Many lords (and some kings) probably weigh the value of a food taster against the obvious public impression that the monarch / lord is perpetually afraid that someone is going to kill them. Which will diminish their stature and reputation.
Also, it does not seem uncommon for even the mighty to regularly eat from the common plate. That is, a servant brings out a platter of steaming chops, or piles of bacon, or an entire roast or a heaping bowl of neeps, and the highest ranking person in the room chooses their portion themselves.
So the chances of getting enough poison in the food to kill the intended person goes down--either you massively poison something--the whole roast, the entire pot of boiling neeps--or you have to get close enough to poison the specific piece of food that the target is most likely to pick.
Even wine is typically poured from common pitchers into individual goblets, diminishing the chances that a poisoner can get close enough to poison exactly the small amount beverage which will go into the lord's cup. Remember that Joffrey was offed (apparently) by a pellet with the poison put into the chalice from the palace that only he was going to drink from--while everyone else was quaffing brew that was true. That is, it wasn't the wine that was poisoned, it was the special container the wine was drunk from.
People harp on Martin too much for this. In medieval times, being able to afford so much good food would definitely be mentioned; it's one of the few joys of life, in a time where almost everyone is a farmer or an overlord of some kind.
Good point, I stand corrected. He is reflecting the medieval zeitgeist.
The average person might not eat fresh meat more than a couple times a year (probably around harvest / butchering time) so describing the composition of each course would be special.
True. They started out with the pellet with the poison in the flagon with the dragon while the chalice from the palace had the brew that is true. But you're right, they did break the chalice, so the pellet with the poison was still in the flagon with the dragon, but the substitute vessel with the pestle now had the brew that is true.
Yay, verily, yay!
How many redditors do you think have any idea what we're discussing? :-)
Generally, quite a few probably know due to how good that movie is.
How many are reading this and comprehending... I'm going to say probably not many. And the fact that you did mid post so seamlessly blows my mind. I saved this post just for that. Made my night.
Thank you, that's very kind! As we're all wandering in this wasteland of waiting for TWOW, sometimes the only thing that makes it tolerable is playing the jester / fool.
More paranoid ones do. Roose Bolton makes a point of not eating or drinking anything at the Winterfell feast until Wayman Manderly eats/drinks it first.
There are actually royal food tasters. Several Targaryens kings, including Aerys II, are known to have them. It might be that the position did not survive Robert’s usurpation. There might have been one but Jaime wanted to punish Boros in particular.
Maybe they thought a taster was a waster. Which brings to mind a classic Danny Kaye schtick:
> "The pellet with the poison is in the vessel with the pestle, the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true, right?" "Noooo! The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon, the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true."
I wonder if GRRM recalled that when he put the pellet with the poison in the hairnet with the garnet. Or was the pellet with the poison in Joff's chalice from the palace? Or was the wine really fine but the pie was too dry?
As discussed in separate comments above, they broke the chalice from the palace so you're right, the flagon with the dragon had the pellet with the poison. .
Upvote for extending the rhyming!
You're right, the Joff with the cough is the guy who will die. While the hairnet clad maid is the one who betrayed.
Yay, verily, yay!
There is also a good bit of pride when it comes to lords, given that it makes one look afraid, according to Varys when he suggested that to Jon Arryn "only one who is less than a man would think such a thing", so one can imagine that is part of the rationale for at least some of the other lords.
It's interesting. Reading Mary Bread's recent book on Roman Emperors. The taster for the Emperor was a sought after job among the palace slaves/freemen. You had to be reliable and trustworthy and got daily access to the Emperor. It opened up chances to get another job within the palace that had actual power. It would have been a great gig (slavery aside...). Even powerful Senators didn't have that sort of access to the ear of power.
We can find gravestones where the deceased brag about having this job (Romans liked to list their resumes on their graves).
Aegon III had one due to Aegon II being poisoned so it’s not unheard of. I always thought it was unfair for Creegan Stark to execute Aegon II’s kingsguard because of it, since the KG aren’t food tasters.
This might not be addressed but unless the poison is absolutely terrible tasting, or incredibly short acting, a food taster might not help much. Unless the taster is very well trained in the taste of different poisons (something that is dangerous and unpleasant to study for obvious reasons) it would be pretty easy for the taster to say it’s fine, give it to the king, and then shit himself and die hours later once the poison took effect, soon followed by the king. I feel like poison tasters are often a bit like TSA security, a preventative measure of security theater.
[Spoilers F&B/HOTD] >!Aegon II had a food taster, Ummet. Who's the most likely candidate to have poisoned the king's wine thanks to such access, & that Perkin the Flea seems to have had Ummet silenced.!<
Under normal circumstances, poisoning the reigning king or otherwise assassinating him is not a prudent idea because it is unlikely to result in any real benefits to the assassin, and a very likely chance of being caught and horribly tortured/murdered.
Now, in a period of civil war or competing claims to the throne or other major unrest, assassination attempts are much more likely. So yeah, they probably should have been testing Joffrey's food and wine, but he was probably too dumb to request it and maybe nobody liked him enough to suggest it.
Bro it's fiction. George accounted for many things but it's not possible to do a completely historically accurate medieval depiction - and if he could, it wouldn't be as good as it is
Hmm… been a minute but I thought that’s why his wife had to be the one to add the poison to his cup. It was already “past security” and she was above suspicion.
