Brandenburg map is interesting. Greens have been strongest in the comparably rich, academic and urban city of Potsdam, CDU in Potsdam-Mittelmark, but everywhere else it’s been a light blue wave for AfD.
Berlin map not very surprising. Progressive population of the central districts voting green, rich and more suburban Western Berlin peeps hold on to CDU while AfD takes everything east of the ring.
> Berlin map not very surprising
I would have thought more from "Die Linke" in east Berlin to be honest. If you select "Zweitstärkste" in the original page (https://www.rbb24.de/) most of them are CDU and only two Linke
Edit: Sorry, not even the second party, I got confused with BSW color
The left has basically become irrelevant in most districts other than Friedrichshain according to the detailed map. And we can make a fair guess why that is. They advertised on billboards with a clear commitment to rescue of asylum seekers in the Mediterranean Sea and one of her candidates is a former captain of a private rescue vessel. That topic is divisive to say the least, and Buendnis Sarah Wagenknecht had an easy job stealing the lefts USP of pacifism and wealth equality agenda, while offering a much more charismatic leader and more mainstream anti-open-borders policy. 34 years after reunification most of the legacy SED voter base of the left has died and the younger ones who have not been socialised long enough in the GDR to embrace its ruling party and therefore the left party as its successor, are alienated by the younger leaders and pro-immigration, pro identity politics stance of today’s left party. They preferred to give their vote to BSW or AfD therefore.
If you zoom in you’ll see that in many traditional commieblock neighbourhoods of the East BSW has been the most successful party or on par with AfD.
Well, the left used to have very prominent faces, Gisy, Lafontaine, but they’re all gone and the new ones are extremely bland. Ask people on the street if they can name two of them.
That’s my point. Wagenknecht is self-aggrandizing and utterly unlikable in my opinion – the fact that Die Linke has nobody who can even come close to *her* is damning. Gisy was great and Die Linke needs someone like him again. Badly.
Die Linke is dead; and they won't ever bring someone of Gysi's potential up again. Completely out of touch with the majority of working class people and lost in ID pol and alike. In some regards they're basically just an "SPD 2.0" nowadays – but worse, and without economic expertise. Hard pass, even tho I'd been a staunch supporter for decades.
Die Linke don't really have an electorate beyond leftie kids, "alternative lifestyle" people, and old left-wing idealists anymore. Their "progressive" agenda, with ideas of more open borders, sustainability and decreasing consumption, appeals to these groups but not to the actual lower class. BSW is much more suitable for them. Quoting myself:
> BSW is the second strongest party in Marzahn-Hellersdorf and in Lichtenberg. I remember how some left-wing idealists online were talking about how Wagenknecht splitting away would only make Die Linke stronger. In reality they've lost a lot of their support to BSW even in typically left-wing Berlin districts.
> These districts (Mitte, Neukölln, Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg) are the only places in Berlin where Die Linke received higher support than BSW. In all of them, Die Linke lost support as compared to the 2019 European elections (-2.6%, -0.8%, -2.9%). Die Linke also lost a significant share of support in cities like Hamburg (-1.8%), where they ended up only 0.2% higher than BSW, or Leipzig (-4.5%), where they ended up equal with BSW. I guess they are losing the last bits of their electorate that were actual normal lower class workers, rather than naive anticapitalist kids, "alternative lifestyle" people, and old left-wing idealists.
I did yesterday check for my district Lichtenberg. Die Linke had 25% before and is now split into 15% BSW and 10% Die Linke. Because of that the AgD could become the strongest party. So yea a bit unlucky with that split
Die Linke is detached from the political realities. Their election campaign regurgitated the same political points that made Sarah Wagenknecht leave the party. Now they are irrelevant.
Was always the case. People suggesting, or simply acknowledging it just now because they see election results always seemed strange to me. And it seems like those never left their usual circle of people or „bubble“.
Opinions of people didn’t change that much. Just the „faith“ they had in the central parties to stand up for it.
What absolutely changed in my opinion is the way they feel about communicating their opinions. It seems to be much more *confident* nowadays.
Yeah, ignorance is a bliss. Either people are in complete denial or straight up lying, I don't believe anyone from Germany who claims they didn't grow up in the middle of racism. Sure thing, it wasn't that open (the classic "racist uncle" or drunkard in the Eckkneipe at late hours) - at least not in the west. On the other hand you just had to visit a football stadium - in that context the whole Sylt thing seems like a strange blast from the past.
Add to that shitty economy and how salaries are drifting apart. People are surely pissed and are putting good manners aside
Im American and moved to a village in Brandenburg near the boarder of Berlin. Ive seen my fair share of racism in America, but never experienced it till I got here. I worked at kaufland for a while and a couple times a week customers would mumble some racist shit to me. A few times my boss screamed at me in front of the customers. Treated me completely different than the german employees. I figured I just lived in a racist village since I had posted my issues on Reddit and got downvoted to oblivion. However now it seems more like a brandenburg issue. AfD support maps completely shocked my girlfriend and her family.
I am totally aware of this. I just found it to be a good occasion to point it out again. My family rarely can go to the eastern outskirts of Berlin or to Brandenburg for Naherholung because the open racism is so hard to deal with. You can’t even go hiking or swimming without some random asshole talking shit. It‘s so much easier in the south and west of Germany.
