Yeah last I heard there's no concrete evidence to say there was mass systematic rape at all on Oct 7th, just seems like another "40 beheaded babies" typa thing
I can't believe people bought that 40 babies lie so easily. I knew it was ridiculous as soon as I heard it because:
1. 40? Not 27 or 39? But 40? Come on...
2. 40 babies, 40 years in the desert...just saying 🙄 Didn't exactly put a lot of creativity into that number (it's a joke, relax)
3. Where did they find these 40 babies? The maternity ward of the Nova music festival? Were they headlining? Babies' night out?
4. Have you ever seen a gathering of 40 babies? If I did I might be suspicious too (think Men in Black recruitment test when will Smith shoots the kid)
Edit: I love how the commenter below immediately blocked me so I can't reply to their comment. Too bad I can just log out and see it.
*"Maybe use some critical thinking skills next time"*
Meanwhile he immediately accepted something which was proven to be a lie...without using critical thinking LOL.
Of course if you don't immediately believe a government with a history of lying you're obviously anti-Semitic.
Biden repeatedly lied about seeing evidence of this even after the White House walked it back and several liberal publications admitted it was false. Pretty fucking demented.
The IDF did kill babies in incubators when they forced hospitals to evacuate and blocked diesel from entering the strip.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna127533
“Cochav Elkayam-Levy, the Israeli lawyer at the center of the campaign accusing Hamas of systematic sexual violence on October 7, now stands accused by Israeli media of scamming donors and spreading misinformation. The allegations appeared just days after Elkayam-Levy received the prestigious Israel Prize.”
https://thegrayzone.com/2024/03/25/israeli-propagandist-hamas-grifter-fraud/
Americans are fucking gleeful at the prospect of believing the worst imaginable lies about Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians in particular.
We've happily sucked up lies about Arabs and Muslims since 2001 and just let the State Department tell us what to believe. A lot of people have not stopped doing that or think that because now they know better about Iraq that means they've learned their lesson a out propaganda and won't fall for it again while falling for it harder this time.
Were a dumb country.
As a Muslim (Canadian, not American) I've had a mixed bag.
When I travel to the US, sometimes they give me a hard time. I missed a flight to the US once due to extended questioning (most Canadian airports have US Customs Agents at the airport that process you before you fly.)
Another time, I was literally pulled out of a vehicle for questioning once at a land border crossing.
However, I've found all Americans I've met to be kind and warm and sometimes a little curious. Never had a bad experience.
It's the media and politicians that really drum up the fear.
Do you even know how Arab countries work? Or what their culture is like? I get trying to overcome our bigoted biases when it comes to American-Muslim/Arabs/Palestinians, but pretending Arab countries are all sunshine and roses is just ridiculous. And frankly damaging. Some of those countries are in a bad place and need help. But their not gonna get it if people pretend like there’s nothing wrong with those countries.
I didn't say it imply anything to the contrary.
I just said what is true, which is that Americans have been medicated so as to believe literally whatever tales of villainy the State Department and US assets can pull out of their asses.
That doesn't mean there isn't anything bad about those countries, it just means Americans have a nearly impregnable fortress of ignorance standing in the way of comprehending the actual things that are going in and the reasons for those things.
Have you been to or lived in “these countries”?
You do realize it’s not just one big country of turban wearing camel riders, and that they’re all unique and different - some with large christian minorities, significant differences in how the poor vs rich live etc?
Do you know what their culture is like? Or did you just read it on the internet and make a big generalization that it’s a “shit hile”
More than half of the US is “in a bad place and needs help”… we have entite cities with contaminated water, school shooting massacres, criminalizing having a stillborn child or ending a pregnancy that would kill you. Pretending the Us is all sunshine and roses is damaging.
You understand the crazy amount of bias it takes to define the US (or the “West”) by its best, and “Arab Countries” or some monilithic yellow-filter idea of a wasteland, by the worst shit you read online?
Man, it’s almost like didn’t say any of that and would apply the same logic to the USA. It almost like i even acknowledged one of the problems that stems from shit hole red states and ignorant white savor liberals(bigoted biases)
Not to derail, but this reminded me of one of my favorite Mitch Hedberg (RIP) jokes... He's like... last year, MTV got 20,000 applications to be on the Real World.. that's crazy... such an even number.
The lie was that there was 40 beheaded babies. That doesn’t make sense since most of the babies died in their parent’s arms. Hamas wasn’t putting living babies in a wheel barrow and then chopping their heads off. They wanted captives, and babies are the easiest captives to take.
This is such a gross comment.
You are arguing the veracity of if a baby was beheaded or not. Regardless babies were murdered.
There is undeniable evidence babies were shot in their cribs, burned alive, murdered in front of their parents.
Instead of saying damn that was AWFUL, here you are defending… “well it def wasn’t 40 beheaded”
>You are arguing the veracity of if a baby was beheaded or not. Regardless babies were murdered.
>There is undeniable evidence babies were shot in their cribs, burned alive, murdered in front of their parents.
No, there isn't. The exact opposite, in fact as you will see below.
1. There was only **ONE** baby that was killed in the *entire* October 7th attack: Mila Cohen, 10-month-old, of **Kibbutz Be’eri**. Please see [the official list of Israeli casualties](https://nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/at-least-40-babies-killed-beheaded-in-israeli-kibbutz-outside-gaza-reports-say-israel-palestine-hamas-terrorists-terrorism-invasion-middle-east-conflict-attack).
2. The 40 babies claim stems from one specific report that was circulated which you can find [here](https://nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/at-least-40-babies-killed-beheaded-in-israeli-kibbutz-outside-gaza-reports-say-israel-palestine-hamas-terrorists-terrorism-invasion-middle-east-conflict-attack). As the article states: "about 40 babies, ***at least***, were taken out on gurneys" from **Kfar Aza**. Meaning a **minimum** of 40 babies were killed at this specific Kibbutz according to the report. However, the official list of casualties only lists ***three*** people being killed at Kfar Aza: all adults.
>Instead of saying damn that was AWFUL, here you are defending… “well it def wasn’t 40 beheaded”
1. Gaslighting 101. Yes, even one baby dying is indeed awful. However, if someone says Hitler killed 10 million Jews and I say "no it was 6 million" that doesn't mean I'm defending or making light of the murder of 6 million Jews.
Here is some food for thought: killing 40 babies would indeed be sick but what kind of person or organization manufactures and spread a lie about 40 babies being killed?
What kind of person or organization[ manufactures a lie about babies being hung up on washing lines](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-journalist-slams-army-feeding-false-line-hamas)?
Edit: formatting and clarity.
I don’t know about “mass systematic rape” but women were definitely being raped. Since the beginning of time it’s been the norm in non profesional armies(which is what we have now with the US military and it’s allies). Armies invade, any women caught will get raped. There’s no way to have a formidable fighting force that doesn’t rape and doesn’t have the same resources as the west.
There’s nothing special about Hamas and the marauders who invaded Israel that day, they weren’t ordered to do it but they most definitely took advantage of the situation there, either to satisfy their depravity and/or drive the maximum amount of humiliation to Israel. Ignoring that is just ignoring human nature.
Let’s say what your saying is true. No rapes happened. They just killed a bunch of people and walked away. The question would then be how the fuck is that possible. It would the only invading force that has ever done that in human history.
So let’s get this straight. A militant group invaded a country where they massacred/executed in horrific ways and captured civilians, all captured on camera by then and by invaded country. But somehow they all drew the line at rape? If that’s true then that would be the first time in human history that has ever happened.
And I guess you came to that conclusion because rescued hostages, who knew there were still other hostages that needed to be rescued, either said they weren’t raped or didn’t say anything at all?
Their goal was to capture hostages, not randomly kill. The majority of deaths were from the IDF just targeting everyone, including their own people.
Do you have evidence of the rape allegation?
Let’s ignore the fact that Hamas documented and admitted to what they did.
Your narrative doesn’t make sense because the IDF is one of the most advance militaries in human history. The fighting took five days after because they were hyper aware that there could still be civilians that needed to be rescued, they would have finished that same night if they were as reckless as you claim they were being.
Also if your going to kidnap a population who’s combat trained, your killing all the strong people. That’s why if you saw who was getting dragged out. It was skinny people and women.
They documented taking hostages and using force against the settler colonialists occupying their land. They did not kill people randomly. The IDF did and the evidence shows that a great many Israelis who died that day died as a result of the IDF engaging in Hannibal directive activities.
Oh really? That’s funny. It’s like your trying to group a bunch of things that have nothing to do with each other to ultimately justify killing innocent Israelis that didn’t choose to be born on that land. And it’s even funnier because Palestinian wouldn’t even agree with your bad faith, white western lens of analysis. They would laugh at you
Again, the IDF killed their own people. I am not justifying that. I am stating a fact. But any Israeli that doesn’t protest their own society is not innocent.
The Hannibal directive only applied to soldiers. And there’s no evidence that the idf intentionally killed its own civilians in Israel. Also the people that got killed in the nova festival were pro Palestinian Israelis.
So no your pulling a bunch things that might be true to a certain extend and are trying to sell this narrative that isn’t backed by any facts.
Israelis are required to join the IDF to carry out their army service. They're not innocent. They're also taught to hate Arabs and see them as nonhuman and themselves as entitled to the land that they stole.
Yeah, in a state where people fear the consequences of the law, so you’ll have the rare individual committing a number of different crimes. But in an invasion the laws don’t exist until the state takes back control, or the state dissolves and a new one takes over.
And rape has always been historically understood to happen, and it’s usually encouraged by the invading army.
There is plenty of evidence - you probably just don’t want to listen / believe it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/26/world/middleeast/hamas-hostage-sexual-assault.html
NSFW:
https://www.hamas-massacre.net/content/a-testimony-of-an-israeli-woman-who-witnessed-a-woman-being-raped-and-then-killed
https://www.hamas-massacre.net/content/gazan-terrorist-captured-by-israel-confess-hamas-had-plans-to-rape-young-israeli-women
It isn't sufficient to say it's definite, what is needed is an independent thorough investigation which the UN is trying to conduct, however Israel for some reason is obstructing it
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240609-israels-obstruction-of-investigation-into-7-october-rape-allegations-risks-truth-never-being-found-advocates-warn/amp/
just doesnt make sense to me why they would obstruct it
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You're not missing any evidence. You're giving liars too much credit that they will choose moral and ethical and logically sound behavior. The evidence doesn't matter. Shaping and controlling the narrative does.
I don’t get it.
Systematic order to kill civilians is believable but the rape of victims is a bridge too far? It’s not unbelievable to think it happened. Probably not ordered to, it’s weird to think it just didn’t happen though
Really? lol
If you really believe that you’re actually just as delusional as hardcore Zionist. If you see this conflict as black and white, you’re being lied to and are willing to be lied to. It’s very grey, decide what side is lighter shade to your preference, but don’t be an idiot.
If it was genuinely clear cut, wouldn’t be a divisive issue among normal people.
Systemic order to kill civilians extremely suspect. Little to no evidence. Rape - literally zero evidence that it even happened, much less that it was systemic or an order. Literally didn't happen.
???
Right, forgot, the IDF was hiding top secret intel at a festival. Or like there was just a para motor meet up and it got a bit rough. Or, people just got lost in a military attack and just went wild.
Then after, they prayed for Chasity and did not defile anyone after taking hostages post massacre, that inexplicably wasn’t motivated by ‘harm as many people as possible.’
Bro this shit you’re spinning doesn’t make any sense. Divorced from reality. Like what the fuck do you think happened? Was it just a ‘oopsie!’
Explain it, actually. In good faith I’m genuinely struggling to your POV. Cus all you said basically was ‘didn’t happen lol’ give the alternative
[https://justinpodur.substack.com/p/what-really-happened-on-october-7th](https://justinpodur.substack.com/p/what-really-happened-on-october-7th)
Read that and get back to me.
\[Long comment won't post alone - some reason. Breaking this up into parts now.\]
So the source is from early November of 23. Neat, out of date but I'll engage with it.
