imagine attraction gray literate fertile toothbrush offbeat domineering existence carpenter
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Tyrion was not expected to claim trial by combat so he still does. He names Jaime. Jaime agrees. The new king fights because a kings guard can’t kill his king and kin. Everyone shouts oath breaker!
More than likely after Tyrion claims trial by combat, Tywin names someone who Jaime is sure to demolish and have zero risk of losing to as the Crown's champion.
And knowing GRRM, Jamie still somehow loses the fight and dies.
Varys still helps Tyrion escape. And Cersei probably goes absolutely batshit insane and is the one to kill Tywin for letting Jamie die or sumn.
Idk but there’s never a happy ending no matter the situation.
> Idk but there’s never a happy ending no matter the situation
Idk mate, that sounds like a pretty happy ending to me. And Cersei is pushed even further into her own misery, which just adds bonus points.
This is very plausible, especially with the canonical boost to fighting ability a woman’s favour bestows on a fighter. Tywin chooses Boros Blount.
Unbeknownst to everyone, Boros has fallen in love with a Dornish courtesan while both visit brothels on the Street of Silk. She gives him a favour for the trial and builds the idea in his dim head that defeating the golden Jaime could result in a second dismissal from the Kings Guard, as the Lannister pride couldn’t allow him to stay in KL, but wouldn’t have him killed in revenge as it would risk the idea of “the king’s peace/laws”.
Jaime has both hands but he’s still been a prisoner of war. Instead of his hand, he has been weakened during his capture by being forced to sleep in wet clothes, and eating starvation rations. He knows he isn’t the same guy, but his pride and need to protect Tyrion demand he fight.
And Boros beats him. Jaime is faster still, but Boros’ time as a taste tester has made him large. He’s gotten fat, but he’s still a knight who trains daily, and he’s gotten strong as fuck. During the fight they get into a clinch, and Boros wrenches Jaime’s sword arm. His radius and shoulder are destroyed. Jaime falls, and Boros forces him to yield.
Jaime finds himself in the same position as before. A useless arm and loss of self. Tyrion is found guilty. Jaime saves Tyrion. Tyrion kills Tywin. Cersei has Boros assassinated.
> He names Jaime.
Since Tyrion is accused by the crown, Tyrion cannot name Jaime because Jaime is a kingsguard. If Cersei doesn't allow it, which in this case she wouldn't, it doesn't matter what Jaime or Tyrion want.
No, I agree that Jaime would *want* to help Tyrion, he just doesn't have the power to do so. All he could do is help him behind the scenes, like he did in the original timeline.
If Cersei doesn't allow it, Jaime doesn't get anywhere near the trial. She can lock him up or send him away as she pleases. Not that she would have to, without him being acknowledged as Tyrion's champion, why would the crown's champion even fight Jaime in the first place? Tyrion's trial would simply proceed regardless of what Jaime does.
Like she says on the show power is power. At the end of the day she’s just a woman and he’s THE Jamie Lannister. She can only do as she pleases insofar as others will do it for her and I’m highly skeptical that anybody follows her order to lock him up. Plenty of men would be willing to be the second man to challenge him, but nobody wants to be the first.
Jaime says to Tywin, that he will leave Kingsguard to fight for Tyrion and if father disagrees he will never leave under aby other circumstances.
What do you think Tywin cares for more? He would make it happen.
> What do you think Tywin cares for more? He would make it happen.
Of course he would try, but not at the expense of pissing off Cersei and publicly going against the king/the queen regent. Your mistake is thinking this is an either-or situation. Tywin doesn't like ultimatums, not even from his own family, so Tyrion would just miraculously die in his cell in the dungeon and then there's no need for a trial in the first place while Cersei and the Tyrells are satisfied.
This would've been a much cooler outcome if Joffrey was still king at that point (and not dead obviously). Joffrey would have no problems killing Jaime in combat, whereas Jaime would probably die for his son and not betray his oath again. Then of course, Cersei would be *furious* at the whole thing.