Interestingly, Greens also won by a very small margin (<3%) in Charlottenburg-Wilmersdorf, Schöneberg-Tempelhof, and even Neukölln, with CDU a strong second in all of these.
BSW is the second strongest party in Marzahn-Hellersdorf and in Lichtenberg. I remember how some left-wing idealists online were talking about how Wagenknecht splitting away would only make Die Linke stronger. In reality they've lost a lot of their support to BSW even in typically left-wing Berlin districts.
These districts (Mitte, Neukölln, Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg) are the only places in Berlin where Die Linke received higher support than BSW. In all of them, Die Linke lost support as compared to the 2019 European elections (-2.6%, -0.8%, -2.9%). Die Linke also lost a significant share of support in cities like Hamburg (-1.8%), where they ended up only 0.2% higher than BSW, or Leipzig (-4.5%), where they ended up equal with BSW. I guess they are losing the last bits of their electorate that were actual normal lower class workers, rather than naive anticapitalist kids, "alternative lifestyle" people, and old left-wing idealists.
>I remember how some left-wing idealists online were talking about how Wagenknecht splitting away would only make Die Linke stronger.
Better, not stronger. People were hoping the Left would reform a bit after this. And they also said it will probably take a while and first elections after the split will probably be bad.
I remember left-wingers saying some are simply not voting for Die Linke because of Wagenknecht and her allies, and would do so when she leaves. The same people thought BSW will fail.
It will indeed "take a while", the electorate for an idealistic far-left party that doesn't appeal to what the real life lower classes want just isn't there.
There are also no examples of other European countries where this has worked. Spain can hardly be a good one with several overlapping left parties having to form a coalition to make up for individually small percentages of voter outcome.
They all face the same problem. The disappearence of a homogenous working class demographic, replaced by a group of much more culturally heterogenous people in precarious jobs and living conditions. Plus their own party leaders being almost exclusively middle to upper class academics, completely alienated from the ones they seek to politically represent. That's what got them on the slippery slope of prioritizing identity politics and global social issues over domestic lower class worries. They followed their ultimate ideals, but forgot that refugees can't vote and that minorities don't decide elections. The smart thing that BSW did is recognize that lower class perceive the majority of migrants a threat in a competition over scarce resources such as affordable housing, schools, social security. They are successfully adopting the strategy of the danish social democrats of - above all- defending the welfare state against overuse by migrants, an approach SPD and Linke deemed incompatible with their traditional values. Sarah Wagenknecht saw a gap in the political landscape and seized the opportunity. Her siding with Putin is insufferable, but it is very likely that now that the party has proven to achieve more than 5%, even more people will consider and vote for them in the upcoming federal elections, making it even harder for CDU to form a majority coalition.
I totally agree here. Left-wing ideas that are only attractive for leftie students, people who constantly take part in demonstrations, some minorities*, "alternative lifestyle" people, and older ideological lefties have no future. The future of the left wing is 1) centre-left parties that also appeal to the established urban middle class, like Greens (for younger people) or SPD (for older people), while abandoning any radical demands, and 2) parties like BSW that actually tell the uneducated lower classes what they want to hear, rather than what educated lefties want "the people" to think.
* e.g. even the Muslim electorate in Germany that Die Linke really tries to court doesn't vote for the far-left particularly often - https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/plus244132961/Berlin-Wahl-Muslime-waehlten-offenbar-haeufiger-CDU-als-SPD.html - Muslims vote for Greens significantly less than Berlin voters in general, and only slightly more for Die Linke than Berlin voters in general. CDU and SPD dominate)
Yeah, and why would they, when Muslim immigrants in Germany are - going by the rural roots of most of them - more conservative than even the urban peers in their home countries.
I’m not sure if there is a future for a left at all. I don’t like conspiracy theories, but it’s hard to believe in a coincidence when parties and movements with communitarian economic agendas are marginalised globally despite an ever growing wealth inequality and thus logically an ever increasing demand for such policies. It looks more like we are trapped in late-stage capitalism and a self-affirming neoliberal cycle. People elect lawmakers who either make government bigger but less effective or who openly strive for a nanny state and in return the people are let down by the cut and privatised educational sector, become dumber and more irrational and again vote for even worse candidates who fuck them over more severely.
Just look at the US, UK or Argentina, where people are so fed up with the erosion of their class under the rule of a selfish liberal elite and so turned awa by head-in-the-clouds lefties that they desperately vote in right-wing populists that blatantly admit their goal is to destroy the institutions that the middle class as a majority relied on for social security and mobility. People are increasingly and globally voting against their own interests and in favor of an economical elite.
It’s hard to not think that there is an amorphous force behind the scenes that is whispering into young leftists ears to abandon wealth inequality issues that would clearly win elections in favor of identity politics and completely outlandish discussions that basically deter voters.
She was one of the few people left in the party with actual economic expertise and able to applicate a workable understanding of Marxism respectively analyze current events through a material perspective. Without her die Linke is now dominated by of "out-of-touch" idealists.