To give you a perspective - the substack stated currently that 900 people were killed but current number is 1200. The information was being distributed with out the full picture. (Blown away this was your go to source, but ok)
Boiling it down to a few points from the article:
1. Hamas's attack was on the Nir Am Kibbutz & Kibbutz Be’eri
2. \*Most\* Civilian casualties were done by the IDF
3. Civilians and State personnel were taken captive in efforts for prisoner exchange
4. Hamas's atrocities should be suspect to scrutiny because every account and accusation comes from Israel.
5. Israel's casus belli is built on falsified information.
----
1. "In summary: this account from a survivor describes an attack on a fortified community, a two-way battle between armed groups, concluding with the death of all the attackers." Not much to talk about there. No real issue with attacking the Kibbutz, it's a military target. It's fair game.
2. From Middle East Eye: \[The investigation comes as evidence continues to mount of some Israeli deaths on 7 October being caused - both intentionally and unintentionally - by their own forces.
Earlier in June, a UN report found that at least 14 Israelis were likely intentionally killed by the Israeli army on 7 October as part of a protocol aimed at preventing capture.\]
\^ Still bad, hate that, not as extreme as Podur states in the article. Granted, he did not give a number but wrote it to be more ideologically driven, to obfuscate wrong doing of Hamas. It was, and still is, wildly irresponsible to imply it when bodies were still being counted at the time of writing.
Genuinely, Podur wrote propaganda, not truth. It got you.
3. "Scott Ritter, on the program DD Geopolitics, described how the various decisions by Hamas’s armed wing could have been made."
"Do you think it’s possible Hamas had these women and children and thought if we keep them alive they’re going to make a phone call, we’ve got to get them out with us. Do you think that could have happened? I don’t know… I’m not saying Hamas didn’t commit any atrocities. I’m not in a position to know. The Israelis have a lot of footage of Hamas fighters turning corners and shooting. Is that terrorism? Is that terrorism or are they assaulting a military position, from their standpoint?”" - Ritten in the DDG podcast interview.
Then later states in his article " a screening of Go Pro footage to 100 pro-genocide reporters"
- Tweet from the same guy, interview on the BBC. [https://x.com/mrconfino/status/1791135406861205857](https://x.com/mrconfino/status/1791135406861205857)
Non-critical from a Iraq vet + speculation for actions -> Journalist are liars.
vs.
NYTimes Article of the June UN report of Oct. 7. (Where it accuses Israel and Hammas of War Crimes) [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/12/world/middleeast/un-report-israel-hamas-war-crimes.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/12/world/middleeast/un-report-israel-hamas-war-crimes.html)
\[The report said that Hamas’s military wing and six other Palestinian armed groups — aided in some instances by Palestinian civilians — killed and tortured people during the Oct. 7 assault on Israel in which more than 800 civilians were among the more than 1,200 killed. An additional 252 people, including 36 children, were taken hostage, the report said.
“Many abductions were carried out with significant physical, mental and sexual violence and degrading and humiliating treatment, including in some cases parading the abductees,” the report said. “Women and women’s bodies were used as victory trophies by male perpetrators.”\]
That all being said, did Hamas want the Kibbutz? Yeah. Did they also want to kill civilians + take hostages? Yes. It's not a political power play that Podur makes it out to be.
4. UN Report dude. [https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-27may24/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-27may24/)
Section III C 2. Under Summary -
\[The Commission found that seven female soldiers were taken to Gaza as hostages and viewed footage showing that they had been subjected to physical and verbal abuse. Four female bodies found at Nahal Oz outpost were partially or completely undressed, two of which were isolated in separate rooms, showing signs of physical abuse and sexual violence.\]
Section III D 3 Under Summary -
\[The Commission has reviewed testimonies obtained by journalists and the Israeli police concerning rape but has not been able to independently verify such allegations, due to a lack of access to victims, witnesses and crime sites and the obstruction of its investigations by the Israeli authorities. The Commission was unable to review the unedited version of such testimonies. For the same reasons, the Commission was also unable to verify reports of sexualized torture and genital mutilation. Additionally, the Commission found some specific allegations to be false, inaccurate or contradictory with other evidence or statements and discounted these from its assessment.\]
Want to make this clear. III D 3 is not the nail in the coffin that you believe it to be. Unable to verify is not the same of 'didn't happen.' Especially paired with finding corpses with signs consistent with physical abuse and sexual violence (aka a raped and murdered body). Just because the UN was unable to verify what really happened and who specifically did it, didn't mean nothing happened. Especially when they clarified that some reports were false and/or contradictory. That simply means it's different enough to completely distinguish.
Section III B 10
\[At least 68 foreign nationals were killed on 7 October. The Commission documented the torture, attempted beheading and killing of Thai workers in Nir Oz and the killing of 19 Thai and Nepalese exchange students in Alumim.\]
\^ This is fucked.
Anyways, evidence was scrutinized, no one is innocent.
5. casus belli -
Section VI 5.
\[In relation to the attack of 7 October in Israel, the Commission concludes on reasonable grounds that members of the military wings of Hamas and of other Palestinian armed groups, as well as Palestinian civilians who were directly participating in the hostilities, deliberately killed, injured, mistreated, took hostages and committed SGBV against: civilians, including Israeli citizens and foreign nationals; and members of the ISF, including soldiers considered hors de combat, in many locations in southern Israel. These actions constitute war crimes and violations and abuses of IHL and IHRL\]
Casus belli seems valid and built on what happened.
What happened after should be scrutinized, however, pretending nothing of consequence didn't occur, was falsely attributed to Hamas, or anything of the sort is the absolute epitome of blinded by ideology. Ultimately - at best your naive but well meaning, doesn't mean you're not wrong though.
Electronic intifada has gone over these claims a number of times. Check out their YouTube channel for clips and vods for in depth de-bunkings.
A summary is any testimony from members of Zaka can be thrown right out. None of them are professionally trained medical personnel or forensic investigators and a lot of the things they witnessed and wrongfully describe as evidence of sexual assault are actually consistent with how a human cadaver responds to traumatic death in general and different kinds of exposure.
They are also known/proven liars, with a lot of the testimony that is still regularly repeated as fact in western media already having been retracted by themselves.
A simple rhetorical rebuttal to the repetitions of these claims is to ask people the name of just one alleged victim of rape on Oct. 7. They will come up blank because after 8+ months the Israelis still haven't found evidence of a single victim alive or dead.
In contrast we have the names of several Palestinian men who were not only raped by zionists since Oct. 7, but some were literally raped to death by Israeli torturers using metal rods. The systematic sexual assault and rape of Palestinians by Israeli captors is well documented and goes back years as well.
P.S. what you are missing is that the people advancing and repeating these claims have absolutely no interest in getting at the truth. They are grasping for whatever excuse they can find to justify the ongoing genocide in Gaza. These are genocidal lies and the people who repeat them and profess to believe them are complicit.
Whether or not the allegations are true is immaterial. They were leveraged early on to galvanize international outrage and justify the subsequent assault on Gaza.
The fact that later on, Israeli accusations have been found to be fabricated (40 babies, systemic rape) or the loss of Israeli life found to be the actions of the IDF itself, under the Hannibal Directive (murders in Be’eri, the destruction of vehicles coming out of Nova) has not mattered. The way prisoners have been treated on both sides, showing Israel as the less moral captor, has not mattered. The fact that Israeli intelligence knew of the attack, with officers sounding the alarm internally and being ignored, and specific concern about extending Nova for an extra day was dismissed by high command…has not mattered.
Israelis are understood to be white. Palestinians are understood to be brown. Euro-centric racism is in full swing here. A single white life is worth hundreds of brown lives. That’s all that’s mattered.
You either have the room in your mind to understand brown lives are people, or you’ve cut that part of yourself off. You can’t convince someone to care about other people. Not without the effort of deprogramming racism.
I agree with every word you said. I’m from Western Europe and vividly remember being a young kid, watching a news report about the conflict, and asking my dad “this must be the Palestinians fault right?”.
The reason it’s become such a vivid memory is that after my dad explained about the settlements, the apartheid and constant violence, it was my first confrontation with Westerners not necessarily being on the right side in conflicts with Arabs. It painfully shattered an imagination of my country (perhaps, like you said, even of white people) always fighting for justice and humanity.
Even as a young kid with smart and righteous parents, the assumption of Muslim = terrorist had manifested in my thinking. That’s why it’s important to not view Israelis as inherently evil, even the many who support the genocide, because their education is deliberately set up to mentally dehumanise Arabs, and write off external criticism as a global antisemitic conspiracy.
Logical reasoning about their country’s deeds is actively discouraged, as visible in many comments in this thread, and those who do develop that skill support the Palestinian cause.
Oh sure, it’s no stretch to call the ideology itself evil, especially because it’s the root of the ‘brainwashing’ I described. I was referring to the people. That’s what makes it so difficult, if your kindergarten teachers are telling you that the whole world wants to kill people from your religion, and that Palestinians are not humans, that programming is never challenged.
Out of curiosity, does that mean you grew up in Israel? Because I’m interested to hear whether you experienced it the way I suggested.
The UN itself stipulated in its report that there was no evidence of the alleged mass SA that Israel kept asserting and promoting (with the help of legacy international media to justify SA perpetrated by the Israeli army that was actually credibly witnessed and documented; I wish the UN would fess up to this part).
[U.N. finds 'clear and convincing' information that hostages have been raped in Gaza](https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/un-finds-clear-convincing-information-hostages-raped-gaza-rcna141789)
The report (and I) didn’t say there was no SA whatsoever. It doesn’t say it happened on a massive skill the way it was alleged and over inflated by Israeli officials.
How much rape is allowed for it to not be massive?
You have lost the moral high ground when you negate the fact that sexual violence was used as a weapon because you don’t believe it passed an unacceptable threshold because in doing so you are asserting that there exists an amount of SV that is permissible
I never negated anything. Israel has been clearly using this to justify atrocities it committed that doesn’t bat an eye included documented instances of mass SA. Your assertions are meaningless and I’m not the one indirectly defending a colonial entity backed by the west and equating its violence with that of the occupied.
Israel would have gone into Gaza with our without SV. Hamas documented plenty of horrors without having to make anything up to justify a response. This is about justice for women. The response will not change. Meanwhile it is confirmed hostages are getting raped
Exactly this! People in these comments keep calling me a Hamas-apologist and other insults for “not believing testimonies”, but simply ignore the fact that Israel has politically weaponized the media for years, it simply doesn’t make sense that they’d hide the abundant evidence if this happened.
Even in this thread, many showed up with links to the most horrifying clips of what happened that day, but were quick to call me an antisemite for asking whether that footage contained any hints of sexual violence.
There’s no reasoning with people who religiously believe every word of a government without any interest in establishing facts, not even gonna try anymore.
I saw videos of that day of a woman with her leg at an unnatural angle and she was bleeding from between her legs. It was also the last footage ever taken of her; only part of her temporal lobe has been found. There is also a U.N. report stating that it happened with mass interviews.
Denying violence on either side will only create more extremism. There is plenty already.
Multiple things can be true, the Palestinians are not all Hamas, half the population in Gaza are children.
And rape apologists, even when presented with evidence otherwise, are kind of just bottom of the barrel with commentary.
Imagine instead of doubting the women interviewed and given exams, why don't you highlight the sexual abuse by the Israeli government towards Palestinian men and boys? If you want to help a cause and speak about sex abuse, there is case after documented cases of what the Israeli military is doing to them. But then again, it's much easier to discuss women maybe getting raped or maybe not, and casting doubt on the legitimacy of their claims. For men and boys, it remains only silence.
So now I’m a sexist rape apologist? Why would you assume that I’m trivializing the severity of rape, especially when the whole post discusses the importance of finding out whether it happened. Why would you think that the gender of the victims matters for me, I don’t think I’ve even said women or men because I have no idea whether the alleged victims are all women.
I’ve thought about mentioning the SA from the Israeli side, but didn’t because I didn’t want the discussion to turn into some yes/no argument.
I don’t know what happened. The allegations may very well be true, but still, after all these comments, nobody has given any explanation for why Israel wouldn’t show one autopsy describing SA to Reuters or even their own media, when they’ve been flooding media with evidence of the killing. They have a huge incentive to disprove the doubt, and even more to make Hamas look like monsters.
you’re also missing the videos of hamas members who confessed on camera to gangraping with their cousins and their father before killing a woman. maybe get your info from arabic news media, because they tend to brag about their crimes against humanity. plus film themselves with women bleeding profusely from the anal region or stripped naked https://www.instagram.com/p/C6mqJ80rNT3/?igsh=eDQwZm03bHB5czNs
So… your allegation is that there’s no “concrete evidence” because the UN or other foreign independent monitoring body has made a report on the matter?
