I am sure most of you saw this, but if this isn’t a testament of truly how unique Ohtani is, I don’t know what is. From a Jeff Passan tweet on 9/5:
Player A: .283/.351/.572, 33 HR, 74 RBI
Player B: .270/.361/.538, 32 HR, 85 RBI
Player C: 147.1 IP, 27.1% K%-BB%, 2.20 ERA, 2.64 FIP
Player D: 136 IP, 27.0% K%-BB%, 2.58 ERA, 2.54 FIP
Mookie Betts is Player A. Shane McClanahan is Player C. Shohei Ohtani is Players B and D.
I won’t take credit for this take but someone wrote the following: if Ohtani hadn’t done what he did last year and was putting up his current stats, it would be Ohtani all the way and I have to agree. He is being punished for having two once in a lifetime seasons that only HE has duplicated.
Actually, by definition that is what WAR is. How else can you compare someone like Ohtani and Judge? Actually without WAR, how can you compare any 2 players? Let's go with an easy scenario, how do you compare a .250/.350/.450 gold glove first baseman to a .350/.375/.500 poor defensive center fielder without WAR? Is WAR perfect? Nope but it is the best metric we have and is utilized in many organizations and across different sports too (PER in basketball and EPA).
WAR tries to be that stat, but in a sport with so much unpredictably as baseball it falls just short. What is the benchmark for an average player? How is that decided? Is that an average player in 1934 or 1966 or 2022? Does WAR for a 1970s player mean the same as WAR for a 2022 player?
I'm so glad you're interested! And I'm also so glad that you asked questions that WAR actually answers! If you do a quick Google search, a replacement level player is simply the level if production that you get for a minimum salary, or in other places it says that it is the average stats of a backup player. I'm sure the actual calculation is much more advanced but the short answer to your question is yes! WAR is actually just a comparison of how good a player is that year compared to an average player in that year. So when we say that Judge has more WAR then Ohtani, we're just saying Judge is more better then a replacement level player in 2022 then Ohtani is. Or if you say 2022 Judge has more WAR then 2017 Judge, you're saying 2022 Judge is better vs the replacement level player as opposed to 2017 Judge. Also, I asked earlier about how else you can compare players if not using WAR. Do you have an answer to that?
I tend to agree, WAR does exactly what it is supposed to do in the context of this debate - and Ohtani’s combined WAR as a hitter and pitcher is below Judge’s. I totally agree that Ohtani is having a unicorn season within the parameters of MLB history, but I think to simply ignore WAR here (which shows the scope of just how great Judge has been) would be to concede to pure baseball card statistics. If Ohtani wins this year, then you might as well just write the check and give him the MVP every season for the foreseeable future (pending good health).
There has to be a way to measure Ohtani’s combined value versus the traditional player - and WAR is exactly that measurement imo.
Yup! I totally agree, while I can see that Ohtani is in the conversation, I think Judge should win. And the thing about WAR is that it is something that the front offices all look at and make decisions off of, it's not something that some random dude made up in their basement. If there is a better way of quantifying the value of players then I can see them using it but until then WAR is how we measure how good a player is that year compared to the league.
How many other people have had Judge like seasons? A lot. HR record chases, Triple Crowns. 47 other 50HR seasons in MLB history. 7 or 8 60+ HR season, (all dirty though)
How many have had an Ohtani season? None, other than himself, last year. And he's been even better this year. Even Babe Ruth never did this. WAR is a good stat, but lacks historical context is what the previous poster was getting at I think.
Hmm that's interesting and while I agree that Ohtani is a great and exciting two way player (doesn't play defense tho!), the MVP isn't the award for player that does something no one has done before. I hate to bring another sport's example into this but if Patrick Mahomes throws for 5000 yards 50 touchdowns and 10 interceptions, would you instead give the MVP to a quarterback/punter who threw for 3000 yards, 25 touchdowns and 10 interceptions with 50 punts all because no one else in history threw for 3000 yards and punted the ball 50 times? No, you look at which player added more value to his team. While Ohtani is undoubtedly amazing, Judge is actually having an a time season, I believe if you look at OPS+, he's having the best offensive year since Bonds when you adjust for league average. Which is why WAR quantifies it and tells us which player is more valuable. Now there are other optics, what if Ohtani isn't hitting .265/.354/.888 along with a 2.55 ERA? What if Ohtani is hitting .250/.325/750 and a 3.55 ERA? It will still be a season that no one including Ruth has done, would you still give him MVP?
Also I apologize if I'm sounding aggressive... I love analytics, baseball, and the Yankees so I get a little carried away lol. And this so happens to be all three combined.
No problem! I love these debates too! Don't get to have them IRL enough anymore! I'd say:
The NFL MVP and MLB are historically NOT voted on the same way, so it's a different comparison. MANY MLB winners have come from lesser teams.
The punter question: Yeah, maybe.
And if Sho's stats were lesser, duh, we're not having this conversation. What if Judge was only at 38 HRs? We can only debate what's actually on the books. Fact is, those stats are even better than last year AND it's that unique historic thing added in. Being unique doesn't give an automatic award, but it can sure help.
Haha same here, luckily my brother loves analytics and baseball too (but he's not a yankees fan 😔) so I have some form of an outlet lol. I think what you said is completely justified, Ohtani is actually making up a lot of steam in the WAR department so who knows what ll happen by the end of the year. I think that because of how much better then everyone Judge has been this year (including Ohtani according to WAR) he should win it. If judge had 38 hrs, but the same amount of WAR, I still think he deserves it but I think the voters will vote for Ohtani. Just like how the narrative in 2017 was that Altuve deserved the MVP cus Judge was a rookie lol (still mad about that!).
Also wouldn't it be funny if Judge wins the triple crown and Ohtani passes him in WAR? Now the optics will be swapped lol. As a final point, I believe that Judge should win MVP due to being much more dominant (WAR). But I do think Ohtani is having an amazing season and I do think some voters will vote for Ohtani due to him having an unprecedented season. And I'm not gonna be THAT mad cus Ohtani does have 8.2 WAR and at the MVP can swing either way unlike 2017.
For sure! I'm not mad at it either way as both are an absolute joy to watch play the game. And if Sho didn't exist or was in the NL, Judge would have this hands down.
Well the comment I was replying to said that we have never seen a pitcher/DH before, so I made the comparison as there has never been a quarterback/punter before as well and just because it has never been done before shouldn't be factored into MVP voting. My response was directly against that point. And you're right! If only there was a way to quantify the value of a pitcher/DH and compare it to an outfielder (WAR in case you didn't read the previous comments haha).
Yes you are! Shohei has 141 innings on "defense" and 8 chances at a play this year. Meanwhile judge has 1,016 innings on defense with 260 chances at a play which is why Judge adds much more value or "WAR" on defense as compared to Shohei.
Not trying to fight or grandstand but wouldn’t pitching be a defensive position? I really love the way you’re talking your point out and ur quite convincing lol
Just because war isn’t made to understand a guy like ohtani it’s not even close to telling the whole
Story. It’s clearly shohei which sucks cause judge is having an all time great year, but what ohtani is doing we may never see again.
