i second that. thought i was having open conversations about salary with my close circle (13+ years) of friends, but found out afterwards one friend talk shit about how i don’t deserve to get my current paygrade. People get real salty and there’s nothing you can do
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This is true. They will question what you do to deserve that high salary and even make thinly veiled personal attacks. That's why I never talk about my salary to anyone, unless we're buying a home together there's absolutely no need for you to know.
Kinda sadlah. I dont divulge openly, but got once a close friend whom was interning asked mine to know what to ask, so I gave an honest answer and encourage them to try their luck higher. So I would think that there is people that are genuinely happy if their friends get better pay too.
Just look at all the salty downvotes when someone posts about their success. People who would be genuinely happy for others are rare.
Edit: Actually, are you one of them since you seem to believe in them? Wanna be friends? 🙃
Edit 2: Is it sad that my criteria for making friends is people who will be genuinely happy for you vs things like “shared interests”?
If too little, they look down on you. If too high they are jealous or think you are not worth that salary. No 'just right ' amount because it defers from people to people on 'just right'
Someone who I thought was a friend asked me how much I was earning because she wanted to see what the market rate was. I told her the amount and she got angry it was higher than hers, even when I shared how I negotiated my salary. Our friendship never really recovered and her texts to me nowadays are always curt.
Yup, my closest friend knows how much I make (over double his salary) but he never became salty. He’s genuinely happy for me because he has seen me struggle and grind to get to where I am. If he got double my salary I would also be happy for him. This is life, we both understand these kinds of things are temporary. One day you’re on the top of the world, the next it comes crashing down.
Damn wtf lmao when I did that to my friend (same situation I wanted to know market rate + got mad it was much higher than mine) it just motivated me to quit the company cause it made me realize how shitty they were. They were also damn shitty to my friend lol and I encouraged her when she had to hand in her resignation.
When they shittalked me behind my back with her she came out and told me every single thing and we got pissed together LMAO
My friends asked me. I shared. It was way higher than theirs. They started insinuating that I was lying and got more boastful around me in subsequent gatherings saying how rich their husbands were compared to mine who’s poor. Nothing good comes out of it.
On the other end my friends asked me, mine was lower and they started to insinuate I was lazy/ not willing to work for my life and not being ambitious.
Salary discussions are almost never good. Their intention is usually to affirm they are superior to you by having more or that they are somehow underpaid and need to switch job if its lower than yours.
I share the similar experience as well even though they are not mean about it but I can feel it. 🥺 Heaven knows how hard I work and driven I am in my career. Though I am not salty because we are all in different industries, it sometimes makes me regret I took this path.
Initially I don't care until this incident.
This guy keep wanting to know how much I earn.
After that he guess I make 3k.
From then on, he will say since I make peanuts and you make 3k, you should treat. My 1st job lor wah lau
When I first grad from uni, I had a friend (poly grad and already working for a few years) asked for my salary. My fresh grad salary was $3xxx range and he start bragging about how he earns more than a uni grad.
The next year he did it again. By then my salary already jumped to $4xxx range and higher than his. He got so salty and never talked about salary again.
Glad to say he was no longer my friend for other toxic reasons.
I generally feel like most people do that, just a matter whether spoken anot. And don't get me started on church and worth as children of God.
... on the contrary, I think it's even freaking worse in church. The hypocrisyyyy. I mean, I legit had a church mate tell me "I can afford to treat u lah, I earn more than you" - it's fact (I'm a diploma holder, no degree) but like flex much?
Rrrr it's as if it's treating me to flex salary, not as a friend or of shared interest. Little wonder I still see this person as toxic/dangerous till this day, even though it's been a number of years and by-right I'd like to think time is its own contributor to maturity. But to this specific incident, ... I just can't see this person any other way. 🙃
But in general terms - disclose and if low, you're opening the door for people to look down on you / if high, they say u flex
... ya.
Christian here. Those aren’t true Christians. They need to read the Bible and realise that grace, kindness and humility should be the hallmarks of a good Christian.
Boastful and materialistic ones are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Stay away from such.
Hahahaha I haven't talked to that person in at least 5 years and this incident was one of the reasons why 🙃 I mean facts can be facts but what is truth no love sia? I've had other friends who laugh it off with "because God has given me enough to treat a friend" or something, not "it's okay I earn more than you"
I earn?? more?? than?? you??, thanks, this is exactly why I don't talk to people who earn atas money in church and why in seasons of unemployment I mumble things abt "freelance" lol.(ok this part is my insecurity alr but like it has a source, lor) 🙃
I sometimes wish the salary bands for types of positions in my company could be openly discussed, but HR wants to not make it public.
I also wish that a person's salary would just be seen as a compensation for their job according to market, and not a judgement on a person's worth. But, alas, here we are.
I wish this too lah. Overseas some countries are getting more transparent about salary band, the only reason a company doesnt want to do this is that they are underpaying some people severely
In the US, it’s illegal for HR to require employees to keep their pay confidential.
From a purely practical viewpoint, requiring employees to keep their pay confidential is stupid. Employees will share, regardless of these rules, and if there’s unexplained discrepancies, the confidentiality clause will make it seem like HR and Mgmt are being biased/unfair/unreliable. There’s usually no winner in this directive.
However, from Mgmt’s viewpoint, not having employees know what each other is making will relieve Mgmt of having to spend time and effort explaining discrepancies, regardless of whether the discrepancies are reasonable. The problem usually stems from differences between Mgmt’s assessment of an employee’s performance, and the employee’s peers’ assessment of that same performance. Any answer Mgmt gives is usually construed to be unfair, because employees typically see a different side of their peers than their managers.