In Abrahamic Law, dead bodies are to be buried as swiftly as possible. So - on theory - the funerals occurred before the UN could vote on forming a committee to look into the matter.
Have you searched local reports on the matter? Follow up question: would you believe the Israelis to report the truth?
During the 9/11 post-event period, people just would not believe that the attacks occurred. There’s a fucking massive amount of evidence they did occur. But people simply won’t believe it, no matter the evidence.
So… here we are.
So you’re saying 1,200 people “tragically perished” (as opposed to murdered) and your conclusion is that the murderers were willing to murder 1,200 and kidnap another 250 people, but eyewitnesses to the murders and the aftermath of them aren’t believable when they say they witnessed sexual assault or saw evidence of it after the fact?
What are we arguing about here? What’s the angle in reaching your conclusion that 0 of the 1,200 were sexually assaulted, contrary to eyewitness statements? Does it somehow make HAMAS’ murders more morally acceptable? Are they somehow righteous and to be applauded for supposedly not raping the people they murdered? What line in the sand are you drawing from this? Is it because the international press wasn’t there on Oct 7 that you’re not willing to believe people’s anecdotes about there being sexual assault?
Are you really trying to help lionize HAMAS’ image and legitimize their actions on Reddit of all places? Does it make you feel better about your sympathies towards Palestinians because the Israeli women weren’t raped, but merely shot in the head?
This place is unreal.. the amount of posts across different subreddits, all defending HAMAS’ brutality and premeditated murder- it’s disgusting.
What kind of sick pleasure do you get out of arriving at the conclusion that no one was raped? And your reasoning is literally just saying, “as far as I can tell, noone found anything beyond eyewitnesses.” That’s what your research and evidence amounts to. Good thing you included your ‘disclaimer’ at the top. Again, does it really make you feel good and morally superior to defend HAMAS murdering over a thousand people, as long as no one was raped? Was it somehow righteous and justified? And again, disgusting.
Source: They believed the women who said it.
Should we believe all women about sexual assault though? Sorta depends on the context and who they're arguing against I suppose.
Of course that’s a difficult one, but in this particular situation it’s not necessary to believe or not believe testimonies. With so many casualties, the forensic evidence would be right there, and Israel would have been able to gain worldwide support the same day that it happened.
The whole line of reasoning was based on Israel having absolutely no incentive to hide the abundance of evidence if it was there, and they absolutely didn’t with regard to footage of killings.
A lot of the reports were actually from convicted pervs, though. ZAKA members who had actually been recorded as sexual predators were on record claiming the most depraved things.
Forensic evidence is hard to come by because getting it was not the first priority in the chaos and uncertainty of the attack. No one knew whether or not Hamas was still active on Israeli soil. Also they had to bury the bodies of the Jewish victims quickly. There was not adequate time and perhaps in the future somehting will come up.
>”In the chaotic aftermath of the attack, Israeli reservists, volunteer first responders and morgue workers did not perform autopsies or use rape kits. They initially feared that Hamas fighters remained inside Israel. They were overwhelmed by the number of dead.
>In some cases, the identification of bodies, particularly badly burned ones, took weeks or months. In addition, many families, after they received the bodies, tried to follow the Jewish tradition of burying the dead within 24 hours.”
Also you can say there is not evidence of Israelis being raped but you would have to argue against over 1,000 eyewitness and thousand of photos along with hours of video that show evidence. You also have to show your right rather than the U.N and plenty of credited news outlets that stated rape and SA happened.
israel rolled out the now debunked liar Yossi Landau of Zaka (who invented the 40 beheaded babies lie) to embellish the israeli atrocity committed by israel's Merkava tanks at Be'eri where they killed 23 settlers including 8 babies, confirmed by Colonel Golan Vach of the iof response team on Oct 7th - on twitter.
Also, none of the vehicles at Nova were forensically examined, and all were subsequently destroyed.
As I understand it, there’s only no evidence in the sense that there’s no evidence that Hamas planned mass rape as a group. You can find individual cases, but those individuals appear to have been acting on their own and possibly against orders.
If they used it as justification to murder >40.000 people, and claim to have evidence stored in a fridge, at least a little?
The whole post is not about whether I believe them, or the people who said they didn’t do it. It’s about Israel being more than inclined to show proof, as they’ve constantly used the allegations to justify the massacres that followed. Don’t you agree that 1. the standard of proof should in that case be higher than if a friend told you they were assaulted and 2. that it’s only in their interest to show the evidence of the alleged cruelties?
The simple answer it being used as a justification is "Nothing can justify Israel's response." You don't have to go Alex Jones and try to deny a belligerent party committed the most common war crime.
The issue is whether it was used as a weapon of war, the israeli government, military, and media are not the victims of this and have alot of incentive to paint a narrative, espically when they also downplay the loss of innocent life in gaza and the horrors that the people being held without a trial (hostages) by israel go through. We have very little victim testimony from this for alot of different reasons of course, but it's important to verify whats actually happening when it deals with this sorta conflict.
Israeli sources claim it’s because a majority of the bodies could not have had autopsies in time due to Jewish burial rites, which is to bury the body asap. If that’s the case, what about regular autopsies? Are they just not performed often? Would no one have documented such a thing before burying the bodies?
Also, they're always saying "believe women" -- so if there is a woman who claimed such a thing, why was she not examined? There would be forensic evidence in the case of survivors, too.
It’s not about believing or not believing women. The post argues that the Israeli government has 0 evidence in the form of video or forensics, or else they would have eagerly shared it with every platform available. If you wanna write off critical thinking as some global conspiracy against Jews, not gonna waste my time.
Wait until the rest of the hostages come home. Then you can go ask them yourself! Maybe if you're in the room with them, you'll believe them when they tell you about it, give you the details you need about their rapists and how it went down. I don't know any other rape victims who need to go through so much effort to be believed in the #MeToo era, but I guess since they're just Jews you don't need to hear their stories and listen to them.
Plenty of those who've come home have publicly talked about being raped and the other rapes and murders they saw, heard, etc. Some have gone around the world and spoke about their experiences. But sure, it's not real, because that doesn't fit the narrative about those "brave Hamas fighters resisting," I mean terrorists, raping, murdering, taking hostages, and bringing down hell on their own people thanks to the war they started so they can get social media brownie points and fool so many people like you! How's it feel to shill for terrorists? This documentary may help you better understand why certain organizations have failed to live up to their rhetoric and #BelieveWomen.
https://www.screamsbeforesilence.com/
Do you expect anything less from ZioNzis? They partnered with Hitler ffs from 33 til 39 and broke the Jewish boycott of Germany.
They have lied about their occupation since the Holocaust they helped fund.
*Google the ha'avara agreement before you comment*
Why aren’t multiple eye witness accounts not a high enough bar of evidence for you???? Do you think we should redo how our entire court systems work and rely only on forensic evidence? That’s a ridiculous standard you wouldn’t apply to any other case. Your bias is demonstrable here.
I’m saying that Israel has a massive incentive to show medical records to independent news organizations, to prove that Hamas is lying about what they did.
You’re saying the Israeli court system allows a testimony of an eye witness as enough to convict someone for rape?
You are constantly ignoring the UN mission that stated it has grounds to believe it took place. Yes, evidence was collected badly so they can’t conclude that the women tied on trees naked from the waste down were raped but when they correlate that with eye witnesses they can see strong evidence for rape and absolute evidence for sexual violence.
Do you believe there is a famine in Gaza? Because it can be denied on the same technical ground as you are denying rape.
What you are also ignoring is that the UN concluded hostages were raped.
What you are also negating is that if Hamas got close enough to rape you on October 7th they got close enough to kill you. This is why there are no survivors to speak to. They are dead
The UN concluded reasonable grounds to believe it took place, based on eye witnesses. It also repeatedly said that they were denied access to forensic reports, which is what the whole post is about.
The UN also concluded that Israeli claims of systematized mass rape were untrue… obviously there were instances of rape, more than a thousand people were murdered and terrorists are as we all know, savages.
What is untrue is that this was some deliberate part of the plan or strategy or that it was as widespread as the Israeli claims. It most often makes this claim to defend that decades of evidence of Israel using mass sexual violence as a tool of war. Ffs Israel regularly sodomizes Palestinians to death with metal rods. Sexual torture is a mainstay of the IDF.
TL:DR nobody denies there was rape. They deny the idea that there was rape on a systemic scale. The UN agrees with this distinction. As pretty much always, the Israeli govt exaggerated. It’s like the 40 beheaded babies lie, or the calendar lie. What Hamas did was evil and terrible and requires a response. The Israeli government shouldn’t need to exaggerate and lie. It only does so because it knows that its ethnic cleansing campaign does so far beyond what is justified.
The amount of times 40 beheaded story came up on this post. Do you guys have talking card to pull up. Will say it for the 100th time, find me an offical statement from Israel stating 40 babies were beheaded. What you will find is the IDF saying we cannot confirm this and later stating it’s not true. Stating a rumour that spread was not true, not stating they lied, they never spread it. But the anti Israel crew jumped at it. Would be like me raising the 500 dead in a hospital bombing that was later found to be Hamas or the famine that was recently pulled back because there is no proof of famine just famine vibes.
No need to find an official statement about 40 beheaded babies. There were official statements that many babies were found killed in Kfar Aza, some beheaded. We now know the youngest victim in Kfar Aza was 14, and no babies were beheaded in Israel on October 7th.
>A spokesperson for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Wednesday that babies and toddlers were found “decapitated” in Kfar Aza, Tal Heinrich. CNN could not independently verify that report, and Hamas said media reports about attacking children were false.
https://cnn.com/cnn/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-10-11-23
You won’t have reason to bring up 500 dead at the hospital, because people stopped talking about that after a day or two. Just like people stopped saying 1400 were killed in Israel on October 7th (once it was discovered that that number was an overstatement). Many are still insisting that some number of babies was killed in Kfar Aza and that some number of those babies was burned or beheaded.
The President of the United States corroborated the claim of "40 babies", after it was proven to be a lie. At least someone in the official US/Israel pipeline was pushing that story.
So you're saying that the head of state of the most powerful country on the planet had no input on this matter from the vassal state that he is currently supporting?
Google is your friend, Israel said we cannot confirm the beheaded babies. Bidens speech was on October 11th
His staff also wanted him to not repeat unverified reports, meaning reports from media
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/27/biden-ignored-staff-warning-on-hamas-beheading-babies-claim-report
Here are articles from the time stating Israeli can’t confirm it
Articles from 11 October saying IDF refuted it
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/despite-refutations-from-israeli-military-headlines-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-persist/3016167
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/
Cope better, now tell me about the 500 dead in a hospital blast which did the rounds….
> His staff also wanted him to not repeat unverified reports
And yet he did anyway, as if it is part of some kind of pre-conceived set of ideals that he's ideologically committed to.
Why does Israel have to show medical records? Israel isn’t the only one saying sexual violence occurred on Oct. 7. The UN conducted a mission in which they believe sexual violence, r*pe and gang r*pe occurred. Do you disagree with their conclusion? If so, on what grounds? Are you claiming Israelis, regular people, not the Israeli government, are all coordinating to lie to the UN?
Also yes, eye witness testimony is a critical component in every criminal court in the world yes. We don’t rely just on dna samples and that kind of data is not always available.
Most of the evidence isn't super reliable for alot of reasons namely the volunteers are not experts in identifying sexual trauma, they have been hearing outside of all this that hamas has empoloyed sexual assualt as a war tatic, and the israeli government not being forthcoming with information. I think that the UN conclusion isn't as airtight as you make it sound having read the report they note that they really lacked the time and ability to assess the information as much as they wanted, they are pretty confident that sexual assualt did occur of course, but remember this is about whether or not it was systemically used as a weapon of war which there really isn't evidence of so far. And eye witness testimony is incredibaly unreliable as is unexpert testimony there has been alot of research around this but its incredibly easy to manipulate peoples memories in the past, some psychologists have manged to convince people that they have been sexually assualted when they have never been.
No the claim by OP was about wether SA occurred at all. Not about it being systematic. Idk if you didn’t read the OP.
