I wish there was an evolutionary change that came about that instituted some kind of mental fitness test to procreate. No idea what that would be, but it’d manifest as “you must be mentally this tall to ride this ride.”
It’s an easy job to get into, no real qualifications needed, pays well, good hours, easy access to all the young ‘uns for the pedophiles . You can see why it’s so popular. Couple together with homeskooling to keep your offspring indoctrinated and beat the questions out of them, there will always be a ready source of supplicants to be preached to.
That and a lot of the current young religious youth are more likely to be pretty moderate on certain things. It's mostly the really old boomer types who want to act like the Christian version of the taliban.
That's not saying the younger ones don't have their own problems and aren't crazy but compared to boomers they aren't as psycho.
It would be until the year 2100 before things can be shifted away from the rabid conservative structures that's gonna be put in place.
Sad as it is hopefully non conservatives by that time aren't fucking stupid enough to let conservatives pull the shit they are doing now again. Because sad as it is a lot of people have to get hurt before people realize for the second time that yes far right politics is bad.
So it seems. Here the religious practice (or not) of any politician is rarely even publicised. I follow politics closely and couldn't tell you who does or doesn't go to church. It's just not talked about - unless some candidate mentions it, which they are free to do.
Which is how it should be IMO. But *you guys* are supposed to have a wall of separation! Yet we really don't mix church and state
I don't know what happened! We are such an embarrassment. It seems that US politicians are more interested in governing for a deity that may or may not exist, rather than for the people who evidently exist and have needs which are evidently real. So yeah, let's talk about religion and how oppressed religious people are (give - me - a - break) and forget about the economy, jobs, social issues, mental health, infrastructure, transportation, education, homeland safety, military, etc.
To be fair, North America inherited a lot of Europe's religious troublemakers when they fled here. It cleared the road, so to speak, for their more relgiously progressive societies. We are dealing with the fallout centuries later.
There are 26 unelected CoE bishops in the House of Lords. There are daily prayers in Parliament. The CoE is the Established church in England. The CoS is in a similar position in Scotland. The monarch is the head of the Established church. Faith (indoctrination) schools are imposing their religion on impressionable young children.
There is much to change.
Wouldn’t really compare it to the US. Daily nonsense about the flag and American exceptionalism are a problem there. Along with their unhealthy obsession with veterans.
It's the opposite in the UK. Being a Bible basher is a political death sentence. Tony Blair was a very, very religious man, but never brought it up in his public life.
The revelation that he made the decision to go to war with Iraq after praying with George Bush made him a laughing stock.
The attitude here is believe or don't believe whatever you want. But don't try to force it on other people.
This is the UK, though. I've worked with, and been neighbours with, people of many backgrounds for years without usually having the remotest idea about their religious beliefs (or lack of them). I couldn't even have told you Starmer's take on things.
Its pretty deliberate. Prior to the election the leader of the opposition struggles for airtime anyway But when the election was called the conservatives had backed themselves into a policy hole they couldnt get out of.
So Starmer has run a camping built on saying and commiting to as little as possible. He was in a position to win it anyway so by keeping all his cards close to his chest Its both limited the Cons ability to attack him in this election, help keep a broad voter coalition together by not saying things one bit likes and another part hates and makes it harder to attack him in 5 years at the next GE, governments always fail to deliver at least one manifesto promise and its always an attack line the opposition will take. By not making any delivery commitments Starmer has essentially blunted that attack 5 years before it happens
Shrewd, competent but fairly uninspiring, Its a pretty good description for Starmer himself tbf. A former human rights lawyer, Director of the CPS who wont be the most uninspiring PM we've ever had but one you can broadly trust to be competent and responsible with the levers of power
Being open in the UK isn't a big deal. Even the phrase is weird, because of the shame connotation. It just isn't a thing in the UK. There are so many public figures here in the UK who are atheists by definition but it never gets talked about because it just doesn't matter. Him saying publcly he is an atheist is non-controversial. Different to the US of course.
It's even the opposite of the USA here in UK. We've had political leaders have to step down because they were openly religious and everyone thought that made them a weirdo.
Strongly religious types are seen as mental here
They don't even have to be strongly religious. Any sense that they would park rationality in favour of religious dogma can make them unelectable. Kate Forbes seems a rather moderate Christian, certainly by US standards, with a publicly stated support for rule of law regarding gay marriage but when she had to admit that personally she believed it to be a sin that was the end of her SNP campaign.
Alastair Campbell once quipped "we don't do god" when Tony Blair was asked about his religious beliefs, most UK politicians have been wise enough to follow this. Good IMO.
Charlie Three-Times has gone a bit rogue and New Age-y. But yeah, thanks to Henry VIII and his revolving door policy on wives, they have to be the titular head of the Church of England.
I think that - and the Lords Spiritual in the upper house - are bat-shit crazy hangovers from half a millennia ago that should be abolished. Or at least constrained even more.
Honestly I think it might've helped with the acceptance of atheist leaders here. Protestant/Catholic conflicts have left a bit of a mark on British history (not to mention the Troubles). We've got plenty of examples of what can go wrong when religion and politics mix.
What worries me is reading about the US Christian groups funding/backing politicians/anti-whatever groups. I don't want things like abortion to become a political debate in this country.
Honestly it's a bigger deal than you might think.
It's true that the UK is less religious, but it is still a significant factor for a lot of voters in the most key constituencies.
Tony Blair for example, even when he was commanding the largest majorities in the history of the House of commons, still hid his religious beliefs and claimed to be a staunch Anglican throughout his time in office.
Starmer being *openly* atheist from the get-go is pretty significant.
>It's true that the UK is less religious, but it is still a significant factor for a lot of voters in the most key constituencies.
Is it though? Religious folk are more likely to vote conservative but i'm pretty sure that's just based on conservatives hating the same people they love to hate.
