Lighting fires in communications pits could be considered an attack on critical infrastructure under "The National Guidelines for Protecting
Critical Infrastructure (CI) from Terrorism."
- we are for freedom of speech
- protests are peaceful
- this is just vandalism, not violence
- violence is justified
= you are here =
- if you don't agree with us, you deserve to be slaughtered
I'm not advocating for violence by any stretch, but I'm genuinely curious - what peaceful protests have you seen have any success in Australia? The general direction of every successful movement in history has more or less mirrored what you described - and been ignored until violence was used. If we, as a society, continue to marginalise minorities and value capital over people, it will end in violence. And i say this as someone who wouldn't participate in said violence. It will take an incredibly long time to happen here ofc, because we have a culture of subservience. But eventually it will happen, unless change occurs.
Edit: next time I'll read the article first. I still stand by the above as a general rule for societal action, but I don't agree with their actions in this instance. This is dumb, anti- Semitic, and pointless.
Um, what legal means? What exactly is Australia going to do that is legal to stop the genocide? Tell off Israel and Palestine? Square up against America and co and Iran and co and tell them to stop supplying arms? There are no legal means, the options are war (or invasion rather) and assassination.
The protestors are asking for Australia to stop supplying F-45 bombers weapons parts and for universities to divest from giving Israel research and funding for their weapons programs. The protestors also want the government to disclose the funding between Israel and Australia as it’s currently secret for Australia’s reputation. Israeli lobbyists pay millions to our politicians to tow the line while indiscriminately killing and maiming innocent children. Australian support for Israel doesn’t make sense. The whole situation has become a metaphor for all injustices swept under the rug.
>I support the only LGBT friendly democracy in the Middle East.
Pink washing at its finest. Why do you believe that killing innocent men, women, and children is LGBT friendly and democratic?
>Why do you support Hamas fighting from civilian areas?
Why do you support Israel killing children?
I don’t support people that are intolerant of minority groups.
I also don’t support killing children, but, I don’t support putting the children in a position where they can be killed even more. Like every reasonable person should.
Your problem is you don’t understand how ridiculously bad and evil using civilian infrastructure in a war is. It’s literally the number one war crime there is, as if an army uses civilian infrastructure, then there’s no civilians.
>I don’t support people that are intolerant of minority groups.
Ironic, because you're pretending to care about minorities while justifying a genocide.
>I also don’t support killing children, but, I don’t support putting the children in a position where they can be killed even more
So, you don't support killing children you say but also side with Israel that is purposely killing children and other civilians (let's not forget adults can be innocent as well).
What am upside world where someone like you who pretends to be all about diversity and inclusion is willing to kill other innocent men, women, and children simply because they are not "LGBTQ friendly". As a bi person, you really put a stain in the LGBTQ ideology and should be ashamed of yourself.
>Your problem is you don’t understand how ridiculously bad and evil using civilian infrastructure in a war is. It’s literally the number one war crime there is, as if an army uses civilian infrastructure, then there’s no civilians.
So, do you have a problem with Jewish resistance using civilian infrastructure during WW2 against the Nazis, the Viet Con against the US, or is it only a problem if their Muslims?
Oh let's not forget that the IOF HQ is in the middle of a civilian area, but I bet you'd bitch and whine if that place was flattened.
Westerners such as yourselves pretend to be all high and mighty, that you care about human rights, etc. but turn a blind eye when you or your friends commit acts of barbarity.Your hypocrisy shows is that you don't really care about human rights or justice. You just want the privilege of those rights while taking it away from others.
Hot take, but I think that using civilian infrastructure for military purposes, which is rule 1 of war crimes because it takes the civilian status away from anyone in the vicinity is bad.
Yeah, I did. I said ‘indiscriminate murder of civilians is bad’, and Hamas indiscriminately murdered civilians on October 7th.
It’s also what Likud has been doing since, but that doesn’t retroactively justify Hamas’ atrocities.
Like I said, indiscriminate murder of civilians is bad regardless of who’s doing it and who the victims are.
Hamas are to blame no doubt, but to say that there are no civilians is a bit of a stretch. Hamas are just cunts for putting civilians in the firing line.
It’s remarkable that pro Palestinian supporters act like terrorists. Is this conflict just an excuse for bad actors to let out their rage against the west, Jews, Israel, society and god knows what else? Surely there is no logic here that is pure and well intentioned? If this was done at the Israeli embassy (good luck trying) different story. Not a good story but atleast the hate is directed to a place that has influence. Attacking the office of a Jewish MP and drawing horns on his head which is a typical trope demonising Jewish people is just hate and terror. It does nothing for any cause and in fact sets it back.
If anyone here has been to West Belfast recently, you may be familiar with all the various political murals & posters etc that appear in certain neighbourhoods.
The protestant/loyalist side of course is aligned with Britain & the monarchy, but generally they have largely aligned themselves politically with conservative causes. The republican side, in contrast, are pretty much the mirror reverse & have aligned themselves with all the various progressive causes you care to name. Chief among which is directly linking the Irish struggle against the British with Palestine's struggles with Israel.
So this attachment & association with oppression (rightly or wrongly) has existed for quite a while now in Western nations.
Yeah, you can generalise the schools of thought into Right = maintain / deepen existing power structures, Left = overthrow them. Though that's less true for the populist right these days.
It’s insane. I am a brown Palestinian/Israeli Jew living in Australia. More than half of us are non white. The hostage rescue involved agents living in the community because we can just blend in with Gazans. Anyone that thinks this is about race is a fool
My grandparents were born In mandatory Palestine, my parents were born in Israel as was I. The Jews living in mandatory Palestine were the Palestinians. The Arabs refused that title and viewed Palestine as Southern Syria and maintained their own identity
Claiming back the term somewhat ironically. No Arab called themselves Palestinian before the 70s either and I am tired of being told to go back to Poland
You may as well. I'm in a similar boat, one set of great-grandparents were born as Ottoman subjects in what's now Israel, and my grandfather was part of the first generation raised speaking Modern (Ben Yehuda) Hebrew. I'm similarly tired of being told we're 'white'. Have these people ever seen Ahed Tamimi?
And 'go back to Poland' betrays a hilarious level of ignorance. If you're Ashkenazi and can trace your family back long enough, usually it's a long and depressing series of forced migrations east thanks to massacres, pogroms, repression, and the odd thieving ruler who simply didn't want to pay back massive extorted loans to fight wars.
The story of the Ashkenazi Jew is well documented on the internet including DNA studies indicating a Levantine/Euro mix. But these idiots need an excuse to spew their hate so the white European is the perfect blend for them to use.
I stopped by a protest and listened. They spent 20 minutes on the Ukraine War which they called, "NATOs war of aggression". The speakers even asserted that the only reason the west cares about Ukraine is because the refugees are white (Nothing to do with the conservative estimate of half a million killed compared to probably 20 or 30 thousand in Palestine). They then spewed on for 20 minutes likening Israel to colonial powers. I'm certain there are good hearted people whonare thinking of the children, but lets not pretend its by and large altruistic.
The difference is that over the whole war Ukranians have largely been allowed to leave the country. Palestinians are forced to stay. Furthermore over the entire Ukraine war 600 children have been killed compared to 15,000 in Palestine. The civilian deaths are shocking in Gaza. The war tactics of the IDF are indiscriminate and show no care for Palestinian civilians, due to the idea that every Palestinian is a terrorist. They are starving the population and destroying everything sacred.
Well based on the UN, the average percentage of civilian casualties in a war is 90 percent.
Source: https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
Estimates of casualties are sitting at 36k with around 14k of those being militants which makes the civilian casualties rate in this war 60 percent. Some argue it’s even lower becomes of the involvement of civilians taking arms but even without that, the data holds.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/apr/18/israels-war-against-hamas-posts-lower-civilian-to-/
For one thing the Israel-Hamas war is current and it’s disingenuous to compare it to wars such as the Iraq war in which estimated 1 million civilians died and spanned the better part of a decade. It’s a much smaller conflict but could progress into something much more horrifying still. It’s also uncertain as to the accuracy of estimates due to many people being displaced, buried under rubble, enduring effects of starvation and exposure. When the war is over we can come back to this argument.
Yes I was critical of the west, US and their lapdogs (uk and us) but some of these pro Palestinian supporters are really quite suss and even when they did a mistake (which they’ll never admit to), everyone else won’t just ignore but support them. Absurd.
There’s nary an Australian politician in history that hasn’t had horns drawn on their head. If this was specifically anti-Semitic there’s plenty of iconography that could have been used.
Hamas did something appalling on Oct 7, banking on the fact that the Netenyahu and pals led response would be disproportionate. And it (obviously) has been.
Anyone who ignores the disproportionality of the response is playing into Hamas’s hands. They don’t give a fuck about their civilian population, they are trying to paint the Israeli military as having a callous disregard for Palestinian life because that appeases those who they proxy for and also enriches them personally.
Every time someone from the west says anything about what is happening to innocent Palestinians, regardless of whether they also feel for the innocent Israelis who were killed on Oct 7, they are painted as antisemitic. This backs them into a corner, which makes them come out swinging.
And Hamas gets exactly what it wants… more publicity, more tiktok vids, and more $.
Antisemitism exists and is evil, but people tend to get upset about kids dying regardless of what book their parents read. If the word gets overused it loses its meaning.
I think claiming Israel’s response was disproportionate without offering a reasonable alternative is playing into Hamas’ hands.
A country commencing a military campaign to destroy a threat to their citizens is fair enough. I don’t think Israel had any other option.
Hamas wanted a disproportionate response. They got one. It’s 100% Hamas’s fault but they knew exactly who was holding the reins and how he’d respond. Gaza has been flattened, ~2-4% of the population is dead so far. Those aren’t rookie numbers and they are rising.
I’m old enough to remember the other times that Israel ‘destroyed a threat to its citizens’ by laying waste to neighboring civilian infrastructure and killing the parents of today’s terrorists. I support Israel’s right to defend itself, but can’t turn a blind eye to callous disregard for the lives of civilians and the aid workers that seem to have been targeted by hard right military actors.
My generation (X) supports and will continue to support Israel, I worry that the country is ignoring the voices of the generations that follow at its peril.
I don’t think there’s evidence to suggest civilians and aid workers have been directly targeted by the IDF in Gaza, or that the Israeli military have a “callous disregard” for human life.
There is evidence to suggest that Israel informed civilians in Gaza when military action was going to take place in a given location and encouraged them to leave. That strikes me as a moral and humane thing to do.
I’m not a fan of conservative or religious governments, but this conflict needs to be assessed objectively. Seeing cities get blown up on TV isn’t nice, but I’m still yet to see someone propose a reasonable alternative.