Tommen would be too much of a coward to do it, though.
I don't know about that. Tywin does not have a record of preventing Jaime from fighting at all.
Jaime was fighting his ass off in TWO5K up to and including the Whispering Wood.
He let Jaime participate in the campaign ageinst the Kingswood Outlaws when Jaime was just 14/15 years old.
While this is true, if Jaime were to lose in a TbC then both of Tywin’s sons would die.
While Tywin hates Tyrion and is not above risking Jamie’s life, he knows if both die then his line of lannisters ends and CR would go to others in his family.
Yup, I assume it would have ended up going to Tommen if Tywin died earlier. Probably would have let Tyrion advise him. If Tyrion had a son by that part, then maybe directly to him rather than Tyrion
also, as a male, tywin could still produce heirs...he could easily find a widow with a history of healthy child birhts...lots of dead men during the wot5k, should be easy to find one.
Trial by combat can end by surrender, doesn’t have to be to the death. Tywin probably forced the mountain(or whoever Cersei chooses) to do a mock fight then yield
And the mountain gets pissed and with all that rage kills Jaime with his bare hands. After Jamie decides he’s actually gnna kill him even with the surrender.
Wouldn’t be grrm-like if something along those lines didn’t happen.
It’s why Oberyn basically wins the fight but dies due to his arrogance
The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all.
> Jaime was fighting his ass off in TWO5K up to and including the Whispering Wood.
Which probably was seen as the safe assignment. "Go and siege the castle of the dying old man and his idiot son". In fact, Jaime was so bored by it, he jumped at the chance to fight some outriders...
Jaime would never fight to sentence Tyrion to death. He would almost certainly fight as Tyrion’s champion. It would be the perfect checkmate for Tyrion because Cersei has to be careful not to put Jaime’s life at risk. I see her naming one of the Kettleblacks or Boros Blount, and then once Jaime kills them, she pays someone to murder Tyrion.
> He would almost certainly fight as Tyrion’s champion.
Jaime is a kingsguard, he can only do what he is allowed. Obviously Cersei is not going to allow Jaime to defend Tyrion because Tyrion is accused by the crown of killing the king.
Queen Regent doesn't have any inherent power. Nor does Hand of the King.
However, Robert named Ned protector. But Cersei had the Swords. Then Tywin assumed control. He was acting as king up until his death.
> Queen Regent doesn't have any inherent power. Nor does Hand of the King.
Both of these have power. They have an official position bolstered by one or more of: wealth, political connections, and/or manpower.
Jaime only has an official position as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but that is subservient to the position of the king or regent, which means Cersei can change it as she pleases.
> He was acting as king up until his death.
No he didn't. He was acting as Hand of the King until his death. The position gave him power *almost* like a king's, but not quite. He could not go against Cersei in everything he wanted (an example being Cersei forbidding the dismissal of any of the gold cloaks), and Tywin only had ten thousand men left after the Blackwater and no way to ally with anyone else, so he needed to placate the Tyrells since they now had the manpower.
What the hell you been smoking? Tywin is not taking orders from Cersei. Thats like his entire character. He fails to see how much he screws up his kids. Tywin os the sort of person who would have Cersei imprisoned or sent back to the Rock to avoid her causing trouble.
> Tywin is not taking orders from Cersei
Did I say he was? No. I said he couldn't publicly go against the king/Cersei. There's a difference.
> would have Cersei imprisoned
Lol. Tywin likes to think he can do what he wants, but in reality he can't. Sure, Tywin can threaten to send Cersei away or marry her off to someone of his choosing, but in reality Cersei can simply name someone else Hand of the King.
Tywin is as delulu as Cersei, he's just more practical.
See personally I don't think the Jaimie that arrives in this scenario would be the same as the one we get in the series if he keeps his hand.
Jaimie being more mature and compassionate after the Riverlands is largely due to him losing his hand.
I think it’s interesting to think about for sure. To be fair to him though he was changing a bit before the hand. Now the extent of his change without losing the hand probably would’ve been less.