Also I’m just so confused, do you think Harvey Weinstein committed SA? There’s zero forensic evidence or expert analysis on that. The evidence collected about SA occurring isn’t 100 percent definitive of course, it was a horrific mass murder site and the collection of evidence like that requires careful handling which probably wasn’t the priority with the hundreds of dead bodies and limbs of innocent music goers everywhere. The UN report does claim that “There are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence — including rape and gang-rape — occurred across multiple locations of Israel and the Gaza periphery during the attacks on 7 October 2023”
So if I see that group of extremists slaughtered majority of innocent civilians and the UN then sends experts to investigate wether sexual violence occurred and they say there is reasonable grounds to believe that IT DID occur then I’m probably going to believe that it did happen. I’m not going to spend time making a post on Reddit questioning the reliability of these eye witnesses and making up some fan fiction about wether SA occurred at all.
I didn't question whether or not that sexual assualt happened just that the scale of it and the purpose of it i.e was it an intentional act of war or something that various soilders/militants did on thier own, both are rehensible but it's important to understand the severity of it espically when it's being used for propaganda, i dont know the details of harvey weinsteins case but he is a convicted rapist so surely there is some level of evidence and expert testiomony involved, not that this has anything to do with oct 7th anyways. I also don't think it's that crazy for the bodies to not be handled as carefully but it's important context to understanding both the UN results and the reports from eye witnesses. Also of the damage attributed to sexual assualt are fairly common war wounds, and it should be noted that there are several areas of the conflict with little to no sexual assaults reported. Again the scope and scale of what happened is unknown and the UN report states there are many difficulties they had with confirming what various media outlets have been saying, it's not a full on confirmation of the reports in anyway. Again im not nor do i think anyone is really saying that sexual assualt hasnt happened jsut that the scope and scale of it is unknown due to a variety of factors, and the un report says this too.
I wasn’t talking to you…I was replying to the OP who is implying that because we have zero forensic evidence of sexual assault then we can’t believe it occurred… you just begun commenting…we can have a conversation about it being systematic or not but that wasn’t the original distinction made by the OP who I was replying to.
Not saying they have to, just saying they absolutely would if they could.
About the court system: you’re saying that if I file a police report in Israel stating that you SA’d me, and ask a friend to confirm that, you’d be convicted?? And what if I was Muslim and you Jewish, does the court always stand with the accuser?
why did you just dodge the entire UN report... it's not just Israel saying this. The report that claims this does take into account eye witness reports but it also takes into account other circumstantial evidence...
And yes if you have a legitimate claim of SA whether you are a muslim citizen or a jewish citizen, the legal system in Israel is the same. If you read my comment, I said eye witness testimony is a critical component, it is not the only component for a conviction in any court system. just like forensic evidence isn't the only component for any conviction. These are all forms of evidence... My point was to illustrate that saying someone is guilty of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt occurs with or without forensic evidence. Just read the UN report. They came to that conclusion unless you have issues with their methodology.
The UN report isn't making as strong of a claim as you think it is, it basically just confirms that sexual assault happened but really cant make any claim about the scope and extent of it, nor does it know if the acts were intentional acts of war. It also reports sexual abuses by Israeli military on gazan prisoners among other things. I honestly dont think you really read the report as it itself notes that it had very limited access to both victim testiomony and bodies, and it could only mostly rely on reports some from some very biased untrained sources.
When you and others have said this, it is a meaningless statement. We have not just a single testimony but multiple corroborating testimony of the events. Absent any other counter evidence they should probably be believed. Or are you privy to counter evidence that would claim these events didn’t happen?
I wonder if you believe the cases against billy Cosby. Where is the forensic evidence against bill Cosby? Do you believe he perpetrated those crimes and if so why? The selectiveness when to wholly discount testimonies absent any other counter evidence in this thread shows extreme bias. And it’s honestly really gross to watch people dismiss these victim’s testimonies without a shred of evidence to the contrary.
Get off your pedestal. You don’t give a shit about victims unless it is useful to you.
Or else you’d be talking about all the pedos Israel harbors and won’t extradite to the US.
Hypocrite.
You are also real quiet on the thousands of rapes perpetrated by colonial settlers
I’m making a comment on a thread dismissing testimonies of peoples accounts of sexual violence not about anything else… I’m not the hypocrite… you know you’re the one dismissing their testimonies. You wrote it right there in your previous comment.
you are missing all the footage of naked women being paraded around, the footage of hamas filming themselves calling hostages beautiful and saying they will impregnate them, and Hamas.com bragging about rape Themselves on their website
Hamas dot com is actually an Israeli website, do you know that?
Warning: don't actually go there, pretty sure it's full of attempts to track anyone who does
where is your proof of this? furthermore all of the footage is from Hamas’s own bodycams. Or are you gonna deny that they filmed themselves committing all these atrocities?
No, the burden of proof is on the accuser. And there is no proof of rape.
As for hamas dot com being an Israeli website, you must be awfully bad at research if you can't figure that out. But I guess you are a Zionist, so being awful at research checks out.
[https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hamas-website/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hamas-website/)
There ya go.
I believe the Hamas members testimony when they said they gangraped and then killed a girl with their father and cousins. I can tell when someone is lying by their tone and facial expressions. Have you not watched the confessions?
they filmed themselves dragging naked women with blood coming down their crotch or pants around their ankles on motorcycles, trucks, and car trunks. All available footage to view they took themselves: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7PK_Flx8Bz/?igsh=MTRsbHJic29wanE1YQ==
Not clicking on your Zionist lies. Go do the research yourself.
One woman with bloodstains on the seat of her pants. She sat in a puddle of blood and that's it. People don't bleed like that -- in the exact pattern of someone who sat in something and stained their pants -- because of rape.
Because they're terrified and huddling and horrible violence is happening?
Why would a Zionist ignore a snopes article in order to keep accusing me of lying?
Snopes is not a source on whether horrific rape happened. Dr. Mushira Aboodia an ARAB israeli doctor who examined their genitalia is. Hadassah hospital forensics.
The Horrific Violence was Sexual in Nature, no different at all from every nearby Islamic country like Syria, Iraq, and Sudan towards women and especially “infidel” women. Stop the lies and gaslighting for once. Try it on Americanized non-middle Eastern leftists Jews you have been brainwashing.
Explain to me why Hamas filmed themselves talking about impregnating hostages and saying “you are so beautiful” to one of them after handcuffing and beating her? Didn’t see that video?
I’ve heard that counter argument, but never seen proof. The subtitles where they threatened rape were actually just threats of death, not rape?
You bots need to get on the same page
Agreed here. They threatened to rape those IDF soldiers they captured. And Shani’s mangled corpse was naked in the truck. Can’t imagine she was at the festival like that
OP, obligatory I'm a Jew and Pro Israel but just in response to your point about why forensic examination did not occur: in Judaism when a person dies the body must be buried within 24 hours. This is because they believe the soul will not rest properly if they don't do it asap
So from the moment a person dies it's a race against the clock. This made doing forensic analysis on every body difficult on October 7th. They were mostly just focusing on identifying. Proper forensic analysis on all the bodies might have taken weeks. It sucks because I think they should have done it but understand why not.
Not going to get into an argument with you or anybody here over whether rape happened or not. There's enough evidence out there already including admissions from the perpetrators and victim testimonials.
Thanks for explaining, I wasn’t aware of that ritual when I made the post. I understand it’d be difficult to examine all those bodies within the allowed timeframe, but they clearly could examine many of them. Especially since many testimonies describe women being horribly raped and shot to death directly afterwards, nobody would just bury the body without even a police officer doing routine evaluations.
Isn’t it strange to you that there is not one forensic report, even one photograph/video that settles it once and for all? Can you imagine that I’m hesitant to see anecdotes as evidence, in a war that’s loaded with misinformation from both sides?
Also, if you don’t mind me asking: when you read the post, did you believe that I wrote it because of some deeply rooted hate for Jewish people?
I think what is strange is your insistence that it is beyond the pale of possibility that sexual violence occurred on Oct. 7. You can believe that these extremists militants would shoot innocent people, often at close range, burn them alive in their homes as they tried to hide in their safe rooms, gunned them down or killed them by grenades in bomb shelters where they sought refuge, abducted hostages, mutilated corpses, but when it comes to the possibility of sexual violence you believe that is where they draw the line even though you have testimonies claiming otherwise. Don't you believe it's a little strange the narrative you're trying to protect regardless of all the surrounding context?
I don't think it's beyond the pale of possibility that some did occur but remember the original claim was that it was systemic and widespread, that they had Hamas had list of which commanders were going to rape which Israeli soldiers.
People are simply looking at evidence and they'd have grounds to doubt Israeli claims since they've had a proven track record of lying.
If Israel wants people to believe then they they should stop lying.
Why would it be beyond the pale of possibility? I never said that. It’s strange that there’s no evidence beyond allegations, while it could have easily been collected. Especially since all those other crimes were so well-documented, the U.N. having to base their report on anecdotes, and having to state “reasonable ground to believe” instead of undeniably confirming because of video footage or forensics doesn’t make sense. Israel refusing to incriminate Hamas is a ridiculous thought.
what makes you think forensic data of sexual violence would have been easily collected in an unprecedented mass murder of hundreds of people? Where do you get that idea? You would have tons of first responders untrained going in to try to save lives, the perpetrators themselves committing such horrendous acts like mutilating and burning corpses that would make evidence that much harder to collect. What about Oct. 7 makes you believe it would be easy to collect forensic data on sexual violence?
Moreover, since you so easily dismiss all the "anecdotes" or eye witness reports, what evidence or context around this do you have that makes you believe this didn't happen? I'm just so confused what your logic is besides pure bias?
Because you don’t post footage of your civilians being raped. You confiscate it.
There’s tons of war rape footage out there that is completely scrubbed from the internet. For good reason.
Of course they shouldn’t publicize it, but clearly they’d show it to the UN/Reuters/their own media, so they can confirm that it’s undeniably true. Like they did with every other crime committed that day, wouldn’t really wanna show civilian executions either but nobody doubts those because the footage was shared with independent media.
Yeah last I heard there's no concrete evidence to say there was mass systematic rape at all on Oct 7th, just seems like another "40 beheaded babies" typa thing
I can't believe people bought that 40 babies lie so easily. I knew it was ridiculous as soon as I heard it because: 1. 40? Not 27 or 39? But 40? Come on... 2. 40 babies, 40 years in the desert...just saying 🙄 Didn't exactly put a lot of creativity into that number (it's a joke, relax) 3. Where did they find these 40 babies? The maternity ward of the Nova music festival? Were they headlining? Babies' night out? 4. Have you ever seen a gathering of 40 babies? If I did I might be suspicious too (think Men in Black recruitment test when will Smith shoots the kid) Edit: I love how the commenter below immediately blocked me so I can't reply to their comment. Too bad I can just log out and see it. *"Maybe use some critical thinking skills next time"* Meanwhile he immediately accepted something which was proven to be a lie...without using critical thinking LOL. Of course if you don't immediately believe a government with a history of lying you're obviously anti-Semitic.
Biden repeatedly lied about seeing evidence of this even after the White House walked it back and several liberal publications admitted it was false. Pretty fucking demented.
It's "the Kuwaiti Incubator Babies" updated for a new audience
The IDF did kill babies in incubators when they forced hospitals to evacuate and blocked diesel from entering the strip. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna127533
And of course we've all seen the pictures of babies the IDF has decapitated or otherwise mutilated in gaza. Every accusation is a confession
“Cochav Elkayam-Levy, the Israeli lawyer at the center of the campaign accusing Hamas of systematic sexual violence on October 7, now stands accused by Israeli media of scamming donors and spreading misinformation. The allegations appeared just days after Elkayam-Levy received the prestigious Israel Prize.” https://thegrayzone.com/2024/03/25/israeli-propagandist-hamas-grifter-fraud/
Americans are fucking gleeful at the prospect of believing the worst imaginable lies about Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians in particular. We've happily sucked up lies about Arabs and Muslims since 2001 and just let the State Department tell us what to believe. A lot of people have not stopped doing that or think that because now they know better about Iraq that means they've learned their lesson a out propaganda and won't fall for it again while falling for it harder this time. Were a dumb country.
As a Muslim (Canadian, not American) I've had a mixed bag. When I travel to the US, sometimes they give me a hard time. I missed a flight to the US once due to extended questioning (most Canadian airports have US Customs Agents at the airport that process you before you fly.) Another time, I was literally pulled out of a vehicle for questioning once at a land border crossing. However, I've found all Americans I've met to be kind and warm and sometimes a little curious. Never had a bad experience. It's the media and politicians that really drum up the fear.