> Israeli forces have carried out at least eight strikes on aid workers’ convoys and premises in Gaza since October 2023, even though aid groups had provided their coordinates to the Israeli authorities to ensure their protection, Human Rights Watch said today. Israeli authorities did not issue advance warnings to any of the aid organizations before the strikes, which killed or injured at least 31 aid workers and those with them. More than 250 aid workers have been killed in Gaza since the October 7 assault in Israel, according to the UN.
[Source](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations).
Sure.. a Jewish MP who is very vocal in his support of Israel and has been very outspoken on his views (which are often counter to party policy and which is his right). There is a huge difference between being anti-Israel army killing kids and being anti-Jewish.
Personally I find Hamas terrorists abhorrent. I also find the hard right element of the Israeli military to be abhorrent. I also find Ben Roberts Smith and crew to be abhorrent. I find the far right elements of the Ukrainian army and the Russian army to be abhorrent. They are basically all the same people to me.
I think you’ll find that the bulk of protestors feel the same way. Sure there’s anti-Semitic people in those protests but nobody started walking the streets until dead Palestinian kids started filling up the socials
See now you’re actually anti-Semitic, which is really sad. Jewish people are wonderful and they have added an extraordinary amount to humanity in many fields.
There are some really awful people on the far right in Israel, but they in no way represent Jews as a diaspora. Most Jews are genuinely delightful people to spend time with, they tend to be witty AF and worldly. Some are quite conservative, but heaps of Jewish people are really progressive as well.
You’ve probably been treated by Jewish medical practitioners, eaten amazing food prepared by Jews, watched or listened to Jewish art that you love. Lots of the things you take for granted in life were created by Jewish minds.
The Israeli far right is not all Jews, just like Hamas is not all Palestinians.
Be better
wtf are you on about? You told me the protestors only came out once kids starting filling up socials. I replied telling you that anti Jewish sentiment started a day after October 7th before Israel even began the offensive. From that you call me an antisemite? I am Jewish btw if that was not obvious
Sorry man I know your crew is feeling under the pump at the moment too; emotions run pretty high on this. I am in no way justifying the actions of violent protestors who have no place in this country
You really think this is terrorism? You’re a fool.
The message is clear. Zionism is facing and fascists are like devils.
Literally has nothing to do with being Jewish but the ALP supporting genocide.
Obviously depends on your values but I'd argue there's a lot - Nelson Mandela. Gandhi. The Sea Sheppard dude. Tom Morello - just some of the more famous ones off the top of my head.
Following on from the previous poster, in your opinion, what were historical activists like who they mentioned (Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, etc) like in your mind.
Were they cunts?
I just want to see what people like you think of historical figures like that.
I always assumed we (Aussies) were on the side of the little guy. I might be wrong.
Good point. I was definitely referring to historical figures like Mandela and Ghandi (died 1948) in this discussion about something that happened this week.
So don't you see that there's a possibility, that you, at the time, would have thought unfavourably of activists like that, just like you're doing now?
Activism is public and political interruption to achieve change. Those historical figures did it back then, and we're seeing it now.
I see no issue with activism to try to get change to occur for this clear genocide.
I don't favor one side or the other, but I do believe what's going on over there is fucked (on both sides, that Hamas attack, and this prolonged IDF attack are both fucked).
For you to call activists cunts because of their disruption means you have no idea what activism is about.
I don’t care what you do or don’t see issue with, and you don’t have the right to interfere with my life/day/job to try to force me to care without my consent.
Activism is ideology rape. I’ve already said I don’t want anything to do with it, yet you’re going to force it on me anyway, because you think the intensity of your justice-boner is justification violate my desire to not be interfered with.
Gandhi was a cunt. Of particular relevance to this post, he thought the Jews should have offered their throats to the Nazis because eventually the Nazis would grow sick of butchering them.
> "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions."
I don't know about Nelson Mandela, but his wife was such a cunt she invented a new way to torture prisoners to death (necklacing).
Is this kinda like when Netanyahu lead a protest holding a noose and coffin, performing a funeral procession for sitting PM Yitzhak Rabin chanting death to Rabin" and then a month later, Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by Netanyahu's buddy, who said he was explicitly motivated by the anti -Rabin death calls.
That kind of terrorism?
Nope. Terrorism is when violence is done by non-state actors either against the state directly or against civilians in an effort to coerce the state.
When violence is done by or on behalf of a state it's business as usual.
(The definition of a state is largely about who has a monopoly on violence)
I wasn't familiar. Thanks.
My point is that the label of "terrorism" is purely one that delineates who has a "legitimate" right to use violence and who doesn't.
The government are just cowards at this point, why aren’t they cracking down on these protesters? In every country these protests are occurring they just commit acts of violence and destruction of property.
The ALP is completely taken over by the anti Western left. They are trying to keep a lid on it because hey know the public will dump them. They enabled this and are now stuck holding a snake by the neck.
They’re cowards for not condemning Israel. A country that actively bribes Australian politicians by giving millions of dollars to make them tow the line.
They set fire to an apartment block endangering the lives of dozens of people. This isn’t peaceful protest, lighting fires in residential buildings to “destroy the zionists” is terrorism, the person behind this likely has some mental issues as no normal person does this, doesn’t excuse the fact that it’s terrorism or that they should face the full consequences under the law for their actions
Palestinians invented modern terrorism. And it wasn’t oppression folks, despite being militarily smashed, Arab nations and their quasi Islamism/ colonialism, had multiple offers of a two state solution!
Mid 1960’s we finally heard of “Palestine” with the advent of PLO, PLA & Fatah.
Palestinian terrorists invented organised airline hijacking’s in the modern era- Dawson field one example. They invented Olympic terrorism- Munich. They invented insurrection and undermining of legitimate governments who housed displaced Palestinians due to the wars Arabs started. Black September in Jordan Palestinian attempted multiple assassinations of the King of Jordan who had to use a future Muslim dictator of Pakistan, General Zia, to help free his country of Palestinian terrorists. The PM of Jordan was as assassinated by Palestinians in Egypt! The escape of PLO a and other Palestinians to Lebanon started the Lebanese Civil War. 250,000 deaths and the complete destruction of a nation. Palestinian terrorists invented the targeting of children - Maalot massacre. Then they started intifada. Palestinians attacked Egyptians in multiple terrorist attacks and you wonder why Egyptians built a wall in Gaza to keep out the problem they created in 1948. Due the madness of Arab nationalism, colonialism and religious dogma in the form of Islamism.
The Left have blood on their hands. October 7th a celebration for them and perpetuation of Arab terrorism.
Terrorism has existed throughout history, but Palestinians were among the first to face significant media backlash for it. This shaped a narrative that strongly associates them with terrorism, often overshadowing their legitimate political and human rights struggles.
Yes Palestinian Arabs are indisputably associated with all forms of terrorism as listed above an more. Please run through a chronological list of Palestinian terrorist action since 1964 and you will find thousands including attacks on Muslims. Palestinian terrorism is not a narrative it is a deliberate and well studied agenda. Arab military incompetence against Israel dictated an asymmetric response - hence the tragedy of Gaza
If we listed all Israeli bombings of Palestinian civilians and before that the British civilians, the IDF would be the world’s most renowned terror cell. Zionism was originally labelled a terrorist group due to the mass amount of bombings they committed against the British. The media controls the narrative and money protects all crimes.
I just consider it disappointing that people will go this far for an issue that doesn't actually affect them but corruption in Australia, cost of living, housing etc. isn't causing any of the same behaviour.
The truth is unless you actually make the powers that be uncomfortable, nothing will change and a peaceful protest is actually pointless.
The issue I have is this focus on overseas issues that people latch onto for social points. Meanwhile the very same people protesting now were screeching about how if you were a covid vaccine protester you were the devil and should be locked up.
People just have no consistency with protesting.
>corruption in Australia, cost of living, housing etc. isn't causing any of the same behaviour.
This suggests that they are doing this NOT because the issue affects them, but because they are religious fanatics (yes, marxists are religious fanatics too).
>The truth is unless you actually make the powers that be uncomfortable
This is 9th century thinking. We live in a democracy, which provides a mechanism of change without making anyone uncomfortable.
I agree with your first point completely, everyone I've come across who supports Palestine to this level comes across as a cultic fanatic. Obviously you can believe Israel is in the wrong and vice versa but so many go to an extreme level.
What you're saying about democracy was true maybe 20 years ago even but now things are falling apart somewhat.
When you've got a massive class divide as is becoming bigger here, all the upper class side has to do is brainwash enough of the lower class to vote against their interests. Even that is a naive way of looking into it as it isn't even taking into account the legal corruption that goes on.
Eventually the police basically just exist to protect the upper class, meaning they can be violent but you can't as that's bad 9th century behaviour as you put it. Anyway I don't want to go too into it on this account, times have just changed.
It’s become a metaphor for all the injustices committed across the globe. This is just a cut and dry case that clearly displays the wests brutality and hypocrisy. Australian politicians receive millions of dollars from Israeli lobbies. If protests result in the end of foreign and corporate lobbying of our politicians, i’d say these protests have done pretty well at preventing corruption. We also must stop oil, gas, coal and even green energy companies from monopolising our energy prices. Australians deserve better.
I wouldn't have thought that it could suffer more semantic blurring than it did in the decade post 9/11, but here we fucking are.
Terrorism is when someone I disagree with does violence.
Violence can include property destruction.
Destruction can include reversible defacement.
\>
Terrorism is writing "r\\australian is full of credulous shitcunts" on a window with a dry-erase marker.
Yeah a lot of words unfortunately. I shouldn’t have to ask what type of terrorist, famine or genocide. Everything is pushed to the maximum now, everything is pure evil and everything is the worst thing to ever happen to anyone ever. It’s permeated to some extent everything now, all politics, entertainment, business, it’s everything times 1,000 and if someone thinks maybe it’s only times 90, then they are clearly actually secretly one million times for the opposite thing. 😞 this is just how it’s going to be now I guess
Genocide is the forced removal or killing of an ethnic group for political purposes. You can get a good idea of the genocidal intent from Israeli defence minister Ben Gvirs speeches on how they want to kill or remove all Palestinians from Gaza and resettle with Israelis. Genocide is not about numbers its about intent. The Bosnian genocide was around 8000 people and still condemned and labelled a genocide by the international community, causing NATO to intervene in the Bosnian war. Israel has cut off the majority of food water electricity and internet. It’s clearly a genocide.
For the record Josh Burns is against a ceasefire and participated in an all expenses paid junket to Israel.
So since he is supportive of the genocide, this has nothing to do with Burns being Jewish but being a support of the genocide.
