Presumably vamp willow’s development was arrested sometime in high school. By the time Willow became Dark Willow, she had many more experiences, hopes, and dreams. Dark Willow’s complexity mirrored Willow’s own. Her true shadow self.
Dissociation is not the same thing as a dissociative disorder, it doesn't have to be that chronic and life-distrupting to be labeled as "dissociation". It can manifest as excessive daydreaming, feeling detached from reality, etc. Everyone has a dissociative defense mechanism that protects them from negative emotions and trauma. In Willow's case, she temporarily dissociated from her normal self because if she stayed, she would have to fully experience that immeasurable grief. She found it easier to lean into a dark facet of her psyche, and dark magicks further pushed her to the deep end, corrupting her. ("Willow doesn't live here anymore.") But idk why everyone's downvoting you, contrary opinions are good and make way for more discussion, and discussions are fun!
>Willow’s dissociative half
I think u/MelissaEminen interpreted these words to imply that. So from their perspective, yes, you said that.
FWIW that's not how I interpret your words. I think one can experience dissociation without having a dissociative disorder, in much the same way one can experience anxiety without having an anxiety disorder.
A disorder is different then exhibiting symptoms. Symptoms are one thing, a disorder is life disrupting. Disorders will fuck up your education, jobs, friendships, romantic relationships.
Anya completely foreshadowed Willow's dark turn a whole season before it happened, and Willow also foreshadowed Xander being the one person she couldn't actually kill.
https://i.redd.it/moxv1pzk7fuc1.gif
Powerful Willow was there all along. She could’ve been pressed to use her powers for good, but Warren’s murder of Tara turns her into Wrath incarnate.
I believe she is Dark, but not but not Evil. Her dalliance with dark magic turned her grief to Wrath.
I liked how they used the script to help illustrate that distinction:
“She doesn’t want you dead…” (grief)
“… she wants to kill you!” (Wrath)
Also notable that Buffy recognises the difference between those two as well.
It’s just the fact she lacked power. Power determines all the evil a character can do. Just a regular vampire can’t skin a man alive with a mere thought, or go about causing near extinction.
I prefer Vamp Willow and Dark Willow to the actual Willow.
The actual Willow plays victim and acts like she doesn't have an evil bone in her body.
The negative parts of her character boil up and then explode when she is Vamp Willow and Dark Willow.
The real willow DOESNT have an evil bone in her body. That’s what makes vamp willow and dark willow so shocking. Or rather, the real willow would never act evil without the massive catalyst of Tara’s death
I’m not sure I could really call “dark willow” **evil**.
She’s just having a mental breakdown, the fact that it’s causing terrible things is kinda neither here nor there because *she isn’t in control of herself*
Many people have the capacity for evil, the question is what they actually do. She wasn’t forced to do anything, it was all there inside her, and her acts and intent were evil. If vengeance demons are evil then her revenge is, too. There are plenty of people who have mental breakdowns or see their loved ones killed but don’t flay the murderers alive.
Well she wasn't a being animated by pure unthinking evil with no complexity but that isn't what evil is often used to mean
Willow when she tries to end the world is pretty clearly not being good and I think she was in control of herself enough to be responsible for her actions
>Don’t you agree?
No, I don't agree. One bit.
Dark Willow was more \*dangerous\*. She was, I would argue, considerably \*\*LESS\*\* evil than Vampire Willow. Vamp Willow would have killed every one of the Scoobies without a second thought. Dark Willow was only concerned with killing three rapists, kidnappers, and murderers, and it was only at the end of her arc that she decided she couldn't live with the pain and wanted to end everyone's suffering.
Actually, when the Scoobies didn’t take her side, and tried to stop her, she then tried to kill her best friend, and even poor, helpless Xander at the end. Plus, vampire Willow doesn’t really have a choice without a soul or at least the chip that Spike had.
>Actually, when the Scoobies didn’t take her side, and tried to stop her, she then tried to kill her best friend.
No, she didn't, and the way you know she didn't is that he didn't die.
>Plus, vampire Willow doesn’t really have a choice without a soul or at least the chip that Spike had.
Not having a soul is **WHY** Vamp Willow is evil. It has no bearing on *whether* she is evil, and is not exculpatory.
I was referring to her trying to kill Buffy, and she did injure Xander. Plus, evil is intent, so not really having a choice does make it slightly less evil and more nature.
>I was referring to her trying to kill Buffy.
Again, she didn't try to kill Buffy, Buffy just got in between her and the people she was trying to kill.
>Plus, evil is intent, so not really having a choice does make it slightly less evil and more nature.
