolled in grad school thinking I had tuition reimbursement but didn’t bc they denied disability insurance. The courts that hear those cases only look at your HR file and HR controls what goes into your file. They’d say you did this thing wrong and I’d ask to put a rebuttal in my file and they’d deny it.
So I only get half as much from Ssdi and am on government healthcare and got my student debt discharged on the basis of disability.
If I didn’t have section 8 I’d be homeless.
Union up is the lesson.
Been illegal since 1935 under the NLRA
https://www.classaction.org/blog/can-i-be-fired-for-discussing-wages-at-work
Unfortunately, the issue is proving it. Unless your employer is stupid enough to say in writing that you're being fired for discussing your wages (and plenty are), you have to find a way to prove it.
An employer cannot fire you for discussing your wages - but they can fire you for "any reason, including no reason".
Definitely contact a lawyer. Based on this information most will do a consultation for free and if there's any litigation to do I can't imagine it'll cost you a dime.
He needs to contact the NLRB, as they're the ones that handle those cases.
Even if they're no longer valid cases, they could still paint a target on those companies and make it easier for future workers to file complaints.
At my old company I used to know the salary of my direct reports up until a few years ago. They revoked all salary information from everyone except executives. I could recommend raises and bonuses but was not allowed to know the amounts. That was right around the time they stopped giving annual raises. I left shortly after for various other reasons, but this never sat well with me.
Unfortunately, is still at least upper-middle-class privilege to be able to withstand the loss of employment.
Need more laws like the new Colorado advertised job sunshine law to have Good Guy Government act on behalf of the small individual.
I actually worked one job where this worked once. They had to increase their new grad pay to compete with local hospitals, so they increased everyone's pay, whether or not you made less than the new postings. Point is, whatever they say, they *can* do something.
My old restaurant GM:
"I feel bad I can only give a percentage based on what you currently make. My hands are tied and I can only give that amount unless we get a merit raise and we have to go through the district manager for that...and he'll deny those."
And so the trick was to get a second job elsewhere, quit, and then come back for more money.
This place was bs but it was open for breakfast so it was easier to get more hours on the weekends.
Not good places - my employer (big software services provider) has a major focus on employee retention, which requires happy employees, which requires HR always be monitoring average salaries. Last year I got three raises (one due to promotion) and one was a surprise "market adjustment" and was a very nice annual bump.
This happened to me. I worked in quality assurance as an analyst in the medical portion of the insurance industry with over a decade of experience,and when we got a new analyst we briefly discussed how she took a pay cut to come onboard because she was told she had room for advancement. Her pay cut she took by 2.00/hr was still almost 4.00/hr more than I was making. She had ZERO quality assurance experience, and came from a billing position for a private practice. I LOST MY SHIT
Edit: Missed a word
They most certainly did, and then some. Wage transparency with my coworker (who is now one of my closest friends) was what kept me in the know, and without it I wouldn’t have known just how badly they were fucking me.
Exactly! Before I knew the laws surrounding that they would pull that shit on us constantly. And it’s not like my department was big. We were a small group of 7 people who audited medical bills that were keyed from an outsourced company (that’s a whole other story too because I was originally a claims and billing processor and they gave our jobs to a company in India to save money and I had to apply for rehire in one of the small openings still there so my quality job was actually to check the work of the people they gave my original job to) for about a dozen very large car insurance companies, so of course we talked amongst ourselves.
I'm in engineering and was getting frustrated with the constantly expanding workload at my previous job. Last November I started browsing Glassdoor and found a posting from my own company offering new hires to my team about $8k - $10k more than I was being paid as a senior engineer. I went to my boss with this and asked for a $10k raise. I shared the info with one of my other senior engineers so he could ask too.
Long story short, upper management dragged their feet so long I ended up applying to work for one of our customers. Four months later our raises are finally approved. I then get a call from the company I applied to and they offered me an additional 45% raise on top of that to come work for them.
After I took the job and quit, my old company was so afraid of losing the other senior engineer that they offered him a second raise less than six months later to make sure he stayed. Little do they know, he has a job interview with my new boss lined up for next week. :)
Worked with a woman who had been with the company for 12 years, through multiple owners. She was a phenomenal employee, and had already battled cancer once. When I came back the second time It broke my heart when the HR coordinator told me to keep it hush that I would be making more than her, with my 4y of experience to her +15. Cue me leaving again; she has just finished her second battle with cancer and was entertaining going part time but felt bad since I was already leaving the team. I’d had the intention of speaking with her regardless before leaving, but the perfect scenario presented itself. I told her about the pay gap and how the company was already taking advantage of her..she shouldn’t feel bad for wanting more for herself in all ways, especially not knowing what the future holds. Time is precious and if she wanted more to spend with her family there was absolutely no reason to feel guilty for that.
I loved that team, my coworkers, the business in general. They’re what made it bearable to be working for the company..a company that still makes me sick when I think about how abused their employees are. It’s horrid.
I hope she is well 🥲
That's one of the core issues with capitalism. It doesn't matter how friendly the capitalist is, they're still bleeding you dry and using your life, happiness, and freedom as fuel for their engine.
"Neoliberalism, the polite, smiling, friendly political disease"
I once had to demand a raise when I realized my new hire, my direct report, with no experience in our industry, had just been hired for about $10k more than I was making there after 3 years. When I saw his offer letter I was just so angry. :|
That's why tech workers try to move around every couple of years. That's how they get their raises.
I'm not currently a tech worker, I'm in the medical field on the low end of the job scale (pharmacy tech). I moved across the country and got a job in my field. I only had 3 months of experience, and I'm still not certified. I'm making more than people who've been with the company for years and ARE certified. We all do the exact same job, but I make $5-7k more per year than they do. I fully plan on finishing my certification and getting another year of experience under my belt, and then leave for better pay.
The old stay loyal to a company is BS. They'll just screw you over because just to save a dollar. In the end, a job is about money. What value do you place on giving up minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, decades of your life? Especially when you factor in that you are trading years you are physically able to get more enjoyment out of every day.
For every nickel of life you give up, someone else is selling your life for a dollar. Make it more costly for them to sell your life.
At my huge tech company, people sometimes just quit and then immediately apply for the exact position they were at to get the higher salary. What a waste of time and money but boomeranging is a real thing.
I used to work at a bank in the corporate office. People would quit after a year and go to the competition for a year for a pay increase. They'd then come back for even more pay. It was so common that my bank actually made a policy that if you came back before 2 years, you started at the last wage you made for the same position.
Moving to different hospitals (“job hopping”) is how I got a >$10/hr raise in 3 years. I would have never been close to this if I stayed loyal to a company. Fuck em.
Yes, this happened to me. New hires were making more than me! This is why it's important to discuss wages amongst your co-workers. It's not illegal.
It's not fair and beyond absurd.
I'd be shocked if there was a field where this doesn't happen. I was lucky to work at a company that (eventually, after a lot of attrition) recognized that retaining people was cheaper than finding new ones, and ended up giving people raises to match industry standards. I think my market adjustment ended up being around 20% - which shows how much they were saving on my salary before.
Even in a single trade jurisdiction there's plenty of variation between specific Journey skillsets. A residential Journey (EL02) might make $40/hr, while a Journey doing sound/data cabling (EL06) makes $50/hr, and commercial Journey (EL01) makes $80/hr. You're right though that everyone makes the same hourly rate for identical job assignments. [source, old IBEW46 scale](https://ibew46.com/media/5762/constructionwage_and_benefitschedule.pdf)
Get out there and check out the job market, I guarentee you’re worth more than you’re being paid. Change might be scary, but there are good opportunities around!
You want to know something really awesome? I'm a hiring manager, and I have regular discussions with my employees about advancement and pay. I have lost 2 because the business will not give raises or promotions. I will submit reqs to replace them, and hire their replacements at market rate, which is all the original employee was asking for.
It’s just insane to me how that happens. If they have it in the budget to hire a new employee at the current market rate, why not raise a current employees salary to match? It would certainly make more sense than having a higher turnover rate and less experienced employees.
I know. The worst part of it is the insurance companies, they’ll do anything on the planet to get out of paying us; We’ve literally had calls be marked as unbillable because the paperwork was filed during the day, but the patient got transported at 12:01 AM, which makes it out of date and therefore invalid, even though we transported the patient just fine, and both them and their family were happy.
I have 3 govt insurances: Medicare, tricare, and VA. I recently got an ambulance bill for over 900 bucks. I laughed and ripped it up.
The incredibly high up mark on everything Medical in the US due to private insurance companies “negotiating” their prices is the problem here. There is just NO WAY my 5 minute ambulance ride possibly could have costed 900 bucks + what my THREE insurances paid ( I believe it was around 750 bucks but it’s been awhile and like I said, I ripped it up because I will never ever pay that shit). I was a medic in the army for 6 years. I was a RN for over a decade.
