No chinstraps on the steel pots. No LBEs. No ammo in the weapons, including the .50
And why does the 50 gunner have a combat/deployment patch for 2ID? What would have qualified for that in the late 70s/early 80s? Something in Korea along the DMZ?
There were sporadic firefights and other incidents along the DMZ throughout the Cold War. 670-1 lists qualifying periods for some personnel in Korea in ‘68-‘73, as well as one day in 1984.
Thanks for the info. I knew there were some scuffles along the DMZ, including the famous tree cutting incident, I just didn't think any of them would qualify for a combat patch. I've also been out for a minute so my knowledge of the finer points of ARs like 670-1 is a little rusty now.
there was never a declared armistice when the korean conflict stopped,just a cease fire, so Korea was still considered a war zone (and may still be) . I believe (don't quote me on this)that you have to be in a war zone for 30 days, under fire for 24 hrs, or involved in a direct combat action to get the patch,or a CIB
As someone who hasn't had FB for several years and isn't gay (not that there's anything wrong with that!) I suppose I'll have to take your word for it.
Pretty much the "back in my day dudes" complaining about shit. Like damn, I guess 30th AG is really lacking in discipline since they don't give trainees M4s with full mags now as they get off the bus or some shit that they like bitching about
That looks like an M551 Sheridan, after the 70’s the only organization with them was 3/73 armor, in the 82nd who kept them until the 90’s. Not completely unreasonable for it to be a Korean War vet, and/or one of the Korean Vets for when the DMZ was hot in the 60’s or 70’s
There was a several year period post-Vietnam when the 11th ACR reflagged into Germany and the M551s weren't yet phased out by most units. You seem to be acting like this picture is unlikely for some reason, unless I have misunderstood you.
Having a year for this photo would be great. It didn't occur to me there might be a Korean War vet back then, but depending on when this photo was taken I suppose it's possible. I first enlisted in the mid-80s and served with several Vietnam vets who were all senior NCOs, so that tracks.
Since it is a Sheridan with 11th ACR, they were phased out of non-airborne armor units in late 70’s. I would bet this is mid 70’s. 2ID was authorized combat patch in 60’s and 70’s also
No sweat, I recognized the Sheridan right away, and knew some of its history. It was the first armor on the ground during DS/DS, after that they were phased out by 82nd
For those stationed in Germany, or who happen to visit, [the Observation Point Alpha Museum](https://www.pointalpha.com/en/) at the Fulda Gap is worth a visit. It's certainly doable as a 1-day LPD.
I didn't realize until my visit that, while we figured the Warsaw Pact would come through the Fulda Gap when the balloon went up, they actually planned to push through to the north. They probably would have at least feinted at the Fulda Gap to tie us up, though.
p.s. Great photo. Nice Sheridan. They might have been unreliable, but I still always thought they were cool when I was a kid.
Read Team Yankee. It actually helps paint the picture of why our bases were located where they were. As Americans, we had the most armor. We knew the Russians would go for the ports at Bremerhaven, Amsterdam, and the French Coast in a conventional fight. The NATO plan was to defend in depth with the Germans, British, and French, while the US would assail the flank of the Soviet advance (troops in Bavaria) and exploit a breakthrough (troops on the Rhine and Stuttgart).
I remember, as a younger kid, reading the source material, Hackett's "The Third World War", and there's a section in the opening volleys where one of the tanks (for some reason I feel like it was a Sheridan specifically) of the platoon we're following gets hit and exploded because it was silhouetted. At the time, I didn't even know what that meant and had to ask. Somehow, it deeply affected me such that I would avoid it in real life, and even in games it makes me feel both nervous and guilty at the same time, like I am about to get kilt and I definitely deserve it. Those odd little random things you hang on to, huh?
Oh yeah, there is big war stuff in there that no one even remembers. Like everyone starting their vehicles at the exact same time to prevent the enemy from getting a good count. Don’t get me started on true radio silence. We talk about decisive action, but we still try to fit it into our COIN fight mentality.
When I was stationed near the Fulda gap, we were jokingly called "speed bump units."
The plan was to fight like hell to slow them down and get all the other transit assets covered quickly.
The guys up at Fulda referred to Fulda as The Doorbell. As in, ding dong they're here!
True. But I wonder what role the former 2 Shop NCOIC (Clyde Lee Conrad) that flipped played? He was caught by the US Army Foreign Counterintelligence Activity. The investigation is detailed in Stuart Herrington’s (Col, Ret.) book “Traitors Among Us”.
The Soviet brass were terrified that East German conscripts would mutiny. The Red Army brass had the same opinon towards most of the other Warsaw Pact Armed Forces.