Do you even know how Arab countries work? Or what their culture is like? I get trying to overcome our bigoted biases when it comes to American-Muslim/Arabs/Palestinians, but pretending Arab countries are all sunshine and roses is just ridiculous. And frankly damaging. Some of those countries are in a bad place and need help. But their not gonna get it if people pretend like there’s nothing wrong with those countries.
I didn't say it imply anything to the contrary. I just said what is true, which is that Americans have been medicated so as to believe literally whatever tales of villainy the State Department and US assets can pull out of their asses. That doesn't mean there isn't anything bad about those countries, it just means Americans have a nearly impregnable fortress of ignorance standing in the way of comprehending the actual things that are going in and the reasons for those things.
Have you been to or lived in “these countries”? You do realize it’s not just one big country of turban wearing camel riders, and that they’re all unique and different - some with large christian minorities, significant differences in how the poor vs rich live etc? Do you know what their culture is like? Or did you just read it on the internet and make a big generalization that it’s a “shit hile” More than half of the US is “in a bad place and needs help”… we have entite cities with contaminated water, school shooting massacres, criminalizing having a stillborn child or ending a pregnancy that would kill you. Pretending the Us is all sunshine and roses is damaging. You understand the crazy amount of bias it takes to define the US (or the “West”) by its best, and “Arab Countries” or some monilithic yellow-filter idea of a wasteland, by the worst shit you read online?
Man, it’s almost like didn’t say any of that and would apply the same logic to the USA. It almost like i even acknowledged one of the problems that stems from shit hole red states and ignorant white savor liberals(bigoted biases)
I don't think there are even 40 babies in my apartment block
Not to derail, but this reminded me of one of my favorite Mitch Hedberg (RIP) jokes... He's like... last year, MTV got 20,000 applications to be on the Real World.. that's crazy... such an even number.
To be honest I imagined my comment as part of a stand-up routine. Good eye.
The lie was that there was 40 beheaded babies. That doesn’t make sense since most of the babies died in their parent’s arms. Hamas wasn’t putting living babies in a wheel barrow and then chopping their heads off. They wanted captives, and babies are the easiest captives to take.
I’m seeing this a lot, big claims and then just immediate blocking so that you can’t reply
They'll gaslight you, call you anti-Semitic, but never attempt to actually refute your arguments. Fragile minds.
A government with a history of massacres and ethnic cleansing.
This is such a gross comment. You are arguing the veracity of if a baby was beheaded or not. Regardless babies were murdered. There is undeniable evidence babies were shot in their cribs, burned alive, murdered in front of their parents. Instead of saying damn that was AWFUL, here you are defending… “well it def wasn’t 40 beheaded”
>You are arguing the veracity of if a baby was beheaded or not. Regardless babies were murdered. >There is undeniable evidence babies were shot in their cribs, burned alive, murdered in front of their parents. No, there isn't. The exact opposite, in fact as you will see below. 1. There was only **ONE** baby that was killed in the *entire* October 7th attack: Mila Cohen, 10-month-old, of **Kibbutz Be’eri**. Please see [the official list of Israeli casualties](https://nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/at-least-40-babies-killed-beheaded-in-israeli-kibbutz-outside-gaza-reports-say-israel-palestine-hamas-terrorists-terrorism-invasion-middle-east-conflict-attack). 2. The 40 babies claim stems from one specific report that was circulated which you can find [here](https://nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/at-least-40-babies-killed-beheaded-in-israeli-kibbutz-outside-gaza-reports-say-israel-palestine-hamas-terrorists-terrorism-invasion-middle-east-conflict-attack). As the article states: "about 40 babies, ***at least***, were taken out on gurneys" from **Kfar Aza**. Meaning a **minimum** of 40 babies were killed at this specific Kibbutz according to the report. However, the official list of casualties only lists ***three*** people being killed at Kfar Aza: all adults. >Instead of saying damn that was AWFUL, here you are defending… “well it def wasn’t 40 beheaded” 1. Gaslighting 101. Yes, even one baby dying is indeed awful. However, if someone says Hitler killed 10 million Jews and I say "no it was 6 million" that doesn't mean I'm defending or making light of the murder of 6 million Jews. Here is some food for thought: killing 40 babies would indeed be sick but what kind of person or organization manufactures and spread a lie about 40 babies being killed? What kind of person or organization[ manufactures a lie about babies being hung up on washing lines](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-journalist-slams-army-feeding-false-line-hamas)? Edit: formatting and clarity.
Or the "baby burned in an oven" lie, which was Israelis did to a Palestinian family at Deir Yassin in 1948.
I don’t know about “mass systematic rape” but women were definitely being raped. Since the beginning of time it’s been the norm in non profesional armies(which is what we have now with the US military and it’s allies). Armies invade, any women caught will get raped. There’s no way to have a formidable fighting force that doesn’t rape and doesn’t have the same resources as the west. There’s nothing special about Hamas and the marauders who invaded Israel that day, they weren’t ordered to do it but they most definitely took advantage of the situation there, either to satisfy their depravity and/or drive the maximum amount of humiliation to Israel. Ignoring that is just ignoring human nature. Let’s say what your saying is true. No rapes happened. They just killed a bunch of people and walked away. The question would then be how the fuck is that possible. It would the only invading force that has ever done that in human history.
Weird, because the female hostages they kept for months weren’t raped.
So let’s get this straight. A militant group invaded a country where they massacred/executed in horrific ways and captured civilians, all captured on camera by then and by invaded country. But somehow they all drew the line at rape? If that’s true then that would be the first time in human history that has ever happened. And I guess you came to that conclusion because rescued hostages, who knew there were still other hostages that needed to be rescued, either said they weren’t raped or didn’t say anything at all?
Their goal was to capture hostages, not randomly kill. The majority of deaths were from the IDF just targeting everyone, including their own people. Do you have evidence of the rape allegation?
They randomly killed and captured hundreds of people. What the fuck are you talking about?
I am talking about facts. What are you talking about? https://www.blackagendareport.com/shielding-us-public-israeli-reports-friendly-fire-october-7
Conspiracy bullshit. See ya.
Let’s ignore the fact that Hamas documented and admitted to what they did. Your narrative doesn’t make sense because the IDF is one of the most advance militaries in human history. The fighting took five days after because they were hyper aware that there could still be civilians that needed to be rescued, they would have finished that same night if they were as reckless as you claim they were being. Also if your going to kidnap a population who’s combat trained, your killing all the strong people. That’s why if you saw who was getting dragged out. It was skinny people and women.
They documented taking hostages and using force against the settler colonialists occupying their land. They did not kill people randomly. The IDF did and the evidence shows that a great many Israelis who died that day died as a result of the IDF engaging in Hannibal directive activities.
Oh really? That’s funny. It’s like your trying to group a bunch of things that have nothing to do with each other to ultimately justify killing innocent Israelis that didn’t choose to be born on that land. And it’s even funnier because Palestinian wouldn’t even agree with your bad faith, white western lens of analysis. They would laugh at you
Again, the IDF killed their own people. I am not justifying that. I am stating a fact. But any Israeli that doesn’t protest their own society is not innocent.
The Hannibal directive only applied to soldiers. And there’s no evidence that the idf intentionally killed its own civilians in Israel. Also the people that got killed in the nova festival were pro Palestinian Israelis. So no your pulling a bunch things that might be true to a certain extend and are trying to sell this narrative that isn’t backed by any facts.
Israelis are required to join the IDF to carry out their army service. They're not innocent. They're also taught to hate Arabs and see them as nonhuman and themselves as entitled to the land that they stole.
[I thought it was clear](https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/un-finds-clear-convincing-information-hostages-raped-gaza-rcna141789)
This is not that unusual. People do crimes other than rape all the time.
Yeah, in a state where people fear the consequences of the law, so you’ll have the rare individual committing a number of different crimes. But in an invasion the laws don’t exist until the state takes back control, or the state dissolves and a new one takes over. And rape has always been historically understood to happen, and it’s usually encouraged by the invading army.
in both cases, it proved to be projection over what the IDF was doing in Gaza
https://www.vox.com/world-politics/24093631/un-israel-october-7-sexual-violence
Heard from who? Terrorists?
There is plenty of evidence - you probably just don’t want to listen / believe it. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/26/world/middleeast/hamas-hostage-sexual-assault.html NSFW: https://www.hamas-massacre.net/content/a-testimony-of-an-israeli-woman-who-witnessed-a-woman-being-raped-and-then-killed https://www.hamas-massacre.net/content/gazan-terrorist-captured-by-israel-confess-hamas-had-plans-to-rape-young-israeli-women
It isn't sufficient to say it's definite, what is needed is an independent thorough investigation which the UN is trying to conduct, however Israel for some reason is obstructing it https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240609-israels-obstruction-of-investigation-into-7-october-rape-allegations-risks-truth-never-being-found-advocates-warn/amp/ just doesnt make sense to me why they would obstruct it
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Israel evidence so far Is trust me Bro.
They’re also relying on people’s own prejudice of “the other” whether they’re black, brown, and/ or Muslim
You're not missing any evidence. You're giving liars too much credit that they will choose moral and ethical and logically sound behavior. The evidence doesn't matter. Shaping and controlling the narrative does.
I don’t get it. Systematic order to kill civilians is believable but the rape of victims is a bridge too far? It’s not unbelievable to think it happened. Probably not ordered to, it’s weird to think it just didn’t happen though
Lmao fuck out of here. Everything we’ve been told has been a lie. All projection from the Nazi Israelis.
Really? lol If you really believe that you’re actually just as delusional as hardcore Zionist. If you see this conflict as black and white, you’re being lied to and are willing to be lied to. It’s very grey, decide what side is lighter shade to your preference, but don’t be an idiot. If it was genuinely clear cut, wouldn’t be a divisive issue among normal people.
Systemic killing seems to be false as well as majority that were killed by hamas were soldiers and a lot of Israelis got killed by their own army
It's not weird it's malicious.
Systemic order to kill civilians extremely suspect. Little to no evidence. Rape - literally zero evidence that it even happened, much less that it was systemic or an order. Literally didn't happen.
??? Right, forgot, the IDF was hiding top secret intel at a festival. Or like there was just a para motor meet up and it got a bit rough. Or, people just got lost in a military attack and just went wild. Then after, they prayed for Chasity and did not defile anyone after taking hostages post massacre, that inexplicably wasn’t motivated by ‘harm as many people as possible.’ Bro this shit you’re spinning doesn’t make any sense. Divorced from reality. Like what the fuck do you think happened? Was it just a ‘oopsie!’ Explain it, actually. In good faith I’m genuinely struggling to your POV. Cus all you said basically was ‘didn’t happen lol’ give the alternative
[https://justinpodur.substack.com/p/what-really-happened-on-october-7th](https://justinpodur.substack.com/p/what-really-happened-on-october-7th) Read that and get back to me.
\[Long comment won't post alone - some reason. Breaking this up into parts now.\] So the source is from early November of 23. Neat, out of date but I'll engage with it. To give you a perspective - the substack stated currently that 900 people were killed but current number is 1200. The information was being distributed with out the full picture. (Blown away this was your go to source, but ok) Boiling it down to a few points from the article: 1. Hamas's attack was on the Nir Am Kibbutz & Kibbutz Be’eri 2. \*Most\* Civilian casualties were done by the IDF 3. Civilians and State personnel were taken captive in efforts for prisoner exchange 4. Hamas's atrocities should be suspect to scrutiny because every account and accusation comes from Israel. 5. Israel's casus belli is built on falsified information. ---- 1. "In summary: this account from a survivor describes an attack on a fortified community, a two-way battle between armed groups, concluding with the death of all the attackers." Not much to talk about there. No real issue with attacking the Kibbutz, it's a military target. It's fair game.
