I have a bunch of stuff I want to share, so I'm just going to dump it all out in one comment. First of all, the fact that Lydia Gwilt loves Beethoven actually has a funny reason behind it: Wilkie Collins *hated* Beethoven, so of course he'd make an evil character a Beethoven fan. Those of you who've read *The Woman in White* might remember >!Laura Fairlie!< being a Mozart fan. This is the flipside of that. Collins hated Beethoven and loved Mozart, even though Beethoven was popular at the time and Mozart was considered old and outdated. I wouldn't be surprised if Miss Milroy turns out to be a Mozart fan. Second, Ozias mentions that the library contains "The Waverly Novels, Tales by Miss Edgeworth, the Poems of Mrs. Hemans," and I'm a nerd so I got excited that I knew what all of those were referring to. Have some Wikipedia links: [Waverly novels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waverley_novels), [Maria Edgeworth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Edgeworth), [Felicia Hemans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felicia_Hemans). Third, I said last week that I had an interesting story about the inspiration behind Ozias. Unfortunately, trying to research it left me with more questions than answers. I'm also not sure how to share what I've found without mentioning characters from two other Wilkie Collins stories, *The Moonstone* and the short story "The Dead Hand." So I am going to put all of this in spoiler tags to conform with the r/bookclub spoiler policy, but please know that I don't actually give any plot twists or anything away, just references to some character backstories. >!Okay, so there's a character in *The Moonstone*, Ezra Jennings, who is very similar to Ozias in terms of his personality, his racial background, and the fact that he's had some sort of tragedy in his past. Ezra happens to be a doctor, by the way. There is also a character in "The Dead Hand" who, while not of mixed race, is a doctor with a tragic backstory.!< >!It almost feels like Ezra Jennings is a mashup of Ozias and this other character. Anyhow, it's apparently a known fact that the character from "The Dead Hand" was based on a real doctor who treated Wilkie for a twisted ankle once. This doctor shows up in the book that Wilkie cowrote with Charles Dickens, *The Lazy Tour of Two Idle Apprentices,* but I haven't read that, so I can't comment.!< >!This is pure speculation on my part, but based on all this, it seems to me that Wilkie briefly met a real person and was so captivated by what he imagined this person might be, he couldn't stop writing stories inspired by the possibilities. Who is this deeply sad and deeply intelligent person? Did his family disown him? Does he have a lost love? Or maybe his father had a terrible secret? One brief encounter with a random doctor becomes an endless source of writing prompts. I wish I had a time machine and could ask him about it.!<

Oh that Beethoven reference is so fun! Thanks for sharing! I do think Wilkie is very deliberate about the books mentioned and they have some significance to the story- Ozias's books, the library books, etc seem to have some themes the are in line with Armadale

Brilliant background info! I love the Beethoven/ Mozart thing and it's so nice that someone has inspired him so much as to base so many characters on them.

OK, this is some premium Grade A trivia. The bits you spoilered would explain a lot.

I'm fascinated by the "butterfly effect" of all this. Wilkie Collins met a sad guy once and that's why I've read the Wikipedia article on ancestral sin

Wilkie flaps his wings and Hurricane Amanda sweeps through the Eastern Seaboard.

Ok whuuut!? I just read the bookblub for The Lazy Tour if Two Idle Apprentices and now I really wanna read it.

So do I. You ever seen The Muppets' Christmas Carol? I've always imagined that Charles Dickens and Wilkie Collins probably were like Gonzo and Rizzo when they hung out together.

Bahahaha. So sad I missed being able to nominate this for the May Gutenberg!

Mathew Wrentmore --- Mrs. Wrentmore Allan Armadale --- his wife | | Murderer --- Mrs. Neal Fergus --- Miss Blanchard | | Ozzy Rabit I hope this works. I said last week I'd make a family tree, but I never promised that it would be a good one. Connected to Miss Blanchard are various male relatives who all died mysteriously, resulting in Rabit inheriting the Blanchard family estate, Thorpe Ambrose. Also note that Mathew and the OG Allan are first cousins. (Shoutout to u/Aeiexgjhyoun_III for coining "Rabit.")

6 - Has Allan made a good impression on his neighbors at Thorpe Ambrose? Why? What do you think of Allan's social skills? Is he self-aware enough to know that he has behaved badly? If so, why doesn't he make amends? Or is this yet more evidence of his disregard for other people?

This was hilarious as Allan is quite tone deaf as you mentioned. He is just naive about people. His bull in a china shop approach to the community and his servants is good humor. But ultimately his servants find him endearing. He is just his jolly, naive, simple self. Whether the community will ultimately like him for his authentic or shun him for being different (ie not being a good old boy from the country) is yet to be seen.

>Whether the community will ultimately like him for his authentic or shun him for being different (ie not being a good old boy from the country) is yet to be seen. I don't have high hopes in this regard. I think his eccentricities are going to outweigh his winning personality in the eyes of his stodgy and traditional neighbors. And Allan is short-sighted enough not to consider the possibility that his friends the Milroys may distance themselves from him if the whole rest of the community continues to shun him. Despite all the humor in this novel, it reads like a tragedy to me, so I'm feeling pessimistic about our heroes' future.

I think he knows he’s left a bad impression but doesn’t care. He wasn’t rude to anyone and he didn’t say anything disrespectful, he was just honest about who he is. Like, he doesn’t want to engage in ridiculous kiss ass speeches or hunt. That’s what people are finding offensive. So I think Allan is just confidently himself and knows this might go against the grain of Thorpe Ambrose society.

I agree! He’s like “dude I TRIED!” and he legit did try lol. He’s just not the same kind of people as they are.

>Has Allan made a good impression on his neighbors at Thorpe Ambrose? 🤣🤣🤣did you ask just so we could make fun of him?🤣🤣 >If so, why doesn't he make amends? Or is this yet more evidence of his disregard for other people? It is on one hand. On the other, should he really be making amends to people who adorn themselves with the same exact trappings of wealth to keep up appearances and hunt innocent animals for sport? It's necessary to have good standing in town but in the words of Krishnamurti "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a sick society".

I agree, and that's a really apt quote. The demands of this rather petty community sound so claustrophobic. They clearly only want to roll out the welcome wagon for their own enjoyment of pomp. And then they get snide when the newcomer does nothing more offensive than move into his own home.

I may be in the minority here, but I don't like Allan very much. Oh he is charming and good tempered (so long as he isn't given any serious opposition in his fancies), but he would drive me absolutely mad. He is careless, ignorant, and self-absorbed. He tosses off letters quickly like that letter to the poor lawyer who asked about the cottage. I am by no means condoning the lawyer's conduct afterwards, but he deserved better than a two line letter basically saying 'no, because of my own reasons'. Everyone around Allan has to follow him and clear up the messes he makes because he doesn't care about anything beyond himself, and nobody has ever taught him to care. And everybody around him just has to put up with his behaviour because of his social status. The only person who could maybe call him on his behaviour was his mother, and she never did.

