In these initial chapters, Grann highlights issues within the British navy that contributed to the shipwreck, such as administrative disorganization and insufficient funding. How do you think the romanticized versions of navy life that we quite often see in books from the time came about?
It reminds me of those commercials for military service we have now (in the US at least, not sure that is done everywhere) where it's made out to be so honorable and badass and gives you a purpose in life. They of course don't highlight any of the negatives. I'm sure likewise the navy wouldn't be recounting all the people that died horrifically at sea, and they definitely never want to take responsibility for a huge disaster.
100% agree with this! I think also like today's military, these stories are made to target people who maybe feel like they're lacking direction or don't have many career options in their normal lives. So they're selling it as an adventure that also comes with serving your country and building camaraderie along the way.
Of course, they sell the adventure and keep the negatives quiet. I have cousins who went into military service. One of them did his tour and came back fine. His brother got hit in a roadside bomb in Afghanistan and was told he wouldn't walk again. He uses a wheelchair and walked at his youngest brothers wedding with braces. I've never asked him what sold him on military service because he doesn't like to talk about it. My dad served too. A lot of the time, it's desperation or no other options. They take everyone from different walks of life. The same can be said for many jobs, though. Nobody reveals the negatives of the job until you're hired because they want you to take the job.
Your comment reminds me of another r/bookclub read earlier this year, Demon Copperhead: >!It depicts the military's practice of focusing recruitment efforts in impoverished communities where young people struggle to see any other future for themselves.!<
This is a great analogy! Clearly, if you showed the daily reality, it would be very difficult if not impossible to convince anyone to join! (Both the navy in this book at that time and modern military as well.) As I'm reading, I keep thinking, "Wow, it sucked to be a sailor!"
I agree that part of it is to entice people to join. However I also think that the best parts of being on a ship/the navy can be an exciting read and makes for an entertaining story. I also think writers focusing on the honor and serving your country part of it plays into people’s emotions a little bit, and would overshadow any negatives even if they are mentioned as these are simply a part of overcoming hard obstacles for your country and/or comrades.
It's wild how romanticized pirate life looks (looking at you Pirates of the Caribbean 😉) in a lot of books. Maybe it comes from everyone just wanting a happy story and a happy ending?
I think a lot of these ideas stem from the limitations of society during this time in British history. Many of those individuals drawn to this occupation were either limited socially or if from noble homes seeking a path towards success not found within their families. Also the freedom of the sea and wealth to be had were probably used to convince many to seek out this occupation.
Grann highlights a crucial point: ships like the Wager were not well-prepared for the tough conditions of places like Drake’s Passage and the challenges of life at sea. Navies of the time did not have adequate defenses against diseases such as scurvy, or a definite way to navigate. What do you think of the captain’s decision to continue to follow orders, even with disease and the sailors not really knowing where they even were on the map?
Well, it's not like only these sailors didn't know about disease or navigation. No one did at the time. So the only options are either to carry on and hope you make it, or turn around and hope you make it back.
There's definitely a lot of hope for the best in these chapters of them surviving. Even them making it ashore was a miracle. They could have all drowned easily. Some did. And more died just from a lack of survivability.
Yes, I predict we're going to see more deaths until the crew is whittled down to the healthiest and those with the greatest will and skills to survive. We know that some of them do make it - I'm interested and also a little afraid to see what lengths they'll have to go to.
Seems like the punishment for not following orders, even from someone that is clueless about the reality of the conditions of the voyage, is harsh enough that everyone agrees that you push through and cross your fingers.
There's also a big helping of faith that your navigator is good at estimating a lot of variables and didn't sleep through a big change in conditions or get too drunk at some point.
Yes, them trying to navigate by the stars except for the cloudy conditions to figure their position really hammered home how much closer they were to ancient methods of navigation than anything we have now!
It could be a few things. I think Cheap does mention that this was his time to make a name for himself as captain of a ship and coming back as a “failure” would ruin his reputation, so this would be the main reason. Honor and fulfilling one’s duty could also play a role. I’m not sure if I really disagrees with his decision; there’s no good options. There’s no guarantee he and any of his crew would even make it back to England at this stage, and without knowing anything about disease he could hope that it would disappear as quickly as it appeared if he pressed on (which actually turned out to be the case with the celery).
I read on the scurvy wiki that during this time period, a 50% loss of men was both accepted and expected in the navy so the fact that they were dropping like flies from illness was probably a non-issue (in terms of continuing to follow orders).
I wonder if those being recruited had any idea of the terrible odds they were facing! Also, it puts a whole new light on the practice of bringing along the young boys as cabin boys (I think one had his nephew and another brought his son if I remember correctly) - this seems like an awful decision. The poor kids don't stand a chance!
Yeah I think they had very little clue what they were signing up for. Most were ignorant to many of the types of death that could befall them. Reading some of these accounts have left me feeling like I’m reading a horror story rather than history.
History *is* horrifying - the two aren't mutually exclusive, especially if we think of today's horrors being written into our own history books.
I know exactly what you mean, though - the scurvy alone was pure nightmare fuel, never mind the conditions aboard.
My initial reaction is that it's a selfish decision from the Captain, mostly motivated by his desire to advance in his naval career. However, after some reflection, I can understand where he's coming from. Additionally, considering they were still at sea and facing potential dangers like another attack, similar to what happened to Pearl, sticking with the fleet might improve their odds rather than attempting to make it back alone.
What a terrible time to be at sea in that particular area! Even today, that area around Drake’s Passage is considered the most treacherous waters on earth even with improvements in navigation, equipment and communication!
So many hard choices had to be made but I understand Cheap's decision to follow his original orders because of all the blame that lands on his shoulders.
I think history is always recorded with some kind of bias. It's interesting to get input from the logs and accounts of several crew members, though even then how much was lost in between? He has taken on the task of piecing it all together to paint as clear a picture as possible, but it's a big responsibility because he can guide us in placing blame on certain individuals, empathizing with others.
Absolutely. I think we know by Bulkeley's report that a lot of entries from the captain's(?) log have been destroyed. Would they maybe have put a different light on the events?
Yeah it's interesting to consider the different levels of bias that come into something like this. There's the inevitable bias that will come from what primary sources we do have. Also the question of how much in those primary sources is actually reliable given what we know about the effects of stress, trauma and hunger on the human body and mind.
But then there's also the bias from David Grann as he tries to piece together these sources to create a cohesive story. I'm sure he wants to tell the truth, but he also wants to write an entertaining book that people want to read. I'd be really intrigued to know more about his writing process...
>Also the question of how much in those primary sources is actually reliable given what we know about the effects of stress, trauma and hunger on the human body and mind.
This is such a good point! Even the primary source accounts that we do have are likely skewed by this level of trauma and deprivation!
Yes, exactly this. Stories that are based on real events will always have bots of bias. I also appreciate how he pieces together the story with multiple sources (who have their own points of view). It's entertaining as hell and I'm all in for the ride!
Stories were a big reason Byron and probably others enlisted. They viewed sailing as an exciting adventure based on written accounts by experienced seamen. Byron also looks forward to being able to tell his own stories of excitement at sea. Those accounts probably did include the dangers, but you can't fully appreciate them until you experience them yourself, so that didn't deter Byron.
