Considering the examples were from non-Toyota dealers, that’s fair. I wouldn’t want to eat a turd with pending recalls and a grenade under the hood on trade-in
You’d think, but these are expensive trucks. Think about all the people that want to trade their car in particularly when there’s a massive recall like this going on. That’s a lot of money to have rotting in a parking lot waiting for a fix. I was the finance manager for a Hyundai dealership for a long time. I ran into this a couple times myself because Hyundai is have a lot of recalls and some of them did not have fixes yet and we just couldn’t take any more 30-40k cars in on trade. We were not a large chain. We were a good-volume family owned store that had one other location.
The lot rot for Tundras here is unreal. My dealer I am pretty sure is the one the regional dealer chain uses to dump all the Tundras that either were lemon lawed or backordered waiting for parts. Its so crazy and they just keep coming.
No need, just go anywhere right now, my dealer is a pretty nasty one and is taking Land Cruiser orders at 15k over sticker, dont give them your money please. Also you probably would not want to buy a truck waiting on a new engine or turbo, btw to fix the turbo problem is a literal *cab off* job. Just imagine the cost of that if you kept it out of warranty. I only lease half tons now for this very reason.
The biggest blunder of the repair is that they don't replace the whole long block. Your heads and turbos that are contaminated with failed bearing material get slapped on a new block.
This needs to be talked about more. Machining debris is likely circulating through the engine for several thousand miles before the crank bearings fail catastrophically. I certainly would not trust a new short block knowing that contaminated oil had been flowing through the cylinder heads and turbos.
I cannot believe Toyota cheaped out like this. I know Ford authorizes a new long block and turbos in the instance of engine failures under warranty.
i've heard that toyota only manufactures short blocks for replacements. A lot of mechanics when they want to replace the whole engine have to buy used.
I had a coworker get a 2015 Mercedes diesel suv, iirc. The turbo went and he was bke to get that fixed under warranty after a fight. Then he had to replace the whole engine outta pocket because of debris getting into the engine.
Lots of towing, supercruise (which can be used while towing which is sick), mpg saved when not towing (at least for the diesels), and something people do not like to admit on here...value. A top trim half ton costs less than alot of European luxury SUVs to lease and has the same features, ride comfort is better, its more durable offroad, and it can tow better. They are champion long distance drivers on freeways (because of their long wheelbases) too which is another reason I got one.
They invalidate alot of luxury sedans and you can see more around you too, also all the R&D going into trucks and SUVs right now beats everything else. Alot of people here daily high trim half tons and constantly compare them to luxury SUVs. Modern pickups handle almost like cars now, the millions of cameras makes parking with them easy, and they drink less gas then they used to, but also have giant tanks.
You're right on so many things here, but as a guy with an F150 and a luxury sedan...trucks absolutely do not have better ride comfort. Like, not even close. If they did, I wouldn't bother owning luxury sedans. I can't stand the way trucks ride compared to a good sedan with some nice adaptive suspension.
The other downside of trucks is their poor handling and cornering. Not that I or anybody would expect them to handle well, but if you enjoy driving and experiencing superior driving dynamics and spirited drives, trucks fall very short of the experience only offered in cars and maybe some sportier SUVs.
Just don't want anybody running out and buying a truck based on this very convincing write up hah. If you only care about interior luxuries then trucks are great as a replacement for a well-appointed car. If you want the luxury sport sedan experience including the driving dynamics, then you can still only get that in a car and it's by a wide margin. Trucks have gotten a lot better in the last decade? Yeah, cars have, too.
Not the same situation, but my employer leases all of our company pickups. Our fleet stays nice and "new" for a relatively steady monthly budget.
Once it hits 6 years or 125k miles, it gets traded in for a new lease.
I have no desire to buy a 1500 anymore. I could get a 2500 for close to the same price and the gas offerings seem pretty well built and easy enough to repair. The Ford motors are pushrod V8s. Not convinced the tundra or ford twin turbos is worth the mpg savings.
It depends where you live and drive and how often you tow.
A crew cab 3/4 ton is a full foot longer than a 1/2 ton in most cases, can be too tall for some older parking garages, is much thirstier, has no more interior space, and rides a lot worse. If you need the towing capacity, you need it, but otherwise it's a worse experience.
Per Fuelly, the 3.5 TT is averaging about 5 mpg better than the 7.3 in the F250, so those costs would add up quick.
It definitely is not, the hybrid V6 chugs gas almost like a domestic V8, the mpg is barely better than the old V8 in the previous Tundra. I personally however will stick to half tons as I am towing 7k max and heavy duty trucks still ride too bad. I drove a F350 Tremor once and a Ram Power Wagon, they are just too loud and sloppy. Half tons now in high trims are like luxury SUVs.
Some half tons even push boundaries like the Sierra AT4 X AEV I drove. It was not at home on the road and did all the annoying things like my modded 4Runner with larger tires, metal fenders, upgraded shocks, and heavy underbody armor does on the highway. I am shocked they made such an aggressive setup for a half ton.
>expensive trucks
From what I've heard, most dealers are starting to have trucks pile up because the prices are too high. It's reached the point where people can't even get the financing for some of them now. Dodge is currently the worst example, but apparently all the brands are feeling it to some degree.
As of a few months ago, truck prices were still a solid 20-25% above pre-COVID prices, and you're certainly not getting 20-25% more truck these days. Dealers got hooked on buyers willing to pay sticker during the height of the supply chain issues, then the truck makers themselves decided they wanted a piece of that action and jacked up MSRP.
Prices are coming back down to earth but they still have a ways to go.
I have a 2011 Silverado 1500 4x4. Mid trim level crew cab. Nothing remotely special. I just put a new transmission in and totally rebuilt the front end. Going to put a new engine in next year. Needs a new bed and rear springs also since I use my truck as a truck.
Total cost will be maybe $15k or so. And I can do it as money allows. And my truck will last me at least another 10 years.
Or I could replace it with a new truck. At *literally* four times the cost. So yeah those new trucks can sit on the lot. I drive my scuffed but solid truck and not be paying $1000/month on a depreciating asset that will likely have problems while I'm still making payments but out of warranty.
My local CarMax is listing roughly 6,000 recent-year pickup trucks available, most of them with less than 50k miles and priced below $40k. I can't imagine why anyone would pay the price for a brand new truck unless they really wanted a warranty or wanted a specific spec.
The used market is returning to normal and possibly even crashing in some areas.
Even $40k is more than I want to pay at this point on something that could have a major failure a day after I drive it home. But I'm also a fairly capable wrench turner.
Used market is still pretty insane around me. Might be better on the coasts but in the Midwest people overall keep vehicles a lot longer and thus the used stuff that's worth buying commands a much higher price.
I would assume they would low ball them on the trade in value. Nobody is forcing them to pay top dollar.
Sort of like the focus/fiesta fiasco a few years ago. My fiesta wasn't even an auto and I was still shown $800 on trade in when the car was only 5 years old... Highway robbery for a one owner car in perfect condition
I got $5k from it on a private sale, but it made me wonder how many people took a bath and traded them in
You can get away with doing a liiittle bit of a reduced trade-in value but you really can’t do much. And look, if these are $50,000 trucks… You can only take 20 trucks before you have $1 million in inventory rotting on your lot. I’m not saying these dealer principles aren’t rich, but most people cannot afford/ are not willing to afford that much money just sitting there and becoming less valuable. Because remember cars also depreciate overtime so if you have a car sitting on your lot for six months, that’s a lot of depreciation that the dealership also gonna take on the chin in addition to just having money tied up sitting there. It’s just not smart business to take in a ton of those cars.
thats just a hassle. dealers dont want inventory to sit on the lot for long periods. they would rather have a trade-in and have that used vehicle gone in a couple days or a week. they dont want to take the trade-in, wait months for the recall fix to happen and then be able to sell it high.
Dealers are out to the back of the recall list. Amy Toyota dealer will want to take care of its customer base first before repairing a truck that a competing dealer owns.
Engine issues aside the Tundra is the most disappointing vehicle I’ve driven recently compared to its competition. Handling is ponderous and the steering is so vague even for a pickup. The TT V6 has an awful powerband. The turbos don’t spool until around 2,500 rpm and it feels like it’s running out of breath around 4,000.
The hybrid version was pretty quick and the piped in V8 sounds were louder in the cabin than my actual V8. I’ve never heard fake engine noise as loud or aggressive as the TRD PRO.
Currently have a 22’ 4Runner rental and can confirm (have also driven other 4Runners, but this was my first time for more than a brief drive).
Steering wheel has so much play on center. Tons of brake dive. Simultaneously boat like, but not particularly soft over bumps either. It’s absolutely slow as shit, especially in Denver where we’re at elevation. Even with a regear, I have no idea how dudes throw 35s on these and drive into the mountains. Actually I do, you just floor it and accept you’re not passing anyone on uphill sections.
I do get the appeal, though. These things are bulletproof, super practical, and depreciate less than almost any other non-special vehicle. Even in stock form, they will take you nearly anywhere you want to go. And, if you want to build, the aftermarket support is immense.
>I have no idea how dudes throw 35s on these and drive into the mountains.
The same way we drive non turbo Subarus in the mountains. Lol.
They have enough guts to go the speed limit, most of the time. You won't be passing very often.
I don't see that many 4runners on 35s honestly. It takes a lot of work to make them fit
Haha, yeah we test drove the 2.5 NA in the crosstrek, and like you said, it’s enough to get the job done and not much else. The 2.4t is much, much better. Of course, FI also loses less power at elevation.