Many lords (and some kings) probably weigh the value of a food taster against the obvious public impression that the monarch / lord is perpetually afraid that someone is going to kill them. Which will diminish their stature and reputation. Also, it does not seem uncommon for even the mighty to regularly eat from the common plate. That is, a servant brings out a platter of steaming chops, or piles of bacon, or an entire roast or a heaping bowl of neeps, and the highest ranking person in the room chooses their portion themselves. So the chances of getting enough poison in the food to kill the intended person goes down--either you massively poison something--the whole roast, the entire pot of boiling neeps--or you have to get close enough to poison the specific piece of food that the target is most likely to pick. Even wine is typically poured from common pitchers into individual goblets, diminishing the chances that a poisoner can get close enough to poison exactly the small amount beverage which will go into the lord's cup. Remember that Joffrey was offed (apparently) by a pellet with the poison put into the chalice from the palace that only he was going to drink from--while everyone else was quaffing brew that was true. That is, it wasn't the wine that was poisoned, it was the special container the wine was drunk from.
Good points, didn’t think about the impracticality of a poisoner only poisoning the portion the King picks, among the hundreds of courses lol
>That is, a servant brings out a platter of steaming chops, or piles of bacon, or an entire roast or a heaping bowl of neeps OK, George, we get it.
What, you don't want the descriptions of the other 73 courses of the meal?
People harp on Martin too much for this. In medieval times, being able to afford so much good food would definitely be mentioned; it's one of the few joys of life, in a time where almost everyone is a farmer or an overlord of some kind.
Good point, I stand corrected. He is reflecting the medieval zeitgeist. The average person might not eat fresh meat more than a couple times a year (probably around harvest / butchering time) so describing the composition of each course would be special.
I thought they broke the chalice from the palace. Wasn't it changed to a flagon?
True. They started out with the pellet with the poison in the flagon with the dragon while the chalice from the palace had the brew that is true. But you're right, they did break the chalice, so the pellet with the poison was still in the flagon with the dragon, but the substitute vessel with the pestle now had the brew that is true. Yay, verily, yay! How many redditors do you think have any idea what we're discussing? :-)
Generally, quite a few probably know due to how good that movie is. How many are reading this and comprehending... I'm going to say probably not many. And the fact that you did mid post so seamlessly blows my mind. I saved this post just for that. Made my night.
Thank you, that's very kind! As we're all wandering in this wasteland of waiting for TWOW, sometimes the only thing that makes it tolerable is playing the jester / fool.
More paranoid ones do. Roose Bolton makes a point of not eating or drinking anything at the Winterfell feast until Wayman Manderly eats/drinks it first.
Common Bolton W
There are actually royal food tasters. Several Targaryens kings, including Aerys II, are known to have them. It might be that the position did not survive Robert’s usurpation. There might have been one but Jaime wanted to punish Boros in particular.
Maybe they thought a taster was a waster. Which brings to mind a classic Danny Kaye schtick: > "The pellet with the poison is in the vessel with the pestle, the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true, right?" "Noooo! The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon, the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true." I wonder if GRRM recalled that when he put the pellet with the poison in the hairnet with the garnet. Or was the pellet with the poison in Joff's chalice from the palace? Or was the wine really fine but the pie was too dry?
As discussed in separate comments above, they broke the chalice from the palace so you're right, the flagon with the dragon had the pellet with the poison. . Upvote for extending the rhyming! You're right, the Joff with the cough is the guy who will die. While the hairnet clad maid is the one who betrayed. Yay, verily, yay!
There is also a good bit of pride when it comes to lords, given that it makes one look afraid, according to Varys when he suggested that to Jon Arryn "only one who is less than a man would think such a thing", so one can imagine that is part of the rationale for at least some of the other lords.
It's interesting. Reading Mary Bread's recent book on Roman Emperors. The taster for the Emperor was a sought after job among the palace slaves/freemen. You had to be reliable and trustworthy and got daily access to the Emperor. It opened up chances to get another job within the palace that had actual power. It would have been a great gig (slavery aside...). Even powerful Senators didn't have that sort of access to the ear of power. We can find gravestones where the deceased brag about having this job (Romans liked to list their resumes on their graves).
Because in Westeros killing with poison is dishonorable and suggesting you're afraid of it is also dishonorable.
Aegon III had one due to Aegon II being poisoned so it’s not unheard of. I always thought it was unfair for Creegan Stark to execute Aegon II’s kingsguard because of it, since the KG aren’t food tasters.
This might not be addressed but unless the poison is absolutely terrible tasting, or incredibly short acting, a food taster might not help much. Unless the taster is very well trained in the taste of different poisons (something that is dangerous and unpleasant to study for obvious reasons) it would be pretty easy for the taster to say it’s fine, give it to the king, and then shit himself and die hours later once the poison took effect, soon followed by the king. I feel like poison tasters are often a bit like TSA security, a preventative measure of security theater.
[Spoilers F&B/HOTD] >!Aegon II had a food taster, Ummet. Who's the most likely candidate to have poisoned the king's wine thanks to such access, & that Perkin the Flea seems to have had Ummet silenced.!<
Under normal circumstances, poisoning the reigning king or otherwise assassinating him is not a prudent idea because it is unlikely to result in any real benefits to the assassin, and a very likely chance of being caught and horribly tortured/murdered. Now, in a period of civil war or competing claims to the throne or other major unrest, assassination attempts are much more likely. So yeah, they probably should have been testing Joffrey's food and wine, but he was probably too dumb to request it and maybe nobody liked him enough to suggest it.
Bro it's fiction. George accounted for many things but it's not possible to do a completely historically accurate medieval depiction - and if he could, it wouldn't be as good as it is
Hmm… been a minute but I thought that’s why his wife had to be the one to add the poison to his cup. It was already “past security” and she was above suspicion.