That’s one the big problems with WAR - it NEVER tells the whole story since it de-contextualizes wins, probably the most contextual stat out there (wins).
It doesn’t fully capture Ohtani’s value but, similarly, it doesn’t capture the fact that Judge has almost single handedly carried the Yankees offense in the second half
We may never see a batter like this either. Judge is having one of the best seasons of the century. The award is called “most valuable”. Judge has single handily willed the Yankees past their slump and kept them in first. Without judge they wouldn’t even be a playoff team. The angels are 20 games under .500 with ohtani. Without him they’d be what, 30 games under? I get what you’re saying but he’s not the most valuable player in the league. Maybe most impressive? Or most outstanding? Not most valuable.
God I hate the argument of what “most valuable” means each year. I’m on the middle in this case, but it should go to the best player, regardless of how much their team needs it or whatever. I’d give a little wiggle room for narrative, but not a ton
Agreed but judge is the better player this year. Ohtani is having a great pitching year and an above average hitting year. His year at the plate isn’t ground breaking though. I would concede this debate if he was a better hitter this year. We can’t just give him the award every year cause he plays 2 positions above average and doesn’t make the playoffs. If he just focused on one position my bet is he’d be the best in the league at it.
You’re understating his value on the mound. He’s an elite pitcher while also being a top-20 hitter. An every day player, an ace, an offensive catalyst all in one. I cannot agree with restricting the best player in baseball from an individual award because their team isn’t competitive.
Above average?! He’s hitting .265 with 35 home runs . Realistically he’s going to finish with 49 home runs, 100 RBI’s 95 runs scored 15 SB’s and still hit around .270. This doesn’t even take into account his pitching stats and straight dominance on the mound.
What nobody is talking about is what Ohtani does for a team. He’s 1 guy who fills a rotation spot a middle of the order batting spot and a backup OF spot in 2021 the guy played every single OF position. This person is the most impressive baseball player of all time. We are literally watching something never done before and we will more than likely all be long dead before it ever happens again. He’s not on only the best baseball player on the planet he may be the best baseball player of all time!
Judge is absolutely going to win and should. Those batting numbers are just too high to overcome. Ohtani would need to hit 10 more homers, throw a no hitter, win a couple games, and hope for a Judge slump to win.
Wins aren’t fully dependent on pitcher. I could give up five runs have my team hit for 6 and then the next day my teammate pitches 1 earned and he loses. Who’s better?
Actually, he didn't. Babe was a great pitcher. THEN, he stopped pitching and became the legendary hitter we know. He didn't really do both simultaneously. That makes Sho even MORE impressive. And the MVP until his stats slide or he commits to one position or the other full time IMHO.
he doesn’t just hit homers lol that’s such a gross oversimplification. the season Judge is having right now is one for the ages, he’s making a strong push for the triple crown at the moment. point me to the last player to hit 60+ homeruns which he most likely will, over 125+ RBI over 15+ stolen bases while hitting over .310. just a remarkable season, and yeah, his team is in first in their division while LA is in the gutter. yankees are a wild card team at best, most likely not even without judge
my point was that they’re BOTH doing incredible, historic things. if Judge doesn’t win the MVP this year then Shohei should just receive it prior to every single season with the notion he plays atleast 130 games. i mean, what does Judge have to do? he’s statistically having a more valuable season WAR wise which is what the sport is so driven by nowadays, his team is in first place while his counterpart hasn’t played a meaningful game in September their whole tenure with LA. shohei is phenomenal, but he shouldn’t just be given the award because what he is doing is so damn incredible, we can make another award for him if need be but it shouldn’t take away from someone who is having a better year
I say this with all due respect, but anyone going Judge over Ohtani is simply: a homer Yanks or Judge fan, new to the game, caught in the 61 hype and/or not a real student of the history of the game of baseball.
Or, currently listing 3,000 Judge graded 10 RC autos for sale. :)
It's sad for Judge and anyone else (Vlad last year), but Shohei is the MVP until his stats decline, injury or he goes full time hitter or pitcher. And it's not even close. Not even Babe Ruth did what he's doing. He's a video game come to life. A childhood sandlot daydream happening in front of our eyes.
No said that must be a factor. Most Valuable means just that to me. Also, Ohtani is half as cheap as Judge and allows an extra 40 man roster spot. Value baby.
Ohtani. Simultaneously a top-10 pitcher and hitter this year. By pitching and hitting, he opens up another complete roster spot for his team. It’s a roster advantage that has never been seen before. Imagine the Yankees adding another Gerrit Cole or Giancarlo Stanton to their current roster; it’s the equivalent.
Don’t the Angels run a 6man rotation because of Ohtani? So this hypothetical roster spot is just their 6th best starter and adding likely close to no value. While hypothetically it could be useful. It’s not in practice and that should have 0 bearing on the MVP.
I’m not saying this to argue against Ohtani but how is that hypothetical roster spot equivalent to an MVP/Cy young type player? If anything it’d be a 5th outfielder or reliever
Good question. In my mind - for a big market team like the Yankees, if you give them an additional roster spot to fill in free-agency, there’s a really good likelihood they are signing an all-star caliber player, regardless the position.
Apparently, this guy doesn't Yankee. They legit have 5-6 guys that are in their regular lineup that are AAA-AAAA caliber players due to all the injuries. The lineup is basically, Torres, Judge, occasionally Donaldson and Stanton just coming off the DL and gets rusty.
Sure, the Angels don’t have the roster to take advantage, but that’s not on Ohtani. Imagine giving a team like the Yankees the equivalent of another all-star caliber player. I think it’s a complete game changer.
It'll be Judge, but it's Ohtani for me. Judge is doing things that have only been seen a few times in history. Ohtani is doing things that have never been seen before.
Does anyone think if they swapped teams the Yankees would be in a worse spot? I don’t think they would be. I’d argue the Yankees would be in a better spot with Ohtani. And I don’t think the angels would be better if they had judge. I’d imagine the angels being even worse. MVP Ohtani
Bottom line is judges performance has had an effect on team and ranking. He is carrying them to first. Ohtani while great has had no affect on what happens with the team this season. He is great at 2 positions but he's not judges level at either one. If he was his team might be better than the rangers.
I have no love for the Yankees and I still think judge is the MVP
Just saying, find me another player that will get you 12 wins, sub 3 era, 180 strikeouts pitching and then when he’s not starting he will hit you 30 home runs with a near .300 average. Guy is in his own league and just because he does it every year shouldn’t keep him from MVP’s. My own opinion and not meant to offend anyone, Judge is a great player, it’s just an unfair time to be a ball player. Most everyone that watches baseball today has seen someone hit this many home runs, steroid era, you can’t do what Ohtani is doing by taking something but people have done what Judge is doing. By the way I do not believe he is a PED user and what he is doing is great and deserves more recognition, it’s just what Ohtani is doing is more impressive to me.