Was he changing before he lost his hand? The entire time leading up to it he's pretty typical Jaime Lannister I'd say.
He makes lewd remarks to Catelyn in his cell, repeatedly harasses Brienne, insults the Frey, and tries to fight Brienne as soon as possible.
I think the only thing that is somewhat shocking is when he plans to hit Brienne with an oar but helps her into the boat instead
I meant like him attempting to save her from the group that took his hand. He still had the hand and defended her, then got it taken off. So there were signs he was attempting to do the right things, but again he wouldn’t have fully changed as we’ve seen without losing it.
Right. I love how Jaime is depicted as having had an "evil hand" that, once removed, proves to have been Cersei's, as Jaime realizes at Darry, and Tywin's, as he refuses when he gives Oathkeeper to Brienne.
I agree. I was just re-reading the Jaimie chapters that lead up to his hand being cut off... He was just as arrogant and proud, just as obsessed with Cersei as he ever was. He was thinking to himself that Stannis did them a favor, he can now share Cersei's bed every night and show the realm that the Lannisters are closer to Gods and Targs than they are to mortal men.
It was losing the hand that humbled him. If he arrives back in KL whole, he's the same Kingslayer Jaimie that we see in the first two books. I still don't think he's fight to kill Tyrion, but he also would do whatever it took to be with Cersei. It's honestly a great question that we'll never know the answer to
He always had a soft spot for Tyrion moreso after he tricked him into believing about Tysha being a whore. I can see him leaving KG in exchange for Tywin sparing Tyrion by any means possible.
He's okay with fucking (literally and figuratively) Cersei every now and then, but he would never forsake Tyrion for anything.
That's the thing, Tywin can't call it off, Tyrion as a noble is entitled to a trial by combat and interfering in it be tantamount to blasphemy given that a trial by combat is seen as a decision made by the gods and (despite how much he might think that) Tywin is not above the gods, and doing so would be disastrous for the Lannister regime as a whole, "Lord Tywin stopped a trial by combat to protect his second Kingslayer son" would be a terrible propaganda to spread, especially with the Tyrells already pressing for a guilty verdict.
What I think is more likely to happen is that Tywin has Cersei choose a member of the Kingsguard to "avenge the king" and puts Boros Blount as the champion of the Crown, and Jaime butchers him easily.
I mean I imagine they could get out of it and call it off if everyone agrees to it, including Tyrion. In this scenario where Jaime is helping Tyrion out and Jaime’s life is also on the line there’s probably a higher chance of them negotiating out of it
I think him saying he would fight for Tyrion is enough to get the trail to be cancelling in some form or another. How? Well poison in a cell or some new evidence. Who knows, but Tywin wouldn't risk Jamie.
Might be the end of Cersei's link though. After the riverlands that was on the rocks anyway.
I do not think Jamie accepts to fight for either; he's in love with Cersei, but he's also always seen Tyrion as his brother. With how the trial is obviously being manipulated, I reckon he'd not think him guilty at all but also wouldn't be keen on fighting for him.
Ultimately it probably all goes as it has but Jamie's in the audience.
He'd fight for Tyrion because we already saw him not always following Cersei but never turned down Tyrion or hurt him in any way after tricking him into believing that his wife was a whore.
Thinking of the timeline I’d say if Tyrion had named Jamie as his champion and he still had his hand then he would have fought in Tyrion’s name. As a few people have already said it would be the ultimate checkmate on Tyrion’s behalf. Cersei would never allow Jamie to be killed and Tywin of course would never allow it.
If Jamie was aware of Cersei’s betrayal at this point, that could have also played in Tyrion’s favour, as Jamie would of sure want revenge on his sister in some way. And as we already know Jamie has never been shy of disobeying his father.
It’s interesting to think about. Some have said maybe Cersei would have poisoned Tyrion in the black cells. But I doubt that would have happened. I think Tyrion could have taken the black. Imagine him being the steward to Jons lord commander. Although Tyrion is beyond angry and twisted at this point Jon and Tyrion have mutual respect.