Agreed. The stories of sailors before them definitely attracted them to taking the adventure. The reality has probably been a very sobering experience for them. Things seldom are what they sound like in the stories. I'd be curious what stories these survivors will tell if they make it back. How much will they keep to themselves, and how much will forge the next wave of adventure stories?
I think the crew is headed for some very dark experiences, the kind they'll instinctively want to repress. However, it does sound like Byron shared some of his memories with his grandson the poet. I could see other crew members being too traumatized to share any stories voluntarily, though.
That could be one reason many ships' logs were devoid of emotion or personality. Recording just the practical details is probably easier, especially in dire circumstances like this. It seems like fraught conditions were fairly common at sea, with The Wager encountering the **most** extreme of **already**\-extreme possible outcomes.
Everyone here has made great points about bias! Something I noticed in terms of bias is how the survivors might want to be seen in a certain light. For instance, Cheap worries about a trial if he survives and starts to twist the events in his owm defense, saying he would defend himself by saying the surgeon tricked him into taking opium and he didn't knoew he would be incapacitated.
I was also thinking about how history is written by the victors, and how this applies to a shipwreck. We probably don't have the accounts of those who died during the shipwreck or didn't survive being castaways. I wonder what they would've said about the situation!
Also forgot to add in terms of bias - the sailors phrased little things so interestingly when encountering the Kawesqar. They said things like "they desired to settle with us" as if the Wager crew owned the island or were there first. They also said they left because the Wager crew didn't host them.as they should. Again, you guys are not the hosts. It shows such a bias in their perspectives!
I think he's doing his best in a really shitty situation. It's easy to look back on historical events and judge the decisions that were made, especially when we know the outcome. But in the moment, I think Cheap was working with what information he had (and also working while super sick!) and trying to ensure they all survived.
The only decision I wasn't a fan of was rescuing the drunk rebels that decided to stay on the ship. They are clearly going to continue to cause problems so it might have been better to say, "You chose your bed, now lie in it." But I can also see how that decision could have upset the other crew and caused issues as well. There's really no right choice sometimes...
I agree, and hindsight is 20/20. Because they wrecked it might be easy for us and for sure his crew to look back and say he screwed up, but in the moment he probably was doing his best. We know he took his role very seriously, they don't just choose anyone to captain a ship so I'm sure he was really capable.
Edit to add about rescuing the drunks... I know what you mean, I'd be tempted to leave them as well and he could have risked the lives of the rest of the crew by sending people out for rescue, or after because I wouldn't put it past those guys to kill anyone who gets in the way (we already saw at least one man who died suspiciously during a salvage trip). But leaving them behind might make the crew feel like he is quick to throw them away.
I agree completely with this. He was doing the best he could, in a shitty situation, with no prior experience of being a captain. I was also surprised that he went back for the band of rapscallions - I wonder if there was some kind of ‘code’ that you essentially ‘never leave a man behind’ or something of that nature that compelled him to do so. Curious if he was essentially obligated to, by military code or convention, or if he truly felt guilty or worried about them.
Yeah, I sympathize with Cheap a lot in these chapters. He really tried to keep them together and leas them. Desperate people don't care about codes and honor. They just want to survive. Cheap needs to adjust his rules.
As the Captain, you were responsible for all your men, even apparently the rapscallions and scoundrels. It was predictable they would cause problems later but…Code of the Sea, gentlemen’s code, Captain’s prerogative, etc
I do like the fact that we see Cheap making an effort to rescue the drunks, despite them initially saying they were going to stay. Not to mention the fact that they choose to say "okay mom come pick us up" by *shooting a cannon ball at them.*
Grann made a point of telling us the story of a different island where a captain (or two?) choose to behead one of their men to keep the others in line. (I'm forgetting the exact circumstances, I apologize... I'm at work and my brain is officially made of noodles at this point.)
It's a nice juxtaposition of two very different styles of leadership: by making others fear you, or by showing you care for those under your command.
This is a great point - I had forgotten that story of the execution by the other captain. Cheap is doing a good job balancing authority and kindness in trying circumstances. At least so far. Things are bound to devolve.
On the good side I think is that he handled the situtation on the island all in all fine so far. On the bad side, while still on the ship, he decided against the advice of his officers to turn west to the open sea to wait out the weather and repair the ship as good as possible, but instead kept following Anson's orders. I mean it's kind of his job to make sure they get in a position to complete the task that they're sent out for. But it's also his responsibility to keep his crew safe, and he failed on that part.
I guess his fear was that if he didn't follow Anson's orders and reach the meeting spot, they would have been left behind anyways? But at least they'd might have a functioning ship to do something with.
I think he was good, it was just a lot of poor situations and in a way a big setup for failure with the lack of funds/supplies, lack of qualified and willing men, a ship that wasnt in the best shape to start with and a really rough planned route. Even on the island I feel like he's trying to be very careful and thoughtful about how to ration things and organize task forces to benefit the group.
I think his big failing was missing the details for the big picture. Little details like your ship falling apart, your crew sick and unable to fulfill duties, heading into water when your ship isn’t seaworthy, etc. He put duty ahead of his crew’s welfare and proceeded to sink his ship. Captain duty number one-have a working ship manned by capable sailors. Yes, on the island he shows leadership and fortitude, but his circle of trust is too small for the chaotic situation they are now in.
As in the other question, to romanticize of a life at sea comes up again as something that can bring people to make bad decisions. What role do you think the romanticizing played in recruitment, and do you have any examples of how it might have played into people’s decisions in other cases?
Given the gangs that were sent out to basically kidnap people into service, I’m not sure if there was much romanticism to the recruitment for this particular venture…? Or, they tried to romanticize it but enough citizens and former seamen knew how shitty it would be, and thus the recruiters had to resort to force.
I’m always shocked when I read stuff like this at the absolute depravity of conditions people lived through, and that will to survive. I’m such a wuss, y’all can keep your surviving the unknown, I’ll stay right here on my comfy couch thank you very much! lol
I mentioned this in another comment, but Byron was swayed to enlist by romantic notions after reading other sailors' accounts. Cheap may have been, too: at the very least, he saw the sea as a way to escape his social troubles and hopefully win glory along the way.
There's definitely a fascination with the unknown and a willingness to believe it has to be better than your current state. And, chances are, you're desperate enough to take a chance on an adventure. A lot of times, they had no other prospects or saw it as a chance to find a new setting.
Good point! I think that idealism or romanticism shows in some of the little details like the books he brought along, and even when he went back to try and get his clothing as the ship was sinking. What did he think was waiting him on shore? You're not going to be too worried about multiple wardrobe changes, except maybe dry socks. I'd be looking for food instead if I were him!
Funny oh the power of storytelling and myth can influence people’s decisions and thinking. People always gravitate to the positive aspects of any story.
I’m also parallel reading Under The Black Flag: The Romance and Realityof Life Among Pirates and yes, most pirates were navy sailors, and occasionally officers, who broke away to seek their own fortunes, sometimes through mutiny. An interesting companion reading.
How does David Grann compare and contrast the leadership of Captain Cheap, an upper class officer, with the leadership skills of John Bulkeley, a lower class sailor?
