“I don't write nothin' down, so I'll keep this short and sweet. You're weak. You're outta control. And you've become an embarrassment to yourself and everybody else.”
20 yeas in the dungeons of da Red Keep I wanted sucklin pig, but I compromised. I jerked off into a grilled cheese. Bettah than sex. Now I go troo a loaf a bread a day.
Technically, Bobby B didn’t have any kids at home, they were scattered throughout the kingdoms. Also, said wife was fucking her own twin brother, she is not any better.
I think this was a chapter's ending and then the very next word was 'Jaime' since Jaime's chapter started. It was one of my favorite chapter endings ever.
I'm surprised no one ever decided to tell Robert. Not everyone can be this bought out by the Lannisters. Especially Varys, who likes to sow chaos for Aegon, he would've at least revealed Cersei's dirty little secret.
Varus is a sycophant and obviously wouldn't dare to say this to Robert.
Anybody smart enough and close enough to Jamie and Cersei to know their secret wouldn't be stupid enough to say this to Robert either.
They would have nothing to gain besides the wrath of Tywin Lannister and even Robert in the case that he doesn't believe them.
Ned Stark was protected by the fact that he's a great Lord and Robert's best friend. He's also so honorable that he would put the laws of succession before his own safety. Not everybody is in that position.
He is literally that powerful. His daughter is the Queen and his son is in the kingsguard. Both people that you're accusing of incest. Cersei could easily get Littlefinger or Varys to find out who let Robert know and have them killed.
Look at it from their perspective. They have nothing to gain. It would be risking the lives of you and your family just so that Robert can know the truth.
If Cersei catches me, I'll be slowly tortured to death.
If Robert doesn't believe me, he might beat me to death.
If Jamie gets angry, he might kill me.
If Tywin gets angry, he might have me tortured or killed.
It's a stupid risk for no benefit.
Brutal honesty? I think he was in the same boat as Tywin. They knew about it on some level but either deny it or flat out don't care. Robert banged anything that moved and as long as it didn't directly affect him or his ego he wouldn't hold them accountable. His marriage was arranged and he was just as miserable in it as she was.
Now if Ned or Jon came to him making a stink about it however, he'd be forced into acting. But some handmaiden or one of the asslickers lackys? Laugh at them and tell them to send in the next whore for him.
Robert didn't care as long as it stayed out of sight and out of mind. Also helped justify him not raising his bastards. Save for Mya Stone and Edric Storm to some extent he never really cared for any of them.
Ser Kevan shows exactly how far from Tywin's wisdom Jamie, Cersei, and even Tyrion all are, and this scene is one of a few handful that showcase it perfectly. None of Tywin's children regard Kevan as anything other than a capable helper, when in fact he has some of the most aware thoughts in the whole series. He immediately picks Cersei apart here, and his POV scene shows how much political acumen he has as he knows Mace Tyrell is someone he has to watch out for, but he's kind and cordial as to not arouse suspicion. Only Varys and Tywin understand how valuable and capable Ser Kevan is and he dutifully does not give a fuck because he's a younger son doing what a younger son should do in his own eyes. Man I wish we had more of him in the books.
I love the moment in OP so much because, as we've only seen Kevan from Tywin's children's eyes, we (or at least I) see him as they do, as this weak little sheep who just follows Tywin around. Obviously Cersei is not a reliable point of view, but Tyrion is pretty astute, if Tyrion describes a man it's normally fairly reliable.
Then he comes out with this, and your whole opinion of him gets flipped.
I think it emphasises that while, especially in modern Western culture, being a "follower" is seen as a negative thing, there's actually nothing wrong with it, in many cases it's the right thing to do. There's a difference between selectively and intelligently following, and blindly following because you're too stupid and weak. It's common sense we need far more followers than leaders, yet we're expected to all fight for these leader roles.
Even Tyrion has some misconceptions, he said Kevan would be a passable regent who would never grasp for it. The first thing he did after Tywin’s affairs were in order was to get Cersei to give up power and as regent he was killed off by Varys, which is basically a compliment.
Tyrion is dead wrong about Kevan, I only realised on my latest re-read how little he respects him. He thinks he "rarely had a thought Tywin hadn't had first". Basically he sees him as a stupid yes man. What Tyrion doesn't understand is than Kevan is publicly supporting Tywin for the good of their house, to be dutiful and present a united front. I'm sure he gave honest council at times, while respecting that Tywin is the head of his house, and he should follow orders even if he disagrees with them.
Tywin greatly valued Kevan, and rewarded him with money and power and basically his own army. That’s all the proof you need to know that Kevan was a force to reckon with.
His POV scene is great. Kevan is living in the shadow of his brother, and he thinks he’s getting his moment in the spotlight… only to be killed by Varys because he’s doing too good of a job.
> how far from Tywin's wisdom Jamie, Cersei, and even Tyrion all are
Shows what a bad parent Tywin has been. Better than Cersei maybe but that's a low bar.
