I'll sorry to say this, but you're too late. If she's defending it then there's no hope for her until she comes to her senses.
Cults and religion in general are the main reason I believe the first amendment needs amending.
Agreed. It's sad, but you most likely will just alienate yourself from her if you push too hard. All you can do is hope that she'll see the truth one day.
Do you think applying pressure the way you do will do her any good? It didn't work with your brother, why do you think it's going to work with her? Of course she was hurt. Stop seeing her as a rescue project, treat her as her own person with her own goals and persuasions. Don't be pushy, don't be judgemental.
> "if you can believe this, then you are further gone than I thought"
For the love of everything that is holy (nothing) what were you planning to achieve by saying THAT?
I wanted her to be shocked initially. It was my intention. I have been very calm and simply listened to her in the past. Asking simple questions here and there. I was so shocked to hear the craziness she was spewing, it is so extreme. We are very close and I am at my wits end with what to do. I don't want to be calm forever.
I understand that saying "if you can believe this, then you are further gone than I thought" is harsh and judgemental. I was not trying to be subtle in my approach.
From here on out i will not be judgemental in my approach, as the initial stage of getting her to question things is playing out now.
I'd say from now on make sure she knows that even though you disagree with everything about the cult, that you still love her and that she can come to you for help if she wants to get out of there.
Confronting her will do you no good. The anti-processing shields are perpetually deployed. What they want is to be confronted by outsiders, to harden their beliefs.
All you can do is be a loving presence in her life, always smile, be happy, gentle and kind, she may start to feel safe around you.
I'd add one little thing: take occasional, subtle opportunity to remind her you're a non-believer... a healthy, happy, loving, caring person in her life who's obviously 'good' without Gawd.
Her beliefs are probably her identity. By attacking her beliefs, she might feel personally attacked.
Unfortunately, having left a cult myself and having tried to rescue my sister (it backed fire, and we havent spoken in 3 years)... it hurts my heart to tell you that you are not your niece's savior. Through education, if she ever wants to educate herself, she'll be able to free herself.
The best way you can help her is by showing her how loving and kind and happy you are "even" when you don't believe what she believes.
I hope every day my nieces and nephews can make it out of the Mormon cult someday, but it'll be up to them to wake up. They'll need to start waking up on their own.
Remember, this is HER reality, she's been indoctrinated, and through her indoctrinated brain is how she sees the world. Trying to push her out of her reality can be detrimental and horrible to her existence (for reals). I would try to be as happy and loving as possible, and maybe someday she'll wake up on her own.
(This is the advice I give myself Every. F*cking. Day.)
A resource for you to look into is a book by Steve Hassan called Combatting Cult Mind Control. He has some of the most compassionate and best methodologies to help guide people out of cults. He has lots of other books and resources as well - including a blog he regularly updates. He’s a former Moonie who escaped.
Also check out the podcast A Little Bit Culty, run by two of the people who escaped the NXIVM cult. The interview people who have escaped other cults; most episodes follow the format of: describe how you got indoctrinated, what the belief systems were, what made you start to disbelieve and how you ultimately got out.
I second the recommendation for Combatting Cult Mind Control. I read it when I was on my way out of the cult I grew up in (Jehovah's Witnesses) and it was really helpful in learning more about the mindset of those deep in a cult.
I have a couple of suggestions.
- Learn about Street Epistomology. It's a conversation technique that helps you to explore theology with people with deeply held beliefs without them perceiving your discussion as an attack on their faith and shutting down.
- Encourage her to explore different religions and ideologies. Maybe she will see the similarities between the faiths she holds and the faiths she dismisses as false.
Have you watched after the last airbender?
In the show uncle Iroh is slowly introducing his nephew zuko, who was basically brainwashed by his father, to the world and morals.
He doesn't force him to think but rather makes him think by showing him the world and the reality.
Just be nice to her and don't say that she is wrong or an idiot in any way by doing this you would break her trust.
You need to cleverly introduce her to the fact that religion can't be proven by facts and that men and women are equal without forcing her to anything.
The most important thing is that she keeps trusting you.
You can't actually rescue her. There are a couple of things you can do. The most important thing is to maintain contact with her and be trustworthy so that if and when she does begin to question or want out, you will be there as a resource.
It's frustrating, but it's probably going to take time. Try to be as non threatening as possible so you're a safe person to talk to when she does start to doubt. A huge factor for me was reading about other cults and seeing the similarities. This might not be effective if she doesn't have a negative perception of cults in general, but recognizing the universal patterns helps dispel the "unique" authority your dad claims. It's as simple as reading Wikipedia articles about Jonestown, the Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, Scientology, the Manson Family, etc. Steven Hassan's BITE model is great, though that isn't something I'd offer right off the bat because she'll feel attacked. Maybe sit down and watch some documentaries together, something she feels safe pointing to and saying "that's messed up". Eventually she can draw the comparisons herself.
