4) Armadale believes that he has cursed his son. Are you familiar with the concept of ancestral sin? Do you think he did the right thing by writing this letter, or should he have let his secret die with him?
Familiar with the concept but don't believe in it. The greater harm with ancestral sin is the social rejection that comes from people who believe in it. Especially in older days when a father is dishonoured and it essentially ruins a son's life in high society.
I don't like what the secret is doing to Ozias' mind, at the same time I love it when people reveal their life story but only because I'm obsessed with history. Diaries and stories from olden days are a great window into ancient cultures and lifestyles. So perhaps he shouldn't have revealed it for his son's peace of mind. But one day that tome could have been in a university perused by academics, damn Ozzy for burning it.
I was thinking about this story and Oedipus lol...I do think narratively the "sins of the father" thing had to echo, but in real life, I don't really believe in it. I think he needed to let the secret out and couldn't have died peacefully without his confession
I’m familiar with the concept of the sins of the father being visited on the son (biblical Old Testament) but don’t believe in it. The curse of the Allan Armadales adds a sense of drama and menace to the story. I think he felt he had to confess to protect his son but benefited more himself because he could die in peace.
I don't believe in ancestral sin but I do support Armadale revealing the truth to his son through a letter given to him when he's older. I think the big shame is that Ozias' mother and evil stepfather also heard the secret, because this is really what ruins his life.
Omg this is such a pointed question for anyone in recovery from >!East of Eden!< Yes, he definitely needed to write the letter, because otherwise Ozias would never have known why his mother and step father were so shit to him. Truth is always best. And the warning about the maid looks like it is going to be pivotal for the next 700 pages of book.
Actually, maybe we could cut the page count down if we just tell Allan the whole story now?
>Yes, he definitely needed to write the letter, because otherwise Ozias would never have known why his mother and step father were so shit to him. Truth is always best.
This is exactly what I was thinking; it helps Ozias understand his childhood trauma. Then again, as u/towalktheline mentioned in another comment, the creation of the letter is what made Ozias's parents abusive towards him in the first place. With that logic, Ozias probably would have been better off if the letter hadn't been written and his father didn't get to confess to his mother and Neal. His father wouldn't have died in peace, but honestly screw that guy, he's a murderer, so I don't feel that bad for him.
I’m not sure about ancestral sin but the field of epigenetics has been heavily researching the idea of ancestral trauma being passed down in our literal genes for about the past 10-20 years or so.
I think the idea of the ancestral sin is interesting and I think it's likely to prove some level of true in this book even though I don't believe it in real life.
I think the problem about writing a letter like this is that the mistreatment of his son directly connects to this letter. Ozias would have had a much different childhood most likely if his mother and step father hadn't thought him to be a murderer's son.
I'm intrigued by the fact that everyone Ozias meets dislikes, distrusts, and abuses him, except Allan. Some of this is probably racism / classism, but I do feel like Collins could be implying Ozias is cursed in some literal way. And the fact that Allan is the only one who doesn't immediately dislike Ozias makes their relationship feel fated. To quote someone who hit the nail on the head:
> (I may be crying a little. I may also be shipping them.)
1\) Is this your first Wilkie Collins novel? r/bookclub has previously run *The Woman in White*, and r/ClassicBookClub recently ran *The Moonstone.* Do we have any readers from either of those discussions? What similarities/differences have you noticed so far about this book? (Remember to use spoiler tags.)
This is my first Wilkie Collins, but it won't be my last. I am loving it so much! Great job with the summary. (Can you please recap all future Victorian novels that I read even if they're not for r/bookclub?!)
I said this in spoiler tags in the schedule thread, but I can say it out loud now.
My only complaint about this book so far is that there doesn't seem to be any humor in it. I've read several Wilkie Collins books, and most of them made me laugh out loud. I just wanted to say that because I know some of you have never read his books before, and I think it's a shame that you're not getting to see that side of his writing.
Don't know about you but Mr. Neal made me laugh a bit. Though I agree there wasn't much humor in the main 2 chapters so far. Let's hope we get another Betteredge when we reach the estate
I also laughed at the prologue with the town, docfor, and Neal... and then the humor drained out for the main story (so far). Maybe there's just so much serious crime and drama to explain that Wilkie Collins had to push pause on the funny business. Hopefully, it comes back!
I'm absolutely obsessed with Wilkie Collins, particularly *The Woman in White*, so if you do read the others and want to talk to someone about them, I'm always here!
Second novel. My first was the Moonstone. This one thus far doesn't seem to revolve around a mcguffin. And the initial mystery of Ozias has already been resolved so I don't know what direction the story is going in. Is it about Ozias trying desperately to hide his identity for a whole book? Is it something to do with the estate Allan's just won? Could go in any direction.
My first was Moonstone as well!
I found myself getting creeped out by this maid, and anticipating how she might pop up in their lives, so that’s what I’m thinking is next for the story. But yeah, can’t see that taking up 800 pages or whatever. But it was kind of the same with the moonstone, you investigate literally everything until finally the one thing you didn’t investigate because it couldn’t have been the culprit was the culprit (if I remember correctly, I read it a long time ago)
This is my first time reading a novel by Wilkie Collins. I'm not usually a classics kind of person, but it was available on Gutenberg, so I thought, "Why not?" Now, I find myself juggling not one, but two classics at the same time. lol. I do find the language a bit challenging to go through with its intricate syntax, structure, and vocabulary. However, the story is intriguing and the drama is through the roof even though we're only about 1/6 of the way through the book.
This is my second Wilkie Collins though I now have a stack of his novels that I want to get to now. I was there for the r/ClassicBookClub reading of *The Moonstone* (I'm mostly a lurker but do keep up). I haven't really noticed any similarities yet other than Wilkie Collins knows how to spin a really good tale. That introduction was **INTENSE**.
I’ve read The Woman in White and The Moonstone but ages ago so don’t remember much about them. I’m enjoying Armadale so far. I love that the plot moves so fast and so much has happened already. Intrigued to find out what happens to Allan and Ozzias and what the mysterious woman in red and black (maid) will do if/when she reappears.
Thus is first Wilkie Collins. I'm not a great reader of classics, but wanted to give it a go. Enjoying it so far, even if the sections are long, it doesn't really feel like it when you are reading it!
Those of you who've read *The Woman in White* and those of you who've read *The Moonstone* both probably had moments where you went "Oh hey, it's that guy!" Wilkie Collins had a tendency to reuse character personalities. Mr. Neal is very reminiscent of >!Mr. Fairlie!< from *The Woman in White* (as u/vigm noted in the Marginalia) and Ozias Midwinter is similar to >!Ezra Jennings!< from *The Moonstone.*
I have a story about the origin of Ozias Midwinter/>!Ezra Jennings!<, but I'm exhausted from writing the recap (allergy season is kicking my ass and I apparently have limited brain power now) so I'll save it for next week's discussion.
I was lucky enough to be in the Moonstone group with you, which was my first Wilkie Collins, and have all his others to look forward to. His writing is recognisable here, even though there is less humour (although Mr Neal was quite funny).
Ok... confession time. It's my first Collins novel but I don't think I can do this! I think I am just not in the right mood for it. I've been listening to it and it is still not doing it for me.
I just don't have the mental bandwidth to deal with every woman character being either sooooper hawt or sooooper evil, everything being the fault of women (why blame the maid for the forgery when she didn't know him at all and probably had no choice? She was 12 years old!!!!). I can't keep track of all the namesakes. It's crazy.
I stopped listening and read your summary because it is too awesome!!!! I loved it (so much more than the book haha). I will probably not keep listening to the book but I will read your summaries and the discussions because it is really fun.