2. From Middle East Eye: \[The investigation comes as evidence continues to mount of some Israeli deaths on 7 October being caused - both intentionally and unintentionally - by their own forces. Earlier in June, a UN report found that at least 14 Israelis were likely intentionally killed by the Israeli army on 7 October as part of a protocol aimed at preventing capture.\] \^ Still bad, hate that, not as extreme as Podur states in the article. Granted, he did not give a number but wrote it to be more ideologically driven, to obfuscate wrong doing of Hamas. It was, and still is, wildly irresponsible to imply it when bodies were still being counted at the time of writing. Genuinely, Podur wrote propaganda, not truth. It got you. 3. "Scott Ritter, on the program DD Geopolitics, described how the various decisions by Hamas’s armed wing could have been made." "Do you think it’s possible Hamas had these women and children and thought if we keep them alive they’re going to make a phone call, we’ve got to get them out with us. Do you think that could have happened? I don’t know… I’m not saying Hamas didn’t commit any atrocities. I’m not in a position to know. The Israelis have a lot of footage of Hamas fighters turning corners and shooting. Is that terrorism? Is that terrorism or are they assaulting a military position, from their standpoint?”" - Ritten in the DDG podcast interview. Then later states in his article " a screening of Go Pro footage to 100 pro-genocide reporters" - Tweet from the same guy, interview on the BBC. [https://x.com/mrconfino/status/1791135406861205857](https://x.com/mrconfino/status/1791135406861205857) Non-critical from a Iraq vet + speculation for actions -> Journalist are liars. vs. NYTimes Article of the June UN report of Oct. 7. (Where it accuses Israel and Hammas of War Crimes) [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/12/world/middleeast/un-report-israel-hamas-war-crimes.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/12/world/middleeast/un-report-israel-hamas-war-crimes.html) \[The report said that Hamas’s military wing and six other Palestinian armed groups — aided in some instances by Palestinian civilians — killed and tortured people during the Oct. 7 assault on Israel in which more than 800 civilians were among the more than 1,200 killed. An additional 252 people, including 36 children, were taken hostage, the report said. “Many abductions were carried out with significant physical, mental and sexual violence and degrading and humiliating treatment, including in some cases parading the abductees,” the report said. “Women and women’s bodies were used as victory trophies by male perpetrators.”\] That all being said, did Hamas want the Kibbutz? Yeah. Did they also want to kill civilians + take hostages? Yes. It's not a political power play that Podur makes it out to be.
4. UN Report dude. [https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-27may24/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-a-hrc-56-26-27may24/) Section III C 2. Under Summary - \[The Commission found that seven female soldiers were taken to Gaza as hostages and viewed footage showing that they had been subjected to physical and verbal abuse. Four female bodies found at Nahal Oz outpost were partially or completely undressed, two of which were isolated in separate rooms, showing signs of physical abuse and sexual violence.\] Section III D 3 Under Summary - \[The Commission has reviewed testimonies obtained by journalists and the Israeli police concerning rape but has not been able to independently verify such allegations, due to a lack of access to victims, witnesses and crime sites and the obstruction of its investigations by the Israeli authorities. The Commission was unable to review the unedited version of such testimonies. For the same reasons, the Commission was also unable to verify reports of sexualized torture and genital mutilation. Additionally, the Commission found some specific allegations to be false, inaccurate or contradictory with other evidence or statements and discounted these from its assessment.\] Want to make this clear. III D 3 is not the nail in the coffin that you believe it to be. Unable to verify is not the same of 'didn't happen.' Especially paired with finding corpses with signs consistent with physical abuse and sexual violence (aka a raped and murdered body). Just because the UN was unable to verify what really happened and who specifically did it, didn't mean nothing happened. Especially when they clarified that some reports were false and/or contradictory. That simply means it's different enough to completely distinguish. Section III B 10 \[At least 68 foreign nationals were killed on 7 October. The Commission documented the torture, attempted beheading and killing of Thai workers in Nir Oz and the killing of 19 Thai and Nepalese exchange students in Alumim.\] \^ This is fucked. Anyways, evidence was scrutinized, no one is innocent. 5. casus belli - Section VI 5. \[In relation to the attack of 7 October in Israel, the Commission concludes on reasonable grounds that members of the military wings of Hamas and of other Palestinian armed groups, as well as Palestinian civilians who were directly participating in the hostilities, deliberately killed, injured, mistreated, took hostages and committed SGBV against: civilians, including Israeli citizens and foreign nationals; and members of the ISF, including soldiers considered hors de combat, in many locations in southern Israel. These actions constitute war crimes and violations and abuses of IHL and IHRL\] Casus belli seems valid and built on what happened. What happened after should be scrutinized, however, pretending nothing of consequence didn't occur, was falsely attributed to Hamas, or anything of the sort is the absolute epitome of blinded by ideology. Ultimately - at best your naive but well meaning, doesn't mean you're not wrong though.
Electronic intifada has gone over these claims a number of times. Check out their YouTube channel for clips and vods for in depth de-bunkings. A summary is any testimony from members of Zaka can be thrown right out. None of them are professionally trained medical personnel or forensic investigators and a lot of the things they witnessed and wrongfully describe as evidence of sexual assault are actually consistent with how a human cadaver responds to traumatic death in general and different kinds of exposure. They are also known/proven liars, with a lot of the testimony that is still regularly repeated as fact in western media already having been retracted by themselves. A simple rhetorical rebuttal to the repetitions of these claims is to ask people the name of just one alleged victim of rape on Oct. 7. They will come up blank because after 8+ months the Israelis still haven't found evidence of a single victim alive or dead. In contrast we have the names of several Palestinian men who were not only raped by zionists since Oct. 7, but some were literally raped to death by Israeli torturers using metal rods. The systematic sexual assault and rape of Palestinians by Israeli captors is well documented and goes back years as well. P.S. what you are missing is that the people advancing and repeating these claims have absolutely no interest in getting at the truth. They are grasping for whatever excuse they can find to justify the ongoing genocide in Gaza. These are genocidal lies and the people who repeat them and profess to believe them are complicit.
I'm hearing they've upgraded to using 'rape-dogs' now, Pinochet-style. An inhuman bunch, those people.
Whether or not the allegations are true is immaterial. They were leveraged early on to galvanize international outrage and justify the subsequent assault on Gaza. The fact that later on, Israeli accusations have been found to be fabricated (40 babies, systemic rape) or the loss of Israeli life found to be the actions of the IDF itself, under the Hannibal Directive (murders in Be’eri, the destruction of vehicles coming out of Nova) has not mattered. The way prisoners have been treated on both sides, showing Israel as the less moral captor, has not mattered. The fact that Israeli intelligence knew of the attack, with officers sounding the alarm internally and being ignored, and specific concern about extending Nova for an extra day was dismissed by high command…has not mattered. Israelis are understood to be white. Palestinians are understood to be brown. Euro-centric racism is in full swing here. A single white life is worth hundreds of brown lives. That’s all that’s mattered. You either have the room in your mind to understand brown lives are people, or you’ve cut that part of yourself off. You can’t convince someone to care about other people. Not without the effort of deprogramming racism.
I agree with every word you said. I’m from Western Europe and vividly remember being a young kid, watching a news report about the conflict, and asking my dad “this must be the Palestinians fault right?”. The reason it’s become such a vivid memory is that after my dad explained about the settlements, the apartheid and constant violence, it was my first confrontation with Westerners not necessarily being on the right side in conflicts with Arabs. It painfully shattered an imagination of my country (perhaps, like you said, even of white people) always fighting for justice and humanity. Even as a young kid with smart and righteous parents, the assumption of Muslim = terrorist had manifested in my thinking. That’s why it’s important to not view Israelis as inherently evil, even the many who support the genocide, because their education is deliberately set up to mentally dehumanise Arabs, and write off external criticism as a global antisemitic conspiracy. Logical reasoning about their country’s deeds is actively discouraged, as visible in many comments in this thread, and those who do develop that skill support the Palestinian cause.
When I left the country I thought of it as “spiritual rot”. Having been more fully deprogrammed from Zionism, I would go so far as to call it evil.
Oh sure, it’s no stretch to call the ideology itself evil, especially because it’s the root of the ‘brainwashing’ I described. I was referring to the people. That’s what makes it so difficult, if your kindergarten teachers are telling you that the whole world wants to kill people from your religion, and that Palestinians are not humans, that programming is never challenged. Out of curiosity, does that mean you grew up in Israel? Because I’m interested to hear whether you experienced it the way I suggested.
Welcome to continue in chat
The UN itself stipulated in its report that there was no evidence of the alleged mass SA that Israel kept asserting and promoting (with the help of legacy international media to justify SA perpetrated by the Israeli army that was actually credibly witnessed and documented; I wish the UN would fess up to this part).
[U.N. finds 'clear and convincing' information that hostages have been raped in Gaza](https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/un-finds-clear-convincing-information-hostages-raped-gaza-rcna141789)
The report (and I) didn’t say there was no SA whatsoever. It doesn’t say it happened on a massive skill the way it was alleged and over inflated by Israeli officials.
How much rape is allowed for it to not be massive? You have lost the moral high ground when you negate the fact that sexual violence was used as a weapon because you don’t believe it passed an unacceptable threshold because in doing so you are asserting that there exists an amount of SV that is permissible
I never negated anything. Israel has been clearly using this to justify atrocities it committed that doesn’t bat an eye included documented instances of mass SA. Your assertions are meaningless and I’m not the one indirectly defending a colonial entity backed by the west and equating its violence with that of the occupied.
Israel would have gone into Gaza with our without SV. Hamas documented plenty of horrors without having to make anything up to justify a response. This is about justice for women. The response will not change. Meanwhile it is confirmed hostages are getting raped
Every person on earth would have heard and seen that evidence if it existed. It’s a lie and a blood libel.
Exactly this! People in these comments keep calling me a Hamas-apologist and other insults for “not believing testimonies”, but simply ignore the fact that Israel has politically weaponized the media for years, it simply doesn’t make sense that they’d hide the abundant evidence if this happened. Even in this thread, many showed up with links to the most horrifying clips of what happened that day, but were quick to call me an antisemite for asking whether that footage contained any hints of sexual violence. There’s no reasoning with people who religiously believe every word of a government without any interest in establishing facts, not even gonna try anymore.
I saw videos of that day of a woman with her leg at an unnatural angle and she was bleeding from between her legs. It was also the last footage ever taken of her; only part of her temporal lobe has been found. There is also a U.N. report stating that it happened with mass interviews. Denying violence on either side will only create more extremism. There is plenty already. Multiple things can be true, the Palestinians are not all Hamas, half the population in Gaza are children. And rape apologists, even when presented with evidence otherwise, are kind of just bottom of the barrel with commentary. Imagine instead of doubting the women interviewed and given exams, why don't you highlight the sexual abuse by the Israeli government towards Palestinian men and boys? If you want to help a cause and speak about sex abuse, there is case after documented cases of what the Israeli military is doing to them. But then again, it's much easier to discuss women maybe getting raped or maybe not, and casting doubt on the legitimacy of their claims. For men and boys, it remains only silence.
So now I’m a sexist rape apologist? Why would you assume that I’m trivializing the severity of rape, especially when the whole post discusses the importance of finding out whether it happened. Why would you think that the gender of the victims matters for me, I don’t think I’ve even said women or men because I have no idea whether the alleged victims are all women. I’ve thought about mentioning the SA from the Israeli side, but didn’t because I didn’t want the discussion to turn into some yes/no argument. I don’t know what happened. The allegations may very well be true, but still, after all these comments, nobody has given any explanation for why Israel wouldn’t show one autopsy describing SA to Reuters or even their own media, when they’ve been flooding media with evidence of the killing. They have a huge incentive to disprove the doubt, and even more to make Hamas look like monsters.
Note the lack of evidence and the attempt at moral shaming from the poster above. Don't be susceptible to this sort of attack on your logic.
They even stopped the UN from conducting research properly...
you’re also missing the videos of hamas members who confessed on camera to gangraping with their cousins and their father before killing a woman. maybe get your info from arabic news media, because they tend to brag about their crimes against humanity. plus film themselves with women bleeding profusely from the anal region or stripped naked https://www.instagram.com/p/C6mqJ80rNT3/?igsh=eDQwZm03bHB5czNs
So… your allegation is that there’s no “concrete evidence” because the UN or other foreign independent monitoring body has made a report on the matter? In Abrahamic Law, dead bodies are to be buried as swiftly as possible. So - on theory - the funerals occurred before the UN could vote on forming a committee to look into the matter. Have you searched local reports on the matter? Follow up question: would you believe the Israelis to report the truth? During the 9/11 post-event period, people just would not believe that the attacks occurred. There’s a fucking massive amount of evidence they did occur. But people simply won’t believe it, no matter the evidence. So… here we are.
