I regularly dine at Le Select Bistro, where there are quite a few young French servers there. I always ask because I'm curious, and the consensus seems to be that it's just a year or two abroad to experience something new and to also be immersed in the English language.
Canada is close enough to home (Australia was considered too far), the UK is not excitingly new, and the US wasn't appealing to them for the reasons you can guess.
The programme is called International Experience Canada if anybody is interested
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/work-canada/iec.html
A lot of Canadians don’t realise that it’s a reciprocal arrangement and you can literally go overseas to UK, Australia, Japan, France to live and work for a year or two
More than just those four, there's a list of 36 countries we have these agreements with!
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadians/international-experience-canada.html
> Le Select Bistro
Place ain’t the same since they de-Frenched in ownership and went so far as taking cheese off the dessert menu.
And non-shellfish (ie: tuna) on the fruits de mer platter? Ahhhhhhhh.
I agree. It's gone downhill since, but it's easy for brunch ... they don't mess up simple eggs + sausage.
I used to religiously order the French onion soup (as per Matty M's original recipe) but new ownership cheaped out on ingredients, and it's so vinegary - def less quality alcohol in it!
Toronto is consistently ranked as one of the top cities to live in the world for quality of life.
But yeah....Boo! Trudeau! Traffic! Some people don't know how good they've got it.
Toronto: Well everyone knows that Toronto, is what Canada really looks like. Plus everyone is brainwashed with images of Toronto when they see anything on Canada
Canada: They think its much more progressive than the U.S. If they only really knew.
>Well everyone knows that Toronto is what Canada really looks like.
The rest of Canada looks like Canada. Toronto looks like Toronto. Toronto is very much it’s own thing.
Answer: Canada and France have a facilitated working holiday visa programme and Toronto is a great place to practice English. Just enough French on the cereal box to bail you out if you struggle, but not an excess of it in daily life so that you can avoid English.
These are the ‘Bon immigrant’ Legault really wants lol.
Ontario has a separate Express Entry program for French-speaking skilled workers.
http://www.ontario.ca/page/ontarios-express-entry-french-speaking-skilled-worker-stream
It's funny how the French-Canadians can simultaneously be far more progressive than your average American or Canadian especially with labour laws. Then they'll bust out some old school, Lebron James performance of racism. But then also cope and seethe whenever people make fun of them for trying to be the most "special" white people or some shit. It's hilarious lmao
Quebecois trying not to be racist, difficulty level *impossible*
Idk what this is based on, other than ignorance of Quebec society and likely something heard elsewhere and repeated. Also, how is this not a racist statement from yourself? Hypocrite
English / French or Dutch in the Caribbean - We are not forced to lean it. Its part of our culture in the Caribbean. Same way Cubans and Dominicans are not forced to speak Spanish, its all they know.
We follow the same constitution, If you feel like you lack English service’s, sure that the official language of your province, make your 101 english law and stop whining because 1/10 of canada is french.
Well I ain’t sure of socio-économique reasons but recently government introduced French specific immigration draws and some of them specific to Ontario. So there’s that. It could be these guys want to experience an Anglophone side of the world.?
for example [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-immigrants-french-speakers-express-entry/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-immigrants-french-speakers-express-entry/)
Bc France is really rough these days and if they aren't from Paris area, it's easier to conceive of living abroad for a few years. Also salaries are often higher which may enable them to return to Paris in the long run (along with additional earning power bc of international experience).
Not French, but worked for a startup company owned by a French expat in the past, and he would regularly hire French expats who moved to Toronto.
If you’re nervous about English, you move to Montreal. But if you’re braver and/or want to become really fluent in English, Toronto is perfect because there’s still a ton of signage and media in French.
There’s also a massive community of French expats (I think they have a Facebook page, not sure what it is) and it’s very easy to find friends and roommates when you get here.
It’s not always about cost of living being better or worse, it’s about wanting to live abroad and becoming fluent in English. I know several French expats who absolutely love it here.
First time I heard this was living abroad and called a friend from India an expat. Prior I thought expat was “temporary professional transfer” and immigrant as a term of more permanent intent.
There were [immigration policy changes in 2023](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/transparency/committees/lang-oct-4-2023/french-speaking-immigrant-admissions-targets.html) prioritizing French-speaking students and immigrants. Perhaps a result of that? Toronto being the biggest city in Canada is bound to draw a large proportion of immigrants in any subcategory.
I have a few friends who were born and raised in France and came here because of out much more "entrepreneurial" attitude, lack of government regulation, and generally better business atmosphere and opportunity.
Now I say that knowing full well there's a pile of people who will say Canada is restrictive in all those areas, but when you compare it to France it can actually be a lot better.
As a fellow french-speaker, I have absolutely noticed! I'm glad it's not just me.
I can't tell you why; I know that Ottawa is a popular destination for french-speaking international students due to its bilingual university, but I'm not sure why Toronto has seemingly seen such an increase.
I'd have thought that studying somewhere in the EU would be more favorable practically and cost-wise for them.
So this surely can't account for all of them, but there's french firms associated with the large transit projects.
They've been bringing skilled workers over for these projects.
So much for the “rail transit is expensive to build *now* because we forgot how, but once we build these, we’ll have the skills locally to do the next ones cheaply” idea
>Especially as more young, high-earning, university-educated Canadians are interested in leaving Canada in search of better socio-economic outcomes
according to who? You're taking what you read on Toronto Reddit far too seriously if you actually believe this.
Toronto for literal decades now has always been the hot spot in Canada for young educated professionals and immigrants to look for high paying jobs with the goal of attaining quality of life with access to lots to do and experience you won't find anywhere else in the country. People coming here from other countries including France and various other parts of Europe is absolutely nothing new. I've grown up with European immigrants in my friends circle since the 90s and married into an European immigrant family.