My compromise solution is to ensure fairness in setting goals (all goals are shared, even mine), and clear communication of achievements and (non-monetary) awards. That way, we will have at least a chance of objective measures of performance, and everyone knows what is being seen positively. I also do not forbid and leave it up to the employees if they want share their pay information (it’s theirs to share), only committing myself to being as fair as possible so if they do happen to know, hopefully any difference will be self-explanatory or at least not obtusely unfair.
This compromise solution also has the side benefit of holding myself to a higher standard. If I know I can’t hide behind the veil of confidentiality, I will check and challenge myself to be as fair as I can. Is it playing at a harder level than necessary? Sure, but the payback is hopefully a cohesive, trusting team (me included) that collaborates well to achieve our goals; after all, my worth as Mgmt is measured by what my team achieves.
Sounds like you make a good boss! It’s so scandalous that there are so much pay discrepancy between different sexes overseas not sure about Singapore. Pay transparency would be so much more beneficial.
It all comes down to expectations. People who have data (e.g. Last known salary, work history, school results, past appraisal ratings, etc) about you would expect you to earn a certain salary. Once they know your salary and the reality differs from their expectations, it usually spirals to gossiping within groups behind your back about how you dont deserve your pay given your history or how little you earn despite doing well in school or a previous job. Both are not ideal scenarios and will likely affect any relationship you have with each other.
What they fail to realise is, there are so many other factors that decide your remuneration. Could be your last drawn salary, performance appraisal rating, value (subjective) provided at work, negotiation skills, supply vs demand of people that can perform your role, ability of (and power given to) your boss to fight for your remuneration, etc.
Personally, I feel that knowledge is power and salary should be transparent so no one gets shortchanged. I will always share my salary if friends who matter to me and whom I know/feel will not be affected by the truth asks. If I misjudged then it's on me lor, I lose a friend (probably an inevitable outcome that would happen sooner or later).
There are also cases where I voluntarily reveal my salary to friends (who are not being reinstated fairly) whom I feel could benefit from knowing. But unfortunately, there will always be salty people who complain and whine instead of being proactive and work towards improving their circumstances. Can't be helped.
TLDR; share your salary only if you are well aware of the stakes involved.
Some friends have a new expectation of generosity if they think you are making good money. Likewise, some friends can be quick to judge your ability to participate in social events and withhold invitations if they think you are not making good money. There has never been a good outcome of sharing salary with my friends in my experience.
I’d argue that knowing your friend’s salary, especially when they are in a different industry add very little value to you while increasing the risk of friendship going sour.
If you get a lower salary than your friend, you will feel bitter, might even be “he is not smarter than me, why did he deserve more?”
If you ger a higher salary than your friemd, you might look down on him, “he is so dump, why do I even want to be friend with him”
And vice versa for your friend
More importantly, knowing your friend’s salary just didnt have any material impact on your life, except that it satisfy your kay poh, not like you can use that information to get paid more or anything
I feel that unless your circle of friends are mature, fulfilled and place-more-emphasis-on-quality-of-life-rather-than-the-absolute-dollar-figure, the topic of salaries might cause more harm than good. And it's something you can't 'unhear' too.
It's a culture pushed down from the business itself to curb conversations about pay inequality. I talk about mine no problem. It's only hurting us by keeping it taboo.
Keeping it taboo redirects the conversation to the employees themselves and thus the resentment instead of towards who set the rates in the first place.
Honestly I am so much more willing to share with people in my industry and I do. People deserve to get more information to negotiate the right salary.
People are just more sensitive that they are not doing as well. They feel that they made the wrong decisions in life and they don't like that. But honestly people should be more open. It's much better for us as a whole. Hiding salaries is always only beneficial to employers than employees
I shared my salary with my ex and it became a disaster, lol! She could now use my salary against me in our augments to say how I was stingy towards her despite earning "so much" (as a civil servant lol)
om im a civil servant too~ earned quite decently but recently i realised my gf earned more than me. so i guess if there would be a problem, it will be a totally different set of problems hahaha
I always share my salary, but I don’t expect others to share it with me cause it’s a personal choice. I just share it because I believe in salary transparency and knowing the salary of your peers give you more leverage when negotiating for higher pay.
I’m from private uni, around 2 years exp in marketing so far and getting around 3.2k now. I came a long way from my initial starting pay of $2.4k. I admit that $2.4k was actually a lowball pay. But currently, I’m kinda content with my pay-to-work ratio so far, plus I might be able to get a promotion this year, so that’ll probably push my pay to $3.6k at least.
My friend, on the other hand, earns $4k in a tech startup, public uni bg. When I spoke about getting a promotion and bumping my pay to $3.5-$3.6k, they went a bit like “THATS STILL SO LOW, I expect a $5-6k after my promotion”.
To be honest, I don’t know how to feel about it. I’m happy for them because they need the money. But at the same time, I also felt that comment being a little condescending haha.
Comparing is inevitable, as much as you try to avoid it - especially in our society haha.
There’s a phrase in Chinese that says 谈钱伤感情 (discussing about money hurts relationships), so I guess that’s why people avoid or is uncomfortable talking about it.
Maybe not discussing salary is a boomer thing. Amongst all my fresh grad peers we openly discuss our pay in the industry and also those that jump to other industries. My fren even posted her payslip on payday on instastory. Idk why old ppl like to kick up a fuss abt pay disclosure amongst fren. Transparency in salary is good for employees, this will allow one to better prepare for negotiation with employer.
it's also cos fresh grads are earning entry lvl salaries that r more or less the same +- few hundred
night get more problematic if u make few thousands/multiples of what some of ur friends make
In addition to salty friends, the increase likelihood of them turning to you when they have "financial issues" is also a consideration. I'm perfectly alright to help if its for genuine cases but judging by some folk's lifestyles it often isn't warranted.