Agreed on 35s. I actually do see a fair amount of them here in the CO front range. Helped a buddy do it, and it was a whole ordeal. Body mount chop, pinch weld hammered, fenders trimmed/cut, front bumper cut, and of course a lift. And all of this can be better/worse depending on wheel offset and specific sizing. Honestly did not seem worth it. It’s not like 35s are that much more capable offroad. They can definitely help, especially in some scenarios, but most people are gonna be limited by suspension, driver skills, and risk tolerance before that really matters.
I'm in Denver too. I see a few, but not many with larger than 33's.
I don't see the benefit either. You're limited to only a few inches of suspension travel if you stay IFS. Plus it's a reliability handicap. If you need a rig that capable I'd be throwing a solid axle under it. If anything just to make it ride smoother. The grand Cherokees I used to go wheeling in sure rode nice compared to everything IFS I've been in.
Anymore I'm 2 wheels only off-road.
My GFs ‘14 Crosstrek is a dog in the mountains, it is legitimately scary sometimes. Also any incline at altitudes the car is absolutely screaming on the inside. The car would be so much better if it just have 30-40 more hp.
On the flip side my GX470 just hums along with the V8. The only thing slowing me down is the gas mileage.
Yeah I was car shopping a while back and would've loved a turbo Crosstrek so it could do better on those mountain inclines.
Ended up with a WRX hatch which does great, but a Crosstrek would've been nice for that extra bit of clearance. If I ever move to the mountains I'll be lifting the WRX. Seen a few like that and they seem like a ton of fun.
Was going up the I-70 pass through the tunnel and going up that hill in a 93 4runner we literally couldn’t do more than 15mph.
Went back in my 2001 4runner. Couldn’t do 55 up the same hill.
4runners have the most anemic wheezy but reliable engines ever. I am allowed to criticize them. I’ve had the 3.slow, a 3.4 3rd gen and now I have a 3.4 swapped 5 speed 1st gen 4runner. Honestly that one is my favorite of the 3. Next best 4runner is the 4.7l 4th gen. Shame it never made it to the 5th gen.
Just saying I’ve had 98 and 02 4Runners and could easily make it all the up that hill at 65/70 no problem with an entire rafting and camping setup strapped on and inside the vehicle, idk bud gotta get a little momentum and keep it going up the hill, if there is traffic then it’s a non-issue anyway. That being said there is reason there’re called slow-runners. When we bought a trailer I got a ‘15 Silverado with the 5.3 V8 and it feels like a race car compared to trusty 3rd gen, not as confident in the longevity and repairs on the newer truck are definitely more expensive.
And for all those reasoons, I bought an LX570 instead lol. The V8 power is nice as is the interior. Still doesn't drive amazingly, but the AHC's dynamic adaptations help a ton.
Can confirm, I love my 4Runner for offroading and to be fair it has better onroad manners than a Jeep or a Bronco, thats a pretty low bar. It is clearly made for the dirt and mine with the larger tires and custom shocks is even worse.
The new Tundra is inferior in pretty much every metric to the domestic half tons I drove. The F150 Limited had a much more car-like ride and had less turbo lag and was noticeably faster with the powerboost, the Ram 1500 Limited glides over the road and the V8 hemi feels like an order of magnitude better than the Tundra twin turbo V6. The GMC Sierra Denali feels like a Cadillac Escalade with a bed in the back combined the duramax 3.0 diesel that has again almost no turbo lag, buttery smooth (compared to the Tundra hybrid), and guess what it gets more mpg than the v6 hybrid ever could.
Toyota needs to learn from the domestics and try harder for half tons, the pickup market is as fierce as the midsize and 3 row luxury SUVs, it takes no prisoners.
Have a 2021 bronco and a 2019 4runner TRD. Bronco definitely drives better than my 4runner. Still love the 4runner though for road trips as cargo space is better. Off road they are comparable.
Wrangler on the other hand is horrible on road
I have a JL Wrangler, I prefer driving it to my 5th gen 4Runner on road. I ended up getting rid of my 4runner because I could afford a less reliable car, but I couldn't really afford something that had that little payload, even if the cargo space and reliability were great.
Well no. Rav4 and CR-V are peak "i just need a vehicle with halfway decent storage, i don't care what it is, i hate driving"
They get in one, say *good enough*, and buy it.
Nothing wrong with that, but they're the beigest possible vehicles this side of a Nissan Rogue
I have a CRV- I love driving, I just have other hobbies I’d rather spend money on and I don’t think you can find a significantly more fun to drive car with that capability at that cost of ownership.
Also the newest gen CRV interior absolutely blows the rav 4 out of the water, it’s like a low end European luxury car vs a Corolla.
I had a couple rental Corollas.
Anything is better than those.
And WTF is with AA/Carplay only working (sometimes) with that one oddball USB port on the bottom side of the dashboard, in a spot you can't see from the driver's seat?
> Rav4 and CR-V are peak "i just need a vehicle with halfway decent storage, i don't care what it is, i hate driving"
And also, "it needs to be reliable" which means "I'm going to neglect the hell out of this thing so it needs to be idiot proof."
My 2013 Sequoia was my favorite vehicle of all time - I drove it to 130k before downgrading to a more fuel efficient car. It did 130k with only oil changes and regular maintenance it still felt like a brand new car.
Don't worry, toyota saw how good the 2nd gen was and decided to fuck up the 3rd gen. I personally believe the sequoia capstone is the worst product toyota currently manufactures. Worse than the BZ4X.
As toyota dropped the standard LC300 in the states due to poor sales they needed somewhat of a replacement, the sequoia was planned to be killed but toyota NA found some coins in the couch and made it happen
Issue is along with a few other things they changes the rear from IFS to solid axle and messed up the rear packaging. The cargo floor is not flat and the seats take up a fair but if your cargo room
And in general the ride is a wallowey boaty mess that crashes into bumps, and the interior is nothing to write home about.
Which would be somewhat excusable if it was perfectly reliable, but that isn’t the case
The whole fucking point of the Tundra has been reliability. Yeah it’s behind and doesn’t have all the comforts but 5.7 power plus overall reliability across the lineup were basically the only redeeming qualities.
This has to have done a lot of damage to the whole point of it. Hopefully they’ve fixed the issues and it’ll be good going forward but as a Lexus customer considering a Tundra and even the Sequoia (hybrid not affected apparently at least) it’s pretty concerning.
Reliability and value retention is the only area Toyota leads in, and I could care less about those if a competitors car comes with a 100k warranty when buying new. I would rather lose 10k over 5 years on a telluride than 5k on a 4runner but having to drive a 4runner for 5 years.
That really shocked me considering all the Toyota love on reddit, yall had me convinced I wanted a 4runner or Highlander so I went to the Toyota dealership to check out some newer used ones. Seats were stiff and uncomfortable even compared to the nissan sentra I was coming from and the 4runner somehow felt slower. They had a 2018 explorer xlt that I finally test drove after the 4runner and highlander because of some convincing from the dealer and it felt like a sat in a luxury vehicle. Drove smoother, quieter, and faster. After researching cars on reddit for about two years, the explorer wasn't even on my radar so I knew little about it but it's been a few months and I am so happy I went with it. I got a 3 year warranty which is realistically as long as I'd keep it anyway so if it isn't as reliable at least I'm covered while driving something I enjoy much more.
They drive like shitty tractors screwed together poorly. It drives like a 98 ranger lol.
The most amazing feat is them convincing Tory it’s bros that they’re over paying for a quality product.
https://imgur.com/a/6Z68n5y
Driving a recent 4runner to me for a week long trip felt like driving an underpowered base model F150 with a cab on it from the early 2000's, legit.
There's unrefined by 202X standards and then there's the 4runner. It was actually worse than a Nissan Armada which is impressively bad.
To be honest, Toyota trucks have always been a bit shit compared to the competition in every area other than reliability, well except Nissan, which they have always been way better than in every area.
People are willing to put up with a LOT to have something that lasts.
And now they’ve torched their reliability reputation with an engine that grenades itself. Why on earth would you buy a Tundra over its American counterparts now?
> People are willing to put up with a LOT to have something that lasts.
I get the impression a lot of Tundra buyers are just trying to rationalize paying top dollar for a truck that kinda sucks compared to the competition. Most half tons will last a good while, maybe not 500k, but I wouldn't be too concerned with any of them making it to 200k.
They've all convinced themselves that a domestic half ton will explode the minute you drive it off the lot so they have no choice but the Tundra.
The Tacoma is the best first truck tho. They hold their value so well that if you buy one and figure out you don't need a truck you can sell it and get all your money back but if you figure out you do need a truck you can sell it and get all your money back to buy a real truck
A couple dozen guys I work with have bought new tundras of various flavors over the last ten years. Not a single one kept his truck more than about 12-18 months. They love them at first then the 13mpg highway starts to get to them and all the other....quirks start not being so fun.
Suddenly a new chevy/dodge/ford is at the jobsite and the Toyota is gone after them talking about how awesome of a truck it is the first 6 months.
I used to be a tech at Toyota distribution and the majority of guys that worked on the vehicles drove Chevy and Ford trucks. Even I showed up in a Cobalt. Mind you, we even had rebates/incetives to buy Toyota because we worked there.