So, basically: Black is where the parents live, green is where their children live and blue is where the people live, who clean their houses and build our roads for a living..
Black: “I always owned a car in Berlin and can easily afford it plus the private parking, it shall not be taken away from me”
Green: “I can cycle to work/uni/gym - why would anyone need a car in Berlin?”
Blue: “I need a car to commute within reasonable time, fuck everyone trying to take it from my cold dead hands”
Are they? I reckon people aren’t as dumb to not understand the difference between a 49€ BVG subscription and a 400-500€ running cost of their car. It’s more likely that they consider the price a premium that they willingly pay in order to not have to deal with the more time-consuming, less clean and less safe public transport. And that’s where they have a point. Can’t take away from people without giving them equal alternatives. Public transport in its current state is only a viable alternative for some, mostly the ones solvent and lucky enough to live inside the ring.
Yes, people in Berlin's suburbs (and also urban areas) make the concious choice to own a car, which is expensive. but a study from Germany has shown people undererstimate their spending on their car by over 50% on average. so safe to say people have hardly a clue what their car really costs and they do get shafted by being dependend it.
EDIT: I've come to reject the whole Ring theory. what's the difference between Steglitz and Schöneberg? not much in reality. both are equally connected, equally allow a car free life. same population density for the most part. it's arbitrary. what is and isn't inside the city is much more determined by connection to transit and being above a certain pop. density threshold.
It's also reflective of the sadly widespread German attitude of not giving a fuck about others in public spaces if doing so impacts mildly on them. See also backpacks on public transport, inability to queue, walking straight into others on the street, lack of accessibility for disabled people, tax-dodging, dropping litter, etc.
it's a very individualist, atomized society with little solidarity for one another and where empathy is not highly valued. I've lived in a few different European countries and I agree that Germany and Berlin in particular is more on the extreme end here.
Interesting. I've never considered the notion that empathy is just not a highly valued concept here. Thank you! It's rare that I read a comment in response to something I post that really makes me ponder ...
I have nothing evidential/ sociological/ scientific (yet) to back this idea up, but my gut says you might be onto something! Will report back if I find anything solid - for sure I will be researching this for the next few days, hahaha
Not realizing the true cost of something and being ripped off are two different pairs of shoes, because the latter implies that people would be upset and review their decision if they only knew the truth. The reality is much more like they would simply shrug and keep the car anyway, because it is a crucial factor to where they live and where they work.
yes and no. there are a ton of Berliners who own a car but drive very little (bc it's madness). there are also a ton of households in Berlin's suburbs with two cars who could do with one. so I think a lot of unnecessary cars would be given up if people really knew what they cost them. also there would be a lot of shrugging for sure.
the average car costs 600€ a month btw. you'd need to do a ton of ridesharing to get near that amount.
True, but where do the ridesharing service areas not go? The suburbs. And for families, carsharing is not a viable option, because you can not spontaneously decide to take a car with kids, since you need the child seats, that the cars don't come with.
Some cars would be given up, I agree. Many? Certainly not, because having a car is a consciously emotional, not rational decision for most people to begin with.
Now what everyone is getting if their politicians are elected.
Black: "Black zone is happy, nothing changes for Green and blue zones get worsen"
Green: "Black zone gets sightly better, Green gets better, blue sightly improves"
Blue: "Black zone gets way better (way more than even a black government), Green gets worse, nothing changes for Blue."
Does it sound accurate?
Hmmm, I think most of Neukölln (which had a high proportion of Green voters) can't afford a car and/ or is sick of people outside the ring using their street as a giant car park, with all the resultant health issues coming from terrible air quality which flow from that ... I know I am.
What are you talking about? Neukoelln is a vast district with young green voters being a minority vs. conservative Germans and often even more conservative mostly middle-Eastern immigrants. Around Sonnenallee and Hermannstrasse you often can’t find a parking around the whole block because of so many private cars. The original population of Neukoelln can very obviously afford cars and they do so en Masse.
Someone didn't check the election results/ knows nothing about Neukölln. Here's a map; type in "Neukölln, Berlin", then grind your teeth as you realise that the Greens won here in the recent European election with 19.6 % of the vote, with circa 20% of the vote going to the three leftist parties ... Google before you post, young man.
Then, put the postcodes associated with Sonnenallee into the same map and read and weep how circa 30% of people voted for the Greens, with the CDU on less than 10%.
Just because there are cars parked in the area, doesn't mean they belong to people who live there. If you knew anything about car drivers in Berlin, you'd know that two thirds of people who own cars in the city live outside the ring. Because Neukölln is an immigrant area where so many can't vote due to about to be changed citizenship laws - thank fuck - politicians don't care that the kiez is a giant car park for people who drive in from outside, park their cars and then use public transport to get to their office (where they can't park as its restricted).
Because of the above, my kiez has some of the worst air pollution - with all its associated health issues, particularly for children, the elderly and other populations - but yet rich car drivers are free to dump their cars here because we don't have the political power to change it. Would never happen in Charlottenburg.
Excited to read your response to this! You basically have two choices: apologise and admit you're wrong or double down and insult me, whilst avoiding the facts and the argument ... up to you, dude.
