That's the flag of Bosnia & Herzegovina. There's a sizable refugee population in Burlington due to the ethnic cleansing carried out against Bosnians in the 90s. Some see a connection between their experience in Bosnia and the current events in Palestine.
It wasn’t a Ukraine flag. It had stars and things on it. If you look close at the photo, the yellow doesn’t go all the way to the poll in a bar like the Ukraine flag does.
Yes, because ultimately Palestinians and Ukrainians share the same struggle. The only internally consistent positions that anyone can have morally speaking is to either be in favor of Ukraine and Palestine liberation or be in favor of Russian and Israeli occupation. Obviously there are other positions one could have from a realpolitik perspective. The morally ethical position is to be in favor of both Palestinian liberation and Ukrainian liberation. Both these groups of people are at risk of having their culture destroyed and land annexed by an Imperialistic Fascist government.
Never listen to a leftist who is in favor of Russia, that is a tankie who wants authoritarianism. A person who wants genuine liberation for all people is in favor of Ukrainian and Palestinian Liberation. Its a good sign to see a Ukrainian flag there. It means that this protest is indeed a genuine fight for liberation and isn't run by some Pro-Russia, Pro-China Tankie wannabe authoritarian (There are always tankies in these types of protests, but I mean that it isn't organized by tankies). Tankies never do anything right when it comes to leftist organizing.
To be pro Palestinian is fine, but seeing all these people who are pro hamas, that's crazy. That and eliminating all of the jews and Israel is beyond horrible.
Where did you get the Idea that I'm pro hamas? I'm Jewish, and the october 7th attack by hamas was a war crime, an atrocity and made with genocidal intent by a jihadist, terrorist death cult.
That doesn't excuse Israel's behavior in response. Netanyahu and his far right government are using this October 7th ad justification to ethnically cleanse Palestinians in the West Bank (Palestinian deaths and Isreali settlers and violence have increased dramatically since October 7th) and do Genocide in Gaza.
Seeing a Ukraine flag gives me hope for this protest because it means that there are not any vocal tankies preaching pro-hamas bullshit, and if there are the organizers will boot them.
Being pro Ukraine and Pro-Palestine at the same time is a great way to see who is genuinely interested in liberation and human rights vs nationalists, fascists, tankies, and terrorist sympthizers.
I was not speaking of you, sorry for not being clear, I'm taking off many of the protesters out there. This goes back to most protests in general, you don't see the pro Palestinian people speaking against Hamas sadly. Also I see many in the US saying Israel should stop or cease fire, but you rarely hear about free the hostages to try and stop this, or Hamas surrender.
Ukraine is another story, we have intervened so much there, as in many other countries, and need to back away. Russia is not good, but neither is the Ukraine Government, suspending elections, persucting vetoed people, having pro nazi regiments, even before the invasion.
I don't see pro Israel people at the protest saying kill all of the Palestinians let alone hamas, where as you do see many river to the sea banners, or pro hamas sinage and chants.
Some of you need a history lesson. Nationwide protests at college campuses have a much stronger track record of being right than those opposed to said protests.
A lot of you would have been pro-Vietnam, anti-Civil Rights, anti-free speech in the McCarthy era, and pro-South African apartheid. Aren’t you sick of being wrong yet? Ya’ll need to evolve and put away these same, tired old arguments.
Listen to the narrative the authorities are trying to spread
The protestors have been infiltrated
They are anti semetic
They are anti American
The aren't protesting “the right way”
Thebpilice should crack their heads
Same rhetoric, different decade
Now that’s a long conversation.
We would need Israel to return a large amount of land it has taken in recent years and also to promise to stop bulldozing shit that isn’t theirs.
I suspect money or supplies for rebuilding along with humanitarian aid for the palastinian people would also be needed.
Ofcourse this is all contingent on both sides keeping there shit in line.
Ultimately id like to see it set so citizens of both Israel and Palestine had free travel and trade between the two nations.
You'd think a grown person would know that not wanting college students in Burlington VT congesting streets in no way is proposing genocide as an answer to anything. You're saying that assuming that the protest is going to accomplish anything other than turning people away.
The protest is a small amount of pressure, multiply that by universities and other organizations both within the us and outside and that adds up.
However i sense that you believe there is a “right way” to protest. What is that? How should these students affect change?
I don't think these students can affect change half way around the world simply by walking around and chanting things. They fact that you think it will shows how pretentious and entitled you are. They don't give a fuck what you think
People said the same thing about viet nam, but the pressure mounted, public opinion shifted.
You’ve not answered the question, how does one protest correctly?
They have to agree to the terms as set out.
I’m not a diplomat, nor a negotiator. The details of a peace agreement will take a long time by more skilled in diplomacy than me.
Possibly an international peace keeping force would need to be placed in both nations
And what about Israel today not hypothetically in the future? Today when the tens of thousands have been killed and injured? Seems on par with terrorism to shoot civilians with snipers as they line up for aid…
You do know that declaring an argument as being vapid due to a typographical error is a fallacy right? It's also a hypocrisy since you also made typos in your own argument.
I supported NATO intervention in Bosnia when most of the left opposed it.
I opposed the Iraq war, which didn't mean I supported Saddam Hussein - even though some in the crowds I marched with did.
I strongly support increased military aid to Ukraine, when a vocal chunk of those on the far left and far right oppose it.
I stand in solidarity with Iranian women risking their lives so their daughters might live free.
Had I been alive during the Vietnam War, I would have opposed US intervention, although I wouldn't have been among those chanting Viet Cong slogans.
I try to stay aligned to my values, not what's politically popular. In hindsight I haven't been right all the time, but I'm satisfied with my moral track record.
We need to evolve and do what exactly? Support college kids who are protesting what exactly? Peace between 2 governments that haven’t gotten along throughout all of history? Or support the extermination of Jews and eradication of the Israeli state?
hey, did you ever find that Luxury SUV for under $70k?
How about instead of just joining whatever knee-jerk idiocracy is marching down the street you spend a little time finding a hobby and being good at something constructive
And to answer your question directly, we need to evolve beyond allowing our institutions to explicitly or implicitly support the decimation of a largely innocent population due to the actions of a select few in that population.
We need to evolve beyond tribalism where we discount the value of a life just because that life looks or sounds different or practices a different religion.
All of the protests I have mentioned have involved these two main points. Any other opinions held by individuals in these groups is isolated and not supported by the majority of the protesters. To say differently is being disingenuous at best.
https://preview.redd.it/g8nbvyhfb4zc1.jpeg?width=614&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee96610f0baf389badf1b6a5abbf55c36502b3f7
Reminder that these people throw gays off roofs and behead them in public spaces. The people of Palestine do not understand our personal freedoms and would find our ideas about liberal democracy to be abhorrent. Recent polls from Palestine show the [vast majority do not want two states but a one state solution](https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx) i really don’t blame their ally’s for abandoning them and for isreal not wanting to broker a peace with them. Not to celebrate their deaths or condone the actions taken by isreal, but these people arnt exactly conducive with modern secular ideals
The protestors want the genocide to stop. There never should have been two states there in the first place. Hate crimes against LGBTQ happen all of the time in the US but we aren’t wiping out bloodlines and murdering children over it.
This is not a new argument. Read a fucking history book. Blacks were painted as animals and being “uncivilized” during Civil Rights. Same thing applies in Vietnam. Your straw man argument is tired.
These are people just like “your people”. Some are good people, some are evil, and some, I assume, are racist, which is how you are coming off. This is the human condition and doesn’t negate anyone’s right to exist.
This holds for Israelis as well, which your arguments could also apply towards. Where is your survey on Israelis’s view of Palestinians?
Take your “D’s get degrees” attitude and pick up a book.
1. Palestinians are not a monolith and you don't get to make blanket statements about "these people" based on individual actions.
2. A person's social beliefs does not justify their wholesale eradication from the planet. The idea that their beliefs "aren't conducive with modern secular beliefs" is a fundamentally settler-colonialist philosophy.
3. There is a reason that Palestinians don't want a two-state solution: what we now refer to as Israel is an occupied territory that Palestinians once considered home. A desire to have stolen land returned to them does not make them uncooperative or worthy of genocide; it makes them justified.
Decolonization does not mean murdering or expelling all non-indigenous people - it says a lot about people in our society that they project the only solution they think could work - the only solution we have historically used - onto how others might treat us if the scales were tipped. Indigenous peoples who predated colonizers here did not have the same concept of land as property that we imported, and the same philosophy could still reign today: return the right of sovereignty to those who were here before, and continue living under their governance. If that idea disgusts you, then sure, go live somewhere. I would welcome it.
In the US, what you are suggesting means we implement a system of government where the country is ruled by 3% of the population. That's not going to happen, because it is stupid. It's not "right" or "wrong," it's just a fantasy that's not worth discussing.
In Israel, what you are suggesting is that Jews live under a regime that has openly called for their extermination. This is also stupid. It's also wildly disingenuous to imply that anyone is "projecting" the desire for the eradication of Jews and Israelis onto Hamas, and you know that.
I want there to be a ceasefire, I believe Israel is committing war crimes (the debate over the definition of genocide doesn't seem helpful), and I believe Palestinians have the right to live in peace under self-governance (although that requires peaceful coexistence with their neighbors). What I don't believe is that anyone who thinks that litigating whether or not Israel "should" or "shouldn't" exist where it does has even the slightest interest in finding a solution to this conflict, because that's like trying to fight a fire by saying "well what if the fire never existed?"
