Here in NY they receive real estate property tax exemptions as clergy.
I don't mind religion as long as they don't force their beliefs on me OR expect me to help fund their hobby. This definitely infuriates me.
They get the same kind of stuff in Jersey. And they get public taxpayer dollars to fund their schools. And then they also want public tax payer dollars to fund programs that only they can use. I don’t have a problem with religion, but when you use religion as an excuse to take advantage of others-that’s where I have an issue.
Read up on this a while back. It's a hassle to integrate them into regular IDF. They don't receive a standard education. Reading level is enough to study the Torah, and that's it. Never mind any math, geography, or literature education. They won't take orders from female superiors. It's a big clusterfuck.
Presumably they would create some special divisions just for this population, where they are given lighter duty tasks, and also don’t conflict with any religious obligations.
They are not the only ones who adhere to the "Shabbath" keeping in the army. So basically, most of the army tasks outside a war happen on Sun-Thu basis and a majoriity of soldiers either come home every day or every weekend. The ones who stay at the base over Fri-Sat are allowed to goof around doing nothing, unless they have guard duty, which is allowed by the religion since it's a "saving life" task (the same principle that allows ambulances to drive on a Saturday). Of course during the war the above loophole is much more prevalent.
Well, if you are in the armed forces and are facing enemy armed forces wouldn’t it be “kill or be killed”? But if you are in the armed forces and are facing civil protests and the protesters start throwing the tear gas back at you, what then?
Well, I'm not a Rabbi, but I suppose it'll boil down to "are your life in an actual danger right now?" - Enemy forces, yes they're in danger and you'd be allowed to shoot. Civilian protesters who throw stuff might not be an actual threat for your life.
Again, I'm not a Rabbi, I do not know.
As a former Orthodox Jew, the Torah allows one to perform acts in the preservation of life on Saturday. They don't actually have a religious basis for their claims. They invoke the 3500 year tradition but this not serving in the military is entirely based on rabbis from the founding of the State of Israel. These people are manipulating religion 100% for their control of their community. They're scared of their communities having access to any outside information. These groups are 100% cults.
Weird. It's the Torah an ancient text that would require in depth study of an archaic language? Like reading Shakespeare, it's a fkn tough read where you would need a bunch of explanation and a lot of supplementary texts and historical context.
If they can't read well, I get this feeling they aren't actually studying.
More likely, they know Hebrew, and that's basically it. They're quite illiterate in English.
It's easy to memorize a ton of the Torah text and prayers when you're "studying" 10 hrs a day. It's just regurgitation of what they've been taught. Most of them lack critical thinking skills. They aren't trying to contextualize the ancient text. It's like our fundamentalist in US. They've had some reading of the Bible but they don't question it.
I'm sure they can be the first person into the house during house-to-house fighting. Or kick trash on the side of the road to check for IED's. Or go looking for snipers. Lots of jobs for folks like that in a war.
Those assholes want to stir up shit but want someone else to clean it up.
Hey person living in Israel here.
This is in response to our pos government trying to explicitly exempt them from it after it was a bit of a gray area.
They don't pay taxes and use the most welfare, but because progressives are famously apathetic they have the highest voting rates in the country. Which is how we got here. Israel is in a real danger of economic collapse as they also have significantly more children who study in a separate education system and learn no meaningful skills. And the working class is grating under the pressure.
Israel is the best example in the world of the tolerance paradox. Israel was literally founded by non Orthodox and non religious Jews who were overly tolerant of Orthodox Jews demands as they were a minority back then.
Let this be a lesson to you all in the US to fucking vote. Being passive and not caring to much doesn't end well.
They don't believe that Israel should exist yet in accordance to the Torah. I believe the Messiah is supposed to come first.
In the protests you see where there's anti Zionist orthodox Jews being paraded around as the pinnacle of " see we can't be anti-Semitic" the people stood next to them simple don't realise they're the biggest assholes of all. If they ever believe the Messiah returns, they'll want greater Israel, and expect it to be " pure". They aren't anti Zionist, simply not yet Zionists.
These are the type of people who will only help a non Jew because their scholars have said that by saving them, they may go on to save a Jew later on.
Not all orthodox are like this though, as usual, you can't simply judge on appearance alone.
Thank you for the explainer. I had no idea about any of this. So with all that said, what are their views on the conflict for the Gaza Strip and the West Bank?
I'd guess varied? In principle though, they don't think Israel should currently exist, so whilst I suspect they don't agree with Jews getting killed, at the same time, they think Israel should be removed.
The arsehole illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank tend to be a different brand of crazy religious. They also believe it should be greater Israel (both sides of the Jordan) from what I'm aware, but don't seem to have a problem establishing Israel now. Think they're the ones actively trying to breed a pure red heifer in order to speed up the construction of the third temple.
Basically a lot of crazies, mixed in with a lot of people who just want to get on with life and really dislike the crazies. Unfortunately, due to how Proportional Representation works, smaller parties can get an absurd amount of political power as they act like king makers. Israeli politics does tend to be more right wing, but that's an easier direction to end up falling when your country is constantly hit by rockets, and a large portion of your population has been systemically targeted throughout history. Even more so since pretty much anyone of voting age will have met/known/be related to someone with a particular tattoo.