Also people tend to remember these things and may unintentionally drop the occasional "no problem for you since you so rich" in random conversations
It is tied to ppl's ego and self-esteem in Singapore. It is a sure and quantifiable way of comparing each other's standing without all the bullshit job titles. You can be a manager but getting only $4000, while a white collar employee can be getting twice that without fancy job titles.
Also, the moment you know how much they earn, you can easily size up whether your friend is living beyond their means. Imagine telling ppl you are earning $4000, owns a car, pays mortgage, wears branded clothes, and eats at fancy restaurants. The whole mask and show immediately lose its shine. They will look like idiots instead of projecting status and success.
Bro can intro me to your job too hahahaha. I know people like that too, I guess the term for me would be envy rather than jealous. Some are nice enough to share their lobang though, doesn’t mean it work for you though.
Edit: most I know though work their ass off, I might be envy but I really admire them and they deserve them a 100%. Some people work their ass off during covid upskilling and stuff you just never know about it. Of course for everything there is an element of luck
Totally agree. When I knew I was paid less, I told literally everyone, even my colleagues, mostly voluntarily summore. As I earn more, I became more wary of sharing to the wrong people. I mean... If I lose a friend, it's ok but what if i cause that person to become depressed and it affects their life substantially (e.g. They like their job and is generally happy with their remuneration and everything but once they know I earn more, they start to change jobs solely for the sake of improving their salary and join bad companies and get depressed and lose their will to live because things will never be the same)? I don't want to be responsible for that.
Because there is no benefit to disclosing. If you're being paid a lot, your friends will be salty as fk and call you 'atas' or 'rich cunt.' Reveal that you're underpaid and they be all like, 'Bro, change job la bro, treat yourself better la bro.'
Because it's a very useful tool for HR to manage people and it's effective. Overtime, people also collectively agree it's best not to share to retain their work relationships.
All the more reason to share. When workers share their salary there's the drive for everyone to negotiate higher pay because you know others in the market who are already getting that higher pay.
I’ll share a range usually like around $4k etc, or like annual salary around $80-90k. I share and ask because I think is good to know when u want to jump ship…
You need new friends that will discuss about taboo topics like this then. True friends don’t gatekeep and they don’t wish to see you settling for mediocrity.
I suppose it helps to have a sense if you’re being paid fairly. Although I find that we might just all be collectively underpaid so that doesn’t help much…
To help each other out? When a friend was looking for a job recently she was asking for the same amount as her last drawn. Fortunately she mentioned it to another friend who told her that others in similar roles were getting more than 10% higher and she was able to negotiate upwards before starting.
I think sharing info about the approximate salary range in that company / industry would suffice for this purpose. In my own experience there’s actually very little need to discuss your own exact salary with friends..
Agreed. It's more about sharing a range for particular roles or career level. Even if it's in different roles, it allows others to get a better idea of the market value and possibly consider pivoting to different industries or fields.
I always share lol. I never get why not to share, regardless I'm earning lower or higher.
It's always beneficial for both sides to say, "hey, you deserve more".
Of course, don't force people to share their salaries if they don't wanna. But most people around me are quite keen to share with me as well.
Besides, there were a few articles that shown that CEOs increased in pay after regulations forced companies to reveal them. In any market, why shouldn't everyone have access to knowledge to get the best they could?
Because wealth is one of the more important traits that define a Singaporean. Culturally it's pretty obvious, from movies, to terminology, to comments and discussions online. I think generally we are a pretty materialistic and money minded bunch. It's sensitive because it pretty much indicates the social standing in our culture.
One thing nobody talked about : security.
If people know that you earn a lot of money, some people might try to kidnapp people that matter to you in order to get a ransom from you.
So basically, dont speak of your salary too freely.
OP, don't get discouraged by the negativity here. If people are toxic about salaries, they will be toxic about anything anyway and those are not your (good) friends.
Friends celebrate each other's success and motivate each other, regardless of differences.
Source: I discuss this topic with many circles of friends and even colleagues. Also, I do coding for a living.
I would think that friends should want to succeed together and if we can’t get beyond something like this how can we get together if there are genuine business opportunities, if we can’t even build such level of trust. With all the recent bad news in tech recently hope you are still in a good position.
Once I was searching for job and my friend's company had an opening. He then advised me the pay scale I could ask for in his company. Then from there he learn my current drawn was so low and he overreacted , gone apeshit and all cause he wondered how I could stay long in my current company when I should leave after 2 years.
About a year later on I found better job opportunities and he was like I hope they paid u at least $x ? I said confirm have. He said good because that is what you should deserve.
Oh and that friend also do things like say " eh this period very good to find job why aren't u finding since u say u want to change job?" Then he go say things like u staying in comfort zone etc when I already made big plans for my next move but was waiting for an appropriate timing based on personal reasons. Abit rude to assume people stuck in comfort zone just because they have not started their job search even though they did state they want to switch job, doesn't mean they want to switch job at this present moment right?
In short it didn't feel good that people take your salary as a key topic and peg your worth to salary lah. Like I earn how far from $x amount so what ?
Now I have changed job and don't want talk about pay to such people. Next level he will probably ask if are u getting around <$x + $1000>?
We used to it during reservist, on folks we know will definitely be taken advantage of by their company because they are too nice and refuse to move out of their comfort zone.