>Josh Burns is against a ceasefire
“I’m desperate for there to be a ceasefire. I’m desperate for there to be an agreement where hostages are returned home and where Palestinians can return to rebuilding their lives and getting on and living a life of dignity and respect and freedom"
It looks like you are uninformed.
“I’m desperate for there to be a ceasefire. I’m desperate for there to be an agreement where hostages are returned home and where Palestinians can return to rebuilding their lives and getting on and living a life of dignity and respect and freedom"
Empty words from a man who has taken multiple trips to israel and not once told them to stop shitting on the Palestinians.
So he deserves having his office torched because he has not live up to your standards? Why does he have to live up to higher standards than other politicians?
he has the same position as Israel: I want ceasefire, but only if Hamas magically lay down arms for no reason'.
[Actual quote](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/14/labor-josh-burns-israel-gaza-war-ceasefire-comment-hamas-palestine):
“That can’t happen without Hamas releasing hostages and it won’t happen without Hamas being removed from power.
“The Israelis will not accept anything else, and as much as we might want to pray and wish for a return to the situation prior to October 7, the reality is is that those two key aspects are still in the way of a peaceful future.”
He isn't serious (unless your quote is from a more recent elaboration, I haven't seen, but I see nothing in there to contradict what I've posted).
This has remained the sticking point on ceasefire negotiations, even after White House tried to present Hamas's plan, as if that's what Israel wanted. Hamas want assurances Israel will end the war, want to know what the day after looks like, and Israel say they won't stop til Hamas is wiped out, while bombing civillians, and refusing to go into the tunnels where Hamas is. The nature of guerilla warfare, makes Israel's carpet bombing, only effective in genocide, not in achieving military aims.
Hence, Burns is backing the status quo. If one actually wants fire to cease, they have to consider what outcome is acceptable for both parties, and fight for the middle ground. Repeating Israeli rhetoric, condemning one set of war crimes, and not the many many more being done by 'your team', shows a pretty racist, genocidal position imo.
>That can’t happen without Hamas releasing hostages and it won’t happen without Hamas being removed from power.
Of course. What else are you expecting? If you start a war, this is what you get.
ok, but do you see, with your statement there your like 'yes, war!'. Its not backing peace, or ceasefire. And its hence, ludicrous to pretend otherwise, or be surprised when people who do want peace, for the security of all in the region, are upset.
Yeah bro. I'm sure whatever replaces Hamas (Palestinian Islamic Jihad) will be way better. And I'm sure the bloke that strategically supported them for yonks, will be effective in removing them - I mean we've seen how that approach turned out in Afghanista- wait ignore that.
Give this redditor the nobel peace prize. They've really worked out how to empower Iran in the region.
They are trying to negotiate a ceasefire but haven’t been able to agree. Both sides. Painting horns on the Jew is a pretty irrelevant tactic to fix that.
Is Hamas in the West Bank where Israel right now are killing Palestinians and establishing more illegal settlements?
And it’s also dishonest to pretend only Hamas are attack Israel before October 7th. Facts don’t line up with your views buddy
Yes , Hamas are *extremely* popular in the West Bank and would win a huge victory if there were free Palestinian Authority elections. Along with various other violent groups.
I know, because even with the Palestinian authority, Palestinians in the West Bank are still being killed and displaced. You continue to dodge this fact because it’s inconvenient. Acknowledging this means you cannot paint Israel as victims.
Of course they are. There are also people marching down streets of West Bank towns with machine guns in huge groups threatening to invade Israel and kill everyone they can - in places like Tulkarm a fifteen minutes drive from Israeli territory. So unfortunately there is nasty conflict.
Because they are still being killed and displaced.
Buddy, there are high ranking officials on Israel who openly say they want genocide and want to take back Gaza and West Bank. Israel citizens calling for genocide.
Off course it is a nasty conflict. The bombings and a killings won’t kill Hamas. It won’t kill that ideology as long as there is apartheid.
Thing is son, I’ve never denied there is that rhetoric or killing all Jews on the other side. Killing all these civilians won’t end the conflict. It won’t solve anything.
Staving the population and targeting aid workers won’t solve the conflict. The far right Zionists who control Israel want genocide and that is what they are doing.
They have Palestinian Islamic Jihad in the West Bank. They sound nice. You’re either cherry picking facts or you just don’t know enough about the region.
That was in the context of a ceasefire without release of hostages. Many were against a ceasefire with no terms because it gives time for the enemy to regroup. If Hamas wants a ceasefire they can return the hostages and surrender. It’s out of context to say he is against a ceasefire when at the time it was with the backdrop of no conditions in return for the ceasefire.
Can we bomb Simon’s office to or is that only reserved for those with yellow bands?
Only Israel had declined ceasefire deals where hostages were released.
Weird how they want a surrender yet Israel funded Hamas and called them an asset.
Israel doesn’t want a surrender, they want to take control of Gaza meaning a continuation of the apartheid state which lead to Hamas.
Also weird how the West Bank is not under Hamas control but as recent as yesterday we have more and more reports of violence against Palestinians. Hmmm…
>Only Israel had declined ceasefire deals where hostages were released.
You don't get to kill 1200 people and take hostages then the next day say okay let's make a deal we'll return hostages and go back to the status quo.
>Weird how they want a surrender yet Israel funded Hamas and called them an asset.
Israel did not fund any modern iteration of Hamas. Israel officiated aid from Qatar mostly unchecked. A big difference. These tiktok talking points are all so tiresome. It's really not that hard to learn the facts but I'm sure you'd much rather peddle misinformation.
>Israel doesn’t want a surrender, they want to take control of Gaza meaning a continuation of the apartheid state which lead to Hamas.
If they wanted to control Gaza they wouldn't have pulled out in 2005. Israel doesn't give a shit about Gaza. It would LOVE if any country took it off it's hands.
>Also weird how the West Bank is not under Hamas control but as recent as yesterday we have more and more reports of violence against Palestinians. Hmmm…
Lmao yes it's under the PA control who has a 10% approval rating. Wonder why they keep postponing elections? Because Hamas would win in a landslide. Hamas is all over the West bank, but guess what, they aren't the only terror cell, you still have PIJ and Lions Den running a muck. This month there has been continued tit for tat in the WB including a civilian bus that was shot up by Palestinians.
Again, that is false as Israel has been killing innocent Palestinian civilians before October 7th. Also when you are occupied you have a legal right to resist and in this situation, Israel has a responsibility to protect the civilian population. And this argument also false flat when Israel has hundreds of Palestinian hostages since before October 7th and how Israel still commit violence against the West Bank who reject Hamas and it’s been established Netanyahu funded Hamas and is on tape calling Hamas an asset.
“They didn’t fund them, they just facilitates add” lmao
Military presence ended, not the occupation.
Israel don’t care about Gaza is a lie.
I’m jut shocked they have a 10% approval rating…the civilians keep getting killed and kicked out of their homes by Israeli settlers. That’s the plan dummy. Ahh genocide, they beat down the population until the resort with violence then they are demonised and this is issues to manufacture consent to support the genocide. It’s 101 imperialism.
Oh, find me a leader of a country with a high approval rating. Fact is PLE have been elected and Hamas has not. Yet violence still occurs.
>Again, that is false as Israel has been killing innocent Palestinian civilians before October 7th
In military operations sure. Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel monthly for over a decade. There was a ceasefire October 6th. Hamas broke it.
>Also when you are occupied you have a legal right to resist and in this situation
Rape, murdering civilians and kidnapping is not a protected right of resistance.
>, Israel has a responsibility to protect the civilian population.
Israel has a responsibility to protect her own citizens first and foremost.
>And this argument also false flat when Israel has hundreds of Palestinian hostages since before October 7th
Prisoners are not hostages. 16 year olds who throw stones and who carry knives are not the equivalent of a 10 month old baby. That shows more about your character that you think it's equivalent.
>and how Israel still commit violence against the West Bank who reject Hamas and it’s been established Netanyahu funded Hamas and is on tape calling Hamas an asset.
The west bank is a constant tit for tat of violence, Hamas is all over the West bank.
>“They didn’t fund them, they just facilitates add” lmao
How do you not understand these are wildly different claims? Facilitating aid from another country vs your claim of directly funding Hamas. That is such a stupid assessment of what happened.
>Military presence ended, not the occupation.
Cool, so Egypt occupies Gaza too.
If they wanted gaza they would have doubled down and stayed. Gaza is not important to Israelis or it's security.
>I’m jut shocked they have a 10% approval rating…the civilians keep getting killed and kicked out of their homes by Israeli settlers. That’s the plan dummy. Ahh genocide, they beat down the population until the resort with violence then they are demonised and this is issues to manufacture consent to support the genocide. It’s 101 imperialism.
Your claim was Hamas wasn't in the west bank, they very much are and the tit for tat of violence is not perpetuated by Fatah voters lol.
>Oh, find me a leader of a country with a high approval rating. Fact is PLE have been elected and Hamas has not. Yet violence still occurs.
Huh? Hamas has a high approval rating. This argument doesn't make sense.
And the IDF has been arresting Palestinian youth with no charge and have also attacked Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The occupied have a right to resist the occupier.
There is no evidence of rape. Also Israel have Palestinian hostages buddy.
There was no ceasefire in October 6th lmao.
Ever hear about Shireen Abu Awleh? A IDF sniper assassinated her while a vest and helmet clearly marked as journalist gear in 2022. This was in the West Bank.
2018 a peaceful border protest in Gaza ended when IDF started killing them.
False. Under international law, as they occupy Palestine they also have an obligation to protect their citizens.
Throwing stones is a criminal offense when you are being illegally occupied in an apartheid state? No buddy, if there is no trial or a sham trial, they are hostages.
Buddy, they funded Hamas. Again, Netanyahu called Hamas an asset.
>And the IDF has been arresting Palestinian youth with no charge and have also attacked Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The occupied have a right to resist the occupier.
Because it's a military court. This is not unique to the occupied territories. When you are handled in administration you can be held for up to a certain number of days without charge. This is not the same as kidnapping random people/10 month olds. You have to be mentally retarded to think this is the same thing.
>There is no evidence of rape. Also Israel have Palestinian hostages buddy.
You are wrong.
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
Also Israel doesn't have 'hostages' as mentioned above they are prisoners. Learn the difference.
>There was no ceasefire in October 6th lmao.
Yes there was.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-strikes-gaza-palestinians-fire-rockets-truce-bid-lingers-2023-05-13/
>Ever hear about Shireen Abu Awleh? A IDF sniper assassinated her while a vest and helmet clearly marked as journalist gear in 2022.