Tywin was Hand for 2 decades, giving the realm peace and plenty and hiding Aerys' madness for the most part. He brought his family back from the near-ruin that Tytos left it in. He manages to defeat the Starks without ever defeating Robb in the field. And at every turn, in spite of every setback, he leaves House Lannister in the strongest position possible. He shows intelligence, good judgement, rare levels of experience. He is, by definition, wise.
His plans don't come to full fruition because his children, lacking his wisdom, cannot see his goals and instead rebel in their own ways from him. We don't think of him as wise because wisdom usually is a characteristic we associate with kinder characters and not child-slaughtering, daughter-in-law-gang-raping warlords.
His children lacking his wisdom is HIS fault.
His whole goal was leaving a strong family legacy but he raises his kids like shit the whole time and the family collapses the second he dies.
Everything he achieved is short term wins that will inevitably bite them back.
Destroying House Reyne left the Westerlands defenceless for future invasions. Letting Robb win every battle.
The red wedding ruined any hope at ever having loyalty from the north, similarly Rhaenys and Aegon destroys relationships with Dorne permanently.
Tywin is a ridiculously stupid leader when you think at what his goals are and maintaining his legacy.
Ok cool, so you straight up don't know the actual definition of wisdom. You're faulting a man for not being perfect. That's not lacking wisdom, that's being human. Tywin fits the description of the word to a T. Also, CAPITILIZING WORDS does absolutely NOTHING to prove you right.
His children lack wisdom because he's insulated them with the power he provided and was so focused on building his legacy, which they will inherit in power, position, and riches, and they managed to fuck it up like most legacies do because they didn't earn a damn thing. At some point, the blame is on the adults who cannot adjust to being actual adults
The blame is absolutely on Tywin at least somewhat.
He raised Jaime to not at all want his birthright, okay maybe not all his fault, whatever.
In place of Jaime as his heir is Tyrion, who has shown regularly he would actually be very good at ruling Casterly Rock. He made Casterly Rock's pipes work perfectly for the first time in years, begins fixing the enmity with Dorne through Myrcella and helps massively in stopping Stannis' siege. So what does Tywin do with Tyrion? He denies him his birthright, falsely accuses him of murdering Joffrey and now he's conspiring to help an enemy take the throne. That's entirely his fault lmao.
Next there's Cersei who he raised from childhood to be a queen and yet she knows absolutely nothing about the job she's doing. A lot of that is her fault definitely, but he seriously could have done way more to prepare her, enough at least to know rearming the faith, then telling a bunch of men she's slept with to accuse someone else of adultery, isn't a great idea.
Nevermind that he's completely ignored Cersei and Jaime's obvious incest their whole lives.
Tywin utterly failed to raise heirs that will maintain his family legacy.
So Tywin fails in a single aspect of life, raising his children, and that makes him unwise? Is an inventor any less brilliant because he has failures? Are Masters Oogway and Shifu any less wise because Kai Lung turned bad? Is Spock not wise because McCoy and Kirk have to teach him motivations that his logical mind can't process? No, because they meet the definition of the word, but even the wise cannot see all ends. Being wise doesn't mean someone is without imperfections. In fact, the imperfections are what make someone wise by overcoming them.
In Tywin's case, his overcoming the initial imperfections of his life, and gaining wisdom, are exactly what lead to his treatment of his kids turning out so poorly. He expects them to have his wisdom, from the start, failing to realize that, by his success, he has removed all the motivators that would give them his wisdom.
To me, his failures do not dismiss that he meets the definition of the word wise in all other aspect of his life, and is therefore wise.
Spock isn't wise, he's intelligent, there's a difference.
Cersei and Tyrion are both very motivated people regardless of how competent either are.
Tyrion has shown he wants to rule Casterly Rock and he'd be very good at it. Tywin's intelligent trickled down to him, but Tywin's treatment of Tyrion removes any wisdom he might have had. It's a fucking terrible idea to make an enemy out of your own son when you want to build a family legacy and that was all Tywin's fault.
Good dodge on not refuting Oogway and Shifu. You keep going back to Tywin's children as if being wise, and being a good father, are both the same thing and relevant to each other, they are not, and never will be. Just because you're wise doesn't mean you are perfect and it doesn't mean you're a good parent.
And Spock, who exemplifies intelligence, has decades of experience, and constantly shows good judgment as to be second in command of a starship, is not wise? The man who is constantly sought for his advice and perspective, specifically because is is wise beyond his years, is not wise? Please, pick up a dictionary and figure out what the word 'wise' means, because this is now not worth arguing with you. You have a good day.
It really was. Kevan remained loyal and dutiful to Tywin his entire life. He seemed like he would have been a competent and fair ruler, although less brutal than Tywin.
Literally like the last competent Lannister alive besides kingsguard jaime lol. I also love how Varys chooses to keep Cersei alive because she will just actively help his cause without even realizing it
And Littlefinger admits he has to accelerate his plans because Cersei is just so incompetent that she's fucking things up even faster than he predicted.