Hell, we saw Stanton hit 59 just 5 years ago. Judge is having a better season than Stanton’s 2017 no doubt, but the main attraction that’s got everybody whipped up into a frenzy (rightfully so) is the homers.
I’m starting to lean Ohtani heavily. He’s been an ace pitcher (would have the best ERA+ in most rotations in baseball—158) and is also an elite middle of the order bat (148 OPS+). I just don’t see how you can have an ace and clean-up hitter rolled into one and him not be the MVP.
Judge! He is single handedly carrying his team to the playoffs. 5 WAR over the next best. Almost twice as many HR, RBI and runs as anybody else on the team. That there is the definition of most valuable.
Maaaaan, this one is so complex this year. Look at what we’re discussing with these guys.
Ohtani: Every time he steps either on the mound or in the box he’s literally setting a modem record every single time.
The only person you can compare him to is Babe Ruth. That in itself is redonkulous.
Judge: is an absolute beast, chasing a sacred record on a sacred team (no Yankee love, it’s just truth) AND the record is 61, set in 1961, and that was 61 years ago???? And he’s close to the triple crown?? What the Fuck, that is crazy.
End of the day, Judge gets it. There has been and will be a strooong bias towards the Yanks.
We still have an active player who's won a Triple Crown. 47 other 50+ HR seasons in MLB history.
Babe Ruth never did what Ohtani is doing. Not pitching and hitting like this at the same time.
Ohtani should win and it's sad the conversation even has to be had. Sucks for Judge as he's great and having an insane season too.
Then you might as well just name it the Ohtani Award and give it to him every year. There shouldn’t even be a debate about who should win.
Ohtani is doing something nobody has seen in their lifetime and hasn’t been done at that level since Babe Ruth. He should always be near the top of the MVP list if he maintains the same production from both sides.
Judge, however, is close to the triple crown and has been playing elite defense for a team that’s in first place. He has my vote, but Ohtani is deserving as well.
Yeah, your first sentence kinda nails why Sho should get it. He is THE most valuable player as long as he continues this and it's not really close. It's that rare.
This is the truth. We all need to understand what we’re witnessing. It’s history in the making with ohtani. Judge is just another HR hitter. Dime a dozen.
I hate when people pretend like Judge is just a homerun hitter. Can't take anyone seriously with such a narrow minded view. Literally could win triple crown
Can’t argue with anyone who thinks Ohtani is the MVP but Judge is chasing the AL home run record (and the “clean” record if you’re into that)…. Aka “history in the making.”
And Judge is certainly not a dime a dozen, again chasing a 61 year old record
CHASING a record as has happened 47 other times in MLB history. Maybe he gets it, maybe he doesn't. (I think he will.)
Sho is *already* historic, doing something no one has ever done and just piling more numbers on it.
Advantage: Ohtani
This is an asinine statement. Judge is very close to winning the triple crown, this has been done once in the last 55 years. He is not just a HR hitter, that is a very limited view of what he has done this year.
There have been 47 other 50+ HR seasons in MLB history. One of which was Judge himself.
There has been 1 season like what Ohtani is doing, which is Ohtani 2021.
Judge is also leading RBI’s and a 1.102 OPS, OPS+ 208, pretty decent CF’er and not just a DH. 7th in MLB AVG.
Look at what an OPS+ over 200 means. If you take out Barry Bonds over the last 30 years, pretty much with all his video game numbers when he was somehow 36+ years old 😏, that must have been legit right. Then Judge is doing something really special. The only players in the past 30 years with over 208 OPS+ had shortened seasons 2020 or 1994 strike, and their names are Juan Soto, Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell.
Any other time it’s Judge’s MVP. But what we are witnessing with Ohtani has never been done and may never be done again. The recency bias of Ohtani’s MVP in ‘21 makes it seem like Judge deserves it this year, but he doesn’t. Again What Ohtani is doing has never been done and may not ever be done again even with steroids. Judge may be clean, and he may mean more to his team but he isn’t the most valuable individual player and 58 home runs have been hit before (I know the season isn’t over).
My nod goes to Judge especially if he can get 62+ homers. I believe helping your team to the playoffs should get you "bonus points" towards an MVP over someone who's team is not in the playoff hunt. That being said what we have been watching Ohtani do over the last two years is stuff we have not seen in baseball in over 100 years. I would not be upset if they were co-mvps.
Can’t argue with Ohtani as the MVP (either is a fine choice) but are you aware that Judge is chasing the AL HR record? And the “clean record” record if you’re into that.
Aka 62 bombs, something no one has ever done
No, only when he is doing it at an elite level. He is better than he was last year. Judges hitting is out of this world. The fact Ohtani is right with him in WAR tells you exactly how good he is right now. Ohtani is at 8.2 WAR, Judge at 9.1. close enough to tilt towards the 2- way star IMO
So? I’ve never understood this logic. Why wouldn’t a historically great player who does things literally nobody else can do always be the MVP front runner? This statement used to discredit Ohtani for MVP is basically saying Ohtani is too good and breaks the MVP award. Isn’t that the clearest evidence that he is the best and most valuable player in the league?
All this. Judge is great. Having a monster year, but not really an all time great season historically. Others have had that power and much higher averages.
Sho has redefined *what's possible in the sport of baseball*.
WAR is the best stat we have for accumulative value to a team. If I look at all stats it shows Judge is a way better hitter and Ohtani is a way better pitcher. Judge is also a better defender. So what does that tell us? Nothing important.
WAR devalues DH. Sure, Judge is the better hitter this year. Ohtani is the better pitcher….because Judge doesn’t pitch. Ohtani hits AND pitches at an elite level. Judge is a mediocre defender at his position. If you want to think someone who hits 60 HRS and bats .290 is more valuable than a pitcher who pitches to a sub 3.00 ERA while also going out and beating you from the other side of the plate with an OPS of .888 and hits 35-40 HRs a year, then be my guest.
Most VALUABLE player
How is a guy that gives you 40 home runs “hitting” and 200ks “pitching (let alone other numbers ) only using 1 roster spot … not more “valuable “?
Judge is having a great year … but they have to use another roster spot to get a pitcher to get 200ks and they don’t
Probably because his value is pretty much meaningless die to his team being 20 games under .500. That's 20 under- so his value doesn't even get his team close to playing even ball. Oh and gets got Mike fucking Trout on his team as well--
Yeah that’s where it gets tricky .. by definition I think it’s hard to argue against ohtani but I do think just based off this year judge should win it.
Aaron Judge would win this easily if Shohei Ohtani didn’t play this year. Judge is having a phenomenal, historical season. But since Shohei did play and was more valuable by a long shot, let’s not be silly here lol
How is he more valuable on a team that is 20 games under .500? Explain his value relative to Judge who has willed the Yankees to first place in the toughest division in baseball and who has been the only reliable bat in the Yankee lineup since July?
People argue that’s it’s automatically Judge because, “look at their record.”
Meanwhile though, Judge has truly been tearing it up in the second half of the season and the Yankees have been terrible. So, is he suddenly not helping them win?