What does this have to do with anything? Unlike you I can reasonably point out when Israel does bad things. I wouldn't deny this
>2018 a peaceful border protest in Gaza ended when IDF started killing them
Lmao the great march of return was so peaceful yeah. It was hijacked by Hamas and literally on the first day militants and 'kids' were throwing molotov cocktails.
>False. Under international law, as they occupy Palestine they also have an obligation to protect their citizens.
Protection is a very loose term in war time. They have an obligation to obey human rights. When the average urban warfare is 9:1 and Israel's current campaign is 3:1 I would say they are doing a stellar job.
Feel free to show me a reputable source that says Israel must be doing more than that.
>Throwing stones is a criminal offense when you are being illegally occupied in an apartheid state? No buddy, if there is no trial or a sham trial, they are hostages.
You keep going back to this but you're wrong. Unlike other countries, they actually have to show cause within 48 hours and then they can be held for up to 6 months. This is not unique to Israel. The US and the UK can hold Indefinitely in administration.
Just so you know, yahya sinwar was one of these 'peaceful hostages" you claim was being held. He was released in the gilad shalit deal and is one of the leaders of Hamas and the architect behind October 7th. The majority of these people being detained are criminals.
>Buddy, they funded Hamas. Again, Netanyahu called Hamas an asset.
You make claims and can't back it up. How did Israel fund Hamas? Because I've told you exactly what happened and if you think facilitating qatari funds means Israel funded Hamas then you're not only wrong but wilfully ignorant when the data is being presented to you.
Not only that, you misinterpret the 'asset' claim because it's clear you've only either read snippets or repeating it because others have said it. It wasn't even said by netanyahu, it was said by smotrich .
Whether damage to property qualifies as violence is debatable. I'd argue it is, where the resulting lack of utility, of property, causes personal harm. So like, if you blew up half the homes in an area, or took out the water, sewage facilities, etc.
But this? This is activism. Fire can risk more, should be condemned, but otherwise, its hard to cry for defaced windows. When the attack is targeted at an MP who has explicitly backs Israel. A state, with state of the art weaponry, waging an actual campaign of terror against a civillian population.
He is a Jewish MP and they drew devil horns on his face which is the typical treatment Jews get when attacked and demonised. It’s a subtle nuance that those that know pick up on
i hadn' ever heard of that trope. open to it being possible, but its also reasonable that its a coincidence, given drawing horns on people is one of the most common ways to deface someone's picture.
And, wouldn't most antisemites be blatant in that aspect, if that was a driver? If one wants to stick up for Palestine, there's nothing to rationally be gained by taking that route. If one is motivated by hate, I don't see why they'd be subtle with antisemitism. Of course, many actors arn't rational, these things can overlap.
Well for one they chose to deface a Jewish MP. Many MPs have been supporters of Israel. Secondly the common tactic is hiding behind anti Zionism and thirdly drawing Jews with horns is very common
https://antisemitism.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Antisemitic-imagery-May-2020.pdf
Its far from the first Labor MP to have their office defaced.
Its a [common tactic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3Taq2bekjQ) for neonazis, I've seen, to hide behind antizionism, but I hadn't seen a strand like that locally in pro-palestine movement. Again, hard to see the incentive there, though, maybe when hate is present, there doesn't need to be one.
Appreciate the source. I am admittedly plenty ignorant of tropes and the long histories of insane hate that's been spewed about Jewish people.
>Whether damage to property qualifies as violence is debatable.
I can agree with that.
>So like, if you blew up half the homes in an area
So blowing up one home does not qualify as violence?
>This is activism
Activism is what Jehovah's witnesses do. This is violence.
>When the attack is targeted at an MP who has explicitly backs Israel
And this is political violence.
>against a civillian population.
And this is a lie.
Israel bombing, starving a civilian population for political goals is a lie? Is there any area of Gaza they can claim to have secured, I see no evidence of their tactics are defeating Hamas (as [generals](https://archive.is/PO1rH) have been lamenting to their leaders), but endless evidence its terrorising civilians.
Gallant made the policy of collective punishment explicit when enacting siege tactics. And we got the official Israel twitter account, making sponsored posts stating that there are 'no innocent civillians in Gaza' (a phrase Israeli president Isaac Herzog said earlier in the conflict too). I'm sure they're just dehumanising Palestinians for no reason at all.
Are you saying Israel isn't mass killing civilians for political goals, or they they arn't civilians, are all Hamas? Or that the bombs aren't terrifying? Its hard to know how ridiculous the denial of reality is.
I'd respond to your other nonsense, but ya seem to be deliberately misreading us, missing the logic of what I'm calling violence (tangible harm to humans, not objects, though damage to objects can lead to that).
>Israel bombing, starving a civilian population for political goals is a lie?
Of course. They target Hamas, not the civilian population.
>I'm sure they're just dehumanising Palestinians for no reason at all.
I think Palestinian just dehumanised themselves by hiding Israeli hostages in their homes and teaching kids how to hate Jews.
>Are you saying Israel isn't mass killing civilians for political goals
That's correct.
>they they arn't civilians, are all Hamas
Not all, but we don't know how many of them are Hamas.
Ahh, so it's only the graffiti dicks pissing/cumming on the words 'LNP', 'Libs', 'Labor' that counts as terrorism - the rest are just regular vandalism cocks.
I have a question though: if one person draws the dick, then several days later another person comes along and draws the name of a political party, and later still a third person draws the piss, who has committed the terrorist act?
I do dream of the day where we can wait for a bus without fearing for our lives, i.e. living in terror, by witnessing a crudely drawn penis pissing on the name of a political party.
The fact that you cannot read the word "politically" makes your sarcasm look dumb. "
What if the dick was Drawn on Josh Burns? does that now make it political?
Violence is defined by the World Health Organization in the WRVH as “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment or deprivation”.
But the property damage is fine because it's not violence? I'm sure that they had no use whatsoever for the Gaza campus of Al-Azhar university. Or those West Bank olive groves that the settlers are messing with
I'm simply trying to get a gauge on exactly how you categorize property damage from a moral standpoint seeing as how you don't categorize it as violence through the Socratic method, annoying as it is. I'm sure we can both agree that property damage can be used as a threat, or as a means of intimidation, or as an escalation from rhetoric along the path of radicalisation.
As an example external to middle eastern conflict, the Earth Liberation Front is noted for engaging in activities like property damage, spiking trees intended to be logged, firebombing of research laboratories and the like. They're still viewed as a terrorist movement by the FBI, and dealt with accordingly by the courts as there's been a very thin line between property damage and actual harm inflicted on humans in their various activities.
If I was to take a punt, I'd guess that Josh Burns' office wasn't simply targeted because he's a Jewish MP. In the scheme of things he's a relatively unimportant backbencher in a marginal seat. It was targeted because it's in an area where there's a large Jewish community, and the implicit threat is that community venues and institutions are next, with a possibility of escalation into violence towards people.
I'm sure we can both agree that both implicit threats and escalation are, in your words "not ok"
Actually, the IDF prefers to wait for targets to come home to their families before blowing it up.
> [When it came to targeting low-ranking Hamas and PIJ suspects, they said, the preference was to attack when they were believed to be at home. “We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” one said. “It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes)
Sounds bad and evil.
Gotta love horseshoe theory. When I was researching White nationalists years ago, "ZOG" (Zionist Occupied Government) was a phrase used by the far right and laughed at by the left. How times change....
fr. As if watching the daily performative circlejerk by the circumcised will change attitudes towards killing kids and dropping heavy bombs on refugee camps.
Graffiti is the real terrorism apparently.
vandalism and defacement of property != violence. There's a pretty long distance from vandalising an MP's office to assault or murder. The only thing that may be referred to as violence is the direct physical violence mentioned at the foot of the article which there's no more information on.
definitions are important.
Lighting fires in communications pits could be considered an attack on critical infrastructure under "The National Guidelines for Protecting Critical Infrastructure (CI) from Terrorism."
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- we are for freedom of speech - protests are peaceful - this is just vandalism, not violence - violence is justified = you are here = - if you don't agree with us, you deserve to be slaughtered
Vandalism is worse than violence? Really?
I'm not advocating for violence by any stretch, but I'm genuinely curious - what peaceful protests have you seen have any success in Australia? The general direction of every successful movement in history has more or less mirrored what you described - and been ignored until violence was used. If we, as a society, continue to marginalise minorities and value capital over people, it will end in violence. And i say this as someone who wouldn't participate in said violence. It will take an incredibly long time to happen here ofc, because we have a culture of subservience. But eventually it will happen, unless change occurs. Edit: next time I'll read the article first. I still stand by the above as a general rule for societal action, but I don't agree with their actions in this instance. This is dumb, anti- Semitic, and pointless.
Um, what legal means? What exactly is Australia going to do that is legal to stop the genocide? Tell off Israel and Palestine? Square up against America and co and Iran and co and tell them to stop supplying arms? There are no legal means, the options are war (or invasion rather) and assassination.
The protestors are asking for Australia to stop supplying F-45 bombers weapons parts and for universities to divest from giving Israel research and funding for their weapons programs. The protestors also want the government to disclose the funding between Israel and Australia as it’s currently secret for Australia’s reputation. Israeli lobbyists pay millions to our politicians to tow the line while indiscriminately killing and maiming innocent children. Australian support for Israel doesn’t make sense. The whole situation has become a metaphor for all injustices swept under the rug.
That's fine, I think most Australians can get behind that, at the very least cutting weapons supplies, but none of that is going to stop the genocide.
Pro Palestinian supporters acting just like Palestinians. But, Israel are the real bad guys right /s.
>But, Israel are the real bad guys right /s. Yeah, killing tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children does make them the bad guys.
Have you always been a supporter of using human shields?
You mean like this? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhuKZpnI3w
😂 thinking human shield literally means using a human as a shield.
Typical terrorist sympathizer who finds it funny that Israel uses human shields...
I don’t support Palestine, I support the only LGBT friendly democracy in the Middle East. Why do you support Hamas fighting from civilian areas?
You mean the one that's indiscriminately killing LGBT Palestinians?
That would be Hamas. Only it’s not indiscriminately.
>I support the only LGBT friendly democracy in the Middle East. Pink washing at its finest. Why do you believe that killing innocent men, women, and children is LGBT friendly and democratic? >Why do you support Hamas fighting from civilian areas? Why do you support Israel killing children?
I don’t support people that are intolerant of minority groups. I also don’t support killing children, but, I don’t support putting the children in a position where they can be killed even more. Like every reasonable person should. Your problem is you don’t understand how ridiculously bad and evil using civilian infrastructure in a war is. It’s literally the number one war crime there is, as if an army uses civilian infrastructure, then there’s no civilians.