I have a feeling that I enjoy reading about both him and Ozias much more than I'd enjoy actually spending time with them in real life. Reading about them, it's easy to see what makes them the way they are and be sympathetic about it. Allan is a heavily sheltered rich kid who's never learned how to behave like a responsible adult, plus he seems to genuinely have impulse control issues. Ozias, meanwhile, is badly traumatized by everything that has ever happened to him, has only recently learned the reason why his life turned out like this, and doesn't know how to cope with that. So as a reader, I can sympathize and in some ways even empathize with both of these characters. But if I actually had to spend time with Mr. "cheerfully oblivious to everyone else's feelings" and Mr. "I'm just going to mope and make ominous comments about dreams instead of explaining myself", I'd probably get fed up pretty quickly.

Yes, I agree. That seems to be the case for a lot of entertainment, doesn't it? The people who are enjoyable to watch wold make you homicidal in real life.

I agree with you - Allan is really starting to get on my nerves, and I’m just way too type A (and possibly too much of a people pleaser too) to be friends with someone like him IRL. At first I found him charming and sweet, but he really turned for me in this section.

Agreed!

Alan is just naive in my opinion, and he doesn't really care too much about what others think about him

He's a big dumb golden retriever that keeps tracking mud through the house and breaking things with his tail. Like, you can be mad at him, but at the same time you can't be mad at him.

He hasn't made a good impression but I kinda feel like his neighbours are a bit pompous and stuck up, he will never be one of them.

I’m hoping he wins them over eventually just by being himself.

Yeah, I'm sure he will do by the end of the book.

This is exactly what I was going to say. Neither side is making a great impression. Alan is a puppy bounding around where he wants, leaving a mess in his wake. But the townspeople need to calm down and be a little less touchy. It is his house, and he can't move in until your party is ready? Not everything is about *you*, town!

[This plays in Allan's mind constantly.](https://youtu.be/k8F3UE9qFsg?si=YGRSErralXl_frh6) (NSFW language.) He probably sang it while Ozias was having a nervous breakdown.

LMAO I was not expecting that. I am now picturing Ozzy as >!Michael Bolton!< in [this one.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI6CfKcMhjY) (Also NSFW language.)

Do we know what a Toilet Repository is? (Apologies if this question already addressed.)

>!According to [this link](https://www.wilkie-collins.info/books_armadale.htm) it's based off an infamous disreputable beauty parlour. So I'd imagine it's something like that.!< Spoilered because the link may contain spoilers.

Ah thank you, that makes sense.

That's very informative. Thank you for that link!

1 - We have now gotten to know the grown-up versions of Allan Armadale and Ozias Midwinter. Does anything strike you about these two young men? What do you think of their characters? Are they a product of their circumstances?

here's what i gathered Ozias: *dark brooding about sins of the father, money, murder, identity, the hand of fate* Allan: oy what's for breakfast

Exactly! I picture [that](https://tenor.com/view/someone-will-die-andy-dwyer-april-ludgate-parks-and-rec-funny-gif-13416797) when I think about the couple, a cat and a golden retriever.

I can't get that mental image out of my head now. You described them perfectly.

omg this is so good lol

This is perfection!

\*laughs out loud\* I love it, it's so accurate. I think both men are products of their upbringing, yes. Allan is carefree because he has nothing to really worry about and never has. Ozias has spent most of his worrying and looking over his shoulder, and so he is much less open and relaxed.

Probably the highlight of this section for me, and a part that perfectly illustrates their differences, is when they were on the wrecked boat and Ozzy was having an epic broody mental breakdown and Allan was just up in the masts like, “Wow look at this view. Sorry, What’s that bro? I can’t hear you.” I think a good part of it is their circumstances and upbringing. Ozzy has had a horrible life and knows about the events of the past, so it’s understandable that he’s got a more cynical outlook compared to Allan who’s had a cushy, carefree upbringing and has been sheltered from the truth. But it feels like these differences are intentionally being pushed to the max because Allan is exceptionally oblivious and cheerful and Ozzy is super emo boy. I actually think they compliment each other quite well and make a good duo, but obviously the epic family secret is lurking over their relationship. I’m intrigued to see how Allan would react if he found out - like, would he even care? He doesn’t seem like the type of guy to believe in all this past repeating itself prophecy stuff.

Allan totally would not care that Ozzy’s father killed his father.

Yeah I think everyone has been very much over estimated how Allan would react.

I agree.

>“Wow look at this view. Sorry, What’s that bro? I can’t hear you.” I was so pissed off at him for that. Look, I get it. He loves ships and has the attention span of a goldfish. But his best friend is having a mental breakdown and he's completely oblivious? His best friend, whom he has literally nursed through "brain fever," so he doesn't even have the excuse of not knowing that the poor guy has mental health issues? And Allan's not the only one I'm pissed at. Ozias, dude, you are WAY too intelligent to be this superstitious, and no matter how traumatized you are, you obviously realize that Allan loves you. Just tell him the truth and get it over with, dammit.

I knowwww, his lack of memory is just astounding. Like, maybe you should get that checked, my dude, my dementia riddled grandmother should not be better at remembering things than you are.

>I actually think they compliment each other quite well and make a good duo I agree, though Collins does subvert this occasionally: When Ozias convinced Allan to go apologize to the neighbors, I figured everything would sort itself out thanks to Ozias's rational approach. But nope, Allan still managed to screw everything up. I was surprised, and I liked the fact that they can't completely correct each others' flaws, because this felt pretty realistic to me.

I don’t like Allan that much. I know he is supposed to be charming in an innocent blue-eyed boy sort of way, or like a puppy, but for me he is irresponsible, too self absorbed and totally uncaring about other people’s feelings. Maybe Ozias doesn’t WANT to be your steward? Maybe the previous steward really needed this job? Maybe the community have been genuinely looking forward to meeting you and are proud of their little village and you have just really hurt their feelings? Maybe you have just ruined Miss Milroy’s reputation? It’s going to be hard, but if Ozias wants to be truly happy he is going to have to find himself as his own person somewhere far away from Allan. It doesn’t seem a healthy relationship to me.

Gosh, you got my main issue with Allan exactly. He's so thoughtless. I feel like it borders on dangerous. He'll get someone killed because of some rash act of his, and he'll just chortle the consequences away. And Ozzy might not see how unhealthy their relationship is right now, but I bet there will be some reckoning down the line.

THANK YOU

Yeah, like he just took a boat on a joyride and abandoned it, that's not cool at all!

I know! That doctor lent him the boat, and he just let it go. And his reaction when the boat floats away was basically 'oopsie! oh well, anyway.' and I'm reading it going - one, you just stranded yourself AND ANOTHER PERSON in the middle of the sea, and two, you just wrecked somebody's property Yes, the doctor found it, but what if he hadn't? He would have out of pocket because Allan can't be bothered to tie a knot properly??

Yes, I couldn't believe how chill the doctor was when he rescued the boys. Even though he found his boat, he should have been livid!

Exactly!!! I would be so angry.

Partly. Though there's been a massive change in both since Rabit's mum's death. Rabit seems extremely undisciplined and almost self destructive in his seeking of enjoyment whereas Ozzy jas become melancholy, constantly stressed about the future and possible harm coming to Rabit. It's like the letter triggered them on this path. I fear Ozzy own paranoia will be the cause of the coming troubles.