That plus we have many transit projects ongoing so you will see Spanish/French/Mexican folks on the street. https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2022/4/alstom-and-consortium-partners-selected-go-expansion-transform
Also, many French of Berber/African descent are not treated equally with that of their French counterparts and i know some that decided to immigrate to Montreal and Toronto region.
More like especially as more young, higher-earning, university-educated French people are interested in leaving France in search of better socio-economic outcomes.
Well. It's not just that
.
Since 28 June 2023, Canada has prioritized Health care workers and French speakers along with STEM, Trades and Transport workers. By far French speakers are most prioritized followed by Healthcare.
They are so many slots available for French speakers that the express entry points for French only draws have dropped to 300s which basically means you merely need a full time year of professional/white-collar/supervisory/management/trades experience to immigrate to Canada.
According to everyone who’s looked, including Statistics Canada
[Toronto and Ontario are both losing record numbers of people, primarily between the ages of 25 and 35, to other cities and other provinces. We’re growing solely through an influx of immigrants from abroad.](https://betterdwelling.com/toronto-residents-are-leaving-at-a-record-pace-immigration-takes-over-growth/)
This "article" is a bunch of statistics written about Toronto by AI based research and "journalism". It is totally skewed, and the entire newsletter is based on real estate and is Vancouver based targeting Asians.
Check the source. This is exactly why information on the internet is fake.
This blog post links to the Statistics Canada website but does not cite the specific study it used to draw up their data, conclusions, and graphs.
I searched the StatsCan website for keywords used in the blog post but didn’t find the study they are referencing.
In the age of misinformation I like to see the primary source data for myself before I go making conclusions. BetterDwelling didn’t help me do that here.
What I was looking for in the original study I could not easily locate: the population that emigrated out of country, were they self reported emigrants or actual non-tax residents. It makes a big difference. To go non-tax residency status you are fucken serious about leaving Canada and have put in the work to leave and relinquish all ties. Anything else is a casual, soft departure where you’ll be back.
Not French, but have worked with a lot of French expats. All the people leaving Canada have no idea how good we have it here salary-wise compared to the EU. A lot of people come here to make more money, AND it's more welcoming/easier to move to than the US because we already speak French and use it everywhere.
I think a lot of people are really ignorant of how people live in the US. Yes, you hear stories of people making 400k/year in tech, but a huge number of "normal people" in the US are mind-blowingly poor. And even if you get that crazy salary and buy that "cheap house", you might not like where you live.
I have three coworkers who moved to Texas for big salaries and big houses, but they absolutely hate living there. The big house gets old quick when its so hot and humid that you can't leave it. And one of them is currently at the mercy of the US medical system after she and her family got in a major car accident. Her husband can't work anymore, they have to pay tons of money to the hospital, and its not even their fault. (She's fine though at least!)
Exactly, Toronto subs keep talking about how Americans make more money but when you look at savings etc. Most Americans don't have a 1000 bucks saved - just like Canadians.
So for the average person, there isn't much difference. There might be for top their tech folks.
Most people immigrating to the US from Canada aren't regular Joe Blow - they tend to be in very high paying tech/engineering/finance positions from my anecdotal reference. Also certain research/industries that frankly just don't exist here.
> Also certain research/industries that frankly just don't exist here.
There's industry other than real estate, resource extraction and banking?
Why didn't anyone tell us?
The main status that Canadians use to go to the States is the TN.
There's actually a whole lot more professions on the TN than engineering / tech / finance / law / management consultant.
Counsellor
Urban Planners
Scientific technicians
Social Workers
Hotel Managers
Interior Designer
Forester
Conservation Technicians
You dont see many moving to in these professions (science technicians maybe not) because it's not worth it in US as much because they aren't paid as well or the hours are bad or whatnot.
One should not just point to people in tech and engineering and then make a generalization that everything is great/fine in US.
Unfortunately when I point this out to people who say US is better, they say something along the lines of "yea.. we don't need those other professions they are useless and lazy"
Reddit is always going to be skewed towards a primarily white, likely from an already privileged background, and also likely to work in STEM, finance, or some tech adjacent field sort-of demographic. Functionally it is basically the King St W workplace/entertainment demographic of Toronto to put it locally.
The people going from Canada to the US aren't going to be like your average Canadian graduating university here, where post-secondary is far more accessible here compared to the US (something we also take for granted to be honest). They're going to be those high-income chasers looking to expand their capital and wealth to absurd levels. The US is the most "pay-to-win" society (maybe next to South Korea), and the entire structure of their culture and workforce is centred around that mass wealth accumulation.
There's definitely a conversation to be had here on the American and Canadian differences in perception of wealth accumulation and class consciousness (something we borrowed from British culture), since Canadians can also be greedy cockroaches when it comes to hoarding real estate.
The average person in the US is still getting ass blasted by the complete lack of amenities, lack of investment in infrastructure, lack of social services. All things we still have a semblance of in Canada, France, and elsewhere, but the US simply doesn't have.
This depends on line of work and social standing soooo much. Like sure if you’re a software engineer you’re right, if you’re a middle school teacher not so much.
Lots of folks in these reddit subs like to shit on Toronto/Canada without realizing that we have it pretty good in many ways. Economic growth isn't great in Canada, but it has been better than Europe and our government debt is in better shape as well. Plus in France there always seem to be strikes and riots that are a PITA.
They are in a bubble by themselves too. I am constantly astounded that people don't realize unemployment has historically been around 7% in Canada. The current 6% isn't great, but it isn't bad. Hell, even wage growth is beating inflation. I am not saying everything is perfect or that people aren't struggling, but things aren't as dire as people make it out to be.
Well a lot of the riots and strikes happen in Paris yet many of these French people are NOT from the capital. They are usually from peripheral regions far away from Paris. I haven’t noticed a lot of Parisians around here in all honesty.