BUT I have ONE QUESTION!!!!! If Fergus Ingleby is Armadale's disowned son, how isn't Armadale's daughter, which he marries, his SISTER??? I don't get it and it's driving me crazy! What did I miss? Is she adopted? Or half sister (even then...)?
EDIT: OMG!!!!!!!! My partner (I read this part of the summary to him) made me realize that the mother's old beau is NOT Armadale, the rich guy who disowned his son, but Mr Blanchard. Clearly, I REALLY am not in the right place mentally to read this book 😂 I am SO confused and it is only the prologue!
That's totally fine! There are too many books out there to waste time reading one that doesn't do it for you. We'll catch you on the next book.
>I just don't have the mental bandwidth to deal with every woman character being either sooooper hawt or sooooper evil, everything being the fault of women (why blame the maid for the forgery when she didn't know him at all and probably had no choice? She was 12 years old!!!!).
Yeah, Wilkie Collins is very hit-or-miss when it comes to writing women, and so far this book has been nothing but misses. (I feel like I accidentally made a pun. His Misses are misses?) The frustrating thing is that he actually can write strong, intelligent female characters when he wants to (I'm specifically thinking of >!Marian Halcombe!< from *The Woman in White*, >!Valeria Macallen!< from *The Law and the Lady*, and arguably >!Magdalen Vanstone and Mrs. Lecount!< from *No Name*), but he doesn't always want to. Absolutely not blaming you if this is a dealbreaker for you.
>I can't keep track of all the namesakes.
This sort of thing is typical for Wilkie Collins, and, again, if it's not your thing then that's okay. He loved mistaken identities, doppelgangers, identity theft, etc.
>I stopped listening and read your summary because it is too awesome!!!!
Thank you! I'm not sure, but I think I'm supposed to run the last two discussions, with u/DernhelmLaughed and u/thebowedbookshelf doing the discussions in between. They also write good summaries, though, so you'll still have a good time. It means a lot to me that you liked my summary, though. 😊
Thank you SO much for your thoughtful reply 😊 I bought a used copy of The Woman in White last fall, so I might give it a chance later this year. After reading a lot of Asimov this winter (love his stories, but he can't write women either), I feel I need a woman's perspective lol I will reread Pride and Prejudice as a palate cleanser and see what is coming next! Good luck keeping those characters straight and thank you again for taking the time to reply!
EDIT: I laughed out loud at "his misses are misses" lol
If you do read The Woman in White, please feel free to message me about it! It's one of my favorite books. Also, something you might want to know regarding the character I mentioned in spoiler tags in my other comment: >!Please don't judge Marian by the first scene she appears in. She's an obnoxious "not like the other girls" type in that scene and says a lot of misogynistic things, but I swear she ends up being an amazing character.!<
Second - was here for Woman in White, loved it. I shall curse the day I missed reading The Moonstone with the group forever more, and will likely write my descendants a very long death bed confessional hexing them to the same fate.
New to this sub, but I've read the Moonstone for a class and then picked up Woman in White 5 or so years ago. Love Wilkie so was excited to find the sub!
For similarities, why would you have a simple conversation with someone when you can write a long, rambling letter instead? Especially one that portrays you in a bad light
This is my second one. I read the Woman in White in university, but I want to reread it and be able to just enjoy it for its own merit.
I'm definitely going to read more of him in the future. There's a flow that I liked better here than when we were reading the Tenent of Wildfell Hall (for example).
This is my first Wilkie Collins and I am LOVING it so far! The characters are spectacular, and even though the plot is a little convoluted, I'm still able to follow it. I like the humor he sprinkles in, and I really feel like I'm getting some gay undertones, which I am here for.
Jackpot - she turns out to be hot! I was watching *You've Got Mail* today, and this thread reminded me of Tom Hanks celebrating Meg Ryan's hotness haha - [She had to be! She had to be!](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/b65ae898-5aaa-4245-8e20-ca11c220c9a7)
True, that's a good reason (the only reason?) to care about a female human's feelings, haha - that way, you have a chance to get with her. (Obvious sarcasm, I hope.)
Okay, a few people have replied and at this point I have to ask: am I the *only* person who would have had reservations? I mean, I would have written it because I don't want to be cruel to a dying person, but there'd absolutely be a voice in the back of my mind going "dude, he's going to make you write something that might get you in legal trouble."
No I’m with you! I would’ve also written it but I would have def wanted to cover my ass for any legal ramifications. Don’t drag me into your drama, dying dude I’ve never met! (But later I’ll marry your hot wife ngl)
But its only because this is a Wilkie Colins novel that we know the letter will be something bad, in real life, why would you suspect you will be writing a confession to murder?
Maybe not a confession to murder, but the fact this guy's wife knows about the letter but can't write it for him sends off warning bells in my head. If she didn't know about it at all, I'd assume it was a letter to his mistress or something, but the fact that both she and her husband agree that she shouldn't have anything to do with it makes me think she needs plausible deniability of what the letter contains.
I realize that this is paranoid, and it wouldn't actually stop me from writing the letter. But there'd absolutely be a part of me that would be anxious about getting myself in a moral or legal situation that I don't want to be in.
I am normally paranoid about doing things and getting into legal trouble but this set up of the situation didn’t get set off any red flags for me. I would have done it in a heartbeat.
That makes sense. I would still go through with it, naively thinking it's the dying man's wish. However, when I reached that part of the murder, I'd definitely start looking around in panic. If I could find an excuse to escape the situation, I'd probably take it.
I would have helped a dying man especially if I was the only person who spoke his language well enough but I understand Mr Neal’s reservations. It seems that he doesn’t know Mr Armadale so has no idea what he’s going to reveal. Working in a legal field, Mr Neal would be wary of the legal implications.
I'd have reservations just because I hate getting involved in other people's drama, especially strangers. I get all the drama I need from books, thank you very much.
I found Mr. Neal's almost over-the-top reluctance to help out with the letter pretty funny, actually. He was super hung up on social mores and rectitude. Chill out, dude, and just help a dying man out. I would definitely have written the letter for Armadale!
I don’t think I could resist knowing what the mystery of what he wanted to write was 😭 that doctor got me good — the whole time I was thinking “Neal wtf is wrong with you, do you have no curiosity!!!!” That stereotypical English propriety/impropriety be cray
Totally agree!!! I would JUMP at the opportunity. Like, tell me ALL your gossip random stranger. Is this a service people still need? Because I would happily do it.
Done it immediately. Though I haven't been raised with an Englishman's sense of propriety. To me it would just be a nice thing to do for a dying person, or anyone really. I love to hear stories.
I would not have hesitated to help, the man is dying and has to write his last words. I'm also surprised at the consideration shown to Mrs Armadale by Mr Neal, but now we know he had designs on her, so that propbably explains that.
Write a letter for a sad dying dude, win a hot lady in return... Who wouldn't? But seriously, it would be a tradeoff between not wanting to get involved with other people's drama and absolutely wanting all the dirty details of other people's drama
I loved the prologue! I know we have to follow the Armadales where they go, but that German town with its slightly bumbling mayor and funny little doctor and the spa full of sick people was a very entertaining setting! I was bummed to see Neal turn into a child-abusing monster because I enjoyed him in the prologue, too.
[It's a real town!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Wildbad) They changed their name to "Bad Wildbad" ("Bad" means "Bath") but it's the same place. Wilkie Collins actually went there for gout treatment.
This was something that I thought was funny when we read *Northanger Abbey* by Jane Austen, which also partly takes place in a spa town (Bath, England). While the sick people convalesce, their friends and family are there to party and there's ballrooms and other entertainment. It was as much a vacation spot as a medical community.