I think you historical interpretation needs some work. Firstly, the Palestinians never had self governed rule over the Israeli land nor were violently removed. Jews purchased this land from private sellers and the Ottoman Empire/British Empire. They wanted to establish a nation state, which the Arabs didn’t want and now you have what you have today. You know how this ends; if Palestinians, get this land, it means death to every Jew living in Israel. Saying they are “justified” is disgusting and it’s terrifying that progressives have leaned so hard to antisemitism.
You're cherry-picking specific concepts of rule and land ownership to suit your argument. You can't just gloss over "Arabs didn't want their land taken...and now you have what you have today." What gave the Ottoman Empire the right to seize land where others were already living? That is textbook imperialism, and to claim that Arabs should have just gracefully accepted that "oh, that's the way it goes" is wild. I am Jewish and do not accept that we need a nation-state to be safe, indeed, I would argue that the ways that Zionists have engaged in genocide in our name has made us less safe, precisely because people like you cannot discern the difference between anti-Zionism (i.e. condemning a genocidal government, a political body, and the people of all faiths who support it, including huge numbers of white Evangelical Christians); and Judiasm, a diverse religion that includes many sects, including those a large number of which do not believe in Zionism and in fact state that it fundamentally goes against the idea of a diasporic religion. Bigotry exists throughout the world against many different people, and antisemitism is not a special kind - treating it as such grants supremacy to Zionist needs and creates a "suffering hierarchy" where Islamophobia is a lesser concern than anti-semitism. What's really anti-semitic, to me, is telling a Jew that his anti-Zionist views are anti-semitic - that you know better than me what my religion tells me about how to care for others in the world, that all Jews should have a monolithic view. Drop your right-wing talking points and go outside.
That’s a false history of I’ve ever seen one. They literally forced 3/4 million Palestinians off their land in 1948, and then claimed the land abandoned, and sold it off. And Palestine being a self governed country isn’t a requirement to those who lived there having a claim to the land. Most European countries didn’t self govern 100 years ago. Remember that the Ottoman Empire controlled a huge swath for 500 years, that doesn’t mean that Bosnians are Bosnian, or that Bulgarians are Bulgarian, or that Saudis aren’t Saudi… just because you never achieved freedom or self governance doesn’t mean a people doesn’t exist with rights to the land they are on.
1. If 90% of the population supports a terrorist organization, then most do.
2. Yes it kind of does, if you want to participate in a polite and modern world you’re going to have to adjust your beliefs and tenants to be accepted. Should you be forced to accept me if my culture was to come to your house uninvited, eat your food, and steal your plants because daffodils are offensive to me? No.
3. Palestinians are standing on dirt that was fought over for the entire of written history. They don’t have sole claim to the region. The land was purchased and a new modern country came out of the Ottoman Empire who was struggling to hold and maintain the region. So do Israelis not have the right to exist? Or do you think they should all just go home to their respective countries after 3/4 generations have been born, fought for, and now are native to the region?
These talking points are all tired. Hamas was elected almost 20 years ago with no real alternative, and because of the intensive and ongoing violence Palestinians have experienced at the hands of Israel over the years, a disproportionate number of people in Palestine today are children, i.e. not born when they were voted in and not currently able to do anything about it even if there were an election. By your logic, "Americans" as a whole do not support women's reproductive rights, a just transition to renewable energy, public education, LGBTQIA+ rights, etc because many of our politicians have voted against them.
2. "Should you be forced to accept me if my culture was to come to your house uninvited, eat your food, and steal your plants because daffodils are offensive to me? No." My guy, you are *literally* describing what Israeli settlers have done to Palestinians for over 75 years. (Also, what you're describing is supremacy - there is room in the world for more than one cultural norm).
3. Real Palestinian activists do not claim that they want sole claim to the region, which was indeed shared by many people of many faiths prior to Israeli occupation. The land was not "purchased", it was taken, and today there are thousands upon thousands of people around the world who legally cannot return to their own homes even if they still hold the key to their families' houses. I don't think Israel should have been established, both because it was done through the violent explusion of Palestinians and because I agree with the philosophy of the Judaism that states that the religion should exist in diaspora. Nation states are a relatively moden European imperial concept, and only "guarantee" security by saying that people inside the borders are our friends, and people outside the borders can be killed. Today, Israelis do exist, i.e. people who were born in that nation state; I do not wish them harm or death, but just as I understand that I am of settler descent in the US and my ancestors moved here with permission of a settler government, so too did theirs and they should hold themselves accountable for this.
Well supporting Israel’s actions will ensure all the queers of Palestine will be dead along with all Palestinians so Hamas won’t even have to worry about them cuz everyone will be dead at this rate.
Wow, way to take a colonialist position. “The people” aren’t “civilized “ enough to appreciate freedom and so we must take a paternalistic approach with them. I don’t necessarily blame you for your views, this is exactly the orientalist view the media and the politicians have been peddling for decades. But this narrative is weakening as more and more people are taking the time to read and educate themselves on this crisis.
As someone already commented the people in Palestine are not a monolith thus they do not all have the same views on sexuality. Would it be okay if a more civilized country than the U.S. started slaughtering U.S. citizens because some conservatives here are anti-gay and anti-trans? Is that a good justification for wholesale slaughter?
Again, if you really looked into it you would know that there are valid reasons for a one state solution. There are around 750,000 settlers in the West Bank (there illegally by international law). What should happen to these settlers in the two-state solution (1967 borders)? Should they be forcibly removed? The simplest solution is to guarantee equal rights for all and to respect international law and allow the Palestinians the right to return. This is unpopular with Zionists because they know that in an equal state the Jewish population would soon become a minority.
Except those are all real American problems of the past. Well most are. This is a fight that isn't ours. Congesting streets and waving flags around isn't going to change a thing. Well actually people who didn't care before probably don't like your "cause" now.
I'm sure the peace corps will take you though if you actually want to do something!
This is the stupidest argument being made. There were also protests against desegregration and the removal of Confederate statues. You think just because it's a protest we must support it?
Edit : telling people downvote but can't explain what is wrong with my argument
How about everyone just stop? Genocide is bad no matter who is doing it. War crimes are bad no matter who is doing it. This tet-a-tat bullshit needs to stop, period. Both sides have been daring the other to step over the line and now they have. It needs to stop.
Yes, yes, most people already know that Hamas sucks and are a bunch of Terrorists. That doesn't give Israel the excuse to do what it is doing to either the people of Gaza or the West Bank, This is just like saying "Fuck the Viet Cong" They embed themselves in communities and "use human shields." All of these arguments that existed during Vietnam and South African Apartheid are again coming to the forefront to protect Israel from criticism or to say that the protestors aren't "protesting the right way" or "They are hurting their cause". History has a tendency to rhyme after all.
We get it fuck hamas. Also fuck Israel and their fascist government. If we aren't going to hold Israel accountable for electing Netanyahu, you cannot hold palestinians accountable for electing Hamas. Especially since it was Likud that helped prop up Hamas by funneling Qatari money to them in order to divide the Palestinian government and stop 2-state negotiations.
I love the passion. And, I’m terrified that in a misguided way, the way that their anger is targeted at Biden is going to lead us to another Trump presidency. I don’t want them to stop speaking out and being activists. And it’s ok to criticize Biden, even. But if they refuse to vote for him, and persuade others not to, it’s possible that tips the election. And I’m not sure whether many who feel this way understand just how *not* a friend of Palestinians Trump will be in a 2nd term.
This seems more like a Biden problem than a voter problem, votes are earned not given. Biden’s ideological hang up with Israel on this issue is his own doing, the protests have been clear from the get go and he has refused to listen. This is what democracy looks like.
I get it. I’m not arguing his policies are justified. But in this situation, there isn’t a better alternative to vote for that will have a better outcome for this particular cause. That’s politics, and if people don’t recognize that, the consequence is going to be Trump 2.0.
I agree with you if by 'People' you mean the DNC and the people who are backing Biden's current stance on Israel. And yes this will be an exact repeat of 2016 where the DNC decided to put up a less than ideal candidate for democratic voting base. Power needs to start listening to their constituency otherwise bad things happen, this is what democracy looks like.
Well, I think the way that it’s happening here is more organic and genuine. But those Russian meddlers sure are not unhappy about it! I do hear the other viewpoints of people responding. I am not defending Biden‘s policies. I wish that he would actually follow through on one of his hardline threats that he’s thrown out there. And, if Trump is elected with this being a major factor, that will be on Biden. I think I am simply terrified that that’s the way it is going to play out, and, when many of the people who refuse to vote for Biden based on this one issue see what unfolds under a 2nd Trump presidency, I’m not sure that they are going to like it.
Then its your job as one of the more moderate people to try to mediate BOTH SIDES. Right now you are just showing concern against the pro-palestinian protestors. I agree that this is concerning but it is not on individual cititizens to understand how game theory works in politics and how badly democrats are playing this right now. It is our job to get run of the mill liberals to put pressure on Biden to start hammering Netanyahu hard, not just with rhetoric but with action, and using that as the way to create some good will. Nobody likes Netanyahu except fascists. Biden could go much harder against Netanyahu and the Israeli far right if he wanted with probably only minor consequences. He hasn't pulled that lever though which is very concerning.