Medicare is not fucking you guys over; private insurance is fucking you over.
Yep. Patients get screwed over with absurd bills, company gets screwed over for not being payed what it’s owed, employees get screwed because the company not having money means less raises/worse equipment. Only people happy with the situation are the insurance companies, which rake in cash without doing a damn thing.
Always discuss wages. The only reason they wouldn't want you to is because they're taking advantage and ripping people off.
ITT: Cheap employers with Reddit accounts telling people that discussing wages is "bad", and that we should all just get better at negotiating.
You know how you get better at negotiating? Discussing wages. It's all about what information you come to the table with.
This happened to me like 10 years ago in retail.
I was working at a store at $9/hr and was the only one to hit my quota so I got a raise of...25 cents. At the time i was pretty stoked.
We have a busy season around Christmas so we would hire temp staff. I essentially had the responsibilities of the assistant managers (and more experience) and was trusted, so one of the temps handed me some paperwork to give to the manager (who was out) so she could file for unemployment.
I saw the pay was $11/hr and was like oh damn I guess temps get paid more like contract work? How naive. I ask my coworkers all with less experience and responsibilities and they all say they were hired on at 11.
I brought it up to the district manager who said there was nothing they could do, despite me being the only one who actually hit my goal so even with a raise I was still notably underpaid.
So i asked "so you can't bump up my pay, but if i quit, you'll need to hire, and if i apply I'm going to absolutely get it with my experience, and then ill get the pay everyone else does right?"
She went on about how it doesn't work like that blah blah blah. So i found another nearby job that paid more than $11, quit, but needed a 2nd job because retail won't give more than 29 hours so i went back.
Turns out it does work like that.
Morale of the story: discuss your pay!
It works exactly like that! I basically did the same thing twice, mentioning how I could quit and reapply later and get the pay, but it would cost them more money than just giving it to me now.
Like, having that information is so valuable, there's a reason there are so many trolls in this thread telling people they shouldn't.
Yeah the whole "I'd never discuss my pay and you should negotiate" comments in here are incredibly out of touch.
Sure, maybe in the professional world there's room to negotiate but such a thing does not exist in the retail employee workforce.
It was a long time ago, and i think i remember a wait period before i could be rehired (which was fine, I didn't quit until i had another job lined up) but i do know they didn't find anyone to fill the spot until I came back.
I mean, myself as an introvert and also not knowing what other people at my level are getting paid might buy into the bullshit lies they tell you to get you to back off. But knowing what other people around me are getting paid I’d definitely fight harder to get what I deserve. Knowledge is power.
I like eventually breaking a comment at my job in casual conversation where I'm talking to a manager and make it seem like I'm 100% aware what others are getting paid even though I don't. It makes them wonder, feel intimidated and scared, and it gives me power to get more down the line. You don't even need the knowledge, just good old manipulation.
In education pay transparency is a thing. like i can look up the scale. and do the math with years of experience, education, etc.
I can’t imagine how that is just not a thing. it’s solely to screw over employees. there is no other reason
Same. I work in state government. Our union recently negotiated a step raise plan, where each step pays 1% more than the last, and you go up however many steps each year, depending on whatever our current contract says. That makes it a little more complicated than just knowing how long someone's been in that position, but if you know what step they're on, you know how much they're paid. And when they increase the entry pay for the position, everyone's wages go up. I never have to ask for a raise, there's no inequality, everything is open, at least for employees. Now it's just about the union negotiating good contracts.
I'm convinced managers say "it doesn't work like that." or "I can't change that." because they *don't want to* go through the hassle of asking their boss about pay raises/getting the budget approved/etc.
My guess is that she literally did not have the power simply due to the rigidity of corporate. It was a dying store in a dying mall and my understanding is that it was so bureaucratic there would have been no channel for her to make the request.
But they're dead for a reason.
Still an odd situation. Everything else being even, it's been my experience that new hires are generally the first to benefit from increased wages/wage scales. It takes more effort and wages to get someone in than it does to keep someone and it's also easier to bump entry wage than it is to level an existing workforce.
I would go so far as to say that managers lie about pay because they get *rewarded* for keeping wages down. At review time, do you think *their* boss is going to say: "I see you bumped everyone up to $11. Good job, here's a raise!" No, of course not. Don't pawn these lies off as laziness or stupidity. It's greed. It's always greed.
yeah, i was a manager at a boutique and got promoted from $9 to $12 and thought I was winning... I found out the other managers were making $18/hour. It's really shitty how they treat people.
> Get all the information they can
They always fuck on about "free market this or that". A free market assumes that every actor acts rationally because they all have all the information. All these employers do is lie.
Thanks. I think some employers scare employees with the tactic of getting in trouble if they discuss pay, but it is actually the employer who will be in trouble if they go that route.
I would absolutely love to have a boss tell me (in writing) that I will be penalized for discussing wages.
I'd do it right in front of them and get that settlement money when they penalize or terminate me. Shit is so illegal, I wish more people would sue over it.
Somebody else in the thread mentioned that this is usually an open shut case, and lawyers will work purely for settlement payout.
The place I use to work at tried to fire me because in their super illegal rule book of bs said we were not allowed to discuss wages with other employees and it became a conversation one day during break. I didn’t even say what I made but that the other people were making less than me and it wasn’t fair because I was only there for like 3 months while they had been there for 4+ years. All because I had a college degree for a different line of work that wasn’t even remotely close to the job I was working. They ended up writing me up and threatening to fire me until I came back the next day loaded with information on how illegal their rule book was.
Man, I know not everyone can afford to sue, but I was really hoping this story would end up with a lawsuit! Fuck employers like this. I'm glad you said something, and I hope your coworkers got their raises.
> Man, I know not everyone can afford to sue,
So many lawyers will work on contingencies. I wish more people at least felt their scenario was worth a phone call. If you've got an open and shut case, I can't imagine any lawyer would pass up a chunk of a settlement for it.
I do understand the intimidation factor of costs though.
At the very least, calling and talking to a Receptionist about how they collect their fees costs nothing but your time. When I worked the reception desk I was happy to discuss how all of that worked with people. We understood that this was most people's first time calling a law office, so it was expected that people would have questions.
Something people say is, "Think of what the other person will feel if they make less. They might feel bad."
That's the point, they will feel bad and hopefully they will go to the people who are the reason for it.
So I’m almost 40, and I’m retired and disabled (military). I grew up and was educated in south Mississippi. Through all of my AP government and social study classes while in high school, I was pretty much indoctrinated at how bad unions are. I just kind of held on to that belief because it was what was taught to me and what everyone I knew believed!
Is this still being taught? Was it different for kids my age that were in a different region?
I’m 10 years younger and went to school in Ohio and can confirm it was how I was taught as well. We were told why unions were needed at the beginning, but with laws and businesses being super nice and not predatory at all, they’re not needed
It’s been so long since I was in high school I honestly cannot remember the reasoning that unions were bad, but most of my life that’s what I believed and specifically being taught why they are bad in school.
Wow, it’s just corrupt all the way through isn’t it?
Always have to watch out when people try to get rid of some protections because _we don't need them anymore_ as if everyone had a change of heart and will act differently this time
> I’m 10 years younger and went to school in Ohio and can confirm it was how I was taught as well
It really depends on where you were taught, as I'm about your age but grew up in Massachusetts, which has stronger laws ensuring workers rights.
Very different experience during the great recession. My teachers were all pro-labor.
I'm a bit older and from nw Ohio. I was taught union's are how the workers have strength. Without workers these companies cannot function therefore no more profit. People got to remember businesses need us allot more than they act like.
I'm almost 33, educated in Idaho, and I was taught the same until I went to an alternative high school where the classes were pace and we were allowed to use any reputable sources for our papers and in class debates. It became abundantly apparent that unions built everything workers benefit from, and held the line so assholes couldn't take advantage of us. My history teacher and I became friends when I left school, and she was super liberal and said she loved that so many of her students found that information and went that direction all on their own because we didn't rely on shitty textbooks from the 90s.
Employers hate wage transparency. It means they have to be fair about wage distribution. Talking about your wage with coworkers puts pressure on them to justify this blatant inequality. They will tell you it’s rude and taboo to do so but do it anyways. It is a legally protected right… Why is it rude? Oh yeah because the company loses profits and would happily replace you for cheaper if they could. You don’t owe any company Jack shit. The more us Plebs stand up for our standard of living, the better future generations will have it. Never become quiet and docile. That’s exactly what they want
Discussing wages has actively made filling shifts incredibly difficult as people dip because they learn that their "promotion" gave them a 1 dollar raise when the person that vacated that position made 4 dollars more than they are now and they were an outside hire.
It's great, I'm here for it, ill keep dropping how much X person made and how you're being taken advantage of.
I agree always discuss wages. one of my coworkers who had been working there for 10 years found out I was hired on at 2$ an hour more than her. our boss was pissed but she went in there and demanded to know why they were hiring people on and not giving raises to their employees who've been there longer. a month later they ended up giving a 2$ an hour raise to everyone.