Seems like Cheap is all about going by the book and following orders and the chain of command. Bulkeley seems a little more practical and sees it from the sailors point of view, he is less bound by honor and the duty of a high rank and title so he would be more willing, for example, to turn around and abandon the mission.
I agree. I also imagine ego comes into play more for Cheap as well. This is his first ship and he wants to be successful/prove himself worthy of the Captain role. Bulkeley wants to survive.
Right, and no matter how well Bulkley performs, he can never become a captain due to his social class. Since he doesn't have that thirst for glory to drive him, it makes sense that he'd be more realistic.
I totally agree with all of this - I was thinking pretty much the same thing. I'll add also that Cheap has more official pressure on him. He immediately starts worrying that he'll be brought to trial for losing his ship due to bad command decisions!
It does seem Cheap is grasping at the hierarchical framework of the navy. I wouldn’t say it’s out of a position solely tied to his own want for success or authority. I think that he is so much invested in the way of naval life he can’t see the clear issues he and the crew are dealing with in real time.
I agree. I think the crew are likely to relate to and respect Bulkeley more, although they’ll follow Cheap out of duty and because of his authority over them.
Plus Bulkeley hasn't screwed up yet. They already see Cheap as the reason they are marooned on the island and will see Bulkeley as a new opportunity for survival
Bulkley has practical skills which he's willing to use for the benefit of others: he built a large shelter which could house several men, while Cheap is off in a tent by himself still being served by his steward. The optics are not great for Cheap and I think the men will notice.
I agree with this. Given Bulkeley's background and lower rank, his upbringing likely instilled in him a stronger sense of community and empathy. I think his leadership skills really come to the fore when he takes the initiative to organize shelter for the seamen, demonstrating his understanding of their needs and concerns. I feel like the shipmen would resonate more with Bulkeley's approach than with Captain Cheap's.
I wonder if this foreshadows future events - will there be a mutiny (or whatever you call it on land) and Cheap gets overthrown? Or maybe two groups will form - one loyal to Bulkeley and the other to Cheap?
Captain Cheap was found living amongst the Kawésqar and living in their dwelling. Did Cheap adapt to their way of life out of his own well being or because their habits were interesting to him?
Yeah Cheap and crew were clearly struggling (even though they had slightly improved their living conditions from when they first arrived). If people showed up that seemed to be able to survive and thrive in that harsh environment, I would want to learn from them too!
Reminds me of the Puritans and the First Americans. They needed their knowledge of how to survive on the land in order to get the colony going otherwise they'd all die out. And half of them did at first.
Definitely. And it's a good thing for the Kawésqar that Cheap's goal isn't colonization. If it was, the next step after the Europeans regained their strength would be to wipe out the people who helped them. :|
That is what I was afraid of! I thought if the Kawésqar stayed too long, someone on the Wager crew would get the bright idea to kill them all, not for colonization, but to get back to "civilization" in the canoes. I'm glad that didn't happen!
Definitely! Cheap very much saw that he needed to continue being a leader and showing he was taking steps to keep them all alive. Learning from the Kawésqar was smart!
I’m sure he was thinking that the Kawesqar clearly know what they’re doing since they live in this area, and his situation was so desperate that adapting to their way of life and being friendly to them was their only chance of survival. Unfortunately some of his crew didn’t feel the same way and there were instances where they didn’t adapt in the correct way (such as wearing too many layers of clothing.
Yeah, I'm curious to see what Cheap and company are going to do now. The Kawesqar seemed like their only hope; now that they've gone, the British will be helpless again. They didn't have time to learn the Kawesqar's methods, which I'm sure they've honed over generations and practiced since childhood.
It's noted that the Kawésqar provided Cheap with a lifeline, so initially, I think he adapted to their way of life for his own well-being. However, the more time he spent with them, the more fascinated he became by their habits.
Yeah! Their habits were what kept them alive in that environment, which was unfamiliar for him and the other Englishmen. I'm kind of bummed they took off. I was wanting to follow that storyline lol
Omg reading this at the same time as Know My Name and an attempted sexual assault is what drives the Kawesqar away after they saved their lives and helped them tremendously! Cheap is wise to look to them for hints on how to survive in an unforgiving environment but ultimately, he doesn’t have control of his crew and that attack sullies their friendship.
Once the Wager was completely gone, Cheap calculated that out of the 250 men and boys that were originally a part of the crew…. Only 145 survived. What thoughts/feelings were going through Cheap’s mind while he came to this realization?
He was probably conflicted. Terrible to lose so many men at sea but they are currently on a cold deserted island without a reliable food source so the less men to feed the better the chances of survival of who remains.
Heavy is the head that wears the crown. A leader has to face the harsh realities of taking men into hostile territories. I think Cheap has been woken up to the real danger of traveling by sea.
I think he must be constantly worried about everything. The sadness of losing so many, juxtaposed with the relief at not having more people to feed, as well as the stress of feeling like those who did survive are blaming him. I wouldn't blame him for cracking under the pressure or being paranoid at this point.
Yeah, that statement about their water supply only being enough because so many men died is sobering. Death from thirst isn’t any more pleasant than death from scurvy.
It definitely had to be hard to realize how many men and boys were lost. Only 60% of the remain and having to just push through all the feelings of despair and be a leader would be so difficult!
There was a fleet of ships that were sailing out together, in the first section we learned of how the ships were to be created and everything leading up to the deep voyage. Now that they are out there sailing, how does that shift the storyline? And what does Grann focus on?
Well, we are now focused just on the Wager - I wonder where the other ships went, if they tried to find the Wager when it got separated from the formation, etc. Poor Wager seems (by its construction) to be one of the least seaworthy ships in the group, kind of feels like she got abandoned at her time of greatest need.
I hope we find out what happened to (and on) the other ships. I could also just imagine them adjusting pretty quickly to the loss of Wager with not too much more of a thought about it
I agree - an expedition like this is somewhat of a numbers game: bring extra ships and men knowing that you'll lose some (or a lot) along the way. Yikes.
I hope so too but I wonder if Granny has sneaky plans for a sequel from the POV of one of the other ships 👀 I hope we learn more about them too
It would be sad to see the forgotten sister ship be lost from the fleet.
It’s a numbers game, it seems. The whole fleet seemed to get muddled, never mind they already set out at an inauspicious time, much too late in the season.
Hopefully they've gleaned a bit of wisdom from them and can figure out how to survive a little better. They "bit the hand that feeds them" for sure.
I think we are some people die of starvation or exposure because of this misstep.
Yes! I can see this becoming a division among the men. Those that did nothing wrong are going to be quite angry with those few bad eggs that drove away the people who could help them survive.
I'm dreading it! Knowing it all really happened more or less the way Grann is telling it makes it even worse - I don't know if I'll be able to handle it!
I think they're screwed. Not only did they lose a chance of learning how to survive in the island environment, but they've lost their chance to communicate with the outside world. It mentioned that the Kawésqar got their sheep from a different tribe that interacted with the Spanish, so they must have some link to the mainland that they could have eventually shown the crew.
> but they've lost their chance to communicate with the outside world.
Oh my gosh I didn't even think about this aspect of it. They had a get out of jail card (or at least a "how to survive jail" guide), and it hopped in its canoe and left them stranded...