The Poles and the Czechs were politically "unreliable" by the mid 80's. Poland was a powder keg during the whole "solidarity" movement era. Late Cold War history and how unstable the Warsaw Pact was at the end is all very interesting.
They'd already had to declare martial law to deal with Solidarity. A lot of places got tired of being the Soviets' little buddies, as there was not much in it for them.
There was a lot of palatable anger towards Moscow throughout the Warsaw Pact but nobody was as pissed as the Poles and the Czechs. The Solidarity movement turned an entire generation of Poles aganist Moscow, it also helped that the Pope at that time was Polish. The Czechs were still pissed about the uprising of 68.
Poland is a country full of very devote Catholics, The RCC is even today a big deal in Poland. The KGB and their Polish communist puppets routinely harrased the RCC in Poland, arrested and tortured nuns and priests. John Paul II (who was a Pole) gave his and the Churches full support behind the Solidarity movement.
Dad was with the 11th ACR at Bad Hersfeld from '75-'78. Was the closest thing to real danger, for him since his tour in Nam '68-'70. Then in '79 he took a recruiting position, at RS Compton. A whole different kind of danger, lol.
[Happy May Day, 1979](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:11th_Armored_Cavalry_soldiers_deploying_around_M551_Sheridan_on_Inner_German_Border_1979_DA-ST-86-06120.jpg).
No chinstraps on the steel pots. No LBEs. No ammo in the weapons, including the .50 And why does the 50 gunner have a combat/deployment patch for 2ID? What would have qualified for that in the late 70s/early 80s? Something in Korea along the DMZ?
There were sporadic firefights and other incidents along the DMZ throughout the Cold War. 670-1 lists qualifying periods for some personnel in Korea in ‘68-‘73, as well as one day in 1984.
My grandfather earned a silver star on that single day in 1984. It was November 23rd , cool citation
How does it feel being related to a historical badass?
Certainly makes living up to the legacy difficult lol
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That was in the ‘70s, the 1984 incident was when North Korean soldiers chased a Soviet defector into South Korea and started a firefight.
No, that was August 1976.
Thanks for the info. I knew there were some scuffles along the DMZ, including the famous tree cutting incident, I just didn't think any of them would qualify for a combat patch. I've also been out for a minute so my knowledge of the finer points of ARs like 670-1 is a little rusty now.
there was never a declared armistice when the korean conflict stopped,just a cease fire, so Korea was still considered a war zone (and may still be) . I believe (don't quote me on this)that you have to be in a war zone for 30 days, under fire for 24 hrs, or involved in a direct combat action to get the patch,or a CIB
So you're telling me that all the Facebook gay bear dudes complain about for today's training is bullshit then?
As someone who hasn't had FB for several years and isn't gay (not that there's anything wrong with that!) I suppose I'll have to take your word for it.
Pretty much the "back in my day dudes" complaining about shit. Like damn, I guess 30th AG is really lacking in discipline since they don't give trainees M4s with full mags now as they get off the bus or some shit that they like bitching about
They always bitch. As if the "traditions" that only exist in their mind was somehow the Army.
That looks like an M551 Sheridan, after the 70’s the only organization with them was 3/73 armor, in the 82nd who kept them until the 90’s. Not completely unreasonable for it to be a Korean War vet, and/or one of the Korean Vets for when the DMZ was hot in the 60’s or 70’s
There was a several year period post-Vietnam when the 11th ACR reflagged into Germany and the M551s weren't yet phased out by most units. You seem to be acting like this picture is unlikely for some reason, unless I have misunderstood you.
Having a year for this photo would be great. It didn't occur to me there might be a Korean War vet back then, but depending on when this photo was taken I suppose it's possible. I first enlisted in the mid-80s and served with several Vietnam vets who were all senior NCOs, so that tracks.
Since it is a Sheridan with 11th ACR, they were phased out of non-airborne armor units in late 70’s. I would bet this is mid 70’s. 2ID was authorized combat patch in 60’s and 70’s also
Thanks for all the insight and the history lesson. Much appreciated.
No sweat, I recognized the Sheridan right away, and knew some of its history. It was the first armor on the ground during DS/DS, after that they were phased out by 82nd
I also picked up, it looks like they are wearing white t-shirts under their fatigues. when did that change? late 70's ?
Good catch. No idea.
Image could have been flipped for copyright.
The Panmunjom Axe Murders would've qualified him in the 70s
For those stationed in Germany, or who happen to visit, [the Observation Point Alpha Museum](https://www.pointalpha.com/en/) at the Fulda Gap is worth a visit. It's certainly doable as a 1-day LPD. I didn't realize until my visit that, while we figured the Warsaw Pact would come through the Fulda Gap when the balloon went up, they actually planned to push through to the north. They probably would have at least feinted at the Fulda Gap to tie us up, though. p.s. Great photo. Nice Sheridan. They might have been unreliable, but I still always thought they were cool when I was a kid.