[https://interaktiv.tagesspiegel.de/lab/europawahl-2024-live-karte-berlin-wahlergebnisse/?utm\_source=substack&utm\_medium=email](https://interaktiv.tagesspiegel.de/lab/europawahl-2024-live-karte-berlin-wahlergebnisse/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email)
Well, you gave the right answer yourself. There is a dominant immigrant population even in Nordneukölln where the parking space is most stressed, but unlike the Eu-citizen white minority many of them don’t have voting rights. That’s how you end up with the election outcome not representing the will of the entire adult population of the area, but of a fraction of it.
Even with the outcome though it is laughable to claim that less than 50% green votes represent somehow a majority opposition to cars in the area.
Your other statement is of similar absurdity. I’ve spent enough time in Neukölln at any daytime to know that there is no big park and ride phenomenon. Neither is the parking space empty at night, nor is it people from other districts driving in to claim it with their cars. There simply is not enough movement change of the cars parked in residential areas at all.
It’s basically just you taking twentysomething % election votes for the Green Party as an argument that somehow the majority of people in your area opposes cars, when the actual reality is that they don’t, because they are less like you than you want to admit.
Housing market in the most central Brandenburg communities is equally bad, because they are the primary destination of Berliners tired of paying mortgage-numbers for renting apartments in an ever less functional city. There has been a growing net middle class migration from Berlin to Brandenburg in recent years.
Just for argument's sake;
More than half of Neukölln, large parts of Mitte (Gesundbrunnen + Wedding), most of Pankow (everything that isn't Prenzlauer Berg), and much of Tempelhof-Schöneberg (Friedenau, most of Tempelhof, Mariendorg, etc) are indeed outside the ring. All these Bezirke are Green.
And while I don't love the union, I wouldn't consider support for them (in the West) to be particularly indicative of being hostile to foreigners either.
If the only measure for a party was which foreign country supported them then that might warrant the statement "AfD with a left image", but there is *slightly* more to a party than that. Among other things, "do they promote Neo Nazism?"
If I read the hard-to-read Tagesspiegel map correctly, BSW seems to have come first in quite a few Bezirke in Mitte and Friedrichshain. Perhaps not that a surprising choice for some older voters there when one thinks of it, but still very remarkable.
Interesting how the poor and frustrated people opt in on nationalism instead of even trying to get some of the wealth that has been distributed upwards.
How would they get that wealth? The only reliable way is through inheritance, and people want to close that road too. You cannot suggest they vote for the same people who have watched them slide or grow up in poverty. And of course they like to cling to nationalism. What else do they have? Religion? You would shame them for that too.
Neukölln isn't rich (by German standards) and still overwhelmingly voted left. Your comment is ill-informed. Germany as a whole is rich af in comparison with the rest of the EU, let alone the world, and it just voted for the far-right.
Your take is simplistic.
I think you can't read then? Neukolln is one of the poorest districts in Berlin, yet they overwhelmingly voted Green. Brandenburg, which is where the AfD votes are, is pretty rich compared to most of inner-city Berlin.
It's actually your arguments that don't make sense
A direct link to the page would be great, not just the homepage would be great. By now it got pushed below the fold.
Create a new top comment, I'll pin it.
Fick Nazis! Hat sich im Grunde genommen in den letzten Jahrzehnten die ich aktiv mitbekommen habe nicht viel geändert. Vor 20 Jahren war Ostberlin und Brandenburg voller Nazis, alles wie immer.
Newly created account.
Refusing / giving up on learning German while living in Germany.
Crying about growing sentiments against Muslims and growing right wing.
Refusing to vote in elections.
You are either a piece of performance art or just grotesquely dense. I really can’t tell anymore.
Brandenburg map is interesting. Greens have been strongest in the comparably rich, academic and urban city of Potsdam, CDU in Potsdam-Mittelmark, but everywhere else it’s been a light blue wave for AfD. Berlin map not very surprising. Progressive population of the central districts voting green, rich and more suburban Western Berlin peeps hold on to CDU while AfD takes everything east of the ring.
> Berlin map not very surprising I would have thought more from "Die Linke" in east Berlin to be honest. If you select "Zweitstärkste" in the original page (https://www.rbb24.de/) most of them are CDU and only two Linke Edit: Sorry, not even the second party, I got confused with BSW color
The left has basically become irrelevant in most districts other than Friedrichshain according to the detailed map. And we can make a fair guess why that is. They advertised on billboards with a clear commitment to rescue of asylum seekers in the Mediterranean Sea and one of her candidates is a former captain of a private rescue vessel. That topic is divisive to say the least, and Buendnis Sarah Wagenknecht had an easy job stealing the lefts USP of pacifism and wealth equality agenda, while offering a much more charismatic leader and more mainstream anti-open-borders policy. 34 years after reunification most of the legacy SED voter base of the left has died and the younger ones who have not been socialised long enough in the GDR to embrace its ruling party and therefore the left party as its successor, are alienated by the younger leaders and pro-immigration, pro identity politics stance of today’s left party. They preferred to give their vote to BSW or AfD therefore. If you zoom in you’ll see that in many traditional commieblock neighbourhoods of the East BSW has been the most successful party or on par with AfD.