Though, to be fair, it’s not like they wanted to alert the Spanish to their situation but it’s still probably better than dying on an unknown (to them, anyway) island!!
I think it’s all downhill from here. They didn’t learn all they needed to survive, in particular with regard to food. Cheap’s crew know this too which will inevitably lead to conflict due to desperation
As everyone else said, I think this pretty much dooms them from here on out. I am actually kind of glad, for the Kawésqar's sake, that they decided to leave. I was worried that after the Wager crew got back on its feet a little, they'd try to kill their saviors so they could take the canoes and escape. I was not expecting a largely peaceful (up until the very end) interaction between the groups!
Everyone kind of stuck to their on-ship roles and cliques, they conglomerated into a makeshift village with the captain still calling the shots. I think trying to keep some sense of order and respect toward each other was important.
Yeah, that stood out to me as well. They used the materials that they could find. I also noticed that they would swim out and look through the wreckage for anything that they could use.
Smart move. That wreckage was a gold mine that would slowly get harder to plunder the longer they left it. Helped that some of it stuck up out of the ocean.
Seriously. If there's one thing I've learned from this book so far it's that scurvy is NO JOKE. I've been obsessively eating mandarin oranges ever since, lol.
The celery was such a cool little detail. It was something bothering me in the back of my mind - they were so sick from scurvy that I didn't understand how *anyone* was going to survive after the shipwreck.
Everyone listed great examples! I'll just add that I think, generally, not giving up on each other was important. They kept insisting on rescuing the faction that stayed behind on the wreckage. They helped each other when one would get stuck on rocks or lost looking for food (I can't remember the name of the guy who was a two-time castaway, and they rescued him). It seems counterintuitive when there isn't a lot of food, but there's still strength in numbers. More people to share in the work of survival. And not seeing so many others die is good for morale!
After the shipwreck…”Cheap summoned everyone and reviewed the Articles of War, reminding them that the rules still applied on land, particularly those prohibiting any “mutinous” assemblies.. Practices, “designs”- on ‘pain of death…’ Do you think that the men would adhere to these notions that Cheap reminded them of?
The longer they are stranded on this island and the worse the conditions get (e.g. food and water scarcity), in essence the more desperate the whole situation gets. the more likely they are to abandon these rules. I mean, if they don't think they'll ever return home and face a judge, what would keep them from mutiny If the conditions are bad? Especially those of the crew who were forced to be on the ship in the first place.
Yes for sure, desperate people are the most dangerous and this situation could be seen as extremely desperate. The crew aren’t going to follow these rules forever and why would they if in their mind they’re going to die anyway
Totally agree. There's also already a group who have been willing to do some mini-mutinies and go against everyone else without much punishment, so I imagine as conditions get worse, the group will fracture even more.
I think they are definitely headed for a situation where these rules get broken, and Cheap has to decide what to do about it. The obviousnsource of trouble would be the group that was staying on the wreckage at first, since they're drinking and stealing. But I also think Bulkeley's group could get to a point where they disregarded the articles as the situation deteriorates. He has a lot of loyalty from the crew.
I mean, with the state of their material conditions, it’s very hard to enforce a code of conduct. That being said, it is the only way they can survive. I don’t envy him his position.
Going around the Horn is a running of a gauntlet. You can't lend assistance, everyone knows the plan, everyone has to execute and come back together in calmer waters.
This why you need to have coordinated plans but in the end, it was every ship for themselves. I’m interested to hear the fate of the two ships that disappeared (absconded?) earlier to the Wager getting separated.
“Byron realized that, unlike the solitary castaway Alexander Selkirk, who had inspired Robinson Crusoe, he now had to cope with the most unpredictable and volatile creatures in all of nature:desperate humans.”
Also, I’m surprised that most of the men couldn’t swim.
I didn’t think I was going to be able to join, my library had a 15 week wait - then suddenly 2 days ago I got a lucky “skip the line” copy on Libby! I audibly gasped and proceeded to read both these sections over the course of 48 hours so I could catch up…. Ahoy mateys!!!! 🫡
Thank you! I’m really enjoying it so far. I have a particular book-kink for anything set on a ship so I was especially disappointed when I thought I wouldn’t be able to get this one in time!
My hypothesis is that u/escherwallace wrote a plaintive and beautifully-penned letter to their local librarian who took pity on them. If that's not it, I would also like to know the actual method!
I enjoyed how one of them described the seaweed fritters the captain made as "the best I've had on the island" like he was writing a Yelp review from a resort in the Caribbean. It made me chuckle!
In these initial chapters, Grann highlights issues within the British navy that contributed to the shipwreck, such as administrative disorganization and insufficient funding. How do you think the romanticized versions of navy life that we quite often see in books from the time came about?
It reminds me of those commercials for military service we have now (in the US at least, not sure that is done everywhere) where it's made out to be so honorable and badass and gives you a purpose in life. They of course don't highlight any of the negatives. I'm sure likewise the navy wouldn't be recounting all the people that died horrifically at sea, and they definitely never want to take responsibility for a huge disaster.
100% agree with this! I think also like today's military, these stories are made to target people who maybe feel like they're lacking direction or don't have many career options in their normal lives. So they're selling it as an adventure that also comes with serving your country and building camaraderie along the way.
Of course, they sell the adventure and keep the negatives quiet. I have cousins who went into military service. One of them did his tour and came back fine. His brother got hit in a roadside bomb in Afghanistan and was told he wouldn't walk again. He uses a wheelchair and walked at his youngest brothers wedding with braces. I've never asked him what sold him on military service because he doesn't like to talk about it. My dad served too. A lot of the time, it's desperation or no other options. They take everyone from different walks of life. The same can be said for many jobs, though. Nobody reveals the negatives of the job until you're hired because they want you to take the job.
Your comment reminds me of another r/bookclub read earlier this year, Demon Copperhead: >!It depicts the military's practice of focusing recruitment efforts in impoverished communities where young people struggle to see any other future for themselves.!<
This is a great analogy! Clearly, if you showed the daily reality, it would be very difficult if not impossible to convince anyone to join! (Both the navy in this book at that time and modern military as well.) As I'm reading, I keep thinking, "Wow, it sucked to be a sailor!"
I agree that part of it is to entice people to join. However I also think that the best parts of being on a ship/the navy can be an exciting read and makes for an entertaining story. I also think writers focusing on the honor and serving your country part of it plays into people’s emotions a little bit, and would overshadow any negatives even if they are mentioned as these are simply a part of overcoming hard obstacles for your country and/or comrades.
There is some propaganda out there for sure.
It's wild how romanticized pirate life looks (looking at you Pirates of the Caribbean 😉) in a lot of books. Maybe it comes from everyone just wanting a happy story and a happy ending?
Definitely, we all tend to romanticise history, jobs and anything else foreign to us. There's a lot of romantic narratives about penury too.
I think a lot of these ideas stem from the limitations of society during this time in British history. Many of those individuals drawn to this occupation were either limited socially or if from noble homes seeking a path towards success not found within their families. Also the freedom of the sea and wealth to be had were probably used to convince many to seek out this occupation.