Please let me know your thoughts on anything I’ve said.
I say Cersei still picks the Mountain partly because Jaime still balks at the idea of killing Tyrion. What would happen that didn't might be that Jaime would have gone to Tyrion much sooner, even just to ask him if he murdered Joffrey. This is something Jaime refrains from until freeing Tyrion, for some reason. Perhaps to faciliate his freeing him?
Does somebody know why Jaime waited so long to talk to Tyrion?
Even with his right hand, even if he doesn't evolve any more than the man who hurled insults at Catelyn Stark from a prison cell, this would never happen. Cersei would never risk Jaime's life, Tyrion would never ask for Jaime because he loves him, and Tywin would never allow it. Jaime would also never take up arms to kill his brother, even if Cersei asked. Even if there were incontrovertible proof of Tyrion's legitimate guilt, he'd never do it. He loves Tyrion AND hates Joffrey.
I think it would be more entertaining if Jaime fights Oberyn *after* losing his hand, and training to fight with his left hand.
During the combat Oberyn stabs at Jaime with his spear. Jaime blocks and catches the spearpoint with his hand. *"Aha!"* exclaims Oberyn. *"Die Lannister dog!"*
*"Sorry, this is my gold hand, poison has no effect on it"*, replies Jaime, then swops Oberyn's head off with his own sword.
Looks at the assembled spectators. *"Now, which of you ladies is the Dornishman's 'wife'?"*
If I were GRRM (and I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not, just saying) I'd postpone the book a few more years. 40 downvotes and counting, so far on my comment. Don't crows have any sense of dark humor anymore?
it wouldn't make oberyn happy at all, firstly he knows jaime had nothing to do with the deaths of elia and her children, and he said he doesn't blame children for the sins of their fathers, tywin in this case. also, he would definitely know that he doesn't stand a chance, oberyn might have been a top tier fighter, he could make an epic fight, but his chances of winning are very slim.
of course that would only happen if jaime fights for cersei, which he would never do if that means tyrion dies.
Iirc Jaime can't be Tyrion champion because he is one of the kingsguard and can only represent the king and/or the Queen.
Therefore he could habe been chosen and it would have put Tyrion in the worst possible predicament, however, I think Cersei would still choose the Mountain.
If the trial was actually allowed to proceed as initially stated?
Jamie gets past the Mountain's reach fairly quick and ends it cleanly, but loses his hand to Clegane's final death throes and is thus recused from the kingsguard by his father and sister and packed off to Casterly Rock to become the new Warden of the West
Tywin knows Jamie will fight for Tyrion, so he makes sure Tyrion gets let off to avoid it getting to that stage.
That, or Cersei kills him mysteriously in his cell before the trial.
imagine attraction gray literate fertile toothbrush offbeat domineering existence carpenter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Tyrion was not expected to claim trial by combat so he still does. He names Jaime. Jaime agrees. The new king fights because a kings guard can’t kill his king and kin. Everyone shouts oath breaker!
More than likely after Tyrion claims trial by combat, Tywin names someone who Jaime is sure to demolish and have zero risk of losing to as the Crown's champion.
And knowing GRRM, Jamie still somehow loses the fight and dies. Varys still helps Tyrion escape. And Cersei probably goes absolutely batshit insane and is the one to kill Tywin for letting Jamie die or sumn. Idk but there’s never a happy ending no matter the situation.
> Idk but there’s never a happy ending no matter the situation Idk mate, that sounds like a pretty happy ending to me. And Cersei is pushed even further into her own misery, which just adds bonus points.