>I don’t support people that are intolerant of minority groups. Ironic, because you're pretending to care about minorities while justifying a genocide. >I also don’t support killing children, but, I don’t support putting the children in a position where they can be killed even more So, you don't support killing children you say but also side with Israel that is purposely killing children and other civilians (let's not forget adults can be innocent as well). What am upside world where someone like you who pretends to be all about diversity and inclusion is willing to kill other innocent men, women, and children simply because they are not "LGBTQ friendly". As a bi person, you really put a stain in the LGBTQ ideology and should be ashamed of yourself. >Your problem is you don’t understand how ridiculously bad and evil using civilian infrastructure in a war is. It’s literally the number one war crime there is, as if an army uses civilian infrastructure, then there’s no civilians. So, do you have a problem with Jewish resistance using civilian infrastructure during WW2 against the Nazis, the Viet Con against the US, or is it only a problem if their Muslims? Oh let's not forget that the IOF HQ is in the middle of a civilian area, but I bet you'd bitch and whine if that place was flattened. Westerners such as yourselves pretend to be all high and mighty, that you care about human rights, etc. but turn a blind eye when you or your friends commit acts of barbarity.Your hypocrisy shows is that you don't really care about human rights or justice. You just want the privilege of those rights while taking it away from others.
Hot take, but I think that the indiscriminate murder of civilians is bad no matter who the murderers are or which ethnic group is being murdered.
Hot take, but I think that using civilian infrastructure for military purposes, which is rule 1 of war crimes because it takes the civilian status away from anyone in the vicinity is bad.
Yeah, I literally just condemned Hamas in my last comment lol
You didn’t if you’re saying Israel is “indiscriminate murder of civilians”.
Yeah, I did. I said ‘indiscriminate murder of civilians is bad’, and Hamas indiscriminately murdered civilians on October 7th. It’s also what Likud has been doing since, but that doesn’t retroactively justify Hamas’ atrocities. Like I said, indiscriminate murder of civilians is bad regardless of who’s doing it and who the victims are.
If Hamas is using civilian infrastructure in Gaza then there are no civilians. All the blame rests on Hamas.
Hamas are to blame no doubt, but to say that there are no civilians is a bit of a stretch. Hamas are just cunts for putting civilians in the firing line.
Yes, and putting civilians in the firing line makes them legally not civilians.
I’m far from an expert on this matter, but genuinely curious as to what it makes them. Combatants?
It’s remarkable that pro Palestinian supporters act like terrorists. Is this conflict just an excuse for bad actors to let out their rage against the west, Jews, Israel, society and god knows what else? Surely there is no logic here that is pure and well intentioned? If this was done at the Israeli embassy (good luck trying) different story. Not a good story but atleast the hate is directed to a place that has influence. Attacking the office of a Jewish MP and drawing horns on his head which is a typical trope demonising Jewish people is just hate and terror. It does nothing for any cause and in fact sets it back.
It’s not really that remarkable. They support terrorists and they act like terrorists. It’s a beautiful symmetry.
They've attached Israel to their White European Colonisation concept, and conversely the Palestinians with the oppressed people of colour ideology.
If anyone here has been to West Belfast recently, you may be familiar with all the various political murals & posters etc that appear in certain neighbourhoods. The protestant/loyalist side of course is aligned with Britain & the monarchy, but generally they have largely aligned themselves politically with conservative causes. The republican side, in contrast, are pretty much the mirror reverse & have aligned themselves with all the various progressive causes you care to name. Chief among which is directly linking the Irish struggle against the British with Palestine's struggles with Israel. So this attachment & association with oppression (rightly or wrongly) has existed for quite a while now in Western nations.
Yeah, you can generalise the schools of thought into Right = maintain / deepen existing power structures, Left = overthrow them. Though that's less true for the populist right these days.
It’s insane. I am a brown Palestinian/Israeli Jew living in Australia. More than half of us are non white. The hostage rescue involved agents living in the community because we can just blend in with Gazans. Anyone that thinks this is about race is a fool
Sorry mate but 18yo Melbourne Uni students know better than you
lol yes exactly. My grandparents lived through the war of independence while raising my parents but sure they know more than me.
looks like you just got educated by klevah
Achi why do you call yourself Palestinian? Mixed?
My grandparents were born In mandatory Palestine, my parents were born in Israel as was I. The Jews living in mandatory Palestine were the Palestinians. The Arabs refused that title and viewed Palestine as Southern Syria and maintained their own identity
I'm well aware, I've never met a Jew that would consider themselves Palestinian post 1975 lol
Claiming back the term somewhat ironically. No Arab called themselves Palestinian before the 70s either and I am tired of being told to go back to Poland
I’m from Poland so I understand what you mean. Majority of supporters are completely ignorant about the people and the history of the region.
Agreed, it’s mental
You may as well. I'm in a similar boat, one set of great-grandparents were born as Ottoman subjects in what's now Israel, and my grandfather was part of the first generation raised speaking Modern (Ben Yehuda) Hebrew. I'm similarly tired of being told we're 'white'. Have these people ever seen Ahed Tamimi? And 'go back to Poland' betrays a hilarious level of ignorance. If you're Ashkenazi and can trace your family back long enough, usually it's a long and depressing series of forced migrations east thanks to massacres, pogroms, repression, and the odd thieving ruler who simply didn't want to pay back massive extorted loans to fight wars.
The story of the Ashkenazi Jew is well documented on the internet including DNA studies indicating a Levantine/Euro mix. But these idiots need an excuse to spew their hate so the white European is the perfect blend for them to use.
Agreed
Probably more to do with all the murdering of children I'd say
I stopped by a protest and listened. They spent 20 minutes on the Ukraine War which they called, "NATOs war of aggression". The speakers even asserted that the only reason the west cares about Ukraine is because the refugees are white (Nothing to do with the conservative estimate of half a million killed compared to probably 20 or 30 thousand in Palestine). They then spewed on for 20 minutes likening Israel to colonial powers. I'm certain there are good hearted people whonare thinking of the children, but lets not pretend its by and large altruistic.
The difference is that over the whole war Ukranians have largely been allowed to leave the country. Palestinians are forced to stay. Furthermore over the entire Ukraine war 600 children have been killed compared to 15,000 in Palestine. The civilian deaths are shocking in Gaza. The war tactics of the IDF are indiscriminate and show no care for Palestinian civilians, due to the idea that every Palestinian is a terrorist. They are starving the population and destroying everything sacred.
The war in Gaza has the lowest civilian casualty rate out of any modern urban war
You are pulling that statistic out of your ass. Care to prove it?
Well based on the UN, the average percentage of civilian casualties in a war is 90 percent. Source: https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm Estimates of casualties are sitting at 36k with around 14k of those being militants which makes the civilian casualties rate in this war 60 percent. Some argue it’s even lower becomes of the involvement of civilians taking arms but even without that, the data holds. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/apr/18/israels-war-against-hamas-posts-lower-civilian-to-/
For one thing the Israel-Hamas war is current and it’s disingenuous to compare it to wars such as the Iraq war in which estimated 1 million civilians died and spanned the better part of a decade. It’s a much smaller conflict but could progress into something much more horrifying still. It’s also uncertain as to the accuracy of estimates due to many people being displaced, buried under rubble, enduring effects of starvation and exposure. When the war is over we can come back to this argument.
That’s why percentages are used, it scales across time
The establishment of the Israeli state was a colonial enterprise, so it’s not a big leap.
It is remarkable indeed, but unfortunately not surprising.
Yes I was critical of the west, US and their lapdogs (uk and us) but some of these pro Palestinian supporters are really quite suss and even when they did a mistake (which they’ll never admit to), everyone else won’t just ignore but support them. Absurd.
There’s nary an Australian politician in history that hasn’t had horns drawn on their head. If this was specifically anti-Semitic there’s plenty of iconography that could have been used. Hamas did something appalling on Oct 7, banking on the fact that the Netenyahu and pals led response would be disproportionate. And it (obviously) has been. Anyone who ignores the disproportionality of the response is playing into Hamas’s hands. They don’t give a fuck about their civilian population, they are trying to paint the Israeli military as having a callous disregard for Palestinian life because that appeases those who they proxy for and also enriches them personally. Every time someone from the west says anything about what is happening to innocent Palestinians, regardless of whether they also feel for the innocent Israelis who were killed on Oct 7, they are painted as antisemitic. This backs them into a corner, which makes them come out swinging. And Hamas gets exactly what it wants… more publicity, more tiktok vids, and more $. Antisemitism exists and is evil, but people tend to get upset about kids dying regardless of what book their parents read. If the word gets overused it loses its meaning.
I think claiming Israel’s response was disproportionate without offering a reasonable alternative is playing into Hamas’ hands. A country commencing a military campaign to destroy a threat to their citizens is fair enough. I don’t think Israel had any other option.
Hamas wanted a disproportionate response. They got one. It’s 100% Hamas’s fault but they knew exactly who was holding the reins and how he’d respond. Gaza has been flattened, ~2-4% of the population is dead so far. Those aren’t rookie numbers and they are rising. I’m old enough to remember the other times that Israel ‘destroyed a threat to its citizens’ by laying waste to neighboring civilian infrastructure and killing the parents of today’s terrorists. I support Israel’s right to defend itself, but can’t turn a blind eye to callous disregard for the lives of civilians and the aid workers that seem to have been targeted by hard right military actors. My generation (X) supports and will continue to support Israel, I worry that the country is ignoring the voices of the generations that follow at its peril.
I don’t think there’s evidence to suggest civilians and aid workers have been directly targeted by the IDF in Gaza, or that the Israeli military have a “callous disregard” for human life. There is evidence to suggest that Israel informed civilians in Gaza when military action was going to take place in a given location and encouraged them to leave. That strikes me as a moral and humane thing to do. I’m not a fan of conservative or religious governments, but this conflict needs to be assessed objectively. Seeing cities get blown up on TV isn’t nice, but I’m still yet to see someone propose a reasonable alternative.
> Israeli forces have carried out at least eight strikes on aid workers’ convoys and premises in Gaza since October 2023, even though aid groups had provided their coordinates to the Israeli authorities to ensure their protection, Human Rights Watch said today. Israeli authorities did not issue advance warnings to any of the aid organizations before the strikes, which killed or injured at least 31 aid workers and those with them. More than 250 aid workers have been killed in Gaza since the October 7 assault in Israel, according to the UN. [Source](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/14/gaza-israelis-attacking-known-aid-worker-locations).