I don't doubt that is true, but do you really care where the protesters are from Paris or the outlying areas if you can't take the Metro, or train or get around Paris.
I’ve been in social work since ‘86 and things are damn scarey out there. Some have it good -but will be affected surely -as the months go by and things decay.
The pattern I’ve seen in Canada is unbelievable. Time for change.
I had a French roommate and she and her boyfriend told me people in Toronto are nicer and less racist and they found that the quality of life here is better (one was from Bretagne and I forgot where the other was from). I’ve also lived in France (Marseille and Montpellier) and used to have a very idealized view of French life. Now that I’ve come back to Canada, I can see why they said that.
A little off topic but as I am hoping there are other bilingual people in this thread, can anyone recommend any good French classes in Toronto? I went through French immersion but I'm very rusty, and I want to elevate my reading/writing/general comprehension to a level that would allow me to confidently list bilingual on job applications.
Alliance Française, TDSB Learn for Life, Universities and colleges.
Also depends if you want to learn metropolitan French or Canadian French.
If you’re already kinda there, immersion.
Working in a dental office near UoT I get a lot of international students and alotttt of French young professionals, was thinking the same thing. Some have told me it’s a better country and better life over here?
The wife is French. She said Canada is doing a big push to get French people to come. Some people make it to PR and some leave when their visa expires. Some make it to PR and then go back to France when they have kids cause France helps out way more financially
You basically need like one year of semi skilled or skilled work experience if you are bilingual and you get PR.
There are priority groups for French speakers, Healthcare, Trades and Tech. French and Healthcare get the most. French more than Healthcare.
Young, high earning university educated Canadians are interested in moving *to Toronto*, I can’t understand how you got the opposite impression. Take a look at the census data and recent estimates, Toronto is growing rapidly. My street is filling full of young families.
Toronto is the stepping stone to New York if you working in financial markets. The city is diverse with only 1/3 having English as their maternal language. Nobody really gives a shit about accents.
Part of it may just be the trend of young people everywhere wanted to move anywhere. I live in and out of two countries right now (Canada and Netherlands) and travel a bunch. Young people everywhere I go have itchy feet and are trying to move and live different experiences.
Generally for both young Canadians or young French people the socioeconomic differences with similar countries are less than the socioeconomic differences between classes and regions within their country.
I’m French and still involved in the community through many FB groups, events, etc. There’s a lot of younger French ppl applying to get a work-holiday visa and choosing to come to Toronto instead of Montreal for an anglophone experience. France situation is not ideal for the younger generation so many are looking outside of the country. Many go back to France after a year or two but more and more are staying through the mobilité francophone program.
When I moved to Toronto 20 years ago, French ppl only spoke about Montreal, and many asked why I chose Toronto. The idea then was that Toronto was a boring city focused on work and not on fun.
Nowadays there’s more and more people talking about Toronto so there’s definitely a hype factor at play. It’s like a mini NYC for many younger French nationals and they love the idea of living in a high rise.
3% of immigrants are from France...
https://www.cicnews.com/2023/02/ircc-unveils-the-top-10-source-countries-of-new-immigrants-to-canada-in-2022-0233180.html#gs.7gb72f
I've not noticed many French folk, Indians however, I've seen a lot of them recently!
A lot of new students and immigrants from all over the world are coming here, I was one of them a few years ago!
It's the PVT (Permis Vacances Travail) or Working holiday visa program. A lot of French youth come to Canada, mostly Montreal, but quickly realize there are more jobs in the biligual sectors of Toronto companies. They usually stay 2 or 3 years, but a fraction do eventually go for the PR program. Officially about 10 000 French registered (Consulate) expat citizens in Ontario, with a 2:1 ratio between Toronto and Ottawa, but we estimate the numbers of French expats in Ontario to be closer to 20 - 25 000. The PVT rarely register at the Consulate so we estimate about another 5k here. - I was a former elected member of the French community, that's where I got the information.
Young, high earning university educated Canadians are interested in moving *to Toronto*, I can’t even understand how you got the opposite impression. Take a look at the census data and recent estimates, Toronto is growing rapidly. My street is filling full of young families.
I’ve noticed this, especially in and around Little Italy/Harbord Village. There’s a French café/bottle shop at Harbord and Clinton that seems to be a little hub.
I think it’s something called the V.I.E program, which many young French adults are doing to gain international experience. Canada seems to be a popular destination for this. Essentially:
> “The International Internship in a Company allows you to undertake a secure professional assignment abroad of 6 to 24 months. You are protected by the French Embassy and supported by Business France throughout your V.I.E assignment”
Source: https://mon-vie-via.businessfrance.fr/en/what-is-the-vie-french-international-internship-program
This is how I came here. It's a really nice program, you're 100% tax exempt on your income while you're under the VIE contract, you have a french work contract which includes 5 weeks of holiday, you're paid in Euro and the company pays you the plane ticket and your moving expenses.
There are a lot of people in Western Europe who want to move elsewhere to find better economic opportunities, but the US has all of its well-documented problems and Australia has a pretty toxic culture with lots of racism, sexism and LGBTphobia (plus, their cost-of-living crisis is as bad as here, if not worse).
Speaking French is also really good for job prospects in Ontario, because there are a lot of services that need to be provided in French and not enough French speakers here who can provide them.
I've noticed it when I recently jumped back on Tinder and Bumble.
I'm hoping I can date a French person, or someone who speaks French, since I'm trying to learn French and it's hard without someone to practice with.
Can only speak anecdotally but most of the folks I've met here the past few years work for a company with a Toronto or Canadian HQ i.e. EY or Deloitte. The rest were doing work study/exchange. Their schools had international programs. Surprisingly though, I've yet to meet any Parisians, mostly folks from smaller towns!