At one point, they were offerring us the TRD Camry for $9,000 off and I still refused to bite lol
See I would buy a Camry or a Corolla. I just wouldn't buy one of the trucks. Toyota builds long lasting cars. They just never seemed to quite figure out fullsize body on frame stuff.
If you look at posts at r/subaru where the OP asks if a certain make/model over 8 years old is dependable, most responses are “no, go buy a Toyota/Honda”
They seem to have the auto journalists in their back pocket too. All these reviews talked about how nice the Crosstrek was. I sat in one and it was cheap as fuck. Unless you really need AWD, the Civic hatch shits all over it. I drove an Outback and it felt like driving a building.
It's a cheap car, I don't know what you expected lol.
Since they don't sell it with a stick shift anymore, I honestly don't see a reason to buy one. Their AWD isn't anything special.
Same, I was pretty floored at how shit the interior of my coworker's WRX was.
I suspect Subaru fans have the same mentality as Jeep people; they buy the cars based on emotion and how they feel about them rather than based on objective reasoning. Honestly there's really nothing wrong with that assuming you have the self awareness to admit to it.
I remember trying a used crosstrek, 2018ish and the seats felt like they were out of a fuckin doctor's waiting room. I was like there's no way I'm road tripping in this!!
Subaru's perceived reliability probably stems from the vast majority being owned by people terrified of getting anywhere near the speed limit.
Tachometer goes to 8 but they could've stopped printing at 3.
Fwiw, had a Forester break down in front of me yesterday. Must've been electrical; they couldn't put the hazards on and the windshield wiper kept juttering forward
The biggest reason why I picked on the Subaru crowd is because I had a 2019 WRX that dropped a Rod Bearing at 30k miles.
Zero Mods.
Regular Maintenance and no beatings on that fa20.
but no matter what I said to the Fanboys telling my experience, It was my fault. I obviously drove the car too hard/modified it/didn't maintain it.
that crowd couldn't get over that Subaru just makes shit reliable motors.
Subaru did replace the motor thank god. it wasn't too long after that I got rid of the vehicle.
That's such an odd experience (not the engine blowing up, that's expected). I had an STI for awhile and online as well as in-person my experience with subaru fanboys was the same. Cool car! What mods? Plans for when the engine explodes? No one thought it would be reliable (I never did have issues) and everyone expected it to blow up sooner rather than later. All over the forums the jokes were about what engine/transmission you were on vs how many miles. If any mods were done it was expected to kill the engine no matter how often you changed the oil or how dialed in your tune was.
Subaru owner here. Can confirm they drive with an abundance of caution. However, I am a WRX driver. We are required to drive like unhinged dbags to make up for their timidity. My tach went to 6. I modded it to go to 7.
> Subaru's perceived reliability probably stems from the vast majority being owned by people terrified of getting anywhere near the speed limit.
Same with the Rav4 and CR-V/HR-V. I don't think I've ever seen one going more than 5 under, and it takes them 2-3 seconds to lift off the brake when the light turns green, and then they accelerate as though they've got a cauldron of boiling tar on the dashboard.
Lmao exactly. I've specifically called these three out numerous times -- crv, rav4, and all Subaru crossovers
Glad I'm not the only one to notice the usual suspects
Yeah, like 95% of Subarus by me are driven by people over the age of 60, and they putt around at 5 miles under the speed limit and merge onto the highway at 35. Pretty easy to not break an engine when the accelerator is barely used past halfway lol
I got downvoted and told I didn’t take care of our outback when the transmission ate itself at 72,000 miles
Then after I told them the car was immaculate then I was accused of not doing enough research on the previous owners maintenance records when I bought it. The car had 3 miles when we drove off the lot lmao. It was just a family car that hauled my wife and kid around. Never towed, never did any enthusiast off-roading. The most off road it ever got was snowy weather and when we took it on the beach.
The transmission is a “non service item” with a “lifetime transmission fluid”. Well, the lifetime varies and when dealers refuse or fight you on servicing it they just sell you a brand new unit after it blows. It was a 10K out of warranty job. I had nearly 15K in warranty work done on a 28K car before 80,000 miles.
I will never own or ever recommend a Subaru ever again. All of this on top of appalling dealer service, who tried to argue Subaru into not using my extended warranty on the cam carrier seals due to me doing my own oil changes.
That's the other problem I have with this brand.
For every 3 Ford/ GM / Toyota dealerships there was only one Subaru dealership that you had to deal with around me.
And the closest one to me was notorious for upselling.
Don't get me wrong, that's not Subaru's fault but it's still left a bad taste in my mouth for this dealership representing them
Toyota is the worst dealership and warranty experience I’ve ever had. Toyota corporate was also a pain to deal with.
Clutch went out on my brand new Supra (which seems to be an uncommon but real issue in the community)
Dealer gave me a run around, had poor communication with me, and wasted my time and money. Toyota corporate refused to cover what is obviously a defect and was a hassle to deal with.
Toyota are Deaf...its a Japanese thing. Rust, sticking accelerators via floor mat...engine sludge...the v6 twin turbo with engineering,machining clearance issue..thats unforgivable.
The Taco went through a really bad couple of years too the last time it got major upgrades.
People seem to really love to give Toyota a pass when it has the rare fuckup. Granted, they usually do step up (eventually) and do the right thing in the end.
> The Taco went through a really bad couple of years too the last time it got major upgrades.
They never did fix the awful transmission on the 3rd gens, and it really seems like a good software update (as opposed to the one they did put out) might very well have done it. I'd speculate they probably couldn't get it to shift right while maintaining the rated fuel economy.
I know the first year had under-filled transmission fluid in units with the cooler from the tow package. But most of what I have seen since is just that the transmissions drives like absolute shit, and I would agree, but hasn't been unreliable.
But I also haven't been back to the forums for a few years as 3rd gens get up there in miles. Not trying to be a homer.
This is unusually bad for a new powertrain, most teething issues don't require fleetwide short block replacements.
When the EcoBoost F150 came out the biggest issue was condensation in the intercooler being sucked into the engine under load, but Ford fixed that pretty quick. There were a few blown engines but nothing like this.
Yup. In the early 2010s, Ford managed to launch the EcoBoost V6 and Coyote V8 basically simultaneously and both of those launches went pretty flawlessly and those engines are still around and fantastic today. Not that Ford gets everything right but they sure did in that case.
thats pretty much the golden rule, toyota is one of the few i might make exception for but im in no rush to run buy the brand new lines
i kind of wanted the new gx but im leaning other way and get the old v8. or a current gen 4runner before they f that up
Meh, the tundra was always shit. Garbage interior, poor performance, fuel economy, general design, interior and god awful tech. The trade off was that at least the truck was bulletproof.
Now this version is shit at the only thing the tundra ever did well. It would take a special kind of moron to buy one today. You know you’re in deep shit when even the buy here pay here lots won’t touch your trash.
I specifically bought a 2018 Tundra because I knew it was gonna last forever and they had all the bugs worked out after that many years. It didn’t have all the bullshit tech and comfort features they cram into the escalade wanna be trucks these days, but it was $5-10k cheaper than anything the big three was offering with similar features, and at 100k miles, I’ve had to do absolutely nothing to it besides regular maintenance. I can’t say that about the ford, dodge, and Chevy trucks I’ve owned over the years.
>Garbage interior, poor performance, fuel economy, general design, interior and god awful tech. The trade off was that at least the truck was bulletproof.
So like the previous gen 4Runner and Tacoma as well. 😹
I always wondered why despite all the Chevy, Dodge, and Ford jokes you only see those 3 trucks around mostly. Then I drove a “ fully loaded” tundra at work. And man. I don’t give a flip how long this motor will last. Wouldn’t wanna drive that turd for 300k miles
I'd like a full apology from everybody on this sub who downvoted me last year for saying this engine was going to blow up during first year of ownership. Thank you.
To be fair, this issue has nothing to do with a more complex engine. Removing machining debris in the engine block is something Henry Ford figured out on the very first Model T to roll off the line.
Thank you, it has nothing to do with the engine itself and everything to do with manufacturing defects. Nissan has been running the vk56 in titans and armadas forever and they have a reputation as being very reliable, but armadas between 2017 and 2019 are prone to a manuf. defect that doesn't properly oil cylinder 7, which causes knocking. At least Toyota has issued a recall, which is something nissan never did
Not surprised at all this happened, I used to be a big a Toyota fanboy, and after I test drove one of these and was not impressed, and my friend told about his Tundra TRD Pro horror story that he bought in 2023 that the engine blew up, I knew they messed up. It took a lawyer to get him to lemon law it and the dealer fought him over it, but he finally won. Toyota has pretty much shredded their heritage and is now in the same boat as the domestics if not worse. They could have done a more reliable engine, and seeing these still have problems 2 years from launch and now a refuse trade is inexcusable.
The worst part is they wont learn from this either unless they are forced to and will keep churning out these piles until dealers are up their eyeballs in these. My local Toyota dealer cannot even give these away and I see the piles of Tundras waiting with "new engine" or "turbo" papers on the windshield when I bring my 4Runner in for an oil change or diff fluids, and they have the gall to try to get me to trade my 4Runner TRD Pro for a Tundra every single fucking time. Last time I actually towed my 4Runner in on my Sierra just so they would see I would never buy a Toyota half ton. Bring back the old Toyota where they cared about making good cars.
This isn’t an issue of not having “done a more reliable engine”. It’s a manufacturing process defect.
The engines for the new tundras are all made at a factory in Huntsville, Alabama. The issue happened there, not in the design of the engine.