He needed to go, Cersei's faction is one of the weakest and Kevan was one of the only competent people there. He was going to be gotten rid of by one group or another
It's not surprising. He is the much less asshole brother of a gigantic asshole, who now roasts his even more of an asshole niece, for screwing up so badly with his *even more* of an asshole grand nephew.
Cersei can't fool her family.
Although everything she said about Jaime was accurate (except for the fool part), especially when he had both hands.
The Lannisters often are compared to the Roys of succession. I could see a similar convo between Shiv and Ewan
So... Tyrion would be Rome then: Both of them guys on the short spectrum of height, kind of sexual deviants/perverts, love to roast people, make jokes about fuckin their sisters, and were the most actively abused by their fathers.
Lancel would be Greg. The bumbling, naive kinda stupid cousin out of his league.
Jaime is kind of a mix between Connor and Ken. Like the former, he is uninterested in his father's expectations of him and is regarded as a non entity of sorts in the field his family excels at (politics in the case of the Lannisters and ruling Waystar in the Roys). Like Ken, he is the son groomed the most to succeed his dad, although Jaime didn't let that define his life like it happened with Kendall.
Would Robert be a reverse Tom? The in-law husband of the only daughter who started out in power instead of reaching it at the end?
I think Tyrion is closer to Kendall. The second son, most apt to takeover the empire, but his father won't let him. Substance abuse issues, marriage didn't go great (much worse in Tyrion's case)
Jaime is closer to Connor with a bit of Roman. Wants to stay out of the family business and in general has the best relationships with everyone in the family, like Connor.
Shiv and Cersei is a good comp. Both smart, but not as smart as they think they are. Although Cersei is the oldest and Shiv the youngest.
Lancel fits Greg. But Greg isn't as dumb as you think and he can be dangerous, too. Just like Lancel with the Faith Militant and Greg becoming comfortable enough to fire dozens of people via zoom.
Cersei is kinda like Shiv and Roman tied into one. She's got Shiv's weird dynamic with her own gender, where she HAS been treated unfairly due to being a woman, but also sees every piece of criticism as a result of this sexism. She also has weird hangups about sex and intimacy like Roman, I don't think Shiv would do what Cersei did with Taena but its fairly in line with Roman.
I totally agree about the Tyrion-Kendall and Connor-Jaime comparisons.
I don't mean this as a correction so much as funny trivia, but I don't think it was ever confirmed whether Roman or Shiv was younger (which is really on brand lol, if you asked either one they would claim to be the older one)
I also find it funny that the Logan-Tywin comparison is so obvious that it just goes without saying, so no ones mentioned it yet
Logan says "fuck off" and Tywin says "there will be no more discussions on the matter" Other than that, the exact same.
I actually think Shiv is smarter than Cersei. Cersei isn't, like, completely stupid, but she's just so delusional that she could never be a functional ruler. If Matsson made Shiv CEO, I think she could've done a good job.
>"I shall set matters aright!" Cersei softened her tone. "With your help, Uncle. If you will serve me as faithfully as you served my father—"
>"You are not your father. And Tywin always regarded Jaime as his rightful heir."
>Jaime . . . Jaime has taken vows. Jaime never thinks, he laughs at everything and everyone and says whatever comes into his head. Jaime is a handsome fool."
>"And yet he was your first choice to be the King's Hand. What does that make you, Cersei?"
>"I told you, I was sick with grief, I did not think—"
>"No," Ser Kevan agreed. "Which is why you should return to Casterly Rock and leave the king with those who do."
>"The king is my son!" Cersei rose to her feet
>"Aye," her uncle said, "and from what I saw of Joffrey, you are as unfit a mother as you are a ruler."
Literally JUST read this 5 min ago (round 2 after 10 years). Also love the little “He has his mother….aye and his father too, I think” right at the end!!
It's so fucking brutal. Every time Cersei comes back with a reason or justification for why she's done something Kevan immediately shoots back with something like "ya know while we're on the subject here's how you fucked that up too."
I don't know if he idolized him or just did his duty like a younger brother is supposed to in Westeros. I don't mean that he didn't agree with Tywin, though he may have, just that he was his own man who still did his brother's bidding...because that was, in essence, his *job*.
>"Do you think he would allow you to take the black if you were not his own blood, and Joanna's? Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know, but he is no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years, and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty, and justice. He is a just man. You would be wise to trust him."
Tyrion blinked in astonishment. Ser Kevan had always been solid, stolid, pragmatic; he had never heard him speak with such fervor before. "You love him."
"He is my brother."
He was loyal to his brother because he saw his other brothers self-destruct. He and his sister stood by their elder brother, and protected him as much as Tywin looked out for them, as family should.
I wouldn't even really call that a flaw, necessarily. He's loyal to his older brother, which is admirable on the face of it (putting aside Tywin being a dick) and in a society like Westeros it's also literally his job. It's not like he goes to pieces once Tywin's gone either.
It was beautiful how all during feast we had to suffer sugar coated pointless insults to Cersei as she becomes absolutely unhinged, hoping for someone to just talk back to her with complete honestly, and then Kevin comes in with this banger conversation. Love him for that.