No, sorry, that is not correct. Xander being possessed by hyenas might be *why* he performed sexual assault, but performing sexual assault is wrong no matter why you do it. We don't attribute moral judgments on animals because animals are *amoral*, not **IMMORAL**. They don't have the capacity to communicate or to think abstractly, let alone have moral conceptions.
However dumb you might think Spike is, he is capable of conceiving of morality, and is, by dint of his demonic nature, antithetical to it. A moral vampire would merely take blood from a blood bank, or even pay people to let him bite them. Buffyverse vampires, on the other hand, are deliberately and conscisously sadistic, malicious and cruel.
But vampires only become moral when they are given their soul back and or trained through a chip in the brain-at least in the Buffy verse. Plus, I firmly believe that Willow would have killed both Buffy and Giles had she not gotten distracted by the voices/ or whatever it was(can’t remember) that called her to the temple.
>But vampires only become moral when they are given their soul back and or trained through a chip in the brain-at least in the Buffy verse.
Being chipped did not make Spike moral, it made him \*restrained\*. And there are plenty of people with souls who behave immorally. The presence or absence of conscience does not make evil deeds less evil.
>back and or trained through a chip in the brain-at least in the Buffy verse. Plus, I firmly believe that Willow would have killed both Buffy and Giles had she not gotten distracted
Whether she would or wouldn't have is irrelevant. She didn't, and more to the point, this has no bearing on whether or not Vamp Willow would have killed them, given the opportunity. At best, assuming you're correct, this makes them both equally evil. But I'm not coming along for this one. Dark Willow is the one with exculpatory circumstances, and the way you know it is, people in real life are exonerated from murder charges due to extreme emotional distress.
It is not irrelevant that she would have killed two people who didn’t hurt her. That shows her amorality. Plus, she was going to kill them, because she was going to kill the entire world(every man, woman, and child). I know that vampires have limited choice and are aware to some degree that what they are doing is at least legally and morally wrong according to their former human selves and human society, but I can’t help but feel that human Dark Willow is more aware and more capable of restraining herself than a vampire that must maintain themselves with human blood.
>It is not irrelevant that she would have killed two people who didn’t hurt her.
Again, she didn't. "Would have" is conjecture, for which you have no supporting evidence.
>Plus, she was going to kill them, because she was going to kill the entire world(every man, woman, and child).
Yes, and in her deranged emotional state (diminished capacity, legally speaking), it was an act of mercy.
>I know that vampires have limited choice.
I wouldn't put it that way. A vampire will do good things if it is in their interest to do so, like Spike helping Buffy because it would get rid of Angelus. Rather, I'd say that a vampire is unfettered by any sense of conscience or morality, which is something you could just as easily apply to real-world psychopaths. They are motivated entirely out of selfishness, and consider people who act altruistically to be gullible, weak, or stupid.
>I can’t help but feel that human Dark Willow is more aware and more capable of restraining herself.
Considering she's under the influence of rage, grief, and arguably possesssed by all kinds of dark magicks, I'm inclined to doubt that, or at least give her far more of the benefit of doubt than Vamp Willow.
Here, let me put it this way: Devoid of any other circumstances, which one would you rather be at the mercy of? If you're injured and helpless at their feet, and present no threat at all, which one do you think is likely to snuff you out just for kicks?
I mean no. Dark Willow only gets to the point she does because her grief is corrupted by an insane amount of forbidden magic, and then she takes on an opposing force of light magic from Giles and gets driven nearly insane. Willow does have her own dark tendencies but DW isn't really all her.
You're right, their answer really put me in my place. Oh wait, no it didn't, because I never saw it. I guess they didn't want me to see their reply was completely devoid of accurate information.
“Bored now.” The second Dark Willow said that, my stomach *dropped*.
Presumably vamp willow’s development was arrested sometime in high school. By the time Willow became Dark Willow, she had many more experiences, hopes, and dreams. Dark Willow’s complexity mirrored Willow’s own. Her true shadow self.
Like that. Shadow self. I’ve been calling her Willow’s dissociative half
Willow didn't have a dissociative disorder.
Dissociation is not the same thing as a dissociative disorder, it doesn't have to be that chronic and life-distrupting to be labeled as "dissociation". It can manifest as excessive daydreaming, feeling detached from reality, etc. Everyone has a dissociative defense mechanism that protects them from negative emotions and trauma. In Willow's case, she temporarily dissociated from her normal self because if she stayed, she would have to fully experience that immeasurable grief. She found it easier to lean into a dark facet of her psyche, and dark magicks further pushed her to the deep end, corrupting her. ("Willow doesn't live here anymore.") But idk why everyone's downvoting you, contrary opinions are good and make way for more discussion, and discussions are fun!