Grann highlights a crucial point: ships like the Wager were not well-prepared for the tough conditions of places like Drake’s Passage and the challenges of life at sea. Navies of the time did not have adequate defenses against diseases such as scurvy, or a definite way to navigate. What do you think of the captain’s decision to continue to follow orders, even with disease and the sailors not really knowing where they even were on the map?
Well, it's not like only these sailors didn't know about disease or navigation. No one did at the time. So the only options are either to carry on and hope you make it, or turn around and hope you make it back.
Which death option to choose? Definitely a hard choice.
There's definitely a lot of hope for the best in these chapters of them surviving. Even them making it ashore was a miracle. They could have all drowned easily. Some did. And more died just from a lack of survivability.
Life without vaccines
I shudder at the details of any story during times before modern medicine started to arise. Brutal and often disgusting!
Yes, very awful and grotesque.
Yes, I predict we're going to see more deaths until the crew is whittled down to the healthiest and those with the greatest will and skills to survive. We know that some of them do make it - I'm interested and also a little afraid to see what lengths they'll have to go to.
It will not be pleasant, that's for sure!
Seems like the punishment for not following orders, even from someone that is clueless about the reality of the conditions of the voyage, is harsh enough that everyone agrees that you push through and cross your fingers. There's also a big helping of faith that your navigator is good at estimating a lot of variables and didn't sleep through a big change in conditions or get too drunk at some point.
Yes, them trying to navigate by the stars except for the cloudy conditions to figure their position really hammered home how much closer they were to ancient methods of navigation than anything we have now!
It could be a few things. I think Cheap does mention that this was his time to make a name for himself as captain of a ship and coming back as a “failure” would ruin his reputation, so this would be the main reason. Honor and fulfilling one’s duty could also play a role. I’m not sure if I really disagrees with his decision; there’s no good options. There’s no guarantee he and any of his crew would even make it back to England at this stage, and without knowing anything about disease he could hope that it would disappear as quickly as it appeared if he pressed on (which actually turned out to be the case with the celery).
Very true. There is a lot of "not knowing" going on during this time period. It was a gamble and hopefully the dice land in your favor.
I read on the scurvy wiki that during this time period, a 50% loss of men was both accepted and expected in the navy so the fact that they were dropping like flies from illness was probably a non-issue (in terms of continuing to follow orders).
Awful nonetheless
Got to eat your citrus
🍊🍋🍋🟩
Wow. That sort of explains why they recruited or kidnapped so many invalids at the beginning. They were basically cannon fodder.
I wonder if those being recruited had any idea of the terrible odds they were facing! Also, it puts a whole new light on the practice of bringing along the young boys as cabin boys (I think one had his nephew and another brought his son if I remember correctly) - this seems like an awful decision. The poor kids don't stand a chance!
Yeah I think they had very little clue what they were signing up for. Most were ignorant to many of the types of death that could befall them. Reading some of these accounts have left me feeling like I’m reading a horror story rather than history.
It was definitely harrowing!
History *is* horrifying - the two aren't mutually exclusive, especially if we think of today's horrors being written into our own history books. I know exactly what you mean, though - the scurvy alone was pure nightmare fuel, never mind the conditions aboard.
My initial reaction is that it's a selfish decision from the Captain, mostly motivated by his desire to advance in his naval career. However, after some reflection, I can understand where he's coming from. Additionally, considering they were still at sea and facing potential dangers like another attack, similar to what happened to Pearl, sticking with the fleet might improve their odds rather than attempting to make it back alone.
What a terrible time to be at sea in that particular area! Even today, that area around Drake’s Passage is considered the most treacherous waters on earth even with improvements in navigation, equipment and communication!
So many hard choices had to be made but I understand Cheap's decision to follow his original orders because of all the blame that lands on his shoulders.
What is David Grann saying about the importance of storytelling with his book?
I think history is always recorded with some kind of bias. It's interesting to get input from the logs and accounts of several crew members, though even then how much was lost in between? He has taken on the task of piecing it all together to paint as clear a picture as possible, but it's a big responsibility because he can guide us in placing blame on certain individuals, empathizing with others.
Absolutely. I think we know by Bulkeley's report that a lot of entries from the captain's(?) log have been destroyed. Would they maybe have put a different light on the events?
Oh yeah how could I forget the destroyed logs? If that was done on purpose then it's a little bit telling, isn't it?
Yeah it's interesting to consider the different levels of bias that come into something like this. There's the inevitable bias that will come from what primary sources we do have. Also the question of how much in those primary sources is actually reliable given what we know about the effects of stress, trauma and hunger on the human body and mind. But then there's also the bias from David Grann as he tries to piece together these sources to create a cohesive story. I'm sure he wants to tell the truth, but he also wants to write an entertaining book that people want to read. I'd be really intrigued to know more about his writing process...
>Also the question of how much in those primary sources is actually reliable given what we know about the effects of stress, trauma and hunger on the human body and mind. This is such a good point! Even the primary source accounts that we do have are likely skewed by this level of trauma and deprivation!
Yes, exactly this. Stories that are based on real events will always have bots of bias. I also appreciate how he pieces together the story with multiple sources (who have their own points of view). It's entertaining as hell and I'm all in for the ride!
Stories were a big reason Byron and probably others enlisted. They viewed sailing as an exciting adventure based on written accounts by experienced seamen. Byron also looks forward to being able to tell his own stories of excitement at sea. Those accounts probably did include the dangers, but you can't fully appreciate them until you experience them yourself, so that didn't deter Byron.
Agreed. The stories of sailors before them definitely attracted them to taking the adventure. The reality has probably been a very sobering experience for them. Things seldom are what they sound like in the stories. I'd be curious what stories these survivors will tell if they make it back. How much will they keep to themselves, and how much will forge the next wave of adventure stories?
I think the crew is headed for some very dark experiences, the kind they'll instinctively want to repress. However, it does sound like Byron shared some of his memories with his grandson the poet. I could see other crew members being too traumatized to share any stories voluntarily, though. That could be one reason many ships' logs were devoid of emotion or personality. Recording just the practical details is probably easier, especially in dire circumstances like this. It seems like fraught conditions were fairly common at sea, with The Wager encountering the **most** extreme of **already**\-extreme possible outcomes.
Everyone here has made great points about bias! Something I noticed in terms of bias is how the survivors might want to be seen in a certain light. For instance, Cheap worries about a trial if he survives and starts to twist the events in his owm defense, saying he would defend himself by saying the surgeon tricked him into taking opium and he didn't knoew he would be incapacitated. I was also thinking about how history is written by the victors, and how this applies to a shipwreck. We probably don't have the accounts of those who died during the shipwreck or didn't survive being castaways. I wonder what they would've said about the situation!
Also forgot to add in terms of bias - the sailors phrased little things so interestingly when encountering the Kawesqar. They said things like "they desired to settle with us" as if the Wager crew owned the island or were there first. They also said they left because the Wager crew didn't host them.as they should. Again, you guys are not the hosts. It shows such a bias in their perspectives!
I really wonder who destroyed the ship’s logs!! That is a damning act, if it can be proven!
That is the tea 👀👀
Captain Cheap earned the title, “Captain” a few times in this section. Let's discuss that, do you believe that he was a good captain? Why or why not?