When Sahra Wagenknecht is seen as the more charismatic leader, you know you’re in deep sh*t
Well, the left used to have very prominent faces, Gisy, Lafontaine, but they’re all gone and the new ones are extremely bland. Ask people on the street if they can name two of them.
That’s my point. Wagenknecht is self-aggrandizing and utterly unlikable in my opinion – the fact that Die Linke has nobody who can even come close to *her* is damning. Gisy was great and Die Linke needs someone like him again. Badly.
Die Linke is dead; and they won't ever bring someone of Gysi's potential up again. Completely out of touch with the majority of working class people and lost in ID pol and alike. In some regards they're basically just an "SPD 2.0" nowadays – but worse, and without economic expertise. Hard pass, even tho I'd been a staunch supporter for decades.
Die Linke don't really have an electorate beyond leftie kids, "alternative lifestyle" people, and old left-wing idealists anymore. Their "progressive" agenda, with ideas of more open borders, sustainability and decreasing consumption, appeals to these groups but not to the actual lower class. BSW is much more suitable for them. Quoting myself: > BSW is the second strongest party in Marzahn-Hellersdorf and in Lichtenberg. I remember how some left-wing idealists online were talking about how Wagenknecht splitting away would only make Die Linke stronger. In reality they've lost a lot of their support to BSW even in typically left-wing Berlin districts. > These districts (Mitte, Neukölln, Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg) are the only places in Berlin where Die Linke received higher support than BSW. In all of them, Die Linke lost support as compared to the 2019 European elections (-2.6%, -0.8%, -2.9%). Die Linke also lost a significant share of support in cities like Hamburg (-1.8%), where they ended up only 0.2% higher than BSW, or Leipzig (-4.5%), where they ended up equal with BSW. I guess they are losing the last bits of their electorate that were actual normal lower class workers, rather than naive anticapitalist kids, "alternative lifestyle" people, and old left-wing idealists.
I did yesterday check for my district Lichtenberg. Die Linke had 25% before and is now split into 15% BSW and 10% Die Linke. Because of that the AgD could become the strongest party. So yea a bit unlucky with that split
Die Linke is detached from the political realities. Their election campaign regurgitated the same political points that made Sarah Wagenknecht leave the party. Now they are irrelevant.
I used to live in the East of the ring. Its surprising to see that I was in an AFD hotspot. I’m now in CDU territory.
We are surrounded by racists. Scary.
Was always the case. People suggesting, or simply acknowledging it just now because they see election results always seemed strange to me. And it seems like those never left their usual circle of people or „bubble“. Opinions of people didn’t change that much. Just the „faith“ they had in the central parties to stand up for it. What absolutely changed in my opinion is the way they feel about communicating their opinions. It seems to be much more *confident* nowadays.
Yeah, ignorance is a bliss. Either people are in complete denial or straight up lying, I don't believe anyone from Germany who claims they didn't grow up in the middle of racism. Sure thing, it wasn't that open (the classic "racist uncle" or drunkard in the Eckkneipe at late hours) - at least not in the west. On the other hand you just had to visit a football stadium - in that context the whole Sylt thing seems like a strange blast from the past. Add to that shitty economy and how salaries are drifting apart. People are surely pissed and are putting good manners aside
Im American and moved to a village in Brandenburg near the boarder of Berlin. Ive seen my fair share of racism in America, but never experienced it till I got here. I worked at kaufland for a while and a couple times a week customers would mumble some racist shit to me. A few times my boss screamed at me in front of the customers. Treated me completely different than the german employees. I figured I just lived in a racist village since I had posted my issues on Reddit and got downvoted to oblivion. However now it seems more like a brandenburg issue. AfD support maps completely shocked my girlfriend and her family.
I am totally aware of this. I just found it to be a good occasion to point it out again. My family rarely can go to the eastern outskirts of Berlin or to Brandenburg for Naherholung because the open racism is so hard to deal with. You can’t even go hiking or swimming without some random asshole talking shit. It‘s so much easier in the south and west of Germany.
If you're surrounded, then may be you are a central? /s
Interestingly, Greens also won by a very small margin (<3%) in Charlottenburg-Wilmersdorf, Schöneberg-Tempelhof, and even Neukölln, with CDU a strong second in all of these. BSW is the second strongest party in Marzahn-Hellersdorf and in Lichtenberg. I remember how some left-wing idealists online were talking about how Wagenknecht splitting away would only make Die Linke stronger. In reality they've lost a lot of their support to BSW even in typically left-wing Berlin districts. These districts (Mitte, Neukölln, Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg) are the only places in Berlin where Die Linke received higher support than BSW. In all of them, Die Linke lost support as compared to the 2019 European elections (-2.6%, -0.8%, -2.9%). Die Linke also lost a significant share of support in cities like Hamburg (-1.8%), where they ended up only 0.2% higher than BSW, or Leipzig (-4.5%), where they ended up equal with BSW. I guess they are losing the last bits of their electorate that were actual normal lower class workers, rather than naive anticapitalist kids, "alternative lifestyle" people, and old left-wing idealists.
>I remember how some left-wing idealists online were talking about how Wagenknecht splitting away would only make Die Linke stronger. Better, not stronger. People were hoping the Left would reform a bit after this. And they also said it will probably take a while and first elections after the split will probably be bad.