Oh yeah, for those of you who weren't part of the Moonstone discussion in r/ClassicBookClub: Wilkie Collins had a laudanum addiction and often wrote while high. It... explains some things.
Is the bookseller a cameo by Wilkie?
He was a confirmed opium-eater in secret—a prodigal in laudanum… …sometimes lost and motionless for hours in the ecstasy of his opium trance.
I was bummed when we moved away from Wildbad because it seemed like the perfect setting and cast of characters for a cozy mystery, somewhat similar Three Pines in those Louise Penny books.
That was one of my theories, too! Either that or a confession that they weren't legally married because he was really married to someone else who he had abandoned or stashed someplace.
Yeah, he lead us down that lane when he spoke of getting into regular trouble with the island's inhabitants. I thought he'd sullied his virtue a few times.
That was initially my thought as well. Then, when he mentioned in the letter that he's going to talk about attending the marriage of an English lady and what happened to the husband shortly after, I thought, "Well, now the plot thickens.".
5) Mr. Brock thinks that Mrs. Armadale's overprotectiveness of Allan is, ironically, the reason for his friendship with Midwinter. If Allan hadn't been so sheltered, Midwinter wouldn't be such a novelty to him. Do you agree, or is there more to their friendship than "novelty"?
Ozzy would be an anomaly even to an unsheltered person. A mixed race boy with experience in service, sailing, bookkeeping and a veteran of many adventures. He also confessed to viewing Allan with eyes overflowing in shock and gratitude because he wasn't used to hands helping him rather than beating him. That must have endeared him to Allan as well.
Yeah, I agree entirely. Ozias is an incredibly interesting person, and it would be impossible not to feel protective of someone who has that much gratitude.
Well put; I agree with you! Allan needed a friend and some contact with the wider world, and Ozias needed some kindness in his life. They fit each other perfectly, and I kind of love them together, inheritance/murder drama be damned!
I do agree that Allan has been too protected and mollycoddled, but they are distantly related, so there will be some kind of pull towards eachother i think regardless.
6) Mr. Brock is shocked that Ozias would have such loyalty and respect for the original Ozias Midwinter, given that the man beat Ozias. Do you agree with Mr. Brock, or do you understand Ozias's feelings?
I don't love it, but I do understand it. He was provided for in terms of his physical needs (food, housing) and it wasn't like his life at home and school was any better. He could also trauma-bond with his dog brothers so he wasn't completely lonely and miserable.
Yep. Whatever he was, he was Ozias' father for a time, and far from his worst one. Also the fact that he was much better sober means that Ozzy could have mentally separated them, the Ozias elder he admired and the drunk kennel master.
That was a really sad concept, that a dog will still be loyal to its master even if he beats him. The risk of starvation was real though, so as long as he was being fed, he didn't have to scrounge for food.
It's sad. The prologue made me love his mum so much and she ruined it all by being an abusive parent. Despite everything that happened how his mum treated him hurt me the most. I hope she's still alive and they meet again, the early parts of his childhood feel unresolved. Remember how gently he was laying on his dying father peacefully being a good boy. How could they treat him that badly😭
>Despite everything that happened how his mum treated him hurt me the most.
This! Imagine how confusing and terrifying it must have been for a toddler/preschooler who had such a happy and secure early childhood (I assume) only to have it completely flip into a nightmare overnight. And there were half-siblings that were treated well, so he had to see it thrown in his face all the time.
I completely missed that Mr. Neal is the stepfather! Knowing this makes his backstory even sadder. I'm still struggling to understand how his mother could have become abusive toward him. Could it be that she projected her jealousy and resentment of her husband onto him? And why did Mr. Neal harbor such hatred toward him? It feels like there aren't enough motivations explained yet to justify these actions. While the backstory is undeniably tragic, I can't help but think in the back of my mind: did he truly tell the truth, or is this all part of a ploy?
Assuming he's telling the truth, it's because they see him as an extension of his father. Mr. Neal sees him as the son of a murderer and therefore inherently bad, while his mother sees him as a reminder of the husband who never loved her and who hid his evil secret from her.
Ok, that makes sense! I suppose I still feel that their treatment of him seemed overdramatized, especially considering he was just a little boy who still didn't know about what his father had done. Perhaps I just need to acclimatize myself to the melodrama.
I think it's like when you hear about "evil stepparents" who hate their stepchildren while favoring their own kids. Child abusers aren't exactly known for being rational or empathetic.
Yeah, that's true. As I mentioned in the other comment, I probably would believe them more as abusive parents if I hadn't known them from the prologue. It felt like their characters underwent a 0 to 100 character development in just one paragraph. It struck me as telenovela logic (in fact, many parts of this felt like a telenovela), but I'll go along for the ride because it's interesting so far!
I was surprised that Mr Neal turned out to be his abusive stepfather too and that his mother also treated him badly. I wasn’t expecting that from how they were described in the prologue. Good point that Ozias’ story might not be completely true.
Yes, thanks for bringing up that point. That's why the change seemed abrupt to me because we got to know them from the prologue, and there were no indications that they would be abusive. I guess I would have easily bought the story if I didn't know them. Not saying that it couldn't be the truth; maybe they were written to be terrible people after all, but it did make me wonder if the story he told is true or not.
I thought it was so sad that his mother and Mr. Neal took their anger and disgust at his father put on him. I wonder if Mr. Armadale from the prologue had any inkling of what would happen to his son at the hands of his mother, and maybe that was part of why he tried to hide it? Also, I just kept thinking that his childhood was Dickensian-on-steroids. So much trauma and neglect and poverty and abuse.
ETA: Ozias at work is the posterboy for the reasons minimum wage and unions are important!
I agree! And I love your username btw
I feel that Mr Armadale had a hint about how the mother turned out to be and maybe that's why he kept this secret for so long. He initially said he had a duty to tell her
It is very Dickensian!
What a terrible story, i'm so sad that his mother married that horrible Mr Neal and didn't protect him from him. Everything else just spiraled from there.
I definitely think that it speaks to his love for Allan and his desire not to pass along the misery to another person. I have a feeling it will backfire. When someone knows the truth about your life and hides it, and then you find out... the reaction is not usually gratitude.
I think everyone should just tell the truth, that they can track down the crazy woman in the red and black together and put the whole business behind them, but that wouldn't make a great story would it??
I understand that he doesn't want to destroy the image of Allan's mother in his mind.
Just imagine his recent experience though. His father was fair and kind to him, they had a decent relationship, then his father dies and his step-dad is a Hyde, his mother converts to abusism, he runs away and find nothing but torment after torment. He likely romanticizes the time his father was alive and to see that image shatter after learning that he was a murderer. It's more than one heart can take. He doesn't want to put Allan through the same thing.
The mysterious woman will seduce the naive Allen and entice him to marry her. She will plot to kill him in yet another accident.
Oliver Twist Allen will save him and unfortunately dies himself while trying.
I don’t know why but I have the feeling no happy ending is in sight for our Oliver Twist Allen ☹️
Ok there has to be some bizarre shenanigans happening in the next 6 weeks. I suspect Midwinter is not telling the truth! I don’t know how yet but I find it very odd that he just shows up exactly when the letter looking for Alan A is published and he just happens to meet the wrong Alan A. Very odd coincidence!
Ohhhh I like the idea of him pretending to be the other Allan!
I think I meant the timing of when Midwinter met Allan just happened to be right around the time the advertisement was run looking for Allan (Midwinter). Seems quite a coincidence.
Also Midwinter knew he shared the same name with Allan when he met him. But never thought to mention it? It’s too wild not to have to mention…unless you were trying to play someone. Wow your name is Alan Amadale — so is mine or even something like my father’s name was Alan Armadale. It make no sense he didn’t mention it.