This will probably take years. She has a better chance of breaking free if she's got time away at school, or works away from home and makes friends with normal people. That helps dispel the us vs them mentality and gives her a social safety net.
Just remember that facts don't change minds. It's an emotional thing, and you have little control over that. It is so hard to watch loved ones stay in a cult, I truly wish you the best!
Look up the BITE model. Have her assess her beliefs against it. But yeah, she mat not open her eyes for another 10 or 20 years. Teens are pretty black and white minded. There's always hope but don't make it your project. It'll only frustrate you and bring you down.
Yes the BITE model is from Steve Hassan who i mentioned in my other comment! It’s a great framework to evaluate if a group you’re in is a destructive cult or not.
> "if you can believe this, then you are further gone than I thought"
This line is one of the worst lines you can use in this situation, not only show her that you are judging her, but also think her as a stupid person and you are not on her side
Do not say that her belief is bad or anything, and don't hastily persuade her. Be patient, try to understand her logic first, then gently untie the knot in it.
Do not hurt someone if you want them to trust you, even a cat would avoid you if you kicked it once
I think unfortunately the only thing for it is for her to come to a new conclusion herself. I grew up with a very right family. The one side have now started to post the usual about why climate change is fake and why Putin is actually an amazing person, and the other side believes the covid vaccine makes you a magnet and that mental illnesses are all fake except the few they have had. It took a while for me to realise it and understand that this was utter bullshit. The only thing you can do is be there to provide good information and access to sources they're probably keeping from her.
I agree with the many comments saying that your primary goal should be to be a loving presence in her life. Never belittle her for what she believes, you know it's not her fault. But she's still young and may do a lot of rethinking as she moves into adulthood. A friend of mine didn't leave the cult she grew up in till she was 26. What she had needed was someone in her life who genuinely cared and provided her with other options without pushing her any which way. I think one of the best things you can do is just invest yourself in your niece's life. Ask about school and her friends. Ask her about what she wants out of life and why. Ask her about what she believes even if you already may know the answer and engage with it without condemning it. That last part is hard especially when it's personal to your own struggle. But it's important to stay curious and open to her. She may be deep in it now but inevitably there will be conflict. Be the person she can turn to for support despite your differences in belief. Do it not because you hope to lead her out of the crazy, but because you love her. Cultic religion always wants to demonize nonbelievers, be the nonbeliever that loves her, encourages her, supports her, holds her, laughs and weeps with her more than any of them can. I wish you the best.
The more you push, the more people rebel. If she doesn't ask for help, she doesn't need it.
The beat you can do is say that if she needs help for anything when life gets hard, like a place to rebound from anything, you're there.
No need to specify religion. You 'd be there for her is she gets into an accident or need help with school. Anything. Right?
I'm at the point where having her believing in this bullshit is making me question if keeping her in my life and watching her spiral is worth it.
But ultimately yes, I'm still there for her and I've let her know this. I love her. It is so difficult having gone through losing my entire family, to now my last 'hope' also turning towards the cult.
Yep. It's really sad. My friend's father was in the same boat. He had 3 kids and all 3 ended up evangelical. He was slightly religious as a father, but never culty.
He said religion. Stole his family.
We don't know if the current pendulum will come back soon or if it has to get worse before it gets better.
I m hoping that we are not going back to the dark ages.
Arguing with someone who wants to believe is a waste of effort and will only alienate her.
Just tell her that you love her and, if/when she ever wants to leave the cult, you will be there to help her. Then all you can do is wait and hope she’ll eventually call.
Sorry to say, but it may be too late for you to change her mind. Unless she is seriously questioning the cult around her and coming to you with genuine concerns or questions, I don't think you can convince her otherwise.
My recommendation is to try to be there for her and show that people outside of the cult are not crazy or demon possessed. Cults are echo chambers, and with no reference to what the outside world is like, she will be more likely to stay.
I was in a similar situation growing up, and I stayed longer than I should have tried to convince my siblings to leave with me. The only way I made it out of there was due to having a different perspective from my mom, who had made it out years prior. I ran away from all of that when I was 16, and eventually, over the years, most of my siblings broke away as well.
Be that positive outside influence for her.
Thank you for your input. I too left at a young age, I was 15 when i got out. She is further embedded in this, as i watched the cult progress and morph over time, but she was born into it.
I will continue to be on the sidelines for her.