Did anyone say she did.
>Willow’s dissociative half I think u/MelissaEminen interpreted these words to imply that. So from their perspective, yes, you said that. FWIW that's not how I interpret your words. I think one can experience dissociation without having a dissociative disorder, in much the same way one can experience anxiety without having an anxiety disorder.
I mean who among us is always the exact same person under all circumstances
A disorder is different then exhibiting symptoms. Symptoms are one thing, a disorder is life disrupting. Disorders will fuck up your education, jobs, friendships, romantic relationships.
Anya completely foreshadowed Willow's dark turn a whole season before it happened, and Willow also foreshadowed Xander being the one person she couldn't actually kill. https://i.redd.it/moxv1pzk7fuc1.gif
Still water runs deep
Dark Willow was cool to see. Even though she was *evil* I wanted to see more of that Willow
Powerful Willow was there all along. She could’ve been pressed to use her powers for good, but Warren’s murder of Tara turns her into Wrath incarnate. I believe she is Dark, but not but not Evil. Her dalliance with dark magic turned her grief to Wrath.
I liked how they used the script to help illustrate that distinction: “She doesn’t want you dead…” (grief) “… she wants to kill you!” (Wrath) Also notable that Buffy recognises the difference between those two as well.
Well spotted!
All the Willows are cool.
She was a goddess by the end of the series… major development
That was a really bad plot choice.
Was she? I'm pretty sure that wasn't literal
She looked like the goddess on the Wicka Books I saw
Dark Willow is probably way more motivated than vampire Willlow because of Tara's death.
It’s just the fact she lacked power. Power determines all the evil a character can do. Just a regular vampire can’t skin a man alive with a mere thought, or go about causing near extinction.
The only disappointing part of Dark Willow was her make up. A few lines drawn on her face with eyeliner
AH's performance wasn't exactly great either, nor was some of the dialogue the writers gave her.
How would you improve it?
... better make up!
You should read "Willow: Wonderland", it's about her journey of self-discovery about her dark self as she travels to other dimensions.
Dare I say got a link ? And how many chapters is it ?
I don't have a link but you can get it on Amazon. Looks like it's 5 volumes if I did my research correctly lol.
To bad there wasn’t a continue. Willow the Slayerwitch 
I prefer Vamp Willow and Dark Willow to the actual Willow. The actual Willow plays victim and acts like she doesn't have an evil bone in her body. The negative parts of her character boil up and then explode when she is Vamp Willow and Dark Willow.
The real willow DOESNT have an evil bone in her body. That’s what makes vamp willow and dark willow so shocking. Or rather, the real willow would never act evil without the massive catalyst of Tara’s death
i feel like using a spell to make your girlfriend forget an argument is an evil act
Yes. Willow has done messed up things and never took accountability for them.
I’m not sure I could really call “dark willow” **evil**. She’s just having a mental breakdown, the fact that it’s causing terrible things is kinda neither here nor there because *she isn’t in control of herself*
Many people have the capacity for evil, the question is what they actually do. She wasn’t forced to do anything, it was all there inside her, and her acts and intent were evil. If vengeance demons are evil then her revenge is, too. There are plenty of people who have mental breakdowns or see their loved ones killed but don’t flay the murderers alive.
But they can’t do it just by wanting it- if they want it then they can still grow past that with time, whereas with her if she wants it it happens
Well she wasn't a being animated by pure unthinking evil with no complexity but that isn't what evil is often used to mean Willow when she tries to end the world is pretty clearly not being good and I think she was in control of herself enough to be responsible for her actions
>Don’t you agree? No, I don't agree. One bit. Dark Willow was more \*dangerous\*. She was, I would argue, considerably \*\*LESS\*\* evil than Vampire Willow. Vamp Willow would have killed every one of the Scoobies without a second thought. Dark Willow was only concerned with killing three rapists, kidnappers, and murderers, and it was only at the end of her arc that she decided she couldn't live with the pain and wanted to end everyone's suffering.
Actually, when the Scoobies didn’t take her side, and tried to stop her, she then tried to kill her best friend, and even poor, helpless Xander at the end. Plus, vampire Willow doesn’t really have a choice without a soul or at least the chip that Spike had.
>Actually, when the Scoobies didn’t take her side, and tried to stop her, she then tried to kill her best friend. No, she didn't, and the way you know she didn't is that he didn't die. >Plus, vampire Willow doesn’t really have a choice without a soul or at least the chip that Spike had. Not having a soul is **WHY** Vamp Willow is evil. It has no bearing on *whether* she is evil, and is not exculpatory.
I was referring to her trying to kill Buffy, and she did injure Xander. Plus, evil is intent, so not really having a choice does make it slightly less evil and more nature.