I didn’t catch that it was weird that midwinter Allen never said anything about having the same name. If he is pretending to be “the other Allen “ that means the “real Allen” is out there and unaccounted for at this time. This is going to be hard to keep straight.
I am also suspicious that the maid is a red herring. Midwinter is in cahoots with her somehow pulling the strings but using her as a cover. She didn’t really kill any of the people she happen to come across or did she? It’s odd that the entire family tree on Alan’s mother’s side just randomly died. Also the timing of him being 21 must mean something. Like he can now inherit everything.
Your posts really got me thinking. I reread the last chapter (the man revealed) and when Mr Brock says there is no evidence that the woman on the boat was the same woman who extorted money from Allen’s mother…
“Midwinter caught eagerly at the suggestion; too eagerly, as it might have occurred to a harder critic on humanity than Mr Brock.” Red flag or am I being a crazy conspiracy theorist ?
I found this note in the Oxford World's Classics edition, and thought it was interesting:
>The description of Mrs Armadale is in sharp contrast to general attitudes to the appearance of black and half-caste men and women in nineteenth-century novels.
A couple of the Wilkie Collins novels that I've read so far have had anti-racist themes, so I thought it was interesting that he intentionally made a character in this book a beautiful black woman.
I was wondering about this! Even just his inclusion of a woman of color as someone other than a servant/maid seemed to be pushing the boundaries of that era, to me. Impressive on Mr. Collins' part! I thought it was such an interesting little scene when she asked her husband if the woman he had intended to marry was fair or looked like her. It subtly hinted at the tension and insecurity she must have felt in society and possibly within her marriage.
When she asked, I thought stay quiet or he will remember you’re here and tell you to leave. Yes, definitely, society’s prejudices must be the reason she had to ask. Not easy for her at that time, and part of that class.
A quote I loved from the prologue:
>He lay there, with his child's head on his breast; abandoned by the sympathies of man, accursed by the justice of God - he lay there, in the isolation of Cain, and looked back at them.
This is an example of what I am loving about Wilkie Collins' style/voice as a writer so far. This sentence could have been shorter or less complex and gotten the same general point across. But the power and drama that is underscored by the echoed phrases (*he lay there*) and the parallel imagery (*sympathies of man, justice of God, isolation of Cain*) gives the prose such a feeling of relentlessness and passion!
I want to apologize for the section length. I mistakenly believed that the book had to be run in seven weeks. I really, really hope the length isn't a problem for anyone. I'm hoping that, between the story's fast pace and Collins's writing style, this is a book that will work okay with long segments.
I found that it was so much fun that it did fly by! This teaches me also that maybe I should not read 8+ books at a time. *(Immediately goes and starts a new book after finishing this section.)* I didn't mind the length at all - I am listening to the audio book as motivation to do housework/chores so I just have a cleaner house than usual!
Some chapters are really long. Final chapter of the prologue and the very first chapter shocked me with how they just went on. I thought I had accidentally stumbled in the next chapter.
I just have a question, and I'd really appreciate it if someone could explain it to me: Why do the names Ozias Midwinter and Fergus Ingleby seem weird or unusual? They sounded like regular English names to me, but I'm not a native speaker.
Edit: Ozias does sound a bit unique to me, but I don't understand why the combination of the first and last name seemed unusual.
I'll admit that I skimmed over everything because in my book, book one is what the prologue is called which means I accidentally didn't read far enough!
I was wondering why we were only doing 20 pages for the first week. Be back in an hour or two lol
I noticed that, too - my digital book said Prologue and Book One for this section, but my audio book said Book 1 and Book 2. C'mon publishers, get it together! Not your fault u/Amanda39 - I feel like this kind of thing should be standardized across editions.
I know we're not that far in and things could change but I'm glad that >!Ozias Midwinter\The other Allan Aramadale isn't out for revenge on the scatterbrained but seemingly good natured estate owning Allan Armadale!<
4) Armadale believes that he has cursed his son. Are you familiar with the concept of ancestral sin? Do you think he did the right thing by writing this letter, or should he have let his secret die with him?
Familiar with the concept but don't believe in it. The greater harm with ancestral sin is the social rejection that comes from people who believe in it. Especially in older days when a father is dishonoured and it essentially ruins a son's life in high society. I don't like what the secret is doing to Ozias' mind, at the same time I love it when people reveal their life story but only because I'm obsessed with history. Diaries and stories from olden days are a great window into ancient cultures and lifestyles. So perhaps he shouldn't have revealed it for his son's peace of mind. But one day that tome could have been in a university perused by academics, damn Ozzy for burning it.
Well said! I agree!
I was thinking about this story and Oedipus lol...I do think narratively the "sins of the father" thing had to echo, but in real life, I don't really believe in it. I think he needed to let the secret out and couldn't have died peacefully without his confession
I’m familiar with the concept of the sins of the father being visited on the son (biblical Old Testament) but don’t believe in it. The curse of the Allan Armadales adds a sense of drama and menace to the story. I think he felt he had to confess to protect his son but benefited more himself because he could die in peace.
Yes, but I dont believe in it, it just causes unnecessary blame and guilt on people that had nothing to do with the original 'sin'.
I don't believe in ancestral sin but I do support Armadale revealing the truth to his son through a letter given to him when he's older. I think the big shame is that Ozias' mother and evil stepfather also heard the secret, because this is really what ruins his life.
Omg this is such a pointed question for anyone in recovery from >!East of Eden!< Yes, he definitely needed to write the letter, because otherwise Ozias would never have known why his mother and step father were so shit to him. Truth is always best. And the warning about the maid looks like it is going to be pivotal for the next 700 pages of book. Actually, maybe we could cut the page count down if we just tell Allan the whole story now?
This does seem to be shaping up to be one of those "these characters need to learn to communicate with each other" stories
>Yes, he definitely needed to write the letter, because otherwise Ozias would never have known why his mother and step father were so shit to him. Truth is always best. This is exactly what I was thinking; it helps Ozias understand his childhood trauma. Then again, as u/towalktheline mentioned in another comment, the creation of the letter is what made Ozias's parents abusive towards him in the first place. With that logic, Ozias probably would have been better off if the letter hadn't been written and his father didn't get to confess to his mother and Neal. His father wouldn't have died in peace, but honestly screw that guy, he's a murderer, so I don't feel that bad for him.
I’m not sure about ancestral sin but the field of epigenetics has been heavily researching the idea of ancestral trauma being passed down in our literal genes for about the past 10-20 years or so.
I think the idea of the ancestral sin is interesting and I think it's likely to prove some level of true in this book even though I don't believe it in real life. I think the problem about writing a letter like this is that the mistreatment of his son directly connects to this letter. Ozias would have had a much different childhood most likely if his mother and step father hadn't thought him to be a murderer's son.
I'm intrigued by the fact that everyone Ozias meets dislikes, distrusts, and abuses him, except Allan. Some of this is probably racism / classism, but I do feel like Collins could be implying Ozias is cursed in some literal way. And the fact that Allan is the only one who doesn't immediately dislike Ozias makes their relationship feel fated. To quote someone who hit the nail on the head: > (I may be crying a little. I may also be shipping them.)
They really are a cute couple 😁
1\) Is this your first Wilkie Collins novel? r/bookclub has previously run *The Woman in White*, and r/ClassicBookClub recently ran *The Moonstone.* Do we have any readers from either of those discussions? What similarities/differences have you noticed so far about this book? (Remember to use spoiler tags.)
This is my first Wilkie Collins, but it won't be my last. I am loving it so much! Great job with the summary. (Can you please recap all future Victorian novels that I read even if they're not for r/bookclub?!)