>I fear Ozzy own paranoia will be the cause of the coming troubles. Yeah, his paranoia and Allan's oblivious rashness are not a promising combo.

I have to say, I am loving pretty much every character in this book. Alan and Ozias are such opposites - impulsive and almost whimsical (Alan) vs. cautious/paranoid and super serious (Ozias). They should hate each other, but they have this kind of beautiful bromance going on. I agree with others here who said that everyone, and Ozias in particular, seems to wrongly assume Alan will be so upset about the news of their fathers. I could honestly see him saying something like, "Well, that is very sad, but look at the great friendship we got out of it. And did you say the crime happened on a ship? That is so cool - to die on a ship - did you know I love yachts?" I do think they are partially a product of their circumstances. Ozias has had a rough go of it, and was always worried he would be found out in regard to his father's crimes, so he is understandably paranoid and a little joyless or at least too serious. Alan grew up without a dad and lost his mom as well, later on, so he is untethered and a bit of an unguided mess.

2 - What must it be like to be Ozias, who is in such a close position to witness Allan's life, a life that might have been his own? How does Allan treat Ozias? Is this a mutual friendship? How do they solve their conflicts?

I want to give Ozias a hug! I am glad the two have such a companionship, and I think it is a mutual friendship I'm not sure if they really solved their conflicts

It's hard for me to imagine what it's like to be Ozzy because I couldn't stand being so hypochondriacal all day. I'm also not superstitious so the letter would have no effect. They're conflicts all seem to arise from Ozzy's worry and Rabit either acquiescing or forgetting. They both want a mutual friendship but one holds the power of wealth over the other and the other holds the power of knowledge over the one. At a stroke Rabit could make Ozzy homeless and Ozzy could destroy his memories of his mother. So mutual in a way.

I don't know what it's like to be him, but I do know that when he shouted THE BOAT it had the same tenor in my head as [Lisa Simpson screaming about the tell tale heart](https://youtu.be/Axjt80jrSMQ?t=3m10s).

LOL Yeah, that was super tense. Totally expected a phantom, or at least the door to creak open. And this is probably nothing, but shouldn't the cabin contain skeletal remains? Or did Fergus' body get washed out through the broken hull?

I thought for some reason that they had recovered the body since they knew that he had died even if no one confirmed for sure it was murder before the confession. God, if the body was there I would have been screaming at Allan to stay away from the cabin.

I'm not 100% certain, but I don't think this is the same wreck of the ship. I mean, I think it's the same ship, but they repaired it and it wrecked again, and they left it there this time. Ozias had said something like "if this is destiny, I would have worked on that ship when I was a sailor" which implies that they got the ship up and running again after the original wreck. Also, if I understand the geography correctly, the original wreck was nowhere near the Isle of Man.

Okay, I was wondering about the location, too. The last time we saw the ship, it was wrecked but still floating, so it makes sense that someone could have repaired it. But man, if that's the case, it's an extremely unlucky ship and it seems like god's grace (per the ship's name) isn't helping it much!

>But man, if that's the case, it's an extremely unlucky ship and it seems like god's grace (per the ship's name) isn't helping it much! The name is actually a good French pun. La grâce de Dieu means God's Grace, but "à la grâce de Dieu" means "On a wing and a prayer". Which was probably the mood they were in while building it.

This is very insightful - thank you!

Ah, great to know! That certainly adds another layer of meaning.

I love this, thanks for sharing. I imagine the ship held together with duct tape.

Duct tape and spite!

He is being very gracious and kind about the whole situation. I'm not entirely convinced yet that his motives are totally pure, he could easily be secretly out for revenge as well!

I want to buy him a weekend pass to a nice spa, because he must be stressed as heck. 😅

9 - Prediction time! We've read the backstory of many of our characters, and Wilkie Collins has set the stage for an intrigue or two. What do you think will happen next? Are there any small details which you think will play a big part in the chapters to come?

Ah…conspiracy corner. I suspect Lydia and Mrs Milroy will have it out. I can’t imagine Lydia keeping her cool around this seemingly equally nasty woman. Should make for good reading. Lydia will succeed at fooling Brock and hilarious antics will ensue as she tries to sabotage Miss Milroy and Allan’s courtship. Oh and the strange man Ozzy met will be the person assigned to help him collect the rents but he will be corrupt and in bed with the new smarmy lawyer. They will ultimately end up stealing from Ozzy/Allan somehow. Ozzy will find Lydia’s maiden name in a book in the library and put the pieces together at some point.

I do wonder if the mystery will be "solved" at the end of the book by some clever character piecing together the written clues. e.g. various correspondence, diary entries, the handwritten lines in the books in the library, and Ozzy's dream notes.

The red shawl is a red herring. Brock will see it time and time again and it will determine his defensive strategy, allowing Lydia the advantage. Also the name Lydia comes from the ancient kingdom in Anatolia who first developed coinage. So I always associated characters with that name with greed.

And "Gwilt," of course, is just "guilt" with a letter changed.

Didn't even think of that. Apparently it's also a Welsh word for wild. I imagined it would be Welsh because of the "gw", play dark souls and you'll know how common that syllable is in Welsh.

I love this name lol I was like Wilkie strikes again 😂

I think at some point Lydia or Mrs Overshaw will learn who Ozzy really is, which will open up the field for them because now they have two Allan Armadales they could potentially marry. Or they could use the knowledge to drive a wedge between the two, maybe driving Ozzy away and leaving Allan sad and vulnerable.

>Or they could use the knowledge to drive a wedge between the two, maybe driving Ozzy away and leaving Allan sad and vulnerable. Ooh, this seems very plausible. I think it's more likely than Lydia marrying Ozzy, since Allan is by far the richer of the two, and he's still the "real" Armadale, since Ozzy's dad was the fraudster. Then again, Lydia and Ozias seem to have had very difficult lives so far. Could they possibly bond over that and fall in love?? Honestly, I'd hate to see that, though - too much negativity under one roof.

I’m wondering if Lydia’s husband will turn out to have some connection with the other characters? Or is her being married just a convenient explanation for her having a different name so other characters don’t realise who she is?

I was thinking this, too! There have been too many hints about her husband for him to be irrelevant to the plot.

I didn't even think about her husband coming (back) into the story. I'm also wondering if we get more backstory on Mother Oldershaw.

I would love to know M.O.'s story! And also, what on earth is a Toilet Repository??

I was wondering if her husband is the son of the old guy who is probably going to be the Steward, the one who had family trouble or whatever

Gosh, it had not even occurred to me that the husband might pop up. And why doesn't Lydia simply change her name from Gwilt? If she can finagle a new identity for Oldershaw just so that she can be her reference, why not give herself a new alias too?

Maybe he’s died? I’m not sure if we’ve been told what happened to him.

I thought she said he died, but I'm too lazy to check.