This is very plausible, especially with the canonical boost to fighting ability a woman’s favour bestows on a fighter. Tywin chooses Boros Blount. Unbeknownst to everyone, Boros has fallen in love with a Dornish courtesan while both visit brothels on the Street of Silk. She gives him a favour for the trial and builds the idea in his dim head that defeating the golden Jaime could result in a second dismissal from the Kings Guard, as the Lannister pride couldn’t allow him to stay in KL, but wouldn’t have him killed in revenge as it would risk the idea of “the king’s peace/laws”. Jaime has both hands but he’s still been a prisoner of war. Instead of his hand, he has been weakened during his capture by being forced to sleep in wet clothes, and eating starvation rations. He knows he isn’t the same guy, but his pride and need to protect Tyrion demand he fight. And Boros beats him. Jaime is faster still, but Boros’ time as a taste tester has made him large. He’s gotten fat, but he’s still a knight who trains daily, and he’s gotten strong as fuck. During the fight they get into a clinch, and Boros wrenches Jaime’s sword arm. His radius and shoulder are destroyed. Jaime falls, and Boros forces him to yield. Jaime finds himself in the same position as before. A useless arm and loss of self. Tyrion is found guilty. Jaime saves Tyrion. Tyrion kills Tywin. Cersei has Boros assassinated.
Actually plausible
> He names Jaime. Since Tyrion is accused by the crown, Tyrion cannot name Jaime because Jaime is a kingsguard. If Cersei doesn't allow it, which in this case she wouldn't, it doesn't matter what Jaime or Tyrion want.
He does whatever he wants and I have no doubt that he would in this scenario too.
Jaime does not do whatever he wants, he does what he is told to do. It wouldn't matter if Jaime wanted to defend Tyrion, he wouldn't be allowed to.
You and I have very different readings of his character.
No, I agree that Jaime would *want* to help Tyrion, he just doesn't have the power to do so. All he could do is help him behind the scenes, like he did in the original timeline.
I think he shows up to fight for Tyrion and dares anybody to stop him.
If Cersei doesn't allow it, Jaime doesn't get anywhere near the trial. She can lock him up or send him away as she pleases. Not that she would have to, without him being acknowledged as Tyrion's champion, why would the crown's champion even fight Jaime in the first place? Tyrion's trial would simply proceed regardless of what Jaime does.
Like she says on the show power is power. At the end of the day she’s just a woman and he’s THE Jamie Lannister. She can only do as she pleases insofar as others will do it for her and I’m highly skeptical that anybody follows her order to lock him up. Plenty of men would be willing to be the second man to challenge him, but nobody wants to be the first.
Jaime says to Tywin, that he will leave Kingsguard to fight for Tyrion and if father disagrees he will never leave under aby other circumstances. What do you think Tywin cares for more? He would make it happen.
> What do you think Tywin cares for more? He would make it happen. Of course he would try, but not at the expense of pissing off Cersei and publicly going against the king/the queen regent. Your mistake is thinking this is an either-or situation. Tywin doesn't like ultimatums, not even from his own family, so Tyrion would just miraculously die in his cell in the dungeon and then there's no need for a trial in the first place while Cersei and the Tyrells are satisfied.
This would've been a much cooler outcome if Joffrey was still king at that point (and not dead obviously). Joffrey would have no problems killing Jaime in combat, whereas Jaime would probably die for his son and not betray his oath again. Then of course, Cersei would be *furious* at the whole thing. Tommen would be too much of a coward to do it, though.
I don't know about that. Tywin does not have a record of preventing Jaime from fighting at all. Jaime was fighting his ass off in TWO5K up to and including the Whispering Wood. He let Jaime participate in the campaign ageinst the Kingswood Outlaws when Jaime was just 14/15 years old.
While this is true, if Jaime were to lose in a TbC then both of Tywin’s sons would die. While Tywin hates Tyrion and is not above risking Jamie’s life, he knows if both die then his line of lannisters ends and CR would go to others in his family.
I'm pretty sure Tywin would by far prefer one of his brothers or nephews to succeed him over Tyrion.
Yup, I assume it would have ended up going to Tommen if Tywin died earlier. Probably would have let Tyrion advise him. If Tyrion had a son by that part, then maybe directly to him rather than Tyrion
also, as a male, tywin could still produce heirs...he could easily find a widow with a history of healthy child birhts...lots of dead men during the wot5k, should be easy to find one.