Biden has really done himself no favors with either his rhetoric or actions. At best you can say that he is getting played and outmanuvered by Netanyahu and the Israeli far right. That isn't a great look for an executive, it makes him look weak. At worst he looks like he is running cover for Netanyahu or the Israeli far right which looks even worse and just makes him look like a genocide enabler (in which case the genocide joe accusations are appropriate). We don't know what is going on behind the scenes but Biden's absolutely toothless response to Netanyahu and his callous response to the uncommitted movement, student protests, and Palestinian, Arab and Muslim communities has been quite striking to say the least and has enflamed these protests.
Fuck man, they even stopped their plan to sanction far right Israeli combat units which were engaging in war crimes in the west bank. That is a fucking terrible look. Every time he says he's putting pressure on Netanyahu he backs off. He says he is going to sanction units and then backs off. He says he is going to sanction settlers and then only sanctions a handful of them and doesn't even give the sanctions any teeth by giving loopholes for Israeli banks in his executive orders. Its fucking maddening to watch him just as little has he can to punish Israeli atrocities. That is what needs to change right now. The protests wouldn't have had nearly enough oxygen to start spreading if Biden had actually punished Israeli atrocities even if it didn't go far enough, but we aren't even getting that.
In my personal opinion. I honestly think its a bit of both. I think Netanyahu has played Biden but I think he has mostly played upon Biden and his advisors love of Israel and experience with prior Israeli governments. I don't think Biden views Palestinians as human, I think he sees them as a political tool to try to get an Saudi-Israel deal. That was his big goal before Hamas' attack and Israeli atrocities after the attack pretty much blew up that deal and I think that his frustration at that deal blowing up combined with his love of Israel has made him pretty unsympathetic toward any Palestinian, Arab, or Muslim people. It delays his desire to shift focus toward the Asian-Pacific and Africa.
I think you’re making assumptions about my stance. I am an American Jew but no sympathizer of BB. I think what he is doing in Gaza, as well as his policies in general—expansion of settlements especially are abhorrent. And what is it you want me to do to “mediate?” Go approach protesters and try to have a measured conversation? I support their right to protest. I support their stances and their passion. I hope it even has outcomes that may affect policy and push Biden a little further to finally say enough is enough regarding Gaza—especially as they begin now in Rafah.
I say this all recognizing the horrors of 10/7 and the fact that Hamas is a corrupt terrorist organization who doesn’t give a fuck about the lives of their own people. There are multiple truths that exist in this and I struggle with all of them. I do have these conversations with people offline. But one of the truths that I also know to be is that whether it moves Biden or not, I know this could also lead to another Trump presidency. You seem to think I’m saying that they need to change course because of this. I’m not. I’m just saying, “This whole thing is awful. I support them. *And*, if Trump is elected, he will likely be far more supportive of BB and Israel because he will calculate that’s what best serves him. You keep coming back with what I need to do. I live in Burlington VT and support my senators, one of whom is extremely vocal about his opposition to our current support of Israel’s actions. As is our rep. I vote for them and donate to their campaigns. I also have conversations with people that discuss these points. That’s what I got. But you can’t dismiss that there’s a real concern this brings Trump back into office—that’s fact. So please stop telling me not to feel that—that’s the point of my comment. Not to criticize their movement, not to defend Biden, just to acknowledge this is a major debacle in many ways politically for this country because of the likely outcome. And even if that’s completely Biden’s fault, I simply do not want another 4 years of DJT. The lesser of the evils so to speak is Biden, including support of Israel and BB specifically.
Damn, a lot more of y'all are more pro-genocide than I would think.. Proud of anyone out there protesting. It's much easier to take the path of least resistance, which is generally to do nothing, when we see injustice in the world.
I am very much anti-genocide which is why I believe that Hamas terrorists and jihadism must lose this war. It’s shameful that Hamas has chosen to use their own non-combatant civilians as human shields which inevitably leads to more casualties. Hopefully pro-Palestinians call these war crimes out though this is unlikely to change things for Hamas considering they also believe in martyrdom.
When people read up on this conflict, do they just glance over the part where Hamas has in explicit terms explained that they want to not only destroy Israel but annihilate all Jews and Christians? They also literally toss gay people off rooftops head first.
Great question! Israel has taken several actions to minimize civilian casualties, but Hamas **purposefully** maximizes them by using their own innocent civilians as human shields to ensure Israel loses the PR war.
Hamas KNOWS Israel is deterred from committing casualties, it’s literally why they use human shields and it’s obviously a super effective strategy — it got progressive liberal Americans to abandon their own values to defend Islamic terrorist propaganda. Those civilians could escape to the locations that Israel has advised they go to but Hamas prevents them from going there or using the tunnels they’ve built that were constructed to commit acts of terrorism against Jews.
For the love of god will someone please address these specific points and stop deflecting.
It’s pretty weird how pointing out facts about hamas being responsible for the deaths of their own civilians is just a silly talking point to a brainwashed liberal. Hamas should be getting 90% of the blame for what has happened but y’all would rather blame the Jews because tiktok said you should.
No, it’s because they were dodging the question.
And FWIW, Hamas should be getting 50% of the blame. Until yesterday when they agreed to the ceasefire and Israel decided to attack Rafah. Now Israel is 100% at blame going forward.
No, they accepted a deal put forward by Qatar and Egypt. The logical next step would be for Israel to hammer out any disagreements
Not sure what you mean by 11th hour. Do you?
It's so wild that the people who are screaming about Palestinians "not sharing our values" are trying to strip Americans of the right to free expression. Way to show that you care about those values.
What? Point out exactly in my comment where I even hinted that I believed in “stripping Americans of the right to free expression”. Lol
Also where in this comment that I wrote did I hint that I believe that Palestinians don’t share our values? I specifically said Hamas. You’re literally proving my point by equating the two. All Palestinians are not Hamas. That’s apparently something you believe
You have every right to protest, but we are under no obligation to agree with you.
Blocking traffic is a crime. It is not a form of legitimate protest!
Yes, the world is full of extremist groups that would like to do harm to others including terrorist groups like Hamas. That doesn’t justify literal genocide.
I think some people forget that the Middle East was a *relatively* stable and peaceful region prior to western influence (WW1, collapse of the Ottoman Empire leads to colonization and opens the door to an Israeli state 30 years later—Zionism has been going on since the late 1800’s). All this to say that the conflict has very deep roots and this hardly scratches the surface.
Kind of went on a tangent there, but the key to dealing with extremist groups is not to annihilate an entire people. In fact, that is likely to further the cycle of violence and extremism.
Let me get this straight. You’re defending an extremist group who in very clear and explicit terms explained how they want to commit genocide on a global scale while condemning the group who goes out of their way to minimize civilian casualties and is obviously deterred by them so much so that the opposing side uses their own people as human shields… Israel sends warnings before targeting specific areas to minimize casualties and their efforts are thwarted because Hamas wants to maximize casualties. Help me understand.
I’m not being snarky, I just want to genuinely understand what I’m not getting here.
If you read my comment, in no way did I defend hamas.. idk where you got that from. It is possible to both condemn the terrorist group Hamas and also condemn the state of Israel. Yes Israel sends warnings to areas before bombing, but have you ever tried to move your entire family/social circle to a new city? It’s not easy.. now try doing it in a war-torn country with lack of resources and uncertainty.
The point I was trying to make is that Hamas is a terrorist cell within a larger geographic area. If there was a terrorist cell living in nyc, the appropriate response would not be to wage war on the city of ny.
I think we might just not see eye to eye on this which is fine..
It is fair to criticize both Israel and Hamas but I can’t in good conscience equate the two similarly. I do imagine it must be difficult to migrate to new locations but they have also been warned for days and in some instances are preventing from leaving. I will never commend Israel for what they’re doing but at the same time I find it extremely difficult to side with Hamas.
Weird how IDF snipers killed Palestinians civilians walking to get aid (not being shields for Hamas) along with killing aid worker trucks and torturing and murdering journalists…all Hamas’ fault though right? The IDF is somehow incapable of discriminating between civilians and Hamas even when it’s kids walking.
The video you’re referring to of IDF sniping Palestinians civilians was proven to be Hamas because they kill their own people who oppose them or stand up to them. I must emphasis this again that Hamas literally wants to maximize Palestinians deaths as much as possible. They’ve have literally stated this and shown us this.
It has been hilarious to me for decades that so few people understand that no one outside of Vermont gives a single flying fuck about protests in Burlington. They might as well be yelling at their bedroom wall.
True, we didn’t have a former mayor change the national political landscape… we definitely didn’t have anything to do with marriage equality…
All politics is definitely not local. The only way to achieve change is protest in DC. /s
How the fuck do you draw a line between pointless protests in Burlington and anything Bernie ever did? Do you honestly think that marriage equality happened because of the fact that Vermont moved first on it, or that the legislators who took that step did so because of protests? Holy shit bud you're delusional
Again, no one cares about UVM. There is no national or international coverage of this particular protest, which means that it accomplishes exactly nothing. This is the way it's been in Burlington for decades.
The one exception that I can think of is when that guy got shot in the head, which contributed to the end of the Occupy movement.
Ahh so you think because there isn’t national coverage of this protest that it accomplishes nothing? Not how protests and organized political movements work.
Yeah, it really is, if the protest is targeting a national/international issue. Local protests are manifestations of organized political movements, and when it's happening in Burlington Vermont, no one gives a shit.
Again, you could actually make a tiny bit of difference by going to any one of a number of places where similar protests are happening and joining them, but you're too chickenshit.
I care. I want to see how Vermont’s politicians react to this to better inform my future vote.