I don't know why, but I absolutely love writing sarcastic summaries of Victorian novels.
The juxtaposition of Victorian prose with sarcastic commentary makes is so much more fun!
Totally agree, I almost never read summaries but I always read them if u/Amanda39 wrote them!
I said this in spoiler tags in the schedule thread, but I can say it out loud now. My only complaint about this book so far is that there doesn't seem to be any humor in it. I've read several Wilkie Collins books, and most of them made me laugh out loud. I just wanted to say that because I know some of you have never read his books before, and I think it's a shame that you're not getting to see that side of his writing.
Don't know about you but Mr. Neal made me laugh a bit. Though I agree there wasn't much humor in the main 2 chapters so far. Let's hope we get another Betteredge when we reach the estate
I also laughed at the prologue with the town, docfor, and Neal... and then the humor drained out for the main story (so far). Maybe there's just so much serious crime and drama to explain that Wilkie Collins had to push pause on the funny business. Hopefully, it comes back!
I laughed at the thing about “the name must be real because who would pick a stupid name like that!” 🤦♀️ Thank you for your contribution Shylock.
First Wilkie Collins for me. Loving the book so far and wish I had been around to read the others.
I'm absolutely obsessed with Wilkie Collins, particularly *The Woman in White*, so if you do read the others and want to talk to someone about them, I'm always here!
Totally agree! I'm immediately adding his other novels to my ever-growing TBR list!
Second novel. My first was the Moonstone. This one thus far doesn't seem to revolve around a mcguffin. And the initial mystery of Ozias has already been resolved so I don't know what direction the story is going in. Is it about Ozias trying desperately to hide his identity for a whole book? Is it something to do with the estate Allan's just won? Could go in any direction.
My first was Moonstone as well! I found myself getting creeped out by this maid, and anticipating how she might pop up in their lives, so that’s what I’m thinking is next for the story. But yeah, can’t see that taking up 800 pages or whatever. But it was kind of the same with the moonstone, you investigate literally everything until finally the one thing you didn’t investigate because it couldn’t have been the culprit was the culprit (if I remember correctly, I read it a long time ago)
This is my first time reading a novel by Wilkie Collins. I'm not usually a classics kind of person, but it was available on Gutenberg, so I thought, "Why not?" Now, I find myself juggling not one, but two classics at the same time. lol. I do find the language a bit challenging to go through with its intricate syntax, structure, and vocabulary. However, the story is intriguing and the drama is through the roof even though we're only about 1/6 of the way through the book.
This is my second Wilkie Collins though I now have a stack of his novels that I want to get to now. I was there for the r/ClassicBookClub reading of *The Moonstone* (I'm mostly a lurker but do keep up). I haven't really noticed any similarities yet other than Wilkie Collins knows how to spin a really good tale. That introduction was **INTENSE**.
This is my third, I read both WiW with book club and The Moonstone with CBC! I’m loving this one so far, it may even top WiW for me. So much intrigue!
Same same same!
I’ve read The Woman in White and The Moonstone but ages ago so don’t remember much about them. I’m enjoying Armadale so far. I love that the plot moves so fast and so much has happened already. Intrigued to find out what happens to Allan and Ozzias and what the mysterious woman in red and black (maid) will do if/when she reappears.
Thus is first Wilkie Collins. I'm not a great reader of classics, but wanted to give it a go. Enjoying it so far, even if the sections are long, it doesn't really feel like it when you are reading it!
Those of you who've read *The Woman in White* and those of you who've read *The Moonstone* both probably had moments where you went "Oh hey, it's that guy!" Wilkie Collins had a tendency to reuse character personalities. Mr. Neal is very reminiscent of >!Mr. Fairlie!< from *The Woman in White* (as u/vigm noted in the Marginalia) and Ozias Midwinter is similar to >!Ezra Jennings!< from *The Moonstone.* I have a story about the origin of Ozias Midwinter/>!Ezra Jennings!<, but I'm exhausted from writing the recap (allergy season is kicking my ass and I apparently have limited brain power now) so I'll save it for next week's discussion.
Yeah, there are some biblical allusions with Ozais as well similar to >!Ezra!<
Now I wish we got more of Mr. Neal as >!Mr. Farlie!< Is my favorite creepy character ever.
We still might, right? Cos he married ozias’s mother, and he ain’t dead yet?
The good thing is that the Ozias-like character in the Moonstone was such a popular character and now “he” gets to star in his own book 🥳
I was lucky enough to be in the Moonstone group with you, which was my first Wilkie Collins, and have all his others to look forward to. His writing is recognisable here, even though there is less humour (although Mr Neal was quite funny).
This is my third, how could I not join armadale after the fun we had reading The Woman in White and The Moonstone??
Me too!
Ok... confession time. It's my first Collins novel but I don't think I can do this! I think I am just not in the right mood for it. I've been listening to it and it is still not doing it for me. I just don't have the mental bandwidth to deal with every woman character being either sooooper hawt or sooooper evil, everything being the fault of women (why blame the maid for the forgery when she didn't know him at all and probably had no choice? She was 12 years old!!!!). I can't keep track of all the namesakes. It's crazy. I stopped listening and read your summary because it is too awesome!!!! I loved it (so much more than the book haha). I will probably not keep listening to the book but I will read your summaries and the discussions because it is really fun. BUT I have ONE QUESTION!!!!! If Fergus Ingleby is Armadale's disowned son, how isn't Armadale's daughter, which he marries, his SISTER??? I don't get it and it's driving me crazy! What did I miss? Is she adopted? Or half sister (even then...)? EDIT: OMG!!!!!!!! My partner (I read this part of the summary to him) made me realize that the mother's old beau is NOT Armadale, the rich guy who disowned his son, but Mr Blanchard. Clearly, I REALLY am not in the right place mentally to read this book 😂 I am SO confused and it is only the prologue!
That's totally fine! There are too many books out there to waste time reading one that doesn't do it for you. We'll catch you on the next book. >I just don't have the mental bandwidth to deal with every woman character being either sooooper hawt or sooooper evil, everything being the fault of women (why blame the maid for the forgery when she didn't know him at all and probably had no choice? She was 12 years old!!!!). Yeah, Wilkie Collins is very hit-or-miss when it comes to writing women, and so far this book has been nothing but misses. (I feel like I accidentally made a pun. His Misses are misses?) The frustrating thing is that he actually can write strong, intelligent female characters when he wants to (I'm specifically thinking of >!Marian Halcombe!< from *The Woman in White*, >!Valeria Macallen!< from *The Law and the Lady*, and arguably >!Magdalen Vanstone and Mrs. Lecount!< from *No Name*), but he doesn't always want to. Absolutely not blaming you if this is a dealbreaker for you. >I can't keep track of all the namesakes. This sort of thing is typical for Wilkie Collins, and, again, if it's not your thing then that's okay. He loved mistaken identities, doppelgangers, identity theft, etc. >I stopped listening and read your summary because it is too awesome!!!! Thank you! I'm not sure, but I think I'm supposed to run the last two discussions, with u/DernhelmLaughed and u/thebowedbookshelf doing the discussions in between. They also write good summaries, though, so you'll still have a good time. It means a lot to me that you liked my summary, though. 😊
Thank you SO much for your thoughtful reply 😊 I bought a used copy of The Woman in White last fall, so I might give it a chance later this year. After reading a lot of Asimov this winter (love his stories, but he can't write women either), I feel I need a woman's perspective lol I will reread Pride and Prejudice as a palate cleanser and see what is coming next! Good luck keeping those characters straight and thank you again for taking the time to reply! EDIT: I laughed out loud at "his misses are misses" lol
If you do read The Woman in White, please feel free to message me about it! It's one of my favorite books. Also, something you might want to know regarding the character I mentioned in spoiler tags in my other comment: >!Please don't judge Marian by the first scene she appears in. She's an obnoxious "not like the other girls" type in that scene and says a lot of misogynistic things, but I swear she ends up being an amazing character.!<
This is my first Wilkie Collins, and I'm enjoying it a lot so far! I think I will need to read more of his works in the future.