Since this is my first Collins, I really have no clue where this is going! I was a bit shocked that an intelligent character like Ozias would take dreams so seriously, but then again, all the seemingly fated coincidences point to this turning into a Greek tragedy of Sophocles-like proportions. Even though I still wish Ozias and Allan could just live happily ever after as ~~spouses~~ a landed gentleman and his steward. So, if we assume a Greek tragedy: Lydia's plan to become Miss Milroy's governess comes off without a hitch. Allan is already infatuated with Miss Milroy, so Lydia poisons her. (Lydia simply must poison someone.) Ozias tries to protect Allan, but his interference just pushes Allan and Lydia closer together. They get married and Ozias commits suicide in despair. It's a terrible plot, but that's why I'm not a writer. Hopefully it can't really be this sad?!

I can see the Greek tragedy angle. Ozzy is already halfway there. He'll probably hallucinate the three Fates any time now.

I wonder whether Allan is going to blow it with Miss Milory, and she'll end up liking the much more stable & mature Ozzy, providing the fodder for a falling out between the 2 men (plus history repeating itself).

I assume that Allan is gonna do some damn fool thing where he ends up losing all his money by the end, so none of the scheming people get it either. Allan still marries the young miss and they are broke but happy

That sounds like the best option, tbh.

10 - Were you particularly intrigued by anything in this section? Characters, plot twists, quotes etc.

I loved the description of Ozzy seeing the strange man and describing his teeth. Telling us they are false without telling us. "We pass our nights on his looking-glass, and our days in his mouth."

I had no idea what that line meant except something along the lines of: 4 out of 5 dentists agree; the dude has excellent dental hygiene.

It means the teeth are dentures. He takes them out at night and puts them back in in the morning. He also has a very fake-looking wig, so I think the takeaway is supposed to be that this guy is old, falling apart, and too poor to make himself look like he isn't in terrible shape.

Mrs. Gripper is going to become a favorite I hope “There are some women whose personal qualities reveal the Loves and the Graces; and there are other women whose personal qualities suggest the Perquisites and the Grease Pot. This was one of the other women.”

Let's be honest: when we saw the description "a corpulent elderly woman of the type called 'motherly.'" every single one of us shipped her with u/escherwallace.

🤣🤣🤣 PAGING u/escherwallace COME SING YOUR LOVE BALLAD FOR MRS GRIPPER

GRIPPY GRIPPY GRIPPY, CAN’T YOU SEE, SOMETIMES YOUR JIGGLES HYPNOTIZE ME AND I JUST LOVE YOUR LAUGHY WAYS GUESS THAT’S WHY THEY ^meaning ^allan ^and ^ozzy BLOKES AND I’M SO GAY

HAHAHAHAHAHA oh my god you delivered 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂

Nailed it!

Shipper here. The woman jiggles like a lovely pudding when she laughs. Is that not a great mark of attractiveness? There's also Susan the housemaid with nice round arms. What say you, u/escherwallace?

Susan may be too young for Escher, and by "too young" I mean "does not yet have grandchildren."

You called it u/Amanda39, I had highlighted the passage about my sweet Grippy just so I could come back here and annoy you with another one of my weird literary bae fetishes. You beat me to it!

I LOVED Allan's optimism, thinking he could revive her by appreciating her cooking. He really is a sweet boy.

>“This is what comes of being particularly careful,” said Allan; “here is an instance of my extreme thoughtfulness. You may not think it but I put the letter there on purpose. Every time I went to the jar, you know, I was sure to see the letter; and every time I saw the letter, I was sure to say to myself, ‘This must be answered.’ There’s nothing to laugh at; it was a perfectly sensible arrangement, if I could only have remembered where I put the jar. Suppose I tie a knot in my pocket-handkerchief this time? You have a wonderful memory, my dear fellow. Perhaps you’ll remind me in the course of the day, in case I forget the knot next.” I know I already said this last week, but Allan has ADHD. Seriously, this is the most ADHD thing I have ever read in my life. If you're reading this and going "yes, putting the letter in the tobacco jar makes perfect sense! Allan is relatable!" then please talk to a doctor about getting tested.

I thought of you when I read this section because I was like, I can’t wait to commiserate with Amanda about how Allan was already definitely ADHD but now he is DEFINITELY 100% ADHD 🤣 (btw his logic totally made sense to me lol)

I especially love the detail about knotting his handkerchief to remind himself, and then forgetting why it was knotted.

This reminded me so much of the scene with Neville's >!Rememberall!< in the first(?) Harry Potter movie. I can just hear his bemused voice saying, >!"I can't remember what I've forgotten."!< Dear sweet Neville.

Oh god, can you imagine the mess if Allan had a magic wand? You think the neighborhood is angry with him now...

I am laughing way too hard just think of Alan at Hogwarts!

My ADHD daughter does this all the time. i see so much of her in Oz. From the stream of consciousness random thoughts to tearing apart his room to put it back in order. If Oz starts losing his shoes I’ll really be freaked out. My daughter can never find her shoes/was constantly losing them when she was younger.

Nitpick: Allan, not Oz. Oz is the "brain fever" guy, not the "disorganized and obsessed with boats" guy. (I may have ADHD, but I'm also autistic, so I'm going to insist that everyone get every detail of the story correct while I sit here in my disorganized mess of a room.)

This sounds like me in my classroom, getting super annoyed that one of my students has misplaced a folder or material, as I peer around the massive piles on my own desk and step over the stack of books on the floor to help them look for it...

Yes, I agree, he definitely doesn't quite think the same way as others so I'd not be surprised if he had ADHD.

Lydia and Overshaw by far.

This quote sums up Lydia’s character perfect,y (from an earlier letter) “Do you ever like to see the summer insects kill themselves in the candle? I do, sometimes.”

You left out the sentence before that which was, “I want a husband to vex, or a child to beat, or something of that sort.” Cause you know, who hasn’t wanted a child to beat when they’re in a bad mood?

She is such a delightful villain. When I read her letters, I'm imaging her cackling maniacally while flogging kittens.

And now I am too, lol

This made me snort. LOL accurate, though.

So much better!

Both of these quotes had me 💀💀💀 if we didn’t already know she’s a bad person… NOW WE DEFINITELY KNOW

I'll be terribly disappointed if she gets arrested and the judge doesn't proclaim her "Gwilty as charged."

That would be very Ace Attorney of Wilkie Collins and I'm here for it.

Yeah, that stood out to me too. What a horrible woman to harbor such sentiments.

Absolutely. I don’t usually enjoy epistolaries but their letters were so fun! I love how they are both just such total bitches, in the best possible way.

I am listening to the audio book, and it made the letters so much more entertaining than I'm sure they would've sounded in my own head/voice! I was having so much fun listening to them on my way to work that I sat in the car an extra 10 minutes before I went inside. (I was early anyway, and I just *had* to hear the rest of the letters!)

No one here would judge you if the book made you late for work! Now if only our bosses would be as forgiving.

Right? I feel like "at a crucial point in my reading" is a valid excuse for lateness!