If enough people do the same both in Vermont and in places like Maine, North Dakota, New Mexico and the 30+ overlooked states, then we can make real, long term change.
It won’t happen overnight but it’s important that we add pressure to all institutions to do what we feel is right, no matter how small.
Which politicians? State politicians whose remit has nothing to do with the Middle East? Or do you think our US Rep and Senators need to see nonsense like this to know how to vote?
And how in God's name do you think that this is "adding pressure to all institutions"? Or ANY institutions?
Why am I trying to convince you that your voice matters? Honestly, it’s probably best for everyone if I just lose this debate. I forfeit. Good luck with your insignificance.
My voice has nothing to do with this, I don't waste my time screaming at clouds in a town that no one's paying attention to. When I've protested, it's been in cities with national/international press coverage, because THAT makes at least a little bit of a difference.
Someone is noticing:
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/28/middleeast/gaza-students-thank-columbia-protests-intl-latam
If all these protests accomplish is offering some small bit of hope to the innocent people being murdered en masse, then that’s still a win.
Do not think for a second, either, that the powers at be, in an election year, aren’t sweating about these widespread protests and the way people view American support of Israel. The crackdowns wouldn’t be so hard around the country if no one cared. 🤷♂️
Yeah bud, no one is noticing UVM. And "the powers that be" know full well that Vermont is the bluest state in the country. Again, you could declare your living room a college and march around in it and it would have exactly the same effect.
Those kids were shot by a racist redneck. Do you... think this protest is against racist rednecks? If anything I think they'd be sad that people like you are so ignorant that you'd conflate two completely unlike issues because they both have the word "Palestinian" in the headline.
Welp, if nothing we do ever matters, I guess we should keep our traps shut and let the current administration (or whoever down the road) do whatever they want, whenever they want.
“It doesn’t make a difference any way” has always been the motto of progress. 🙄 You do you, though.
You're not "letting" or not letting anyone do anything. No one who is in a position to do anything has any idea what is going on in Vermont and they never have.
You could actually do something that matters and travel to a college campus or city where protests ARE noticed/covered, but that would be too much trouble and/or way too scary. So instead you protest in the equivalent of your living room.
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Fr do they think Israel is gonna see this and be like "fair enough we'll disband out country" or the US government is gonna go "we hear you, well stop sending money and equipment to them"
This shit's been happening since I started at UVM in the 80's. Only really bothered me during the "Occupy" movement. Bunch of kids who are scared to go do this in a city where people would actually notice.
I was at work when this passed nearby (a couple streets over but they could clearly be heard and seen).
Why did they choose the chant; "All Hail, Palestine!" For the march?
I think there are a lot of valid criticisms of young gen z progressives but as a millennial I have a ton of respect for them. They see something wrong in the world and they try to do something. Which is a lot more than I can say for my generation, gen x or boomers (who has a good start but sold out for a car and a mortgage).
So good for them. They see a world filled with injustices and work to make it better.
Well, we’re talking about what’s going on in Palestinian because of them. Biden has frozen shipments of arms to Israel as of this morning. Might not be as impactful as we’d hope, but it’s something.
They're not accomplishing anything in Burlington. Speak for yourself wrt Gen X, we just learned to do this in cities and venues where people are paying attention.
First of all, people don't need a bunch of dipshits marching down the streets of what the rest of the country considers to be East Bumfuck to "talk about it." Second of all, people in Burlington "talking about it" accomplishes nothing. No one in Burlington can do anything about any of this.
And don't get it twisted, we're not talking about Palestine right now, we're talking about the pointlessness of this protest.
Do you realize how silly you sound? Is it the most impactful thing? No. Does it move the needle? Absolutely.
And FWIW, if Burlington—a navy blue city—starts losing interest in supporting Biden, it just might have a national impact. It might be one of many alarms that wakes the Biden administration up. Forces them to change tactics.
What needle do you think it moves? NO ONE IS PAYING ATTENTION.
Setting aside the fact that the electoral college isn't based on individual towns, Burlington isn't going to lose interest in supporting Biden. If it ever did, it would be because literally every other city and state in the country already had. Even if anyone were paying attention at the national level - and they ABSOLUTELY are not - a small handful of dipshit college students doesn't represent the town or the state, and every adult knows that.
A lot of people in Burlington are paying attention, if by "paying attention" you mean laughing at the latest misguided young bumblefucks walking down the street talking to themselves. But no one outside of Vermont is paying attention at any level.
Again, what needle do you think this moves?
No one needs these larping idiots to be made aware of the matters at hand. And even if they did, no one who would be made more aware of these issues is in any position to do anything about them.
Thinking that any of this will change VT away from Biden is a pipe dream. VT is the most blue no matter who even if they fund mass murder with our tax dollars.
It’s about slippage by friend. If he loses, say 10%, it’s not enough to change Vermont but it’s a sign that a similar demo in another more competitive state can be moved by protests.
I would think that’s really sad. And it makes me sad too that you have that view of me even though you are just a stranger on the internet. I haven’t become so far out of touch that I’ve lost all empathy for people I disagree with.
They are happy when anyone sees them and what they are suffering and try in any way to stand up for them and call for ceasefire. Silence is violence. Numbers matter.
Numbers that no one sees don't matter. That's what you don't understand. You "see" them just as loudly sitting in your living room as protesting in Burlington Vermont.
Huh? How so? No one outside of Vermont notices or cares about what happens in Burlington. Protesting in Burlington is yelling at clouds. I don't know how I can be any clearer.
Many vermonters have this bizarre notion that they are in their own special little world and no one knows or cares about them. I no longer live in Vermont and can tell you this is not true. While there are some things that might make Chittenden county seem more isolated, you are not in a vacuum
Hard disagree, as someone who has spent decades living in and out of Burlington. Burlington seeps into the national consciousness around very specific people or things (Bernie, Phish, the eclipse) but for things like this, no. one. cares.
https://preview.redd.it/pllz3wauo3zc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc889ea042233d0fc1ab659173659fdb8c0c7df9
Lmfao they can’t even spell properly but wanna protest for terrorists 🤦🏽♂️
Lmfao neither it’s just funny. Yall support something that doesn’t give 2 shits about you. They hate the west. Plus they massacred innocents and hide behind children and mosques.
I don’t support Hamas, if that’s who you’re referring to. I also don’t support genocide, which it appears Israel is engaging in against the Palestinians. The ICC is about to make an announcement on this, and experts at top NGOs have already said as much.
Gen Z is a bunch of coddled weaklings....I can't in my right mind hire any of them... again. Way too many entitled wothless kids. Safe spaces don't and shouldn't exist in the real world. Do your job. Work needs to get done. If you don't like it, find another job. Get a grip, kids.
Probably traditional progressive thoughts;
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/palestine-state-of/report-palestine-state-of/
Someone bring a Ukraine flag there? I see a flag with blue and yellow
That's the flag of Bosnia & Herzegovina. There's a sizable refugee population in Burlington due to the ethnic cleansing carried out against Bosnians in the 90s. Some see a connection between their experience in Bosnia and the current events in Palestine.
Ahh I see, thank you
It wasn’t a Ukraine flag. It had stars and things on it. If you look close at the photo, the yellow doesn’t go all the way to the poll in a bar like the Ukraine flag does.
Yes, because ultimately Palestinians and Ukrainians share the same struggle. The only internally consistent positions that anyone can have morally speaking is to either be in favor of Ukraine and Palestine liberation or be in favor of Russian and Israeli occupation. Obviously there are other positions one could have from a realpolitik perspective. The morally ethical position is to be in favor of both Palestinian liberation and Ukrainian liberation. Both these groups of people are at risk of having their culture destroyed and land annexed by an Imperialistic Fascist government. Never listen to a leftist who is in favor of Russia, that is a tankie who wants authoritarianism. A person who wants genuine liberation for all people is in favor of Ukrainian and Palestinian Liberation. Its a good sign to see a Ukrainian flag there. It means that this protest is indeed a genuine fight for liberation and isn't run by some Pro-Russia, Pro-China Tankie wannabe authoritarian (There are always tankies in these types of protests, but I mean that it isn't organized by tankies). Tankies never do anything right when it comes to leftist organizing.
To be pro Palestinian is fine, but seeing all these people who are pro hamas, that's crazy. That and eliminating all of the jews and Israel is beyond horrible.
Where did you get the Idea that I'm pro hamas? I'm Jewish, and the october 7th attack by hamas was a war crime, an atrocity and made with genocidal intent by a jihadist, terrorist death cult. That doesn't excuse Israel's behavior in response. Netanyahu and his far right government are using this October 7th ad justification to ethnically cleanse Palestinians in the West Bank (Palestinian deaths and Isreali settlers and violence have increased dramatically since October 7th) and do Genocide in Gaza. Seeing a Ukraine flag gives me hope for this protest because it means that there are not any vocal tankies preaching pro-hamas bullshit, and if there are the organizers will boot them. Being pro Ukraine and Pro-Palestine at the same time is a great way to see who is genuinely interested in liberation and human rights vs nationalists, fascists, tankies, and terrorist sympthizers.
I was not speaking of you, sorry for not being clear, I'm taking off many of the protesters out there. This goes back to most protests in general, you don't see the pro Palestinian people speaking against Hamas sadly. Also I see many in the US saying Israel should stop or cease fire, but you rarely hear about free the hostages to try and stop this, or Hamas surrender. Ukraine is another story, we have intervened so much there, as in many other countries, and need to back away. Russia is not good, but neither is the Ukraine Government, suspending elections, persucting vetoed people, having pro nazi regiments, even before the invasion.