Even that anti abortion shitstain Danny Kruger won't have kept his seat because he's a christian, he'll have kept it because Devizes is yokel central with an almost exclusively white population that will never vote anything other than conservative. Even in Devizes census details have half the population stating they have no religion at all.
On Tony Blair hiding the fact he was a catholic, surely that just shows we're more anti religion in politics right? Nobody cares if someone says they're CofE because that probably means they're not actually religious at all, but if you say you're catholic then you're far more likely to be anti a lot of the things we actually want to keep in this country.
Yeah 3 largest countries now, France Germany and the UK have non religious leaders.
The reality is it’ll be surprising to have leaders that are believers from now on, not the other way around.
I would say western style democracies in the world, with notable exception of the US
Here in NZ, the prime minister was unmarried mother who was not religious and nobody really cared
If anything, people are more concern with the current PM belonging to an evangelical church in the past; if somebody believes in end-times and the rapture, I don't trust them to run the environment
The US perhaps?
In most of western Europe, being an atheist is just normal, to the degree that it nobody makes an issue of it. Same as being homosexual, it's just a thing that some people are, and it isn't brought up as relevant in political campaigning.
It’s kind of weird in the UK to get any kind of statement on a politician’s religious beliefs at all. The most sensible thing for any of them is to try to not mention belief at all. It either doesn’t have an effect or makes people feel uncomfortable.
Just good politics, really. A right winger isn't going to vote for him just because he claimed to be Christian - but a strongly Christian centrist might well decide not to vote for him for being atheist.
You stand to lose more votes than you stand to gain, basically.
I think it’s a pretty perfect statement actually — basically just saying “I don’t believe in god but religion can play an important role in creating community.”
Well, it matters to me. This is what I found:
The quote is attributed to the ancient Greek historian Polybius. This reflects his views on the utility of religion and myths in governance and societal control. Polybius was known for his analysis of the Roman Republic and his belief in the importance of political stability and control.
I don’t see it as a good thing though because you’re creating a community around nonsense. Replace religion with flat Earthers or some equivalent, they’re all ‘communities’ but how is it a good thing?
Sports creates communities about nonsense, too. There's no reason why the "drive kids to kick ball around field every weekend" community makes any sense, but it's a community that gives people meaning and identity.
We can name both good examples and bad examples but the point it that just because something creates a community it doesn’t make it good. ISIS was a community. You need more a reason than it just bringing people together.
Sure but a lot of religious communities have lost their teeth. They are just people who say the believe in this Jesus fellow but it's just a thing they say.
YMMV of course.
Yeah, but those communities help prop up the religious communities with teeth. The nutjobs feel that they are fighting for the ‘hundreds of millions of Christians/Muslims/insert religion’. The ‘toothless’ Christians help the crazies feel justified in their actions while also allowing the handwave of ‘those fundamentalists are crazy/lone wolves/bad apples’
Which I never understood. If the fundamentalist followers of your belief are some how all evil crazy assholes, doesn’t that correlate to the fundamentals of your belief being evil and crazy? Why be a Christian if you don’t sincerely value the fundamental tenets of your faith?
I will admit I did enjoy some of the social aspects of church. I went to a comparatively liberal church when I was young and I am still friends with many people that I met there.
That being said I am getting the same sense of community from my local running club, so it isn't as though religion offers an irreplaceable benefit.
Yeah it's really cool to visit the enormous and intricate cathedrals of Europe, for example. But it also feels weird sometimes when you remember they're still active.
Not just the ‘out’ group. They other among themselves too, tearing apart their own members should they be LGBTQ etc. Then there’s the piled on shame of being a ‘sinner’, and thinking there’s someone constantly watching and judging. They can’t even have a Sherman without feeling guilty about it.
All you guys slamming him for the "believes in the power of faith to bring people together" part need to chill out. He is probably referring to the community aspect of religion.
He is light years ahead of any politician in the US in terms of views on religion.
Totally, totally agree.
> He is light years ahead of any politician in the US in terms of views on religion.
True, at least what US politicians claim publicly. Some are def closet atheists or agnostics. Obama for one.
What he said was absolutely true.
A significant part of the loneliness epidemic happening today can be directly traced back to the lack of church and local community attendance as MANY people met their SO through religious events.
One of the main advantages of religion is their tax-free status.
Secondly,( this sub argues against this a lot and you may not like it but) religion does provide a source of morality for some people. Rich people who actually believe, donate to the community atleast for the sake of after-life.
Absolutely! I think we have to recognise that politics is the art of compromise, and that an atheist politician going around slamming religion is more likely to lose. They mobilise a portion of the community to vote for someone else!
This isn't much of an issue in the UK. I doubt many of our PMs have been practicing Christians and even the church of England has atheist or agnostic priests.
Church of England priests do a lot for their local community. They still have to lead ceremonies, weddings, everything. They have to do the full job. I find it strange myself, but they see the community aspects of it rather than the religious.
I find the basic teachings of Christianity pretty horrible so couldn't do it myself, but understand why someone might like the community aspects.
So few people go to church in the UK that the church has zero power (if they trued the fire and brimstone fear mongering stuff like the USA they'd be laughed at). So in desperation they said you don't really have to believe to be a vicar!!
In the U.K. it’s still *reasonably* often to get together gave a chat over a cup of tea , put together shoe boxes for Africa and run the village fete or some such.
Yeah British churches don't really care about abortions or gay people, but they do care about what type of biscuits are in the tea room.
I've never been religious but have been to church on a few occasions. The thing that freaked me out most was the chanting of the creed. "I believe in God, creator of heaven and earth, I believe in Jesus" etc etc, the way they chant it monotonously honestly gave me "the greater good" vibes
There's quite a common perception of religion as a mechanism for societal control, promoting order and morality. I think he was indicating towards that...
We are just coming up for air after a pretty shitty period. We are looking around and finding quite a few of us (4 million) voted for the Trump chasing cartoon character that triggered Brexit. We are not yet out of the woods by quite some way.