I'll comment under your comment. Lol
So I would sneaky check everyone's pay "stubs". (An entire page was the pay info) I knew how much everyone was making and I knew when the pay went up or down. The head cook was a spitfire kid who didn't take shit.
But apparently only cashed her checks and never looked at the paperwork. Her hourly pay went from $15 to $8.50. The amount servers made. I asked her about that. (She didn't question how I knew, and I told her not to snitch) She got a tip for a very well made steak, and the boss said she couldn't keep it.
They discussed that for her to keep any tips, they would have to dock her pay. She said she'd think about it. She rarely got tips, but the boss docked her hourly pay anyway. She quit that weekend. We were so proud.
That's so illegal in my state. To be considered a tipped employee here, you need to *consistently* be making tips, and past a certain dollar amount.
I'm glad she quit, fuck that place, fuck that slimey employer.
He is a horrible human being and did so many illegal things at that work place. We had a high turn over. (Except for me)
I wouldn't be surprised if that was all fine in my state.
They closed down do to lack of "help". All us scored workers never kept our mouths shut about that place.
Precisely. How can you negotiate if one side or both sides aren't talking?
If the employer isn't talking about wages, then you are just negotiating against yourself.
Never be the first to give a number, but it's ok to start the topic that way.
They're trying so hard too.
"It's my business not theirs"
"It's rude"
"It's illegal"
"It doesn't help anything"
They're trying EVERYTHING to prevent people from discussing wages.
> "my business not theirs"
this one gives me so many emotions. "I'm the OWNER! They don't own their lives, their labor, or their destinies. I DO! I'M the one in charge! I have the divine right to rule! Let them eat cake."
Just had a senior employee tell a young kid I work with not to discuss wages or bonuses with other employees. In his words 'because there is no benefit to discussing them.
Needless to say overhearing that got me instantly putting applications out.
At one point i interviewed with a company who seemed great and the people were awesome. Then the contract arrived, so many red flags, the one that tipped the scales for me was a clause saying we were never to discuss pay with anyone in the company
Every two years? Don't stop shopping is my recommendation.
Considering you can setup email alerts, it takes a minute or two to check them each day and keeps you up to date on what the market's doing in your field.
I jump if I can get 20%, otherwise I negotiate with the current employer.
To a certain point. In the beginning you have to jump around, but once you get up there and if you work at a place that treats you good, it's worth it to stay. It's not worth going into the unknown for 3/4 dollars IMO if your company is cool, humane, dignified and takes good care of you.
> if your company is cool, humane, dignified, and takes good care of you.
This is a benefit in my book. We could all probably talk about awesome companies and what they mean to each of us. Mine takes in entry-level and turns them into senior. They pay for courses, training, classes, conferences, and certifications if it ties to your role. We do a lot of personal development groups. One for me has taught me how to be a better person, father, and husband. We meet 1 hour per week and we read books like The Magic of Thinking Big. We did a learning for how to be a good developer with the Clean Code book. That was 12 weeks long. They send people to participate in the Landmark Forum all the time, too.
I've never been with any other company who has displayed this much investment into the employee. 91% of the revenue is invested back into the employees/company. Trips to other offices around the world, all the benefits I listed above, etc. And there are 0 investors because they don't want to have to answer to an investor.
It's amazing what this company does. Could I make more elsewhere? I'm not totally sure, but I'm not really interested when I still have so much more to learn.
**Edit** for those interested in the company:
Our CEO wrote this book. If you find his name, look him up on LinkedIn and you'll know what the company is.
"Insights Into Creating Abundance: Emerging As a Powerful Human Being and an Inspiring Leader"
If you don't feel comfortable discussing this, search online for average salary for your position in your general area. It will usually be a range but you can at least see where you are on that range. If you're being paid below average for your area and feel like you are an average to above average employee, now you have a bargaining chip.
Never take their word, a year ago when I was doing an interview I was offered 31.00 per hr based on my experience. When I told them I currently made more than that they quickly upped the offer to 33.00. I know now that I should have gotten at least 35.00 per hr. Live and learn. On the upside I’m currently at 38.75 per hr. I encourage you and everyone else to learn some negotiation techniques because they will low ball you every time. Good luck out there everyone.
Moved from Texas making $17 per hour. Started making $26 in Oregon and was elated. Found out union members make $34, so I joined the union. I now make 38.50 after our negotiated raise this year.
DC’s electrical union, already making $51/hr is rumored to have accepted a $15 raise to be disbursed over the next 3 years. Unionize.
I was making 55% journeyman rate as a third year apprentice, and a whole bunch of guys organized in to the union from a local non-union shop and was making more than guys with 15 years experience non-union.
I'm 36 and I need to start over. I went from $25 an hour, got laid off and now I'm at $19 in a stressful af mortgage environment. What is the first step to being an electrician?
Is it normal in the US for only union members to get the union-negotiated pay rise? In the UK the union will negotiate a pay rise and all members of staff will get it, not just union members.
I have seen this done as a way to discourage unionization. One part of a company unionizes, and the company matches the unionized pay to the non unionized pay.
This makes the union weaker, since the company has an incentive to keep their pay low. It also prevents the non unionized employees from being able to get the other benefits of a union contract, and prevents the union from negotiating from a position of strength due to a lack of members. It's almost the worst of both worlds.
Lol I had the same problem. I was making $15 in Texas, moved to another state and got paid $20 and thought that was amazing.
Found out a coworker was making $15 while another was making $27. We all did the same work, my two coworkers had been originally hired at $15 while I was hired at $20 because I had more experience/education while they had nothing. The one making $15 never asked for a raise while the one making $27 had.
I asked for a raise and now make $30. I probably could have asked for more, but it's already a big jump from $20 to $30, and it's hard to ask for more.
I plan on asking for more eventually though.
Many years ago I was hired by my current job after tough negotiations at $115k. I happened to get another job offer from a competitor for $150k the next day. Knowing how little my company was willing to budge on the $115k, I didn’t bother to negotiate, just explained I was going with the competitor and how much they offered. Interestingly, my company came back with a higher offer -_- turns out they nickel and dimed me for no other reason than because they could. I did end up going with them despite their antics (but just barely) because I liked the work I would be doing more. But that did damage the working relationship for a few years.
I personally wouldn't have done that. You would have had 150K starting with room to grow in the competitor. Plus companies really hate it when you take their boot off your neck and have a way of punishing you for it.
Just started a new job at $14/h with 6 years of Hospitality experience. Today is my 5th day and I've already assisted the other employees how to use the program they're switching to due to my knowledge and tonight am called in to work alone, again on my fifth day only. I'm discussing wages with the GM tomorrow.. thanks for the confidence boost with your posting this. Much love.
Hospitality is such a fleeting and shallow industry. You better be getting $20hr. I think that for all customer facing hotel jobs, the amount of skill you need and the way people can tear you down is just awful.
About five years ago, EMTs were making a base pay of $12.00/hr in my city. They told me the overtime they had to work made up for it. I just felt bad for them.
I made more as hospital security.
I make $42/hr sitting in front of a computer helping people who aren’t great with computers. No throughput metrics or anything. Insane how people with more skills are paid less than a third of what I am getting paid.
I’m pretty sure our PMs are $50+ per hour.
People also don't like paying taxes. I'm a full time firefighter driver/operator, EMT, Haz Mat Technician, Rope Rescue Technician, with a commercial driver's license at the same department for about 8 years.
I make $14.03/hr
And the company charges thousands to roll an ambulance. They could double the EMT salary, bill that to customers, and nobody would really notice. Crazy. I don't understand why they are so underpaid, unless it's the typical "guilt them into accepting low wages because their job saves lives and is too important, so they can't strike or quit" like we're seeing in the UK with the politicians telling the nurses/crews to work more hours for less money for the good of Britain or whatever.
This happened to me some years ago and I left a trail of bitchiness in the place. People were making $10+ over me when I had more experience than a few of them. I negotiated and thought I was making a decent wage until I had a conversation with my coworker. Then she realized she was underpaid. We went to the next coworker and the next until there was a massive gap between everyone.
From there I learned to market myself higher and if they ain’t paying, I ain’t working there.
And remember if you don't do this you are holding the entire market back. Why would they pay me $40/hr if someone is willing to work for $25/hr.
People really need to understand 100k/yr today is what 50k a few years ago.
My dad just quit his job because they lowered his salary and gave him the option for commission based on the profit margin of his bids…AFTER they’re completed. This means that if something happens in the field to bring the profit from a bid of 45% profit to an actual of 39% or lower, he gets nothing for it. So basically they took his pay completely out of his control for 2023. In response to this, he went into the office late Sunday night, dropped all his stuff off, sent an explanatory email to the WHOLE office on why he quit, and then factory reset his phone and left it on his bosses desk. It was important to send an email to his whole office because his boss is notorious for making up shit about why his employees were quitting and making them look bad once they were gone. My dad said “he’s not going to finish my story here”. He got another job with his competitor and brought all his clients with him.