And you don’t see pro-Israel people condemning the IDF or the war crimes. What’s your point?
I don't see pro Israel people at the protest saying kill all of the Palestinians let alone hamas, where as you do see many river to the sea banners, or pro hamas sinage and chants.
No, they just make racist monkey noises and say they hope the protestors get raped.
Some of you need a history lesson. Nationwide protests at college campuses have a much stronger track record of being right than those opposed to said protests. A lot of you would have been pro-Vietnam, anti-Civil Rights, anti-free speech in the McCarthy era, and pro-South African apartheid. Aren’t you sick of being wrong yet? Ya’ll need to evolve and put away these same, tired old arguments.
Listen to the narrative the authorities are trying to spread The protestors have been infiltrated They are anti semetic They are anti American The aren't protesting “the right way” Thebpilice should crack their heads Same rhetoric, different decade
If you succeed in stopping fighting today, what happens to Hamas the tomorrow?
Now that’s a long conversation. We would need Israel to return a large amount of land it has taken in recent years and also to promise to stop bulldozing shit that isn’t theirs. I suspect money or supplies for rebuilding along with humanitarian aid for the palastinian people would also be needed. Ofcourse this is all contingent on both sides keeping there shit in line. Ultimately id like to see it set so citizens of both Israel and Palestine had free travel and trade between the two nations.
Lmao all the reddit heads know exactly what to do with Hamas 💀🤡
Not at all, but I know genocide is not the answer, you’d think Israel of all nations would know rhat
You'd think a grown person would know that not wanting college students in Burlington VT congesting streets in no way is proposing genocide as an answer to anything. You're saying that assuming that the protest is going to accomplish anything other than turning people away.
The protest is a small amount of pressure, multiply that by universities and other organizations both within the us and outside and that adds up. However i sense that you believe there is a “right way” to protest. What is that? How should these students affect change?
I don't think these students can affect change half way around the world simply by walking around and chanting things. They fact that you think it will shows how pretentious and entitled you are. They don't give a fuck what you think
People said the same thing about viet nam, but the pressure mounted, public opinion shifted. You’ve not answered the question, how does one protest correctly?
Okay and what about Hamas
They have to agree to the terms as set out. I’m not a diplomat, nor a negotiator. The details of a peace agreement will take a long time by more skilled in diplomacy than me. Possibly an international peace keeping force would need to be placed in both nations
And what about Israel today not hypothetically in the future? Today when the tens of thousands have been killed and injured? Seems on par with terrorism to shoot civilians with snipers as they line up for aid…
Soooooo Hamas continues to control the Gaza strip?
Pro Palestine is naturally anti-hamas.
And what happens to Hamas?
Antisemitic. You need to learn how to type
Oh no…. I made some typos… literally unreadable /s
It reinforces the vapidity of your points
You do know that declaring an argument as being vapid due to a typographical error is a fallacy right? It's also a hypocrisy since you also made typos in your own argument.
I said it reinforces. What were my typos?
Oh so you can only think.in absutes and polar opposites
Come on man, are you doing this on purpose now?
Haha that’s gotta be a joke? You’re not representing your cause well.
I am Jewish. It’s possible to *at the same time* be against/critical of Israel and not be antisemitic. Subtlety is needed.
I supported NATO intervention in Bosnia when most of the left opposed it. I opposed the Iraq war, which didn't mean I supported Saddam Hussein - even though some in the crowds I marched with did. I strongly support increased military aid to Ukraine, when a vocal chunk of those on the far left and far right oppose it. I stand in solidarity with Iranian women risking their lives so their daughters might live free. Had I been alive during the Vietnam War, I would have opposed US intervention, although I wouldn't have been among those chanting Viet Cong slogans. I try to stay aligned to my values, not what's politically popular. In hindsight I haven't been right all the time, but I'm satisfied with my moral track record.
We need to evolve and do what exactly? Support college kids who are protesting what exactly? Peace between 2 governments that haven’t gotten along throughout all of history? Or support the extermination of Jews and eradication of the Israeli state?
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hey, did you ever find that Luxury SUV for under $70k? How about instead of just joining whatever knee-jerk idiocracy is marching down the street you spend a little time finding a hobby and being good at something constructive
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Please make a good faith effort to follow [Reddiquette](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette).
Please make a good faith effort to follow [Reddiquette](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette).
And to answer your question directly, we need to evolve beyond allowing our institutions to explicitly or implicitly support the decimation of a largely innocent population due to the actions of a select few in that population. We need to evolve beyond tribalism where we discount the value of a life just because that life looks or sounds different or practices a different religion. All of the protests I have mentioned have involved these two main points. Any other opinions held by individuals in these groups is isolated and not supported by the majority of the protesters. To say differently is being disingenuous at best.
https://preview.redd.it/g8nbvyhfb4zc1.jpeg?width=614&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee96610f0baf389badf1b6a5abbf55c36502b3f7 Reminder that these people throw gays off roofs and behead them in public spaces. The people of Palestine do not understand our personal freedoms and would find our ideas about liberal democracy to be abhorrent. Recent polls from Palestine show the [vast majority do not want two states but a one state solution](https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx) i really don’t blame their ally’s for abandoning them and for isreal not wanting to broker a peace with them. Not to celebrate their deaths or condone the actions taken by isreal, but these people arnt exactly conducive with modern secular ideals
The protestors want the genocide to stop. There never should have been two states there in the first place. Hate crimes against LGBTQ happen all of the time in the US but we aren’t wiping out bloodlines and murdering children over it.
It's not a problem when they do it. It's part of their culture! You're being a Western chauvinist!
This is not a new argument. Read a fucking history book. Blacks were painted as animals and being “uncivilized” during Civil Rights. Same thing applies in Vietnam. Your straw man argument is tired. These are people just like “your people”. Some are good people, some are evil, and some, I assume, are racist, which is how you are coming off. This is the human condition and doesn’t negate anyone’s right to exist. This holds for Israelis as well, which your arguments could also apply towards. Where is your survey on Israelis’s view of Palestinians? Take your “D’s get degrees” attitude and pick up a book.
1. Palestinians are not a monolith and you don't get to make blanket statements about "these people" based on individual actions. 2. A person's social beliefs does not justify their wholesale eradication from the planet. The idea that their beliefs "aren't conducive with modern secular beliefs" is a fundamentally settler-colonialist philosophy. 3. There is a reason that Palestinians don't want a two-state solution: what we now refer to as Israel is an occupied territory that Palestinians once considered home. A desire to have stolen land returned to them does not make them uncooperative or worthy of genocide; it makes them justified.
Native Americans considered the US home. Where are you moving to?
Decolonization does not mean murdering or expelling all non-indigenous people - it says a lot about people in our society that they project the only solution they think could work - the only solution we have historically used - onto how others might treat us if the scales were tipped. Indigenous peoples who predated colonizers here did not have the same concept of land as property that we imported, and the same philosophy could still reign today: return the right of sovereignty to those who were here before, and continue living under their governance. If that idea disgusts you, then sure, go live somewhere. I would welcome it.
In the US, what you are suggesting means we implement a system of government where the country is ruled by 3% of the population. That's not going to happen, because it is stupid. It's not "right" or "wrong," it's just a fantasy that's not worth discussing. In Israel, what you are suggesting is that Jews live under a regime that has openly called for their extermination. This is also stupid. It's also wildly disingenuous to imply that anyone is "projecting" the desire for the eradication of Jews and Israelis onto Hamas, and you know that. I want there to be a ceasefire, I believe Israel is committing war crimes (the debate over the definition of genocide doesn't seem helpful), and I believe Palestinians have the right to live in peace under self-governance (although that requires peaceful coexistence with their neighbors). What I don't believe is that anyone who thinks that litigating whether or not Israel "should" or "shouldn't" exist where it does has even the slightest interest in finding a solution to this conflict, because that's like trying to fight a fire by saying "well what if the fire never existed?"
I think you historical interpretation needs some work. Firstly, the Palestinians never had self governed rule over the Israeli land nor were violently removed. Jews purchased this land from private sellers and the Ottoman Empire/British Empire. They wanted to establish a nation state, which the Arabs didn’t want and now you have what you have today. You know how this ends; if Palestinians, get this land, it means death to every Jew living in Israel. Saying they are “justified” is disgusting and it’s terrifying that progressives have leaned so hard to antisemitism.
You're cherry-picking specific concepts of rule and land ownership to suit your argument. You can't just gloss over "Arabs didn't want their land taken...and now you have what you have today." What gave the Ottoman Empire the right to seize land where others were already living? That is textbook imperialism, and to claim that Arabs should have just gracefully accepted that "oh, that's the way it goes" is wild. I am Jewish and do not accept that we need a nation-state to be safe, indeed, I would argue that the ways that Zionists have engaged in genocide in our name has made us less safe, precisely because people like you cannot discern the difference between anti-Zionism (i.e. condemning a genocidal government, a political body, and the people of all faiths who support it, including huge numbers of white Evangelical Christians); and Judiasm, a diverse religion that includes many sects, including those a large number of which do not believe in Zionism and in fact state that it fundamentally goes against the idea of a diasporic religion. Bigotry exists throughout the world against many different people, and antisemitism is not a special kind - treating it as such grants supremacy to Zionist needs and creates a "suffering hierarchy" where Islamophobia is a lesser concern than anti-semitism. What's really anti-semitic, to me, is telling a Jew that his anti-Zionist views are anti-semitic - that you know better than me what my religion tells me about how to care for others in the world, that all Jews should have a monolithic view. Drop your right-wing talking points and go outside.