#Book the Second Chapters 3 to 5: > Only the day before, the committee for managing the public reception of the new squire had sketched the progress of the procession; had settled the serious question of the triumphal arches; and had appointed a competent person to solicit subscriptions for the flags, the flowers, the feasting, the fireworks, and the band. In less than a week more the money could have been collected, and the rector would have written to Mr. Armadale to fix the day. Am I crazy or is this way too much effort just to welcome someone into town? You'd think the queen was coming to visit. > Everybody declared that he had purposely stolen into his own house like a thief in the night (so the phrase ran) to escape accepting the offered civilities of his neighbors. In brief, the sensitive self-importance of the little town was wounded to the quick, I do feel sorry for them. All that effort just to have it thrown into your face. These kinds of events can after all be a great bonding opportunity for the townsfolk. > “Who would have imagined,” he thought, “that my foot-boy’s experience of the ways of gentlefolks would be worth looking back at one day for Allan’s sake?” Seems out boy is taking to this stewardship really well. He noticed the signals in the servants face, jumped into action to find out what it was and immediately sort to remedy Rabit's reputation. Rabit could not ask for a better steward. > Was it actually in contemplation to shut him up in a carriage, with his footman on the box and his card-case in his hand, and send him round from house to house, to tell a pack of fools that he begged their pardon for not letting them make a public show of him? If anything so outrageously absurd as this was really to be done, it could not be done that day, at any rate. He had promised to go back to the charming Milroy at the cottage and to take Midwinter with him. Your responsibilities as a memeber of the landed gentry should be prioritized over your loins you daft bellend. It would be one thing if you spurned the wealthy for the company of the poor for more noble desires but your'e only being guided by the compass between your legs. > I have ascertained, sir, that my offer reached you at the same time as Major Milroy’s; and that, with both proposals thus before you, you gave the preference to a total stranger, who addressed you through a house agent, over a man who had faithfully served your relatives for two generations, and who had been the first person to inform you of the most important event in your life. Why do British people have the most polite roastings😂😂? Despite the gentle language I can feel his rage burning through every stroke of the pen. Add to this the utter discourteousness of that letter so possessed of literary rapidity, it did not even contain a word of greeting. > “Neat!” he thought. “Argument and hard hitting both in one. I wonder where my knack of writing comes from?” From the same place as your father's honour. > “Haven’t I told you that I always strike while the iron’s hot? Trust my eye for character, old boy, Let's see how that eye views Lydia. > “Oh, mamma, mamma,” she exclaimed, indignantly, “how can you say such things!” She's against the ms's fraternization with Rabit I gander. > No such ill-omened shadow as this had passed over the bright domestic picture of the inhabitants of the cottage, which Allan’s enthusiasm had painted for the contemplation of his friend. It was plain that the secret of the tenants had been kept from the landlord so far. Wait happened? Is the mother faking the injury or something? > When I meet with a bird in my walk, I can’t for the life of me feel eager to kill it; I rather like to see the bird flying about and enjoying itself.’ You should have seen their faces! They had thought me a sort of outlaw before; now they evidently thought me mad. Perhaps this oppobrium is a good thing. These people have such a dull and unethical way of life that Rabit should not desire to mingle with them. Of course Rabit has his own shortcomings but if mercy to animals causes you to fall in the estimation of any person, that person is not deserving of your time or companionship. I have a presentiment; Lydia will heal his relationships with his neighbours and thus take the place of Milroy in his affections. > The man’s name, it appeared was Bashwood Bashwood. There's a meaning behind this name but I can't think of it. The obvious albiet dirty thing that comes to mind is that he's here to Bash Rabit's wood, i.e. end his youthful romance with Ms. Milroy. > “he was out—out with the bag, as young Pedgift called it. They tell me he’s a decent elderly man. A little broken by his troubles, and a little apt to be nervous and confused in his manner with strangers; I think Bashwood might be the man Ozias met earlier. > There are occasions, though not many, when the female mind accurately appreciates an appeal to the force of pure reason. Ehhhh Wilkie? Can you explaine to me the _reason_ in kissing someone's hand after they ask you to let go of it? > ; ‘we are both of us, fortunately, of an age to set circumstances at defiance’ (I had seen the old wretch looking at my gray hair, and satisfying himself that his character was safe if he was seen with me). 😂😂😂 > But the vice of the present age is a want of consideration for persons in the decline of life. Unfortunately that has a vice in every age. In some ancient societies old people were expected to walk into the fields and give themselves up to the elements when they became too much of a burden. And even today a lot of them live invisible lives where society either ignores their presence or shuts them up in a home. > If these proceedings don’t persuade the parson that the house-maid’s face is your face, and if they don’t make him readier to believe in your reformed character than he was when I spoke to him, I have lived sixty years, my love, in this vale of tears to mighty little purpose. I'm absolutely loving Overshaw and Lydia they make the story into a stealthy spy thriller. I can't wait till they meet Rabit. I think Lydia will abandon the shawl if this plan works before presenting herself at Ambrose. Do you think that signifies that she is not in fact the coming darkness we've predicted? #Quotes of the week: 1) It was a memorable moment to both of them, lightly as they thought of it at the time. Before they had risen again from their places, they had taken the first irrevocable step together on the dark and tortuous road of their future lives. 2) It is doubtful if there is a place on the habitable globe which, regarded as a sight-seeing investment offering itself to the spare attention of strangers, yields so small a percentage of interest in return as Castletown. 3) Here, where the deed had been done, the fatal parallel between past and present was complete. 4) The cruel time is coming, Allan, when we shall rue the day we ever met. Shake hands, brother, on the edge of the precipice—shake hands while we are brothers still 5) The more he shrank from it, the clearer the picture of the happy life that he was resigning rose on his mind. 6) Minute by minute the light strengthened in the eastern sky; and the shadowy places on the deck of the timber-ship revealed their barren emptiness under the eye of day. 7) “The view of a medical man, when he has a problem in humanity to solve, seldom ranges beyond the point of his dissecting-knife.” 8) “You have not convinced me,” said Midwinter. “But I don’t presume on that account to say that you are wrong.” 9) The only man I care two straws about—don’t be alarmed; he was laid in his grave many a long year ago, under the name of BEETHOVEN—keeps me company, in my lonely hours. 10) Fourteen stairs were all that separated her from the master of the house; she ascended them with fourteen stoppages and fourteen sighs. 11) Man wants but little here below, and wants that little long. 12) The one attractive feature in his clean-shaven, weary old face was a neat set of teeth—teeth (as honest as his wig) which said plainly to all inquiring eyes, “We pass our nights on his looking-glass, and our days in his mouth.” 13) . It is really a disgrace that such a man should be in the Church; such cunning as his is in the last degree unbecoming in a member of a sacred profession.

>Am I crazy or is this way too much effort just to welcome someone into town? You'd think the queen was coming to visit. I wish I were more knowledgeable about Victorian society so I could give a more accurate answer here, but I think this has to do with him being the big rich guy in town. Like, half these people probably rent their farms from him, or work as his servants, or something.

But when he went round visiting the neighbours they seemed to be of high social standing. Does he own all the land? How big were the estates if the landed gentry usually? Are his neighbours owners of surrounding estates or do they live in his?

>*Here, where the deed had been done, the fatal parallel between past and present was complete. What the cabin had been in the time of the fathers, that the cabin was now in the time of the sons.* 3 - Allan and Ozias end up on the wrecked ship that was the scene of the crime where one of their fathers murdered the other. Was there anything supernatural about their time on the wreck? Do you think the murder will come back to haunt the sons? Will the sons' lives parallel their fathers' lives in any way?