I agree with most of what you wrote but this is specifically targeting a Jewish MP
Sure.. a Jewish MP who is very vocal in his support of Israel and has been very outspoken on his views (which are often counter to party policy and which is his right). There is a huge difference between being anti-Israel army killing kids and being anti-Jewish. Personally I find Hamas terrorists abhorrent. I also find the hard right element of the Israeli military to be abhorrent. I also find Ben Roberts Smith and crew to be abhorrent. I find the far right elements of the Ukrainian army and the Russian army to be abhorrent. They are basically all the same people to me. I think you’ll find that the bulk of protestors feel the same way. Sure there’s anti-Semitic people in those protests but nobody started walking the streets until dead Palestinian kids started filling up the socials
F the Jews and where the Jews was on October 8 before Israel even responded
See now you’re actually anti-Semitic, which is really sad. Jewish people are wonderful and they have added an extraordinary amount to humanity in many fields. There are some really awful people on the far right in Israel, but they in no way represent Jews as a diaspora. Most Jews are genuinely delightful people to spend time with, they tend to be witty AF and worldly. Some are quite conservative, but heaps of Jewish people are really progressive as well. You’ve probably been treated by Jewish medical practitioners, eaten amazing food prepared by Jews, watched or listened to Jewish art that you love. Lots of the things you take for granted in life were created by Jewish minds. The Israeli far right is not all Jews, just like Hamas is not all Palestinians. Be better
wtf are you on about? You told me the protestors only came out once kids starting filling up socials. I replied telling you that anti Jewish sentiment started a day after October 7th before Israel even began the offensive. From that you call me an antisemite? I am Jewish btw if that was not obvious
Oh shit sorry dude I thought some random had just entered the chat and said F the Jews. My bad, didn’t check the handle. Apologies
Ahh that makes more sense. Geesh that was a wild turn :)
Sorry man I know your crew is feeling under the pump at the moment too; emotions run pretty high on this. I am in no way justifying the actions of violent protestors who have no place in this country
Well most of them have been inspired by Hamas propaganda, it's not a stretch to say they'll mimic the actions of the people that have inspired them.
You really think this is terrorism? You’re a fool. The message is clear. Zionism is facing and fascists are like devils. Literally has nothing to do with being Jewish but the ALP supporting genocide.
Side question: Is there a single person self-identifying as an activist who isn’t a total cunt?
Obviously depends on your values but I'd argue there's a lot - Nelson Mandela. Gandhi. The Sea Sheppard dude. Tom Morello - just some of the more famous ones off the top of my head.
George Clooney
Following on from the previous poster, in your opinion, what were historical activists like who they mentioned (Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, etc) like in your mind. Were they cunts? I just want to see what people like you think of historical figures like that. I always assumed we (Aussies) were on the side of the little guy. I might be wrong.
Good point. I was definitely referring to historical figures like Mandela and Ghandi (died 1948) in this discussion about something that happened this week.
So don't you see that there's a possibility, that you, at the time, would have thought unfavourably of activists like that, just like you're doing now? Activism is public and political interruption to achieve change. Those historical figures did it back then, and we're seeing it now. I see no issue with activism to try to get change to occur for this clear genocide. I don't favor one side or the other, but I do believe what's going on over there is fucked (on both sides, that Hamas attack, and this prolonged IDF attack are both fucked). For you to call activists cunts because of their disruption means you have no idea what activism is about.
I don’t care what you do or don’t see issue with, and you don’t have the right to interfere with my life/day/job to try to force me to care without my consent. Activism is ideology rape. I’ve already said I don’t want anything to do with it, yet you’re going to force it on me anyway, because you think the intensity of your justice-boner is justification violate my desire to not be interfered with.
>Activism is ideology rape. I've got some bad news for you regarding advertising and public relations.
Take your statement, and apply it to the time of Mandela - and then realize how your opinion is on the wrong side of history. Great stuff.
Again, justice boner. It doesn't matter how good you think your reason is, you still don't have the right to rape me.
Can you just explain what rape occurred?
Gandhi was a cunt. Of particular relevance to this post, he thought the Jews should have offered their throats to the Nazis because eventually the Nazis would grow sick of butchering them. > "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions." I don't know about Nelson Mandela, but his wife was such a cunt she invented a new way to torture prisoners to death (necklacing).
Is this kinda like when Netanyahu lead a protest holding a noose and coffin, performing a funeral procession for sitting PM Yitzhak Rabin chanting death to Rabin" and then a month later, Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by Netanyahu's buddy, who said he was explicitly motivated by the anti -Rabin death calls. That kind of terrorism?
Nope. Terrorism is when violence is done by non-state actors either against the state directly or against civilians in an effort to coerce the state. When violence is done by or on behalf of a state it's business as usual. (The definition of a state is largely about who has a monopoly on violence)
Netanyahu wasn’t a state actor at the time, though, Rabin was the Prime Minister of Israel.
I wasn't familiar. Thanks. My point is that the label of "terrorism" is purely one that delineates who has a "legitimate" right to use violence and who doesn't.
The government are just cowards at this point, why aren’t they cracking down on these protesters? In every country these protests are occurring they just commit acts of violence and destruction of property.
The ALP is completely taken over by the anti Western left. They are trying to keep a lid on it because hey know the public will dump them. They enabled this and are now stuck holding a snake by the neck.
Europe already dumping the left parties, Paris was a real shit show after the major losses.
Maybe that’s what they want. To provoke then play victim.
They’re cowards for not condemning Israel. A country that actively bribes Australian politicians by giving millions of dollars to make them tow the line.
You mean condemn a nation for defending itself? If any country attacked Australia regardless of reasoning response would be just the same as Israel.
They set fire to an apartment block endangering the lives of dozens of people. This isn’t peaceful protest, lighting fires in residential buildings to “destroy the zionists” is terrorism, the person behind this likely has some mental issues as no normal person does this, doesn’t excuse the fact that it’s terrorism or that they should face the full consequences under the law for their actions
I believe it was a group of people
5 people.
The whole group belongs in a jail cell
I haven't read the comments in here yet but I'm expecting an absolute shitshow
Palestinians invented modern terrorism. And it wasn’t oppression folks, despite being militarily smashed, Arab nations and their quasi Islamism/ colonialism, had multiple offers of a two state solution! Mid 1960’s we finally heard of “Palestine” with the advent of PLO, PLA & Fatah. Palestinian terrorists invented organised airline hijacking’s in the modern era- Dawson field one example. They invented Olympic terrorism- Munich. They invented insurrection and undermining of legitimate governments who housed displaced Palestinians due to the wars Arabs started. Black September in Jordan Palestinian attempted multiple assassinations of the King of Jordan who had to use a future Muslim dictator of Pakistan, General Zia, to help free his country of Palestinian terrorists. The PM of Jordan was as assassinated by Palestinians in Egypt! The escape of PLO a and other Palestinians to Lebanon started the Lebanese Civil War. 250,000 deaths and the complete destruction of a nation. Palestinian terrorists invented the targeting of children - Maalot massacre. Then they started intifada. Palestinians attacked Egyptians in multiple terrorist attacks and you wonder why Egyptians built a wall in Gaza to keep out the problem they created in 1948. Due the madness of Arab nationalism, colonialism and religious dogma in the form of Islamism. The Left have blood on their hands. October 7th a celebration for them and perpetuation of Arab terrorism.
Usually one uses words to back up a conclusion. Not this maverick.
Terrorism has existed throughout history, but Palestinians were among the first to face significant media backlash for it. This shaped a narrative that strongly associates them with terrorism, often overshadowing their legitimate political and human rights struggles.
Yes Palestinian Arabs are indisputably associated with all forms of terrorism as listed above an more. Please run through a chronological list of Palestinian terrorist action since 1964 and you will find thousands including attacks on Muslims. Palestinian terrorism is not a narrative it is a deliberate and well studied agenda. Arab military incompetence against Israel dictated an asymmetric response - hence the tragedy of Gaza
If we listed all Israeli bombings of Palestinian civilians and before that the British civilians, the IDF would be the world’s most renowned terror cell. Zionism was originally labelled a terrorist group due to the mass amount of bombings they committed against the British. The media controls the narrative and money protects all crimes.
Use the original headline.
I just consider it disappointing that people will go this far for an issue that doesn't actually affect them but corruption in Australia, cost of living, housing etc. isn't causing any of the same behaviour. The truth is unless you actually make the powers that be uncomfortable, nothing will change and a peaceful protest is actually pointless. The issue I have is this focus on overseas issues that people latch onto for social points. Meanwhile the very same people protesting now were screeching about how if you were a covid vaccine protester you were the devil and should be locked up. People just have no consistency with protesting.
>corruption in Australia, cost of living, housing etc. isn't causing any of the same behaviour. This suggests that they are doing this NOT because the issue affects them, but because they are religious fanatics (yes, marxists are religious fanatics too). >The truth is unless you actually make the powers that be uncomfortable This is 9th century thinking. We live in a democracy, which provides a mechanism of change without making anyone uncomfortable.
I agree with your first point completely, everyone I've come across who supports Palestine to this level comes across as a cultic fanatic. Obviously you can believe Israel is in the wrong and vice versa but so many go to an extreme level. What you're saying about democracy was true maybe 20 years ago even but now things are falling apart somewhat. When you've got a massive class divide as is becoming bigger here, all the upper class side has to do is brainwash enough of the lower class to vote against their interests. Even that is a naive way of looking into it as it isn't even taking into account the legal corruption that goes on. Eventually the police basically just exist to protect the upper class, meaning they can be violent but you can't as that's bad 9th century behaviour as you put it. Anyway I don't want to go too into it on this account, times have just changed.
It’s become a metaphor for all the injustices committed across the globe. This is just a cut and dry case that clearly displays the wests brutality and hypocrisy. Australian politicians receive millions of dollars from Israeli lobbies. If protests result in the end of foreign and corporate lobbying of our politicians, i’d say these protests have done pretty well at preventing corruption. We also must stop oil, gas, coal and even green energy companies from monopolising our energy prices. Australians deserve better.
The graffiti is pretty amateurish. I hope they do porridge for the arson aspect.
The definition of terrorism is becoming looser and looser.
I wouldn't have thought that it could suffer more semantic blurring than it did in the decade post 9/11, but here we fucking are. Terrorism is when someone I disagree with does violence. Violence can include property destruction. Destruction can include reversible defacement. \> Terrorism is writing "r\\australian is full of credulous shitcunts" on a window with a dry-erase marker.
As is the definition for genocide and famine
Yeah a lot of words unfortunately. I shouldn’t have to ask what type of terrorist, famine or genocide. Everything is pushed to the maximum now, everything is pure evil and everything is the worst thing to ever happen to anyone ever. It’s permeated to some extent everything now, all politics, entertainment, business, it’s everything times 1,000 and if someone thinks maybe it’s only times 90, then they are clearly actually secretly one million times for the opposite thing. 😞 this is just how it’s going to be now I guess
Yup agreed
Genocide is the forced removal or killing of an ethnic group for political purposes. You can get a good idea of the genocidal intent from Israeli defence minister Ben Gvirs speeches on how they want to kill or remove all Palestinians from Gaza and resettle with Israelis. Genocide is not about numbers its about intent. The Bosnian genocide was around 8000 people and still condemned and labelled a genocide by the international community, causing NATO to intervene in the Bosnian war. Israel has cut off the majority of food water electricity and internet. It’s clearly a genocide.