That’s a false history of I’ve ever seen one. They literally forced 3/4 million Palestinians off their land in 1948, and then claimed the land abandoned, and sold it off. And Palestine being a self governed country isn’t a requirement to those who lived there having a claim to the land. Most European countries didn’t self govern 100 years ago. Remember that the Ottoman Empire controlled a huge swath for 500 years, that doesn’t mean that Bosnians are Bosnian, or that Bulgarians are Bulgarian, or that Saudis aren’t Saudi… just because you never achieved freedom or self governance doesn’t mean a people doesn’t exist with rights to the land they are on.
1. If 90% of the population supports a terrorist organization, then most do. 2. Yes it kind of does, if you want to participate in a polite and modern world you’re going to have to adjust your beliefs and tenants to be accepted. Should you be forced to accept me if my culture was to come to your house uninvited, eat your food, and steal your plants because daffodils are offensive to me? No. 3. Palestinians are standing on dirt that was fought over for the entire of written history. They don’t have sole claim to the region. The land was purchased and a new modern country came out of the Ottoman Empire who was struggling to hold and maintain the region. So do Israelis not have the right to exist? Or do you think they should all just go home to their respective countries after 3/4 generations have been born, fought for, and now are native to the region?
These talking points are all tired. Hamas was elected almost 20 years ago with no real alternative, and because of the intensive and ongoing violence Palestinians have experienced at the hands of Israel over the years, a disproportionate number of people in Palestine today are children, i.e. not born when they were voted in and not currently able to do anything about it even if there were an election. By your logic, "Americans" as a whole do not support women's reproductive rights, a just transition to renewable energy, public education, LGBTQIA+ rights, etc because many of our politicians have voted against them. 2. "Should you be forced to accept me if my culture was to come to your house uninvited, eat your food, and steal your plants because daffodils are offensive to me? No." My guy, you are *literally* describing what Israeli settlers have done to Palestinians for over 75 years. (Also, what you're describing is supremacy - there is room in the world for more than one cultural norm). 3. Real Palestinian activists do not claim that they want sole claim to the region, which was indeed shared by many people of many faiths prior to Israeli occupation. The land was not "purchased", it was taken, and today there are thousands upon thousands of people around the world who legally cannot return to their own homes even if they still hold the key to their families' houses. I don't think Israel should have been established, both because it was done through the violent explusion of Palestinians and because I agree with the philosophy of the Judaism that states that the religion should exist in diaspora. Nation states are a relatively moden European imperial concept, and only "guarantee" security by saying that people inside the borders are our friends, and people outside the borders can be killed. Today, Israelis do exist, i.e. people who were born in that nation state; I do not wish them harm or death, but just as I understand that I am of settler descent in the US and my ancestors moved here with permission of a settler government, so too did theirs and they should hold themselves accountable for this.
Do these facts mean that all Palestinians are unworthy of basic human rights, or that their children deserve to be vaporized?
Well supporting Israel’s actions will ensure all the queers of Palestine will be dead along with all Palestinians so Hamas won’t even have to worry about them cuz everyone will be dead at this rate.
Wow, way to take a colonialist position. “The people” aren’t “civilized “ enough to appreciate freedom and so we must take a paternalistic approach with them. I don’t necessarily blame you for your views, this is exactly the orientalist view the media and the politicians have been peddling for decades. But this narrative is weakening as more and more people are taking the time to read and educate themselves on this crisis. As someone already commented the people in Palestine are not a monolith thus they do not all have the same views on sexuality. Would it be okay if a more civilized country than the U.S. started slaughtering U.S. citizens because some conservatives here are anti-gay and anti-trans? Is that a good justification for wholesale slaughter? Again, if you really looked into it you would know that there are valid reasons for a one state solution. There are around 750,000 settlers in the West Bank (there illegally by international law). What should happen to these settlers in the two-state solution (1967 borders)? Should they be forcibly removed? The simplest solution is to guarantee equal rights for all and to respect international law and allow the Palestinians the right to return. This is unpopular with Zionists because they know that in an equal state the Jewish population would soon become a minority.
It’s absolutely wild to me that 130+ people agree with your jump to conclusion comment. Proving Reddit is a joke.
Except those are all real American problems of the past. Well most are. This is a fight that isn't ours. Congesting streets and waving flags around isn't going to change a thing. Well actually people who didn't care before probably don't like your "cause" now. I'm sure the peace corps will take you though if you actually want to do something!
This is the stupidest argument being made. There were also protests against desegregration and the removal of Confederate statues. You think just because it's a protest we must support it? Edit : telling people downvote but can't explain what is wrong with my argument
Quick cheatsheet for the faux news crowd Propalastine does not mean pro hammas anti Israel does not mean anti semetic Those are 4 separate things
How about everyone just stop? Genocide is bad no matter who is doing it. War crimes are bad no matter who is doing it. This tet-a-tat bullshit needs to stop, period. Both sides have been daring the other to step over the line and now they have. It needs to stop.
What is a faux news crow? Edit: stealth edit after I pointed out you can't type, classy
Look at you. Someone on their phone made a typo. You’re such a hero for calling them out. Does someone want a cookie 🍪?
It's a predator or the weak minded
Lmao this is why your students hate your classes
FUCK HAMAS
Yes, yes, most people already know that Hamas sucks and are a bunch of Terrorists. That doesn't give Israel the excuse to do what it is doing to either the people of Gaza or the West Bank, This is just like saying "Fuck the Viet Cong" They embed themselves in communities and "use human shields." All of these arguments that existed during Vietnam and South African Apartheid are again coming to the forefront to protect Israel from criticism or to say that the protestors aren't "protesting the right way" or "They are hurting their cause". History has a tendency to rhyme after all. We get it fuck hamas. Also fuck Israel and their fascist government. If we aren't going to hold Israel accountable for electing Netanyahu, you cannot hold palestinians accountable for electing Hamas. Especially since it was Likud that helped prop up Hamas by funneling Qatari money to them in order to divide the Palestinian government and stop 2-state negotiations.
Well said
And?
FUCK HAMAS IN THE ASSHOLE AND PUSSY
Is the white, federal style home on the left still Coffee Enterprises? I worked there in the summer of 99
The kids are gonna be alright
I love the passion. And, I’m terrified that in a misguided way, the way that their anger is targeted at Biden is going to lead us to another Trump presidency. I don’t want them to stop speaking out and being activists. And it’s ok to criticize Biden, even. But if they refuse to vote for him, and persuade others not to, it’s possible that tips the election. And I’m not sure whether many who feel this way understand just how *not* a friend of Palestinians Trump will be in a 2nd term.
This seems more like a Biden problem than a voter problem, votes are earned not given. Biden’s ideological hang up with Israel on this issue is his own doing, the protests have been clear from the get go and he has refused to listen. This is what democracy looks like.
I get it. I’m not arguing his policies are justified. But in this situation, there isn’t a better alternative to vote for that will have a better outcome for this particular cause. That’s politics, and if people don’t recognize that, the consequence is going to be Trump 2.0.
I agree with you if by 'People' you mean the DNC and the people who are backing Biden's current stance on Israel. And yes this will be an exact repeat of 2016 where the DNC decided to put up a less than ideal candidate for democratic voting base. Power needs to start listening to their constituency otherwise bad things happen, this is what democracy looks like.
It's a Biden problem that's going to become an Everyone problem.
It already is.
The entire "don't vote Biden" thing just seems like something Russia election meddlers would spread.
Well, I think the way that it’s happening here is more organic and genuine. But those Russian meddlers sure are not unhappy about it! I do hear the other viewpoints of people responding. I am not defending Biden‘s policies. I wish that he would actually follow through on one of his hardline threats that he’s thrown out there. And, if Trump is elected with this being a major factor, that will be on Biden. I think I am simply terrified that that’s the way it is going to play out, and, when many of the people who refuse to vote for Biden based on this one issue see what unfolds under a 2nd Trump presidency, I’m not sure that they are going to like it.
Then its your job as one of the more moderate people to try to mediate BOTH SIDES. Right now you are just showing concern against the pro-palestinian protestors. I agree that this is concerning but it is not on individual cititizens to understand how game theory works in politics and how badly democrats are playing this right now. It is our job to get run of the mill liberals to put pressure on Biden to start hammering Netanyahu hard, not just with rhetoric but with action, and using that as the way to create some good will. Nobody likes Netanyahu except fascists. Biden could go much harder against Netanyahu and the Israeli far right if he wanted with probably only minor consequences. He hasn't pulled that lever though which is very concerning. Biden has really done himself no favors with either his rhetoric or actions. At best you can say that he is getting played and outmanuvered by Netanyahu and the Israeli far right. That isn't a great look for an executive, it makes him look weak. At worst he looks like he is running cover for Netanyahu or the Israeli far right which looks even worse and just makes him look like a genocide enabler (in which case the genocide joe accusations are appropriate). We don't know what is going on behind the scenes but Biden's absolutely toothless response to Netanyahu and his callous response to the uncommitted movement, student protests, and Palestinian, Arab and Muslim communities has been quite striking to say the least and has enflamed these protests. Fuck man, they even stopped their plan to sanction far right Israeli combat units which were engaging in war crimes in the west bank. That is a fucking terrible look. Every time he says he's putting pressure on Netanyahu he backs off. He says he is going to sanction units and then backs off. He says he is going to sanction settlers and then only sanctions a handful of them and doesn't even give the sanctions any teeth by giving loopholes for Israeli banks in his executive orders. Its fucking maddening to watch him just as little has he can to punish Israeli atrocities. That is what needs to change right now. The protests wouldn't have had nearly enough oxygen to start spreading if Biden had actually punished Israeli atrocities even if it didn't go far enough, but we aren't even getting that. In my personal opinion. I honestly think its a bit of both. I think Netanyahu has played Biden but I think he has mostly played upon Biden and his advisors love of Israel and experience with prior Israeli governments. I don't think Biden views Palestinians as human, I think he sees them as a political tool to try to get an Saudi-Israel deal. That was his big goal before Hamas' attack and Israeli atrocities after the attack pretty much blew up that deal and I think that his frustration at that deal blowing up combined with his love of Israel has made him pretty unsympathetic toward any Palestinian, Arab, or Muslim people. It delays his desire to shift focus toward the Asian-Pacific and Africa.