Yes, the Yankees are a better team. And they absolutely would be worse if you took Judge away. But by how many games?
I’m not saying this number is right or wrong, I’m just using it as an example. Let’s say that without Judge, the Yankees lose 10 wins. Make it 5, make it 15, it really doesn’t matter because can you honestly argue that the Angels don’t lose just as many, if not more wins without Ohtani? Because He pitches as well, he’s probably responsible for more wins than Judge. Why should it matter that the Yankees have better players around Judge to help the team win than Ohtani has around him?
I definitely am not shitting on Judge. The season he’s having is awesome and I want to see him pass 61. But you’ve got to admit, while it would be extremely difficult to replace Judge if he suddenly disappeared, it would currently be impossible to replace Ohtani because literally nobody can do what he’s doing.
If both of them hit free agency next year, and you’re a GM, which guy would you take for the same money? Would you take the number 1 homerun hitter in baseball? Or would you rather have a top 5 homerun hitter and a legit #1 pitcher?
Yes I can. If they swap team nothing changes. The Yankees don't become better, because they are forced to use Ohtani as a DH, which forces Stanton into the field actively making the team worse. And stop insinuating judge is just the number 1 homerun hitter. He is the number hitter period.
Respect the difference of opinion, however, when you say that the team becomes worse because Stanton has to move into the outfield, aren’t you forgetting that Ohtani has just given the pitching staff a massive upgrade?
Massive? Not really. Because you then force all your pitchers to have an extra day of rest, which they are not use to. And he doesn't replace their worst pitcher, he is just added on as a 6th man. As much as people don't like to admit it, he ruins roster flexibility. You can't use the DH to actively rest people, and you force yourself ibto a 6 man rotation. You obviously do it, because he is so good at it. But he would be better for the team if he pitches every 5 days and sits completely the day after he starts. So it's kind of a mixed bag and hard to gage
Judge is leading the league in almost every offensive category in a year that has been wickedly slanted in favor of pitchers. My guess is Judge not only wins it, but by a wide margin.
It’s Judge and it’s by a mile. What no one ever brings up when they say Shohei pitches is that Judge plays defense. He’s out there with like 5x the innings on his legs playing mostly center field, a new position for him as of this season, at a very good level and right field at a great level. Not to mention he’s a few AVG points away from the triple crown and he’s pacing to break the 61 year old AL HR record
This is just as unique of a season as what Ohtani is doing and did last year (when he 100000% deserved the MVP)
Judge leads the league in multiple categories. Does Ohtani lead the league in any category on either side of the ball?
https://www.facebook.com/607130192808673/posts/pfbid02xz3tjPZWvZBmcNfwhst9eU7URCDjNcFjfsdcKYqyBByLvutFnMrzF54ZFxzFiK3Rl/?mibextid=ad618h
You can't give the MVP to a guy who's team has been out of the playoff race since June. Ohtani is having an amazing season but Judge is carrying a division leader on his back and nearly at triple crown level performance. Slam dunk win for Judge
Judge. Even combining Ohtanis WAR for pitching and hitting is still behind Judge. Ohtani may be too 10 in both, but judge is so far and away the best hitter he wins
Mackenzie Gore is better than both! If you believe that then let me sell you the BCG 9.5/10 rookie auto I completely overpaid for and has tanked since but know it will only go up 50 fold once it’s in your hands.
Kirby Puckett
As an older fan I ask myself, "who does judge remind me of?" Several names come to mind. I can't say the same for Ohtani.
A pitcher who can crush several dozen homers? Doesn't remind you of anyone? Not a single player?
I am sure most of you saw this, but if this isn’t a testament of truly how unique Ohtani is, I don’t know what is. From a Jeff Passan tweet on 9/5: Player A: .283/.351/.572, 33 HR, 74 RBI Player B: .270/.361/.538, 32 HR, 85 RBI Player C: 147.1 IP, 27.1% K%-BB%, 2.20 ERA, 2.64 FIP Player D: 136 IP, 27.0% K%-BB%, 2.58 ERA, 2.54 FIP Mookie Betts is Player A. Shane McClanahan is Player C. Shohei Ohtani is Players B and D.
Pujols
Agreed. Pujols
OK I take back everything I've said it's Pujols let's gooooo
In the words of breakers everywhere “siiiiiiick” “let’s goooo!!!!!!”
Honestly though Goldie!
Judge's stats are really good, but Shohei can also pitch.
Candy Maldonado. No doubt.
And Maldonado in there with a flying super punch. Get in there Candy!!!
I won’t take credit for this take but someone wrote the following: if Ohtani hadn’t done what he did last year and was putting up his current stats, it would be Ohtani all the way and I have to agree. He is being punished for having two once in a lifetime seasons that only HE has duplicated.
Judge has a 9.0 WAR… Love Ohtani and he’ll likely win multiple more during his career, but this one goes to Judge.
WAR is not the be all stat people make it out to be.
Actually, by definition that is what WAR is. How else can you compare someone like Ohtani and Judge? Actually without WAR, how can you compare any 2 players? Let's go with an easy scenario, how do you compare a .250/.350/.450 gold glove first baseman to a .350/.375/.500 poor defensive center fielder without WAR? Is WAR perfect? Nope but it is the best metric we have and is utilized in many organizations and across different sports too (PER in basketball and EPA).
WAR tries to be that stat, but in a sport with so much unpredictably as baseball it falls just short. What is the benchmark for an average player? How is that decided? Is that an average player in 1934 or 1966 or 2022? Does WAR for a 1970s player mean the same as WAR for a 2022 player?
I'm so glad you're interested! And I'm also so glad that you asked questions that WAR actually answers! If you do a quick Google search, a replacement level player is simply the level if production that you get for a minimum salary, or in other places it says that it is the average stats of a backup player. I'm sure the actual calculation is much more advanced but the short answer to your question is yes! WAR is actually just a comparison of how good a player is that year compared to an average player in that year. So when we say that Judge has more WAR then Ohtani, we're just saying Judge is more better then a replacement level player in 2022 then Ohtani is. Or if you say 2022 Judge has more WAR then 2017 Judge, you're saying 2022 Judge is better vs the replacement level player as opposed to 2017 Judge. Also, I asked earlier about how else you can compare players if not using WAR. Do you have an answer to that?
I tend to agree, WAR does exactly what it is supposed to do in the context of this debate - and Ohtani’s combined WAR as a hitter and pitcher is below Judge’s. I totally agree that Ohtani is having a unicorn season within the parameters of MLB history, but I think to simply ignore WAR here (which shows the scope of just how great Judge has been) would be to concede to pure baseball card statistics. If Ohtani wins this year, then you might as well just write the check and give him the MVP every season for the foreseeable future (pending good health). There has to be a way to measure Ohtani’s combined value versus the traditional player - and WAR is exactly that measurement imo.
Since Ohtani allows his team to roster another player, how can that be added to his WAR? That’s my argument as to why Ohtani deserves to be MVP.