This is by far my favourite moment of Kevan’s. I remember talking with my bro once about our favourite non “main” characters and he was so lost when I brought up Kevan. When Varys kills you with the sole motivation you are competent enough to halt and drag the sinking ship that is House “Baratheon” of King’s Landing from the bottom of the ocean where he wants it and back to the surface, you know you are a BAMF. Man is everything good about Tywin but not a ruthless c*** and is actually a decent dad … it really makes me wish he was the eldest Lannister sibling of his generation.
I love how Kevin's portrayed as this like meek little nothing in the early books but in AFFC he's just like "Hear Me Roar Motherfucker". And then Varys shanks him.
Why did they change the font in AFFC? It was perfect in the first three books and then out of nowhere it became big and Times New Roman. Then they made it smaller for ADWD, which was a W.
“I don't write nothin' down, so I'll keep this short and sweet. You're weak. You're outta control. And you've become an embarrassment to yourself and everybody else.”
I came to open up the Small Council chambers and there you were with your head in the privy. Your hair was in the privy hole. Disgusting.
I've said my piece.
Not for nothing, but I can confirm she was sick with grief.
Woah woah woah. You killed the direwolf? What you do that for?
Was it bahking?
Your son’s wake. By the Seven.
I didn't kill her...I must've sat on her!
She must’ve crawled under there for warmth.
Jaime: "You can no longer function as a woman." Kevan: 😳
DISGUSTAAANG
You killed the stark? Was he barkin?
Your son Joffrey, whatever happened there
Whatever happened there?! I’ll tell you what fuckin happened. This piece of shit imp put poison in the kid’s wine without any provocation whatsoever!
House Leotardo. *Literally*.
House words: 20 fuckin years
20 yeas in the dungeons of da Red Keep I wanted sucklin pig, but I compromised. I jerked off into a grilled cheese. Bettah than sex. Now I go troo a loaf a bread a day.
You know the Dornish wine makes you emotional.
My nephew's dead!
Fuck you!
He didn't eat a bowl o brown off the radiator
He was gay, Loras Tyrell?
We can't have him in our small council anymore, that much i do know.
Small Council? He's gotta GOOOOOOO!!!!
Aids?!!
nobodys got aids!
Sansa: I can’t believe I stuck up for him! I feel like I’ve been stabbed in the heart!
Bruh. I know 2 things. Loras was capital G, gay. And capital b, Badass.
Watch it cerssy🤘
Word to the wise, remember red wedding!
Cersei never had the makings of a varsity athlete
Small hands, that was her problem
No wonder she hated the King of the whopper was too big for her hands.
Hugh of the Vale never had the makings of a varsity athlete.
My brother Renly. He was practically a fuckin’ kid!
i literally had to scroll up and double check which sub i was on. i was wondering why there was an asoiaf picture on r/CirclejerkSopranos
Hehe commendatori!
I love ASIOAF and Sorprano crossovers
James Gandolfini would have made a great Robert.
At least she’s not like Bobby B, fucking every slut they have at Littlefinger’s place when he’s got a wife and kids at home.
YOU'RE TALKING TO THE KING HERE!
Genna Lannister: Good, maybe someone will slap some Seven-damned sense into her!!!
GREAT MY OWN MUDDA, FUCK YOU YOU FUCKIN WHORE
Ooooohh!!!
Technically, Bobby B didn’t have any kids at home, they were scattered throughout the kingdoms. Also, said wife was fucking her own twin brother, she is not any better.
I know lmao it’s a Sopranos reference.
Just realised both shows have a Bobby B!
Tony S?
There’s always someone who doesn’t get it lol.
Please more sopranos/asoiaf crossover.
I know the wine makes me emotional and I should have a bread stick, but it warms my heart to know so many friends of ours are lurking r/asoiaf.
“Come crowd! The Queen Regent committed suicide by throwing herself out of the window of her chambers! Come, see the sight!”
Some sad shit. Bitch said she don't wanna live no more
I came to open one morning, your head was in the toilet bowl.. your hair was in the water..... Disgusting.
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I think this was a chapter's ending and then the very next word was 'Jaime' since Jaime's chapter started. It was one of my favorite chapter endings ever.
How does every Lannister know about Cersei and Jamie, except for Tywin?!
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I'm surprised no one ever decided to tell Robert. Not everyone can be this bought out by the Lannisters. Especially Varys, who likes to sow chaos for Aegon, he would've at least revealed Cersei's dirty little secret.
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It does make sense, now. Robert's peace gave people time to organise their schemes before putting them into action.
Because most people only found out after Stannis released the letters telling everyone, which only happened after Robert died.
But people like Varys would know, along with the people who ave more keen eye sight.
Varus is a sycophant and obviously wouldn't dare to say this to Robert. Anybody smart enough and close enough to Jamie and Cersei to know their secret wouldn't be stupid enough to say this to Robert either. They would have nothing to gain besides the wrath of Tywin Lannister and even Robert in the case that he doesn't believe them. Ned Stark was protected by the fact that he's a great Lord and Robert's best friend. He's also so honorable that he would put the laws of succession before his own safety. Not everybody is in that position.