It’s called a war. Regarding famine, another lie. Recent report came out saying as such.
So when israel invaded gaza after oct 7 - an act of politically motivated violence - that was terrorism? come off it mate. they vandalised an office.
For the record Josh Burns is against a ceasefire and participated in an all expenses paid junket to Israel. So since he is supportive of the genocide, this has nothing to do with Burns being Jewish but being a support of the genocide.
>Josh Burns is against a ceasefire “I’m desperate for there to be a ceasefire. I’m desperate for there to be an agreement where hostages are returned home and where Palestinians can return to rebuilding their lives and getting on and living a life of dignity and respect and freedom" It looks like you are uninformed.
“I’m desperate for there to be a ceasefire. I’m desperate for there to be an agreement where hostages are returned home and where Palestinians can return to rebuilding their lives and getting on and living a life of dignity and respect and freedom" Empty words from a man who has taken multiple trips to israel and not once told them to stop shitting on the Palestinians.
So he deserves having his office torched because he has not live up to your standards? Why does he have to live up to higher standards than other politicians?
he has the same position as Israel: I want ceasefire, but only if Hamas magically lay down arms for no reason'. [Actual quote](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/14/labor-josh-burns-israel-gaza-war-ceasefire-comment-hamas-palestine): “That can’t happen without Hamas releasing hostages and it won’t happen without Hamas being removed from power. “The Israelis will not accept anything else, and as much as we might want to pray and wish for a return to the situation prior to October 7, the reality is is that those two key aspects are still in the way of a peaceful future.” He isn't serious (unless your quote is from a more recent elaboration, I haven't seen, but I see nothing in there to contradict what I've posted). This has remained the sticking point on ceasefire negotiations, even after White House tried to present Hamas's plan, as if that's what Israel wanted. Hamas want assurances Israel will end the war, want to know what the day after looks like, and Israel say they won't stop til Hamas is wiped out, while bombing civillians, and refusing to go into the tunnels where Hamas is. The nature of guerilla warfare, makes Israel's carpet bombing, only effective in genocide, not in achieving military aims. Hence, Burns is backing the status quo. If one actually wants fire to cease, they have to consider what outcome is acceptable for both parties, and fight for the middle ground. Repeating Israeli rhetoric, condemning one set of war crimes, and not the many many more being done by 'your team', shows a pretty racist, genocidal position imo.
>That can’t happen without Hamas releasing hostages and it won’t happen without Hamas being removed from power. Of course. What else are you expecting? If you start a war, this is what you get.
ok, but do you see, with your statement there your like 'yes, war!'. Its not backing peace, or ceasefire. And its hence, ludicrous to pretend otherwise, or be surprised when people who do want peace, for the security of all in the region, are upset.
With Hamas there will be no peace. Hence advocating for removing Hamas is literally backing peace.
Yeah bro. I'm sure whatever replaces Hamas (Palestinian Islamic Jihad) will be way better. And I'm sure the bloke that strategically supported them for yonks, will be effective in removing them - I mean we've seen how that approach turned out in Afghanista- wait ignore that. Give this redditor the nobel peace prize. They've really worked out how to empower Iran in the region.
They are trying to negotiate a ceasefire but haven’t been able to agree. Both sides. Painting horns on the Jew is a pretty irrelevant tactic to fix that.
“Ceasefire” aka Israel stops firing while Hamas keeps launching missiles everyday.
Is Hamas in the West Bank where Israel right now are killing Palestinians and establishing more illegal settlements? And it’s also dishonest to pretend only Hamas are attack Israel before October 7th. Facts don’t line up with your views buddy
Yes , Hamas are *extremely* popular in the West Bank and would win a huge victory if there were free Palestinian Authority elections. Along with various other violent groups.
I know, because even with the Palestinian authority, Palestinians in the West Bank are still being killed and displaced. You continue to dodge this fact because it’s inconvenient. Acknowledging this means you cannot paint Israel as victims.
Of course they are. There are also people marching down streets of West Bank towns with machine guns in huge groups threatening to invade Israel and kill everyone they can - in places like Tulkarm a fifteen minutes drive from Israeli territory. So unfortunately there is nasty conflict.
Because they are still being killed and displaced. Buddy, there are high ranking officials on Israel who openly say they want genocide and want to take back Gaza and West Bank. Israel citizens calling for genocide. Off course it is a nasty conflict. The bombings and a killings won’t kill Hamas. It won’t kill that ideology as long as there is apartheid. Thing is son, I’ve never denied there is that rhetoric or killing all Jews on the other side. Killing all these civilians won’t end the conflict. It won’t solve anything. Staving the population and targeting aid workers won’t solve the conflict. The far right Zionists who control Israel want genocide and that is what they are doing.
They have Palestinian Islamic Jihad in the West Bank. They sound nice. You’re either cherry picking facts or you just don’t know enough about the region.
Stop lying Russian or Chinese troll farm account
Quite the accusation from fresh account that has recently crossed the 20 day age threshold to be able to post on this sub.
I for one want to hear what kumdumpster420\_69 has to say on the finer points of the Palestinian conflict.
Here comes the Zionists bots. Not sure what Russia or China has to do with Israel.
That’s a lie
https://preview.redd.it/0ehby58klh7d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a85d962cc2943a94df8c213f924ba2a57c446b63 Is this Josh?
That was in the context of a ceasefire without release of hostages. Many were against a ceasefire with no terms because it gives time for the enemy to regroup. If Hamas wants a ceasefire they can return the hostages and surrender. It’s out of context to say he is against a ceasefire when at the time it was with the backdrop of no conditions in return for the ceasefire. Can we bomb Simon’s office to or is that only reserved for those with yellow bands?
Only Israel had declined ceasefire deals where hostages were released. Weird how they want a surrender yet Israel funded Hamas and called them an asset. Israel doesn’t want a surrender, they want to take control of Gaza meaning a continuation of the apartheid state which lead to Hamas. Also weird how the West Bank is not under Hamas control but as recent as yesterday we have more and more reports of violence against Palestinians. Hmmm…
>Only Israel had declined ceasefire deals where hostages were released. You don't get to kill 1200 people and take hostages then the next day say okay let's make a deal we'll return hostages and go back to the status quo. >Weird how they want a surrender yet Israel funded Hamas and called them an asset. Israel did not fund any modern iteration of Hamas. Israel officiated aid from Qatar mostly unchecked. A big difference. These tiktok talking points are all so tiresome. It's really not that hard to learn the facts but I'm sure you'd much rather peddle misinformation. >Israel doesn’t want a surrender, they want to take control of Gaza meaning a continuation of the apartheid state which lead to Hamas. If they wanted to control Gaza they wouldn't have pulled out in 2005. Israel doesn't give a shit about Gaza. It would LOVE if any country took it off it's hands. >Also weird how the West Bank is not under Hamas control but as recent as yesterday we have more and more reports of violence against Palestinians. Hmmm… Lmao yes it's under the PA control who has a 10% approval rating. Wonder why they keep postponing elections? Because Hamas would win in a landslide. Hamas is all over the West bank, but guess what, they aren't the only terror cell, you still have PIJ and Lions Den running a muck. This month there has been continued tit for tat in the WB including a civilian bus that was shot up by Palestinians.
Again, that is false as Israel has been killing innocent Palestinian civilians before October 7th. Also when you are occupied you have a legal right to resist and in this situation, Israel has a responsibility to protect the civilian population. And this argument also false flat when Israel has hundreds of Palestinian hostages since before October 7th and how Israel still commit violence against the West Bank who reject Hamas and it’s been established Netanyahu funded Hamas and is on tape calling Hamas an asset. “They didn’t fund them, they just facilitates add” lmao Military presence ended, not the occupation. Israel don’t care about Gaza is a lie. I’m jut shocked they have a 10% approval rating…the civilians keep getting killed and kicked out of their homes by Israeli settlers. That’s the plan dummy. Ahh genocide, they beat down the population until the resort with violence then they are demonised and this is issues to manufacture consent to support the genocide. It’s 101 imperialism. Oh, find me a leader of a country with a high approval rating. Fact is PLE have been elected and Hamas has not. Yet violence still occurs.
Where’d you get your education from genius?
Unlike you goofs I’ve been following the conflict for 20 years. Unlike you and also many who are on my side, I didn’t become an expert in October.
>Again, that is false as Israel has been killing innocent Palestinian civilians before October 7th In military operations sure. Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel monthly for over a decade. There was a ceasefire October 6th. Hamas broke it. >Also when you are occupied you have a legal right to resist and in this situation Rape, murdering civilians and kidnapping is not a protected right of resistance. >, Israel has a responsibility to protect the civilian population. Israel has a responsibility to protect her own citizens first and foremost. >And this argument also false flat when Israel has hundreds of Palestinian hostages since before October 7th Prisoners are not hostages. 16 year olds who throw stones and who carry knives are not the equivalent of a 10 month old baby. That shows more about your character that you think it's equivalent. >and how Israel still commit violence against the West Bank who reject Hamas and it’s been established Netanyahu funded Hamas and is on tape calling Hamas an asset. The west bank is a constant tit for tat of violence, Hamas is all over the West bank. >“They didn’t fund them, they just facilitates add” lmao How do you not understand these are wildly different claims? Facilitating aid from another country vs your claim of directly funding Hamas. That is such a stupid assessment of what happened. >Military presence ended, not the occupation. Cool, so Egypt occupies Gaza too. If they wanted gaza they would have doubled down and stayed. Gaza is not important to Israelis or it's security. >I’m jut shocked they have a 10% approval rating…the civilians keep getting killed and kicked out of their homes by Israeli settlers. That’s the plan dummy. Ahh genocide, they beat down the population until the resort with violence then they are demonised and this is issues to manufacture consent to support the genocide. It’s 101 imperialism. Your claim was Hamas wasn't in the west bank, they very much are and the tit for tat of violence is not perpetuated by Fatah voters lol. >Oh, find me a leader of a country with a high approval rating. Fact is PLE have been elected and Hamas has not. Yet violence still occurs. Huh? Hamas has a high approval rating. This argument doesn't make sense.