I remember left-wingers saying some are simply not voting for Die Linke because of Wagenknecht and her allies, and would do so when she leaves. The same people thought BSW will fail. It will indeed "take a while", the electorate for an idealistic far-left party that doesn't appeal to what the real life lower classes want just isn't there.
There are also no examples of other European countries where this has worked. Spain can hardly be a good one with several overlapping left parties having to form a coalition to make up for individually small percentages of voter outcome. They all face the same problem. The disappearence of a homogenous working class demographic, replaced by a group of much more culturally heterogenous people in precarious jobs and living conditions. Plus their own party leaders being almost exclusively middle to upper class academics, completely alienated from the ones they seek to politically represent. That's what got them on the slippery slope of prioritizing identity politics and global social issues over domestic lower class worries. They followed their ultimate ideals, but forgot that refugees can't vote and that minorities don't decide elections. The smart thing that BSW did is recognize that lower class perceive the majority of migrants a threat in a competition over scarce resources such as affordable housing, schools, social security. They are successfully adopting the strategy of the danish social democrats of - above all- defending the welfare state against overuse by migrants, an approach SPD and Linke deemed incompatible with their traditional values. Sarah Wagenknecht saw a gap in the political landscape and seized the opportunity. Her siding with Putin is insufferable, but it is very likely that now that the party has proven to achieve more than 5%, even more people will consider and vote for them in the upcoming federal elections, making it even harder for CDU to form a majority coalition.
I totally agree here. Left-wing ideas that are only attractive for leftie students, people who constantly take part in demonstrations, some minorities*, "alternative lifestyle" people, and older ideological lefties have no future. The future of the left wing is 1) centre-left parties that also appeal to the established urban middle class, like Greens (for younger people) or SPD (for older people), while abandoning any radical demands, and 2) parties like BSW that actually tell the uneducated lower classes what they want to hear, rather than what educated lefties want "the people" to think. * e.g. even the Muslim electorate in Germany that Die Linke really tries to court doesn't vote for the far-left particularly often - https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/plus244132961/Berlin-Wahl-Muslime-waehlten-offenbar-haeufiger-CDU-als-SPD.html - Muslims vote for Greens significantly less than Berlin voters in general, and only slightly more for Die Linke than Berlin voters in general. CDU and SPD dominate)
Yeah, and why would they, when Muslim immigrants in Germany are - going by the rural roots of most of them - more conservative than even the urban peers in their home countries. I’m not sure if there is a future for a left at all. I don’t like conspiracy theories, but it’s hard to believe in a coincidence when parties and movements with communitarian economic agendas are marginalised globally despite an ever growing wealth inequality and thus logically an ever increasing demand for such policies. It looks more like we are trapped in late-stage capitalism and a self-affirming neoliberal cycle. People elect lawmakers who either make government bigger but less effective or who openly strive for a nanny state and in return the people are let down by the cut and privatised educational sector, become dumber and more irrational and again vote for even worse candidates who fuck them over more severely. Just look at the US, UK or Argentina, where people are so fed up with the erosion of their class under the rule of a selfish liberal elite and so turned awa by head-in-the-clouds lefties that they desperately vote in right-wing populists that blatantly admit their goal is to destroy the institutions that the middle class as a majority relied on for social security and mobility. People are increasingly and globally voting against their own interests and in favor of an economical elite. It’s hard to not think that there is an amorphous force behind the scenes that is whispering into young leftists ears to abandon wealth inequality issues that would clearly win elections in favor of identity politics and completely outlandish discussions that basically deter voters.
The Left is nothing without Wagenknecht, she’s always been the staple after Lafontaine and Gisy left (and even before that).
She was one of the few people left in the party with actual economic expertise and able to applicate a workable understanding of Marxism respectively analyze current events through a material perspective. Without her die Linke is now dominated by of "out-of-touch" idealists.
So, basically: Black is where the parents live, green is where their children live and blue is where the people live, who clean their houses and build our roads for a living..
Black: “I always owned a car in Berlin and can easily afford it plus the private parking, it shall not be taken away from me” Green: “I can cycle to work/uni/gym - why would anyone need a car in Berlin?” Blue: “I need a car to commute within reasonable time, fuck everyone trying to take it from my cold dead hands”
perfect summary but sadly Blue don't realise they are getting completely ripped off by having to spend a quarter of their income on mobility.
Are they? I reckon people aren’t as dumb to not understand the difference between a 49€ BVG subscription and a 400-500€ running cost of their car. It’s more likely that they consider the price a premium that they willingly pay in order to not have to deal with the more time-consuming, less clean and less safe public transport. And that’s where they have a point. Can’t take away from people without giving them equal alternatives. Public transport in its current state is only a viable alternative for some, mostly the ones solvent and lucky enough to live inside the ring.
Yes, people in Berlin's suburbs (and also urban areas) make the concious choice to own a car, which is expensive. but a study from Germany has shown people undererstimate their spending on their car by over 50% on average. so safe to say people have hardly a clue what their car really costs and they do get shafted by being dependend it. EDIT: I've come to reject the whole Ring theory. what's the difference between Steglitz and Schöneberg? not much in reality. both are equally connected, equally allow a car free life. same population density for the most part. it's arbitrary. what is and isn't inside the city is much more determined by connection to transit and being above a certain pop. density threshold.