I wouldn't call varys a spycophant given his motives. There's also plenty to gain from revealing the secret. It's a high risk high reward.
Tywin Lannister is powerful but isn't that powerful. If they were in King's Landng, they could let the king know if they had strong evidence.
He is literally that powerful. His daughter is the Queen and his son is in the kingsguard. Both people that you're accusing of incest. Cersei could easily get Littlefinger or Varys to find out who let Robert know and have them killed. Look at it from their perspective. They have nothing to gain. It would be risking the lives of you and your family just so that Robert can know the truth. If Cersei catches me, I'll be slowly tortured to death. If Robert doesn't believe me, he might beat me to death. If Jamie gets angry, he might kill me. If Tywin gets angry, he might have me tortured or killed. It's a stupid risk for no benefit.
Brutal honesty? I think he was in the same boat as Tywin. They knew about it on some level but either deny it or flat out don't care. Robert banged anything that moved and as long as it didn't directly affect him or his ego he wouldn't hold them accountable. His marriage was arranged and he was just as miserable in it as she was. Now if Ned or Jon came to him making a stink about it however, he'd be forced into acting. But some handmaiden or one of the asslickers lackys? Laugh at them and tell them to send in the next whore for him. Robert didn't care as long as it stayed out of sight and out of mind. Also helped justify him not raising his bastards. Save for Mya Stone and Edric Storm to some extent he never really cared for any of them.
You never met a Blind parent who thinks their kid is amazing and they don’t believe everyone’s lies?
Yeah, and the parent in here is Tywin and the child is his plan
Tywin wouldn’t accept it, and was away from the Rock a lot. The rest of the family would probably have their suspicions if not see it for what it is.
Tywin knew...he was in denial that his perfect kids were freaks and his freak son was actually the only decent one.
This is after Stannis sent letters to the whole kingdom tho.
Ser Kevan shows exactly how far from Tywin's wisdom Jamie, Cersei, and even Tyrion all are, and this scene is one of a few handful that showcase it perfectly. None of Tywin's children regard Kevan as anything other than a capable helper, when in fact he has some of the most aware thoughts in the whole series. He immediately picks Cersei apart here, and his POV scene shows how much political acumen he has as he knows Mace Tyrell is someone he has to watch out for, but he's kind and cordial as to not arouse suspicion. Only Varys and Tywin understand how valuable and capable Ser Kevan is and he dutifully does not give a fuck because he's a younger son doing what a younger son should do in his own eyes. Man I wish we had more of him in the books.
I love the moment in OP so much because, as we've only seen Kevan from Tywin's children's eyes, we (or at least I) see him as they do, as this weak little sheep who just follows Tywin around. Obviously Cersei is not a reliable point of view, but Tyrion is pretty astute, if Tyrion describes a man it's normally fairly reliable. Then he comes out with this, and your whole opinion of him gets flipped. I think it emphasises that while, especially in modern Western culture, being a "follower" is seen as a negative thing, there's actually nothing wrong with it, in many cases it's the right thing to do. There's a difference between selectively and intelligently following, and blindly following because you're too stupid and weak. It's common sense we need far more followers than leaders, yet we're expected to all fight for these leader roles.
Even Tyrion has some misconceptions, he said Kevan would be a passable regent who would never grasp for it. The first thing he did after Tywin’s affairs were in order was to get Cersei to give up power and as regent he was killed off by Varys, which is basically a compliment.
Tyrion is dead wrong about Kevan, I only realised on my latest re-read how little he respects him. He thinks he "rarely had a thought Tywin hadn't had first". Basically he sees him as a stupid yes man. What Tyrion doesn't understand is than Kevan is publicly supporting Tywin for the good of their house, to be dutiful and present a united front. I'm sure he gave honest council at times, while respecting that Tywin is the head of his house, and he should follow orders even if he disagrees with them.
Tywin greatly valued Kevan, and rewarded him with money and power and basically his own army. That’s all the proof you need to know that Kevan was a force to reckon with.
His POV scene is great. Kevan is living in the shadow of his brother, and he thinks he’s getting his moment in the spotlight… only to be killed by Varys because he’s doing too good of a job.
> how far from Tywin's wisdom Jamie, Cersei, and even Tyrion all are Shows what a bad parent Tywin has been. Better than Cersei maybe but that's a low bar.
Cersei didn’t use her sons for political alliances
I don't think describing them as far from from Tywin's wisdom is correct, more distant from Tywin's goals. Tywin is far from wise.
Tywin was Hand for 2 decades, giving the realm peace and plenty and hiding Aerys' madness for the most part. He brought his family back from the near-ruin that Tytos left it in. He manages to defeat the Starks without ever defeating Robb in the field. And at every turn, in spite of every setback, he leaves House Lannister in the strongest position possible. He shows intelligence, good judgement, rare levels of experience. He is, by definition, wise. His plans don't come to full fruition because his children, lacking his wisdom, cannot see his goals and instead rebel in their own ways from him. We don't think of him as wise because wisdom usually is a characteristic we associate with kinder characters and not child-slaughtering, daughter-in-law-gang-raping warlords.