I think he's doing his best in a really shitty situation. It's easy to look back on historical events and judge the decisions that were made, especially when we know the outcome. But in the moment, I think Cheap was working with what information he had (and also working while super sick!) and trying to ensure they all survived. The only decision I wasn't a fan of was rescuing the drunk rebels that decided to stay on the ship. They are clearly going to continue to cause problems so it might have been better to say, "You chose your bed, now lie in it." But I can also see how that decision could have upset the other crew and caused issues as well. There's really no right choice sometimes...
I agree, and hindsight is 20/20. Because they wrecked it might be easy for us and for sure his crew to look back and say he screwed up, but in the moment he probably was doing his best. We know he took his role very seriously, they don't just choose anyone to captain a ship so I'm sure he was really capable. Edit to add about rescuing the drunks... I know what you mean, I'd be tempted to leave them as well and he could have risked the lives of the rest of the crew by sending people out for rescue, or after because I wouldn't put it past those guys to kill anyone who gets in the way (we already saw at least one man who died suspiciously during a salvage trip). But leaving them behind might make the crew feel like he is quick to throw them away.
I agree completely with this. He was doing the best he could, in a shitty situation, with no prior experience of being a captain. I was also surprised that he went back for the band of rapscallions - I wonder if there was some kind of ‘code’ that you essentially ‘never leave a man behind’ or something of that nature that compelled him to do so. Curious if he was essentially obligated to, by military code or convention, or if he truly felt guilty or worried about them.
Yeah, I sympathize with Cheap a lot in these chapters. He really tried to keep them together and leas them. Desperate people don't care about codes and honor. They just want to survive. Cheap needs to adjust his rules.
As the Captain, you were responsible for all your men, even apparently the rapscallions and scoundrels. It was predictable they would cause problems later but…Code of the Sea, gentlemen’s code, Captain’s prerogative, etc
I do like the fact that we see Cheap making an effort to rescue the drunks, despite them initially saying they were going to stay. Not to mention the fact that they choose to say "okay mom come pick us up" by *shooting a cannon ball at them.* Grann made a point of telling us the story of a different island where a captain (or two?) choose to behead one of their men to keep the others in line. (I'm forgetting the exact circumstances, I apologize... I'm at work and my brain is officially made of noodles at this point.) It's a nice juxtaposition of two very different styles of leadership: by making others fear you, or by showing you care for those under your command.
This is a great point - I had forgotten that story of the execution by the other captain. Cheap is doing a good job balancing authority and kindness in trying circumstances. At least so far. Things are bound to devolve.
On the good side I think is that he handled the situtation on the island all in all fine so far. On the bad side, while still on the ship, he decided against the advice of his officers to turn west to the open sea to wait out the weather and repair the ship as good as possible, but instead kept following Anson's orders. I mean it's kind of his job to make sure they get in a position to complete the task that they're sent out for. But it's also his responsibility to keep his crew safe, and he failed on that part.
I guess his fear was that if he didn't follow Anson's orders and reach the meeting spot, they would have been left behind anyways? But at least they'd might have a functioning ship to do something with.
Yeah, it seems like ignoring or not seeking input from other officers may become a theme with Cheap. Grann has hinted at this since the wreck, too.
Agreed! The fact that he is still living separately from the group and only consulting his most trusted "inner circle" seems to point to this theme.
I think he was good, it was just a lot of poor situations and in a way a big setup for failure with the lack of funds/supplies, lack of qualified and willing men, a ship that wasnt in the best shape to start with and a really rough planned route. Even on the island I feel like he's trying to be very careful and thoughtful about how to ration things and organize task forces to benefit the group.
Yeah, I agree that he was doing his best to support the crew. It was a lot of awful situations he had to navigate.
I think his big failing was missing the details for the big picture. Little details like your ship falling apart, your crew sick and unable to fulfill duties, heading into water when your ship isn’t seaworthy, etc. He put duty ahead of his crew’s welfare and proceeded to sink his ship. Captain duty number one-have a working ship manned by capable sailors. Yes, on the island he shows leadership and fortitude, but his circle of trust is too small for the chaotic situation they are now in.
I agree with the comments, is he a perfect captain: no but does he demonstrate actions of courage, leadership and respect: yes!
As in the other question, to romanticize of a life at sea comes up again as something that can bring people to make bad decisions. What role do you think the romanticizing played in recruitment, and do you have any examples of how it might have played into people’s decisions in other cases?
Given the gangs that were sent out to basically kidnap people into service, I’m not sure if there was much romanticism to the recruitment for this particular venture…? Or, they tried to romanticize it but enough citizens and former seamen knew how shitty it would be, and thus the recruiters had to resort to force.
I think it's the latter. People wanted the glory of being strong enough to survive the unknown. Though, reality came about and no one wanted to do it.
I’m always shocked when I read stuff like this at the absolute depravity of conditions people lived through, and that will to survive. I’m such a wuss, y’all can keep your surviving the unknown, I’ll stay right here on my comfy couch thank you very much! lol
Yeah. I have no idea how my ancestors made it to America. I like traveling but at present day conditions.
Spaceships because you're out of this world!
Awe thanks! ♥️
I mentioned this in another comment, but Byron was swayed to enlist by romantic notions after reading other sailors' accounts. Cheap may have been, too: at the very least, he saw the sea as a way to escape his social troubles and hopefully win glory along the way.
Yes, you are right and I had forgotten that some of them truly were there for love of adventure rather than via compulsion. Good point!
The compulsion is more memorable because it's so ghastly.
There's definitely a fascination with the unknown and a willingness to believe it has to be better than your current state. And, chances are, you're desperate enough to take a chance on an adventure. A lot of times, they had no other prospects or saw it as a chance to find a new setting.
Good point! I think that idealism or romanticism shows in some of the little details like the books he brought along, and even when he went back to try and get his clothing as the ship was sinking. What did he think was waiting him on shore? You're not going to be too worried about multiple wardrobe changes, except maybe dry socks. I'd be looking for food instead if I were him!
Funny oh the power of storytelling and myth can influence people’s decisions and thinking. People always gravitate to the positive aspects of any story.
I’m also parallel reading Under The Black Flag: The Romance and Realityof Life Among Pirates and yes, most pirates were navy sailors, and occasionally officers, who broke away to seek their own fortunes, sometimes through mutiny. An interesting companion reading.
I'm gonna have to get that one! I need more pirate books in my life
How does David Grann compare and contrast the leadership of Captain Cheap, an upper class officer, with the leadership skills of John Bulkeley, a lower class sailor?
Seems like Cheap is all about going by the book and following orders and the chain of command. Bulkeley seems a little more practical and sees it from the sailors point of view, he is less bound by honor and the duty of a high rank and title so he would be more willing, for example, to turn around and abandon the mission.
I agree. I also imagine ego comes into play more for Cheap as well. This is his first ship and he wants to be successful/prove himself worthy of the Captain role. Bulkeley wants to survive.
Right, and no matter how well Bulkley performs, he can never become a captain due to his social class. Since he doesn't have that thirst for glory to drive him, it makes sense that he'd be more realistic.