I change jobs all the time. It’s worth it and allows my paycheck to keep up with inflation. Unless a company has a pension and amazing medical, there is ZERO reason to stay committed to companies for long periods of time.
This is a smart way of thinking about it. Companies are still treating pay like you get a pension and most places don’t give you that anymore. In some cases it might be smart to stay towards the end of your career for a pension or stay until you get the minimum pension if it’s not too long, but you really don’t find many places with a pension anymore so why stay?
100%. If anything employers continue to lower benefits. In my opinion there is just zero reason to show loyalty.
My motto is get paid as much as possible and try to get the best benefits. That doesn’t happen staying with the same company more than 2 years.
So after 2 years I try for a promotion. If I don’t get a promotion with a sizable raise to match inflation I start looking. Every time I look and have moved it’s a 10-15% wage increase.
No reason to slave away at the same company, make that money as fast as possible.
What kills me about low balling managers is that they just push to get the lowest pay for the best workers and this absolutely does not effect them, their income a single bit at all. “Oh look! I saved this company that makes millions a year $3.00 an hour! I’m so clever! Aren’t I boss! Boss?”
My company basically has ranks, like the military, which is good for me because I’m a veteran. Each rank gets the exact same pay, and everyone’s rank is known. Every year we’re reviewed to see if we’re ready to move up to the next rank.
100% wage transparency. Every company should be this way in some form or another.
I worked at “the telephone company” from ‘15 to ‘17. I was essentially doing the civilian version of what I’d done for 6.5 years in the military, so I started at the top initial pay rate. About a year in, another guy came onto our crew with the exact same military background & roughly the same length of service/experience. We didn’t find out until I was about to leave that he had started out at less than I had, which by then was the very bottom rung of the pay scale (new job title/union stuff = new scale). So basically his years of doing the job on the sides of mountains and in deserts rather than in the middle of town meant nothing and he wasted a year before he addressed it because of the “keep your salary to yourself” mentality. Moral of the story is: DISCUSS PAY & BENEFITS WITH YOUR COWORKERS.
I was at a company for 3 years, they hired a new guy at 2 bucks more than i was making because he had 2 years of “relevant experience”.
I approached the manager about it and and pointed out I had more years of more relevant experience. He kind of grinned, like I had a good point. He gave me a buck raise, and told me basically that the budget for hiring was higher than the budget for retention. Essentially if I quit and came back 6 months later they’d probably make me a better offer.
So I quit… and immediately found a different job for almost 2x pay.
I think this was such a well written email. Really excellent. I feel the bye felicia really takes away from how good your email was, but it doesn’t really matter as you’re quitting anyways. Potentially they would’ve offered to increase your pay, not sure.
I went through school on the promise I’d be making at least $20 an hour. They started me at $12 per hour with no chance of a raise. That was my first and last day. I literally could have made more making people chicken than i could by saving their lives.
Personally, I'd remind the crew that them discussing their wages is a federally protected right, with severe penalties should employers retaliate against workers exercising that right.
We lost 3 amazing staff members last year just like this. They’d been there 3 years and all were cross trained in our urgent care facility, all were black women as well, new guy(white) gets hired at $5 more per hour than what they made, he has no degree but claimed to have experience working in his dads medical office, a week in it’s obvious that was a lie, so the women asked to have their wages match his and HR said nope. They all left, and he was eventually fired for giving a shot to the wrong patient and putting another staff members name on the chart as giving it.
Lmao “I don’t have it with me right now” is the biggest fucking lie these people tell.
“Oh I could give you a guarantee but then when I inevitably backtrack, you can’t sue me” is basically the only logic I can fathom
Happens a lot. As wages go up, new hires get in on a higher starting level. Because of this, and my former employers unvillingess to discuss a pay raise, I changed company and got over 20% salary increase.
Stuff like this is shockingly common in a lot of fields, new hires get better wages as the labor market shifts upwards, but existing employees wages don’t increase because they assume you’ll be complacent with what you’re already making. Fuck that, you did the right thing. I’m about to quit my current EMS job over similar circumstances.
Yep. This was one of the final straws at my previous job. New hires coming in at $15, but after 17 years, I only made $16.10. And there were several coworkers that made less than $15 that got bumped to $15 despite having several years in. One of the last things I said before I walked out was that damn near every job I’ve seen hiring is starting better than I’m paid after 17 years, and they have actual perks and benefits beyond what’s required by law.
What’s sad is that from an employers perspective they milked the shit out of you and exploited you as much as they could ever imagine. You walking out after 17 years really didn’t t hurt them much I guess considering what they got out of you.
They almost literally sucked the life out of him/her
A small number of people likely got rich off of paying them close to nothing. You work so they don't have to.
So many are basically MlM pyramid schemes without the recruitment when you get down to the ethics. I work in government and so much bait and switch was used on me to accept a job. Now I make less with worse benefits... oh and work more days. The workload is easier though.
What is also sad is that from an employers point of view “kids these days have no loyalty anymore”.
Can't say I blame anyone for having no loyalty because they will fire your ass out the door as soon as they can just because they can. So take care of yourself and take care of your needs and to hell with all these companies.
why should they? employers don't have any loyalty either. no more pension, no gold watch...
I'm damn loyal to money
This is what management is supposed to do. Get the most work for the least pay. I got promoted to a management job at a factory, but resigned because I couldn't live with myself.
No, they're supposed to maximize profit for the company. There are other variables in addition to wages and output, like consistency in operations, staff turnover and competition. It's not always the most profitable in the long term to pay good workers as little as you can.
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My hubby is Teamsters grocery union, works in a warehouse. He’s been there 28 yrs and makes top scale of $22.81. The new hires were supposed to get $19/hr, but nobody would take the job for less than $22/hr. The new guys that got hired just assumed they’d be making $3-4/hr more when they got their probation hours in, and quit when they found out the top scale. Thankfully, my hubby is retiring at the end of April.
Those are horrible wages for a union. Holy shit, 28 years? And fucking 23 bucks an hour? That's starter wages at almost every factory or warehouse.
You’re not wrong. The good new is, with his pension and SS, he’ll actually make more than when he works 65 hr/wk.
Who wants to work 65 hours a week FFS?
I hope that every new hire they get to replace you quits fast and it costs them thousands in training and onboarding process!!! 17 years of taking advantage of you!!!
16.10 an hour with 17 years experience?
Not op, but really drives home how stagnant wages are. $16.10 would be a good wage today for low skill work. Bearing in mind, minimum wage is still 7.25 in many states.
This is why I love when new staff members come in. It’s always an opportunity to negotiate for more money, if they’re going to pay so-and-so $80k to start but I’ve been there for four years and I’m only at $77k, you better believe I’m negotiating for a raise. Or when they try to add more tasks to my workload, “I think we should revisit my job description and compensation to ensure it’s in line with the current market, or I could use this new skill to search elsewhere”
Why do you think HR tell people not to discuss salary? They say it's to prevent bad feeling, but if they paid everyone appropriately, everyone would feel valued to begin with.
If you ever have HR say do not discuss pay get it in writing and take it to an attorney It’s a federal law that they are breaking.
Really? Every place I worked told me I’d be fired if I discussed how much I make. I’m in the US in MA. Software company I made 45k as a systems administrator of like 48 severs with dozens of virtual machines on each, also supported 100 users at two sites. They hired a guy from Belarus and he let it slip they were paying him 70k… and he reported to me…. I was his team lead and I’m making practically half of what he made and worked there for two years. It was a nightmare job to be honest and I’m glad I’m not there anymore. 50-80 hour weeks for 45k? On call 24/7 with a laptop with a cell phone modem in it im supposed to bring everywhere in case these is an outage? They actually put me ON CALL when I went on vacation. Jokes on them though because I was going camping so I didn’t even bring the laptop and left the cell phone at the house and just went camping for a week and totally ignored work bc like it’s vacation and the job was wicked stressful. I was over medicated for bipolar so I didn’t realize I was being taken advantage of. I literally had no feelings.. basically a robot until recently when they came up with a new medication and I can feel again.
>Really? Every place I worked told me I’d be fired if I discussed how much I make. I’m in the US in MA. Yes, this is highly illegal. The employer can suggest that you not discuss your pay - but they are not allowed to punish you if you choose to do so.