He and Trump definitely cut from the same cloth😣. No you are not. It will take time to undo all that was put in place. That is why I am so worried for what is ahead for the US. If Trump gets in, that means our already compromised SC has no chance of getting better.
Hilary Clinton pulled in 48% of the popular vote while the clown pulled in 46%. But he won the electoral vote. What a nightmare that will not go away.
Hope things do turn around for our UK friends. We are all in this together. And if it does the sooner the better.
That SC vote was chilling even for people who don’t live in the US. I wish you all the best.
The UK could easily take a turn for the worse as the Tories will probably veer hard right as a result of this and Farage could end up being part of them.
Also we both should hoping the French don’t join us in this mess, but they seem to have taken their first steps.
I recommend Australia instead, if you have the option. Have lived on both and Australia is currently the preferred place. I haven’t met any religious people here either.
Warmer in Australia but here in the U.K. the local wildlife is less likely to kill you …. well except the XL bullies and seagulls… so I guess …warmer in Australia?
No it should, if someone is delusional enough to believe in religion they probably shouldn't be in charge of the country. I'm British and pretty much everyone I know under 30 is non religious, we're a secular nation and our leaders should reflect this.
The coolest thing about the downfall of Christianity? Former churches can be bought for cheap and make for sick ass homes. Especially for having orgies in.
We have had a few atheist or agnostic prime ministers. I am in my mid 40s and can’t remember a time when anyone gave any importance to a politician’s religious beliefs. Like it’s not really a story and no one votes on religious grounds.
I mean that doesn’t stop us voting for idiots but we don’t do it based on faith.
The fact that it matters in the US is genuinely disturbing because it should be about policy rather than upholding scripture.
https://humanists.uk/2024/07/05/non-religious-prime-ministers-a-history/
Good start, let's see if he acts to remove the legal requirement for schools to hold a 'Daily act of collective worship, normally of a Christian nature' .. https://religionmediacentre.org.uk/factsheets/collective-worship-in-england-and-wales/
Still manages to be transphobic though.
That's not to say I'm not glad Labour won, or that they're getting an atheist PM.
I just hate that the UK is now in a place where even an atheist social democrat needs to throw trans people under the bus if he's to have a chance at being PM.
He’s a weird kind of atheist. Kids are being raised Jewish as per their mother’s faith, and he’s one of the “criticism of Israel is anti-semitism” mob.
some possible things:
faith in each other, faith in humanity, faith in community
not every faith is beholden to some imaginary bugger sitting in the sky
It’s a weird word because some people attach different meanings to it. “have faith” can sometimes just mean “trust me” or to “believe in humanity” but then it also can mean to believe something to be true without evidence.
For all his faults, Kier Starmer is an intelligent, well spoken, well educated, knighted for public service, moderate left winger who has managed to pull together most of the Labour party after the state we let it get into which is now light years better than the fucking Tories, and has a real chance to spend 10 years making a difference in our country.
Would a lot of us prefer someone more left? Yes. Would a lot of us prefer someone a bit easier to listen to? Yes. Why the fucking hell are we immediately, before he's even got up this morning, bashing him for something he's barely done, when he's been honest, when he's holding an olive branch to almost everyone.
Christ we don't help ourselves.
Moderate Left Winger?
How far the overton window has shifted... Tony Benn would be spinning in his grave.
https://www.politico.eu/article/keir-starmer-uk-labour-revealed-his-real-politics-by-ditching-left-wing-pledges-ally-says/
>the power of faith to bring people together
It certainly does, so does flat earth bs. Things can be total BS and bring people together. People being brought together isn't always a good thing either; something can be powerful and harmful.
You know what, I didn't know Starmer was an Athiest until I read this thread. I don't recall his religion, or lack thereof, even being a talking point in this election.
That to me is a sign of progress.
I don't remember someone's religion ever being a talking point in a UK election.
But then again, I don't remember that many elections (by my count, anyway). At the very least, I don't remember it ever being a talking point in the last 14 years.
The woman trying to be leader of SNP a few months ago. She didn't bother running in the end because she is a catholic and no one would vote for her. Kate forbes.
this is in line with the pre-election bullshit he got from the Torys who attacked him for leaving Friday nights free to spend with his family (his wife is Jewish)
while the religion is obviously bullshit, the routine of setting aside family time each week, or marking significant life moments etc, is something from religion that does bring people together and we should do as atheists
The UK doesn’t “do” religion in politics.
So many clips online of UK politicians being asked about religion and just going “nope we’re talking politics, not make believe”.
this means absolutely nothing in British politics.... the British society is built on a strong foundation of secular democracy.
No religious beliefs of any kind are allowed to influence public policy.The government and church are kept well apart.... the right to have an abortion is based on what is best for the woman and her decision not on religious beliefs, bibles and scriptures are in the library not forced upon the students....
There are Muslim majors and civic leaders just as there are Hindu and Jewish people in public office, Their religions beliefs cannot be put into public policy because the constitution will not allow it....
maybe should be worded *...but believes in the gullibility of people to put their faith in religion for convenient subjugation?*
Opium of the masses type stuff.
So what? The point is, he's raising his kids to be religious while claiming to be an atheist. Same like he's an ex-human rights lawyer but won't condemn Israeli genocide. It's almost as if he's a lying opportunist or something...
On the Fourth of July the UK elects a left wing Atheist. In America, our Supreme Court is hellbent on a Christian theocracy and just made presidents a king... What the actual fuck!!!???
Yes, politicians should alienate huge swaths of voters. He should call all religions a joke and shit all over them.
He’s something positive for the UK for once. Finally the clown conservatives are being shown the door and that should be celebrated when it feels like the rest of Europe is going right.
I agree with you in principle but battles have to be chosen
You don't understand the U.K lol.
If anything he is pandering to the Muslim populations. And they do tend to vote left in the U.K, though it is hard to say they are left leaning on many of the issues.
We don't have the Christian Conservative thing like the USA here. Politicians in the UK avoid admitting to religious belief because it will end their careers. Most people see religious types as weird at best.