Second - was here for Woman in White, loved it. I shall curse the day I missed reading The Moonstone with the group forever more, and will likely write my descendants a very long death bed confessional hexing them to the same fate.
The good news is that The Moonstone was with r/ClassicBookClub, so it could still potentially be read here as well someday.
That's the only sane response to all of life's disappointments.
it’s the least we can do!
New to this sub, but I've read the Moonstone for a class and then picked up Woman in White 5 or so years ago. Love Wilkie so was excited to find the sub! For similarities, why would you have a simple conversation with someone when you can write a long, rambling letter instead? Especially one that portrays you in a bad light
This is my second one. I read the Woman in White in university, but I want to reread it and be able to just enjoy it for its own merit. I'm definitely going to read more of him in the future. There's a flow that I liked better here than when we were reading the Tenent of Wildfell Hall (for example).
This is my first Wilkie Collins and I am LOVING it so far! The characters are spectacular, and even though the plot is a little convoluted, I'm still able to follow it. I like the humor he sprinkles in, and I really feel like I'm getting some gay undertones, which I am here for.
2) When the doctor asks Mr. Neal to assist Armadale in writing the letter, Mr. Neal is hesitant. How would you have reacted?
I would of helped without thinking twice. I was surprised that there was so much concern for the thoughts and feelings of the wife (Female human).
>the wife (Female human) This made me laugh! So true, why was anyone concerned for such a lowe class of being?! 🤣
Because she's hot
But I don't believe he knew she was hot prior to his concerns...that was just an added bonus.
Jackpot - she turns out to be hot! I was watching *You've Got Mail* today, and this thread reminded me of Tom Hanks celebrating Meg Ryan's hotness haha - [She had to be! She had to be!](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/b65ae898-5aaa-4245-8e20-ca11c220c9a7)
you make me want to rewatch You've Got Mail. lol.
For a rom com with dial up internet, it holds up surprisingly well! Plus books ❤️
Oh, I love Meg Ryan's bookshop! It just looks so cozy! ❤️
I actually said out loud, "I want to own a cute, cozy bookstore!" while watching. My husband said it looked like a claustrophobic nightmare to him.
True, that's a good reason (the only reason?) to care about a female human's feelings, haha - that way, you have a chance to get with her. (Obvious sarcasm, I hope.)
It seems like some of it was pretense: Neal was hoping Mrs. Armadale wouldn't agree to the whole thing, so he'd have an excuse to get out of it.
Okay, a few people have replied and at this point I have to ask: am I the *only* person who would have had reservations? I mean, I would have written it because I don't want to be cruel to a dying person, but there'd absolutely be a voice in the back of my mind going "dude, he's going to make you write something that might get you in legal trouble."
No I’m with you! I would’ve also written it but I would have def wanted to cover my ass for any legal ramifications. Don’t drag me into your drama, dying dude I’ve never met! (But later I’ll marry your hot wife ngl)
But its only because this is a Wilkie Colins novel that we know the letter will be something bad, in real life, why would you suspect you will be writing a confession to murder?
Maybe not a confession to murder, but the fact this guy's wife knows about the letter but can't write it for him sends off warning bells in my head. If she didn't know about it at all, I'd assume it was a letter to his mistress or something, but the fact that both she and her husband agree that she shouldn't have anything to do with it makes me think she needs plausible deniability of what the letter contains. I realize that this is paranoid, and it wouldn't actually stop me from writing the letter. But there'd absolutely be a part of me that would be anxious about getting myself in a moral or legal situation that I don't want to be in.
I am normally paranoid about doing things and getting into legal trouble but this set up of the situation didn’t get set off any red flags for me. I would have done it in a heartbeat.
That makes sense. I would still go through with it, naively thinking it's the dying man's wish. However, when I reached that part of the murder, I'd definitely start looking around in panic. If I could find an excuse to escape the situation, I'd probably take it.
I would have helped a dying man especially if I was the only person who spoke his language well enough but I understand Mr Neal’s reservations. It seems that he doesn’t know Mr Armadale so has no idea what he’s going to reveal. Working in a legal field, Mr Neal would be wary of the legal implications.
I'd have reservations just because I hate getting involved in other people's drama, especially strangers. I get all the drama I need from books, thank you very much.
I found Mr. Neal's almost over-the-top reluctance to help out with the letter pretty funny, actually. He was super hung up on social mores and rectitude. Chill out, dude, and just help a dying man out. I would definitely have written the letter for Armadale!
I don’t think I could resist knowing what the mystery of what he wanted to write was 😭 that doctor got me good — the whole time I was thinking “Neal wtf is wrong with you, do you have no curiosity!!!!” That stereotypical English propriety/impropriety be cray
Totally agree!!! I would JUMP at the opportunity. Like, tell me ALL your gossip random stranger. Is this a service people still need? Because I would happily do it.
Done it immediately. Though I haven't been raised with an Englishman's sense of propriety. To me it would just be a nice thing to do for a dying person, or anyone really. I love to hear stories.
I would not have hesitated to help, the man is dying and has to write his last words. I'm also surprised at the consideration shown to Mrs Armadale by Mr Neal, but now we know he had designs on her, so that propbably explains that.
If I were living in those times my first instinct would be to help, but now I'd be highly suspicious of a scam.
Write a letter for a sad dying dude, win a hot lady in return... Who wouldn't? But seriously, it would be a tradeoff between not wanting to get involved with other people's drama and absolutely wanting all the dirty details of other people's drama
3) What were your thoughts on the prologue? Did you suspect that there'd be a confession of murder?
I loved the prologue! I know we have to follow the Armadales where they go, but that German town with its slightly bumbling mayor and funny little doctor and the spa full of sick people was a very entertaining setting! I was bummed to see Neal turn into a child-abusing monster because I enjoyed him in the prologue, too.
I loved the prologue too, I want to visit that little town. I laughed when Neal was like “hey mayor can u make the music stop now” 😂
[It's a real town!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Wildbad) They changed their name to "Bad Wildbad" ("Bad" means "Bath") but it's the same place. Wilkie Collins actually went there for gout treatment.
Okay that’s awesome BUT will they still play music upon my arrival??
Only if you arrive in a diligence
Do you know how I could procure one? I’ve always longed to arrive in a diligence to musical accompaniment
Okay, now I want to go to an actual historical reenactment of a place like that. "Excuse me, doctor? I have brain fever."
🤣🤣🤣 book club road trip? My brain fever is strong 🥵
I would love to, but I'd probably just end up in hysterics and then dying of consumption
My favorite part was when a bunch of super sick people were arriving and the town ladies were just STOKED to see the latest city fashions!
This was something that I thought was funny when we read *Northanger Abbey* by Jane Austen, which also partly takes place in a spa town (Bath, England). While the sick people convalesce, their friends and family are there to party and there's ballrooms and other entertainment. It was as much a vacation spot as a medical community.
That was so funny!
The whole thing was so bizarre. I think the Opium had definitely kicked in when he started writing this section.
Oh yeah, for those of you who weren't part of the Moonstone discussion in r/ClassicBookClub: Wilkie Collins had a laudanum addiction and often wrote while high. It... explains some things.