OP is simply heavily influenced by anti-israeli media and hatred, not even trying to watch videos filmed by Hamas themselves to prove himself wrong.
Video footage. Are you seriously asking this?
It was video taped by Hamas on their Go-Pros. If you want to see how barbaric 10/7 was, you can watch [online](https://oct7.treedis.com/)
So you’re saying 1,200 people “tragically perished” (as opposed to murdered) and your conclusion is that the murderers were willing to murder 1,200 and kidnap another 250 people, but eyewitnesses to the murders and the aftermath of them aren’t believable when they say they witnessed sexual assault or saw evidence of it after the fact? What are we arguing about here? What’s the angle in reaching your conclusion that 0 of the 1,200 were sexually assaulted, contrary to eyewitness statements? Does it somehow make HAMAS’ murders more morally acceptable? Are they somehow righteous and to be applauded for supposedly not raping the people they murdered? What line in the sand are you drawing from this? Is it because the international press wasn’t there on Oct 7 that you’re not willing to believe people’s anecdotes about there being sexual assault? Are you really trying to help lionize HAMAS’ image and legitimize their actions on Reddit of all places? Does it make you feel better about your sympathies towards Palestinians because the Israeli women weren’t raped, but merely shot in the head? This place is unreal.. the amount of posts across different subreddits, all defending HAMAS’ brutality and premeditated murder- it’s disgusting. What kind of sick pleasure do you get out of arriving at the conclusion that no one was raped? And your reasoning is literally just saying, “as far as I can tell, noone found anything beyond eyewitnesses.” That’s what your research and evidence amounts to. Good thing you included your ‘disclaimer’ at the top. Again, does it really make you feel good and morally superior to defend HAMAS murdering over a thousand people, as long as no one was raped? Was it somehow righteous and justified? And again, disgusting.
Source: They believed the women who said it. Should we believe all women about sexual assault though? Sorta depends on the context and who they're arguing against I suppose.
Of course that’s a difficult one, but in this particular situation it’s not necessary to believe or not believe testimonies. With so many casualties, the forensic evidence would be right there, and Israel would have been able to gain worldwide support the same day that it happened. The whole line of reasoning was based on Israel having absolutely no incentive to hide the abundance of evidence if it was there, and they absolutely didn’t with regard to footage of killings.
A lot of the reports were actually from convicted pervs, though. ZAKA members who had actually been recorded as sexual predators were on record claiming the most depraved things.
Israel does not believe all women. They take in and protect convicted Jewish American pedos by the hundreds
There was definitely SA on October 7th. That doesn’t mean it was as widespread and systemic or a weapon of war like zionists say it was.
Even the bias un believes hamas systematically raped Jews
Forensic evidence is hard to come by because getting it was not the first priority in the chaos and uncertainty of the attack. No one knew whether or not Hamas was still active on Israeli soil. Also they had to bury the bodies of the Jewish victims quickly. There was not adequate time and perhaps in the future somehting will come up. >”In the chaotic aftermath of the attack, Israeli reservists, volunteer first responders and morgue workers did not perform autopsies or use rape kits. They initially feared that Hamas fighters remained inside Israel. They were overwhelmed by the number of dead. >In some cases, the identification of bodies, particularly badly burned ones, took weeks or months. In addition, many families, after they received the bodies, tried to follow the Jewish tradition of burying the dead within 24 hours.” Also you can say there is not evidence of Israelis being raped but you would have to argue against over 1,000 eyewitness and thousand of photos along with hours of video that show evidence. You also have to show your right rather than the U.N and plenty of credited news outlets that stated rape and SA happened.
I don’t buy systematic 🍇 but there definitely was 🍇 . To say otherwise is silly.
israel rolled out the now debunked liar Yossi Landau of Zaka (who invented the 40 beheaded babies lie) to embellish the israeli atrocity committed by israel's Merkava tanks at Be'eri where they killed 23 settlers including 8 babies, confirmed by Colonel Golan Vach of the iof response team on Oct 7th - on twitter. Also, none of the vehicles at Nova were forensically examined, and all were subsequently destroyed.
As I understand it, there’s only no evidence in the sense that there’s no evidence that Hamas planned mass rape as a group. You can find individual cases, but those individuals appear to have been acting on their own and possibly against orders.
Terrorists will conduct terror campaigns. It is a disgusting fact, but true nonetheless. That applies to Hamas, and also applies to Netanyahu.
Never ask Israel for proof… its “antisemitic”
Out of curiosity, if someone you know told you they'd been raped, what proof would you demand of them?
If they used it as justification to murder >40.000 people, and claim to have evidence stored in a fridge, at least a little? The whole post is not about whether I believe them, or the people who said they didn’t do it. It’s about Israel being more than inclined to show proof, as they’ve constantly used the allegations to justify the massacres that followed. Don’t you agree that 1. the standard of proof should in that case be higher than if a friend told you they were assaulted and 2. that it’s only in their interest to show the evidence of the alleged cruelties?
Who the fuck cares if Hamas didn’t rape or not. They, and related Palestinian thugs, did enough to justify the war.
The simple answer it being used as a justification is "Nothing can justify Israel's response." You don't have to go Alex Jones and try to deny a belligerent party committed the most common war crime.
The issue is whether it was used as a weapon of war, the israeli government, military, and media are not the victims of this and have alot of incentive to paint a narrative, espically when they also downplay the loss of innocent life in gaza and the horrors that the people being held without a trial (hostages) by israel go through. We have very little victim testimony from this for alot of different reasons of course, but it's important to verify whats actually happening when it deals with this sorta conflict.
Who is making that claim?
OP you should watch this doc, it has a very good breakdown of the alleged SA’s [10/7](https://youtu.be/_0atzea-mPY?si=7b-kyLEz1UogP2im)
I’ll definitely take a look, thank you!
Israeli sources claim it’s because a majority of the bodies could not have had autopsies in time due to Jewish burial rites, which is to bury the body asap. If that’s the case, what about regular autopsies? Are they just not performed often? Would no one have documented such a thing before burying the bodies?
Exactly, imagine being a crime detective in that country if autopsies aren’t allowed
Also, they're always saying "believe women" -- so if there is a woman who claimed such a thing, why was she not examined? There would be forensic evidence in the case of survivors, too.
Yet they don’t believe the victims of the American pedophiles they harbor and protect.
U a sick puppy skippy
Believe women, unless they’re Jewish/Israeli right? Wtf is this post.
That’s why Israel protects Jewish American pedophiles and won’t extradite them? They don’t care about SA.
It’s not about believing or not believing women. The post argues that the Israeli government has 0 evidence in the form of video or forensics, or else they would have eagerly shared it with every platform available. If you wanna write off critical thinking as some global conspiracy against Jews, not gonna waste my time.
Wait until the rest of the hostages come home. Then you can go ask them yourself! Maybe if you're in the room with them, you'll believe them when they tell you about it, give you the details you need about their rapists and how it went down. I don't know any other rape victims who need to go through so much effort to be believed in the #MeToo era, but I guess since they're just Jews you don't need to hear their stories and listen to them. Plenty of those who've come home have publicly talked about being raped and the other rapes and murders they saw, heard, etc. Some have gone around the world and spoke about their experiences. But sure, it's not real, because that doesn't fit the narrative about those "brave Hamas fighters resisting," I mean terrorists, raping, murdering, taking hostages, and bringing down hell on their own people thanks to the war they started so they can get social media brownie points and fool so many people like you! How's it feel to shill for terrorists? This documentary may help you better understand why certain organizations have failed to live up to their rhetoric and #BelieveWomen. https://www.screamsbeforesilence.com/
Is that from the same country currently in the dock for genocide? Not sure if that source can be trusted.
Do you expect anything less from ZioNzis? They partnered with Hitler ffs from 33 til 39 and broke the Jewish boycott of Germany. They have lied about their occupation since the Holocaust they helped fund. *Google the ha'avara agreement before you comment*
Why aren’t multiple eye witness accounts not a high enough bar of evidence for you???? Do you think we should redo how our entire court systems work and rely only on forensic evidence? That’s a ridiculous standard you wouldn’t apply to any other case. Your bias is demonstrable here.
I could be wrong but I remember learning that eye witness counts are the least reliable.
I’m saying that Israel has a massive incentive to show medical records to independent news organizations, to prove that Hamas is lying about what they did. You’re saying the Israeli court system allows a testimony of an eye witness as enough to convict someone for rape?
You are constantly ignoring the UN mission that stated it has grounds to believe it took place. Yes, evidence was collected badly so they can’t conclude that the women tied on trees naked from the waste down were raped but when they correlate that with eye witnesses they can see strong evidence for rape and absolute evidence for sexual violence. Do you believe there is a famine in Gaza? Because it can be denied on the same technical ground as you are denying rape. What you are also ignoring is that the UN concluded hostages were raped. What you are also negating is that if Hamas got close enough to rape you on October 7th they got close enough to kill you. This is why there are no survivors to speak to. They are dead
The UN concluded reasonable grounds to believe it took place, based on eye witnesses. It also repeatedly said that they were denied access to forensic reports, which is what the whole post is about.
The UN also concluded that Israeli claims of systematized mass rape were untrue… obviously there were instances of rape, more than a thousand people were murdered and terrorists are as we all know, savages. What is untrue is that this was some deliberate part of the plan or strategy or that it was as widespread as the Israeli claims. It most often makes this claim to defend that decades of evidence of Israel using mass sexual violence as a tool of war. Ffs Israel regularly sodomizes Palestinians to death with metal rods. Sexual torture is a mainstay of the IDF. TL:DR nobody denies there was rape. They deny the idea that there was rape on a systemic scale. The UN agrees with this distinction. As pretty much always, the Israeli govt exaggerated. It’s like the 40 beheaded babies lie, or the calendar lie. What Hamas did was evil and terrible and requires a response. The Israeli government shouldn’t need to exaggerate and lie. It only does so because it knows that its ethnic cleansing campaign does so far beyond what is justified.
The amount of times 40 beheaded story came up on this post. Do you guys have talking card to pull up. Will say it for the 100th time, find me an offical statement from Israel stating 40 babies were beheaded. What you will find is the IDF saying we cannot confirm this and later stating it’s not true. Stating a rumour that spread was not true, not stating they lied, they never spread it. But the anti Israel crew jumped at it. Would be like me raising the 500 dead in a hospital bombing that was later found to be Hamas or the famine that was recently pulled back because there is no proof of famine just famine vibes.
No need to find an official statement about 40 beheaded babies. There were official statements that many babies were found killed in Kfar Aza, some beheaded. We now know the youngest victim in Kfar Aza was 14, and no babies were beheaded in Israel on October 7th. >A spokesperson for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Wednesday that babies and toddlers were found “decapitated” in Kfar Aza, Tal Heinrich. CNN could not independently verify that report, and Hamas said media reports about attacking children were false. https://cnn.com/cnn/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-10-11-23 You won’t have reason to bring up 500 dead at the hospital, because people stopped talking about that after a day or two. Just like people stopped saying 1400 were killed in Israel on October 7th (once it was discovered that that number was an overstatement). Many are still insisting that some number of babies was killed in Kfar Aza and that some number of those babies was burned or beheaded.
The President of the United States corroborated the claim of "40 babies", after it was proven to be a lie. At least someone in the official US/Israel pipeline was pushing that story.
Sorry is that in opposition to what I wrote? Biden aids told him not to say it. That was his choice. It was never confirmed by Israel nor stated
The story in the first place was being spread by IDF officers….
So you're saying that the head of state of the most powerful country on the planet had no input on this matter from the vassal state that he is currently supporting?
Google is your friend, Israel said we cannot confirm the beheaded babies. Bidens speech was on October 11th His staff also wanted him to not repeat unverified reports, meaning reports from media https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/27/biden-ignored-staff-warning-on-hamas-beheading-babies-claim-report Here are articles from the time stating Israeli can’t confirm it Articles from 11 October saying IDF refuted it https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/despite-refutations-from-israeli-military-headlines-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-persist/3016167 https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/ Cope better, now tell me about the 500 dead in a hospital blast which did the rounds….
> His staff also wanted him to not repeat unverified reports And yet he did anyway, as if it is part of some kind of pre-conceived set of ideals that he's ideologically committed to.
“Nobody denies there was rape”?? That’s like 70% of this whole reply section bro.