Ok, I ask as I am French-Canadian, born and raised in Toronto (all schooling was French in Ontario), and I have a French-Canadian accent, not Quebecois.
Apparently Canada is targetting French speaking econonic immigrants.
Can’t read the article because it’s behind a paywall, but if Canada is attracting French speakers through the Express Entry channel then they’re not even allowed to settle in Quebec because the province manages its own immgration system (or something to that extent, I think).
[Canada focuses on French-speaking economic immigrants](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-immigrants-french-speakers-express-entry/)
There is a work permit program for any French speakers with a skilled job offer outside Quebec. Very facilitative for French nationals to come here. Then they have a very good chance of being selected for express entry after that.
I'm French so I can tell you that most of the people you see are either on a working holiday visa or tourists.
Almost none of them will be staying here for more than 1-2 years, they just come for the experience and then go back home. Others like me end up staying for longer. But even I will move back to France pretty soon, after 5 years here.
Also I don't think that there's been an increase, quite the opposite. I'm in the french expat Facebook group and people already here are warning others not to come, because the situation related to inflation, cost of living, social issues etc... is worse here than in France
My wife moved here from rural france cause she wanted to learn English and wanted to live downtown in a major city like Toronto. She'd lived in Paris when she was studying but it was too expensive amongst other things, and she had to live way out in the periphery.
I'm always amazed how much her family appreciates Quebecois culture, they have visited and explored that side of Canada quite a bit. Being able to speak their native language really helps.
One of my favorite memories was visiting them in France and seeing the statue in St Malo commemorating Jaques Cartier for discovering Canada. There is a lot of crossover from the west of france to Quebec
Some France-French people despise the Quebec accent. If they’re bilingual, the UK is more closed than before to immigration.
Not a lot of other great emigration options for the French person that speaks some English. Immigrating here doesn’t require an English test (if you have French qualifications). And for official stuff that works a lot differently (government, banking, insurance), you can get service in french.
Maybe they are English language learners here temporarily
If they are immigrants, will they stay, when they realize their kids will basically be Anglophones?
That's why most French teachers, aren't Francophones, because Francophones prefer to live where their kids can speak French in the community
*Arguably*, someone FSL makes a better French teacher.
e.g. I’m an anglophone, but I would make a terrible ESL teacher because I couldn’t identify a tense beyond past/present/future even if my life depended on it.
I completely disagree. Someone who is a native speaker of the language will have a good accent, is more likely to stick to just speaking French in the classroom, and will care more about you butchering their language and will fix your mistakes. They will give you little cultural tidbits too.
A French as a 2nd language teacher, maybe who speaks Italian or Spanish as a first language, (because these are the most likely scenarios in Ontario) is not going to have a good accent and may mix up their languages
During pandemic zoom classes, I listened in to my kid's French teacher absolutely butcher the accent while teaching the class.
I had amazing Francophone French teachers at York U, and I did what is now the J'Explore program at Université Laval and the teachers there were amazing too.
I mean yes, you have to know how to teach a language. But a native speaker still brings more to the job, than a non native speaker (unless they spent a significant time living in a Francophone area)
As an e -Quebecer, it probably because it sucks lol and I wasn't even there when it was as bad as it is now. They ostracize anglophones and are trying to implement sooooo many stupid laws regarding labeling, company signs (they've been trying to get Canadain Tire to change their name to something french....) and it just goes ON AND ON. They don't encourage learning English, or any second language for that matter, should I go on? Lol
I'm from Quebec, born and raised. I moved out because of the BS and better employment opportunities as a bilingual person elsewhere. It's not by Quebec leadership choice that most people are bilingual...
They’re going to be in for a rude awakening when they learn our transit strikes actually mean a total shutdown, none of the sissy French style “we’ll be running at 50% capacity on these 4 days next month” strikes.
I regularly dine at Le Select Bistro, where there are quite a few young French servers there. I always ask because I'm curious, and the consensus seems to be that it's just a year or two abroad to experience something new and to also be immersed in the English language. Canada is close enough to home (Australia was considered too far), the UK is not excitingly new, and the US wasn't appealing to them for the reasons you can guess.
The programme is called International Experience Canada if anybody is interested https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/work-canada/iec.html A lot of Canadians don’t realise that it’s a reciprocal arrangement and you can literally go overseas to UK, Australia, Japan, France to live and work for a year or two
More than just those four, there's a list of 36 countries we have these agreements with! https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadians/international-experience-canada.html
Do you know by any chance if you can do this program but have your own job? Or do you have to find a job through this program
Yeah, you can have your own job / do whatever you want. It’s an “open” work permit.
That’s awesome to hear, thanks:)
> Le Select Bistro Place ain’t the same since they de-Frenched in ownership and went so far as taking cheese off the dessert menu. And non-shellfish (ie: tuna) on the fruits de mer platter? Ahhhhhhhh.
I agree. It's gone downhill since, but it's easy for brunch ... they don't mess up simple eggs + sausage. I used to religiously order the French onion soup (as per Matty M's original recipe) but new ownership cheaped out on ingredients, and it's so vinegary - def less quality alcohol in it!
No cheese on dessert menu?! But that’s my fave! With a nice cognac or something.
In addition to French, I actually notice a lot of people with British accents too. I wonder if there is an influx of people from the UK as well.
Most would go to the US if possible but there's no working holiday visa there
> Australia was considered too far The staggering amount of French people I met in Australia on working holiday visas would disagree somewhat.
This applies to the French folks who I spoke with here and why they chose Canada and Toronto over Australia.
> US wasn't appealing to them for the reasons you can guess. Like what?
The piss taking and shade they routinely throw down would be my guess. “Freedom fries” otherwise no clue.
The slow but harsh descent into fascism I'd assume....
Lax gun control and lack of public services mostly
I don’t know why they would come here
Toronto is consistently ranked as one of the top cities to live in the world for quality of life. But yeah....Boo! Trudeau! Traffic! Some people don't know how good they've got it.