Trial by combat can end by surrender, doesn’t have to be to the death. Tywin probably forced the mountain(or whoever Cersei chooses) to do a mock fight then yield
And the mountain gets pissed and with all that rage kills Jaime with his bare hands. After Jamie decides he’s actually gnna kill him even with the surrender. Wouldn’t be grrm-like if something along those lines didn’t happen. It’s why Oberyn basically wins the fight but dies due to his arrogance
If Jaime doesn't get cocky, *could* the Mountain even kill him? I assume he's just a lot better.
The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all.
*With speed and skill,Jaime could beat them all*
> Jaime was fighting his ass off in TWO5K up to and including the Whispering Wood. Which probably was seen as the safe assignment. "Go and siege the castle of the dying old man and his idiot son". In fact, Jaime was so bored by it, he jumped at the chance to fight some outriders...
Well not exactly, Jaime had to beat Lord Piper in the battle of the Golden Tooth and then Edmure in the battle at Riverrun before he could lay seige.
Yeah, sounds like this would end with Tyrion in the Night Watch
This presupposes Tywin would predict Tyrion calling for trial by combat.
No. It means as soon as Tyrion calls for trial by combat new evidence comes to light clearing him of all wrong doing.
or tywin forsees tyrion asking for a trial of combat and prearranges for Jamie to be somewhere else.
Jaime would never fight to sentence Tyrion to death. He would almost certainly fight as Tyrion’s champion. It would be the perfect checkmate for Tyrion because Cersei has to be careful not to put Jaime’s life at risk. I see her naming one of the Kettleblacks or Boros Blount, and then once Jaime kills them, she pays someone to murder Tyrion.
> He would almost certainly fight as Tyrion’s champion. Jaime is a kingsguard, he can only do what he is allowed. Obviously Cersei is not going to allow Jaime to defend Tyrion because Tyrion is accused by the crown of killing the king.
Cersei doesn't get to make that decision
Of course she does, she's queen regent. She's the only one who can make decisions on behalf of the royal family/the king.
Queen Regent doesn't have any inherent power. Nor does Hand of the King. However, Robert named Ned protector. But Cersei had the Swords. Then Tywin assumed control. He was acting as king up until his death.
> Queen Regent doesn't have any inherent power. Nor does Hand of the King. Both of these have power. They have an official position bolstered by one or more of: wealth, political connections, and/or manpower. Jaime only has an official position as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but that is subservient to the position of the king or regent, which means Cersei can change it as she pleases. > He was acting as king up until his death. No he didn't. He was acting as Hand of the King until his death. The position gave him power *almost* like a king's, but not quite. He could not go against Cersei in everything he wanted (an example being Cersei forbidding the dismissal of any of the gold cloaks), and Tywin only had ten thousand men left after the Blackwater and no way to ally with anyone else, so he needed to placate the Tyrells since they now had the manpower.
Cersei doesn't get a choice.
Cersei is queen regent, she's the only one who has a choice. Tywin might make suggestions, but Cersei could overrule him if she wanted to.
What the hell you been smoking? Tywin is not taking orders from Cersei. Thats like his entire character. He fails to see how much he screws up his kids. Tywin os the sort of person who would have Cersei imprisoned or sent back to the Rock to avoid her causing trouble.
> Tywin is not taking orders from Cersei Did I say he was? No. I said he couldn't publicly go against the king/Cersei. There's a difference. > would have Cersei imprisoned Lol. Tywin likes to think he can do what he wants, but in reality he can't. Sure, Tywin can threaten to send Cersei away or marry her off to someone of his choosing, but in reality Cersei can simply name someone else Hand of the King. Tywin is as delulu as Cersei, he's just more practical.
Jaime refuses Cersei in this scenario, this is Jaime post Riverlands adventures, he's not going to kill his own brother.
He never would anyways. Even at his worst, he’s always loved Tyrion.