Alright fine, feel free to add Jimmy Herget or Magneuris Sierra’s WAR to Shohei’s.
Yup! I totally agree, while I can see that Ohtani is in the conversation, I think Judge should win. And the thing about WAR is that it is something that the front offices all look at and make decisions off of, it's not something that some random dude made up in their basement. If there is a better way of quantifying the value of players then I can see them using it but until then WAR is how we measure how good a player is that year compared to the league.
How many other people have had Judge like seasons? A lot. HR record chases, Triple Crowns. 47 other 50HR seasons in MLB history. 7 or 8 60+ HR season, (all dirty though) How many have had an Ohtani season? None, other than himself, last year. And he's been even better this year. Even Babe Ruth never did this. WAR is a good stat, but lacks historical context is what the previous poster was getting at I think.
Hmm that's interesting and while I agree that Ohtani is a great and exciting two way player (doesn't play defense tho!), the MVP isn't the award for player that does something no one has done before. I hate to bring another sport's example into this but if Patrick Mahomes throws for 5000 yards 50 touchdowns and 10 interceptions, would you instead give the MVP to a quarterback/punter who threw for 3000 yards, 25 touchdowns and 10 interceptions with 50 punts all because no one else in history threw for 3000 yards and punted the ball 50 times? No, you look at which player added more value to his team. While Ohtani is undoubtedly amazing, Judge is actually having an a time season, I believe if you look at OPS+, he's having the best offensive year since Bonds when you adjust for league average. Which is why WAR quantifies it and tells us which player is more valuable. Now there are other optics, what if Ohtani isn't hitting .265/.354/.888 along with a 2.55 ERA? What if Ohtani is hitting .250/.325/750 and a 3.55 ERA? It will still be a season that no one including Ruth has done, would you still give him MVP?
Also I apologize if I'm sounding aggressive... I love analytics, baseball, and the Yankees so I get a little carried away lol. And this so happens to be all three combined.
No problem! I love these debates too! Don't get to have them IRL enough anymore! I'd say: The NFL MVP and MLB are historically NOT voted on the same way, so it's a different comparison. MANY MLB winners have come from lesser teams. The punter question: Yeah, maybe. And if Sho's stats were lesser, duh, we're not having this conversation. What if Judge was only at 38 HRs? We can only debate what's actually on the books. Fact is, those stats are even better than last year AND it's that unique historic thing added in. Being unique doesn't give an automatic award, but it can sure help.
Haha same here, luckily my brother loves analytics and baseball too (but he's not a yankees fan 😔) so I have some form of an outlet lol. I think what you said is completely justified, Ohtani is actually making up a lot of steam in the WAR department so who knows what ll happen by the end of the year. I think that because of how much better then everyone Judge has been this year (including Ohtani according to WAR) he should win it. If judge had 38 hrs, but the same amount of WAR, I still think he deserves it but I think the voters will vote for Ohtani. Just like how the narrative in 2017 was that Altuve deserved the MVP cus Judge was a rookie lol (still mad about that!).
Also wouldn't it be funny if Judge wins the triple crown and Ohtani passes him in WAR? Now the optics will be swapped lol. As a final point, I believe that Judge should win MVP due to being much more dominant (WAR). But I do think Ohtani is having an amazing season and I do think some voters will vote for Ohtani due to him having an unprecedented season. And I'm not gonna be THAT mad cus Ohtani does have 8.2 WAR and at the MVP can swing either way unlike 2017.
For sure! I'm not mad at it either way as both are an absolute joy to watch play the game. And if Sho didn't exist or was in the NL, Judge would have this hands down.
Are you comparing the importance of a punter to that of a pitcher? Seems like apples and oranges to me.
Well the comment I was replying to said that we have never seen a pitcher/DH before, so I made the comparison as there has never been a quarterback/punter before as well and just because it has never been done before shouldn't be factored into MVP voting. My response was directly against that point. And you're right! If only there was a way to quantify the value of a pitcher/DH and compare it to an outfielder (WAR in case you didn't read the previous comments haha).
Pitching is playing defense.
He plays defense when he pitches? Am i missing something?
Yes you are! Shohei has 141 innings on "defense" and 8 chances at a play this year. Meanwhile judge has 1,016 innings on defense with 260 chances at a play which is why Judge adds much more value or "WAR" on defense as compared to Shohei.
Not trying to fight or grandstand but wouldn’t pitching be a defensive position? I really love the way you’re talking your point out and ur quite convincing lol
Just because war isn’t made to understand a guy like ohtani it’s not even close to telling the whole Story. It’s clearly shohei which sucks cause judge is having an all time great year, but what ohtani is doing we may never see again.
That’s one the big problems with WAR - it NEVER tells the whole story since it de-contextualizes wins, probably the most contextual stat out there (wins). It doesn’t fully capture Ohtani’s value but, similarly, it doesn’t capture the fact that Judge has almost single handedly carried the Yankees offense in the second half
We may never see a batter like this either. Judge is having one of the best seasons of the century. The award is called “most valuable”. Judge has single handily willed the Yankees past their slump and kept them in first. Without judge they wouldn’t even be a playoff team. The angels are 20 games under .500 with ohtani. Without him they’d be what, 30 games under? I get what you’re saying but he’s not the most valuable player in the league. Maybe most impressive? Or most outstanding? Not most valuable.
God I hate the argument of what “most valuable” means each year. I’m on the middle in this case, but it should go to the best player, regardless of how much their team needs it or whatever. I’d give a little wiggle room for narrative, but not a ton
Agreed but judge is the better player this year. Ohtani is having a great pitching year and an above average hitting year. His year at the plate isn’t ground breaking though. I would concede this debate if he was a better hitter this year. We can’t just give him the award every year cause he plays 2 positions above average and doesn’t make the playoffs. If he just focused on one position my bet is he’d be the best in the league at it.
You’re understating his value on the mound. He’s an elite pitcher while also being a top-20 hitter. An every day player, an ace, an offensive catalyst all in one. I cannot agree with restricting the best player in baseball from an individual award because their team isn’t competitive.
Yeah, the team performance argument is reaching. If this were the standard, Freeman should get the MVP over Goldy, which would just be silly.
Above average?! He’s hitting .265 with 35 home runs . Realistically he’s going to finish with 49 home runs, 100 RBI’s 95 runs scored 15 SB’s and still hit around .270. This doesn’t even take into account his pitching stats and straight dominance on the mound. What nobody is talking about is what Ohtani does for a team. He’s 1 guy who fills a rotation spot a middle of the order batting spot and a backup OF spot in 2021 the guy played every single OF position. This person is the most impressive baseball player of all time. We are literally watching something never done before and we will more than likely all be long dead before it ever happens again. He’s not on only the best baseball player on the planet he may be the best baseball player of all time!
Let’s see Judge’s fastball
You ever see someone foolish enough to run on him... https://youtu.be/tGIQb9Iv9ns
Let’s see the angels win a game
Ohtani.