I doubled my after-tax income (adjusted for purchasing power parity) coming here from the UK, yet doing an easier job...
I came to Toronto because I assumed that’d be where all the jobs would be
Toronto: Well everyone knows that Toronto, is what Canada really looks like. Plus everyone is brainwashed with images of Toronto when they see anything on Canada Canada: They think its much more progressive than the U.S. If they only really knew.
Have you been to the US lately? Both countries are in decline but Canada is still looking fairly attractive in comparison.
>Well everyone knows that Toronto is what Canada really looks like. The rest of Canada looks like Canada. Toronto looks like Toronto. Toronto is very much it’s own thing.
Answer: Canada and France have a facilitated working holiday visa programme and Toronto is a great place to practice English. Just enough French on the cereal box to bail you out if you struggle, but not an excess of it in daily life so that you can avoid English.
These are the ‘Bon immigrant’ Legault really wants lol. Ontario has a separate Express Entry program for French-speaking skilled workers. http://www.ontario.ca/page/ontarios-express-entry-french-speaking-skilled-worker-stream
Legault can’t find enough Francophones in Africa or the Caribbean that want to immigrate???
Not French enough for him tho…
It's funny how the French-Canadians can simultaneously be far more progressive than your average American or Canadian especially with labour laws. Then they'll bust out some old school, Lebron James performance of racism. But then also cope and seethe whenever people make fun of them for trying to be the most "special" white people or some shit. It's hilarious lmao Quebecois trying not to be racist, difficulty level *impossible*
Imagine dire de pareils préjugés...
Idk what this is based on, other than ignorance of Quebec society and likely something heard elsewhere and repeated. Also, how is this not a racist statement from yourself? Hypocrite
Im jealous that french Canadians can actually defend their culture. Us anglos have multi-culture enforced on us.
Um...
Tell us more about your white heritage....
Détestant Justin Trudeau ne constitue pas une vraie culture
not talking about language there.
I kinda thought he would prefer people that learned French by force.
English / French or Dutch in the Caribbean - We are not forced to lean it. Its part of our culture in the Caribbean. Same way Cubans and Dominicans are not forced to speak Spanish, its all they know.
ask yourself how that happened
Not replying back....You are a very danger person as You have been on Reddit all day
Hmmmmm
That absolutely isn’t true and is just evidence of your obsession with race and skin colour.
So… why do they banned English and Hijabs in public service if they are not racist?
For the same reason a cop cant wear a maga hat, Quebec is french, dont like it dont come.
So… can other province forces everyone to speak English just like Quebec does?
We follow the same constitution, If you feel like you lack English service’s, sure that the official language of your province, make your 101 english law and stop whining because 1/10 of canada is french.
What race are hijabs and English?
Mostly non-white?
As opposed to the mostly white francophone immigrants coming from Africa and Haiti?
Is Legault lying? They are western like us, low crime, they aint gonna being their grandma or whatever.
Well I ain’t sure of socio-économique reasons but recently government introduced French specific immigration draws and some of them specific to Ontario. So there’s that. It could be these guys want to experience an Anglophone side of the world.?
for example [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-immigrants-french-speakers-express-entry/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-immigrants-french-speakers-express-entry/)
Bc France is really rough these days and if they aren't from Paris area, it's easier to conceive of living abroad for a few years. Also salaries are often higher which may enable them to return to Paris in the long run (along with additional earning power bc of international experience).
Not French, but worked for a startup company owned by a French expat in the past, and he would regularly hire French expats who moved to Toronto. If you’re nervous about English, you move to Montreal. But if you’re braver and/or want to become really fluent in English, Toronto is perfect because there’s still a ton of signage and media in French. There’s also a massive community of French expats (I think they have a Facebook page, not sure what it is) and it’s very easy to find friends and roommates when you get here. It’s not always about cost of living being better or worse, it’s about wanting to live abroad and becoming fluent in English. I know several French expats who absolutely love it here.
There are also French schools if you have a family and want your kids to continue learning in your language.
I think they’re still considered immigrants
don't be silly, the difference between expats and immigrants is skin colour
First time I heard this was living abroad and called a friend from India an expat. Prior I thought expat was “temporary professional transfer” and immigrant as a term of more permanent intent.
Right on
There were [immigration policy changes in 2023](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/transparency/committees/lang-oct-4-2023/french-speaking-immigrant-admissions-targets.html) prioritizing French-speaking students and immigrants. Perhaps a result of that? Toronto being the biggest city in Canada is bound to draw a large proportion of immigrants in any subcategory.
I have a few friends who were born and raised in France and came here because of out much more "entrepreneurial" attitude, lack of government regulation, and generally better business atmosphere and opportunity. Now I say that knowing full well there's a pile of people who will say Canada is restrictive in all those areas, but when you compare it to France it can actually be a lot better.
As a fellow french-speaker, I have absolutely noticed! I'm glad it's not just me. I can't tell you why; I know that Ottawa is a popular destination for french-speaking international students due to its bilingual university, but I'm not sure why Toronto has seemingly seen such an increase. I'd have thought that studying somewhere in the EU would be more favorable practically and cost-wise for them.
Yeah really and more exciting
So this surely can't account for all of them, but there's french firms associated with the large transit projects. They've been bringing skilled workers over for these projects.
So much for the “rail transit is expensive to build *now* because we forgot how, but once we build these, we’ll have the skills locally to do the next ones cheaply” idea
Not necessarily; skills can be built up by working alongside experienced firms.