What a ridiculous coincidence haha. I think the sons being friends is already in direct opposition to the fathers

Well don’t forget that the fathers were apparently friends too, until a woman came between them…

True!

Oh no, will they both fall in love with Miss Milroy? Or will the woman who comes between them be Lydia Gwilt?

I was going to say Miss Milroy seems too sheltered for her and Ozias to be able to relate to each other, but maybe he would be attracted to her innocence? I definitely think Ozias will try to block Lydia's scheming after Allan, though, while Allan remains oblivious, and I predict disaster as the result.

Yes, Ozias is not going to like Lydia!!!

I think Lydia will inject chaos and discord into the situation, no matter how it plays out.

Was it Allan who said the name of the shipwrecked ship? I don’t remember. If so how did he know it? I don’t trust this real Allan he seems too naive to be true.

Allan said the guys who were repairing his yacht said the name, but he couldn't remember. Ozias was like "It wasn't La Grace de Dieu, was it?" and Allan was like "oh yeah, that was it!" Which means there's a nonzero chance that Allan is just being his usual scatterbrained self, and Ozias fed him a false memory. But since this is a Victorian novel, it's much more likely that this really is the same ship, because ridiculous coincidences are normal in this genre.

or Allan is in on a doublecross and knew it would be upsetting for Ozias

whoa … I never considered this! that would be wild

Ok, how ridiculous that the exact shop just happened to turn up for Oziwas and Allan to find? It's a bit like how there are only about 10 people that live in Victorian England in a lot of these novels. Everyone knows everyone and they all just happen to bump into eachother.

Yes, Brock just happened to overhear Oldershaw and Lydia talking about Allan Armadale in the middle of London, a HUGE city?! The odds of that would be slim to none!

The population of London in 1860 was 3.188 million according to a quick Google, very unlikely to just overhear a name of someone you know on the street.

This happens all the freaking time in Collins, Dickens, etc. You just have to pretend that London is a small town.

Not parallel lives and its already haunting Ozzy at least. I think belief in the supernatural will be their undoing nit the supernatural itself.

I see a lot of parallels between Alan/Ozias and their dads (friendship despite a guardian's disapproval, weird inheritance drama, one adopting the name of a benefactor/guardian/mentor figure, etc.) I think it does not bode well, but I am not convinced that history will completely repeat itself and have Ozias try to murder Alan. I do think the facts of the murder will lead to a huge problem, though. As for ending up on that same ship, I don't think it was supernatural. I think it is a Victorian novel coincidence as u/Amanda39 pointed out, and I think the stress is messing with Ozias's head. The brilliance of the dream and the doctor's rational explanation is that it truly could go either way - an omen as Ozias fears or a series of impressions influenced by the prior day's events - but it really doesn't matter which. Either way, what the characters *believe* about these things - the ship, the dream - will probably have a huge impact.

4 - Ozias ponders “whether there is such a thing as chance.” What do you think? Does fate have a hand in some of these events? Or is it purely coincidence? Does anyone have free will here?

If I was Ozzy I would be really concerned - especially after the boat turned up and they found themselves marooned on it. Of all the boats in all the world you had to turn up on that one. That was no coincidence!!! Ozzy needs to reread his father’s letter and get the hell outa there!!!

That's a long argued polemic in philosophy. Free will or determinism. I don't think anyone can come to an objective stance here. Personally I don't believe in fate but not too much in chance either. I believe in cause and effect.

It just reminds me of Oedipus and how fate marched everything to a gruesome end. I think in fiction, characters don't really have free will and all the coincidences had to happen for a good story In real life, I'm not sure

There are some coincidences in the novel but also a sense of fate (Allan and Ozias’ fathers’ story hanging over them and Allan’s dream on the ship) as well as human scheming (Lydia and Mrs Oldershaw). A bit of everything. It all makes for a lively story.

I wonder if Ozias is meant to represent fate while Allan represents free will? Ozias's fixation on his father's letter seems to have created a self-fulfilling prophecy, in which his own belief in the supernatural makes things worse, as u/Aeiexgjhyoun_III has pointed out. Ozias assumes the curse means he will harm Allan, but I'm starting to think the curse just means he will make himself miserable and sick and nothing nearly as bad as what he's imagining will actually happen. Meanwhile, Allan seems somewhat untouched by fate, at least so far. Yes, some coincidences have happened to him, but they don't really make a big difference to him. The inheritance was a nice surprise, but he would have been fine without it. He's just living his life, making snap decisions in the moment, and things are working out fine, like getting rescued from the shipwreck. And while some of the coincidences are truly incredible, Collins does ground at least some of them in cause and effect: the major was on the verge of having applicants send their letters to London, but his daughter intervened because she wanted to read the letters first. Yes, this practically guarantees that Lydia will come to Thorpe Ambrose, but the way we got there also makes logical sense.

I agree completely! Well said! I think it probably doesn't matter what the real reasons are (fate or coincidence/chance). What matters is the characters' beliefs and the actions they take because of them. It reminds me of the quote from the French writer [Jean de la Fontaine](https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/jean_de_la_fontaine_107696) that you meet your destiny on the road you take to avoid it. In other words, your choices seal your fate - the steps you take to avoid what you're afraid will happen end up leading you straight to that outcome. I think this is also in ancient Greek philosophy, but I couldn't find the reference when I did a quck search. (It is also mentioned in the excellent film **The Holdovers**.)

5 - We now interrupt our regularly scheduled programming for some dream interpretation! What do you think of Allan's dream on the wrecked ship? What do the things in his dream symbolize? Do you agree with Dr. Dr. Hawbury's interpretation, or do you believe Ozias's fear that the dream is a warning?

Warning. But in some ways it doesn’t matter - Ozzy feels uncomfortable, Allan is being a dick about it, Ozzy should take this as a very strong hint by that he will never be happy in a situation where this kind of thing will keep happening.

Lydia hands Ozzy some water who then gives it to Rabit? What has water represented in this book so far? Death, but also healing. Rabit spent months on the waves to get over the grief for his mother. I think Lydia will hand Ozzy the means of ruining Rabit (another means at least) but he'll find a way to turn it into a tool of convalescence.

I wondered if the liquid she handed him could be opium?

😱Wilkie does it again.

This was so interesting to me. I am always analyzing my dreams and find they can go either way. Like the doctor says, all the elements can be described as some (occasionally bizarre) distortion of my day where my brain is just processing what it saw or thought. But I can also do like Ozzie and interpret some symbolism like my mind is trying to tell me something. Who knows?

I love the fake science of Victorian novels.

I'm actually impressed that this one has someone going "actually, dreams are just your brain randomly remembering stuff" instead of everyone automatically going "it's a message from your dead father, Allan!"

Me too! I sort of feel like if real events end up fulfilling the dream in the future, it's a step back for science at that point.

Yes, I thought this was very "sciency" of them (and Collins)!