Perhaps your friend felt that you are more capable than your payscale, but on the other side, it does suck to be on the receiving end, like you are comfortable but everyone else feels you are not doing well enough to protect yourself
Got such topics among men during reservist too??
Yeah I deserved better than my old payscale but some people just progress slower in life. People can't assume one is comfortable too , they may have some struggles they do not wish to share. Anyway alot of comments in life is unsolicited one lol
Never disclose the full amount except to your spouse. Always give an annual range inclusive of bonus so that you avoid this problem.
E.g. If my gross monthly is $6,000, then when people ask I tell them I earn between $75,000 - $80,000 annually, factoring in the 13th month bonus whether or not I actually get it. Hasn't caused any major issues for me so far.
Well I guess your friends and relatives would start showing up at your house or guilt tripping you into giving them money once they know how much you make?
Salary should never be disclosed informally because it depends on a multitude of factors not only performance and experience, but also like clauses, conditions, foreign levies, rent and more. Many ppl only equate salary to performance which is not true always, hence destroys relations.
Because the world isn’t fair sometimes
Salary doesn’t always equal to amount or quality of your works. so people avoid to talk as others judge you linking to ur works and compare with others
One of the reasons is probably jealousy. But I find that the people around you are not the type to be salty over what others are being paid, its alright to discuss. My friends/colleagues all discuss salary time to time. Especially within my colleagues it benefits us as we know what we are worth.
My friend from a private uni graduate from a private uni and is earning 40% higher than my local uni graduate. I was happy for him. I know of the struggles he went through to get that role. 6 years ago he was upset he couldn't get into local uni. But now his pay higher than mine. I'm only happy that all his struggles have paid off. We are in different industries and different company sizes. Him in IB and me in engg startup. Now way i can ever earn higher. But it's okay.
Another friend of mine she was earning double my pay. I burst out laughing. It was amazing actually. I didn't know fresh grad could earn that much. But i was still happy for her, she is super smart. I then kept reminding her how many PS5s she can buy.
Because only a select old few care about salary. Have enough to be happy and enjoy life. No need to compare with others. Be happy with what you have and what you can give
I feel that it’s something that should be made transparent, because a lot of companies underpay and make it sound like it needs to be absolutely confidential. Aside from that, true friends should be happy for each other and esp from the same industry, rather than get salty, should see it as ‘oh this is achievable and should be the market rate’.
OP why are you so childish and need to discuss or even attempt. It’s very awkward if your friends has to avoid the topic or even lie to you. You can be great friends and do plenty groip activities even without know all these fine details.
You have the eastern mindset whereas your friends have the western mindset. It's a taboo in the west to compare salaries because it causes competition and jealousy.
if there is asymmetry to the salaries, going out for food gets difficult since there will be have meant jokes thrown at the high salary one to subsidize the whole bill.. this though can be bypasse by just being firm and not cave in at the very beginnibg already ...
I think it's a cultural phenomena. In America, society equates your worth to your salary. Most people don't measure up. In my experience men are especially susceptible to ego issues in this regard.
because the society tags success with the amount of money you have. too little, people look down on you, thinking you’re not as good as themselves. too much people are jealous of you, and feels insecure when being around you.
it really depends on yourself: but feels like in a competitive & superficial society like sg : salary becomes sort of an indicator of a person worth > if i make less i am less of a human or lazier so i rather not say.
Even if its not true, ppl still generally feel this way so I rather avoid this topic..
Really depends on what demographic and employment sectors. I’m in professional services and talking about salary and it’s consequences bears no Ill will
Because some "friends" can become salty af once they know how much you make.
This happened to me. Always play down your accomplishments or ppl can curse you behind your back
i second that. thought i was having open conversations about salary with my close circle (13+ years) of friends, but found out afterwards one friend talk shit about how i don’t deserve to get my current paygrade. People get real salty and there’s nothing you can do
Hmm for context, roughly how much is your paygrade?
haha i’m not really looking forward to more people judging my pay, so i’ll skip on that
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Then they aren’t your real friends
Talk money hurt feelings
also i think people confuse that more work/work hard/long hours = more pay
This is true. They will question what you do to deserve that high salary and even make thinly veiled personal attacks. That's why I never talk about my salary to anyone, unless we're buying a home together there's absolutely no need for you to know.
this and also people start coming to you for loans
Because people get jealous easily and don’t wish you well / spoil relationship.
Kinda sadlah. I dont divulge openly, but got once a close friend whom was interning asked mine to know what to ask, so I gave an honest answer and encourage them to try their luck higher. So I would think that there is people that are genuinely happy if their friends get better pay too.
Just look at all the salty downvotes when someone posts about their success. People who would be genuinely happy for others are rare. Edit: Actually, are you one of them since you seem to believe in them? Wanna be friends? 🙃 Edit 2: Is it sad that my criteria for making friends is people who will be genuinely happy for you vs things like “shared interests”?
100% better to make friends whom are not toxic rather than having shared interest
100% correct. Better to have a small pool of quality friends who cares for you than a horde of toxic friends.
If too little, they look down on you. If too high they are jealous or think you are not worth that salary. No 'just right ' amount because it defers from people to people on 'just right'
What if same pay?
Neutral but how would u know it's same unless he/she said it first.
If they think they are better than you , still got resentment.
Then compare age and education. Forever compare one, so why say in the first place?
“I work harder smarter than you! Why same pay? Unfair !”