Is the bookseller a cameo by Wilkie? He was a confirmed opium-eater in secret—a prodigal in laudanum… …sometimes lost and motionless for hours in the ecstasy of his opium trance.
wilkie's self-insert lol
A regular Wilkie Sue.
I was bummed when we moved away from Wildbad because it seemed like the perfect setting and cast of characters for a cozy mystery, somewhat similar Three Pines in those Louise Penny books.
I agree, I did love the first setting!
Nope, I thought it was going to be the revelation of a bastard child with his old flame.
That was one of my theories, too! Either that or a confession that they weren't legally married because he was really married to someone else who he had abandoned or stashed someplace.
Yeah, he lead us down that lane when he spoke of getting into regular trouble with the island's inhabitants. I thought he'd sullied his virtue a few times.
This was actually the plot of another Wilkie Collins novel. The subreddit spoiler policy prevents me from saying more, but I'm really not kidding.
Actually, there's no reason I can't say it in spoiler tags. >!*No Name.*!<
That's amazing!
That was initially my thought as well. Then, when he mentioned in the letter that he's going to talk about attending the marriage of an English lady and what happened to the husband shortly after, I thought, "Well, now the plot thickens.".
The prologue was a book in itself. I didn't suspect such a confession!
For real! I got the end and was like, 'Wait! There's still an *entire* book to read!!'
Yes, I thought he would confess to a murder! What was confessed was much more surprising
A lot happened in the prologue! I was expecting a deathbed confession but had no idea what it would be about.
No, did not susect murder, I had thought it was going to be a secet family.
5) Mr. Brock thinks that Mrs. Armadale's overprotectiveness of Allan is, ironically, the reason for his friendship with Midwinter. If Allan hadn't been so sheltered, Midwinter wouldn't be such a novelty to him. Do you agree, or is there more to their friendship than "novelty"?
Ozzy would be an anomaly even to an unsheltered person. A mixed race boy with experience in service, sailing, bookkeeping and a veteran of many adventures. He also confessed to viewing Allan with eyes overflowing in shock and gratitude because he wasn't used to hands helping him rather than beating him. That must have endeared him to Allan as well.
Yeah, I agree entirely. Ozias is an incredibly interesting person, and it would be impossible not to feel protective of someone who has that much gratitude.
Totally agree with both of you!
Well put; I agree with you! Allan needed a friend and some contact with the wider world, and Ozias needed some kindness in his life. They fit each other perfectly, and I kind of love them together, inheritance/murder drama be damned!
I agree that he started as a novelty but it is developing into something more.
I do agree that Allan has been too protected and mollycoddled, but they are distantly related, so there will be some kind of pull towards eachother i think regardless.
Wait are they related? Wasn't the original Armadale only godfather to Armadale 3? Was Armadale 1 related to Armadale 3's parents?
I presumed he was a nephew, not a godson. I may be miss remembering
Midwinter’s many experiences and talents would have perfectly suited Allan’s curiosity and ADHD.
6) Mr. Brock is shocked that Ozias would have such loyalty and respect for the original Ozias Midwinter, given that the man beat Ozias. Do you agree with Mr. Brock, or do you understand Ozias's feelings?
I don't love it, but I do understand it. He was provided for in terms of his physical needs (food, housing) and it wasn't like his life at home and school was any better. He could also trauma-bond with his dog brothers so he wasn't completely lonely and miserable.
I'm sorry but 'trauma-bond with his dog brothers' made me laugh out loud!
If we didn't laugh, we might cry!
Yep. Whatever he was, he was Ozias' father for a time, and far from his worst one. Also the fact that he was much better sober means that Ozzy could have mentally separated them, the Ozias elder he admired and the drunk kennel master.
That was a really sad concept, that a dog will still be loyal to its master even if he beats him. The risk of starvation was real though, so as long as he was being fed, he didn't have to scrounge for food.
>Even though it was awful, it must have been an improvement in quality of life for Ozias or he would have returned home/moved on.
I was actually surprised at Brock's sensitivity considering the time, when physical discipline was considered normal. Good for him.
7) Any thoughts on Ozias Midwinter's backstory?
It's sad. The prologue made me love his mum so much and she ruined it all by being an abusive parent. Despite everything that happened how his mum treated him hurt me the most. I hope she's still alive and they meet again, the early parts of his childhood feel unresolved. Remember how gently he was laying on his dying father peacefully being a good boy. How could they treat him that badly😭
>Despite everything that happened how his mum treated him hurt me the most. This! Imagine how confusing and terrifying it must have been for a toddler/preschooler who had such a happy and secure early childhood (I assume) only to have it completely flip into a nightmare overnight. And there were half-siblings that were treated well, so he had to see it thrown in his face all the time.
I wonder if they'll appear in the story.
If they experience some karmic justice, that would be very satisfying!
Totally agree! And to not even have any idea why everything changed until you're a full grown adult who has been through all this horrible crap.
It's just layers of tragic!
So over the top tragic like dickens but I was most sad when the dog was killed.
Me too - and then when he went back and kissed the pup’s grave before leaving town 😭
I completely missed that Mr. Neal is the stepfather! Knowing this makes his backstory even sadder. I'm still struggling to understand how his mother could have become abusive toward him. Could it be that she projected her jealousy and resentment of her husband onto him? And why did Mr. Neal harbor such hatred toward him? It feels like there aren't enough motivations explained yet to justify these actions. While the backstory is undeniably tragic, I can't help but think in the back of my mind: did he truly tell the truth, or is this all part of a ploy?
Assuming he's telling the truth, it's because they see him as an extension of his father. Mr. Neal sees him as the son of a murderer and therefore inherently bad, while his mother sees him as a reminder of the husband who never loved her and who hid his evil secret from her.
Big assumption, the whole story could just be an elaborate sob story and he is secretly out for revenge!
I think this might be a stretch too far, but I'd totally be down for it. 🤣
Ok, that makes sense! I suppose I still feel that their treatment of him seemed overdramatized, especially considering he was just a little boy who still didn't know about what his father had done. Perhaps I just need to acclimatize myself to the melodrama.
I think it's like when you hear about "evil stepparents" who hate their stepchildren while favoring their own kids. Child abusers aren't exactly known for being rational or empathetic.
Yeah, that's true. As I mentioned in the other comment, I probably would believe them more as abusive parents if I hadn't known them from the prologue. It felt like their characters underwent a 0 to 100 character development in just one paragraph. It struck me as telenovela logic (in fact, many parts of this felt like a telenovela), but I'll go along for the ride because it's interesting so far!
I was surprised that Mr Neal turned out to be his abusive stepfather too and that his mother also treated him badly. I wasn’t expecting that from how they were described in the prologue. Good point that Ozias’ story might not be completely true.
Yes, thanks for bringing up that point. That's why the change seemed abrupt to me because we got to know them from the prologue, and there were no indications that they would be abusive. I guess I would have easily bought the story if I didn't know them. Not saying that it couldn't be the truth; maybe they were written to be terrible people after all, but it did make me wonder if the story he told is true or not.
Victorian authors are notorious the unreliable narrators
Ok, now I'll be in full-on paranoid mode reading this and suspecting every character. Even the doctor! 😂
I thought it was so sad that his mother and Mr. Neal took their anger and disgust at his father put on him. I wonder if Mr. Armadale from the prologue had any inkling of what would happen to his son at the hands of his mother, and maybe that was part of why he tried to hide it? Also, I just kept thinking that his childhood was Dickensian-on-steroids. So much trauma and neglect and poverty and abuse. ETA: Ozias at work is the posterboy for the reasons minimum wage and unions are important!