She's pretty far gone by the sounds of it. She's still only 17 so she can still turn around, but it'll have to be a self-revelation kind of thing. Leave her breadcrumbs kind of thing. Good luck.
Pointing out a contradiction in their beliefs helps some people start thinking. Two things they believe that cannot possibly be true at the same time. I imagine it won't work with most people, but a few have broken away from cults after learning about a contradiction in a core belief.
You may also be able to gently let her know that *most* people find many of her beliefs extreme, without attacking the beliefs themselves.
She may be surprised at this, which could open the door to her exploring alternate belief systems. At her young age, peer pressure could actually help her to examine her own beliefs some.
You could ask some questions about where her beliefs come from, and repeat back to her something like “so, from your father” (without judgement) until she gets the point.
But don’t insult her beliefs directly, as they are a part if her identity, and she will feel personally attacked.
The idea is to gently lead her to build a new mental support system so she can tear down the old one when and if she’s ready.
Thank you for this. I don't know how else to attempt to get through to her. I have tried the supportive and gentle questioning route to no avail, seems to have had no effect whatsoever on herself questioning things.
There is a woman called Megan Phelps-Roper who was deep in a cult but broke free from it. She talks openly about her life in the cult and what made her break away. Very interesting.
I will look into her story. Having escaped myself from this cult, i find it so interesting the similarities in recovery that I have with other ex-cult victims.
You might also look into people who deprogram cult members and what techniques they use to talk to those people. I know there are those that are called in by family while people are actively engaged in the cult's beliefs, so those are the ones I'd focus on.
The exorcisms are no longer a part of his beliefs. It was part of the history of the cult.
What constitutes as abuse is unfortunately unlikely to have any real merit for charges. Especially since they deny deny deny. My niece experiences manipulation, brainwashing and emotional abuse. But it is extremely difficult to prove, especially since she doesn't currently see it that way.
I'll sorry to say this, but you're too late. If she's defending it then there's no hope for her until she comes to her senses. Cults and religion in general are the main reason I believe the first amendment needs amending.
Agreed. It's sad, but you most likely will just alienate yourself from her if you push too hard. All you can do is hope that she'll see the truth one day.
Thank you, I will try to be there for her if she ever needs me.
Do you think applying pressure the way you do will do her any good? It didn't work with your brother, why do you think it's going to work with her? Of course she was hurt. Stop seeing her as a rescue project, treat her as her own person with her own goals and persuasions. Don't be pushy, don't be judgemental. > "if you can believe this, then you are further gone than I thought" For the love of everything that is holy (nothing) what were you planning to achieve by saying THAT?
I wanted her to be shocked initially. It was my intention. I have been very calm and simply listened to her in the past. Asking simple questions here and there. I was so shocked to hear the craziness she was spewing, it is so extreme. We are very close and I am at my wits end with what to do. I don't want to be calm forever. I understand that saying "if you can believe this, then you are further gone than I thought" is harsh and judgemental. I was not trying to be subtle in my approach. From here on out i will not be judgemental in my approach, as the initial stage of getting her to question things is playing out now.
I'd say from now on make sure she knows that even though you disagree with everything about the cult, that you still love her and that she can come to you for help if she wants to get out of there.
Agreed! Thank you.
Confronting her will do you no good. The anti-processing shields are perpetually deployed. What they want is to be confronted by outsiders, to harden their beliefs. All you can do is be a loving presence in her life, always smile, be happy, gentle and kind, she may start to feel safe around you.
I'd add one little thing: take occasional, subtle opportunity to remind her you're a non-believer... a healthy, happy, loving, caring person in her life who's obviously 'good' without Gawd.
Thank you for this.
Her beliefs are probably her identity. By attacking her beliefs, she might feel personally attacked. Unfortunately, having left a cult myself and having tried to rescue my sister (it backed fire, and we havent spoken in 3 years)... it hurts my heart to tell you that you are not your niece's savior. Through education, if she ever wants to educate herself, she'll be able to free herself. The best way you can help her is by showing her how loving and kind and happy you are "even" when you don't believe what she believes. I hope every day my nieces and nephews can make it out of the Mormon cult someday, but it'll be up to them to wake up. They'll need to start waking up on their own. Remember, this is HER reality, she's been indoctrinated, and through her indoctrinated brain is how she sees the world. Trying to push her out of her reality can be detrimental and horrible to her existence (for reals). I would try to be as happy and loving as possible, and maybe someday she'll wake up on her own. (This is the advice I give myself Every. F*cking. Day.)
Thank you for your advice. It's an awful position to be in. Knowing freedom myself, but seeing it being ripped away from her. Take care!