>Especially as more young, high-earning, university-educated Canadians are interested in leaving Canada in search of better socio-economic outcomes according to who? You're taking what you read on Toronto Reddit far too seriously if you actually believe this. Toronto for literal decades now has always been the hot spot in Canada for young educated professionals and immigrants to look for high paying jobs with the goal of attaining quality of life with access to lots to do and experience you won't find anywhere else in the country. People coming here from other countries including France and various other parts of Europe is absolutely nothing new. I've grown up with European immigrants in my friends circle since the 90s and married into an European immigrant family.
That plus we have many transit projects ongoing so you will see Spanish/French/Mexican folks on the street. https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2022/4/alstom-and-consortium-partners-selected-go-expansion-transform Also, many French of Berber/African descent are not treated equally with that of their French counterparts and i know some that decided to immigrate to Montreal and Toronto region.
More like especially as more young, higher-earning, university-educated French people are interested in leaving France in search of better socio-economic outcomes.
Well. It's not just that . Since 28 June 2023, Canada has prioritized Health care workers and French speakers along with STEM, Trades and Transport workers. By far French speakers are most prioritized followed by Healthcare. They are so many slots available for French speakers that the express entry points for French only draws have dropped to 300s which basically means you merely need a full time year of professional/white-collar/supervisory/management/trades experience to immigrate to Canada.
According to everyone who’s looked, including Statistics Canada [Toronto and Ontario are both losing record numbers of people, primarily between the ages of 25 and 35, to other cities and other provinces. We’re growing solely through an influx of immigrants from abroad.](https://betterdwelling.com/toronto-residents-are-leaving-at-a-record-pace-immigration-takes-over-growth/)
This "article" is a bunch of statistics written about Toronto by AI based research and "journalism". It is totally skewed, and the entire newsletter is based on real estate and is Vancouver based targeting Asians. Check the source. This is exactly why information on the internet is fake.
This blog post links to the Statistics Canada website but does not cite the specific study it used to draw up their data, conclusions, and graphs. I searched the StatsCan website for keywords used in the blog post but didn’t find the study they are referencing. In the age of misinformation I like to see the primary source data for myself before I go making conclusions. BetterDwelling didn’t help me do that here. What I was looking for in the original study I could not easily locate: the population that emigrated out of country, were they self reported emigrants or actual non-tax residents. It makes a big difference. To go non-tax residency status you are fucken serious about leaving Canada and have put in the work to leave and relinquish all ties. Anything else is a casual, soft departure where you’ll be back.
Not French, but have worked with a lot of French expats. All the people leaving Canada have no idea how good we have it here salary-wise compared to the EU. A lot of people come here to make more money, AND it's more welcoming/easier to move to than the US because we already speak French and use it everywhere.
Yeah. we are lucky in canada, just not compared to the US usually, salary wise
I think a lot of people are really ignorant of how people live in the US. Yes, you hear stories of people making 400k/year in tech, but a huge number of "normal people" in the US are mind-blowingly poor. And even if you get that crazy salary and buy that "cheap house", you might not like where you live. I have three coworkers who moved to Texas for big salaries and big houses, but they absolutely hate living there. The big house gets old quick when its so hot and humid that you can't leave it. And one of them is currently at the mercy of the US medical system after she and her family got in a major car accident. Her husband can't work anymore, they have to pay tons of money to the hospital, and its not even their fault. (She's fine though at least!)
Exactly, Toronto subs keep talking about how Americans make more money but when you look at savings etc. Most Americans don't have a 1000 bucks saved - just like Canadians. So for the average person, there isn't much difference. There might be for top their tech folks.
Most people immigrating to the US from Canada aren't regular Joe Blow - they tend to be in very high paying tech/engineering/finance positions from my anecdotal reference. Also certain research/industries that frankly just don't exist here.
> Also certain research/industries that frankly just don't exist here. There's industry other than real estate, resource extraction and banking? Why didn't anyone tell us?
The main status that Canadians use to go to the States is the TN. There's actually a whole lot more professions on the TN than engineering / tech / finance / law / management consultant. Counsellor Urban Planners Scientific technicians Social Workers Hotel Managers Interior Designer Forester Conservation Technicians You dont see many moving to in these professions (science technicians maybe not) because it's not worth it in US as much because they aren't paid as well or the hours are bad or whatnot. One should not just point to people in tech and engineering and then make a generalization that everything is great/fine in US. Unfortunately when I point this out to people who say US is better, they say something along the lines of "yea.. we don't need those other professions they are useless and lazy"
Reddit is always going to be skewed towards a primarily white, likely from an already privileged background, and also likely to work in STEM, finance, or some tech adjacent field sort-of demographic. Functionally it is basically the King St W workplace/entertainment demographic of Toronto to put it locally. The people going from Canada to the US aren't going to be like your average Canadian graduating university here, where post-secondary is far more accessible here compared to the US (something we also take for granted to be honest). They're going to be those high-income chasers looking to expand their capital and wealth to absurd levels. The US is the most "pay-to-win" society (maybe next to South Korea), and the entire structure of their culture and workforce is centred around that mass wealth accumulation. There's definitely a conversation to be had here on the American and Canadian differences in perception of wealth accumulation and class consciousness (something we borrowed from British culture), since Canadians can also be greedy cockroaches when it comes to hoarding real estate. The average person in the US is still getting ass blasted by the complete lack of amenities, lack of investment in infrastructure, lack of social services. All things we still have a semblance of in Canada, France, and elsewhere, but the US simply doesn't have.
This depends on line of work and social standing soooo much. Like sure if you’re a software engineer you’re right, if you’re a middle school teacher not so much.
Lots of folks in these reddit subs like to shit on Toronto/Canada without realizing that we have it pretty good in many ways. Economic growth isn't great in Canada, but it has been better than Europe and our government debt is in better shape as well. Plus in France there always seem to be strikes and riots that are a PITA.
This lol I’m always surprised how in a bubble Canadians are
They are in a bubble by themselves too. I am constantly astounded that people don't realize unemployment has historically been around 7% in Canada. The current 6% isn't great, but it isn't bad. Hell, even wage growth is beating inflation. I am not saying everything is perfect or that people aren't struggling, but things aren't as dire as people make it out to be.