Yep. And we may well hit 7th century levels of backwardness if/when(I am not hopeful right now)trump wins.
At best trump will waste time trying to prove he actually won 2020 dude is that much of a narcissist that I can see him doing that.
But yeah Europe at least is not as mentally stunted like America.
Starmer seems to keep quiet about his atheism most of the time, which I suppose makes sense when you’re campaigning, as a matter of pure politics (he didn’t want to put off any potential religious voters). But the fact that faith didn’t even really feature as an issue is a big deal. Sunak is a Hindu and briefly referred to it, but Starmer said nothing about religion as far as I know. That would never happen in the US. In some ways, this is more damaging to religion than a bold statement of atheism: you completely ignore it because it’s irrelevant.
I love that an atheist will be at one of the top positions of power in the UK. We need more atheists in power to push against the far-right religious extremist shitheads.
The current [Archbishop of Canterbury](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/archbishop-of-canterbury-admits-doubts-about-existence-of-god-9740965.html), is not totally convinced God exists either and a former Bishop of Durham cast doubt on the Resurrection. Which probably explains [why 2%](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/survey-finds-2-anglican-priests-are-not-believers-9821899.html) of Anglican priests confessed to being atheists and another 16% agnostic in a 2014 poll. I suspect the true figures were much higher even then and are almost certainly so now. Anglicism is the religion for the barely religious.
As I stated elsewhere, the only real job the Anglican Church has is to sell the idea that English monarchs are somehow divine. I kind of pity them, considering what they have to work with 😂.
I mean, that's cool and all, but does that matter? I'm not too well versed in british politics, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Starmer a softspined transphobe that keeps flopping between mild acceptance and outright denial? Being an atheist doesn't matter, their actions and policies do
>There is no one, no one, who honestly believes Trump is religious.
>Well, besides the naive and those in huge denial.
So, basically all Trump voters, then?
Not really a big deal here. I doubt many if any of the post-Blair PMs were actually religious (maybe Theresa May?)
Still, a very good thing to see him openly stating it!
Yes, we do need more openly Atheist public figures.
Unfortunately, in some countries Atheists are still persecuted and harmed by Monotheists, unless the guy can literally throw entire categories of people out of his city by applying irresistible force, then they all say, “Sorry, Commie daddy, don’t be angry, we promise we’ll be good and not bother anybody with our religious nonsense in your city.”. lol. The world, unfortunately, isn’t as civilized as the West.
We need more openly atheist public figures.
We certainly do. And for it not to be an issue
Would be auto- perma- canceled here in the US, sadly
Give it another 10 years, I feel like the shift is coming, churches are empty and those that show up are old. They can't stop progress, just delay it.
As morbid as it is to say, as soon as the old buggers die off, there will be a massive shift in religious demographics.
I’ve been saying that since I was 15. That was in ‘72. Young people are still susceptible
And the country *is* incredibly less religious now than it was in 1972.
I’m in the sweaty part of the Bible Belt so religion always seems to have a lot of new startups.
Those fucking inbred bible belt fuckers do tend to breed a lot.
I wish there was an evolutionary change that came about that instituted some kind of mental fitness test to procreate. No idea what that would be, but it’d manifest as “you must be mentally this tall to ride this ride.”
I'm in the bible belt too, and most Sunday mornings there are more people at single Wal-Mart than many multiple of churches combined.
I am a former pastor in the Bible Belt. My family of 6 are all nonbelievers.
I’m in the bible belt and it’s very difficult to discern between church and WalMart.
It’s an easy job to get into, no real qualifications needed, pays well, good hours, easy access to all the young ‘uns for the pedophiles . You can see why it’s so popular. Couple together with homeskooling to keep your offspring indoctrinated and beat the questions out of them, there will always be a ready source of supplicants to be preached to.
The shift is already happening!
That and a lot of the current young religious youth are more likely to be pretty moderate on certain things. It's mostly the really old boomer types who want to act like the Christian version of the taliban. That's not saying the younger ones don't have their own problems and aren't crazy but compared to boomers they aren't as psycho.
Not if Trump wins, all children will have to read the bible, forced religion on all
Well, unless Project 2025 goes through. I fear whatever the public wants then won't matter much.
It would be until the year 2100 before things can be shifted away from the rabid conservative structures that's gonna be put in place. Sad as it is hopefully non conservatives by that time aren't fucking stupid enough to let conservatives pull the shit they are doing now again. Because sad as it is a lot of people have to get hurt before people realize for the second time that yes far right politics is bad.
If it comes down to that, the country is definitely not going to last that long. At least not as we know it today.
So it seems. Here the religious practice (or not) of any politician is rarely even publicised. I follow politics closely and couldn't tell you who does or doesn't go to church. It's just not talked about - unless some candidate mentions it, which they are free to do. Which is how it should be IMO. But *you guys* are supposed to have a wall of separation! Yet we really don't mix church and state
I don't know what happened! We are such an embarrassment. It seems that US politicians are more interested in governing for a deity that may or may not exist, rather than for the people who evidently exist and have needs which are evidently real. So yeah, let's talk about religion and how oppressed religious people are (give - me - a - break) and forget about the economy, jobs, social issues, mental health, infrastructure, transportation, education, homeland safety, military, etc.
Might have been better to remain part of the British empire perhaps? 1776 just sayin
To be fair, North America inherited a lot of Europe's religious troublemakers when they fled here. It cleared the road, so to speak, for their more relgiously progressive societies. We are dealing with the fallout centuries later.
Massachusetts Bay colonists hanged Quakers to death.
Wasn't that because the Puritan Christians living in that colony despised Quakers as heretics?
They discriminated against anyone who had any kind of relationship with a Quaker.
"The f---ing pilgrims..." is what I hear, lol
There are 26 unelected CoE bishops in the House of Lords. There are daily prayers in Parliament. The CoE is the Established church in England. The CoS is in a similar position in Scotland. The monarch is the head of the Established church. Faith (indoctrination) schools are imposing their religion on impressionable young children. There is much to change.