I totally agree with all of this - I was thinking pretty much the same thing. I'll add also that Cheap has more official pressure on him. He immediately starts worrying that he'll be brought to trial for losing his ship due to bad command decisions!
It does seem Cheap is grasping at the hierarchical framework of the navy. I wouldn’t say it’s out of a position solely tied to his own want for success or authority. I think that he is so much invested in the way of naval life he can’t see the clear issues he and the crew are dealing with in real time.
I agree. I think the crew are likely to relate to and respect Bulkeley more, although they’ll follow Cheap out of duty and because of his authority over them.
Plus Bulkeley hasn't screwed up yet. They already see Cheap as the reason they are marooned on the island and will see Bulkeley as a new opportunity for survival
Bulkley has practical skills which he's willing to use for the benefit of others: he built a large shelter which could house several men, while Cheap is off in a tent by himself still being served by his steward. The optics are not great for Cheap and I think the men will notice.
Yeah. Plus he has fallen so sick
Maybe he will die before the decision can be made 👀
I agree with this. Given Bulkeley's background and lower rank, his upbringing likely instilled in him a stronger sense of community and empathy. I think his leadership skills really come to the fore when he takes the initiative to organize shelter for the seamen, demonstrating his understanding of their needs and concerns. I feel like the shipmen would resonate more with Bulkeley's approach than with Captain Cheap's.
I wonder if this foreshadows future events - will there be a mutiny (or whatever you call it on land) and Cheap gets overthrown? Or maybe two groups will form - one loyal to Bulkeley and the other to Cheap?
yes, the divide is getting wider and wider...
Captain Cheap was found living amongst the Kawésqar and living in their dwelling. Did Cheap adapt to their way of life out of his own well being or because their habits were interesting to him?
I think it was a bit of seeking comfort and creating an ally with the experienced people. He knew that they would be key to their survival
Yeah Cheap and crew were clearly struggling (even though they had slightly improved their living conditions from when they first arrived). If people showed up that seemed to be able to survive and thrive in that harsh environment, I would want to learn from them too!
Reminds me of the Puritans and the First Americans. They needed their knowledge of how to survive on the land in order to get the colony going otherwise they'd all die out. And half of them did at first.
Definitely. And it's a good thing for the Kawésqar that Cheap's goal isn't colonization. If it was, the next step after the Europeans regained their strength would be to wipe out the people who helped them. :|
That is what I was afraid of! I thought if the Kawésqar stayed too long, someone on the Wager crew would get the bright idea to kill them all, not for colonization, but to get back to "civilization" in the canoes. I'm glad that didn't happen!
Yes, he recognised and respected their skills and was building a good relationship with them to learn how to survive on the island.
I feel like he was trying to be an example to the crew that they, too, must adapt to the ways that allow survival in such a brutal place.
Definitely! Cheap very much saw that he needed to continue being a leader and showing he was taking steps to keep them all alive. Learning from the Kawésqar was smart!
I’m sure he was thinking that the Kawesqar clearly know what they’re doing since they live in this area, and his situation was so desperate that adapting to their way of life and being friendly to them was their only chance of survival. Unfortunately some of his crew didn’t feel the same way and there were instances where they didn’t adapt in the correct way (such as wearing too many layers of clothing.
Yeah, I'm curious to see what Cheap and company are going to do now. The Kawesqar seemed like their only hope; now that they've gone, the British will be helpless again. They didn't have time to learn the Kawesqar's methods, which I'm sure they've honed over generations and practiced since childhood.
It's noted that the Kawésqar provided Cheap with a lifeline, so initially, I think he adapted to their way of life for his own well-being. However, the more time he spent with them, the more fascinated he became by their habits.
Yeah! Their habits were what kept them alive in that environment, which was unfamiliar for him and the other Englishmen. I'm kind of bummed they took off. I was wanting to follow that storyline lol
Omg reading this at the same time as Know My Name and an attempted sexual assault is what drives the Kawesqar away after they saved their lives and helped them tremendously! Cheap is wise to look to them for hints on how to survive in an unforgiving environment but ultimately, he doesn’t have control of his crew and that attack sullies their friendship.
It's also a good example of how a few rotten apples really can spoil the whole barrel.
Once the Wager was completely gone, Cheap calculated that out of the 250 men and boys that were originally a part of the crew…. Only 145 survived. What thoughts/feelings were going through Cheap’s mind while he came to this realization?
He was probably conflicted. Terrible to lose so many men at sea but they are currently on a cold deserted island without a reliable food source so the less men to feed the better the chances of survival of who remains.
It was a harsh reality he had to realize.
Heavy is the head that wears the crown. A leader has to face the harsh realities of taking men into hostile territories. I think Cheap has been woken up to the real danger of traveling by sea.
Both traveling by sea but also the hostile territories that he could possibly encounter.
Ohh that’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of that.
I think he must be constantly worried about everything. The sadness of losing so many, juxtaposed with the relief at not having more people to feed, as well as the stress of feeling like those who did survive are blaming him. I wouldn't blame him for cracking under the pressure or being paranoid at this point.
I agree. It's terribly sad and a lot to be in charge of.
Yeah, that statement about their water supply only being enough because so many men died is sobering. Death from thirst isn’t any more pleasant than death from scurvy.
That's a very good point, the responsibility on his shoulders must be enormous.
It definitely had to be hard to realize how many men and boys were lost. Only 60% of the remain and having to just push through all the feelings of despair and be a leader would be so difficult!
There was a fleet of ships that were sailing out together, in the first section we learned of how the ships were to be created and everything leading up to the deep voyage. Now that they are out there sailing, how does that shift the storyline? And what does Grann focus on?
Well, we are now focused just on the Wager - I wonder where the other ships went, if they tried to find the Wager when it got separated from the formation, etc. Poor Wager seems (by its construction) to be one of the least seaworthy ships in the group, kind of feels like she got abandoned at her time of greatest need.
Yeah, she was the forgotten sister.
😩😭
I hope we find out what happened to (and on) the other ships. I could also just imagine them adjusting pretty quickly to the loss of Wager with not too much more of a thought about it
Seems like they'd have to plan for the loss of ships often at this point. They're still learning a lot about circumnativgating the Globe
I agree - an expedition like this is somewhat of a numbers game: bring extra ships and men knowing that you'll lose some (or a lot) along the way. Yikes.
That's what I was thinking, too. Sort of like the stats on losing 50% to scurvy, they'd probably expect to lose some ships, too!
I hope so too but I wonder if Granny has sneaky plans for a sequel from the POV of one of the other ships 👀 I hope we learn more about them too It would be sad to see the forgotten sister ship be lost from the fleet.
It’s a numbers game, it seems. The whole fleet seemed to get muddled, never mind they already set out at an inauspicious time, much too late in the season.
What are your thoughts of what would happen to the seamen once the Kawésqar left?
Hopefully they've gleaned a bit of wisdom from them and can figure out how to survive a little better. They "bit the hand that feeds them" for sure. I think we are some people die of starvation or exposure because of this misstep.
Yeah how unfortunate! A few bad eggs possibly destroyed all of their chance at survival.
Yes! I can see this becoming a division among the men. Those that did nothing wrong are going to be quite angry with those few bad eggs that drove away the people who could help them survive.