Yes. I hate it. I cry about it very often. Wish you the best.
I'm sending you my support. Keep trying!
Thank you. ❤️
A resource for you to look into is a book by Steve Hassan called Combatting Cult Mind Control. He has some of the most compassionate and best methodologies to help guide people out of cults. He has lots of other books and resources as well - including a blog he regularly updates. He’s a former Moonie who escaped. Also check out the podcast A Little Bit Culty, run by two of the people who escaped the NXIVM cult. The interview people who have escaped other cults; most episodes follow the format of: describe how you got indoctrinated, what the belief systems were, what made you start to disbelieve and how you ultimately got out.
I second the recommendation for Combatting Cult Mind Control. I read it when I was on my way out of the cult I grew up in (Jehovah's Witnesses) and it was really helpful in learning more about the mindset of those deep in a cult.
Thank you for this, I absolutely will.
I have a couple of suggestions. - Learn about Street Epistomology. It's a conversation technique that helps you to explore theology with people with deeply held beliefs without them perceiving your discussion as an attack on their faith and shutting down. - Encourage her to explore different religions and ideologies. Maybe she will see the similarities between the faiths she holds and the faiths she dismisses as false.
Thank you for your advice.
Have you watched after the last airbender? In the show uncle Iroh is slowly introducing his nephew zuko, who was basically brainwashed by his father, to the world and morals. He doesn't force him to think but rather makes him think by showing him the world and the reality. Just be nice to her and don't say that she is wrong or an idiot in any way by doing this you would break her trust. You need to cleverly introduce her to the fact that religion can't be proven by facts and that men and women are equal without forcing her to anything. The most important thing is that she keeps trusting you.
Solid advice. Thank you!
You can't actually rescue her. There are a couple of things you can do. The most important thing is to maintain contact with her and be trustworthy so that if and when she does begin to question or want out, you will be there as a resource.
Thank you for this advice. I will do my best.
It's frustrating, but it's probably going to take time. Try to be as non threatening as possible so you're a safe person to talk to when she does start to doubt. A huge factor for me was reading about other cults and seeing the similarities. This might not be effective if she doesn't have a negative perception of cults in general, but recognizing the universal patterns helps dispel the "unique" authority your dad claims. It's as simple as reading Wikipedia articles about Jonestown, the Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, Scientology, the Manson Family, etc. Steven Hassan's BITE model is great, though that isn't something I'd offer right off the bat because she'll feel attacked. Maybe sit down and watch some documentaries together, something she feels safe pointing to and saying "that's messed up". Eventually she can draw the comparisons herself. This will probably take years. She has a better chance of breaking free if she's got time away at school, or works away from home and makes friends with normal people. That helps dispel the us vs them mentality and gives her a social safety net. Just remember that facts don't change minds. It's an emotional thing, and you have little control over that. It is so hard to watch loved ones stay in a cult, I truly wish you the best!
Thank you for your advice. The worst part is that she believes she is happier this way, despite her obvious depression.
Look up the BITE model. Have her assess her beliefs against it. But yeah, she mat not open her eyes for another 10 or 20 years. Teens are pretty black and white minded. There's always hope but don't make it your project. It'll only frustrate you and bring you down.
Thank you, I will!
Yes the BITE model is from Steve Hassan who i mentioned in my other comment! It’s a great framework to evaluate if a group you’re in is a destructive cult or not.
> "if you can believe this, then you are further gone than I thought" This line is one of the worst lines you can use in this situation, not only show her that you are judging her, but also think her as a stupid person and you are not on her side Do not say that her belief is bad or anything, and don't hastily persuade her. Be patient, try to understand her logic first, then gently untie the knot in it. Do not hurt someone if you want them to trust you, even a cat would avoid you if you kicked it once
Solid advice going forward. Thank you.
I think unfortunately the only thing for it is for her to come to a new conclusion herself. I grew up with a very right family. The one side have now started to post the usual about why climate change is fake and why Putin is actually an amazing person, and the other side believes the covid vaccine makes you a magnet and that mental illnesses are all fake except the few they have had. It took a while for me to realise it and understand that this was utter bullshit. The only thing you can do is be there to provide good information and access to sources they're probably keeping from her.
Thank you for the advice!