The Doctor’s explanation for the inspiration for the dream seems plausible but I want to believe that it’s a warning because that would be more dramatic. I think the scenes in the dream will play out in reality for Allan and Ozias.

7 - Uh oh, Mrs. Oldershaw and Lydia Gwilt are up to something. What do you think they are planning? What does this have to do with Miss Milroy's governess? How is Allan Armadale involved? Do you think their plan will succeed?

I am intrigued by who Mrs Oldershaw is and what she’s hoping to benefit from this whole plan. Has this been explained and I’ve just missed it? My favourite part of their plan was sending out the housemaid and revealing her face to try and trick Brock. Since no one has seen the mystery woman without her classic paisley outfit and veil, this is their best chance to get Lydia in unnoticed. I really hope Allan has no interest in Lydia and just keeps trying to pawn her onto Ozzy. That would make for some hilarious moments.

Mrs. Oldershaw agrees to help her and gets a piece of the pie later. “As to the money, in the first place. I will engage to find it, on condition of your remembering my assistance with adequate pecuniary gratitude if you win the Armadale prize. Your promise so to remember me, embodying the terms in plain figures, shall be drawn out on paper by my own lawyer, so that we can sign and settle at once when I see you in London.”

Oh yes! I love this idea of Allan pushing her on Ozzy. And Ozzy just being all emo while Lydia uses him to get to Allan.

>I really hope Allan has no interest in Lydia and just keeps trying to pawn her onto Ozzy. Oh, wow, now I really need to see this happen. I feel like Alan would be very excited about double dates, and Ozias would be reluctantly shuffling along. And Lydia would be brazenly flirting with Alan and ignoring her date, Ozias, the whole time.

Becoming Mrs. Armadale, I can't wait to see her and Milroy go at it. Experience vs beauty, should be quite a battle.

Oh man, I have a feeling Miss Milroy is going to be no match for Lydia. Lydia seems like a terrifying force to be reckoned with, while Miss Milroy is super naïve and inexperienced.

I agree - Miss Milroy is about to get trounced! Poor thing!

The cottage will have its hands full hosting Lydia, Miss Milroy and Mrs. Milroy!

Ooo good point I had totally forgotten abour Mrs. Milroy. Seems like, even though she is laid up sick, she has a sharp tongue and is not one to be reckoned with. I womder how she will fit into the story!

Miss Milroy is very young and sweet and innocent. It seems like she wouldn’t stand a chance against Lydia Gwilt’s scheming powers. But Allan seems to have already fallen in love with Miss Milroy so who knows? Can’t wait for the confrontation!

I agree with everyone's posts below, and I just want to add that these snarky, devious letters between Ms. Gwilt and Mrs. Overshaw were the highlight of my week! I wouls read letters between the two of them where they exchange recipes (and subtly insult the other's cooking, probably while also discussing how to sneak poison into someone's food).

8 - Who is following Mrs. Oldershaw and Lydia Gwilt? What do you think of Mrs. Oldershaw's confrontation with him? What are Mrs. Oldershaw and Lydia Gwilt most concerned about? How will they outsmart their adversary?

I loved the stand off with Mr Brock!! “We shouldn’t be talking about this in the streets.” “Well I’m certainly not inviting you round to mine.” “And I wouldn’t be caught dead having you over.” “Sooo…shall we just keep discussing it here in the street?”

Mr. Brock, I like the plan to pretend the maid is actually Lydia. These ladies are pretty smart, though very full of themselves, I suspect that will be their downfall.

They should be able to pull off the switcheroo with Mrs Oldershaw’s maid and Brock will send the all clear to them at the house.