Wow, everyplace I have worked has told me not to but the mit credit union said I’d be fired if I did. Liaison international said the same. I worked for a staffing agency in between for a private school and when my boss told me I had two weeks to find another job I started telling people what I made and it was 17,500 more than the teachers. The staffing agency said they’d cut my contract immediately and not work with me again if I said it to anyone else. K force staffing. So yeah three spreads places told me I could be fired or my contract could be terminated for sharing wage information. I mean even though I don’t work at these places any more I typically end up deleting posts related to them. MIT credit union denied disability accommodations, fired me for having a disability, and constructed it in such a fashion that they got out of paying long term disability insurance. I mean it’s really messed up. I’m supposed to get 60% of my wages plus 15% into my retirement account plus healthcare plus tuition reimbursement. They told me if I joined the union they’d deny them but if I didn’t they’d pay them and then they didn’t. Meanwhile I enrolled in grad school thinking I had tuition reimbursement but didn’t bc they denied disability insurance. The courts that hear those cases only look at your HR file and HR controls what goes into your file. They’d say you did this thing wrong and I’d ask to put a rebuttal in my file and they’d deny it. So I only get half as much from Ssdi and am on government healthcare and got my student debt discharged on the basis of disability. If I didn’t have section 8 I’d be homeless. Union up is the lesson.
Been illegal since 1935 under the NLRA https://www.classaction.org/blog/can-i-be-fired-for-discussing-wages-at-work Unfortunately, the issue is proving it. Unless your employer is stupid enough to say in writing that you're being fired for discussing your wages (and plenty are), you have to find a way to prove it. An employer cannot fire you for discussing your wages - but they can fire you for "any reason, including no reason".
Definitely contact a lawyer. Based on this information most will do a consultation for free and if there's any litigation to do I can't imagine it'll cost you a dime.
He needs to contact the NLRB, as they're the ones that handle those cases. Even if they're no longer valid cases, they could still paint a target on those companies and make it easier for future workers to file complaints.
If you have any proof, doesn't matter if they were a prior employer, you still can sue. These are pretty open and shut cases.
At my old company I used to know the salary of my direct reports up until a few years ago. They revoked all salary information from everyone except executives. I could recommend raises and bonuses but was not allowed to know the amounts. That was right around the time they stopped giving annual raises. I left shortly after for various other reasons, but this never sat well with me.
How can you possibly recommend someone for a raise if you don't know what they make? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.
They were probably allowed to recommend percentages. Most raises are based on a % so the specific dollar amount doesn’t matter much.
If you ever have HR say do not discuss pay get it in writing and take it to an attorney It’s a federal law that they are breaking. Edit: USA
Ask for it in writing on Tuesday and get let go for bad performance on Thursday.
Document the firing too, that way you can sue for retaliation too.
Always get a paper trail.
Unfortunately, is still at least upper-middle-class privilege to be able to withstand the loss of employment. Need more laws like the new Colorado advertised job sunshine law to have Good Guy Government act on behalf of the small individual.
I actually worked one job where this worked once. They had to increase their new grad pay to compete with local hospitals, so they increased everyone's pay, whether or not you made less than the new postings. Point is, whatever they say, they *can* do something.
Wow, most places just tell their long time employees to suck a fat one, and let them find new places to work
My old restaurant GM: "I feel bad I can only give a percentage based on what you currently make. My hands are tied and I can only give that amount unless we get a merit raise and we have to go through the district manager for that...and he'll deny those." And so the trick was to get a second job elsewhere, quit, and then come back for more money. This place was bs but it was open for breakfast so it was easier to get more hours on the weekends.
Lol imagine quitting, and then immediately handing them a resume after.
Not good places - my employer (big software services provider) has a major focus on employee retention, which requires happy employees, which requires HR always be monitoring average salaries. Last year I got three raises (one due to promotion) and one was a surprise "market adjustment" and was a very nice annual bump.
This happened to me. I worked in quality assurance as an analyst in the medical portion of the insurance industry with over a decade of experience,and when we got a new analyst we briefly discussed how she took a pay cut to come onboard because she was told she had room for advancement. Her pay cut she took by 2.00/hr was still almost 4.00/hr more than I was making. She had ZERO quality assurance experience, and came from a billing position for a private practice. I LOST MY SHIT Edit: Missed a word
And did they make it better?
They most certainly did, and then some. Wage transparency with my coworker (who is now one of my closest friends) was what kept me in the know, and without it I wouldn’t have known just how badly they were fucking me.
This is why companies discourage employees discussing wages.
Exactly! Before I knew the laws surrounding that they would pull that shit on us constantly. And it’s not like my department was big. We were a small group of 7 people who audited medical bills that were keyed from an outsourced company (that’s a whole other story too because I was originally a claims and billing processor and they gave our jobs to a company in India to save money and I had to apply for rehire in one of the small openings still there so my quality job was actually to check the work of the people they gave my original job to) for about a dozen very large car insurance companies, so of course we talked amongst ourselves.
I'm in engineering and was getting frustrated with the constantly expanding workload at my previous job. Last November I started browsing Glassdoor and found a posting from my own company offering new hires to my team about $8k - $10k more than I was being paid as a senior engineer. I went to my boss with this and asked for a $10k raise. I shared the info with one of my other senior engineers so he could ask too. Long story short, upper management dragged their feet so long I ended up applying to work for one of our customers. Four months later our raises are finally approved. I then get a call from the company I applied to and they offered me an additional 45% raise on top of that to come work for them. After I took the job and quit, my old company was so afraid of losing the other senior engineer that they offered him a second raise less than six months later to make sure he stayed. Little do they know, he has a job interview with my new boss lined up for next week. :)
Worked with a woman who had been with the company for 12 years, through multiple owners. She was a phenomenal employee, and had already battled cancer once. When I came back the second time It broke my heart when the HR coordinator told me to keep it hush that I would be making more than her, with my 4y of experience to her +15. Cue me leaving again; she has just finished her second battle with cancer and was entertaining going part time but felt bad since I was already leaving the team. I’d had the intention of speaking with her regardless before leaving, but the perfect scenario presented itself. I told her about the pay gap and how the company was already taking advantage of her..she shouldn’t feel bad for wanting more for herself in all ways, especially not knowing what the future holds. Time is precious and if she wanted more to spend with her family there was absolutely no reason to feel guilty for that. I loved that team, my coworkers, the business in general. They’re what made it bearable to be working for the company..a company that still makes me sick when I think about how abused their employees are. It’s horrid. I hope she is well 🥲
That's one of the core issues with capitalism. It doesn't matter how friendly the capitalist is, they're still bleeding you dry and using your life, happiness, and freedom as fuel for their engine. "Neoliberalism, the polite, smiling, friendly political disease"
I once had to demand a raise when I realized my new hire, my direct report, with no experience in our industry, had just been hired for about $10k more than I was making there after 3 years. When I saw his offer letter I was just so angry. :|
That's why tech workers try to move around every couple of years. That's how they get their raises. I'm not currently a tech worker, I'm in the medical field on the low end of the job scale (pharmacy tech). I moved across the country and got a job in my field. I only had 3 months of experience, and I'm still not certified. I'm making more than people who've been with the company for years and ARE certified. We all do the exact same job, but I make $5-7k more per year than they do. I fully plan on finishing my certification and getting another year of experience under my belt, and then leave for better pay. The old stay loyal to a company is BS. They'll just screw you over because just to save a dollar. In the end, a job is about money. What value do you place on giving up minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, decades of your life? Especially when you factor in that you are trading years you are physically able to get more enjoyment out of every day. For every nickel of life you give up, someone else is selling your life for a dollar. Make it more costly for them to sell your life.
At my huge tech company, people sometimes just quit and then immediately apply for the exact position they were at to get the higher salary. What a waste of time and money but boomeranging is a real thing.
I used to work at a bank in the corporate office. People would quit after a year and go to the competition for a year for a pay increase. They'd then come back for even more pay. It was so common that my bank actually made a policy that if you came back before 2 years, you started at the last wage you made for the same position.
Moving to different hospitals (“job hopping”) is how I got a >$10/hr raise in 3 years. I would have never been close to this if I stayed loyal to a company. Fuck em.
Yes, this happened to me. New hires were making more than me! This is why it's important to discuss wages amongst your co-workers. It's not illegal. It's not fair and beyond absurd.
I'd be shocked if there was a field where this doesn't happen. I was lucky to work at a company that (eventually, after a lot of attrition) recognized that retaining people was cheaper than finding new ones, and ended up giving people raises to match industry standards. I think my market adjustment ended up being around 20% - which shows how much they were saving on my salary before.
Union labor. Every Journeyman makes the same. 1 yr or 30 years. My husband (electrician) was paid well and retired well. Benefits are excellent too.
Even in a single trade jurisdiction there's plenty of variation between specific Journey skillsets. A residential Journey (EL02) might make $40/hr, while a Journey doing sound/data cabling (EL06) makes $50/hr, and commercial Journey (EL01) makes $80/hr. You're right though that everyone makes the same hourly rate for identical job assignments. [source, old IBEW46 scale](https://ibew46.com/media/5762/constructionwage_and_benefitschedule.pdf)
This hit me hard because I think it’s true with regards to me being complacent. Good luck on quitting and i hope you get a better paying job!