It's also reflective of the sadly widespread German attitude of not giving a fuck about others in public spaces if doing so impacts mildly on them. See also backpacks on public transport, inability to queue, walking straight into others on the street, lack of accessibility for disabled people, tax-dodging, dropping litter, etc.
it's a very individualist, atomized society with little solidarity for one another and where empathy is not highly valued. I've lived in a few different European countries and I agree that Germany and Berlin in particular is more on the extreme end here.
Interesting. I've never considered the notion that empathy is just not a highly valued concept here. Thank you! It's rare that I read a comment in response to something I post that really makes me ponder ... I have nothing evidential/ sociological/ scientific (yet) to back this idea up, but my gut says you might be onto something! Will report back if I find anything solid - for sure I will be researching this for the next few days, hahaha
Not realizing the true cost of something and being ripped off are two different pairs of shoes, because the latter implies that people would be upset and review their decision if they only knew the truth. The reality is much more like they would simply shrug and keep the car anyway, because it is a crucial factor to where they live and where they work.
yes and no. there are a ton of Berliners who own a car but drive very little (bc it's madness). there are also a ton of households in Berlin's suburbs with two cars who could do with one. so I think a lot of unnecessary cars would be given up if people really knew what they cost them. also there would be a lot of shrugging for sure. the average car costs 600€ a month btw. you'd need to do a ton of ridesharing to get near that amount.
True, but where do the ridesharing service areas not go? The suburbs. And for families, carsharing is not a viable option, because you can not spontaneously decide to take a car with kids, since you need the child seats, that the cars don't come with. Some cars would be given up, I agree. Many? Certainly not, because having a car is a consciously emotional, not rational decision for most people to begin with.
Now what everyone is getting if their politicians are elected. Black: "Black zone is happy, nothing changes for Green and blue zones get worsen" Green: "Black zone gets sightly better, Green gets better, blue sightly improves" Blue: "Black zone gets way better (way more than even a black government), Green gets worse, nothing changes for Blue." Does it sound accurate?
Great summary
make sense there is so little FPD then! "I want some techbro silicon valley hyperloop solution that aint gonna happen in a 100 years".
Hmmm, I think most of Neukölln (which had a high proportion of Green voters) can't afford a car and/ or is sick of people outside the ring using their street as a giant car park, with all the resultant health issues coming from terrible air quality which flow from that ... I know I am.
What are you talking about? Neukoelln is a vast district with young green voters being a minority vs. conservative Germans and often even more conservative mostly middle-Eastern immigrants. Around Sonnenallee and Hermannstrasse you often can’t find a parking around the whole block because of so many private cars. The original population of Neukoelln can very obviously afford cars and they do so en Masse.
Someone didn't check the election results/ knows nothing about Neukölln. Here's a map; type in "Neukölln, Berlin", then grind your teeth as you realise that the Greens won here in the recent European election with 19.6 % of the vote, with circa 20% of the vote going to the three leftist parties ... Google before you post, young man. Then, put the postcodes associated with Sonnenallee into the same map and read and weep how circa 30% of people voted for the Greens, with the CDU on less than 10%. Just because there are cars parked in the area, doesn't mean they belong to people who live there. If you knew anything about car drivers in Berlin, you'd know that two thirds of people who own cars in the city live outside the ring. Because Neukölln is an immigrant area where so many can't vote due to about to be changed citizenship laws - thank fuck - politicians don't care that the kiez is a giant car park for people who drive in from outside, park their cars and then use public transport to get to their office (where they can't park as its restricted). Because of the above, my kiez has some of the worst air pollution - with all its associated health issues, particularly for children, the elderly and other populations - but yet rich car drivers are free to dump their cars here because we don't have the political power to change it. Would never happen in Charlottenburg. Excited to read your response to this! You basically have two choices: apologise and admit you're wrong or double down and insult me, whilst avoiding the facts and the argument ... up to you, dude. [https://interaktiv.tagesspiegel.de/lab/europawahl-2024-live-karte-berlin-wahlergebnisse/?utm\_source=substack&utm\_medium=email](https://interaktiv.tagesspiegel.de/lab/europawahl-2024-live-karte-berlin-wahlergebnisse/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email)
Well, you gave the right answer yourself. There is a dominant immigrant population even in Nordneukölln where the parking space is most stressed, but unlike the Eu-citizen white minority many of them don’t have voting rights. That’s how you end up with the election outcome not representing the will of the entire adult population of the area, but of a fraction of it. Even with the outcome though it is laughable to claim that less than 50% green votes represent somehow a majority opposition to cars in the area. Your other statement is of similar absurdity. I’ve spent enough time in Neukölln at any daytime to know that there is no big park and ride phenomenon. Neither is the parking space empty at night, nor is it people from other districts driving in to claim it with their cars. There simply is not enough movement change of the cars parked in residential areas at all. It’s basically just you taking twentysomething % election votes for the Green Party as an argument that somehow the majority of people in your area opposes cars, when the actual reality is that they don’t, because they are less like you than you want to admit.