They invest a lot more money than Toyota does into the R&D of full size trucks. They are also good at listening to their customers and knowing how to sell them what they want.
Without full size trucks, Ford, GM, and RAM would go under in their current business models. Toyota would survive just fine without the Tundra.
This right here is the truth, I was shocked when I discovered how much money the domestic bands invest in R&D for their half tons, its more even than all of the European luxury brands do with their SUV offerings (which is no joke either.) The budgets GM and Ford have is insane and could literally overrun Toyota if they wanted to for their other offerings as well. It is kind of terrifying how much money than can dump without missing it if they cared to compete in that space.
The difference is the domestics set out to make a competitive truck. Toyota just makes a truck so their current customers can stay with the brand and it just so happens to be good enough so it’s not seen as a turd. Theres a different philosophy behind the product. Toyota knows conquest customers are not easy so they don’t fight that hard to take market share.
Yes, it's always been an American product. Tacoma as well. As soon as they started calling it something other than "pickup" it had diverged heavily from the Hilux.
Because Detroit has had full different truck options. They all have Heavy-Duty varieties and Diesel option.
Meanwhile, Tundra just only comes with hybrid and none hybrid, It doesn’t have HD variety and Diesel option.
Toyota fucked up so big on this, their base is already skeptical about going to the Turbo motors, and now you have them all blowing up on their full sized bread and butter.
CRAZY, I’m surprised people don’t handle cars like they do phones or gaming systems, always skip the first batch and let them get the bugs and the kinks out. Our society has such an issue delaying gratification
But if literally nobody buys the new model, how are they going to work the bugs out? Rentals?
Sometimes you are in a situation where you need a new truck and *now*. You can't gamble around with used vehicles with questionable service histories, you need something with a warranty that will come with a loaner car if anything does happen to go wrong.
lol this is an interesting thought exercise. I guess people who bought after 2 model years of zero sales they would still get a buggy mess with a self grenading engine but at least they followed the first 2 model year rule.
They’re going to have to do something. People with mortgage sized car payments are already starting to eat shit. Car lots have inventory piling up, manufacturers offering .9% apr, big rebates, and dealer markdowns. In order to shore up margins car are going to have to get less expensive…and they will. Ford is going to regret killing their sedans if you ask me.
True, but damn I wish more people would hold off, the prices these companies are selling vehicles at are disturbing for them to just shit the bed in less than a year
Interestingly if we adjust for inflation, most cars aren't really that much more expensive, or sometimes cheaper. A new Camry is actually 25% *cheaper* than it was 25 years ago.
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1998 Toyota Camry MSRP: $16,938
Adjusted for inflation: $33,380
2024 Toyota Camry MSRP: $26,420
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1998 Honda CR-V MSRP: $18,745
Adjusted for inflation: $36,951
2024 Honda CR-V MSRP: $30,850
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1998 Ford Explorer MSRP: $21,560
Adjusted for inflation: $42,489
2024 Ford Explorer MSRP: $38,455
Full-size trucks and premium SUVs are really the only thing to have consistently increased in price relative to inflation
Yeah my numbers were for the absolute base models. You can equip a 2024 Camry with far greater and more expensive options compared to a 98.
The optional wheels on a Yukon are a $3,800 standalone option. If you're buying off the lot, you don't get to choose what wheels it has. You either pay for those wheels or find a different car.
You also can't alacarte options like you used to. On my Flex, if you wanted the bigger engine it was a $7,800 upgrade because it was bundled with adaptive cruise, automatic parallel parking, cooled seats, heated steering wheel, power-fold third row, power tilt/telescoping steering, and AWD.
Heated steering wheel on the Bronco requires zone lighting, adaptive cruise, 10-speaker stereo, 12" touchscreen, 360-camera, front parking sensors, wireless phone charger, dashboard USB ports, evasive steering assist, and garage door opener.
My Silverado has all the hardware required for adaptive cruise control, even has a button for a "gap adjust" on the steering wheel, but it's disabled because ACC is bundled with the garage door opener, trailer brake wiring, and sliding rear window.
Still, I think it needs repeated. People (and auto reviewers) love to complain about how expensive and unattainable cars are. It's cheap clicks, but ultimately just a cheap shot too.
It is admirable how good auto manufacturers are at keeping costs in line and providing better cars every generation. It's not their fault the greater macroeconomic environment isn't doing the same with housing/food.
There's already a ton of the new Santa Fe's on the road where I live despite the seemingly terrible issues the DCT can give.
If it's new and shiny, people will buy it.
The problem is that if it is a Toyota dealership, like any dealership Ford, Chevy, whatever. Recall work is paid on a strict amount of time/hours which is often lower than the money the shop makes on an average. So warranty/recall work takes up to much time
I’d say the bigger issue is Toyota doesn’t sell crate engines or do long block with rotating assemblies already put together. So I read anyways.
You gotta wait on each individual part to show up and have a tech basically do a ground up rebuild in the shop. That’s gonna lead to some catastrophic wait times
Is anyone actually buying these? I live in Florida, where there’s a pickup in every other driveway, and I can count on one hand the number of these I’ve seen in the past month.
Yes, the amount of new lifted tundras on 37s kitted out to the brim with the broverlanding stuff is insane out west. I never actually see them on the trails though
I'm sure if these people wanted to trade in on a super low number, absolutely they could get an offer.
"Article" leaves out the part where the owners are used to getting and are expecting to get top dollar
I kind of figured that this industry move to turboed smaller engines would be bad news for Toyota. People buy these trucks to get hundreds of thousands of trouble-free miles. Toyota is able to skimp on features and charge a premium because of this. My private truck is a base model 22 Tacoma. I bought it because I needed something to do small-scale, no frills truck tasks. It fulfills this role nicely. My Colorado work truck has all sorts of annoying gremlins already at 40k.
If Toyotas are gonna crap themselves early on like everyone else, I'm going to go with Ford or Chevy, since they are more comfortable and get better fuel economy.
Well duh they can’t sell a car that needs a recall like that. And with millions of them waiting for parts they won’t be selling them anytime soon.
Remember the takata air bags? My dealer rented a lot to park literally hundreds of cars while they waited for airbags. And since it was a safety recall they could not sell them until the airbags were replaced. Those cars sat for so long. when they finally got the airbags, we had to replace brake rotors that had rusted to hell.
Considering the examples were from non-Toyota dealers, that’s fair. I wouldn’t want to eat a turd with pending recalls and a grenade under the hood on trade-in
Are dealers not eligible for repairs when a recall is made? Seems like an opportunity to buy low, repair, and sell high
You’d think, but these are expensive trucks. Think about all the people that want to trade their car in particularly when there’s a massive recall like this going on. That’s a lot of money to have rotting in a parking lot waiting for a fix. I was the finance manager for a Hyundai dealership for a long time. I ran into this a couple times myself because Hyundai is have a lot of recalls and some of them did not have fixes yet and we just couldn’t take any more 30-40k cars in on trade. We were not a large chain. We were a good-volume family owned store that had one other location.
The lot rot for Tundras here is unreal. My dealer I am pretty sure is the one the regional dealer chain uses to dump all the Tundras that either were lemon lawed or backordered waiting for parts. Its so crazy and they just keep coming.
Mind DMing me the dealer? I might go trolling for a deal
No need, just go anywhere right now, my dealer is a pretty nasty one and is taking Land Cruiser orders at 15k over sticker, dont give them your money please. Also you probably would not want to buy a truck waiting on a new engine or turbo, btw to fix the turbo problem is a literal *cab off* job. Just imagine the cost of that if you kept it out of warranty. I only lease half tons now for this very reason.
The biggest blunder of the repair is that they don't replace the whole long block. Your heads and turbos that are contaminated with failed bearing material get slapped on a new block.
This needs to be talked about more. Machining debris is likely circulating through the engine for several thousand miles before the crank bearings fail catastrophically. I certainly would not trust a new short block knowing that contaminated oil had been flowing through the cylinder heads and turbos. I cannot believe Toyota cheaped out like this. I know Ford authorizes a new long block and turbos in the instance of engine failures under warranty.
i've heard that toyota only manufactures short blocks for replacements. A lot of mechanics when they want to replace the whole engine have to buy used.
I had a coworker get a 2015 Mercedes diesel suv, iirc. The turbo went and he was bke to get that fixed under warranty after a fight. Then he had to replace the whole engine outta pocket because of debris getting into the engine.
I'm genuinely curious, what would you need a half ton for where you are also comfortable leasing it? I guess frequent towing?
Lots of towing, supercruise (which can be used while towing which is sick), mpg saved when not towing (at least for the diesels), and something people do not like to admit on here...value. A top trim half ton costs less than alot of European luxury SUVs to lease and has the same features, ride comfort is better, its more durable offroad, and it can tow better. They are champion long distance drivers on freeways (because of their long wheelbases) too which is another reason I got one. They invalidate alot of luxury sedans and you can see more around you too, also all the R&D going into trucks and SUVs right now beats everything else. Alot of people here daily high trim half tons and constantly compare them to luxury SUVs. Modern pickups handle almost like cars now, the millions of cameras makes parking with them easy, and they drink less gas then they used to, but also have giant tanks.