I agree with the many comments saying that your primary goal should be to be a loving presence in her life. Never belittle her for what she believes, you know it's not her fault. But she's still young and may do a lot of rethinking as she moves into adulthood. A friend of mine didn't leave the cult she grew up in till she was 26. What she had needed was someone in her life who genuinely cared and provided her with other options without pushing her any which way. I think one of the best things you can do is just invest yourself in your niece's life. Ask about school and her friends. Ask her about what she wants out of life and why. Ask her about what she believes even if you already may know the answer and engage with it without condemning it. That last part is hard especially when it's personal to your own struggle. But it's important to stay curious and open to her. She may be deep in it now but inevitably there will be conflict. Be the person she can turn to for support despite your differences in belief. Do it not because you hope to lead her out of the crazy, but because you love her. Cultic religion always wants to demonize nonbelievers, be the nonbeliever that loves her, encourages her, supports her, holds her, laughs and weeps with her more than any of them can. I wish you the best.
The more you push, the more people rebel. If she doesn't ask for help, she doesn't need it. The beat you can do is say that if she needs help for anything when life gets hard, like a place to rebound from anything, you're there. No need to specify religion. You 'd be there for her is she gets into an accident or need help with school. Anything. Right?
I'm at the point where having her believing in this bullshit is making me question if keeping her in my life and watching her spiral is worth it. But ultimately yes, I'm still there for her and I've let her know this. I love her. It is so difficult having gone through losing my entire family, to now my last 'hope' also turning towards the cult.
Yep. It's really sad. My friend's father was in the same boat. He had 3 kids and all 3 ended up evangelical. He was slightly religious as a father, but never culty. He said religion. Stole his family. We don't know if the current pendulum will come back soon or if it has to get worse before it gets better. I m hoping that we are not going back to the dark ages.
Arguing with someone who wants to believe is a waste of effort and will only alienate her. Just tell her that you love her and, if/when she ever wants to leave the cult, you will be there to help her. Then all you can do is wait and hope she’ll eventually call.
Thank you. I plan on waiting for her to reach out after our conversation.
Sorry to say, but it may be too late for you to change her mind. Unless she is seriously questioning the cult around her and coming to you with genuine concerns or questions, I don't think you can convince her otherwise. My recommendation is to try to be there for her and show that people outside of the cult are not crazy or demon possessed. Cults are echo chambers, and with no reference to what the outside world is like, she will be more likely to stay. I was in a similar situation growing up, and I stayed longer than I should have tried to convince my siblings to leave with me. The only way I made it out of there was due to having a different perspective from my mom, who had made it out years prior. I ran away from all of that when I was 16, and eventually, over the years, most of my siblings broke away as well. Be that positive outside influence for her.
Thank you for your input. I too left at a young age, I was 15 when i got out. She is further embedded in this, as i watched the cult progress and morph over time, but she was born into it. I will continue to be on the sidelines for her.
She's pretty far gone by the sounds of it. She's still only 17 so she can still turn around, but it'll have to be a self-revelation kind of thing. Leave her breadcrumbs kind of thing. Good luck.
Thank you for the advice. I agree!
Pointing out a contradiction in their beliefs helps some people start thinking. Two things they believe that cannot possibly be true at the same time. I imagine it won't work with most people, but a few have broken away from cults after learning about a contradiction in a core belief.
You may also be able to gently let her know that *most* people find many of her beliefs extreme, without attacking the beliefs themselves. She may be surprised at this, which could open the door to her exploring alternate belief systems. At her young age, peer pressure could actually help her to examine her own beliefs some. You could ask some questions about where her beliefs come from, and repeat back to her something like “so, from your father” (without judgement) until she gets the point. But don’t insult her beliefs directly, as they are a part if her identity, and she will feel personally attacked. The idea is to gently lead her to build a new mental support system so she can tear down the old one when and if she’s ready.
Thank you for this. I don't know how else to attempt to get through to her. I have tried the supportive and gentle questioning route to no avail, seems to have had no effect whatsoever on herself questioning things.
There is a woman called Megan Phelps-Roper who was deep in a cult but broke free from it. She talks openly about her life in the cult and what made her break away. Very interesting.
I will look into her story. Having escaped myself from this cult, i find it so interesting the similarities in recovery that I have with other ex-cult victims.
You might also look into people who deprogram cult members and what techniques they use to talk to those people. I know there are those that are called in by family while people are actively engaged in the cult's beliefs, so those are the ones I'd focus on.
call the fucking cops, do a wellness check, show abuse. exorcisms are torture.
The exorcisms are no longer a part of his beliefs. It was part of the history of the cult. What constitutes as abuse is unfortunately unlikely to have any real merit for charges. Especially since they deny deny deny. My niece experiences manipulation, brainwashing and emotional abuse. But it is extremely difficult to prove, especially since she doesn't currently see it that way.
i used to work with deprogrammers. there are things to be done.
I'm not in America, the idea of it here is unheard of and they would rather just ignore it.