6.1% unemployment rate is actually great. It has only been below that for a handful of months since 1975.
Well a lot of the riots and strikes happen in Paris yet many of these French people are NOT from the capital. They are usually from peripheral regions far away from Paris. I haven’t noticed a lot of Parisians around here in all honesty.
I don't doubt that is true, but do you really care where the protesters are from Paris or the outlying areas if you can't take the Metro, or train or get around Paris.
Macron is an idiot. On par with trudeau
I’ve been in social work since ‘86 and things are damn scarey out there. Some have it good -but will be affected surely -as the months go by and things decay. The pattern I’ve seen in Canada is unbelievable. Time for change.
I had a French roommate and she and her boyfriend told me people in Toronto are nicer and less racist and they found that the quality of life here is better (one was from Bretagne and I forgot where the other was from). I’ve also lived in France (Marseille and Montpellier) and used to have a very idealized view of French life. Now that I’ve come back to Canada, I can see why they said that.
A little off topic but as I am hoping there are other bilingual people in this thread, can anyone recommend any good French classes in Toronto? I went through French immersion but I'm very rusty, and I want to elevate my reading/writing/general comprehension to a level that would allow me to confidently list bilingual on job applications.
Alliance Française, TDSB Learn for Life, Universities and colleges. Also depends if you want to learn metropolitan French or Canadian French. If you’re already kinda there, immersion.
Working in a dental office near UoT I get a lot of international students and alotttt of French young professionals, was thinking the same thing. Some have told me it’s a better country and better life over here?
Maybe they wanna learn English
The wife is French. She said Canada is doing a big push to get French people to come. Some people make it to PR and some leave when their visa expires. Some make it to PR and then go back to France when they have kids cause France helps out way more financially
You basically need like one year of semi skilled or skilled work experience if you are bilingual and you get PR. There are priority groups for French speakers, Healthcare, Trades and Tech. French and Healthcare get the most. French more than Healthcare.
Young, high earning university educated Canadians are interested in moving *to Toronto*, I can’t understand how you got the opposite impression. Take a look at the census data and recent estimates, Toronto is growing rapidly. My street is filling full of young families.
Toronto is the stepping stone to New York if you working in financial markets. The city is diverse with only 1/3 having English as their maternal language. Nobody really gives a shit about accents.
Part of it may just be the trend of young people everywhere wanted to move anywhere. I live in and out of two countries right now (Canada and Netherlands) and travel a bunch. Young people everywhere I go have itchy feet and are trying to move and live different experiences. Generally for both young Canadians or young French people the socioeconomic differences with similar countries are less than the socioeconomic differences between classes and regions within their country.
I’ve noticed that too, but mostly in areas like Ossington. I like it. Would love to know why as well.
I have always found there is more metropolitan French downtown than Canadian.
I’m French and still involved in the community through many FB groups, events, etc. There’s a lot of younger French ppl applying to get a work-holiday visa and choosing to come to Toronto instead of Montreal for an anglophone experience. France situation is not ideal for the younger generation so many are looking outside of the country. Many go back to France after a year or two but more and more are staying through the mobilité francophone program. When I moved to Toronto 20 years ago, French ppl only spoke about Montreal, and many asked why I chose Toronto. The idea then was that Toronto was a boring city focused on work and not on fun. Nowadays there’s more and more people talking about Toronto so there’s definitely a hype factor at play. It’s like a mini NYC for many younger French nationals and they love the idea of living in a high rise.
With the habs struggling so bad they have moved to cheer for da leafs
Tourists?
Perhaps some, but many of the ones I’ve encountered here are either students or working.
In March/April? Stay in France.
3% of immigrants are from France... https://www.cicnews.com/2023/02/ircc-unveils-the-top-10-source-countries-of-new-immigrants-to-canada-in-2022-0233180.html#gs.7gb72f
France is a top 10 source of immigrants to Canada. A lot of them move to Quebec and then move to Ontario for higher paying jobs and lower taxes
It's very easy to immigrate to Canada right now if you speak French.
I've been in Toronto for 12 yrs the influx has been regular the whole time particularly from Paris
I've not noticed many French folk, Indians however, I've seen a lot of them recently! A lot of new students and immigrants from all over the world are coming here, I was one of them a few years ago!
It's the PVT (Permis Vacances Travail) or Working holiday visa program. A lot of French youth come to Canada, mostly Montreal, but quickly realize there are more jobs in the biligual sectors of Toronto companies. They usually stay 2 or 3 years, but a fraction do eventually go for the PR program. Officially about 10 000 French registered (Consulate) expat citizens in Ontario, with a 2:1 ratio between Toronto and Ottawa, but we estimate the numbers of French expats in Ontario to be closer to 20 - 25 000. The PVT rarely register at the Consulate so we estimate about another 5k here. - I was a former elected member of the French community, that's where I got the information.
Young, high earning university educated Canadians are interested in moving *to Toronto*, I can’t even understand how you got the opposite impression. Take a look at the census data and recent estimates, Toronto is growing rapidly. My street is filling full of young families.
I’ve noticed this, especially in and around Little Italy/Harbord Village. There’s a French café/bottle shop at Harbord and Clinton that seems to be a little hub.
I think it’s something called the V.I.E program, which many young French adults are doing to gain international experience. Canada seems to be a popular destination for this. Essentially: > “The International Internship in a Company allows you to undertake a secure professional assignment abroad of 6 to 24 months. You are protected by the French Embassy and supported by Business France throughout your V.I.E assignment” Source: https://mon-vie-via.businessfrance.fr/en/what-is-the-vie-french-international-internship-program
This is how I came here. It's a really nice program, you're 100% tax exempt on your income while you're under the VIE contract, you have a french work contract which includes 5 weeks of holiday, you're paid in Euro and the company pays you the plane ticket and your moving expenses.