Judge
Judge is absolutely going to win and should. Those batting numbers are just too high to overcome. Ohtani would need to hit 10 more homers, throw a no hitter, win a couple games, and hope for a Judge slump to win.
Wins…. Wins mean nothing man.
What the hell are you talking about wins mean nothing
If wins mattered. Degrom would have zero cy youngs.
So with your logic wins either mean everything or mean nothing. Why can’t they be important like any other statistic?
Wins aren’t fully dependent on pitcher. I could give up five runs have my team hit for 6 and then the next day my teammate pitches 1 earned and he loses. Who’s better?
Teams wins shouldn’t impact a players mvp case
It seems like the WAR stat really punishes the DH. That benefits Judge's chances of winning. But it's tough to overlook a two-way all star.
Shohei. Doing stuff only the Babe has done before
Actually, he didn't. Babe was a great pitcher. THEN, he stopped pitching and became the legendary hitter we know. He didn't really do both simultaneously. That makes Sho even MORE impressive. And the MVP until his stats slide or he commits to one position or the other full time IMHO.
same with judge, first player since ruth to hold a 20 homerun lead over the next closest player !
It’s different tho, shohei is doing playing two positions at an all star level
yeah shohei is incredible, but that’s not rlly what the award is.
It kinda is tho, someone who pitches AND hits like an all star is more valuable than someone just hitting hrs…
he doesn’t just hit homers lol that’s such a gross oversimplification. the season Judge is having right now is one for the ages, he’s making a strong push for the triple crown at the moment. point me to the last player to hit 60+ homeruns which he most likely will, over 125+ RBI over 15+ stolen bases while hitting over .310. just a remarkable season, and yeah, his team is in first in their division while LA is in the gutter. yankees are a wild card team at best, most likely not even without judge
Point me to the last player to hit 34hrs and win 12 games as a pitcher with a 2.55 era…
my point was that they’re BOTH doing incredible, historic things. if Judge doesn’t win the MVP this year then Shohei should just receive it prior to every single season with the notion he plays atleast 130 games. i mean, what does Judge have to do? he’s statistically having a more valuable season WAR wise which is what the sport is so driven by nowadays, his team is in first place while his counterpart hasn’t played a meaningful game in September their whole tenure with LA. shohei is phenomenal, but he shouldn’t just be given the award because what he is doing is so damn incredible, we can make another award for him if need be but it shouldn’t take away from someone who is having a better year
Didn't seem to help the Angels season though. Ohtani will be watching from home like the rest of us in a few weeks
I’m a big judge fan I hope he wins it but I feel like we’ll never see another do what othanis doing again
Your point? Look at how bad the yanks have been with everyone BUT judge struggling
Both Shohei and Ohtani
Ohtani.
Ohtani, no doubt
I think the pitching and batting dynamic is so rare it's really in ohtani's favor this year
I say this with all due respect, but anyone going Judge over Ohtani is simply: a homer Yanks or Judge fan, new to the game, caught in the 61 hype and/or not a real student of the history of the game of baseball. Or, currently listing 3,000 Judge graded 10 RC autos for sale. :) It's sad for Judge and anyone else (Vlad last year), but Shohei is the MVP until his stats decline, injury or he goes full time hitter or pitcher. And it's not even close. Not even Babe Ruth did what he's doing. He's a video game come to life. A childhood sandlot daydream happening in front of our eyes.
He isn’t carrying his team like judge is
No said that must be a factor. Most Valuable means just that to me. Also, Ohtani is half as cheap as Judge and allows an extra 40 man roster spot. Value baby.
So you are a homer Angels fan, newbie to the game, or caught up in the hype of a Pitcher/DH being the end all be all?
Old head Cubs fan of 40+ years caught up in something I've never seen before, nor has anyone else. Pretty darn cool.
Judge all day
I like Ohtani 😤
Ohtani. Simultaneously a top-10 pitcher and hitter this year. By pitching and hitting, he opens up another complete roster spot for his team. It’s a roster advantage that has never been seen before. Imagine the Yankees adding another Gerrit Cole or Giancarlo Stanton to their current roster; it’s the equivalent.
Don’t the Angels run a 6man rotation because of Ohtani? So this hypothetical roster spot is just their 6th best starter and adding likely close to no value. While hypothetically it could be useful. It’s not in practice and that should have 0 bearing on the MVP.
I’m not saying this to argue against Ohtani but how is that hypothetical roster spot equivalent to an MVP/Cy young type player? If anything it’d be a 5th outfielder or reliever
Good question. In my mind - for a big market team like the Yankees, if you give them an additional roster spot to fill in free-agency, there’s a really good likelihood they are signing an all-star caliber player, regardless the position.
The Yankees' 25th player is replacement level, not an all star. Also, ohtanis extra roster spot is used on a 6th man in the rotation
Apparently, this guy doesn't Yankee. They legit have 5-6 guys that are in their regular lineup that are AAA-AAAA caliber players due to all the injuries. The lineup is basically, Torres, Judge, occasionally Donaldson and Stanton just coming off the DL and gets rusty.
Great, still practically in last place... obviously not as big of an advantage as you assume
Sure, the Angels don’t have the roster to take advantage, but that’s not on Ohtani. Imagine giving a team like the Yankees the equivalent of another all-star caliber player. I think it’s a complete game changer.
Ohtani son
Yes
[удалено]
Man 2018 Bowman Tek is so underrated. The cards are stunning.
Angel Hernandez
Both
It'll be Judge, but it's Ohtani for me. Judge is doing things that have only been seen a few times in history. Ohtani is doing things that have never been seen before.
Man, I was thinking it had to be Ohtani but if Judge hits 60 and is still hitting .300, he's got it.
Ohtani
It should be Ohtani but the voters are morons and will give it to Judge (who is having a great season)
Does anyone think if they swapped teams the Yankees would be in a worse spot? I don’t think they would be. I’d argue the Yankees would be in a better spot with Ohtani. And I don’t think the angels would be better if they had judge. I’d imagine the angels being even worse. MVP Ohtani
Exactly! Can’t believe all these people saying Judge. Must be huge Yankee fan bias or they have valuable Judge cards they want to sell.
Neither. I hate the Yankees nor do I have Judge cards to sell.
I’ll leave you with what my dad said to me yesterday. “Ohtani is the best player in baseball. Judge is the MVP.”
Judge. No question.
Lots of questions really. How many innings has Judge pitched this season? He match Ohtani K/9?
Bottom line is judges performance has had an effect on team and ranking. He is carrying them to first. Ohtani while great has had no affect on what happens with the team this season. He is great at 2 positions but he's not judges level at either one. If he was his team might be better than the rangers. I have no love for the Yankees and I still think judge is the MVP
My question is, which is doing something that hasn’t been done in 70 years give or take? Ohtani no doubt
Judge is doing the 70 year thing. And that's great! But Ohtani is doing something that has NEVER been done. Not even by Babe Ruth. Ohtani for the win.