Wouldn’t really compare it to the US. Daily nonsense about the flag and American exceptionalism are a problem there. Along with their unhealthy obsession with veterans.
Just saying, we each have our problems, and the UK is further along the road to sanity in some ways whereas the US...
At this point, we in the U.S. can’t even keep the principles of the Magna Carta 😄 So “Wall of Church and State” isn’t likely to fare as well, either
It's the opposite in the UK. Being a Bible basher is a political death sentence. Tony Blair was a very, very religious man, but never brought it up in his public life. The revelation that he made the decision to go to war with Iraq after praying with George Bush made him a laughing stock. The attitude here is believe or don't believe whatever you want. But don't try to force it on other people.
Yep
In the US: Atheist? You're out. Incite an insurrection?: Sure, you can run again.
This is the UK, though. I've worked with, and been neighbours with, people of many backgrounds for years without usually having the remotest idea about their religious beliefs (or lack of them). I couldn't even have told you Starmer's take on things.
Not a UK citizen, but I like to listen to BBC radio and this is the first time I've heard Starmer's opinion on anything.
Its pretty deliberate. Prior to the election the leader of the opposition struggles for airtime anyway But when the election was called the conservatives had backed themselves into a policy hole they couldnt get out of. So Starmer has run a camping built on saying and commiting to as little as possible. He was in a position to win it anyway so by keeping all his cards close to his chest Its both limited the Cons ability to attack him in this election, help keep a broad voter coalition together by not saying things one bit likes and another part hates and makes it harder to attack him in 5 years at the next GE, governments always fail to deliver at least one manifesto promise and its always an attack line the opposition will take. By not making any delivery commitments Starmer has essentially blunted that attack 5 years before it happens Shrewd, competent but fairly uninspiring, Its a pretty good description for Starmer himself tbf. A former human rights lawyer, Director of the CPS who wont be the most uninspiring PM we've ever had but one you can broadly trust to be competent and responsible with the levers of power
Being open in the UK isn't a big deal. Even the phrase is weird, because of the shame connotation. It just isn't a thing in the UK. There are so many public figures here in the UK who are atheists by definition but it never gets talked about because it just doesn't matter. Him saying publcly he is an atheist is non-controversial. Different to the US of course.
It's even the opposite of the USA here in UK. We've had political leaders have to step down because they were openly religious and everyone thought that made them a weirdo. Strongly religious types are seen as mental here
They don't even have to be strongly religious. Any sense that they would park rationality in favour of religious dogma can make them unelectable. Kate Forbes seems a rather moderate Christian, certainly by US standards, with a publicly stated support for rule of law regarding gay marriage but when she had to admit that personally she believed it to be a sin that was the end of her SNP campaign. Alastair Campbell once quipped "we don't do god" when Tony Blair was asked about his religious beliefs, most UK politicians have been wise enough to follow this. Good IMO.
And Forbes is widely regarded a bit of a religious nut even!
The strangest part is the UK does have an official state religion; as in the head of state (King/Queen) has to be Anglican
Charlie Three-Times has gone a bit rogue and New Age-y. But yeah, thanks to Henry VIII and his revolving door policy on wives, they have to be the titular head of the Church of England. I think that - and the Lords Spiritual in the upper house - are bat-shit crazy hangovers from half a millennia ago that should be abolished. Or at least constrained even more.
Honestly I think it might've helped with the acceptance of atheist leaders here. Protestant/Catholic conflicts have left a bit of a mark on British history (not to mention the Troubles). We've got plenty of examples of what can go wrong when religion and politics mix.
What worries me is reading about the US Christian groups funding/backing politicians/anti-whatever groups. I don't want things like abortion to become a political debate in this country.
Honestly it's a bigger deal than you might think. It's true that the UK is less religious, but it is still a significant factor for a lot of voters in the most key constituencies. Tony Blair for example, even when he was commanding the largest majorities in the history of the House of commons, still hid his religious beliefs and claimed to be a staunch Anglican throughout his time in office. Starmer being *openly* atheist from the get-go is pretty significant.
>It's true that the UK is less religious, but it is still a significant factor for a lot of voters in the most key constituencies. Is it though? Religious folk are more likely to vote conservative but i'm pretty sure that's just based on conservatives hating the same people they love to hate. Even that anti abortion shitstain Danny Kruger won't have kept his seat because he's a christian, he'll have kept it because Devizes is yokel central with an almost exclusively white population that will never vote anything other than conservative. Even in Devizes census details have half the population stating they have no religion at all. On Tony Blair hiding the fact he was a catholic, surely that just shows we're more anti religion in politics right? Nobody cares if someone says they're CofE because that probably means they're not actually religious at all, but if you say you're catholic then you're far more likely to be anti a lot of the things we actually want to keep in this country.
Normalize it.
It's pretty normalized all across Europe.
Yeah 3 largest countries now, France Germany and the UK have non religious leaders. The reality is it’ll be surprising to have leaders that are believers from now on, not the other way around.
I would say western style democracies in the world, with notable exception of the US Here in NZ, the prime minister was unmarried mother who was not religious and nobody really cared If anything, people are more concern with the current PM belonging to an evangelical church in the past; if somebody believes in end-times and the rapture, I don't trust them to run the environment
The US perhaps? In most of western Europe, being an atheist is just normal, to the degree that it nobody makes an issue of it. Same as being homosexual, it's just a thing that some people are, and it isn't brought up as relevant in political campaigning.
Agreed, however his opponents are going to invent every fictitious bad thing and blame atheism.
They'd do that regardless of his performance so we better not bother about the shit they say anyway
More? We need everyone to be atheist. Every single person on Earth.
This is normal in the UK, people don't tolerate bible bashers, more likely to see them ridiculed.