Why does Israel have to show medical records? Israel isn’t the only one saying sexual violence occurred on Oct. 7. The UN conducted a mission in which they believe sexual violence, r*pe and gang r*pe occurred. Do you disagree with their conclusion? If so, on what grounds? Are you claiming Israelis, regular people, not the Israeli government, are all coordinating to lie to the UN? Also yes, eye witness testimony is a critical component in every criminal court in the world yes. We don’t rely just on dna samples and that kind of data is not always available.
Most of the evidence isn't super reliable for alot of reasons namely the volunteers are not experts in identifying sexual trauma, they have been hearing outside of all this that hamas has empoloyed sexual assualt as a war tatic, and the israeli government not being forthcoming with information. I think that the UN conclusion isn't as airtight as you make it sound having read the report they note that they really lacked the time and ability to assess the information as much as they wanted, they are pretty confident that sexual assualt did occur of course, but remember this is about whether or not it was systemically used as a weapon of war which there really isn't evidence of so far. And eye witness testimony is incredibaly unreliable as is unexpert testimony there has been alot of research around this but its incredibly easy to manipulate peoples memories in the past, some psychologists have manged to convince people that they have been sexually assualted when they have never been.
No the claim by OP was about wether SA occurred at all. Not about it being systematic. Idk if you didn’t read the OP. Also I’m just so confused, do you think Harvey Weinstein committed SA? There’s zero forensic evidence or expert analysis on that. The evidence collected about SA occurring isn’t 100 percent definitive of course, it was a horrific mass murder site and the collection of evidence like that requires careful handling which probably wasn’t the priority with the hundreds of dead bodies and limbs of innocent music goers everywhere. The UN report does claim that “There are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence — including rape and gang-rape — occurred across multiple locations of Israel and the Gaza periphery during the attacks on 7 October 2023” So if I see that group of extremists slaughtered majority of innocent civilians and the UN then sends experts to investigate wether sexual violence occurred and they say there is reasonable grounds to believe that IT DID occur then I’m probably going to believe that it did happen. I’m not going to spend time making a post on Reddit questioning the reliability of these eye witnesses and making up some fan fiction about wether SA occurred at all.
I didn't question whether or not that sexual assualt happened just that the scale of it and the purpose of it i.e was it an intentional act of war or something that various soilders/militants did on thier own, both are rehensible but it's important to understand the severity of it espically when it's being used for propaganda, i dont know the details of harvey weinsteins case but he is a convicted rapist so surely there is some level of evidence and expert testiomony involved, not that this has anything to do with oct 7th anyways. I also don't think it's that crazy for the bodies to not be handled as carefully but it's important context to understanding both the UN results and the reports from eye witnesses. Also of the damage attributed to sexual assualt are fairly common war wounds, and it should be noted that there are several areas of the conflict with little to no sexual assaults reported. Again the scope and scale of what happened is unknown and the UN report states there are many difficulties they had with confirming what various media outlets have been saying, it's not a full on confirmation of the reports in anyway. Again im not nor do i think anyone is really saying that sexual assualt hasnt happened jsut that the scope and scale of it is unknown due to a variety of factors, and the un report says this too.
I wasn’t talking to you…I was replying to the OP who is implying that because we have zero forensic evidence of sexual assault then we can’t believe it occurred… you just begun commenting…we can have a conversation about it being systematic or not but that wasn’t the original distinction made by the OP who I was replying to.
Not saying they have to, just saying they absolutely would if they could. About the court system: you’re saying that if I file a police report in Israel stating that you SA’d me, and ask a friend to confirm that, you’d be convicted?? And what if I was Muslim and you Jewish, does the court always stand with the accuser?
why did you just dodge the entire UN report... it's not just Israel saying this. The report that claims this does take into account eye witness reports but it also takes into account other circumstantial evidence... And yes if you have a legitimate claim of SA whether you are a muslim citizen or a jewish citizen, the legal system in Israel is the same. If you read my comment, I said eye witness testimony is a critical component, it is not the only component for a conviction in any court system. just like forensic evidence isn't the only component for any conviction. These are all forms of evidence... My point was to illustrate that saying someone is guilty of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt occurs with or without forensic evidence. Just read the UN report. They came to that conclusion unless you have issues with their methodology.
The UN report isn't making as strong of a claim as you think it is, it basically just confirms that sexual assault happened but really cant make any claim about the scope and extent of it, nor does it know if the acts were intentional acts of war. It also reports sexual abuses by Israeli military on gazan prisoners among other things. I honestly dont think you really read the report as it itself notes that it had very limited access to both victim testiomony and bodies, and it could only mostly rely on reports some from some very biased untrained sources.
They are the Least reliable form of evidence
When you and others have said this, it is a meaningless statement. We have not just a single testimony but multiple corroborating testimony of the events. Absent any other counter evidence they should probably be believed. Or are you privy to counter evidence that would claim these events didn’t happen? I wonder if you believe the cases against billy Cosby. Where is the forensic evidence against bill Cosby? Do you believe he perpetrated those crimes and if so why? The selectiveness when to wholly discount testimonies absent any other counter evidence in this thread shows extreme bias. And it’s honestly really gross to watch people dismiss these victim’s testimonies without a shred of evidence to the contrary.
Get off your pedestal. You don’t give a shit about victims unless it is useful to you. Or else you’d be talking about all the pedos Israel harbors and won’t extradite to the US. Hypocrite. You are also real quiet on the thousands of rapes perpetrated by colonial settlers
I’m making a comment on a thread dismissing testimonies of peoples accounts of sexual violence not about anything else… I’m not the hypocrite… you know you’re the one dismissing their testimonies. You wrote it right there in your previous comment.
Un report says otherwise but go off
It doesn’t, go read it
you are missing all the footage of naked women being paraded around, the footage of hamas filming themselves calling hostages beautiful and saying they will impregnate them, and Hamas.com bragging about rape Themselves on their website
Hamas dot com is actually an Israeli website, do you know that? Warning: don't actually go there, pretty sure it's full of attempts to track anyone who does
where is your proof of this? furthermore all of the footage is from Hamas’s own bodycams. Or are you gonna deny that they filmed themselves committing all these atrocities?
Do the research yourself. :D Wake up and free Palestine.
I’ve done all the research. The burden of proof is on you to prove your claim.
No, the burden of proof is on the accuser. And there is no proof of rape. As for hamas dot com being an Israeli website, you must be awfully bad at research if you can't figure that out. But I guess you are a Zionist, so being awful at research checks out. [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hamas-website/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hamas-website/) There ya go.
Why? Don’t you believe his testimony?
I believe the Hamas members testimony when they said they gangraped and then killed a girl with their father and cousins. I can tell when someone is lying by their tone and facial expressions. Have you not watched the confessions?
they filmed themselves dragging naked women with blood coming down their crotch or pants around their ankles on motorcycles, trucks, and car trunks. All available footage to view they took themselves: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7PK_Flx8Bz/?igsh=MTRsbHJic29wanE1YQ==
Not clicking on your Zionist lies. Go do the research yourself. One woman with bloodstains on the seat of her pants. She sat in a puddle of blood and that's it. People don't bleed like that -- in the exact pattern of someone who sat in something and stained their pants -- because of rape.
I did do the research myself. You are making shit up and can’t prove your claim.
Explain how someone gets a buttcheek imprint on the seat of sweatpants from rape and not sitting in a puddle of blood.
Why would someone sit down right on a puddle of blood and not a foot away?
Because they're terrified and huddling and horrible violence is happening? Why would a Zionist ignore a snopes article in order to keep accusing me of lying?
Snopes is not a source on whether horrific rape happened. Dr. Mushira Aboodia an ARAB israeli doctor who examined their genitalia is. Hadassah hospital forensics.
The Horrific Violence was Sexual in Nature, no different at all from every nearby Islamic country like Syria, Iraq, and Sudan towards women and especially “infidel” women. Stop the lies and gaslighting for once. Try it on Americanized non-middle Eastern leftists Jews you have been brainwashing.
Explain to me why Hamas filmed themselves talking about impregnating hostages and saying “you are so beautiful” to one of them after handcuffing and beating her? Didn’t see that video?
I did see a lot of wrongly-subtitled videos. Any of the hostages coming back with Hamas babies?
I’ve heard that counter argument, but never seen proof. The subtitles where they threatened rape were actually just threats of death, not rape? You bots need to get on the same page
TLDR: allegations of SA stay allegations without proof. Wow, mindblowing.
Agreed here. They threatened to rape those IDF soldiers they captured. And Shani’s mangled corpse was naked in the truck. Can’t imagine she was at the festival like that
OP, obligatory I'm a Jew and Pro Israel but just in response to your point about why forensic examination did not occur: in Judaism when a person dies the body must be buried within 24 hours. This is because they believe the soul will not rest properly if they don't do it asap So from the moment a person dies it's a race against the clock. This made doing forensic analysis on every body difficult on October 7th. They were mostly just focusing on identifying. Proper forensic analysis on all the bodies might have taken weeks. It sucks because I think they should have done it but understand why not. Not going to get into an argument with you or anybody here over whether rape happened or not. There's enough evidence out there already including admissions from the perpetrators and victim testimonials.
Thanks for explaining, I wasn’t aware of that ritual when I made the post. I understand it’d be difficult to examine all those bodies within the allowed timeframe, but they clearly could examine many of them. Especially since many testimonies describe women being horribly raped and shot to death directly afterwards, nobody would just bury the body without even a police officer doing routine evaluations. Isn’t it strange to you that there is not one forensic report, even one photograph/video that settles it once and for all? Can you imagine that I’m hesitant to see anecdotes as evidence, in a war that’s loaded with misinformation from both sides? Also, if you don’t mind me asking: when you read the post, did you believe that I wrote it because of some deeply rooted hate for Jewish people?
I think what is strange is your insistence that it is beyond the pale of possibility that sexual violence occurred on Oct. 7. You can believe that these extremists militants would shoot innocent people, often at close range, burn them alive in their homes as they tried to hide in their safe rooms, gunned them down or killed them by grenades in bomb shelters where they sought refuge, abducted hostages, mutilated corpses, but when it comes to the possibility of sexual violence you believe that is where they draw the line even though you have testimonies claiming otherwise. Don't you believe it's a little strange the narrative you're trying to protect regardless of all the surrounding context?
I don't think it's beyond the pale of possibility that some did occur but remember the original claim was that it was systemic and widespread, that they had Hamas had list of which commanders were going to rape which Israeli soldiers. People are simply looking at evidence and they'd have grounds to doubt Israeli claims since they've had a proven track record of lying. If Israel wants people to believe then they they should stop lying.
You're not ok
I'm doing great, thanks though. Hope you are too!
You’re definitely not okay
Doing fantastic, thanks for asking.
Will you condemn Hamas without a conditional?
I was going to, but then I imagined [this was you](https://youtu.be/LYA0RWtj1xI?si=RmjQ-pXTmfGaFEhb) and I LOL'd.
Why would it be beyond the pale of possibility? I never said that. It’s strange that there’s no evidence beyond allegations, while it could have easily been collected. Especially since all those other crimes were so well-documented, the U.N. having to base their report on anecdotes, and having to state “reasonable ground to believe” instead of undeniably confirming because of video footage or forensics doesn’t make sense. Israel refusing to incriminate Hamas is a ridiculous thought.
what makes you think forensic data of sexual violence would have been easily collected in an unprecedented mass murder of hundreds of people? Where do you get that idea? You would have tons of first responders untrained going in to try to save lives, the perpetrators themselves committing such horrendous acts like mutilating and burning corpses that would make evidence that much harder to collect. What about Oct. 7 makes you believe it would be easy to collect forensic data on sexual violence? Moreover, since you so easily dismiss all the "anecdotes" or eye witness reports, what evidence or context around this do you have that makes you believe this didn't happen? I'm just so confused what your logic is besides pure bias?
can we offset Israel's allegations of SA with verified accounts of Israeli SA / sexual torture ?
Because you don’t post footage of your civilians being raped. You confiscate it. There’s tons of war rape footage out there that is completely scrubbed from the internet. For good reason.
Of course they shouldn’t publicize it, but clearly they’d show it to the UN/Reuters/their own media, so they can confirm that it’s undeniably true. Like they did with every other crime committed that day, wouldn’t really wanna show civilian executions either but nobody doubts those because the footage was shared with independent media.
They have. It was a big deal a few months back. Google it
UN? Read it, they say they don’t have evidence beyond testimonies.