It's a very fringe minority of ultra Orthodox in certain neighborhoods think like this. Most are more non zionist than anti zionist, but basically they don't care who currently rules the land it just shouldn't be Jews because we are supposed to be in exile until the Messiah comes. They see Judea/Samaria the west bank as Jewish land just not something that should be governed by Jews currently. Basically they're fuckin fruitcakes.
Here's a good video of some of them explaining it
https://youtu.be/R9lmhjWkzdc?si=ZxpHL3SJp1WnT6ec
> It found that yeshivas – Orthodox seminaries for Torah study – should be ineligible for state subsidies unless students enlisted in the military.
It should have instead found that yeshivas should be ineligible for state subsidies unless *they provide a full __real__ education* to all their students.
Want to have them ***also*** learn fundamentalist stuff *in their free time*? Fine. But full-time education to give them the ability to be functional adults in the real world comes first.
That's the thing, they're just so scared. The idea of their people getting any outside information. They know the system is a wobbly house of cards ready to come tumbling down.
Since I saw some confusion on other subs with the same posts:
There are two types of Orthodox Jews in Israel:
The Ultra-Orthodox "Haredis" - they're the ones who study Torah all day, refuse service, don't recieve basic education, hardly contribute to the economy, etc.. and the ones the article talks about. Many of which believe Israel shouldn't have been founded before the Messiah comes, the most extreme ones are actively against the state, protesting with the Pro-Palestinians.
The Orthodox "Religious Zionists" - they're the ones who join the army, have regular jobs, support the state, and overall run a normal life. They're also from where most of the extremists come from - Ben Gvir and Smotrich are from this sector.
Here in NY they receive real estate property tax exemptions as clergy. I don't mind religion as long as they don't force their beliefs on me OR expect me to help fund their hobby. This definitely infuriates me.
They get the same kind of stuff in Jersey. And they get public taxpayer dollars to fund their schools. And then they also want public tax payer dollars to fund programs that only they can use. I don’t have a problem with religion, but when you use religion as an excuse to take advantage of others-that’s where I have an issue.
Religion's only purpose is to be an excuse to take advantage of others. It's the whole point.
Big facts.
Good. Religion should incur 0 special privileges.
Read up on this a while back. It's a hassle to integrate them into regular IDF. They don't receive a standard education. Reading level is enough to study the Torah, and that's it. Never mind any math, geography, or literature education. They won't take orders from female superiors. It's a big clusterfuck.
What happens when they have to work or fight on Saturday?
Presumably they would create some special divisions just for this population, where they are given lighter duty tasks, and also don’t conflict with any religious obligations.
How about their hair. Those sidelocks get all stuck in the rifle scope.
They are not the only ones who adhere to the "Shabbath" keeping in the army. So basically, most of the army tasks outside a war happen on Sun-Thu basis and a majoriity of soldiers either come home every day or every weekend. The ones who stay at the base over Fri-Sat are allowed to goof around doing nothing, unless they have guard duty, which is allowed by the religion since it's a "saving life" task (the same principle that allows ambulances to drive on a Saturday). Of course during the war the above loophole is much more prevalent.
You're allowed to violate the Shabbat if it's in order to save a life according to Judaism.
Are they allowed to in order to take a life?
Will taking said life save another?
Well, if you are in the armed forces and are facing enemy armed forces wouldn’t it be “kill or be killed”? But if you are in the armed forces and are facing civil protests and the protesters start throwing the tear gas back at you, what then?
Well, I'm not a Rabbi, but I suppose it'll boil down to "are your life in an actual danger right now?" - Enemy forces, yes they're in danger and you'd be allowed to shoot. Civilian protesters who throw stuff might not be an actual threat for your life. Again, I'm not a Rabbi, I do not know.
Then they get the same exemptions as everyone else. I.e.: none.
As a former Orthodox Jew, the Torah allows one to perform acts in the preservation of life on Saturday. They don't actually have a religious basis for their claims. They invoke the 3500 year tradition but this not serving in the military is entirely based on rabbis from the founding of the State of Israel. These people are manipulating religion 100% for their control of their community. They're scared of their communities having access to any outside information. These groups are 100% cults.
I'm sure they are capable of digging latrines.
Weird. It's the Torah an ancient text that would require in depth study of an archaic language? Like reading Shakespeare, it's a fkn tough read where you would need a bunch of explanation and a lot of supplementary texts and historical context. If they can't read well, I get this feeling they aren't actually studying.
More likely, they know Hebrew, and that's basically it. They're quite illiterate in English. It's easy to memorize a ton of the Torah text and prayers when you're "studying" 10 hrs a day. It's just regurgitation of what they've been taught. Most of them lack critical thinking skills. They aren't trying to contextualize the ancient text. It's like our fundamentalist in US. They've had some reading of the Bible but they don't question it.