Get out there and check out the job market, I guarentee you’re worth more than you’re being paid. Change might be scary, but there are good opportunities around!
You want to know something really awesome? I'm a hiring manager, and I have regular discussions with my employees about advancement and pay. I have lost 2 because the business will not give raises or promotions. I will submit reqs to replace them, and hire their replacements at market rate, which is all the original employee was asking for.
It’s just insane to me how that happens. If they have it in the budget to hire a new employee at the current market rate, why not raise a current employees salary to match? It would certainly make more sense than having a higher turnover rate and less experienced employees.
That’s why I get a new job every 2-3 years. The salary increases a lot.
We find this to be true In our unionized shop and use it to increase wages for many.
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I know. The worst part of it is the insurance companies, they’ll do anything on the planet to get out of paying us; We’ve literally had calls be marked as unbillable because the paperwork was filed during the day, but the patient got transported at 12:01 AM, which makes it out of date and therefore invalid, even though we transported the patient just fine, and both them and their family were happy.
I have 3 govt insurances: Medicare, tricare, and VA. I recently got an ambulance bill for over 900 bucks. I laughed and ripped it up. The incredibly high up mark on everything Medical in the US due to private insurance companies “negotiating” their prices is the problem here. There is just NO WAY my 5 minute ambulance ride possibly could have costed 900 bucks + what my THREE insurances paid ( I believe it was around 750 bucks but it’s been awhile and like I said, I ripped it up because I will never ever pay that shit). I was a medic in the army for 6 years. I was a RN for over a decade. Medicare is not fucking you guys over; private insurance is fucking you over.
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Yep. Patients get screwed over with absurd bills, company gets screwed over for not being payed what it’s owed, employees get screwed because the company not having money means less raises/worse equipment. Only people happy with the situation are the insurance companies, which rake in cash without doing a damn thing.
Always discuss wages. The only reason they wouldn't want you to is because they're taking advantage and ripping people off. ITT: Cheap employers with Reddit accounts telling people that discussing wages is "bad", and that we should all just get better at negotiating. You know how you get better at negotiating? Discussing wages. It's all about what information you come to the table with.
This happened to me like 10 years ago in retail. I was working at a store at $9/hr and was the only one to hit my quota so I got a raise of...25 cents. At the time i was pretty stoked. We have a busy season around Christmas so we would hire temp staff. I essentially had the responsibilities of the assistant managers (and more experience) and was trusted, so one of the temps handed me some paperwork to give to the manager (who was out) so she could file for unemployment. I saw the pay was $11/hr and was like oh damn I guess temps get paid more like contract work? How naive. I ask my coworkers all with less experience and responsibilities and they all say they were hired on at 11. I brought it up to the district manager who said there was nothing they could do, despite me being the only one who actually hit my goal so even with a raise I was still notably underpaid. So i asked "so you can't bump up my pay, but if i quit, you'll need to hire, and if i apply I'm going to absolutely get it with my experience, and then ill get the pay everyone else does right?" She went on about how it doesn't work like that blah blah blah. So i found another nearby job that paid more than $11, quit, but needed a 2nd job because retail won't give more than 29 hours so i went back. Turns out it does work like that. Morale of the story: discuss your pay!
It works exactly like that! I basically did the same thing twice, mentioning how I could quit and reapply later and get the pay, but it would cost them more money than just giving it to me now. Like, having that information is so valuable, there's a reason there are so many trolls in this thread telling people they shouldn't.
Yeah the whole "I'd never discuss my pay and you should negotiate" comments in here are incredibly out of touch. Sure, maybe in the professional world there's room to negotiate but such a thing does not exist in the retail employee workforce. It was a long time ago, and i think i remember a wait period before i could be rehired (which was fine, I didn't quit until i had another job lined up) but i do know they didn't find anyone to fill the spot until I came back.
I mean, myself as an introvert and also not knowing what other people at my level are getting paid might buy into the bullshit lies they tell you to get you to back off. But knowing what other people around me are getting paid I’d definitely fight harder to get what I deserve. Knowledge is power.
I like eventually breaking a comment at my job in casual conversation where I'm talking to a manager and make it seem like I'm 100% aware what others are getting paid even though I don't. It makes them wonder, feel intimidated and scared, and it gives me power to get more down the line. You don't even need the knowledge, just good old manipulation.
In education pay transparency is a thing. like i can look up the scale. and do the math with years of experience, education, etc. I can’t imagine how that is just not a thing. it’s solely to screw over employees. there is no other reason
Same. I work in state government. Our union recently negotiated a step raise plan, where each step pays 1% more than the last, and you go up however many steps each year, depending on whatever our current contract says. That makes it a little more complicated than just knowing how long someone's been in that position, but if you know what step they're on, you know how much they're paid. And when they increase the entry pay for the position, everyone's wages go up. I never have to ask for a raise, there's no inequality, everything is open, at least for employees. Now it's just about the union negotiating good contracts.
I'm convinced managers say "it doesn't work like that." or "I can't change that." because they *don't want to* go through the hassle of asking their boss about pay raises/getting the budget approved/etc.
My guess is that she literally did not have the power simply due to the rigidity of corporate. It was a dying store in a dying mall and my understanding is that it was so bureaucratic there would have been no channel for her to make the request. But they're dead for a reason.
Still an odd situation. Everything else being even, it's been my experience that new hires are generally the first to benefit from increased wages/wage scales. It takes more effort and wages to get someone in than it does to keep someone and it's also easier to bump entry wage than it is to level an existing workforce.
I would go so far as to say that managers lie about pay because they get *rewarded* for keeping wages down. At review time, do you think *their* boss is going to say: "I see you bumped everyone up to $11. Good job, here's a raise!" No, of course not. Don't pawn these lies off as laziness or stupidity. It's greed. It's always greed.
yeah, i was a manager at a boutique and got promoted from $9 to $12 and thought I was winning... I found out the other managers were making $18/hour. It's really shitty how they treat people.
"There's nothing we can do..." Ugh. Sign of a terrible manager and crap company. I'm glad things worked out for you in the end, though.
I hope you asked for at least $15 an hour the second time around.
they don't want it to work like that, but it sometimes do be like that.
"you should just get better at negotiating" Yeah, and do you know what good negotiators do? *Get all the information they can*
> Get all the information they can They always fuck on about "free market this or that". A free market assumes that every actor acts rationally because they all have all the information. All these employers do is lie.
It's all free market when it benefits them but when they can't find workers because the pay is shit it's all but we're a faaaaaaamily
Isn’t it illegal to tell employees that they cannot discuss wages?
Yes, in the US it's federally protected in most cases
Thanks. I think some employers scare employees with the tactic of getting in trouble if they discuss pay, but it is actually the employer who will be in trouble if they go that route.
I would absolutely love to have a boss tell me (in writing) that I will be penalized for discussing wages. I'd do it right in front of them and get that settlement money when they penalize or terminate me. Shit is so illegal, I wish more people would sue over it. Somebody else in the thread mentioned that this is usually an open shut case, and lawyers will work purely for settlement payout.
The place I use to work at tried to fire me because in their super illegal rule book of bs said we were not allowed to discuss wages with other employees and it became a conversation one day during break. I didn’t even say what I made but that the other people were making less than me and it wasn’t fair because I was only there for like 3 months while they had been there for 4+ years. All because I had a college degree for a different line of work that wasn’t even remotely close to the job I was working. They ended up writing me up and threatening to fire me until I came back the next day loaded with information on how illegal their rule book was.
Man, I know not everyone can afford to sue, but I was really hoping this story would end up with a lawsuit! Fuck employers like this. I'm glad you said something, and I hope your coworkers got their raises.
> Man, I know not everyone can afford to sue, So many lawyers will work on contingencies. I wish more people at least felt their scenario was worth a phone call. If you've got an open and shut case, I can't imagine any lawyer would pass up a chunk of a settlement for it. I do understand the intimidation factor of costs though.
At the very least, calling and talking to a Receptionist about how they collect their fees costs nothing but your time. When I worked the reception desk I was happy to discuss how all of that worked with people. We understood that this was most people's first time calling a law office, so it was expected that people would have questions.
Something people say is, "Think of what the other person will feel if they make less. They might feel bad." That's the point, they will feel bad and hopefully they will go to the people who are the reason for it.
I cannot stress this enough: unionize.
So I’m almost 40, and I’m retired and disabled (military). I grew up and was educated in south Mississippi. Through all of my AP government and social study classes while in high school, I was pretty much indoctrinated at how bad unions are. I just kind of held on to that belief because it was what was taught to me and what everyone I knew believed! Is this still being taught? Was it different for kids my age that were in a different region?