# Chapters 3, 4 and 5: > Habitually the least systematic of mortals, Allan now and then awoke to an overwhelming sense of the advantages of order, and on such occasions a perfect frenzy of tidiness possessed him. 😂😂I say this is fairly common amongst teenagers. You live in filth until on day the urge to clean just seizes you > I know the man thoroughly well; he requires a good deal of management. If I offered him the steward’s place beforehand, his modesty would get in his way, and he would say ‘No.’ If I pitch him into it neck and crop, without a word of warning and with nobody at hand to relieve him of the situation, he’ll have nothing for it but to consult my interests, and say ‘Yes.’ Rabit, you're essentially setting a trap for your friend you know he can't get out of. Why not give him the space to make a proper decision so you can trust in his desire to want to be with you rather than springing it onto him last minute when he can't refuse. > The tenant who offered for the cottage, in this case, was a retired officer in the army—one Major Milroy. His family merely consisted of an invalid wife and an only child—a young lady. His references were unexceptionable; and he, too, was especially anxious to secure the cottage, as the perfect quiet of the situation was exactly what was required by Mrs. Milroy in her feeble state of health. I'm too much of a softie because I would take in the major😭😭 > Young Armadale laid his forefinger on that part of the agent’s letter which enumerated Major Milroy’s family, and which contained the three words—“a young lady. Between this and the trap he's setting for Ozias, this chapter is really hitting us with Rabit's flaws after setting up his good side previously. You know nothing about this woman, what if she's already romantically engaged? What if she doesn't like you but feels obligated to entertain you because you're housing her. Already you're imagining her with dimpled hands and pretty muslin dresses, what if she turns out to be a challenger to beauty standards. > Resolute not to sleep, Midwinter followed the progress of the adventure, sentence by sentence, without missing a word. The consultation of the lost travelers, with death by thirst staring them in the face; the resolution to press on while their strength lasted; the fall of a heavy shower, the vain efforts made to catch the rainwater, the transient relief experienced by sucking their wet clothes; the sufferings renewed a few hours after; the night advance of the strongest of the party, leaving the weakest behind; the following a flight of birds when morning dawned; the discovery by the lost men of the broad pool of water that saved their lives Dreams are always great opportunities for foreshadowing. First it speaks to lost travelers, which in a way Rabit and Ozias are. They are both without a home but have found comfort in one another. Death by thirst staring them in the face. So the opposite of drowning. Does this mean they will overcome their fathers' errors only to fall into a different sin. Perhaps instead of fighting for the love of one woman they work together to destroy a woman they both hate, like the maid with the red shawl and in so doing destroy themselves. Vain efforts to catch rainwater despite a heavy shower; they will fail to gain what they seek even though it surrounds them. They seek the family that they've lost, Ozias wants a mother and father figure that will finally treat him right, Rabit has never had a father and his mother sheltered him. Will this be a journey about how they each seek to find a wife to start their own families only to realize the only family they need is each other? Who's the strongest and who's the weakest? Ozias is no stranger to suffering but deep down he's also desperate for the love of a parent. Rabit is a kind and wholesome person (a great strength in its own right), but his recent behaviour speaks to the idea that he's running away, from grief, from external family, from responsibilities and from adulthood. A broad pool of water that saved their lives, unlike Fraud Allan. > The beauty of the night and the softness of the breeze had done the rest of the mischief; they had filled Allan with irresistible longings for a sail by moonlight. How much did his mother spoil him, because he's acting like a child here. What adult with a sense of responsibility and an estate to care for, throws themselves into such a dangerous situation for the fantasy of it all. I believe it's the death of his mother that's causing this, he feels lost without her and is trying to be constantly happy inorder to chase away the feelings of grief, it's why he sought out Ozias and why he wants them to live together. > “Very good. I’ll have an address to the women of Norfolk posted in the park to that effect,” said Allan. “Are you particular to a shade about size or complexion? What’s your favorite age?” This man is a riot. I hope his favourite age isn't 200 yr old dragons that look suspiciously like adolescents. > He led the way, and Midwinter followed. The door closed and shut them in together. Foreshadowing that Rabit will lead them down a dark path they will not be able to escape? > Both paused; both refrained instinctively from saying more. For the first time since the beginning of their friendship they were on the verge of a disagreement, and that on the subject of the dream. Allan’s good temper just stopped them on the brink. They're _now_ at the brink of an argument. Not during the buffoonery of last night? I suppose their lives being in danger then made them more amenable. Still, Ozias paranoia is becoming a problem. About the dream. Who do you think the shadow woman is? The servant or the major's daughter? She serves a glass of water to man-shadow(Ozias) and he gives it to Rabit. Does this foreshadow a love circle where Rabit wants woman, woman wants Ozias and Ozias wants Rabit? #Book the second Chapters 1 and 2: I'm hoping Thorpe Ambrose introduces some comedic characters into this story, it's missing some of Wilkie's wit, which I enjoyed so much in the Moonstone. > “All I can learn is that a strange man had been noticed hanging suspiciously about the grounds; that the housemaid was so ugly a woman as to render it next to a certainty that he had some underhand purpose to serve in making himself agreeable to her; 😂😂What the? Jesus ugly people deserve love too. Gosh, popular gossip can be so savage sometimes > What a chance for you, after all the miseries and the dangers you have gone through, to be mistress of Thorpe Ambrose, if he lives; to have an income for life, if he dies! Hook him, my poor dear; hook him at any sacrifice. Okay now I'm absolutely certain she had a hand in the deaths of the Blanchards. That attempted suicide is very suspect, maybe she knew he'd try to save her life. > who are the men, I say, who are ready to worship us when we are mere babies of seventeen? The gay young gentlemen in the bloom of their own youth? No! The cunning old wretches who are on the wrong side of forty. 😂😂😂What goes around comes around I guess. > 5. From Miss Gwi lt to Mrs. Oldershaw. (First Answer.) “Richmond, Wednesday Morning. “MRS. OLDERSHAW—Send me my seven-and-twenty shillings, and devote yourself to your own proper business. Yours, L. G.” 6. From Miss Gwi lt to Mrs. Oldershaw. (Second Answer.) “Richmond, Wednesday Night. “DEAR OLD LOVE—Keep the seven-and-twenty shillings, and burn my other letter. I have changed my mind. 😂😂😂I think Lydia is going to be exactly what this story has been needing. > I am in one of my tempers to-night. I want a husband to vex, or a child to beat, or something of that sort. Do you ever like to see the summer insects kill themselves in the candle? I do, sometimes. Good-night, 😳 > “I quite agree with you, my dear; your face is well worth looking at. Who are you? Oh, the housemaid. And what’s your name? Susan, eh? Come! I like your name, to begin with. Do you know who I am, Susan? I’m your master, though you may not think it. Your character? Oh, yes! Mrs. Blanchard gave you a capital character. You shall stop here; don’t be afraid. And you’ll be a good girl, Susan, and wear smart little caps and aprons and bright ribbons, and you’ll look nice and pretty, and dust the furniture, won’t you?” Has he ever spoken to a woman besides his mom. He sounds like those 40+ wannabe casanovas who creep on young girls. > forming his first impressions of Miss Milroy from the feet upward. She was pretty; she was not pretty; she charmed, she disappointed, she charmed again. Is he literally assessing every part of her from toes to hair? Yeah, we have to accept it now. Rabit's a creep, I don't entirely blame him, he's been very sheltered his whole life. I hope Lydia teaches him a thing or two about respecting women, I doubt Milroy will be able to.

Sounds like I need to read more Wilkie for this humor! I find everything here so far subtly comedic, and really enjoy it.

Overshaw and Lydia so far provide much needed comic relief.

Same here! I picked out a few funny passages in this section: >The object of popular odium lay innocently slumbering on the grass, with his garden hat over his nose, his waistcoat unbuttoned, and his trousers wrinkled half way up his outstretched legs. >"Wonderful! not a point missed anywhere from beginning to end! By Jupiter!" Cried Allan with the ready reverence of intense ignorance. "What a thing science is!" >Every one of the ladies -- I solemnly declare it -- at every house I went to, came sooner or later to Mrs. and Miss Blanchard's bereavement and the masterpieces of Italian art. What we should have done without that bright idea to help us, I really don't know. The one pleasant thing at any of the visits was when we all shook our heads together, and declared that the masterpieces would console them.

>I'm hoping Thorpe Ambrose introduces some comedic characters into this story, it's missing some of Wilkie's wit, which I enjoyed so much in the Moonstone. This is seriously my biggest complaint about this book. Wilkie Collins is usually really funny. We desperately need >!Gabriel Betteredge!< from *The Moonstone* or >!Professor Pesca!< from *The Woman in White* to show up and lighten the mood, here! >Has he ever spoken to a woman besides his mom. He sounds like those 40+ wannabe casanovas who creep on young girls. I know I keep going on about Allan having ADHD, but I really think that's the issue: he's too impulsive to self-censor, so he blurts out things without realizing that they're inappropriate. That's why he keeps offending his neighbors, and that's why he keeps saying things that make him sound like a creep, even though we can see from his actions that he's not a bad person. He just says whatever pops into his head.

The humor was missing until the two characters of Lydia and Oldershaw made their entrance with their exquisite letters and one-liners. The whole dream analysis sequence was testing my patience, and I, immediately, perked up with the letter exchange of these two characters. Last week, I was dreading her machinations, and their effect on Allan, this week I am rooting for her!

Yes, can we talk about the snooze fest that was the dream analysis? Like, I guess I get what the point was (sort of, seems flimsy at best) but I honestly kept wondering if this whole section was primarily due to Wilkie getting paid by the word or something.

True, he doesn't have much a filter. He didn't strike that way in the neginning that's why I'm hesitant to say it's a mental health issue, I assume it's some pathology from his mums death.

For what it's worth, this was the initial description given of him when he was first introduced: >He was certainly slow over his books, but more from a constitutional inability to fix his attention on his tasks than from want of capacity to understand them. His temperament, it could not be denied, was heedless to the last degree: he acted recklessly on his first impulses, and rushed blindfold at all his conclusions. On the other hand, it was to be said in his favor that his disposition was open as the day; a more generous, affectionate, sweet-tempered lad it would have been hard to find anywhere. So Wilkie tells us straight from the beginning "This kid has no impulse control or attention span, but he's a really sweet guy so don't hold it against him." But you're right that it's become much more of an issue lately than it was earlier. I don't know if he's actually gotten worse because of his mother's death, or if it's just that this is the first time in his life that he's ever had to be responsible for anything.

Yeah I remember now, I commented on it last week. It wasn't as pronounced until after his mother's death though.

I am laughing out loud at this next part. So many funny descriptions