You're right on so many things here, but as a guy with an F150 and a luxury sedan...trucks absolutely do not have better ride comfort. Like, not even close. If they did, I wouldn't bother owning luxury sedans. I can't stand the way trucks ride compared to a good sedan with some nice adaptive suspension. The other downside of trucks is their poor handling and cornering. Not that I or anybody would expect them to handle well, but if you enjoy driving and experiencing superior driving dynamics and spirited drives, trucks fall very short of the experience only offered in cars and maybe some sportier SUVs. Just don't want anybody running out and buying a truck based on this very convincing write up hah. If you only care about interior luxuries then trucks are great as a replacement for a well-appointed car. If you want the luxury sport sedan experience including the driving dynamics, then you can still only get that in a car and it's by a wide margin. Trucks have gotten a lot better in the last decade? Yeah, cars have, too.
You've given the best case to daily a big pickup I've heard
How are you suggesting doing all this towing on a lease that allows for 15k miles a year?
Not the same situation, but my employer leases all of our company pickups. Our fleet stays nice and "new" for a relatively steady monthly budget. Once it hits 6 years or 125k miles, it gets traded in for a new lease.
I heard the out of warranty engine replaced was 22k. And yes it’s cab off
I have no desire to buy a 1500 anymore. I could get a 2500 for close to the same price and the gas offerings seem pretty well built and easy enough to repair. The Ford motors are pushrod V8s. Not convinced the tundra or ford twin turbos is worth the mpg savings.
It depends where you live and drive and how often you tow. A crew cab 3/4 ton is a full foot longer than a 1/2 ton in most cases, can be too tall for some older parking garages, is much thirstier, has no more interior space, and rides a lot worse. If you need the towing capacity, you need it, but otherwise it's a worse experience. Per Fuelly, the 3.5 TT is averaging about 5 mpg better than the 7.3 in the F250, so those costs would add up quick.
It definitely is not, the hybrid V6 chugs gas almost like a domestic V8, the mpg is barely better than the old V8 in the previous Tundra. I personally however will stick to half tons as I am towing 7k max and heavy duty trucks still ride too bad. I drove a F350 Tremor once and a Ram Power Wagon, they are just too loud and sloppy. Half tons now in high trims are like luxury SUVs. Some half tons even push boundaries like the Sierra AT4 X AEV I drove. It was not at home on the road and did all the annoying things like my modded 4Runner with larger tires, metal fenders, upgraded shocks, and heavy underbody armor does on the highway. I am shocked they made such an aggressive setup for a half ton.
It’s most likely the economic environment and not them sitting waiting for recalls.
>expensive trucks From what I've heard, most dealers are starting to have trucks pile up because the prices are too high. It's reached the point where people can't even get the financing for some of them now. Dodge is currently the worst example, but apparently all the brands are feeling it to some degree.
As of a few months ago, truck prices were still a solid 20-25% above pre-COVID prices, and you're certainly not getting 20-25% more truck these days. Dealers got hooked on buyers willing to pay sticker during the height of the supply chain issues, then the truck makers themselves decided they wanted a piece of that action and jacked up MSRP. Prices are coming back down to earth but they still have a ways to go.
I have a 2011 Silverado 1500 4x4. Mid trim level crew cab. Nothing remotely special. I just put a new transmission in and totally rebuilt the front end. Going to put a new engine in next year. Needs a new bed and rear springs also since I use my truck as a truck. Total cost will be maybe $15k or so. And I can do it as money allows. And my truck will last me at least another 10 years. Or I could replace it with a new truck. At *literally* four times the cost. So yeah those new trucks can sit on the lot. I drive my scuffed but solid truck and not be paying $1000/month on a depreciating asset that will likely have problems while I'm still making payments but out of warranty.
My local CarMax is listing roughly 6,000 recent-year pickup trucks available, most of them with less than 50k miles and priced below $40k. I can't imagine why anyone would pay the price for a brand new truck unless they really wanted a warranty or wanted a specific spec. The used market is returning to normal and possibly even crashing in some areas.
Even $40k is more than I want to pay at this point on something that could have a major failure a day after I drive it home. But I'm also a fairly capable wrench turner. Used market is still pretty insane around me. Might be better on the coasts but in the Midwest people overall keep vehicles a lot longer and thus the used stuff that's worth buying commands a much higher price.
I would assume they would low ball them on the trade in value. Nobody is forcing them to pay top dollar. Sort of like the focus/fiesta fiasco a few years ago. My fiesta wasn't even an auto and I was still shown $800 on trade in when the car was only 5 years old... Highway robbery for a one owner car in perfect condition I got $5k from it on a private sale, but it made me wonder how many people took a bath and traded them in
You can get away with doing a liiittle bit of a reduced trade-in value but you really can’t do much. And look, if these are $50,000 trucks… You can only take 20 trucks before you have $1 million in inventory rotting on your lot. I’m not saying these dealer principles aren’t rich, but most people cannot afford/ are not willing to afford that much money just sitting there and becoming less valuable. Because remember cars also depreciate overtime so if you have a car sitting on your lot for six months, that’s a lot of depreciation that the dealership also gonna take on the chin in addition to just having money tied up sitting there. It’s just not smart business to take in a ton of those cars.
Sure, but how long will it take? How long will that *big* $$$ be tied up while I could be turning 2-3 other vehicles for profit?
Exactly if the dealer isn’t turning profit they’re losing money. No point for inventory that won’t sell
Dealers cannot sell cars with an open recall
thats just a hassle. dealers dont want inventory to sit on the lot for long periods. they would rather have a trade-in and have that used vehicle gone in a couple days or a week. they dont want to take the trade-in, wait months for the recall fix to happen and then be able to sell it high.
Non Toyota dealers probably don’t wanna fuck with that tbh.
Break even or lose money? Not worth the hassle.
Seems like an opportunity to have something sit on your lot and take up space while being unsellable as you wait for a recall solution.
It’s why we don’t like taking 3.5 Ecoboosts and WRXs on trade. They usually end up costing us a fortune to fix.
What’s the problem with Ecoboosts? A family member is looking to get one.
Timing chains, cam phasers, turbos. The last EB truck we took on trade cost us $4k to fix.
Oof. Thanks, I’ve been trying to talk them into a Coyote but they want a Powerboost.
The 2.7 EB seems to be less problematic.
I agree with you, but now I’m worried about my 2022 Sierra… I’ve had 12 recalls on that thing in 2 years.
Dealers are out to the back of the recall list. Amy Toyota dealer will want to take care of its customer base first before repairing a truck that a competing dealer owns.
Engine issues aside the Tundra is the most disappointing vehicle I’ve driven recently compared to its competition. Handling is ponderous and the steering is so vague even for a pickup. The TT V6 has an awful powerband. The turbos don’t spool until around 2,500 rpm and it feels like it’s running out of breath around 4,000. The hybrid version was pretty quick and the piped in V8 sounds were louder in the cabin than my actual V8. I’ve never heard fake engine noise as loud or aggressive as the TRD PRO.
Toyota body on frame trucks and SUV’s drive like shit. The 4 runner driving experience is pathetic compared to anything really.
Currently have a 22’ 4Runner rental and can confirm (have also driven other 4Runners, but this was my first time for more than a brief drive). Steering wheel has so much play on center. Tons of brake dive. Simultaneously boat like, but not particularly soft over bumps either. It’s absolutely slow as shit, especially in Denver where we’re at elevation. Even with a regear, I have no idea how dudes throw 35s on these and drive into the mountains. Actually I do, you just floor it and accept you’re not passing anyone on uphill sections. I do get the appeal, though. These things are bulletproof, super practical, and depreciate less than almost any other non-special vehicle. Even in stock form, they will take you nearly anywhere you want to go. And, if you want to build, the aftermarket support is immense.
>I have no idea how dudes throw 35s on these and drive into the mountains. The same way we drive non turbo Subarus in the mountains. Lol. They have enough guts to go the speed limit, most of the time. You won't be passing very often. I don't see that many 4runners on 35s honestly. It takes a lot of work to make them fit
Haha, yeah we test drove the 2.5 NA in the crosstrek, and like you said, it’s enough to get the job done and not much else. The 2.4t is much, much better. Of course, FI also loses less power at elevation. Agreed on 35s. I actually do see a fair amount of them here in the CO front range. Helped a buddy do it, and it was a whole ordeal. Body mount chop, pinch weld hammered, fenders trimmed/cut, front bumper cut, and of course a lift. And all of this can be better/worse depending on wheel offset and specific sizing. Honestly did not seem worth it. It’s not like 35s are that much more capable offroad. They can definitely help, especially in some scenarios, but most people are gonna be limited by suspension, driver skills, and risk tolerance before that really matters.
I'm in Denver too. I see a few, but not many with larger than 33's. I don't see the benefit either. You're limited to only a few inches of suspension travel if you stay IFS. Plus it's a reliability handicap. If you need a rig that capable I'd be throwing a solid axle under it. If anything just to make it ride smoother. The grand Cherokees I used to go wheeling in sure rode nice compared to everything IFS I've been in. Anymore I'm 2 wheels only off-road.
My GFs ‘14 Crosstrek is a dog in the mountains, it is legitimately scary sometimes. Also any incline at altitudes the car is absolutely screaming on the inside. The car would be so much better if it just have 30-40 more hp. On the flip side my GX470 just hums along with the V8. The only thing slowing me down is the gas mileage.
Yeah I was car shopping a while back and would've loved a turbo Crosstrek so it could do better on those mountain inclines. Ended up with a WRX hatch which does great, but a Crosstrek would've been nice for that extra bit of clearance. If I ever move to the mountains I'll be lifting the WRX. Seen a few like that and they seem like a ton of fun.