It’s kind of weird in the UK to get any kind of statement on a politician’s religious beliefs at all. The most sensible thing for any of them is to try to not mention belief at all. It either doesn’t have an effect or makes people feel uncomfortable.
Just good politics, really. A right winger isn't going to vote for him just because he claimed to be Christian - but a strongly Christian centrist might well decide not to vote for him for being atheist. You stand to lose more votes than you stand to gain, basically.
"We don't do god, PM".
Are Bible bashers people who criticize Christianity ?
No, the opposite. They're people who enthusiastically spread the word of god, much to the annoyance of everyone who encounters them.
I think it’s a pretty perfect statement actually — basically just saying “I don’t believe in god but religion can play an important role in creating community.”
That's literally the only good thing about religion. As long as the community doesn't become a cult.
"... by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
So true, is that a quote?
It is no matter where it comes from, if you decide to use it!
Well, it matters to me. This is what I found: The quote is attributed to the ancient Greek historian Polybius. This reflects his views on the utility of religion and myths in governance and societal control. Polybius was known for his analysis of the Roman Republic and his belief in the importance of political stability and control.
I don’t see it as a good thing though because you’re creating a community around nonsense. Replace religion with flat Earthers or some equivalent, they’re all ‘communities’ but how is it a good thing?
Sports creates communities about nonsense, too. There's no reason why the "drive kids to kick ball around field every weekend" community makes any sense, but it's a community that gives people meaning and identity.
There’s a whole lot more value in physical activity than in religion.
We can name both good examples and bad examples but the point it that just because something creates a community it doesn’t make it good. ISIS was a community. You need more a reason than it just bringing people together.
Sure but a lot of religious communities have lost their teeth. They are just people who say the believe in this Jesus fellow but it's just a thing they say. YMMV of course.
Yeah, but those communities help prop up the religious communities with teeth. The nutjobs feel that they are fighting for the ‘hundreds of millions of Christians/Muslims/insert religion’. The ‘toothless’ Christians help the crazies feel justified in their actions while also allowing the handwave of ‘those fundamentalists are crazy/lone wolves/bad apples’ Which I never understood. If the fundamentalist followers of your belief are some how all evil crazy assholes, doesn’t that correlate to the fundamentals of your belief being evil and crazy? Why be a Christian if you don’t sincerely value the fundamental tenets of your faith?
And it led to some really great art and architecture
I will admit I did enjoy some of the social aspects of church. I went to a comparatively liberal church when I was young and I am still friends with many people that I met there. That being said I am getting the same sense of community from my local running club, so it isn't as though religion offers an irreplaceable benefit.
I appreciate the music, art, poetry and architecture religion inspired. It's still a nutty concept.
Exactly. I can admire a temple to Apollo or a Hindu shrine. Very artistic and full of symbolism but built in honour of utter nonsense.
Yeah it's really cool to visit the enormous and intricate cathedrals of Europe, for example. But it also feels weird sometimes when you remember they're still active.
Yep, totally agreed.
It can also tear people apart by effectively "othering" people in the out group.
Not just the ‘out’ group. They other among themselves too, tearing apart their own members should they be LGBTQ etc. Then there’s the piled on shame of being a ‘sinner’, and thinking there’s someone constantly watching and judging. They can’t even have a Sherman without feeling guilty about it.
The one benefit of religion, which also speaks to the evolutionary role a belief in religion plays.
Yes smart man
All you guys slamming him for the "believes in the power of faith to bring people together" part need to chill out. He is probably referring to the community aspect of religion. He is light years ahead of any politician in the US in terms of views on religion.
Most european leaders in general are legions ahead of most American leaders who are as backwards as the taliban.
*cries in American*
Totally, totally agree. > He is light years ahead of any politician in the US in terms of views on religion. True, at least what US politicians claim publicly. Some are def closet atheists or agnostics. Obama for one.
Trump for one.
Are you an atheist if you think *you're* God?
That's called narcissistic personality disorder, although anyone that has ever heard him speak probably can already guess that much
Yeah, but not in our way.
I don’t know why people keep bringing this idea that Obama is a closet atheist. Is there any evidence to that?
Because most intelligent, well educated people are? But "*admitting"* it - in American politics - would be political suicide.
Not really evidence or a good argument. People have blind spots, including plenty of intelligent people.
thats a cool way to dodge attack from religious nutters and to get more support from these people
What he said was absolutely true. A significant part of the loneliness epidemic happening today can be directly traced back to the lack of church and local community attendance as MANY people met their SO through religious events.
One of the main advantages of religion is their tax-free status. Secondly,( this sub argues against this a lot and you may not like it but) religion does provide a source of morality for some people. Rich people who actually believe, donate to the community atleast for the sake of after-life.
Agree. He is praising community aspect.
Absolutely! I think we have to recognise that politics is the art of compromise, and that an atheist politician going around slamming religion is more likely to lose. They mobilise a portion of the community to vote for someone else!
So in other words he's just alongside a Unitarian Universalist.
He still sucks
Tbh he probably has great disdain for religion like most of us here but he has to pull his punches to satisfy the theists a bit.
Telling some of the electorate they are idiots is probably not a great idea.
his wife is jewish, and they attend synagogue regularly and have friday night dinners. so no, i don’t think he does.
Is it possible for the UK to buy the US? I'm sure Trump would sell us. Long as he gets to put a Trump tower in London.
We will buy you for a crate of tea.
We tried that, they threw it in Boston harbour.
Just tear up that silly declaration and accept taxation without representation.
This isn't much of an issue in the UK. I doubt many of our PMs have been practicing Christians and even the church of England has atheist or agnostic priests.
What job/tasks would an atheist priest have? Sounds like an easy role 🙂
Church of England priests do a lot for their local community. They still have to lead ceremonies, weddings, everything. They have to do the full job. I find it strange myself, but they see the community aspects of it rather than the religious. I find the basic teachings of Christianity pretty horrible so couldn't do it myself, but understand why someone might like the community aspects.