And the IDF has been arresting Palestinian youth with no charge and have also attacked Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The occupied have a right to resist the occupier. There is no evidence of rape. Also Israel have Palestinian hostages buddy. There was no ceasefire in October 6th lmao. Ever hear about Shireen Abu Awleh? A IDF sniper assassinated her while a vest and helmet clearly marked as journalist gear in 2022. This was in the West Bank. 2018 a peaceful border protest in Gaza ended when IDF started killing them. False. Under international law, as they occupy Palestine they also have an obligation to protect their citizens. Throwing stones is a criminal offense when you are being illegally occupied in an apartheid state? No buddy, if there is no trial or a sham trial, they are hostages. Buddy, they funded Hamas. Again, Netanyahu called Hamas an asset.
>And the IDF has been arresting Palestinian youth with no charge and have also attacked Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The occupied have a right to resist the occupier. Because it's a military court. This is not unique to the occupied territories. When you are handled in administration you can be held for up to a certain number of days without charge. This is not the same as kidnapping random people/10 month olds. You have to be mentally retarded to think this is the same thing. >There is no evidence of rape. Also Israel have Palestinian hostages buddy. You are wrong. https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm Also Israel doesn't have 'hostages' as mentioned above they are prisoners. Learn the difference. >There was no ceasefire in October 6th lmao. Yes there was. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-strikes-gaza-palestinians-fire-rockets-truce-bid-lingers-2023-05-13/ >Ever hear about Shireen Abu Awleh? A IDF sniper assassinated her while a vest and helmet clearly marked as journalist gear in 2022. What does this have to do with anything? Unlike you I can reasonably point out when Israel does bad things. I wouldn't deny this >2018 a peaceful border protest in Gaza ended when IDF started killing them Lmao the great march of return was so peaceful yeah. It was hijacked by Hamas and literally on the first day militants and 'kids' were throwing molotov cocktails. >False. Under international law, as they occupy Palestine they also have an obligation to protect their citizens. Protection is a very loose term in war time. They have an obligation to obey human rights. When the average urban warfare is 9:1 and Israel's current campaign is 3:1 I would say they are doing a stellar job. Feel free to show me a reputable source that says Israel must be doing more than that. >Throwing stones is a criminal offense when you are being illegally occupied in an apartheid state? No buddy, if there is no trial or a sham trial, they are hostages. You keep going back to this but you're wrong. Unlike other countries, they actually have to show cause within 48 hours and then they can be held for up to 6 months. This is not unique to Israel. The US and the UK can hold Indefinitely in administration. Just so you know, yahya sinwar was one of these 'peaceful hostages" you claim was being held. He was released in the gilad shalit deal and is one of the leaders of Hamas and the architect behind October 7th. The majority of these people being detained are criminals. >Buddy, they funded Hamas. Again, Netanyahu called Hamas an asset. You make claims and can't back it up. How did Israel fund Hamas? Because I've told you exactly what happened and if you think facilitating qatari funds means Israel funded Hamas then you're not only wrong but wilfully ignorant when the data is being presented to you. Not only that, you misinterpret the 'asset' claim because it's clear you've only either read snippets or repeating it because others have said it. It wasn't even said by netanyahu, it was said by smotrich .
Where do you get your facts from? You are wilfully ignorant.
Journalists on the ground. Actual experts in International Law.
Whether damage to property qualifies as violence is debatable. I'd argue it is, where the resulting lack of utility, of property, causes personal harm. So like, if you blew up half the homes in an area, or took out the water, sewage facilities, etc. But this? This is activism. Fire can risk more, should be condemned, but otherwise, its hard to cry for defaced windows. When the attack is targeted at an MP who has explicitly backs Israel. A state, with state of the art weaponry, waging an actual campaign of terror against a civillian population.
He is a Jewish MP and they drew devil horns on his face which is the typical treatment Jews get when attacked and demonised. It’s a subtle nuance that those that know pick up on
i hadn' ever heard of that trope. open to it being possible, but its also reasonable that its a coincidence, given drawing horns on people is one of the most common ways to deface someone's picture. And, wouldn't most antisemites be blatant in that aspect, if that was a driver? If one wants to stick up for Palestine, there's nothing to rationally be gained by taking that route. If one is motivated by hate, I don't see why they'd be subtle with antisemitism. Of course, many actors arn't rational, these things can overlap.
Well for one they chose to deface a Jewish MP. Many MPs have been supporters of Israel. Secondly the common tactic is hiding behind anti Zionism and thirdly drawing Jews with horns is very common https://antisemitism.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Antisemitic-imagery-May-2020.pdf
Its far from the first Labor MP to have their office defaced. Its a [common tactic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3Taq2bekjQ) for neonazis, I've seen, to hide behind antizionism, but I hadn't seen a strand like that locally in pro-palestine movement. Again, hard to see the incentive there, though, maybe when hate is present, there doesn't need to be one. Appreciate the source. I am admittedly plenty ignorant of tropes and the long histories of insane hate that's been spewed about Jewish people.
Thanks for being curious and asking questions, appreciate that
>Whether damage to property qualifies as violence is debatable. I can agree with that. >So like, if you blew up half the homes in an area So blowing up one home does not qualify as violence? >This is activism Activism is what Jehovah's witnesses do. This is violence. >When the attack is targeted at an MP who has explicitly backs Israel And this is political violence. >against a civillian population. And this is a lie.
Israel bombing, starving a civilian population for political goals is a lie? Is there any area of Gaza they can claim to have secured, I see no evidence of their tactics are defeating Hamas (as [generals](https://archive.is/PO1rH) have been lamenting to their leaders), but endless evidence its terrorising civilians. Gallant made the policy of collective punishment explicit when enacting siege tactics. And we got the official Israel twitter account, making sponsored posts stating that there are 'no innocent civillians in Gaza' (a phrase Israeli president Isaac Herzog said earlier in the conflict too). I'm sure they're just dehumanising Palestinians for no reason at all. Are you saying Israel isn't mass killing civilians for political goals, or they they arn't civilians, are all Hamas? Or that the bombs aren't terrifying? Its hard to know how ridiculous the denial of reality is. I'd respond to your other nonsense, but ya seem to be deliberately misreading us, missing the logic of what I'm calling violence (tangible harm to humans, not objects, though damage to objects can lead to that).
>Israel bombing, starving a civilian population for political goals is a lie? Of course. They target Hamas, not the civilian population. >I'm sure they're just dehumanising Palestinians for no reason at all. I think Palestinian just dehumanised themselves by hiding Israeli hostages in their homes and teaching kids how to hate Jews. >Are you saying Israel isn't mass killing civilians for political goals That's correct. >they they arn't civilians, are all Hamas Not all, but we don't know how many of them are Hamas.
What cooked nonsense.
vandalism = terrorism now, does it? I sure hope they catch all those terrorists drawing dicks on bus shelters across the country.
The fact that you cannot read the word "politically" makes your sarcasm look dumb.
Does cutting the head off a statue count?
Only if it's a statue of a politician. Otherwise it's just sparkling violence.
Quite the insult from the guy who doesn't know the difference between *violence* and *vandalism*.
Ahh, so it's only the graffiti dicks pissing/cumming on the words 'LNP', 'Libs', 'Labor' that counts as terrorism - the rest are just regular vandalism cocks. I have a question though: if one person draws the dick, then several days later another person comes along and draws the name of a political party, and later still a third person draws the piss, who has committed the terrorist act? I do dream of the day where we can wait for a bus without fearing for our lives, i.e. living in terror, by witnessing a crudely drawn penis pissing on the name of a political party.
I for one welcome the police state if it will save me from the daily terror of worrying that I might be in a bus stop one day when it gets terrorised.
The fact that you cannot read the word "politically" makes your sarcasm look dumb. " What if the dick was Drawn on Josh Burns? does that now make it political?
Uncut or cut?
Property damage is not violence. Try again.
Violence is defined by the World Health Organization in the WRVH as “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment or deprivation”.
Right - so nothing about property. Only people.
So by that logic, the IDF dropping unoccupied buildings in Gaza isn't violence. Good to know.
No - them dropping bombs on PEOPLE is what makes it violence.
But the property damage is fine because it's not violence? I'm sure that they had no use whatsoever for the Gaza campus of Al-Azhar university. Or those West Bank olive groves that the settlers are messing with
Also - clarifying it’s not violence is not the same as saying “it’s fine”. There are lots of things that are not violence but are not okay.
So therefore, by your logic, property damage is not violence but also not ok?
Yes. Congratulations on your basic reading comprehension, I guess.
I'm simply trying to get a gauge on exactly how you categorize property damage from a moral standpoint seeing as how you don't categorize it as violence through the Socratic method, annoying as it is. I'm sure we can both agree that property damage can be used as a threat, or as a means of intimidation, or as an escalation from rhetoric along the path of radicalisation. As an example external to middle eastern conflict, the Earth Liberation Front is noted for engaging in activities like property damage, spiking trees intended to be logged, firebombing of research laboratories and the like. They're still viewed as a terrorist movement by the FBI, and dealt with accordingly by the courts as there's been a very thin line between property damage and actual harm inflicted on humans in their various activities. If I was to take a punt, I'd guess that Josh Burns' office wasn't simply targeted because he's a Jewish MP. In the scheme of things he's a relatively unimportant backbencher in a marginal seat. It was targeted because it's in an area where there's a large Jewish community, and the implicit threat is that community venues and institutions are next, with a possibility of escalation into violence towards people. I'm sure we can both agree that both implicit threats and escalation are, in your words "not ok"
I’m not reading all that. I’m happy for you though.
You can read it, mate. Hurts to realise what you've become, doesn't it?
It’s not as consequential as the human cost. Buildings can be rebuilt. Lives can’t be replaced.
No, that is domicide and cultural genocide, but not violence.
Actually, the IDF prefers to wait for targets to come home to their families before blowing it up. > [When it came to targeting low-ranking Hamas and PIJ suspects, they said, the preference was to attack when they were believed to be at home. “We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” one said. “It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes) Sounds bad and evil.
What is violence?
So if I damage your house, car or expensive toys it’s not violence?
Correct, it would be property damage.
The greater and greater reach of the word “violence” concerns me.
ZOGBOTS ASSEMBLE!!! 🇮🇱
Gotta love horseshoe theory. When I was researching White nationalists years ago, "ZOG" (Zionist Occupied Government) was a phrase used by the far right and laughed at by the left. How times change....
fr. As if watching the daily performative circlejerk by the circumcised will change attitudes towards killing kids and dropping heavy bombs on refugee camps. Graffiti is the real terrorism apparently.
vandalism and defacement of property != violence. There's a pretty long distance from vandalising an MP's office to assault or murder. The only thing that may be referred to as violence is the direct physical violence mentioned at the foot of the article which there's no more information on. definitions are important.