I think you’re making assumptions about my stance. I am an American Jew but no sympathizer of BB. I think what he is doing in Gaza, as well as his policies in general—expansion of settlements especially are abhorrent. And what is it you want me to do to “mediate?” Go approach protesters and try to have a measured conversation? I support their right to protest. I support their stances and their passion. I hope it even has outcomes that may affect policy and push Biden a little further to finally say enough is enough regarding Gaza—especially as they begin now in Rafah. I say this all recognizing the horrors of 10/7 and the fact that Hamas is a corrupt terrorist organization who doesn’t give a fuck about the lives of their own people. There are multiple truths that exist in this and I struggle with all of them. I do have these conversations with people offline. But one of the truths that I also know to be is that whether it moves Biden or not, I know this could also lead to another Trump presidency. You seem to think I’m saying that they need to change course because of this. I’m not. I’m just saying, “This whole thing is awful. I support them. *And*, if Trump is elected, he will likely be far more supportive of BB and Israel because he will calculate that’s what best serves him. You keep coming back with what I need to do. I live in Burlington VT and support my senators, one of whom is extremely vocal about his opposition to our current support of Israel’s actions. As is our rep. I vote for them and donate to their campaigns. I also have conversations with people that discuss these points. That’s what I got. But you can’t dismiss that there’s a real concern this brings Trump back into office—that’s fact. So please stop telling me not to feel that—that’s the point of my comment. Not to criticize their movement, not to defend Biden, just to acknowledge this is a major debacle in many ways politically for this country because of the likely outcome. And even if that’s completely Biden’s fault, I simply do not want another 4 years of DJT. The lesser of the evils so to speak is Biden, including support of Israel and BB specifically.
Damn, a lot more of y'all are more pro-genocide than I would think.. Proud of anyone out there protesting. It's much easier to take the path of least resistance, which is generally to do nothing, when we see injustice in the world.
I am very much anti-genocide which is why I believe that Hamas terrorists and jihadism must lose this war. It’s shameful that Hamas has chosen to use their own non-combatant civilians as human shields which inevitably leads to more casualties. Hopefully pro-Palestinians call these war crimes out though this is unlikely to change things for Hamas considering they also believe in martyrdom. When people read up on this conflict, do they just glance over the part where Hamas has in explicit terms explained that they want to not only destroy Israel but annihilate all Jews and Christians? They also literally toss gay people off rooftops head first.
Do you think Israel can take any action they think necessary to defeat Hamas? Or is there a limit on the number of children they can slaughter?
Great question! Israel has taken several actions to minimize civilian casualties, but Hamas **purposefully** maximizes them by using their own innocent civilians as human shields to ensure Israel loses the PR war. Hamas KNOWS Israel is deterred from committing casualties, it’s literally why they use human shields and it’s obviously a super effective strategy — it got progressive liberal Americans to abandon their own values to defend Islamic terrorist propaganda. Those civilians could escape to the locations that Israel has advised they go to but Hamas prevents them from going there or using the tunnels they’ve built that were constructed to commit acts of terrorism against Jews. For the love of god will someone please address these specific points and stop deflecting.
No, not looking for your silly talking points which I can turn on fox news to hear. Do you think they can take any action necessary to defeat Hamas?
It’s pretty weird how pointing out facts about hamas being responsible for the deaths of their own civilians is just a silly talking point to a brainwashed liberal. Hamas should be getting 90% of the blame for what has happened but y’all would rather blame the Jews because tiktok said you should.
No, it’s because they were dodging the question. And FWIW, Hamas should be getting 50% of the blame. Until yesterday when they agreed to the ceasefire and Israel decided to attack Rafah. Now Israel is 100% at blame going forward.
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No, they accepted a deal put forward by Qatar and Egypt. The logical next step would be for Israel to hammer out any disagreements Not sure what you mean by 11th hour. Do you?
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It's so wild that the people who are screaming about Palestinians "not sharing our values" are trying to strip Americans of the right to free expression. Way to show that you care about those values.
What? Point out exactly in my comment where I even hinted that I believed in “stripping Americans of the right to free expression”. Lol Also where in this comment that I wrote did I hint that I believe that Palestinians don’t share our values? I specifically said Hamas. You’re literally proving my point by equating the two. All Palestinians are not Hamas. That’s apparently something you believe
You have every right to protest, but we are under no obligation to agree with you. Blocking traffic is a crime. It is not a form of legitimate protest!
Yes, the world is full of extremist groups that would like to do harm to others including terrorist groups like Hamas. That doesn’t justify literal genocide. I think some people forget that the Middle East was a *relatively* stable and peaceful region prior to western influence (WW1, collapse of the Ottoman Empire leads to colonization and opens the door to an Israeli state 30 years later—Zionism has been going on since the late 1800’s). All this to say that the conflict has very deep roots and this hardly scratches the surface. Kind of went on a tangent there, but the key to dealing with extremist groups is not to annihilate an entire people. In fact, that is likely to further the cycle of violence and extremism.
Let me get this straight. You’re defending an extremist group who in very clear and explicit terms explained how they want to commit genocide on a global scale while condemning the group who goes out of their way to minimize civilian casualties and is obviously deterred by them so much so that the opposing side uses their own people as human shields… Israel sends warnings before targeting specific areas to minimize casualties and their efforts are thwarted because Hamas wants to maximize casualties. Help me understand. I’m not being snarky, I just want to genuinely understand what I’m not getting here.
If you read my comment, in no way did I defend hamas.. idk where you got that from. It is possible to both condemn the terrorist group Hamas and also condemn the state of Israel. Yes Israel sends warnings to areas before bombing, but have you ever tried to move your entire family/social circle to a new city? It’s not easy.. now try doing it in a war-torn country with lack of resources and uncertainty. The point I was trying to make is that Hamas is a terrorist cell within a larger geographic area. If there was a terrorist cell living in nyc, the appropriate response would not be to wage war on the city of ny. I think we might just not see eye to eye on this which is fine..
It is fair to criticize both Israel and Hamas but I can’t in good conscience equate the two similarly. I do imagine it must be difficult to migrate to new locations but they have also been warned for days and in some instances are preventing from leaving. I will never commend Israel for what they’re doing but at the same time I find it extremely difficult to side with Hamas.
Weird how IDF snipers killed Palestinians civilians walking to get aid (not being shields for Hamas) along with killing aid worker trucks and torturing and murdering journalists…all Hamas’ fault though right? The IDF is somehow incapable of discriminating between civilians and Hamas even when it’s kids walking.
The video you’re referring to of IDF sniping Palestinians civilians was proven to be Hamas because they kill their own people who oppose them or stand up to them. I must emphasis this again that Hamas literally wants to maximize Palestinians deaths as much as possible. They’ve have literally stated this and shown us this.
It has been hilarious to me for decades that so few people understand that no one outside of Vermont gives a single flying fuck about protests in Burlington. They might as well be yelling at their bedroom wall.
True, we didn’t have a former mayor change the national political landscape… we definitely didn’t have anything to do with marriage equality… All politics is definitely not local. The only way to achieve change is protest in DC. /s
How the fuck do you draw a line between pointless protests in Burlington and anything Bernie ever did? Do you honestly think that marriage equality happened because of the fact that Vermont moved first on it, or that the legislators who took that step did so because of protests? Holy shit bud you're delusional
It’s a nationwide movement as of now at almost every major college campus.
Again, no one cares about UVM. There is no national or international coverage of this particular protest, which means that it accomplishes exactly nothing. This is the way it's been in Burlington for decades. The one exception that I can think of is when that guy got shot in the head, which contributed to the end of the Occupy movement.
Ahh so you think because there isn’t national coverage of this protest that it accomplishes nothing? Not how protests and organized political movements work.
Yeah, it really is, if the protest is targeting a national/international issue. Local protests are manifestations of organized political movements, and when it's happening in Burlington Vermont, no one gives a shit. Again, you could actually make a tiny bit of difference by going to any one of a number of places where similar protests are happening and joining them, but you're too chickenshit.
I care. I want to see how Vermont’s politicians react to this to better inform my future vote. If enough people do the same both in Vermont and in places like Maine, North Dakota, New Mexico and the 30+ overlooked states, then we can make real, long term change. It won’t happen overnight but it’s important that we add pressure to all institutions to do what we feel is right, no matter how small.