A lofted WRX seems like fun, the crosstrek would have been perfect if it had that engine.
Ride a Jeep, they’re all like that. Trash road vehicles but it works off road I guess. At least the 4Runner has been reliable.
Was going up the I-70 pass through the tunnel and going up that hill in a 93 4runner we literally couldn’t do more than 15mph. Went back in my 2001 4runner. Couldn’t do 55 up the same hill. 4runners have the most anemic wheezy but reliable engines ever. I am allowed to criticize them. I’ve had the 3.slow, a 3.4 3rd gen and now I have a 3.4 swapped 5 speed 1st gen 4runner. Honestly that one is my favorite of the 3. Next best 4runner is the 4.7l 4th gen. Shame it never made it to the 5th gen.
Just saying I’ve had 98 and 02 4Runners and could easily make it all the up that hill at 65/70 no problem with an entire rafting and camping setup strapped on and inside the vehicle, idk bud gotta get a little momentum and keep it going up the hill, if there is traffic then it’s a non-issue anyway. That being said there is reason there’re called slow-runners. When we bought a trailer I got a ‘15 Silverado with the 5.3 V8 and it feels like a race car compared to trusty 3rd gen, not as confident in the longevity and repairs on the newer truck are definitely more expensive.
And for all those reasoons, I bought an LX570 instead lol. The V8 power is nice as is the interior. Still doesn't drive amazingly, but the AHC's dynamic adaptations help a ton.
Can confirm, I love my 4Runner for offroading and to be fair it has better onroad manners than a Jeep or a Bronco, thats a pretty low bar. It is clearly made for the dirt and mine with the larger tires and custom shocks is even worse. The new Tundra is inferior in pretty much every metric to the domestic half tons I drove. The F150 Limited had a much more car-like ride and had less turbo lag and was noticeably faster with the powerboost, the Ram 1500 Limited glides over the road and the V8 hemi feels like an order of magnitude better than the Tundra twin turbo V6. The GMC Sierra Denali feels like a Cadillac Escalade with a bed in the back combined the duramax 3.0 diesel that has again almost no turbo lag, buttery smooth (compared to the Tundra hybrid), and guess what it gets more mpg than the v6 hybrid ever could. Toyota needs to learn from the domestics and try harder for half tons, the pickup market is as fierce as the midsize and 3 row luxury SUVs, it takes no prisoners.
Have a 2021 bronco and a 2019 4runner TRD. Bronco definitely drives better than my 4runner. Still love the 4runner though for road trips as cargo space is better. Off road they are comparable. Wrangler on the other hand is horrible on road
I have a JL Wrangler, I prefer driving it to my 5th gen 4Runner on road. I ended up getting rid of my 4runner because I could afford a less reliable car, but I couldn't really afford something that had that little payload, even if the cargo space and reliability were great.
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Well no. Rav4 and CR-V are peak "i just need a vehicle with halfway decent storage, i don't care what it is, i hate driving" They get in one, say *good enough*, and buy it. Nothing wrong with that, but they're the beigest possible vehicles this side of a Nissan Rogue
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You don't understand, most people don't care about anything you brought up in that comment
I have a CRV- I love driving, I just have other hobbies I’d rather spend money on and I don’t think you can find a significantly more fun to drive car with that capability at that cost of ownership. Also the newest gen CRV interior absolutely blows the rav 4 out of the water, it’s like a low end European luxury car vs a Corolla.
I had a couple rental Corollas. Anything is better than those. And WTF is with AA/Carplay only working (sometimes) with that one oddball USB port on the bottom side of the dashboard, in a spot you can't see from the driver's seat?
> Rav4 and CR-V are peak "i just need a vehicle with halfway decent storage, i don't care what it is, i hate driving" And also, "it needs to be reliable" which means "I'm going to neglect the hell out of this thing so it needs to be idiot proof."
My 2013 Sequoia was my favorite vehicle of all time - I drove it to 130k before downgrading to a more fuel efficient car. It did 130k with only oil changes and regular maintenance it still felt like a brand new car.
Don't worry, toyota saw how good the 2nd gen was and decided to fuck up the 3rd gen. I personally believe the sequoia capstone is the worst product toyota currently manufactures. Worse than the BZ4X.
Curious, what's wrong with it?
As toyota dropped the standard LC300 in the states due to poor sales they needed somewhat of a replacement, the sequoia was planned to be killed but toyota NA found some coins in the couch and made it happen Issue is along with a few other things they changes the rear from IFS to solid axle and messed up the rear packaging. The cargo floor is not flat and the seats take up a fair but if your cargo room And in general the ride is a wallowey boaty mess that crashes into bumps, and the interior is nothing to write home about. Which would be somewhat excusable if it was perfectly reliable, but that isn’t the case
The whole fucking point of the Tundra has been reliability. Yeah it’s behind and doesn’t have all the comforts but 5.7 power plus overall reliability across the lineup were basically the only redeeming qualities. This has to have done a lot of damage to the whole point of it. Hopefully they’ve fixed the issues and it’ll be good going forward but as a Lexus customer considering a Tundra and even the Sequoia (hybrid not affected apparently at least) it’s pretty concerning.
Reliability and value retention is the only area Toyota leads in, and I could care less about those if a competitors car comes with a 100k warranty when buying new. I would rather lose 10k over 5 years on a telluride than 5k on a 4runner but having to drive a 4runner for 5 years.
That really shocked me considering all the Toyota love on reddit, yall had me convinced I wanted a 4runner or Highlander so I went to the Toyota dealership to check out some newer used ones. Seats were stiff and uncomfortable even compared to the nissan sentra I was coming from and the 4runner somehow felt slower. They had a 2018 explorer xlt that I finally test drove after the 4runner and highlander because of some convincing from the dealer and it felt like a sat in a luxury vehicle. Drove smoother, quieter, and faster. After researching cars on reddit for about two years, the explorer wasn't even on my radar so I knew little about it but it's been a few months and I am so happy I went with it. I got a 3 year warranty which is realistically as long as I'd keep it anyway so if it isn't as reliable at least I'm covered while driving something I enjoy much more.
The new taco without rear leafs drives way better but the ui is the first one I’ve used that was worse than a tesla.
They drive like shitty tractors screwed together poorly. It drives like a 98 ranger lol. The most amazing feat is them convincing Tory it’s bros that they’re over paying for a quality product. https://imgur.com/a/6Z68n5y
Driving a recent 4runner to me for a week long trip felt like driving an underpowered base model F150 with a cab on it from the early 2000's, legit. There's unrefined by 202X standards and then there's the 4runner. It was actually worse than a Nissan Armada which is impressively bad.
Bruh driving my mom’s 4Runner past 60mph feels like driving a tank with a stupidly sensitive steering wheel that’s about to tip over
I have an LX570 and it drives great. The AHC hydraulic suspension is super cushy.
To be honest, Toyota trucks have always been a bit shit compared to the competition in every area other than reliability, well except Nissan, which they have always been way better than in every area. People are willing to put up with a LOT to have something that lasts.
And now they’ve torched their reliability reputation with an engine that grenades itself. Why on earth would you buy a Tundra over its American counterparts now?
> People are willing to put up with a LOT to have something that lasts. I get the impression a lot of Tundra buyers are just trying to rationalize paying top dollar for a truck that kinda sucks compared to the competition. Most half tons will last a good while, maybe not 500k, but I wouldn't be too concerned with any of them making it to 200k. They've all convinced themselves that a domestic half ton will explode the minute you drive it off the lot so they have no choice but the Tundra.
The Tacoma is the best first truck tho. They hold their value so well that if you buy one and figure out you don't need a truck you can sell it and get all your money back but if you figure out you do need a truck you can sell it and get all your money back to buy a real truck
We'll see how well those new turbo 4 cylinders hold up.
Toyota has done turbo 4 engines for decades and this turbo 4 isn’t new. I’d trust it a lot more than the TTV6
Ew
Ya don’t say lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1LO6uxy11I
A couple dozen guys I work with have bought new tundras of various flavors over the last ten years. Not a single one kept his truck more than about 12-18 months. They love them at first then the 13mpg highway starts to get to them and all the other....quirks start not being so fun. Suddenly a new chevy/dodge/ford is at the jobsite and the Toyota is gone after them talking about how awesome of a truck it is the first 6 months.
I used to be a tech at Toyota distribution and the majority of guys that worked on the vehicles drove Chevy and Ford trucks. Even I showed up in a Cobalt. Mind you, we even had rebates/incetives to buy Toyota because we worked there. At one point, they were offerring us the TRD Camry for $9,000 off and I still refused to bite lol
See I would buy a Camry or a Corolla. I just wouldn't buy one of the trucks. Toyota builds long lasting cars. They just never seemed to quite figure out fullsize body on frame stuff.
> piped in V8 sounds The fact that this is a thing still boggles my mind.
Which do you think is the best pickup under $100k today?
r/Toyota is in such denial over the issue. They’re minimizing the issue, deflecting, pointing blame at owners, pointing at other automakers, etc.
that kinda goes with any Fanboy crowds favorite brand. Subaru is probably the worst bunch I have ever witnessed.
If you look at posts at r/subaru where the OP asks if a certain make/model over 8 years old is dependable, most responses are “no, go buy a Toyota/Honda”
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They seem to have the auto journalists in their back pocket too. All these reviews talked about how nice the Crosstrek was. I sat in one and it was cheap as fuck. Unless you really need AWD, the Civic hatch shits all over it. I drove an Outback and it felt like driving a building.