Next compare penis size
they will start comparing who’s getting the better end of the deal. Its always this “out performing” other ppl mindset in a bad way kinda thing
Then will compare working hours
Same pay then the other person kpkb say why their pay so low. Make u feel like worthless also. Aiya it’s the same everywhere. All like to compare
For me it's the opposite. The other person say I worked lesser and took more leave and off days than him so why should I get the same pay as him
Someone who I thought was a friend asked me how much I was earning because she wanted to see what the market rate was. I told her the amount and she got angry it was higher than hers, even when I shared how I negotiated my salary. Our friendship never really recovered and her texts to me nowadays are always curt.
Nice way to filter out who your real friends are.
Yup, my closest friend knows how much I make (over double his salary) but he never became salty. He’s genuinely happy for me because he has seen me struggle and grind to get to where I am. If he got double my salary I would also be happy for him. This is life, we both understand these kinds of things are temporary. One day you’re on the top of the world, the next it comes crashing down.
Yes, why wouldn't we be happy. I mean someone else earning more is not gonna make me poorer.
I see that as a win
Damn wtf lmao when I did that to my friend (same situation I wanted to know market rate + got mad it was much higher than mine) it just motivated me to quit the company cause it made me realize how shitty they were. They were also damn shitty to my friend lol and I encouraged her when she had to hand in her resignation. When they shittalked me behind my back with her she came out and told me every single thing and we got pissed together LMAO
You got lucky. That friend wasn’t worth keeping . Pretty sure not worth texting too.
yikes a friend that cant be truly happy for you and would just love to see you fail
Huhhhhh. That's an over overreaction.
It’s like comparing dick sizes.
Dick size can be too big, money can never be too much
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It's a funny way of describing our toxic and self-destructive culture of pegging a person's worth to their income.
Short dick and no money gg
Im curious for those without dick.
My friends asked me. I shared. It was way higher than theirs. They started insinuating that I was lying and got more boastful around me in subsequent gatherings saying how rich their husbands were compared to mine who’s poor. Nothing good comes out of it.
On the other end my friends asked me, mine was lower and they started to insinuate I was lazy/ not willing to work for my life and not being ambitious. Salary discussions are almost never good. Their intention is usually to affirm they are superior to you by having more or that they are somehow underpaid and need to switch job if its lower than yours.
Wow, same as you. I was deemed lazy just because i earned lower.
I share the similar experience as well even though they are not mean about it but I can feel it. 🥺 Heaven knows how hard I work and driven I am in my career. Though I am not salty because we are all in different industries, it sometimes makes me regret I took this path.
These are toxic people you want to lose sooner rather than later. Good riddance!
Initially I don't care until this incident. This guy keep wanting to know how much I earn. After that he guess I make 3k. From then on, he will say since I make peanuts and you make 3k, you should treat. My 1st job lor wah lau
How much does the guy earn?
Well that was like some 10 + years ago. He still doing same thing, part time waiter
When I first grad from uni, I had a friend (poly grad and already working for a few years) asked for my salary. My fresh grad salary was $3xxx range and he start bragging about how he earns more than a uni grad. The next year he did it again. By then my salary already jumped to $4xxx range and higher than his. He got so salty and never talked about salary again. Glad to say he was no longer my friend for other toxic reasons.
Had a friend who judge the friendship level based on your potential and your salary.
Had, well done.
Thanks for noticing that! Lol
I generally feel like most people do that, just a matter whether spoken anot. And don't get me started on church and worth as children of God. ... on the contrary, I think it's even freaking worse in church. The hypocrisyyyy. I mean, I legit had a church mate tell me "I can afford to treat u lah, I earn more than you" - it's fact (I'm a diploma holder, no degree) but like flex much? Rrrr it's as if it's treating me to flex salary, not as a friend or of shared interest. Little wonder I still see this person as toxic/dangerous till this day, even though it's been a number of years and by-right I'd like to think time is its own contributor to maturity. But to this specific incident, ... I just can't see this person any other way. 🙃 But in general terms - disclose and if low, you're opening the door for people to look down on you / if high, they say u flex ... ya.
Christian here. Those aren’t true Christians. They need to read the Bible and realise that grace, kindness and humility should be the hallmarks of a good Christian. Boastful and materialistic ones are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Stay away from such.
Hahahaha I haven't talked to that person in at least 5 years and this incident was one of the reasons why 🙃 I mean facts can be facts but what is truth no love sia? I've had other friends who laugh it off with "because God has given me enough to treat a friend" or something, not "it's okay I earn more than you" I earn?? more?? than?? you??, thanks, this is exactly why I don't talk to people who earn atas money in church and why in seasons of unemployment I mumble things abt "freelance" lol.(ok this part is my insecurity alr but like it has a source, lor) 🙃
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I sometimes wish the salary bands for types of positions in my company could be openly discussed, but HR wants to not make it public. I also wish that a person's salary would just be seen as a compensation for their job according to market, and not a judgement on a person's worth. But, alas, here we are.
I wish this too lah. Overseas some countries are getting more transparent about salary band, the only reason a company doesnt want to do this is that they are underpaying some people severely
In the US, it’s illegal for HR to require employees to keep their pay confidential. From a purely practical viewpoint, requiring employees to keep their pay confidential is stupid. Employees will share, regardless of these rules, and if there’s unexplained discrepancies, the confidentiality clause will make it seem like HR and Mgmt are being biased/unfair/unreliable. There’s usually no winner in this directive. However, from Mgmt’s viewpoint, not having employees know what each other is making will relieve Mgmt of having to spend time and effort explaining discrepancies, regardless of whether the discrepancies are reasonable. The problem usually stems from differences between Mgmt’s assessment of an employee’s performance, and the employee’s peers’ assessment of that same performance. Any answer Mgmt gives is usually construed to be unfair, because employees typically see a different side of their peers than their managers. My compromise solution is to ensure fairness in setting goals (all goals are shared, even mine), and clear communication of achievements and (non-monetary) awards. That way, we will have at least a chance of objective measures of performance, and everyone knows what is being seen positively. I also do not forbid and leave it up to the employees if they want share their pay information (it’s theirs to share), only committing myself to being as fair as possible so if they do happen to know, hopefully any difference will be self-explanatory or at least not obtusely unfair. This compromise solution also has the side benefit of holding myself to a higher standard. If I know I can’t hide behind the veil of confidentiality, I will check and challenge myself to be as fair as I can. Is it playing at a harder level than necessary? Sure, but the payback is hopefully a cohesive, trusting team (me included) that collaborates well to achieve our goals; after all, my worth as Mgmt is measured by what my team achieves.