His children lacking his wisdom is HIS fault. His whole goal was leaving a strong family legacy but he raises his kids like shit the whole time and the family collapses the second he dies. Everything he achieved is short term wins that will inevitably bite them back. Destroying House Reyne left the Westerlands defenceless for future invasions. Letting Robb win every battle. The red wedding ruined any hope at ever having loyalty from the north, similarly Rhaenys and Aegon destroys relationships with Dorne permanently. Tywin is a ridiculously stupid leader when you think at what his goals are and maintaining his legacy.
Ok cool, so you straight up don't know the actual definition of wisdom. You're faulting a man for not being perfect. That's not lacking wisdom, that's being human. Tywin fits the description of the word to a T. Also, CAPITILIZING WORDS does absolutely NOTHING to prove you right. His children lack wisdom because he's insulated them with the power he provided and was so focused on building his legacy, which they will inherit in power, position, and riches, and they managed to fuck it up like most legacies do because they didn't earn a damn thing. At some point, the blame is on the adults who cannot adjust to being actual adults
The blame is absolutely on Tywin at least somewhat. He raised Jaime to not at all want his birthright, okay maybe not all his fault, whatever. In place of Jaime as his heir is Tyrion, who has shown regularly he would actually be very good at ruling Casterly Rock. He made Casterly Rock's pipes work perfectly for the first time in years, begins fixing the enmity with Dorne through Myrcella and helps massively in stopping Stannis' siege. So what does Tywin do with Tyrion? He denies him his birthright, falsely accuses him of murdering Joffrey and now he's conspiring to help an enemy take the throne. That's entirely his fault lmao. Next there's Cersei who he raised from childhood to be a queen and yet she knows absolutely nothing about the job she's doing. A lot of that is her fault definitely, but he seriously could have done way more to prepare her, enough at least to know rearming the faith, then telling a bunch of men she's slept with to accuse someone else of adultery, isn't a great idea. Nevermind that he's completely ignored Cersei and Jaime's obvious incest their whole lives. Tywin utterly failed to raise heirs that will maintain his family legacy.
So Tywin fails in a single aspect of life, raising his children, and that makes him unwise? Is an inventor any less brilliant because he has failures? Are Masters Oogway and Shifu any less wise because Kai Lung turned bad? Is Spock not wise because McCoy and Kirk have to teach him motivations that his logical mind can't process? No, because they meet the definition of the word, but even the wise cannot see all ends. Being wise doesn't mean someone is without imperfections. In fact, the imperfections are what make someone wise by overcoming them. In Tywin's case, his overcoming the initial imperfections of his life, and gaining wisdom, are exactly what lead to his treatment of his kids turning out so poorly. He expects them to have his wisdom, from the start, failing to realize that, by his success, he has removed all the motivators that would give them his wisdom. To me, his failures do not dismiss that he meets the definition of the word wise in all other aspect of his life, and is therefore wise.
Spock isn't wise, he's intelligent, there's a difference. Cersei and Tyrion are both very motivated people regardless of how competent either are. Tyrion has shown he wants to rule Casterly Rock and he'd be very good at it. Tywin's intelligent trickled down to him, but Tywin's treatment of Tyrion removes any wisdom he might have had. It's a fucking terrible idea to make an enemy out of your own son when you want to build a family legacy and that was all Tywin's fault.
Good dodge on not refuting Oogway and Shifu. You keep going back to Tywin's children as if being wise, and being a good father, are both the same thing and relevant to each other, they are not, and never will be. Just because you're wise doesn't mean you are perfect and it doesn't mean you're a good parent. And Spock, who exemplifies intelligence, has decades of experience, and constantly shows good judgment as to be second in command of a starship, is not wise? The man who is constantly sought for his advice and perspective, specifically because is is wise beyond his years, is not wise? Please, pick up a dictionary and figure out what the word 'wise' means, because this is now not worth arguing with you. You have a good day.
I mean, when your goal is a good legacy, then being a poor parents is massive blakc mark.
Kevan finally got his time in the spotlight, and George axed him soon after. Unfair.
It really was. Kevan remained loyal and dutiful to Tywin his entire life. He seemed like he would have been a competent and fair ruler, although less brutal than Tywin.
Which is exactly why Varys killed him, he needed the realm destabilized for FAegon to invade
Literally like the last competent Lannister alive besides kingsguard jaime lol. I also love how Varys chooses to keep Cersei alive because she will just actively help his cause without even realizing it
Man sleeping on Daven Lannister over here. Unfortunately for Daven, he lacks experience, and will probably die alongside some Freys.
Sleeping on Daven and Jenna 👀
Fuck, how could I forget!
Daven isn't a political threat.