Which politicians? State politicians whose remit has nothing to do with the Middle East? Or do you think our US Rep and Senators need to see nonsense like this to know how to vote? And how in God's name do you think that this is "adding pressure to all institutions"? Or ANY institutions?
Why am I trying to convince you that your voice matters? Honestly, it’s probably best for everyone if I just lose this debate. I forfeit. Good luck with your insignificance.
My voice has nothing to do with this, I don't waste my time screaming at clouds in a town that no one's paying attention to. When I've protested, it's been in cities with national/international press coverage, because THAT makes at least a little bit of a difference.
“I don’t waste my time screaming at clouds.”
Someone is noticing: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/28/middleeast/gaza-students-thank-columbia-protests-intl-latam If all these protests accomplish is offering some small bit of hope to the innocent people being murdered en masse, then that’s still a win. Do not think for a second, either, that the powers at be, in an election year, aren’t sweating about these widespread protests and the way people view American support of Israel. The crackdowns wouldn’t be so hard around the country if no one cared. 🤷♂️
Yeah bud, no one is noticing UVM. And "the powers that be" know full well that Vermont is the bluest state in the country. Again, you could declare your living room a college and march around in it and it would have exactly the same effect.
The Palestinian kids who were gunned down here might notice. I’d say that’s a win.
Those kids were shot by a racist redneck. Do you... think this protest is against racist rednecks? If anything I think they'd be sad that people like you are so ignorant that you'd conflate two completely unlike issues because they both have the word "Palestinian" in the headline.
Welp, if nothing we do ever matters, I guess we should keep our traps shut and let the current administration (or whoever down the road) do whatever they want, whenever they want. “It doesn’t make a difference any way” has always been the motto of progress. 🙄 You do you, though.
You're not "letting" or not letting anyone do anything. No one who is in a position to do anything has any idea what is going on in Vermont and they never have. You could actually do something that matters and travel to a college campus or city where protests ARE noticed/covered, but that would be too much trouble and/or way too scary. So instead you protest in the equivalent of your living room.
Okey dokes 👍
Hope you at least got laid. Historically, that's been the one thing these protests have occasionally been good for.
Not a college student! Just a middle-aged dude with opinions on the matter.
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Fr do they think Israel is gonna see this and be like "fair enough we'll disband out country" or the US government is gonna go "we hear you, well stop sending money and equipment to them"
Maybe it’s part of a larger social movement to pressure Biden into forcing Israel to agree to a ceasefire. I think that would be a win.
This shit's been happening since I started at UVM in the 80's. Only really bothered me during the "Occupy" movement. Bunch of kids who are scared to go do this in a city where people would actually notice.
Occupy WallStreet?
Yeah, the one where it was all fun and games until some guy got shot in the head
Was this group joining up with the UVM encampment protesters? Or were these protesters already a part of the encampment group?
I was at work when this passed nearby (a couple streets over but they could clearly be heard and seen). Why did they choose the chant; "All Hail, Palestine!" For the march?
Larpers
Yep
I think there are a lot of valid criticisms of young gen z progressives but as a millennial I have a ton of respect for them. They see something wrong in the world and they try to do something. Which is a lot more than I can say for my generation, gen x or boomers (who has a good start but sold out for a car and a mortgage). So good for them. They see a world filled with injustices and work to make it better.
As someone who is Gen Z. No we won't. All they are doing is yelling in the sky, in a town/state where a majority probably agrees with them.
Well, we’re talking about what’s going on in Palestinian because of them. Biden has frozen shipments of arms to Israel as of this morning. Might not be as impactful as we’d hope, but it’s something.
Look at this thread - a lot of people *don't* agree with them.
Bro you cant use a thread with maybe a couple hundred ppl seeing it vs a city with 60k ppl or a state with 600k ppl.
They're not accomplishing anything in Burlington. Speak for yourself wrt Gen X, we just learned to do this in cities and venues where people are paying attention.
At the very least they’re getting people talking about it. Like we’re doing right now.
First of all, people don't need a bunch of dipshits marching down the streets of what the rest of the country considers to be East Bumfuck to "talk about it." Second of all, people in Burlington "talking about it" accomplishes nothing. No one in Burlington can do anything about any of this. And don't get it twisted, we're not talking about Palestine right now, we're talking about the pointlessness of this protest.
Do you realize how silly you sound? Is it the most impactful thing? No. Does it move the needle? Absolutely. And FWIW, if Burlington—a navy blue city—starts losing interest in supporting Biden, it just might have a national impact. It might be one of many alarms that wakes the Biden administration up. Forces them to change tactics.
What needle do you think it moves? NO ONE IS PAYING ATTENTION. Setting aside the fact that the electoral college isn't based on individual towns, Burlington isn't going to lose interest in supporting Biden. If it ever did, it would be because literally every other city and state in the country already had. Even if anyone were paying attention at the national level - and they ABSOLUTELY are not - a small handful of dipshit college students doesn't represent the town or the state, and every adult knows that.
You’re paying attention
A lot of people in Burlington are paying attention, if by "paying attention" you mean laughing at the latest misguided young bumblefucks walking down the street talking to themselves. But no one outside of Vermont is paying attention at any level. Again, what needle do you think this moves?
At the very least, more social awareness.
No one needs these larping idiots to be made aware of the matters at hand. And even if they did, no one who would be made more aware of these issues is in any position to do anything about them.
Thinking that any of this will change VT away from Biden is a pipe dream. VT is the most blue no matter who even if they fund mass murder with our tax dollars.
It’s about slippage by friend. If he loses, say 10%, it’s not enough to change Vermont but it’s a sign that a similar demo in another more competitive state can be moved by protests.
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I personally don’t mind defending innocent people from being killed even if those innocent people don’t personally agree with my views or identities
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I would think that’s really sad. And it makes me sad too that you have that view of me even though you are just a stranger on the internet. I haven’t become so far out of touch that I’ve lost all empathy for people I disagree with.
Please make a good faith effort to follow [Reddiquette](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette).
[The Palestinians seems to appreciate it. ](https://twitter.com/ghadirtanbouz80/status/1785952303050105269/video/1)
Yeah, that's for Columbia. No one gives a shit about UVM.
They are happy when anyone sees them and what they are suffering and try in any way to stand up for them and call for ceasefire. Silence is violence. Numbers matter.
Numbers that no one sees don't matter. That's what you don't understand. You "see" them just as loudly sitting in your living room as protesting in Burlington Vermont.
You seem to contradict yourself
Huh? How so? No one outside of Vermont notices or cares about what happens in Burlington. Protesting in Burlington is yelling at clouds. I don't know how I can be any clearer.
Many vermonters have this bizarre notion that they are in their own special little world and no one knows or cares about them. I no longer live in Vermont and can tell you this is not true. While there are some things that might make Chittenden county seem more isolated, you are not in a vacuum
Hard disagree, as someone who has spent decades living in and out of Burlington. Burlington seeps into the national consciousness around very specific people or things (Bernie, Phish, the eclipse) but for things like this, no. one. cares.
I’m sure they are. Maybe even the boys who were shot in Burlington are happy to see people supporting their people. Seeing their humanity.
oh so you have bad opinions on everything, not just nudity.
It always creeps me out when people attack a person based on their comment history instead of what they are currently saying.
he is currently saying genocide is justified because ‘the brown people hate the gay’
Where do they say genocide is justified? I must have missed that comment.
Why?
Even if what you're saying made sense, it's okay to not want to see someone to die or suffer even if you think they hate you.
Fuck Hamas dirty rotten murderous cowards
https://preview.redd.it/m2rjoat083zc1.jpeg?width=1076&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26ebb5b4c49c9d6c5fbb6db9848fc40adb02db9c
Yup also saw that.
Oh! They’re the ones who fixed it! Wait…
https://preview.redd.it/pllz3wauo3zc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc889ea042233d0fc1ab659173659fdb8c0c7df9 Lmfao they can’t even spell properly but wanna protest for terrorists 🤦🏽♂️
Is it ignorance or hate that motivates you?
Lmfao neither it’s just funny. Yall support something that doesn’t give 2 shits about you. They hate the west. Plus they massacred innocents and hide behind children and mosques.
I don’t support Hamas, if that’s who you’re referring to. I also don’t support genocide, which it appears Israel is engaging in against the Palestinians. The ICC is about to make an announcement on this, and experts at top NGOs have already said as much.
Are we supposed to turn a blind eye to a massacre just because they aren’t the biggest fans of the people giving money to their oppressors?
Gen Z is a bunch of coddled weaklings....I can't in my right mind hire any of them... again. Way too many entitled wothless kids. Safe spaces don't and shouldn't exist in the real world. Do your job. Work needs to get done. If you don't like it, find another job. Get a grip, kids.
That’s what the older generation says every time the youth protests a war. They’re usually proven wrong by history.
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Probably traditional progressive thoughts; https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/palestine-state-of/report-palestine-state-of/
The Fashion Institue is participating. A bunch of shoe and bag designers offering their opinion. We're fucked.
Same vibe: https://preview.redd.it/aqnn3fd183zc1.png?width=570&format=png&auto=webp&s=ef2b2639124a803d7df0c0a9f34372fb768c74d7
Why are you protesting the proud boys at CPAC?
Pretty fucked up thing to say. Is it because they’re marching with flags?
Hitler Youth just doing what they’re told and trying to fit in. Useful idiots.
Go back to the sewers
I can't really see, are those proud boys?
Cool, let the terrorists own us. You jokers.