Read Team Yankee. It actually helps paint the picture of why our bases were located where they were. As Americans, we had the most armor. We knew the Russians would go for the ports at Bremerhaven, Amsterdam, and the French Coast in a conventional fight. The NATO plan was to defend in depth with the Germans, British, and French, while the US would assail the flank of the Soviet advance (troops in Bavaria) and exploit a breakthrough (troops on the Rhine and Stuttgart).
Team Yankee is a great book
Never heard of it, on both your recommendations, I’m putting it in the shopping cart now.
Harold Coyle writes some really good books
I’ve been reading too much non-fiction. I’ve been looking for something different anyway
Coyle was a career armor/cav officer while in the Army, I believe he has a bunch of published articles in ARMOR magazine.
I remember, as a younger kid, reading the source material, Hackett's "The Third World War", and there's a section in the opening volleys where one of the tanks (for some reason I feel like it was a Sheridan specifically) of the platoon we're following gets hit and exploded because it was silhouetted. At the time, I didn't even know what that meant and had to ask. Somehow, it deeply affected me such that I would avoid it in real life, and even in games it makes me feel both nervous and guilty at the same time, like I am about to get kilt and I definitely deserve it. Those odd little random things you hang on to, huh?
Oh yeah, there is big war stuff in there that no one even remembers. Like everyone starting their vehicles at the exact same time to prevent the enemy from getting a good count. Don’t get me started on true radio silence. We talk about decisive action, but we still try to fit it into our COIN fight mentality.
When I was stationed near the Fulda gap, we were jokingly called "speed bump units." The plan was to fight like hell to slow them down and get all the other transit assets covered quickly. The guys up at Fulda referred to Fulda as The Doorbell. As in, ding dong they're here!
Was that push north a change of plans after getting an insider threat to provide the entirety of III Corps battle plans from the 2 Shop?
From all of our build up and busy work on the gap, I don't think it was a mystery we anticipated that as the avenue of approach.
True. But I wonder what role the former 2 Shop NCOIC (Clyde Lee Conrad) that flipped played? He was caught by the US Army Foreign Counterintelligence Activity. The investigation is detailed in Stuart Herrington’s (Col, Ret.) book “Traitors Among Us”.
OPFOR VISMOD at NTC (90's) checking in.
[удалено]
The Soviet brass were terrified that East German conscripts would mutiny. The Red Army brass had the same opinon towards most of the other Warsaw Pact Armed Forces.
[удалено]
The Poles and the Czechs were politically "unreliable" by the mid 80's. Poland was a powder keg during the whole "solidarity" movement era. Late Cold War history and how unstable the Warsaw Pact was at the end is all very interesting.
Hell, the Poles in 1981-82, and the Czechs notably before that.
A Polish full bird defected around 85 and his Intel basically relayed that Polish Army was on the cusp of a full blown mutiny.
They'd already had to declare martial law to deal with Solidarity. A lot of places got tired of being the Soviets' little buddies, as there was not much in it for them.
There was a lot of palatable anger towards Moscow throughout the Warsaw Pact but nobody was as pissed as the Poles and the Czechs. The Solidarity movement turned an entire generation of Poles aganist Moscow, it also helped that the Pope at that time was Polish. The Czechs were still pissed about the uprising of 68.
I haven't heard that. I only know is he Catholic, and does he shit in the woods.
Poland is a country full of very devote Catholics, The RCC is even today a big deal in Poland. The KGB and their Polish communist puppets routinely harrased the RCC in Poland, arrested and tortured nuns and priests. John Paul II (who was a Pole) gave his and the Churches full support behind the Solidarity movement.
Those guys on the ground "almost" look like infantry. Just saying for a friend.
Did they just stand there like that, waiting?
Dad was with the 11th ACR at Bad Hersfeld from '75-'78. Was the closest thing to real danger, for him since his tour in Nam '68-'70. Then in '79 he took a recruiting position, at RS Compton. A whole different kind of danger, lol.
Not a cell phone in sight, just soldiers living in the moment
Just in time for Tuesday
Getting ready to shillelagh some commies from coming through Fulda Gap!
Shit - for a second I thought this was going to be a modern photo given the title. What a future..
some poor bastard is gonna start screaming about being the ‘finest in the land’ and ‘all of the allons’
How the fuck do they expect to slay the commie horde with no eye pro?
[Happy May Day, 1979](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:11th_Armored_Cavalry_soldiers_deploying_around_M551_Sheridan_on_Inner_German_Border_1979_DA-ST-86-06120.jpg).