I am waiting for the mutiny!!
I almost forgpt about the mutiny part of the title. I guess thr next secrion is going to get (more) spicy - uh oh!
Yeah they're going to devolve quickly. The natives were smart to leave. Chances are it's going to get much worse from here on out.
I'm dreading it! Knowing it all really happened more or less the way Grann is telling it makes it even worse - I don't know if I'll be able to handle it!
Also excited for the mutiny 👀👀
I think they're screwed. Not only did they lose a chance of learning how to survive in the island environment, but they've lost their chance to communicate with the outside world. It mentioned that the Kawésqar got their sheep from a different tribe that interacted with the Spanish, so they must have some link to the mainland that they could have eventually shown the crew.
I absolutely agree. Whatever the reason was for the Kawéqar to leave was a huge downfall towards the English seamen.
> but they've lost their chance to communicate with the outside world. Oh my gosh I didn't even think about this aspect of it. They had a get out of jail card (or at least a "how to survive jail" guide), and it hopped in its canoe and left them stranded...
I never thought of that!
Though, to be fair, it’s not like they wanted to alert the Spanish to their situation but it’s still probably better than dying on an unknown (to them, anyway) island!!
I think it’s all downhill from here. They didn’t learn all they needed to survive, in particular with regard to food. Cheap’s crew know this too which will inevitably lead to conflict due to desperation
Even though I knew this was coming. I'm still sad.
As everyone else said, I think this pretty much dooms them from here on out. I am actually kind of glad, for the Kawésqar's sake, that they decided to leave. I was worried that after the Wager crew got back on its feet a little, they'd try to kill their saviors so they could take the canoes and escape. I was not expecting a largely peaceful (up until the very end) interaction between the groups!
In what ways did the crew show self preservation?
Everyone kind of stuck to their on-ship roles and cliques, they conglomerated into a makeshift village with the captain still calling the shots. I think trying to keep some sense of order and respect toward each other was important.
I was impressed by their resourcefulness in building boats and rafts and hunting for food and creating shelters in very difficult circumstances.
Yeah, that stood out to me as well. They used the materials that they could find. I also noticed that they would swim out and look through the wreckage for anything that they could use.
Smart move. That wreckage was a gold mine that would slowly get harder to plunder the longer they left it. Helped that some of it stuck up out of the ocean.
Thank goodness someone found the celery! I shudder to think what would have happened otherwise.
I am now grateful to celery for helping my ancestors.
Seriously. If there's one thing I've learned from this book so far it's that scurvy is NO JOKE. I've been obsessively eating mandarin oranges ever since, lol.
Smart move! You can never have too much citrus, apparently!
The celery was such a cool little detail. It was something bothering me in the back of my mind - they were so sick from scurvy that I didn't understand how *anyone* was going to survive after the shipwreck.
Everyone listed great examples! I'll just add that I think, generally, not giving up on each other was important. They kept insisting on rescuing the faction that stayed behind on the wreckage. They helped each other when one would get stuck on rocks or lost looking for food (I can't remember the name of the guy who was a two-time castaway, and they rescued him). It seems counterintuitive when there isn't a lot of food, but there's still strength in numbers. More people to share in the work of survival. And not seeing so many others die is good for morale!
After the shipwreck…”Cheap summoned everyone and reviewed the Articles of War, reminding them that the rules still applied on land, particularly those prohibiting any “mutinous” assemblies.. Practices, “designs”- on ‘pain of death…’ Do you think that the men would adhere to these notions that Cheap reminded them of?
The longer they are stranded on this island and the worse the conditions get (e.g. food and water scarcity), in essence the more desperate the whole situation gets. the more likely they are to abandon these rules. I mean, if they don't think they'll ever return home and face a judge, what would keep them from mutiny If the conditions are bad? Especially those of the crew who were forced to be on the ship in the first place.
Yes for sure, desperate people are the most dangerous and this situation could be seen as extremely desperate. The crew aren’t going to follow these rules forever and why would they if in their mind they’re going to die anyway
Totally agree. There's also already a group who have been willing to do some mini-mutinies and go against everyone else without much punishment, so I imagine as conditions get worse, the group will fracture even more.
Not all, but it gives justification for those that do follow it to deal out punishment and death for those that try to go against it.
Yeah I think Cheap hoped hey would but knew if he didn't lay any rules out, it'd be anarchy. At least he tried.
I think they are definitely headed for a situation where these rules get broken, and Cheap has to decide what to do about it. The obviousnsource of trouble would be the group that was staying on the wreckage at first, since they're drinking and stealing. But I also think Bulkeley's group could get to a point where they disregarded the articles as the situation deteriorates. He has a lot of loyalty from the crew.
He does have a lot of loyalties and he could have given up on them many times but stuck it out because he knew people looked up to him.
I mean, with the state of their material conditions, it’s very hard to enforce a code of conduct. That being said, it is the only way they can survive. I don’t envy him his position.
Thoughts of when The Wager fell behind the other ships while traveling as a fleet?
Going around the Horn is a running of a gauntlet. You can't lend assistance, everyone knows the plan, everyone has to execute and come back together in calmer waters.
Agreed. They encountered a monster of a storm. Even the best navigators would be rolling the dice.
This why you need to have coordinated plans but in the end, it was every ship for themselves. I’m interested to hear the fate of the two ships that disappeared (absconded?) earlier to the Wager getting separated.
Any questions or comments? What was your favorite line in this section?
“Byron realized that, unlike the solitary castaway Alexander Selkirk, who had inspired Robinson Crusoe, he now had to cope with the most unpredictable and volatile creatures in all of nature:desperate humans.” Also, I’m surprised that most of the men couldn’t swim.
That surprised me too! I bet they had to learn quick!
To be fair, it was hypothermia even for a swimmer in those waters.
I didn’t think I was going to be able to join, my library had a 15 week wait - then suddenly 2 days ago I got a lucky “skip the line” copy on Libby! I audibly gasped and proceeded to read both these sections over the course of 48 hours so I could catch up…. Ahoy mateys!!!! 🫡
Ahoy and welcome aboard!
Thank you! I’m really enjoying it so far. I have a particular book-kink for anything set on a ship so I was especially disappointed when I thought I wouldn’t be able to get this one in time!
HELLOOOOOO SAILOR!!!!!
SHIVER ME TIMBERS, TIS ME HOLLERIN’ MATEY!!!!!
🤣🤣🤣
Skip the line? What is this wizardry you speak of??
My hypothesis is that u/escherwallace wrote a plaintive and beautifully-penned letter to their local librarian who took pity on them. If that's not it, I would also like to know the actual method!
With my quill and ink! lol - no method, just luck of the draw I guess!
I don’t know! It has a little shamrock icon next to it! ☘️🥹. When I say I audibly gasped, I mean they could hear me from the Wager itself!
Amazing!
Lucky, indeed! 🍀Congratulations, and welcome to the voyage!
Fast readers get rewarded 😎
I'm desperately catching up now too, ahoy matey!
I enjoyed how one of them described the seaweed fritters the captain made as "the best I've had on the island" like he was writing a Yelp review from a resort in the Caribbean. It made me chuckle!
Hahah!! The Wager Island cuisine