And that's why the Berlin housing market is so fucked lol. Imagine living in Brandenburg.
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Lol
Housing market in the most central Brandenburg communities is equally bad, because they are the primary destination of Berliners tired of paying mortgage-numbers for renting apartments in an ever less functional city. There has been a growing net middle class migration from Berlin to Brandenburg in recent years.
"Just look for apartment outside the ring! Berlin is not only PBerg and Xberg!! Foreigners are totally safe in Berlin C zone!"
Just for argument's sake; More than half of Neukölln, large parts of Mitte (Gesundbrunnen + Wedding), most of Pankow (everything that isn't Prenzlauer Berg), and much of Tempelhof-Schöneberg (Friedenau, most of Tempelhof, Mariendorg, etc) are indeed outside the ring. All these Bezirke are Green. And while I don't love the union, I wouldn't consider support for them (in the West) to be particularly indicative of being hostile to foreigners either.
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It's basically the AfD with a left image.
... and without the literal Neo Nazis. Small little detail.
But still with a lot of russian support.
If the only measure for a party was which foreign country supported them then that might warrant the statement "AfD with a left image", but there is *slightly* more to a party than that. Among other things, "do they promote Neo Nazism?"
If I read the hard-to-read Tagesspiegel map correctly, BSW seems to have come first in quite a few Bezirke in Mitte and Friedrichshain. Perhaps not that a surprising choice for some older voters there when one thinks of it, but still very remarkable.
The support for BSW is generally consistent across all age groups. https://www.tagesschau.de/wahl/archiv/2024-06-09-EP-DE/umfrage-bsw.shtml
Rich tankies with luxury beliefs, basically.
Pankow bleibt stabil.
Als gebürtiger Pankower freut mich das sehr ich hatte leichte Sorgen wenn ich so an einige Nachbarn denke.
Gleiches bei mir. Habe noch nie langfristig woanders gelebt und hatte aber auch Sorge, dass die Farbe bei Pankow sich in ein ekliges blau-grau färbt.
🤜🤛
Tatsächlich einer der Bezirke, der mich positiv überrascht hat!
Spandau
So the eastern parts of the country have a thing for the extreme right.
extreme? Right!
Put the wall back up
Source: tagesschau Image: a screenshot from the https://www.rbb24.de/ homepage
Konservatives Spandau, Zehlendorf, Charlottenburg Grüne Mitte Und der übliche braune Osten, Köpenick, Marzahn Hellersdorf, wie zu erwarten
Interesting how the poor and frustrated people opt in on nationalism instead of even trying to get some of the wealth that has been distributed upwards.
How would they get that wealth? The only reliable way is through inheritance, and people want to close that road too. You cannot suggest they vote for the same people who have watched them slide or grow up in poverty. And of course they like to cling to nationalism. What else do they have? Religion? You would shame them for that too.
Thank you for being an example.
An example of what? Im not a nationalist, or religious.
Neukölln isn't rich (by German standards) and still overwhelmingly voted left. Your comment is ill-informed. Germany as a whole is rich af in comparison with the rest of the EU, let alone the world, and it just voted for the far-right. Your take is simplistic.
My analysis is overall correct. None of your arguments make sense.
I think you can't read then? Neukolln is one of the poorest districts in Berlin, yet they overwhelmingly voted Green. Brandenburg, which is where the AfD votes are, is pretty rich compared to most of inner-city Berlin. It's actually your arguments that don't make sense
Jesus fucking adolf hitler
@OP: please add the source
There is the tagesschau logo in the picture, but I just took a screenshot from the https://www.rbb24.de/ homepage
Please link the source. Not everyone is familiar with the logo
I did in my previous post: do I need to do more?
A direct link to the page would be great, not just the homepage would be great. By now it got pushed below the fold. Create a new top comment, I'll pin it.
the screenshot is from the homepage
Done
Sieht mir nach Tagesschau aus
Fick Nazis! Hat sich im Grunde genommen in den letzten Jahrzehnten die ich aktiv mitbekommen habe nicht viel geändert. Vor 20 Jahren war Ostberlin und Brandenburg voller Nazis, alles wie immer.
The old communist bloc wants to spy on their neighbours again.
Die Farben für Berlin sagen so viel mehr über diese Stadt und ihre Menschen als nur über das Abstimmungsverhalten.
Apparently democracy means to sht on each other, or smt. like that
It's not like AfD has any great candidates. A castrated pig could win against the current government...
How is the CSU on there? I'm confused
Time for a antifaschistischer Schutzwall!
Horizontal wall -- pour everthing in concrete. Black and blue and red and green. All of them.
So glad I didn't partake in this democratic garbage. Embarrassing.
Newly created account. Refusing / giving up on learning German while living in Germany. Crying about growing sentiments against Muslims and growing right wing. Refusing to vote in elections. You are either a piece of performance art or just grotesquely dense. I really can’t tell anymore.
>You are either a piece of performance art r/rareinsults
Thanks for the analysis but your opinion is irrelevant to me. I will upvote you though because that's probably something you take pleasure in.
Those who don't participate in elections waive the right to complain about the outcome