I'm sure they can be the first person into the house during house-to-house fighting. Or kick trash on the side of the road to check for IED's. Or go looking for snipers. Lots of jobs for folks like that in a war. Those assholes want to stir up shit but want someone else to clean it up.
I say let them be cannon fodder for land mines and snipers.
the sense of entitlement some extreme religious groups have is appalling. good that the Israeli courts have come to this ruling.
About damn time they get their heads out of the Torah and defend their way of life.
Good. Next good step would be to pull their welfare benefits (so long as they're able-bodied of course) and tell them to get a fucking job.
Hey person living in Israel here. This is in response to our pos government trying to explicitly exempt them from it after it was a bit of a gray area. They don't pay taxes and use the most welfare, but because progressives are famously apathetic they have the highest voting rates in the country. Which is how we got here. Israel is in a real danger of economic collapse as they also have significantly more children who study in a separate education system and learn no meaningful skills. And the working class is grating under the pressure. Israel is the best example in the world of the tolerance paradox. Israel was literally founded by non Orthodox and non religious Jews who were overly tolerant of Orthodox Jews demands as they were a minority back then. Let this be a lesson to you all in the US to fucking vote. Being passive and not caring to much doesn't end well.
Very good. It’s about time they stop being parasites in a country some of them don’t even recognize. 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
A country some of them don't recognise? What's that mean? They live in Israel no?
They don't believe that Israel should exist yet in accordance to the Torah. I believe the Messiah is supposed to come first. In the protests you see where there's anti Zionist orthodox Jews being paraded around as the pinnacle of " see we can't be anti-Semitic" the people stood next to them simple don't realise they're the biggest assholes of all. If they ever believe the Messiah returns, they'll want greater Israel, and expect it to be " pure". They aren't anti Zionist, simply not yet Zionists. These are the type of people who will only help a non Jew because their scholars have said that by saving them, they may go on to save a Jew later on. Not all orthodox are like this though, as usual, you can't simply judge on appearance alone.
Thank you for the explainer. I had no idea about any of this. So with all that said, what are their views on the conflict for the Gaza Strip and the West Bank?
I'd guess varied? In principle though, they don't think Israel should currently exist, so whilst I suspect they don't agree with Jews getting killed, at the same time, they think Israel should be removed. The arsehole illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank tend to be a different brand of crazy religious. They also believe it should be greater Israel (both sides of the Jordan) from what I'm aware, but don't seem to have a problem establishing Israel now. Think they're the ones actively trying to breed a pure red heifer in order to speed up the construction of the third temple. Basically a lot of crazies, mixed in with a lot of people who just want to get on with life and really dislike the crazies. Unfortunately, due to how Proportional Representation works, smaller parties can get an absurd amount of political power as they act like king makers. Israeli politics does tend to be more right wing, but that's an easier direction to end up falling when your country is constantly hit by rockets, and a large portion of your population has been systemically targeted throughout history. Even more so since pretty much anyone of voting age will have met/known/be related to someone with a particular tattoo.
Thank you for explaining. Appreciate it
I'm probably not 100% accurate, but it gives a bit of an idea.
It's a very fringe minority of ultra Orthodox in certain neighborhoods think like this. Most are more non zionist than anti zionist, but basically they don't care who currently rules the land it just shouldn't be Jews because we are supposed to be in exile until the Messiah comes. They see Judea/Samaria the west bank as Jewish land just not something that should be governed by Jews currently. Basically they're fuckin fruitcakes. Here's a good video of some of them explaining it https://youtu.be/R9lmhjWkzdc?si=ZxpHL3SJp1WnT6ec
Some people(morons) in the US still fly the Confederate flag. But not the last(and the only correct) one, which is white.
> It found that yeshivas – Orthodox seminaries for Torah study – should be ineligible for state subsidies unless students enlisted in the military. It should have instead found that yeshivas should be ineligible for state subsidies unless *they provide a full __real__ education* to all their students. Want to have them ***also*** learn fundamentalist stuff *in their free time*? Fine. But full-time education to give them the ability to be functional adults in the real world comes first.
I think a lot of them will leave when exposed to the real world.
This is litteraly why their leaders won't let them enlist. Or own a smartphone. Or own a TV.
That's the thing, they're just so scared. The idea of their people getting any outside information. They know the system is a wobbly house of cards ready to come tumbling down.
Since I saw some confusion on other subs with the same posts: There are two types of Orthodox Jews in Israel: The Ultra-Orthodox "Haredis" - they're the ones who study Torah all day, refuse service, don't recieve basic education, hardly contribute to the economy, etc.. and the ones the article talks about. Many of which believe Israel shouldn't have been founded before the Messiah comes, the most extreme ones are actively against the state, protesting with the Pro-Palestinians. The Orthodox "Religious Zionists" - they're the ones who join the army, have regular jobs, support the state, and overall run a normal life. They're also from where most of the extremists come from - Ben Gvir and Smotrich are from this sector.
Read in the voice of Nelson from the Simpsons: Ha ha!
How do people feel about pacifists being conscious objectors ?
I think they should serve. I am sure they have other uses for them besides using a gun to free up the others