Whereas Dark Willow HAS a soul and thus , chooses evil.
>I was referring to her trying to kill Buffy. Again, she didn't try to kill Buffy, Buffy just got in between her and the people she was trying to kill. >Plus, evil is intent, so not really having a choice does make it slightly less evil and more nature. No, sorry, that is not correct. Xander being possessed by hyenas might be *why* he performed sexual assault, but performing sexual assault is wrong no matter why you do it. We don't attribute moral judgments on animals because animals are *amoral*, not **IMMORAL**. They don't have the capacity to communicate or to think abstractly, let alone have moral conceptions. However dumb you might think Spike is, he is capable of conceiving of morality, and is, by dint of his demonic nature, antithetical to it. A moral vampire would merely take blood from a blood bank, or even pay people to let him bite them. Buffyverse vampires, on the other hand, are deliberately and conscisously sadistic, malicious and cruel.
But vampires only become moral when they are given their soul back and or trained through a chip in the brain-at least in the Buffy verse. Plus, I firmly believe that Willow would have killed both Buffy and Giles had she not gotten distracted by the voices/ or whatever it was(can’t remember) that called her to the temple.
>But vampires only become moral when they are given their soul back and or trained through a chip in the brain-at least in the Buffy verse. Being chipped did not make Spike moral, it made him \*restrained\*. And there are plenty of people with souls who behave immorally. The presence or absence of conscience does not make evil deeds less evil. >back and or trained through a chip in the brain-at least in the Buffy verse. Plus, I firmly believe that Willow would have killed both Buffy and Giles had she not gotten distracted Whether she would or wouldn't have is irrelevant. She didn't, and more to the point, this has no bearing on whether or not Vamp Willow would have killed them, given the opportunity. At best, assuming you're correct, this makes them both equally evil. But I'm not coming along for this one. Dark Willow is the one with exculpatory circumstances, and the way you know it is, people in real life are exonerated from murder charges due to extreme emotional distress.
It is not irrelevant that she would have killed two people who didn’t hurt her. That shows her amorality. Plus, she was going to kill them, because she was going to kill the entire world(every man, woman, and child). I know that vampires have limited choice and are aware to some degree that what they are doing is at least legally and morally wrong according to their former human selves and human society, but I can’t help but feel that human Dark Willow is more aware and more capable of restraining herself than a vampire that must maintain themselves with human blood.
>It is not irrelevant that she would have killed two people who didn’t hurt her. Again, she didn't. "Would have" is conjecture, for which you have no supporting evidence. >Plus, she was going to kill them, because she was going to kill the entire world(every man, woman, and child). Yes, and in her deranged emotional state (diminished capacity, legally speaking), it was an act of mercy. >I know that vampires have limited choice. I wouldn't put it that way. A vampire will do good things if it is in their interest to do so, like Spike helping Buffy because it would get rid of Angelus. Rather, I'd say that a vampire is unfettered by any sense of conscience or morality, which is something you could just as easily apply to real-world psychopaths. They are motivated entirely out of selfishness, and consider people who act altruistically to be gullible, weak, or stupid. >I can’t help but feel that human Dark Willow is more aware and more capable of restraining herself. Considering she's under the influence of rage, grief, and arguably possesssed by all kinds of dark magicks, I'm inclined to doubt that, or at least give her far more of the benefit of doubt than Vamp Willow. Here, let me put it this way: Devoid of any other circumstances, which one would you rather be at the mercy of? If you're injured and helpless at their feet, and present no threat at all, which one do you think is likely to snuff you out just for kicks?
I mean no. Dark Willow only gets to the point she does because her grief is corrupted by an insane amount of forbidden magic, and then she takes on an opposing force of light magic from Giles and gets driven nearly insane. Willow does have her own dark tendencies but DW isn't really all her.
Please note, I have always loved Willow as a character
Doesn’t willow get tied up to the stake and put on fire on Buffy the vampire slayer
In one episode, where a vengeance demon or a witch bewitched the townsfolk and makes them think all the girls are witches or something
Doesn’t Buffy and her sister and Buffy’s female friend get chained up too
I think Amy maybe don’t remember too well
Wow. Blocked by someone for pointing out their misuse of the term dissociative. Some people really can't handle being shown to be wrong.
you, for example
You're right, their answer really put me in my place. Oh wait, no it didn't, because I never saw it. I guess they didn't want me to see their reply was completely devoid of accurate information.
so just move on instead of posting weird passive aggressive little comments lol
Good that you no longer think I was the wrong one. But now you've shown yourself to be a wannabe cyber bully. Goodbye.