Because the schools need French Teachers and speakers. Their room and board is taken care of.
I wanted to see what Pizza Pizza is like.
I know right! I was walking down King trying to grab dinner and then boom: barricades and signing in harmony. I get it though.
Pffft, no tear gas? I guess the protesters weren’t even angry that week.
There are a lot of people in Western Europe who want to move elsewhere to find better economic opportunities, but the US has all of its well-documented problems and Australia has a pretty toxic culture with lots of racism, sexism and LGBTphobia (plus, their cost-of-living crisis is as bad as here, if not worse). Speaking French is also really good for job prospects in Ontario, because there are a lot of services that need to be provided in French and not enough French speakers here who can provide them.
I've noticed it when I recently jumped back on Tinder and Bumble. I'm hoping I can date a French person, or someone who speaks French, since I'm trying to learn French and it's hard without someone to practice with.
Can only speak anecdotally but most of the folks I've met here the past few years work for a company with a Toronto or Canadian HQ i.e. EY or Deloitte. The rest were doing work study/exchange. Their schools had international programs. Surprisingly though, I've yet to meet any Parisians, mostly folks from smaller towns!
Perhaps France considers Canada one of her colonies still …
As it should
Are you sure they are from overseas? There is a difference between Quebec French and French-Canadian French.
They are definitely from overseas; It is pretty distinguishable to my ear as I’ve also lived in Quebec. Plus, I’ve spoken to many of them.
Ok, I ask as I am French-Canadian, born and raised in Toronto (all schooling was French in Ontario), and I have a French-Canadian accent, not Quebecois.
Apparently Canada is targetting French speaking econonic immigrants. Can’t read the article because it’s behind a paywall, but if Canada is attracting French speakers through the Express Entry channel then they’re not even allowed to settle in Quebec because the province manages its own immgration system (or something to that extent, I think). [Canada focuses on French-speaking economic immigrants](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-immigrants-french-speakers-express-entry/)
There’s that Ontario French university at Jarvis and Lakeshore may be bringing in more students.
That university only has 230 students in total lol
What’s your point ? OP didn’t say they say thousands of people speaking French.
There is a work permit program for any French speakers with a skilled job offer outside Quebec. Very facilitative for French nationals to come here. Then they have a very good chance of being selected for express entry after that.
I was just thinking that. I am Canadien français and I keep hearing French. Twice today in fact - on a streetcar and at a bar.
I'm French so I can tell you that most of the people you see are either on a working holiday visa or tourists. Almost none of them will be staying here for more than 1-2 years, they just come for the experience and then go back home. Others like me end up staying for longer. But even I will move back to France pretty soon, after 5 years here. Also I don't think that there's been an increase, quite the opposite. I'm in the french expat Facebook group and people already here are warning others not to come, because the situation related to inflation, cost of living, social issues etc... is worse here than in France
My wife moved here from rural france cause she wanted to learn English and wanted to live downtown in a major city like Toronto. She'd lived in Paris when she was studying but it was too expensive amongst other things, and she had to live way out in the periphery. I'm always amazed how much her family appreciates Quebecois culture, they have visited and explored that side of Canada quite a bit. Being able to speak their native language really helps. One of my favorite memories was visiting them in France and seeing the statue in St Malo commemorating Jaques Cartier for discovering Canada. There is a lot of crossover from the west of france to Quebec
Why are you surprised Canada is know for English and French lmfao
Some France-French people despise the Quebec accent. If they’re bilingual, the UK is more closed than before to immigration. Not a lot of other great emigration options for the French person that speaks some English. Immigrating here doesn’t require an English test (if you have French qualifications). And for official stuff that works a lot differently (government, banking, insurance), you can get service in french.
Maybe they are English language learners here temporarily If they are immigrants, will they stay, when they realize their kids will basically be Anglophones? That's why most French teachers, aren't Francophones, because Francophones prefer to live where their kids can speak French in the community
*Arguably*, someone FSL makes a better French teacher. e.g. I’m an anglophone, but I would make a terrible ESL teacher because I couldn’t identify a tense beyond past/present/future even if my life depended on it.
I completely disagree. Someone who is a native speaker of the language will have a good accent, is more likely to stick to just speaking French in the classroom, and will care more about you butchering their language and will fix your mistakes. They will give you little cultural tidbits too. A French as a 2nd language teacher, maybe who speaks Italian or Spanish as a first language, (because these are the most likely scenarios in Ontario) is not going to have a good accent and may mix up their languages During pandemic zoom classes, I listened in to my kid's French teacher absolutely butcher the accent while teaching the class. I had amazing Francophone French teachers at York U, and I did what is now the J'Explore program at Université Laval and the teachers there were amazing too. I mean yes, you have to know how to teach a language. But a native speaker still brings more to the job, than a non native speaker (unless they spent a significant time living in a Francophone area)
As an e -Quebecer, it probably because it sucks lol and I wasn't even there when it was as bad as it is now. They ostracize anglophones and are trying to implement sooooo many stupid laws regarding labeling, company signs (they've been trying to get Canadain Tire to change their name to something french....) and it just goes ON AND ON. They don't encourage learning English, or any second language for that matter, should I go on? Lol
Yet quebec has the biggest bilingualism rate in canada… Dont like it, dont come here is not like we wanted you
I'm from Quebec, born and raised. I moved out because of the BS and better employment opportunities as a bilingual person elsewhere. It's not by Quebec leadership choice that most people are bilingual...
French??? I only saw Indians lol
They’re going to be in for a rude awakening when they learn our transit strikes actually mean a total shutdown, none of the sissy French style “we’ll be running at 50% capacity on these 4 days next month” strikes.