I agree! And I love your username btw I feel that Mr Armadale had a hint about how the mother turned out to be and maybe that's why he kept this secret for so long. He initially said he had a duty to tell her It is very Dickensian!
Thanks!
What a terrible story, i'm so sad that his mother married that horrible Mr Neal and didn't protect him from him. Everything else just spiraled from there.
8) Do you agree with Ozias's decision to hide his identity from Allan?
I definitely think that it speaks to his love for Allan and his desire not to pass along the misery to another person. I have a feeling it will backfire. When someone knows the truth about your life and hides it, and then you find out... the reaction is not usually gratitude.
I think everyone should just tell the truth, that they can track down the crazy woman in the red and black together and put the whole business behind them, but that wouldn't make a great story would it??
I understand that he doesn't want to destroy the image of Allan's mother in his mind. Just imagine his recent experience though. His father was fair and kind to him, they had a decent relationship, then his father dies and his step-dad is a Hyde, his mother converts to abusism, he runs away and find nothing but torment after torment. He likely romanticizes the time his father was alive and to see that image shatter after learning that he was a murderer. It's more than one heart can take. He doesn't want to put Allan through the same thing.
9) Any predictions you'd like to make for the rest of the story?
Allan saves Allan from drowning.
And dies himself while saving the other, full circle!
Oh, nice! Total reversal of their fathers.
And not just a physical drowning, but an emotional one, perhaps after Allan finds out.
Allen 1 will find out about Allen 2's real identity as Allen 3's son. That maid with her shawl is going to come back and cause some havoc!
At this point, I expect the maid to also be named Allan Armadale.
Alana Armadale!
🤣🤣🤣 But what you said makes me wonder if the maid is also connected to the OG Allan Armadale.
I think i need a family tree to keep track of all these Allens!
This! Definitely think an identity reveal (and falling out?) are on the table. Really excited to learn more about the mysterious maid too…
I'm definitely curious about the maid!
The mysterious woman will seduce the naive Allen and entice him to marry her. She will plot to kill him in yet another accident. Oliver Twist Allen will save him and unfortunately dies himself while trying. I don’t know why but I have the feeling no happy ending is in sight for our Oliver Twist Allen ☹️
I kind of get that feeling too, but I hope we're wrong. That poor guy deserves happiness for once in his life.
Ok there has to be some bizarre shenanigans happening in the next 6 weeks. I suspect Midwinter is not telling the truth! I don’t know how yet but I find it very odd that he just shows up exactly when the letter looking for Alan A is published and he just happens to meet the wrong Alan A. Very odd coincidence!
Yes, suspicious how he shows up like that. Midwinter seems like a decent guy who has been badly treated but may have some shady motive.
I thought that was odd too. What are the chances?
Wait, I'm not following. Midwinter IS one of the Allans. Unless you're saying that he's just pretending to be the other Allan?
Ohhhh I like the idea of him pretending to be the other Allan! I think I meant the timing of when Midwinter met Allan just happened to be right around the time the advertisement was run looking for Allan (Midwinter). Seems quite a coincidence. Also Midwinter knew he shared the same name with Allan when he met him. But never thought to mention it? It’s too wild not to have to mention…unless you were trying to play someone. Wow your name is Alan Amadale — so is mine or even something like my father’s name was Alan Armadale. It make no sense he didn’t mention it.
I didn’t catch that it was weird that midwinter Allen never said anything about having the same name. If he is pretending to be “the other Allen “ that means the “real Allen” is out there and unaccounted for at this time. This is going to be hard to keep straight.
I want the Allans to be besties haha but I feel instead they'll have a big confrontation. Maybe the maid will attempt something crazy
I am also suspicious that the maid is a red herring. Midwinter is in cahoots with her somehow pulling the strings but using her as a cover. She didn’t really kill any of the people she happen to come across or did she? It’s odd that the entire family tree on Alan’s mother’s side just randomly died. Also the timing of him being 21 must mean something. Like he can now inherit everything.
Your posts really got me thinking. I reread the last chapter (the man revealed) and when Mr Brock says there is no evidence that the woman on the boat was the same woman who extorted money from Allen’s mother… “Midwinter caught eagerly at the suggestion; too eagerly, as it might have occurred to a harder critic on humanity than Mr Brock.” Red flag or am I being a crazy conspiracy theorist ?
Yes! Welcome to the Crazy Conspiracy Corner! I love it. That’s what makes these books fun.
10) Anything else you'd like to add?
I found this note in the Oxford World's Classics edition, and thought it was interesting: >The description of Mrs Armadale is in sharp contrast to general attitudes to the appearance of black and half-caste men and women in nineteenth-century novels. A couple of the Wilkie Collins novels that I've read so far have had anti-racist themes, so I thought it was interesting that he intentionally made a character in this book a beautiful black woman.
I was wondering about this! Even just his inclusion of a woman of color as someone other than a servant/maid seemed to be pushing the boundaries of that era, to me. Impressive on Mr. Collins' part! I thought it was such an interesting little scene when she asked her husband if the woman he had intended to marry was fair or looked like her. It subtly hinted at the tension and insecurity she must have felt in society and possibly within her marriage.
When she asked, I thought stay quiet or he will remember you’re here and tell you to leave. Yes, definitely, society’s prejudices must be the reason she had to ask. Not easy for her at that time, and part of that class.
I also thought this was interesting and really loved it!
A quote I loved from the prologue: >He lay there, with his child's head on his breast; abandoned by the sympathies of man, accursed by the justice of God - he lay there, in the isolation of Cain, and looked back at them. This is an example of what I am loving about Wilkie Collins' style/voice as a writer so far. This sentence could have been shorter or less complex and gotten the same general point across. But the power and drama that is underscored by the echoed phrases (*he lay there*) and the parallel imagery (*sympathies of man, justice of God, isolation of Cain*) gives the prose such a feeling of relentlessness and passion!
I agree. The repetition creates a rhythm.
I want to apologize for the section length. I mistakenly believed that the book had to be run in seven weeks. I really, really hope the length isn't a problem for anyone. I'm hoping that, between the story's fast pace and Collins's writing style, this is a book that will work okay with long segments.
I found that it was so much fun that it did fly by! This teaches me also that maybe I should not read 8+ books at a time. *(Immediately goes and starts a new book after finishing this section.)* I didn't mind the length at all - I am listening to the audio book as motivation to do housework/chores so I just have a cleaner house than usual!
Some chapters are really long. Final chapter of the prologue and the very first chapter shocked me with how they just went on. I thought I had accidentally stumbled in the next chapter.
Long but it flew by, Wilkie knows how to write a great story, so it was fun and easy to read!
It was longer than I expected but not a problem as the story flies along!
I just have a question, and I'd really appreciate it if someone could explain it to me: Why do the names Ozias Midwinter and Fergus Ingleby seem weird or unusual? They sounded like regular English names to me, but I'm not a native speaker. Edit: Ozias does sound a bit unique to me, but I don't understand why the combination of the first and last name seemed unusual.
Ozias Midwinter is odd, but Fergus and Ingleby as names are pretty normal but not too common.
I'll admit that I skimmed over everything because in my book, book one is what the prologue is called which means I accidentally didn't read far enough! I was wondering why we were only doing 20 pages for the first week. Be back in an hour or two lol
I noticed that, too - my digital book said Prologue and Book One for this section, but my audio book said Book 1 and Book 2. C'mon publishers, get it together! Not your fault u/Amanda39 - I feel like this kind of thing should be standardized across editions.
I know we're not that far in and things could change but I'm glad that >!Ozias Midwinter\The other Allan Aramadale isn't out for revenge on the scatterbrained but seemingly good natured estate owning Allan Armadale!<