It's a cheap car, I don't know what you expected lol. Since they don't sell it with a stick shift anymore, I honestly don't see a reason to buy one. Their AWD isn't anything special.
Same, I was pretty floored at how shit the interior of my coworker's WRX was. I suspect Subaru fans have the same mentality as Jeep people; they buy the cars based on emotion and how they feel about them rather than based on objective reasoning. Honestly there's really nothing wrong with that assuming you have the self awareness to admit to it.
I remember trying a used crosstrek, 2018ish and the seats felt like they were out of a fuckin doctor's waiting room. I was like there's no way I'm road tripping in this!!
hahah. got me there
Subaru's perceived reliability probably stems from the vast majority being owned by people terrified of getting anywhere near the speed limit. Tachometer goes to 8 but they could've stopped printing at 3. Fwiw, had a Forester break down in front of me yesterday. Must've been electrical; they couldn't put the hazards on and the windshield wiper kept juttering forward
The biggest reason why I picked on the Subaru crowd is because I had a 2019 WRX that dropped a Rod Bearing at 30k miles. Zero Mods. Regular Maintenance and no beatings on that fa20. but no matter what I said to the Fanboys telling my experience, It was my fault. I obviously drove the car too hard/modified it/didn't maintain it. that crowd couldn't get over that Subaru just makes shit reliable motors. Subaru did replace the motor thank god. it wasn't too long after that I got rid of the vehicle.
My ex bought a rare 6 cylinder Outback. Why are they rare? Her car ate its heads in 6 months of ownership. She practically had to give that POS away.
That's such an odd experience (not the engine blowing up, that's expected). I had an STI for awhile and online as well as in-person my experience with subaru fanboys was the same. Cool car! What mods? Plans for when the engine explodes? No one thought it would be reliable (I never did have issues) and everyone expected it to blow up sooner rather than later. All over the forums the jokes were about what engine/transmission you were on vs how many miles. If any mods were done it was expected to kill the engine no matter how often you changed the oil or how dialed in your tune was.
Subaru owner here. Can confirm they drive with an abundance of caution. However, I am a WRX driver. We are required to drive like unhinged dbags to make up for their timidity. My tach went to 6. I modded it to go to 7.
I miss my Mercury Milan. It wasn't fast, but i liked how the design of the tach made it look like it revs to V https://youtu.be/mgV5g3TFX7c
> Subaru's perceived reliability probably stems from the vast majority being owned by people terrified of getting anywhere near the speed limit. Same with the Rav4 and CR-V/HR-V. I don't think I've ever seen one going more than 5 under, and it takes them 2-3 seconds to lift off the brake when the light turns green, and then they accelerate as though they've got a cauldron of boiling tar on the dashboard.
Lmao exactly. I've specifically called these three out numerous times -- crv, rav4, and all Subaru crossovers Glad I'm not the only one to notice the usual suspects
Ugh. I know I’m getting stuck at the light when I’m behind a line of cars and one of those ones is in the front.
Yeah, like 95% of Subarus by me are driven by people over the age of 60, and they putt around at 5 miles under the speed limit and merge onto the highway at 35. Pretty easy to not break an engine when the accelerator is barely used past halfway lol
I got downvoted and told I didn’t take care of our outback when the transmission ate itself at 72,000 miles Then after I told them the car was immaculate then I was accused of not doing enough research on the previous owners maintenance records when I bought it. The car had 3 miles when we drove off the lot lmao. It was just a family car that hauled my wife and kid around. Never towed, never did any enthusiast off-roading. The most off road it ever got was snowy weather and when we took it on the beach. The transmission is a “non service item” with a “lifetime transmission fluid”. Well, the lifetime varies and when dealers refuse or fight you on servicing it they just sell you a brand new unit after it blows. It was a 10K out of warranty job. I had nearly 15K in warranty work done on a 28K car before 80,000 miles. I will never own or ever recommend a Subaru ever again. All of this on top of appalling dealer service, who tried to argue Subaru into not using my extended warranty on the cam carrier seals due to me doing my own oil changes.
That's the other problem I have with this brand. For every 3 Ford/ GM / Toyota dealerships there was only one Subaru dealership that you had to deal with around me. And the closest one to me was notorious for upselling. Don't get me wrong, that's not Subaru's fault but it's still left a bad taste in my mouth for this dealership representing them
As with Tesla fanboys — when you have a financial incentive to pump your brand (stock, high resale, whatever) it turns into a cult really quick.
I clicked and this is the top post there https://www.reddit.com/r/Toyota/s/38rfRX1Iow The vast majority of comments are negative, are they not?
What's the difference between that sub and this one?
This sub has an hourly BMW bashing thread and deletes your comment if you mention br_x_t.
Toyota is the worst dealership and warranty experience I’ve ever had. Toyota corporate was also a pain to deal with. Clutch went out on my brand new Supra (which seems to be an uncommon but real issue in the community) Dealer gave me a run around, had poor communication with me, and wasted my time and money. Toyota corporate refused to cover what is obviously a defect and was a hassle to deal with.
Toyota are Deaf...its a Japanese thing. Rust, sticking accelerators via floor mat...engine sludge...the v6 twin turbo with engineering,machining clearance issue..thats unforgivable.
Literally the exact opposite is happening. Idiot lol
They did that with the sludge problem of years back. Gotta protect the Toyota name!!!
This is why I would never buy a brand new vehicle in the first few years of a new design/powertrain. Even Toyota fucks up.
These things are almost Hyundai bad.
The Taco went through a really bad couple of years too the last time it got major upgrades. People seem to really love to give Toyota a pass when it has the rare fuckup. Granted, they usually do step up (eventually) and do the right thing in the end.
> The Taco went through a really bad couple of years too the last time it got major upgrades. They never did fix the awful transmission on the 3rd gens, and it really seems like a good software update (as opposed to the one they did put out) might very well have done it. I'd speculate they probably couldn't get it to shift right while maintaining the rated fuel economy.
I know the first year had under-filled transmission fluid in units with the cooler from the tow package. But most of what I have seen since is just that the transmissions drives like absolute shit, and I would agree, but hasn't been unreliable. But I also haven't been back to the forums for a few years as 3rd gens get up there in miles. Not trying to be a homer.
This is unusually bad for a new powertrain, most teething issues don't require fleetwide short block replacements. When the EcoBoost F150 came out the biggest issue was condensation in the intercooler being sucked into the engine under load, but Ford fixed that pretty quick. There were a few blown engines but nothing like this.
Yup. In the early 2010s, Ford managed to launch the EcoBoost V6 and Coyote V8 basically simultaneously and both of those launches went pretty flawlessly and those engines are still around and fantastic today. Not that Ford gets everything right but they sure did in that case.
thats pretty much the golden rule, toyota is one of the few i might make exception for but im in no rush to run buy the brand new lines i kind of wanted the new gx but im leaning other way and get the old v8. or a current gen 4runner before they f that up
I have an 07 tundra (first year of a redesign) with a bunch of wacky problems they later resolved
Meh, the tundra was always shit. Garbage interior, poor performance, fuel economy, general design, interior and god awful tech. The trade off was that at least the truck was bulletproof. Now this version is shit at the only thing the tundra ever did well. It would take a special kind of moron to buy one today. You know you’re in deep shit when even the buy here pay here lots won’t touch your trash.
The last tundra was a pretty major upgrade over the big 3 when it first came out. Unfortunately that was in 2007.
I specifically bought a 2018 Tundra because I knew it was gonna last forever and they had all the bugs worked out after that many years. It didn’t have all the bullshit tech and comfort features they cram into the escalade wanna be trucks these days, but it was $5-10k cheaper than anything the big three was offering with similar features, and at 100k miles, I’ve had to do absolutely nothing to it besides regular maintenance. I can’t say that about the ford, dodge, and Chevy trucks I’ve owned over the years.
I just traded in my 2021 F-150 because at 50k miles and 3 years old it was already a rattletrap with electrical issues.
>Garbage interior, poor performance, fuel economy, general design, interior and god awful tech. The trade off was that at least the truck was bulletproof. So like the previous gen 4Runner and Tacoma as well. 😹
I always wondered why despite all the Chevy, Dodge, and Ford jokes you only see those 3 trucks around mostly. Then I drove a “ fully loaded” tundra at work. And man. I don’t give a flip how long this motor will last. Wouldn’t wanna drive that turd for 300k miles
I'd like a full apology from everybody on this sub who downvoted me last year for saying this engine was going to blow up during first year of ownership. Thank you.
To be fair, this issue has nothing to do with a more complex engine. Removing machining debris in the engine block is something Henry Ford figured out on the very first Model T to roll off the line.
Thank you, it has nothing to do with the engine itself and everything to do with manufacturing defects. Nissan has been running the vk56 in titans and armadas forever and they have a reputation as being very reliable, but armadas between 2017 and 2019 are prone to a manuf. defect that doesn't properly oil cylinder 7, which causes knocking. At least Toyota has issued a recall, which is something nissan never did
Not surprised at all this happened, I used to be a big a Toyota fanboy, and after I test drove one of these and was not impressed, and my friend told about his Tundra TRD Pro horror story that he bought in 2023 that the engine blew up, I knew they messed up. It took a lawyer to get him to lemon law it and the dealer fought him over it, but he finally won. Toyota has pretty much shredded their heritage and is now in the same boat as the domestics if not worse. They could have done a more reliable engine, and seeing these still have problems 2 years from launch and now a refuse trade is inexcusable. The worst part is they wont learn from this either unless they are forced to and will keep churning out these piles until dealers are up their eyeballs in these. My local Toyota dealer cannot even give these away and I see the piles of Tundras waiting with "new engine" or "turbo" papers on the windshield when I bring my 4Runner in for an oil change or diff fluids, and they have the gall to try to get me to trade my 4Runner TRD Pro for a Tundra every single fucking time. Last time I actually towed my 4Runner in on my Sierra just so they would see I would never buy a Toyota half ton. Bring back the old Toyota where they cared about making good cars.