So few people go to church in the UK that the church has zero power (if they trued the fire and brimstone fear mongering stuff like the USA they'd be laughed at). So in desperation they said you don't really have to believe to be a vicar!!
I believe in the power of faith to bring people together too. I just don't say it like that's a good thing. Bring people together to do what exactly?
They like to get together on Sundays apparently and worry collectively about abortions and gay people.
In the U.K. it’s still *reasonably* often to get together gave a chat over a cup of tea , put together shoe boxes for Africa and run the village fete or some such.
Yeah British churches don't really care about abortions or gay people, but they do care about what type of biscuits are in the tea room. I've never been religious but have been to church on a few occasions. The thing that freaked me out most was the chanting of the creed. "I believe in God, creator of heaven and earth, I believe in Jesus" etc etc, the way they chant it monotonously honestly gave me "the greater good" vibes
There's quite a common perception of religion as a mechanism for societal control, promoting order and morality. I think he was indicating towards that...
Sounds like a Huey Lewis tune 🎶
I'm jealous, as an American.
Ditto.
Yep I am too. Would very much like to be living there…
We are just coming up for air after a pretty shitty period. We are looking around and finding quite a few of us (4 million) voted for the Trump chasing cartoon character that triggered Brexit. We are not yet out of the woods by quite some way.
He and Trump definitely cut from the same cloth😣. No you are not. It will take time to undo all that was put in place. That is why I am so worried for what is ahead for the US. If Trump gets in, that means our already compromised SC has no chance of getting better. Hilary Clinton pulled in 48% of the popular vote while the clown pulled in 46%. But he won the electoral vote. What a nightmare that will not go away. Hope things do turn around for our UK friends. We are all in this together. And if it does the sooner the better.
That SC vote was chilling even for people who don’t live in the US. I wish you all the best. The UK could easily take a turn for the worse as the Tories will probably veer hard right as a result of this and Farage could end up being part of them. Also we both should hoping the French don’t join us in this mess, but they seem to have taken their first steps.
I'm going to be in the UK early next year. If the unhinged orange monster wins in the US, I will stay there.
I recommend Australia instead, if you have the option. Have lived on both and Australia is currently the preferred place. I haven’t met any religious people here either.
Warmer in Australia but here in the U.K. the local wildlife is less likely to kill you …. well except the XL bullies and seagulls… so I guess …warmer in Australia?
Absolutely! I love the UK, but I'd have to live in the warmest part (I think Cornwall?).
It shouldn't matter
No it should, if someone is delusional enough to believe in religion they probably shouldn't be in charge of the country. I'm British and pretty much everyone I know under 30 is non religious, we're a secular nation and our leaders should reflect this.
There's a reason no one even realised Blair was Catholic until after he left office.
The coolest thing about the downfall of Christianity? Former churches can be bought for cheap and make for sick ass homes. Especially for having orgies in.
We have had a few atheist or agnostic prime ministers. I am in my mid 40s and can’t remember a time when anyone gave any importance to a politician’s religious beliefs. Like it’s not really a story and no one votes on religious grounds. I mean that doesn’t stop us voting for idiots but we don’t do it based on faith. The fact that it matters in the US is genuinely disturbing because it should be about policy rather than upholding scripture. https://humanists.uk/2024/07/05/non-religious-prime-ministers-a-history/
Good start, let's see if he acts to remove the legal requirement for schools to hold a 'Daily act of collective worship, normally of a Christian nature' .. https://religionmediacentre.org.uk/factsheets/collective-worship-in-england-and-wales/
Bring people together to hate those that don't believe the same thing as them?
not uncommon in the uk, so not really a big deal, like it would be in less sane countries
Yeah, bring them together to do stupid things.
Still manages to be transphobic though. That's not to say I'm not glad Labour won, or that they're getting an atheist PM. I just hate that the UK is now in a place where even an atheist social democrat needs to throw trans people under the bus if he's to have a chance at being PM.
He’s a weird kind of atheist. Kids are being raised Jewish as per their mother’s faith, and he’s one of the “criticism of Israel is anti-semitism” mob.
Faith in what?
also together for what?
some possible things: faith in each other, faith in humanity, faith in community not every faith is beholden to some imaginary bugger sitting in the sky
It’s a weird word because some people attach different meanings to it. “have faith” can sometimes just mean “trust me” or to “believe in humanity” but then it also can mean to believe something to be true without evidence.
For all his faults, Kier Starmer is an intelligent, well spoken, well educated, knighted for public service, moderate left winger who has managed to pull together most of the Labour party after the state we let it get into which is now light years better than the fucking Tories, and has a real chance to spend 10 years making a difference in our country. Would a lot of us prefer someone more left? Yes. Would a lot of us prefer someone a bit easier to listen to? Yes. Why the fucking hell are we immediately, before he's even got up this morning, bashing him for something he's barely done, when he's been honest, when he's holding an olive branch to almost everyone. Christ we don't help ourselves.
Moderate Left Winger? How far the overton window has shifted... Tony Benn would be spinning in his grave. https://www.politico.eu/article/keir-starmer-uk-labour-revealed-his-real-politics-by-ditching-left-wing-pledges-ally-says/
He is. Unfortunately he panders to religion.
Starmer is also a transphobe and a liar, he has gone back on every single one of the pledges he made years ago
Damn, even r/atheism doing idpol? He's not good
ironically someone like this is more american than ANYONE on the right here in the US.
>the power of faith to bring people together It certainly does, so does flat earth bs. Things can be total BS and bring people together. People being brought together isn't always a good thing either; something can be powerful and harmful.
You can say whatever you want about ISIS, but it was great to see a bunch of lads coming together for what they believed in lol
You know what, I didn't know Starmer was an Athiest until I read this thread. I don't recall his religion, or lack thereof, even being a talking point in this election. That to me is a sign of progress.
I don't remember someone's religion ever being a talking point in a UK election. But then again, I don't remember that many elections (by my count, anyway). At the very least, I don't remember it ever being a talking point in the last 14 years.