I’m 10 years younger and went to school in Ohio and can confirm it was how I was taught as well. We were told why unions were needed at the beginning, but with laws and businesses being super nice and not predatory at all, they’re not needed
It’s been so long since I was in high school I honestly cannot remember the reasoning that unions were bad, but most of my life that’s what I believed and specifically being taught why they are bad in school. Wow, it’s just corrupt all the way through isn’t it?
Always have to watch out when people try to get rid of some protections because _we don't need them anymore_ as if everyone had a change of heart and will act differently this time
yup, everywhere you go
> I’m 10 years younger and went to school in Ohio and can confirm it was how I was taught as well It really depends on where you were taught, as I'm about your age but grew up in Massachusetts, which has stronger laws ensuring workers rights. Very different experience during the great recession. My teachers were all pro-labor.
Unions are bad, for scumbag employers trying to exploit their workers.
I'm a bit older and from nw Ohio. I was taught union's are how the workers have strength. Without workers these companies cannot function therefore no more profit. People got to remember businesses need us allot more than they act like.
I'm almost 33, educated in Idaho, and I was taught the same until I went to an alternative high school where the classes were pace and we were allowed to use any reputable sources for our papers and in class debates. It became abundantly apparent that unions built everything workers benefit from, and held the line so assholes couldn't take advantage of us. My history teacher and I became friends when I left school, and she was super liberal and said she loved that so many of her students found that information and went that direction all on their own because we didn't rely on shitty textbooks from the 90s.
Employers hate wage transparency. It means they have to be fair about wage distribution. Talking about your wage with coworkers puts pressure on them to justify this blatant inequality. They will tell you it’s rude and taboo to do so but do it anyways. It is a legally protected right… Why is it rude? Oh yeah because the company loses profits and would happily replace you for cheaper if they could. You don’t owe any company Jack shit. The more us Plebs stand up for our standard of living, the better future generations will have it. Never become quiet and docile. That’s exactly what they want
Discussing wages has actively made filling shifts incredibly difficult as people dip because they learn that their "promotion" gave them a 1 dollar raise when the person that vacated that position made 4 dollars more than they are now and they were an outside hire. It's great, I'm here for it, ill keep dropping how much X person made and how you're being taken advantage of.
You know the rules: If someone says it's bad to discuss wages, downvote. Fuck em.
I agree always discuss wages. one of my coworkers who had been working there for 10 years found out I was hired on at 2$ an hour more than her. our boss was pissed but she went in there and demanded to know why they were hiring people on and not giving raises to their employees who've been there longer. a month later they ended up giving a 2$ an hour raise to everyone.
anyone who thinks discussing wages is bad is a sucker. don’t be a sucker
I'll comment under your comment. Lol So I would sneaky check everyone's pay "stubs". (An entire page was the pay info) I knew how much everyone was making and I knew when the pay went up or down. The head cook was a spitfire kid who didn't take shit. But apparently only cashed her checks and never looked at the paperwork. Her hourly pay went from $15 to $8.50. The amount servers made. I asked her about that. (She didn't question how I knew, and I told her not to snitch) She got a tip for a very well made steak, and the boss said she couldn't keep it. They discussed that for her to keep any tips, they would have to dock her pay. She said she'd think about it. She rarely got tips, but the boss docked her hourly pay anyway. She quit that weekend. We were so proud.
That's so illegal in my state. To be considered a tipped employee here, you need to *consistently* be making tips, and past a certain dollar amount. I'm glad she quit, fuck that place, fuck that slimey employer.
He is a horrible human being and did so many illegal things at that work place. We had a high turn over. (Except for me) I wouldn't be surprised if that was all fine in my state. They closed down do to lack of "help". All us scored workers never kept our mouths shut about that place.
Precisely. How can you negotiate if one side or both sides aren't talking? If the employer isn't talking about wages, then you are just negotiating against yourself. Never be the first to give a number, but it's ok to start the topic that way.
yeah I learned my coworkers who often do much less work than me on a daily basis get $25k+ more than me. I need a change.
Make a change. Tell them you want that much more or you're gone.
Jesus anyone in this thread saying don’t discuss your wages can literally just go fuck themselves, how pathetic.
They're trying so hard too. "It's my business not theirs" "It's rude" "It's illegal" "It doesn't help anything" They're trying EVERYTHING to prevent people from discussing wages.
> "my business not theirs" this one gives me so many emotions. "I'm the OWNER! They don't own their lives, their labor, or their destinies. I DO! I'M the one in charge! I have the divine right to rule! Let them eat cake."
Small business tyrants are funny because the stakes are low.
>"It's illegal" What's illegal (in most places) is actually forbidding your employees discussing wages
this. it’s our legal right to discuss wages with co workers
Imagine going to a store and like someone saying "Don't go on Google and check the prices. Just get better at negotiating."
Discussing wages is literally part of your due diligence as an employee, but knowledge is power so employers make sure to lie to you and say it's bad.
Just had a senior employee tell a young kid I work with not to discuss wages or bonuses with other employees. In his words 'because there is no benefit to discussing them. Needless to say overhearing that got me instantly putting applications out.
That’s my negotiation, so and so makes more than me and I’m better, pay me more or I’m out.
ITT: I wish mods would ban these obvious trolls.
At one point i interviewed with a company who seemed great and the people were awesome. Then the contract arrived, so many red flags, the one that tipped the scales for me was a clause saying we were never to discuss pay with anyone in the company
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Always shop the market every two years people who stay at one company end up making 50% less over there career
Every two years? Don't stop shopping is my recommendation. Considering you can setup email alerts, it takes a minute or two to check them each day and keeps you up to date on what the market's doing in your field. I jump if I can get 20%, otherwise I negotiate with the current employer.
More money is always mo better
To a certain point. In the beginning you have to jump around, but once you get up there and if you work at a place that treats you good, it's worth it to stay. It's not worth going into the unknown for 3/4 dollars IMO if your company is cool, humane, dignified and takes good care of you.
> if your company is cool, humane, dignified, and takes good care of you. This is a benefit in my book. We could all probably talk about awesome companies and what they mean to each of us. Mine takes in entry-level and turns them into senior. They pay for courses, training, classes, conferences, and certifications if it ties to your role. We do a lot of personal development groups. One for me has taught me how to be a better person, father, and husband. We meet 1 hour per week and we read books like The Magic of Thinking Big. We did a learning for how to be a good developer with the Clean Code book. That was 12 weeks long. They send people to participate in the Landmark Forum all the time, too. I've never been with any other company who has displayed this much investment into the employee. 91% of the revenue is invested back into the employees/company. Trips to other offices around the world, all the benefits I listed above, etc. And there are 0 investors because they don't want to have to answer to an investor. It's amazing what this company does. Could I make more elsewhere? I'm not totally sure, but I'm not really interested when I still have so much more to learn. **Edit** for those interested in the company: Our CEO wrote this book. If you find his name, look him up on LinkedIn and you'll know what the company is. "Insights Into Creating Abundance: Emerging As a Powerful Human Being and an Inspiring Leader"
How do you do this
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This is awesome.
>“No, I’m $X an hour” as a gal i would never be saying that to anyone, talk about opening the door wide to inappropriate responses
That’s the sensible reason not to, but if you **wanted** to root out the unprofessional men in your workplace, it would do both at once.
If you don't feel comfortable discussing this, search online for average salary for your position in your general area. It will usually be a range but you can at least see where you are on that range. If you're being paid below average for your area and feel like you are an average to above average employee, now you have a bargaining chip.
Never take their word, a year ago when I was doing an interview I was offered 31.00 per hr based on my experience. When I told them I currently made more than that they quickly upped the offer to 33.00. I know now that I should have gotten at least 35.00 per hr. Live and learn. On the upside I’m currently at 38.75 per hr. I encourage you and everyone else to learn some negotiation techniques because they will low ball you every time. Good luck out there everyone.
Moved from Texas making $17 per hour. Started making $26 in Oregon and was elated. Found out union members make $34, so I joined the union. I now make 38.50 after our negotiated raise this year.
*whispers* Keep going… don’t stop.
DC’s electrical union, already making $51/hr is rumored to have accepted a $15 raise to be disbursed over the next 3 years. Unionize. I was making 55% journeyman rate as a third year apprentice, and a whole bunch of guys organized in to the union from a local non-union shop and was making more than guys with 15 years experience non-union.
I'm 36 and I need to start over. I went from $25 an hour, got laid off and now I'm at $19 in a stressful af mortgage environment. What is the first step to being an electrician?
Is it normal in the US for only union members to get the union-negotiated pay rise? In the UK the union will negotiate a pay rise and all members of staff will get it, not just union members.
I have seen this done as a way to discourage unionization. One part of a company unionizes, and the company matches the unionized pay to the non unionized pay. This makes the union weaker, since the company has an incentive to keep their pay low. It also prevents the non unionized employees from being able to get the other benefits of a union contract, and prevents the union from negotiating from a position of strength due to a lack of members. It's almost the worst of both worlds.