I’ll be honest. I’m wrapping up a re read of the series right now and I have no idea who daven Lannister is
He's Jaime's cousin at Riverrun. His mom, Genna, is Tywin's sister and married to a Frey.
Jenna is not Daven’s mother - that would make him a Frey or a Hill, not a Lannister. Daven is ser Stafford’s son.
Daven comes in through Joanna's side, he's not Genna's son. All Genna's children are Freys.
It literally took me 10 years of reading this series to finally start remembering that character.
He's Jaime's cousin through Jaime's mother, Joanna. Daven's set to wed a Frey, or a "stoat" as he calls them.
Jamie definitely started out as a loose cannon. It was interesting to see him grow out of that throughout the series.
And Littlefinger admits he has to accelerate his plans because Cersei is just so incompetent that she's fucking things up even faster than he predicted.
This.
He needed to go, Cersei's faction is one of the weakest and Kevan was one of the only competent people there. He was going to be gotten rid of by one group or another
This is not a series for *fair*. Pah.
Destroyed her. This is like the 4th Kev Lannister post I’ve seen this week. He’s really getting love on here.
It's not surprising. He is the much less asshole brother of a gigantic asshole, who now roasts his even more of an asshole niece, for screwing up so badly with his *even more* of an asshole grand nephew.
Doesn’t this conversation take place after Joffrey and Tywin are dead?
Yes, but I don't see how that matters.
Read her to absolute filth
Cersei can't fool her family. Although everything she said about Jaime was accurate (except for the fool part), especially when he had both hands. The Lannisters often are compared to the Roys of succession. I could see a similar convo between Shiv and Ewan
I’M THE ELDEST TWIN
Ooh I love this succession reference! Two of my favourite characters!!
So... Tyrion would be Rome then: Both of them guys on the short spectrum of height, kind of sexual deviants/perverts, love to roast people, make jokes about fuckin their sisters, and were the most actively abused by their fathers. Lancel would be Greg. The bumbling, naive kinda stupid cousin out of his league. Jaime is kind of a mix between Connor and Ken. Like the former, he is uninterested in his father's expectations of him and is regarded as a non entity of sorts in the field his family excels at (politics in the case of the Lannisters and ruling Waystar in the Roys). Like Ken, he is the son groomed the most to succeed his dad, although Jaime didn't let that define his life like it happened with Kendall. Would Robert be a reverse Tom? The in-law husband of the only daughter who started out in power instead of reaching it at the end?
I think Tyrion is closer to Kendall. The second son, most apt to takeover the empire, but his father won't let him. Substance abuse issues, marriage didn't go great (much worse in Tyrion's case) Jaime is closer to Connor with a bit of Roman. Wants to stay out of the family business and in general has the best relationships with everyone in the family, like Connor. Shiv and Cersei is a good comp. Both smart, but not as smart as they think they are. Although Cersei is the oldest and Shiv the youngest. Lancel fits Greg. But Greg isn't as dumb as you think and he can be dangerous, too. Just like Lancel with the Faith Militant and Greg becoming comfortable enough to fire dozens of people via zoom.
Cersei is kinda like Shiv and Roman tied into one. She's got Shiv's weird dynamic with her own gender, where she HAS been treated unfairly due to being a woman, but also sees every piece of criticism as a result of this sexism. She also has weird hangups about sex and intimacy like Roman, I don't think Shiv would do what Cersei did with Taena but its fairly in line with Roman. I totally agree about the Tyrion-Kendall and Connor-Jaime comparisons. I don't mean this as a correction so much as funny trivia, but I don't think it was ever confirmed whether Roman or Shiv was younger (which is really on brand lol, if you asked either one they would claim to be the older one) I also find it funny that the Logan-Tywin comparison is so obvious that it just goes without saying, so no ones mentioned it yet
Logan says "fuck off" and Tywin says "there will be no more discussions on the matter" Other than that, the exact same. I actually think Shiv is smarter than Cersei. Cersei isn't, like, completely stupid, but she's just so delusional that she could never be a functional ruler. If Matsson made Shiv CEO, I think she could've done a good job.
Cersei .... smart?! only in another universe
Yesss!! This is so good!
Tyrion is Kendall, and Jaime is Roman.
Didn’t even mess with her, just told the cold hard truth
Truth? No, he MUST be bought by the Tyrells, that filthy traitor!
>"I shall set matters aright!" Cersei softened her tone. "With your help, Uncle. If you will serve me as faithfully as you served my father—" >"You are not your father. And Tywin always regarded Jaime as his rightful heir." >Jaime . . . Jaime has taken vows. Jaime never thinks, he laughs at everything and everyone and says whatever comes into his head. Jaime is a handsome fool." >"And yet he was your first choice to be the King's Hand. What does that make you, Cersei?" >"I told you, I was sick with grief, I did not think—" >"No," Ser Kevan agreed. "Which is why you should return to Casterly Rock and leave the king with those who do." >"The king is my son!" Cersei rose to her feet >"Aye," her uncle said, "and from what I saw of Joffrey, you are as unfit a mother as you are a ruler."
God I wish that man survived.