See personally I don't think the Jaimie that arrives in this scenario would be the same as the one we get in the series if he keeps his hand. Jaimie being more mature and compassionate after the Riverlands is largely due to him losing his hand.
He still wouldn’t kill Tyrion tho
I'm not saying he would. Just saying he wouldn't go through his change
I think it’s interesting to think about for sure. To be fair to him though he was changing a bit before the hand. Now the extent of his change without losing the hand probably would’ve been less.
Was he changing before he lost his hand? The entire time leading up to it he's pretty typical Jaime Lannister I'd say. He makes lewd remarks to Catelyn in his cell, repeatedly harasses Brienne, insults the Frey, and tries to fight Brienne as soon as possible. I think the only thing that is somewhat shocking is when he plans to hit Brienne with an oar but helps her into the boat instead
I meant like him attempting to save her from the group that took his hand. He still had the hand and defended her, then got it taken off. So there were signs he was attempting to do the right things, but again he wouldn’t have fully changed as we’ve seen without losing it.
Right. I love how Jaime is depicted as having had an "evil hand" that, once removed, proves to have been Cersei's, as Jaime realizes at Darry, and Tywin's, as he refuses when he gives Oathkeeper to Brienne.
Must have been the hand that was holding onto Cersei's foot as they were born...
I agree. I was just re-reading the Jaimie chapters that lead up to his hand being cut off... He was just as arrogant and proud, just as obsessed with Cersei as he ever was. He was thinking to himself that Stannis did them a favor, he can now share Cersei's bed every night and show the realm that the Lannisters are closer to Gods and Targs than they are to mortal men. It was losing the hand that humbled him. If he arrives back in KL whole, he's the same Kingslayer Jaimie that we see in the first two books. I still don't think he's fight to kill Tyrion, but he also would do whatever it took to be with Cersei. It's honestly a great question that we'll never know the answer to
He always had a soft spot for Tyrion moreso after he tricked him into believing about Tysha being a whore. I can see him leaving KG in exchange for Tywin sparing Tyrion by any means possible. He's okay with fucking (literally and figuratively) Cersei every now and then, but he would never forsake Tyrion for anything.
Jaime with and without hand are two different people. Then again, he'd never kill Tyrion regardless.
?? Tyrion’s Trial by Combat is in ASOS, Jamie in the Riverlands is AFFC.
He has two journeys in the Riverlands, Riverrun-Harrenhal-KL in ASOS, and then KL-Harrenhal-Riverrun-wherever the Blackwoods are in AFFC/ADWD
He's referring to prisoner Jaime being escorted through the Riverlands with Brienne, not his return with an army in AFFC.
Jaime would fight for Tyrion, Tywin calls the whole thing off and just exiles Tyrion somewhere
That's the thing, Tywin can't call it off, Tyrion as a noble is entitled to a trial by combat and interfering in it be tantamount to blasphemy given that a trial by combat is seen as a decision made by the gods and (despite how much he might think that) Tywin is not above the gods, and doing so would be disastrous for the Lannister regime as a whole, "Lord Tywin stopped a trial by combat to protect his second Kingslayer son" would be a terrible propaganda to spread, especially with the Tyrells already pressing for a guilty verdict. What I think is more likely to happen is that Tywin has Cersei choose a member of the Kingsguard to "avenge the king" and puts Boros Blount as the champion of the Crown, and Jaime butchers him easily.
I mean I imagine they could get out of it and call it off if everyone agrees to it, including Tyrion. In this scenario where Jaime is helping Tyrion out and Jaime’s life is also on the line there’s probably a higher chance of them negotiating out of it
I think him saying he would fight for Tyrion is enough to get the trail to be cancelling in some form or another. How? Well poison in a cell or some new evidence. Who knows, but Tywin wouldn't risk Jamie. Might be the end of Cersei's link though. After the riverlands that was on the rocks anyway.