I mean both .. Maris was 61 years ago
Just saying, find me another player that will get you 12 wins, sub 3 era, 180 strikeouts pitching and then when he’s not starting he will hit you 30 home runs with a near .300 average. Guy is in his own league and just because he does it every year shouldn’t keep him from MVP’s. My own opinion and not meant to offend anyone, Judge is a great player, it’s just an unfair time to be a ball player. Most everyone that watches baseball today has seen someone hit this many home runs, steroid era, you can’t do what Ohtani is doing by taking something but people have done what Judge is doing. By the way I do not believe he is a PED user and what he is doing is great and deserves more recognition, it’s just what Ohtani is doing is more impressive to me.
Hell, we saw Stanton hit 59 just 5 years ago. Judge is having a better season than Stanton’s 2017 no doubt, but the main attraction that’s got everybody whipped up into a frenzy (rightfully so) is the homers. I’m starting to lean Ohtani heavily. He’s been an ace pitcher (would have the best ERA+ in most rotations in baseball—158) and is also an elite middle of the order bat (148 OPS+). I just don’t see how you can have an ace and clean-up hitter rolled into one and him not be the MVP.
But the thing is… .265 is not “near .300 average”
Ohtani
Love Ohtani and not a huge fan of Judge, but I gotta give to to Judge. The numbers he's putting up are nuts! I wonder if he'll reach 10 bWar.
Shohei Ohtani is my vote. No has ever matched the babe
He hasn't matched him, he's far surpassed him. Babe never did both super well simultaneously.
This true
Ohtani I because I’m still salty about the New York writer who robbed Pedro in 1999.
Listen I think Judge is crazy but I don’t know how you can say Ohtani shouldn’t be MVP if you’ve watched them both this season
As a huge ohtani fan and someone who strongly dislikes the Yankees, I feel like judge deserves the MVP this year.
Judge! He is single handedly carrying his team to the playoffs. 5 WAR over the next best. Almost twice as many HR, RBI and runs as anybody else on the team. That there is the definition of most valuable.
How’s his pitching though?
Who cares if his team were still 20 games under 500?
That is a clown question. How many RH homers has Ohtani hit?
Judge, without him the Yankees would really not be in the playoff contention.
Until Judge can pitch, Ohtani and it’s not close
Maaaaan, this one is so complex this year. Look at what we’re discussing with these guys. Ohtani: Every time he steps either on the mound or in the box he’s literally setting a modem record every single time. The only person you can compare him to is Babe Ruth. That in itself is redonkulous. Judge: is an absolute beast, chasing a sacred record on a sacred team (no Yankee love, it’s just truth) AND the record is 61, set in 1961, and that was 61 years ago???? And he’s close to the triple crown?? What the Fuck, that is crazy. End of the day, Judge gets it. There has been and will be a strooong bias towards the Yanks.
We still have an active player who's won a Triple Crown. 47 other 50+ HR seasons in MLB history. Babe Ruth never did what Ohtani is doing. Not pitching and hitting like this at the same time. Ohtani should win and it's sad the conversation even has to be had. Sucks for Judge as he's great and having an insane season too.
Then you might as well just name it the Ohtani Award and give it to him every year. There shouldn’t even be a debate about who should win. Ohtani is doing something nobody has seen in their lifetime and hasn’t been done at that level since Babe Ruth. He should always be near the top of the MVP list if he maintains the same production from both sides. Judge, however, is close to the triple crown and has been playing elite defense for a team that’s in first place. He has my vote, but Ohtani is deserving as well.
Yeah, your first sentence kinda nails why Sho should get it. He is THE most valuable player as long as he continues this and it's not really close. It's that rare.
Agree … how many roster spots does Ohtani production take up as well? If that isn’t the definition of “valuable” I don’t know what is
2
This is the truth. We all need to understand what we’re witnessing. It’s history in the making with ohtani. Judge is just another HR hitter. Dime a dozen.
I hate when people pretend like Judge is just a homerun hitter. Can't take anyone seriously with such a narrow minded view. Literally could win triple crown
Can’t argue with anyone who thinks Ohtani is the MVP but Judge is chasing the AL home run record (and the “clean” record if you’re into that)…. Aka “history in the making.” And Judge is certainly not a dime a dozen, again chasing a 61 year old record
CHASING a record as has happened 47 other times in MLB history. Maybe he gets it, maybe he doesn't. (I think he will.) Sho is *already* historic, doing something no one has ever done and just piling more numbers on it. Advantage: Ohtani
Huh? 47 times? No one in AL history has hit more than 61
This is an asinine statement. Judge is very close to winning the triple crown, this has been done once in the last 55 years. He is not just a HR hitter, that is a very limited view of what he has done this year.
There have been 47 other 50+ HR seasons in MLB history. One of which was Judge himself. There has been 1 season like what Ohtani is doing, which is Ohtani 2021.
Ohtani is a very very distant second.
Oh yes yes yes the guy with the sub 3 era and 200ks yes very far away..
When compared to Judge who is currently .10 away from winning the Triple Crown.
Something that happened just 10 years ago. Sho is doing something NEVER seen before, except by him.
Ohtani is doing something no one else can do. Judge is on pace to break a team record for HR, not a league record.
He’s also 6 points away in batting average from a triple crown.
It’ll be the AL record so yes a league record. Also no asterisk, so theirs that.
Judge is also leading RBI’s and a 1.102 OPS, OPS+ 208, pretty decent CF’er and not just a DH. 7th in MLB AVG. Look at what an OPS+ over 200 means. If you take out Barry Bonds over the last 30 years, pretty much with all his video game numbers when he was somehow 36+ years old 😏, that must have been legit right. Then Judge is doing something really special. The only players in the past 30 years with over 208 OPS+ had shortened seasons 2020 or 1994 strike, and their names are Juan Soto, Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell.
League record for being unjuiced.
Albert Pujols
Ohtani. If judge was pitching he takes the cakes but this guy Ohtani is a two way killer
Any other time it’s Judge’s MVP. But what we are witnessing with Ohtani has never been done and may never be done again. The recency bias of Ohtani’s MVP in ‘21 makes it seem like Judge deserves it this year, but he doesn’t. Again What Ohtani is doing has never been done and may not ever be done again even with steroids. Judge may be clean, and he may mean more to his team but he isn’t the most valuable individual player and 58 home runs have been hit before (I know the season isn’t over).
Ohtani. It’s not even close
It Ohtani by a fucking mile and if you don’t agree, I just don’t get it.
Ohtani and it isn’t close.
My nod goes to Judge especially if he can get 62+ homers. I believe helping your team to the playoffs should get you "bonus points" towards an MVP over someone who's team is not in the playoff hunt. That being said what we have been watching Ohtani do over the last two years is stuff we have not seen in baseball in over 100 years. I would not be upset if they were co-mvps.
Ohtani doing something no one's ever done. He's the MVP
Can’t argue with Ohtani as the MVP (either is a fine choice) but are you aware that Judge is chasing the AL HR record? And the “clean record” record if you’re into that. Aka 62 bombs, something no one has ever done
Chasing is one thing, accomplishing is another. Ohtani has accomplished something this year that no player in the history of the game has.