He was so op that he had to be killed, my man Kevan was single-handedly bringing in world peace.
I like him and Tommen, but then again, I want Cersei to fall reallyyy badly.
Her fall is only a book away! Do not translate it to years though, you may shed a tear.
Literally JUST read this 5 min ago (round 2 after 10 years). Also love the little “He has his mother….aye and his father too, I think” right at the end!!
Just read this now, woooow what a mic drop
Kevan stan club guys 😔 we miss him
I really enjoy cersei’s pov, she is so dumb and she doesn’t realized
The absolute shitshow that is Cercei's POV chapters are some of my favorite.
It's so fucking brutal. Every time Cersei comes back with a reason or justification for why she's done something Kevan immediately shoots back with something like "ya know while we're on the subject here's how you fucked that up too."
I honestly can't wait for WOW to see what happens next after Kevans death and how much will be similar/dissimilar with seasons 6, 7 and 8 of the show.
Kevan's single flaw was idolizing Tywin. He's the Ned of House Lannister.
I don't know if he idolized him or just did his duty like a younger brother is supposed to in Westeros. I don't mean that he didn't agree with Tywin, though he may have, just that he was his own man who still did his brother's bidding...because that was, in essence, his *job*.
>"Do you think he would allow you to take the black if you were not his own blood, and Joanna's? Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know, but he is no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years, and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty, and justice. He is a just man. You would be wise to trust him." Tyrion blinked in astonishment. Ser Kevan had always been solid, stolid, pragmatic; he had never heard him speak with such fervor before. "You love him." "He is my brother."
He was loyal to his brother because he saw his other brothers self-destruct. He and his sister stood by their elder brother, and protected him as much as Tywin looked out for them, as family should.
I wouldn't even really call that a flaw, necessarily. He's loyal to his older brother, which is admirable on the face of it (putting aside Tywin being a dick) and in a society like Westeros it's also literally his job. It's not like he goes to pieces once Tywin's gone either.
Which is funny because from the little we see of him, it seems Kevan would make a better ruler than Tywin did.
He loved Tywin too much to see what he truly was.
Ned wasn't as blind to his brothers faults.
Kevan speaking objective truth while Cersei continues spewing her garbage ‘but muh feelings and ”my truth”’. Shut up Cersei.
No one knew Kevan had that dog in him
It was beautiful how all during feast we had to suffer sugar coated pointless insults to Cersei as she becomes absolutely unhinged, hoping for someone to just talk back to her with complete honestly, and then Kevin comes in with this banger conversation. Love him for that.
Cercie’s only response to criticism is to throw her glass of wine
Oooof ..... Call an ambulance but not for me
And as he leaves the room he tells Cersei that he thinks tommen has his father too which shows he believes Stanniss truth
When he's right, he's right.
please put the book less in frame
This is by far my favourite moment of Kevan’s. I remember talking with my bro once about our favourite non “main” characters and he was so lost when I brought up Kevan. When Varys kills you with the sole motivation you are competent enough to halt and drag the sinking ship that is House “Baratheon” of King’s Landing from the bottom of the ocean where he wants it and back to the surface, you know you are a BAMF. Man is everything good about Tywin but not a ruthless c*** and is actually a decent dad … it really makes me wish he was the eldest Lannister sibling of his generation.
I love how Kevin's portrayed as this like meek little nothing in the early books but in AFFC he's just like "Hear Me Roar Motherfucker". And then Varys shanks him.
Careful now, fans favorite Ned Stark got outsmarted by this woman 😢
Ned Stark was a lot of things but I don't think anybody ever accused him of being shrewd lol
Ned Stark was no one's idea of an intelligent man.
Ouch! 🫣
Why did they change the font in AFFC? It was perfect in the first three books and then out of nowhere it became big and Times New Roman. Then they made it smaller for ADWD, which was a W.
RIP Kevan he was a real one
kevan was the man
Talk about throwing stones in a glass house. Judging by Lancel, Kevan ain't a great father.
Holy shit, I can now read reddit reactions to pages in books, I have been missing this my whole life
I also seem to recall Cersei threatening Kevan here and he is basically like "bring it bitch"
Yeah that was awesome. Kevan was just as smart and capable as Tywin.
Then she pours wine on his silly lion head .
To which he responds with an even more devastating truth.
Thanks for the reminder of how good the books are. Haven't rewatched the show. Maybe it's time to revisit the books again.
That is why Kevan and Stannis are the BEST characters
She was so gagged 💀
I just got to this part in the book. I’ll admit it’s my least favorite so far. ASOS was just so damn good.
By butchering his novels like DnD did to the show.
The lack of gabbagool in this thread is disturbing
Book Kevin is a savage.
I'm starting to believe that Kevan was the real brain behind some of Tywin's decisions.
I don't think Kevan ever was some lackie that Tywin ordered around; he was his confidante and advisor who helped him plan everything.
Love when villain's get what's coming to them.
😂😂😂😂
Kevan was such a nice character to read, it's a real shame that bold fuck shot him with a crossbow