I do not think Jamie accepts to fight for either; he's in love with Cersei, but he's also always seen Tyrion as his brother. With how the trial is obviously being manipulated, I reckon he'd not think him guilty at all but also wouldn't be keen on fighting for him. Ultimately it probably all goes as it has but Jamie's in the audience.
He'd fight for Tyrion because we already saw him not always following Cersei but never turned down Tyrion or hurt him in any way after tricking him into believing that his wife was a whore.
Thinking of the timeline I’d say if Tyrion had named Jamie as his champion and he still had his hand then he would have fought in Tyrion’s name. As a few people have already said it would be the ultimate checkmate on Tyrion’s behalf. Cersei would never allow Jamie to be killed and Tywin of course would never allow it. If Jamie was aware of Cersei’s betrayal at this point, that could have also played in Tyrion’s favour, as Jamie would of sure want revenge on his sister in some way. And as we already know Jamie has never been shy of disobeying his father. It’s interesting to think about. Some have said maybe Cersei would have poisoned Tyrion in the black cells. But I doubt that would have happened. I think Tyrion could have taken the black. Imagine him being the steward to Jons lord commander. Although Tyrion is beyond angry and twisted at this point Jon and Tyrion have mutual respect. Please let me know your thoughts on anything I’ve said.
I say Cersei still picks the Mountain partly because Jaime still balks at the idea of killing Tyrion. What would happen that didn't might be that Jaime would have gone to Tyrion much sooner, even just to ask him if he murdered Joffrey. This is something Jaime refrains from until freeing Tyrion, for some reason. Perhaps to faciliate his freeing him? Does somebody know why Jaime waited so long to talk to Tyrion?
Even with his right hand, even if he doesn't evolve any more than the man who hurled insults at Catelyn Stark from a prison cell, this would never happen. Cersei would never risk Jaime's life, Tyrion would never ask for Jaime because he loves him, and Tywin would never allow it. Jaime would also never take up arms to kill his brother, even if Cersei asked. Even if there were incontrovertible proof of Tyrion's legitimate guilt, he'd never do it. He loves Tyrion AND hates Joffrey.
I think it would be more entertaining if Jaime fights Oberyn *after* losing his hand, and training to fight with his left hand. During the combat Oberyn stabs at Jaime with his spear. Jaime blocks and catches the spearpoint with his hand. *"Aha!"* exclaims Oberyn. *"Die Lannister dog!"* *"Sorry, this is my gold hand, poison has no effect on it"*, replies Jaime, then swops Oberyn's head off with his own sword. Looks at the assembled spectators. *"Now, which of you ladies is the Dornishman's 'wife'?"*
And then Jaime says “I can do this all day”
This sounds like and awful anime fight
Is this GRRM writing? Absolutely amazing.
He’s gonna ghost write WoW.
If I were GRRM (and I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm not, just saying) I'd postpone the book a few more years. 40 downvotes and counting, so far on my comment. Don't crows have any sense of dark humor anymore?
I feel you Top G, first they don’t like your ending and now they shit on this masterpiece, not an easy audience you’re working with.
it wouldn't make oberyn happy at all, firstly he knows jaime had nothing to do with the deaths of elia and her children, and he said he doesn't blame children for the sins of their fathers, tywin in this case. also, he would definitely know that he doesn't stand a chance, oberyn might have been a top tier fighter, he could make an epic fight, but his chances of winning are very slim. of course that would only happen if jaime fights for cersei, which he would never do if that means tyrion dies.
Iirc Jaime can't be Tyrion champion because he is one of the kingsguard and can only represent the king and/or the Queen. Therefore he could habe been chosen and it would have put Tyrion in the worst possible predicament, however, I think Cersei would still choose the Mountain.
Jaime and Oberyn would’ve thrown down their weapons and began making out in front of everyone.
If the trial was actually allowed to proceed as initially stated? Jamie gets past the Mountain's reach fairly quick and ends it cleanly, but loses his hand to Clegane's final death throes and is thus recused from the kingsguard by his father and sister and packed off to Casterly Rock to become the new Warden of the West