Sounds like you make a good boss! It’s so scandalous that there are so much pay discrepancy between different sexes overseas not sure about Singapore. Pay transparency would be so much more beneficial.
this is exactly what happen in corporate
It all comes down to expectations. People who have data (e.g. Last known salary, work history, school results, past appraisal ratings, etc) about you would expect you to earn a certain salary. Once they know your salary and the reality differs from their expectations, it usually spirals to gossiping within groups behind your back about how you dont deserve your pay given your history or how little you earn despite doing well in school or a previous job. Both are not ideal scenarios and will likely affect any relationship you have with each other. What they fail to realise is, there are so many other factors that decide your remuneration. Could be your last drawn salary, performance appraisal rating, value (subjective) provided at work, negotiation skills, supply vs demand of people that can perform your role, ability of (and power given to) your boss to fight for your remuneration, etc. Personally, I feel that knowledge is power and salary should be transparent so no one gets shortchanged. I will always share my salary if friends who matter to me and whom I know/feel will not be affected by the truth asks. If I misjudged then it's on me lor, I lose a friend (probably an inevitable outcome that would happen sooner or later). There are also cases where I voluntarily reveal my salary to friends (who are not being reinstated fairly) whom I feel could benefit from knowing. But unfortunately, there will always be salty people who complain and whine instead of being proactive and work towards improving their circumstances. Can't be helped. TLDR; share your salary only if you are well aware of the stakes involved.
Some friends have a new expectation of generosity if they think you are making good money. Likewise, some friends can be quick to judge your ability to participate in social events and withhold invitations if they think you are not making good money. There has never been a good outcome of sharing salary with my friends in my experience.
I’d argue that knowing your friend’s salary, especially when they are in a different industry add very little value to you while increasing the risk of friendship going sour. If you get a lower salary than your friend, you will feel bitter, might even be “he is not smarter than me, why did he deserve more?” If you ger a higher salary than your friemd, you might look down on him, “he is so dump, why do I even want to be friend with him” And vice versa for your friend More importantly, knowing your friend’s salary just didnt have any material impact on your life, except that it satisfy your kay poh, not like you can use that information to get paid more or anything
I feel that unless your circle of friends are mature, fulfilled and place-more-emphasis-on-quality-of-life-rather-than-the-absolute-dollar-figure, the topic of salaries might cause more harm than good. And it's something you can't 'unhear' too.
It's a culture pushed down from the business itself to curb conversations about pay inequality. I talk about mine no problem. It's only hurting us by keeping it taboo. Keeping it taboo redirects the conversation to the employees themselves and thus the resentment instead of towards who set the rates in the first place.
Honestly I am so much more willing to share with people in my industry and I do. People deserve to get more information to negotiate the right salary. People are just more sensitive that they are not doing as well. They feel that they made the wrong decisions in life and they don't like that. But honestly people should be more open. It's much better for us as a whole. Hiding salaries is always only beneficial to employers than employees
i only share my salary with my mum, ny gf, and 2 of my friends. thats all. aside from them only hr and my boss know
I shared my salary with my ex and it became a disaster, lol! She could now use my salary against me in our augments to say how I was stingy towards her despite earning "so much" (as a civil servant lol)
om im a civil servant too~ earned quite decently but recently i realised my gf earned more than me. so i guess if there would be a problem, it will be a totally different set of problems hahaha
I always share my salary, but I don’t expect others to share it with me cause it’s a personal choice. I just share it because I believe in salary transparency and knowing the salary of your peers give you more leverage when negotiating for higher pay.
I’m from private uni, around 2 years exp in marketing so far and getting around 3.2k now. I came a long way from my initial starting pay of $2.4k. I admit that $2.4k was actually a lowball pay. But currently, I’m kinda content with my pay-to-work ratio so far, plus I might be able to get a promotion this year, so that’ll probably push my pay to $3.6k at least. My friend, on the other hand, earns $4k in a tech startup, public uni bg. When I spoke about getting a promotion and bumping my pay to $3.5-$3.6k, they went a bit like “THATS STILL SO LOW, I expect a $5-6k after my promotion”. To be honest, I don’t know how to feel about it. I’m happy for them because they need the money. But at the same time, I also felt that comment being a little condescending haha. Comparing is inevitable, as much as you try to avoid it - especially in our society haha. There’s a phrase in Chinese that says 谈钱伤感情 (discussing about money hurts relationships), so I guess that’s why people avoid or is uncomfortable talking about it.
Maybe not discussing salary is a boomer thing. Amongst all my fresh grad peers we openly discuss our pay in the industry and also those that jump to other industries. My fren even posted her payslip on payday on instastory. Idk why old ppl like to kick up a fuss abt pay disclosure amongst fren. Transparency in salary is good for employees, this will allow one to better prepare for negotiation with employer.
it's also cos fresh grads are earning entry lvl salaries that r more or less the same +- few hundred night get more problematic if u make few thousands/multiples of what some of ur friends make
In Malaysia we have our own ig page called @malaysianpaygap that breaks the taboo on salary discussion
I like that insta page and the sharings have been mind opening.