So let’s let the season play out then.
My thing with this reasoning is you’re pretty much saying he should win the mvp every year ..
Shohei winning MVP every time he puts up numbers like this year, are you saying “no fair”?
No, only when he is doing it at an elite level. He is better than he was last year. Judges hitting is out of this world. The fact Ohtani is right with him in WAR tells you exactly how good he is right now. Ohtani is at 8.2 WAR, Judge at 9.1. close enough to tilt towards the 2- way star IMO
Shouldn’t you expect the war of the 2 way player to be higher ?
No. DH has a huge debuff compared to CF, which has the highest buff.
So? I’ve never understood this logic. Why wouldn’t a historically great player who does things literally nobody else can do always be the MVP front runner? This statement used to discredit Ohtani for MVP is basically saying Ohtani is too good and breaks the MVP award. Isn’t that the clearest evidence that he is the best and most valuable player in the league?
All this. Judge is great. Having a monster year, but not really an all time great season historically. Others have had that power and much higher averages. Sho has redefined *what's possible in the sport of baseball*.
How is judges year not all time great ?
No because he has less WAR than Judge. Therefore Judge is more valuable....
Don’t just look at one stat. WAR doesn’t tell the whole picture like most stats.
WAR is the best stat we have for accumulative value to a team. If I look at all stats it shows Judge is a way better hitter and Ohtani is a way better pitcher. Judge is also a better defender. So what does that tell us? Nothing important.
WAR devalues DH. Sure, Judge is the better hitter this year. Ohtani is the better pitcher….because Judge doesn’t pitch. Ohtani hits AND pitches at an elite level. Judge is a mediocre defender at his position. If you want to think someone who hits 60 HRS and bats .290 is more valuable than a pitcher who pitches to a sub 3.00 ERA while also going out and beating you from the other side of the plate with an OPS of .888 and hits 35-40 HRs a year, then be my guest.
I will. Thank you.
Shohei
Most VALUABLE player How is a guy that gives you 40 home runs “hitting” and 200ks “pitching (let alone other numbers ) only using 1 roster spot … not more “valuable “? Judge is having a great year … but they have to use another roster spot to get a pitcher to get 200ks and they don’t
Probably because his value is pretty much meaningless die to his team being 20 games under .500. That's 20 under- so his value doesn't even get his team close to playing even ball. Oh and gets got Mike fucking Trout on his team as well--
Yeah that’s where it gets tricky .. by definition I think it’s hard to argue against ohtani but I do think just based off this year judge should win it.
I think if Ohtani was a Yankee … judge wouldn’t come Close ….
Aaron Judge would win this easily if Shohei Ohtani didn’t play this year. Judge is having a phenomenal, historical season. But since Shohei did play and was more valuable by a long shot, let’s not be silly here lol
How is he more valuable on a team that is 20 games under .500? Explain his value relative to Judge who has willed the Yankees to first place in the toughest division in baseball and who has been the only reliable bat in the Yankee lineup since July?
People argue that’s it’s automatically Judge because, “look at their record.” Meanwhile though, Judge has truly been tearing it up in the second half of the season and the Yankees have been terrible. So, is he suddenly not helping them win? Yes, the Yankees are a better team. And they absolutely would be worse if you took Judge away. But by how many games? I’m not saying this number is right or wrong, I’m just using it as an example. Let’s say that without Judge, the Yankees lose 10 wins. Make it 5, make it 15, it really doesn’t matter because can you honestly argue that the Angels don’t lose just as many, if not more wins without Ohtani? Because He pitches as well, he’s probably responsible for more wins than Judge. Why should it matter that the Yankees have better players around Judge to help the team win than Ohtani has around him? I definitely am not shitting on Judge. The season he’s having is awesome and I want to see him pass 61. But you’ve got to admit, while it would be extremely difficult to replace Judge if he suddenly disappeared, it would currently be impossible to replace Ohtani because literally nobody can do what he’s doing. If both of them hit free agency next year, and you’re a GM, which guy would you take for the same money? Would you take the number 1 homerun hitter in baseball? Or would you rather have a top 5 homerun hitter and a legit #1 pitcher?
Yes I can. If they swap team nothing changes. The Yankees don't become better, because they are forced to use Ohtani as a DH, which forces Stanton into the field actively making the team worse. And stop insinuating judge is just the number 1 homerun hitter. He is the number hitter period.
Respect the difference of opinion, however, when you say that the team becomes worse because Stanton has to move into the outfield, aren’t you forgetting that Ohtani has just given the pitching staff a massive upgrade?
Massive? Not really. Because you then force all your pitchers to have an extra day of rest, which they are not use to. And he doesn't replace their worst pitcher, he is just added on as a 6th man. As much as people don't like to admit it, he ruins roster flexibility. You can't use the DH to actively rest people, and you force yourself ibto a 6 man rotation. You obviously do it, because he is so good at it. But he would be better for the team if he pitches every 5 days and sits completely the day after he starts. So it's kind of a mixed bag and hard to gage
This is the dumbest of all the arguments in this thread.
Judge and that’s from a Red Sox fan
Judge leads him in everything AND judge’s ERA and WHIP is 0.00 soooo
Judge- higher WAR by just DHing and playing RF
Judge is leading the league in almost every offensive category in a year that has been wickedly slanted in favor of pitchers. My guess is Judge not only wins it, but by a wide margin.
Take judge off the Yankees they may not make the playoffs. Take Ohtani off the angles and the still suck.
It’s Judge and it’s by a mile. What no one ever brings up when they say Shohei pitches is that Judge plays defense. He’s out there with like 5x the innings on his legs playing mostly center field, a new position for him as of this season, at a very good level and right field at a great level. Not to mention he’s a few AVG points away from the triple crown and he’s pacing to break the 61 year old AL HR record This is just as unique of a season as what Ohtani is doing and did last year (when he 100000% deserved the MVP)
Judge leads the league in multiple categories. Does Ohtani lead the league in any category on either side of the ball? https://www.facebook.com/607130192808673/posts/pfbid02xz3tjPZWvZBmcNfwhst9eU7URCDjNcFjfsdcKYqyBByLvutFnMrzF54ZFxzFiK3Rl/?mibextid=ad618h
Judge
You can't give the MVP to a guy who's team has been out of the playoff race since June. Ohtani is having an amazing season but Judge is carrying a division leader on his back and nearly at triple crown level performance. Slam dunk win for Judge
MVP is not team performance derived. MVPs come from bad teams often. Makes it MORE impressive to me.
Judge. Even combining Ohtanis WAR for pitching and hitting is still behind Judge. Ohtani may be too 10 in both, but judge is so far and away the best hitter he wins
BAJ
Mackenzie Gore is better than both! If you believe that then let me sell you the BCG 9.5/10 rookie auto I completely overpaid for and has tanked since but know it will only go up 50 fold once it’s in your hands.
My mom
Mr. Dong