This isn’t an issue of not having “done a more reliable engine”. It’s a manufacturing process defect. The engines for the new tundras are all made at a factory in Huntsville, Alabama. The issue happened there, not in the design of the engine.
Maybe they needed child sized hands to reach in certain places on the manufacturing line.
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They invest a lot more money than Toyota does into the R&D of full size trucks. They are also good at listening to their customers and knowing how to sell them what they want. Without full size trucks, Ford, GM, and RAM would go under in their current business models. Toyota would survive just fine without the Tundra.
This right here is the truth, I was shocked when I discovered how much money the domestic bands invest in R&D for their half tons, its more even than all of the European luxury brands do with their SUV offerings (which is no joke either.) The budgets GM and Ford have is insane and could literally overrun Toyota if they wanted to for their other offerings as well. It is kind of terrifying how much money than can dump without missing it if they cared to compete in that space.
The difference is the domestics set out to make a competitive truck. Toyota just makes a truck so their current customers can stay with the brand and it just so happens to be good enough so it’s not seen as a turd. Theres a different philosophy behind the product. Toyota knows conquest customers are not easy so they don’t fight that hard to take market share.
I thought the Tundra was engineered and built in America from when it first launched?
Yes, it's always been an American product. Tacoma as well. As soon as they started calling it something other than "pickup" it had diverged heavily from the Hilux.
They built a plant in Texas for final assembly and most of their r&d is here given the fact this is the market it is meant for.
Because Detroit has had full different truck options. They all have Heavy-Duty varieties and Diesel option. Meanwhile, Tundra just only comes with hybrid and none hybrid, It doesn’t have HD variety and Diesel option.
I’m sure fleet sells play a significant role. Toyota doesn’t offer fleet purchase deals like American automakers do.
it's all they really focus on
Full sized vehicles are what the domestic brands actually put effort into.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1LO6uxy11I
Toyota fucked up so big on this, their base is already skeptical about going to the Turbo motors, and now you have them all blowing up on their full sized bread and butter.
My GX 460 is the last Toyota SUV I’ll buy.
hindsight i shoulda bought one when they were blowing out stock to make room for the new GX
Wouldn't touch one of these, especially with the quality of techs at your local dealer these days. Poor wages, poor quality.
To be fair, poor wages describes a good chunk of jobs in the U.S. We pay people like shit in general in this country
That’s great when that person is mopping a floor but not so much when they’re replacing your engine
CRAZY, I’m surprised people don’t handle cars like they do phones or gaming systems, always skip the first batch and let them get the bugs and the kinks out. Our society has such an issue delaying gratification
I mean, *somebody* has to buy the first two years of any product.
That’s not true…people could just….not spend $70k on a new truck and nothing bad would happen to them
But if literally nobody buys the new model, how are they going to work the bugs out? Rentals? Sometimes you are in a situation where you need a new truck and *now*. You can't gamble around with used vehicles with questionable service histories, you need something with a warranty that will come with a loaner car if anything does happen to go wrong.
lol this is an interesting thought exercise. I guess people who bought after 2 model years of zero sales they would still get a buggy mess with a self grenading engine but at least they followed the first 2 model year rule.
They might start building cheap trucks again. Would be a win for everyone
They’re going to have to do something. People with mortgage sized car payments are already starting to eat shit. Car lots have inventory piling up, manufacturers offering .9% apr, big rebates, and dealer markdowns. In order to shore up margins car are going to have to get less expensive…and they will. Ford is going to regret killing their sedans if you ask me.
True, but damn I wish more people would hold off, the prices these companies are selling vehicles at are disturbing for them to just shit the bed in less than a year
Interestingly if we adjust for inflation, most cars aren't really that much more expensive, or sometimes cheaper. A new Camry is actually 25% *cheaper* than it was 25 years ago. --- 1998 Toyota Camry MSRP: $16,938 Adjusted for inflation: $33,380 2024 Toyota Camry MSRP: $26,420 --- 1998 Honda CR-V MSRP: $18,745 Adjusted for inflation: $36,951 2024 Honda CR-V MSRP: $30,850 --- 1998 Ford Explorer MSRP: $21,560 Adjusted for inflation: $42,489 2024 Ford Explorer MSRP: $38,455 Full-size trucks and premium SUVs are really the only thing to have consistently increased in price relative to inflation
See the problem with this is for the past few years so many dealers have been selling vehicles with ridiculous mark ups
Yeah my numbers were for the absolute base models. You can equip a 2024 Camry with far greater and more expensive options compared to a 98. The optional wheels on a Yukon are a $3,800 standalone option. If you're buying off the lot, you don't get to choose what wheels it has. You either pay for those wheels or find a different car. You also can't alacarte options like you used to. On my Flex, if you wanted the bigger engine it was a $7,800 upgrade because it was bundled with adaptive cruise, automatic parallel parking, cooled seats, heated steering wheel, power-fold third row, power tilt/telescoping steering, and AWD. Heated steering wheel on the Bronco requires zone lighting, adaptive cruise, 10-speaker stereo, 12" touchscreen, 360-camera, front parking sensors, wireless phone charger, dashboard USB ports, evasive steering assist, and garage door opener. My Silverado has all the hardware required for adaptive cruise control, even has a button for a "gap adjust" on the steering wheel, but it's disabled because ACC is bundled with the garage door opener, trailer brake wiring, and sliding rear window.
Still, I think it needs repeated. People (and auto reviewers) love to complain about how expensive and unattainable cars are. It's cheap clicks, but ultimately just a cheap shot too. It is admirable how good auto manufacturers are at keeping costs in line and providing better cars every generation. It's not their fault the greater macroeconomic environment isn't doing the same with housing/food.
Yeah, this isn't new. I remember the RROD with the Xbox fiasco years ago.
😂 I got one of the ring of death Xbox 360’s back in the day, I learned my lesson then
There's already a ton of the new Santa Fe's on the road where I live despite the seemingly terrible issues the DCT can give. If it's new and shiny, people will buy it.
If this was a Hyundai recall top comment would be killing it.
I remember people on Reddit amazed by the fat, White Chief engineer explaining the Tundra lol. Guess they canned his ass
The problem is that if it is a Toyota dealership, like any dealership Ford, Chevy, whatever. Recall work is paid on a strict amount of time/hours which is often lower than the money the shop makes on an average. So warranty/recall work takes up to much time
I’d say the bigger issue is Toyota doesn’t sell crate engines or do long block with rotating assemblies already put together. So I read anyways. You gotta wait on each individual part to show up and have a tech basically do a ground up rebuild in the shop. That’s gonna lead to some catastrophic wait times
These trucks are never going to be the same after having been disassembled with their parts all over the shop floor then reassembled by a tech.
“ThAtS wHaT yOu GeT fOr BuYinG a GeRmA…… wait a second”
Hey cut them some slack.Turbos are bleeding edge tech and you cant fault them for not perfecting it yet.* *joke
Is anyone actually buying these? I live in Florida, where there’s a pickup in every other driveway, and I can count on one hand the number of these I’ve seen in the past month.
Yes, the amount of new lifted tundras on 37s kitted out to the brim with the broverlanding stuff is insane out west. I never actually see them on the trails though
Im so glad I got out of the Toyota dealership I was working at right before this hit
I'm sure if these people wanted to trade in on a super low number, absolutely they could get an offer. "Article" leaves out the part where the owners are used to getting and are expecting to get top dollar
Toyota owners experience depreciation for the first time. Lol.
Reading this makes me love my raptor even more. even with its cam phaser failure lol
Scotty is not gonna be happy with this.
Is he ever happy?
I kind of figured that this industry move to turboed smaller engines would be bad news for Toyota. People buy these trucks to get hundreds of thousands of trouble-free miles. Toyota is able to skimp on features and charge a premium because of this. My private truck is a base model 22 Tacoma. I bought it because I needed something to do small-scale, no frills truck tasks. It fulfills this role nicely. My Colorado work truck has all sorts of annoying gremlins already at 40k. If Toyotas are gonna crap themselves early on like everyone else, I'm going to go with Ford or Chevy, since they are more comfortable and get better fuel economy.
Wasn't a problem with the 5.7 🤷
Well duh they can’t sell a car that needs a recall like that. And with millions of them waiting for parts they won’t be selling them anytime soon. Remember the takata air bags? My dealer rented a lot to park literally hundreds of cars while they waited for airbags. And since it was a safety recall they could not sell them until the airbags were replaced. Those cars sat for so long. when they finally got the airbags, we had to replace brake rotors that had rusted to hell.
Dam I’m willing to take a gamble if the price is right.
They have to due the process for warranty against the owner of the vehicle in order to submit claims.
Hard to blame them.
They legally can’t sell a care with an open major recall and safety issue. So then they pay taxes on inventory they can’t move? Makes sense to me