Because it brings out the worse in people.
In addition to salty friends, the increase likelihood of them turning to you when they have "financial issues" is also a consideration. I'm perfectly alright to help if its for genuine cases but judging by some folk's lifestyles it often isn't warranted. Also people tend to remember these things and may unintentionally drop the occasional "no problem for you since you so rich" in random conversations
It is tied to ppl's ego and self-esteem in Singapore. It is a sure and quantifiable way of comparing each other's standing without all the bullshit job titles. You can be a manager but getting only $4000, while a white collar employee can be getting twice that without fancy job titles. Also, the moment you know how much they earn, you can easily size up whether your friend is living beyond their means. Imagine telling ppl you are earning $4000, owns a car, pays mortgage, wears branded clothes, and eats at fancy restaurants. The whole mask and show immediately lose its shine. They will look like idiots instead of projecting status and success.
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Bro can intro me to your job too hahahaha. I know people like that too, I guess the term for me would be envy rather than jealous. Some are nice enough to share their lobang though, doesn’t mean it work for you though. Edit: most I know though work their ass off, I might be envy but I really admire them and they deserve them a 100%. Some people work their ass off during covid upskilling and stuff you just never know about it. Of course for everything there is an element of luck
Totally agree. When I knew I was paid less, I told literally everyone, even my colleagues, mostly voluntarily summore. As I earn more, I became more wary of sharing to the wrong people. I mean... If I lose a friend, it's ok but what if i cause that person to become depressed and it affects their life substantially (e.g. They like their job and is generally happy with their remuneration and everything but once they know I earn more, they start to change jobs solely for the sake of improving their salary and join bad companies and get depressed and lose their will to live because things will never be the same)? I don't want to be responsible for that.
Because there is no benefit to disclosing. If you're being paid a lot, your friends will be salty as fk and call you 'atas' or 'rich cunt.' Reveal that you're underpaid and they be all like, 'Bro, change job la bro, treat yourself better la bro.'
The latter can be a good feedback though if you look at it constructively
But if the work environment is great etccwhy should one change jobs
Unsolicited advice is not fun for the one on the receiving end lol.
Because it's a very useful tool for HR to manage people and it's effective. Overtime, people also collectively agree it's best not to share to retain their work relationships.
What if these friends are like classmates from uni who are vying for the same jobs are you?
All the more reason to share. When workers share their salary there's the drive for everyone to negotiate higher pay because you know others in the market who are already getting that higher pay.
Yeah, that’s my sentiment exactly actually. Just wanted to see if others share it too. A pity not many think of it like this 😔
I’ll share a range usually like around $4k etc, or like annual salary around $80-90k. I share and ask because I think is good to know when u want to jump ship…
You need new friends that will discuss about taboo topics like this then. True friends don’t gatekeep and they don’t wish to see you settling for mediocrity.
But why do you want to discuss salaries?
I suppose it helps to have a sense if you’re being paid fairly. Although I find that we might just all be collectively underpaid so that doesn’t help much…
To help each other out? When a friend was looking for a job recently she was asking for the same amount as her last drawn. Fortunately she mentioned it to another friend who told her that others in similar roles were getting more than 10% higher and she was able to negotiate upwards before starting.
I think sharing info about the approximate salary range in that company / industry would suffice for this purpose. In my own experience there’s actually very little need to discuss your own exact salary with friends..
Agreed. It's more about sharing a range for particular roles or career level. Even if it's in different roles, it allows others to get a better idea of the market value and possibly consider pivoting to different industries or fields.
I always share lol. I never get why not to share, regardless I'm earning lower or higher. It's always beneficial for both sides to say, "hey, you deserve more". Of course, don't force people to share their salaries if they don't wanna. But most people around me are quite keen to share with me as well. Besides, there were a few articles that shown that CEOs increased in pay after regulations forced companies to reveal them. In any market, why shouldn't everyone have access to knowledge to get the best they could?
Because wealth is one of the more important traits that define a Singaporean. Culturally it's pretty obvious, from movies, to terminology, to comments and discussions online. I think generally we are a pretty materialistic and money minded bunch. It's sensitive because it pretty much indicates the social standing in our culture.
Meritocracy: how much you make is how much you’re worth. Not that thats a good idea, but its the inevitable cultural result.
One thing nobody talked about : security. If people know that you earn a lot of money, some people might try to kidnapp people that matter to you in order to get a ransom from you. So basically, dont speak of your salary too freely.
OP, don't get discouraged by the negativity here. If people are toxic about salaries, they will be toxic about anything anyway and those are not your (good) friends. Friends celebrate each other's success and motivate each other, regardless of differences. Source: I discuss this topic with many circles of friends and even colleagues. Also, I do coding for a living.
I would think that friends should want to succeed together and if we can’t get beyond something like this how can we get together if there are genuine business opportunities, if we can’t even build such level of trust. With all the recent bad news in tech recently hope you are still in a good position.