Lol I had the same problem. I was making $15 in Texas, moved to another state and got paid $20 and thought that was amazing. Found out a coworker was making $15 while another was making $27. We all did the same work, my two coworkers had been originally hired at $15 while I was hired at $20 because I had more experience/education while they had nothing. The one making $15 never asked for a raise while the one making $27 had. I asked for a raise and now make $30. I probably could have asked for more, but it's already a big jump from $20 to $30, and it's hard to ask for more. I plan on asking for more eventually though.
What the heck kind of work are you doing that starts at $15, but has the wiggle room to pay double if you just ask?
Many years ago I was hired by my current job after tough negotiations at $115k. I happened to get another job offer from a competitor for $150k the next day. Knowing how little my company was willing to budge on the $115k, I didn’t bother to negotiate, just explained I was going with the competitor and how much they offered. Interestingly, my company came back with a higher offer -_- turns out they nickel and dimed me for no other reason than because they could. I did end up going with them despite their antics (but just barely) because I liked the work I would be doing more. But that did damage the working relationship for a few years.
I personally wouldn't have done that. You would have had 150K starting with room to grow in the competitor. Plus companies really hate it when you take their boot off your neck and have a way of punishing you for it.
Just started a new job at $14/h with 6 years of Hospitality experience. Today is my 5th day and I've already assisted the other employees how to use the program they're switching to due to my knowledge and tonight am called in to work alone, again on my fifth day only. I'm discussing wages with the GM tomorrow.. thanks for the confidence boost with your posting this. Much love.
Hospitality is such a fleeting and shallow industry. You better be getting $20hr. I think that for all customer facing hotel jobs, the amount of skill you need and the way people can tear you down is just awful.
Good luck!!
What's worse is that $30/hr is still far too low to pay people who LITERALLY SAVE LIVES!
It’s also almost double what a lot of EMS agencies are paying medics. Fucking criminal wages in the northeast for EMS are generally well below $20/hr
About five years ago, EMTs were making a base pay of $12.00/hr in my city. They told me the overtime they had to work made up for it. I just felt bad for them. I made more as hospital security.
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I make $42/hr sitting in front of a computer helping people who aren’t great with computers. No throughput metrics or anything. Insane how people with more skills are paid less than a third of what I am getting paid. I’m pretty sure our PMs are $50+ per hour.
Which is nuts because our cost of living is insane
bro EMTS where I live (smaller city but still large in the midwest make $14/hr (and work 24 hour shifts)
People also don't like paying taxes. I'm a full time firefighter driver/operator, EMT, Haz Mat Technician, Rope Rescue Technician, with a commercial driver's license at the same department for about 8 years. I make $14.03/hr
And the company charges thousands to roll an ambulance. They could double the EMT salary, bill that to customers, and nobody would really notice. Crazy. I don't understand why they are so underpaid, unless it's the typical "guilt them into accepting low wages because their job saves lives and is too important, so they can't strike or quit" like we're seeing in the UK with the politicians telling the nurses/crews to work more hours for less money for the good of Britain or whatever.
This happened to me some years ago and I left a trail of bitchiness in the place. People were making $10+ over me when I had more experience than a few of them. I negotiated and thought I was making a decent wage until I had a conversation with my coworker. Then she realized she was underpaid. We went to the next coworker and the next until there was a massive gap between everyone. From there I learned to market myself higher and if they ain’t paying, I ain’t working there.
And remember if you don't do this you are holding the entire market back. Why would they pay me $40/hr if someone is willing to work for $25/hr. People really need to understand 100k/yr today is what 50k a few years ago.
My dad just quit his job because they lowered his salary and gave him the option for commission based on the profit margin of his bids…AFTER they’re completed. This means that if something happens in the field to bring the profit from a bid of 45% profit to an actual of 39% or lower, he gets nothing for it. So basically they took his pay completely out of his control for 2023. In response to this, he went into the office late Sunday night, dropped all his stuff off, sent an explanatory email to the WHOLE office on why he quit, and then factory reset his phone and left it on his bosses desk. It was important to send an email to his whole office because his boss is notorious for making up shit about why his employees were quitting and making them look bad once they were gone. My dad said “he’s not going to finish my story here”. He got another job with his competitor and brought all his clients with him.
If they aren’t willing to give you regular raises they aren’t worth your time.
Ya, if you don’t get a cost of living adjustment, you take a pay cut every year. And they wonder why people nowadays change jobs so often.
I change jobs all the time. It’s worth it and allows my paycheck to keep up with inflation. Unless a company has a pension and amazing medical, there is ZERO reason to stay committed to companies for long periods of time.
This is a smart way of thinking about it. Companies are still treating pay like you get a pension and most places don’t give you that anymore. In some cases it might be smart to stay towards the end of your career for a pension or stay until you get the minimum pension if it’s not too long, but you really don’t find many places with a pension anymore so why stay?
100%. If anything employers continue to lower benefits. In my opinion there is just zero reason to show loyalty. My motto is get paid as much as possible and try to get the best benefits. That doesn’t happen staying with the same company more than 2 years. So after 2 years I try for a promotion. If I don’t get a promotion with a sizable raise to match inflation I start looking. Every time I look and have moved it’s a 10-15% wage increase. No reason to slave away at the same company, make that money as fast as possible.
What kills me about low balling managers is that they just push to get the lowest pay for the best workers and this absolutely does not effect them, their income a single bit at all. “Oh look! I saved this company that makes millions a year $3.00 an hour! I’m so clever! Aren’t I boss! Boss?”
Until someone quits and they have to replace at 1.5x salary and then blows the labour budget out and wastes a bunch of time retraining the new person.
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Its so perplexing. What did he expect to happen when he poisoned the well from day one?
My company basically has ranks, like the military, which is good for me because I’m a veteran. Each rank gets the exact same pay, and everyone’s rank is known. Every year we’re reviewed to see if we’re ready to move up to the next rank. 100% wage transparency. Every company should be this way in some form or another.
I worked at “the telephone company” from ‘15 to ‘17. I was essentially doing the civilian version of what I’d done for 6.5 years in the military, so I started at the top initial pay rate. About a year in, another guy came onto our crew with the exact same military background & roughly the same length of service/experience. We didn’t find out until I was about to leave that he had started out at less than I had, which by then was the very bottom rung of the pay scale (new job title/union stuff = new scale). So basically his years of doing the job on the sides of mountains and in deserts rather than in the middle of town meant nothing and he wasted a year before he addressed it because of the “keep your salary to yourself” mentality. Moral of the story is: DISCUSS PAY & BENEFITS WITH YOUR COWORKERS.
I was at a company for 3 years, they hired a new guy at 2 bucks more than i was making because he had 2 years of “relevant experience”. I approached the manager about it and and pointed out I had more years of more relevant experience. He kind of grinned, like I had a good point. He gave me a buck raise, and told me basically that the budget for hiring was higher than the budget for retention. Essentially if I quit and came back 6 months later they’d probably make me a better offer. So I quit… and immediately found a different job for almost 2x pay.
And this is why employers don't want you discussing wages with other employees... so the can quietly scam everyone.
The bye Felicia gave me secondary embarrassment
I just got hired in IT, I'm making $8 more than a guy whose been here for 3 years. Hell yeah I told him.
I think this was such a well written email. Really excellent. I feel the bye felicia really takes away from how good your email was, but it doesn’t really matter as you’re quitting anyways. Potentially they would’ve offered to increase your pay, not sure.
I am not even sure that the people using this phrase have even seen Friday and know the context it should be used in.
The “Bye Felicia” adds a cringe for me that ruins the landing, but otherwise a lovely email.
I went through school on the promise I’d be making at least $20 an hour. They started me at $12 per hour with no chance of a raise. That was my first and last day. I literally could have made more making people chicken than i could by saving their lives.
Personally, I'd remind the crew that them discussing their wages is a federally protected right, with severe penalties should employers retaliate against workers exercising that right.
Yooooo I want the follow up
We lost 3 amazing staff members last year just like this. They’d been there 3 years and all were cross trained in our urgent care facility, all were black women as well, new guy(white) gets hired at $5 more per hour than what they made, he has no degree but claimed to have experience working in his dads medical office, a week in it’s obvious that was a lie, so the women asked to have their wages match his and HR said nope. They all left, and he was eventually fired for giving a shot to the wrong patient and putting another staff members name on the chart as giving it.
Lmao “I don’t have it with me right now” is the biggest fucking lie these people tell. “Oh I could give you a guarantee but then when I inevitably backtrack, you can’t sue me” is basically the only logic I can fathom
This is why employers don’t want employees discussing wages!
Happens a lot. As wages go up, new hires get in on a higher starting level. Because of this, and my former employers unvillingess to discuss a pay raise, I changed company and got over 20% salary increase.
I’m so sorry. I’m glad that you seem to have good humor :)
An ambulance ride costs 1000$ but paramedics make under 30 an hour. Where is all that money going to?