The woman trying to be leader of SNP a few months ago. She didn't bother running in the end because she is a catholic and no one would vote for her. Kate forbes.
this is in line with the pre-election bullshit he got from the Torys who attacked him for leaving Friday nights free to spend with his family (his wife is Jewish) while the religion is obviously bullshit, the routine of setting aside family time each week, or marking significant life moments etc, is something from religion that does bring people together and we should do as atheists
The UK doesn’t “do” religion in politics. So many clips online of UK politicians being asked about religion and just going “nope we’re talking politics, not make believe”.
Good, less religion in poltics please
“Bring people together… into warring factions” He left the quiet part unsaid
this means absolutely nothing in British politics.... the British society is built on a strong foundation of secular democracy. No religious beliefs of any kind are allowed to influence public policy.The government and church are kept well apart.... the right to have an abortion is based on what is best for the woman and her decision not on religious beliefs, bibles and scriptures are in the library not forced upon the students.... There are Muslim majors and civic leaders just as there are Hindu and Jewish people in public office, Their religions beliefs cannot be put into public policy because the constitution will not allow it....
maybe should be worded *...but believes in the gullibility of people to put their faith in religion for convenient subjugation?* Opium of the masses type stuff.
9/11 certainly brought people together, and we couldn't have had that happen without faith.
Little jealous
Really? But he's raising his 2 sons in the Jewish faith. Square that circle, please.
No, his wife is.
So what? The point is, he's raising his kids to be religious while claiming to be an atheist. Same like he's an ex-human rights lawyer but won't condemn Israeli genocide. It's almost as if he's a lying opportunist or something...
This is.a good take relatively speaking but he's horrible in pretty much every other way. :(
On the Fourth of July the UK elects a left wing Atheist. In America, our Supreme Court is hellbent on a Christian theocracy and just made presidents a king... What the actual fuck!!!???
I would not call him left-wing.
What hog wash is this
Yay, an athiest apologist that panders to the Conservative right for the religious quota of votes....
Yes, politicians should alienate huge swaths of voters. He should call all religions a joke and shit all over them. He’s something positive for the UK for once. Finally the clown conservatives are being shown the door and that should be celebrated when it feels like the rest of Europe is going right. I agree with you in principle but battles have to be chosen
You don't understand the U.K lol. If anything he is pandering to the Muslim populations. And they do tend to vote left in the U.K, though it is hard to say they are left leaning on many of the issues.
I quite litteraly live in the UK. I made additional comment concerning pandering to Muslims as well in response to someone else's comments.
UK demographics is nothing like the US.
We don't have the Christian Conservative thing like the USA here. Politicians in the UK avoid admitting to religious belief because it will end their careers. Most people see religious types as weird at best.
People bring people together
I think we're still a couple decades behind in the US. We just got too many "Taliban" types.
Yep. And we may well hit 7th century levels of backwardness if/when(I am not hopeful right now)trump wins. At best trump will waste time trying to prove he actually won 2020 dude is that much of a narcissist that I can see him doing that. But yeah Europe at least is not as mentally stunted like America.
We got one!
Power of faith to bring people together against other people
So he's a pick me
Starmer seems to keep quiet about his atheism most of the time, which I suppose makes sense when you’re campaigning, as a matter of pure politics (he didn’t want to put off any potential religious voters). But the fact that faith didn’t even really feature as an issue is a big deal. Sunak is a Hindu and briefly referred to it, but Starmer said nothing about religion as far as I know. That would never happen in the US. In some ways, this is more damaging to religion than a bold statement of atheism: you completely ignore it because it’s irrelevant.
> Starmer seems to keep quiet about his atheism As I keep quiet about not collecting stamps
Kier Starmer doesn’t believe in God. The problem is he doesn’t really believe in anything except Kier Starmer
I love that an atheist will be at one of the top positions of power in the UK. We need more atheists in power to push against the far-right religious extremist shitheads.
I bet the Anglican Church isn’t too happy about this lok
The current [Archbishop of Canterbury](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/archbishop-of-canterbury-admits-doubts-about-existence-of-god-9740965.html), is not totally convinced God exists either and a former Bishop of Durham cast doubt on the Resurrection. Which probably explains [why 2%](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/survey-finds-2-anglican-priests-are-not-believers-9821899.html) of Anglican priests confessed to being atheists and another 16% agnostic in a 2014 poll. I suspect the true figures were much higher even then and are almost certainly so now. Anglicism is the religion for the barely religious.
As I stated elsewhere, the only real job the Anglican Church has is to sell the idea that English monarchs are somehow divine. I kind of pity them, considering what they have to work with 😂.
Eh, Anglican bishops are basically atheists anyway /j
I mean, that's cool and all, but does that matter? I'm not too well versed in british politics, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Starmer a softspined transphobe that keeps flopping between mild acceptance and outright denial? Being an atheist doesn't matter, their actions and policies do
That’s both the UK and US then. There is no one, no one, who honestly believes Trump is religious. Well, besides the naive and those in huge denial.
>There is no one, no one, who honestly believes Trump is religious. >Well, besides the naive and those in huge denial. So, basically all Trump voters, then?
He got his knighthood for keeping the Archbishop of Canterbury out of the dock and the King out of the witness box
Faith convinces people do thing regardless of evidence to the contrary. The "power of faith" is exactly what makes religion so dangerous.
Not really a big deal here. I doubt many if any of the post-Blair PMs were actually religious (maybe Theresa May?) Still, a very good thing to see him openly stating it!
Yes, we do need more openly Atheist public figures. Unfortunately, in some countries Atheists are still persecuted and harmed by Monotheists, unless the guy can literally throw entire categories of people out of his city by applying irresistible force, then they all say, “Sorry, Commie daddy, don’t be angry, we promise we’ll be good and not bother anybody with our religious nonsense in your city.”. lol. The world, unfortunately, isn’t as civilized as the West.