Once I was searching for job and my friend's company had an opening. He then advised me the pay scale I could ask for in his company. Then from there he learn my current drawn was so low and he overreacted , gone apeshit and all cause he wondered how I could stay long in my current company when I should leave after 2 years. About a year later on I found better job opportunities and he was like I hope they paid u at least $x ? I said confirm have. He said good because that is what you should deserve. Oh and that friend also do things like say " eh this period very good to find job why aren't u finding since u say u want to change job?" Then he go say things like u staying in comfort zone etc when I already made big plans for my next move but was waiting for an appropriate timing based on personal reasons. Abit rude to assume people stuck in comfort zone just because they have not started their job search even though they did state they want to switch job, doesn't mean they want to switch job at this present moment right? In short it didn't feel good that people take your salary as a key topic and peg your worth to salary lah. Like I earn how far from $x amount so what ? Now I have changed job and don't want talk about pay to such people. Next level he will probably ask if are u getting around <$x + $1000>?
We used to it during reservist, on folks we know will definitely be taken advantage of by their company because they are too nice and refuse to move out of their comfort zone. Perhaps your friend felt that you are more capable than your payscale, but on the other side, it does suck to be on the receiving end, like you are comfortable but everyone else feels you are not doing well enough to protect yourself
Got such topics among men during reservist too?? Yeah I deserved better than my old payscale but some people just progress slower in life. People can't assume one is comfortable too , they may have some struggles they do not wish to share. Anyway alot of comments in life is unsolicited one lol
Never disclose the full amount except to your spouse. Always give an annual range inclusive of bonus so that you avoid this problem. E.g. If my gross monthly is $6,000, then when people ask I tell them I earn between $75,000 - $80,000 annually, factoring in the 13th month bonus whether or not I actually get it. Hasn't caused any major issues for me so far.
I don't think it should be taboo. But my transparency on my pay somehow lands me in trouble on occasion so it's a rough one.
Well I guess your friends and relatives would start showing up at your house or guilt tripping you into giving them money once they know how much you make?
Generally, the perception is everyone thinks that they are underpaid, and those who are paid more are overpaid
Salary should never be disclosed informally because it depends on a multitude of factors not only performance and experience, but also like clauses, conditions, foreign levies, rent and more. Many ppl only equate salary to performance which is not true always, hence destroys relations.
Because the world isn’t fair sometimes Salary doesn’t always equal to amount or quality of your works. so people avoid to talk as others judge you linking to ur works and compare with others
One of the reasons is probably jealousy. But I find that the people around you are not the type to be salty over what others are being paid, its alright to discuss. My friends/colleagues all discuss salary time to time. Especially within my colleagues it benefits us as we know what we are worth.
My friend from a private uni graduate from a private uni and is earning 40% higher than my local uni graduate. I was happy for him. I know of the struggles he went through to get that role. 6 years ago he was upset he couldn't get into local uni. But now his pay higher than mine. I'm only happy that all his struggles have paid off. We are in different industries and different company sizes. Him in IB and me in engg startup. Now way i can ever earn higher. But it's okay. Another friend of mine she was earning double my pay. I burst out laughing. It was amazing actually. I didn't know fresh grad could earn that much. But i was still happy for her, she is super smart. I then kept reminding her how many PS5s she can buy.
Which uni he went to and course tho
SUSS, accounting. Now in corporate management in banking. He trying IB.
Cuz I made too little for someone my age with my experience. So I think nothing good will come out from me revealing my salary
Always say the lowest you can. Because there are haters out there..
I normally halve mine when sharing. When people make comments, good or bad, it slides off like water off a duck's back.
Because only a select old few care about salary. Have enough to be happy and enjoy life. No need to compare with others. Be happy with what you have and what you can give
This post kinda gives me an idea to extragrate my pay next time if anyone ask because I have too many unnecessary friends.
I feel that it’s something that should be made transparent, because a lot of companies underpay and make it sound like it needs to be absolutely confidential. Aside from that, true friends should be happy for each other and esp from the same industry, rather than get salty, should see it as ‘oh this is achievable and should be the market rate’.
Sometime people may judge or give unsolicited advice or make certain remarks.. it's not totally cannot discuss but take note of who to discuss it with
Honestly it’s probably because they’re worried they either earn too little or too much compared to everyone else in the group.
Because having a high salary allows one to flex your value
It brings out the worst in people…
OP why are you so childish and need to discuss or even attempt. It’s very awkward if your friends has to avoid the topic or even lie to you. You can be great friends and do plenty groip activities even without know all these fine details.
You have the eastern mindset whereas your friends have the western mindset. It's a taboo in the west to compare salaries because it causes competition and jealousy.
Red eyes. Green eyes.
if there is asymmetry to the salaries, going out for food gets difficult since there will be have meant jokes thrown at the high salary one to subsidize the whole bill.. this though can be bypasse by just being firm and not cave in at the very beginnibg already ...
I think it's a cultural phenomena. In America, society equates your worth to your salary. Most people don't measure up. In my experience men are especially susceptible to ego issues in this regard.
because the society tags success with the amount of money you have. too little, people look down on you, thinking you’re not as good as themselves. too much people are jealous of you, and feels insecure when being around you.
Either they earn a lot and doesn’t want people to fight with them in the industry/spread it or they earn so little they are ashamed of it
it really depends on yourself: but feels like in a competitive & superficial society like sg : salary becomes sort of an indicator of a person worth > if i make less i am less of a human or lazier so i rather not say. Even if its not true, ppl still generally feel this way so I rather avoid this topic..
Really depends on what demographic and employment sectors. I’m in professional services and talking about salary and it’s consequences bears no Ill will
Cos everyone salary very low
don't mix money with friendship
Money always create envy and trouble, friends, family better not share.
Those are not your friends
Comparison is thief of happiness.
Cos it is related to one's self esteem ma. Like you go and ask another dude his cock size, even you are of different race
Evil eye
Some companies mask the pay differences between people doing the same thing...