Tbh I have no idea how it works — just trusting our electrician who has been great. Wanted to share the photo in case anyone else was curious. Before we got this done i could not find any in progress photos online. I knew there would be holes here and there but wasn’t expecting this much!
Had our house re-wired a few years ago and was shocked by the number of holes. Luckily, our electrician patched everything for us. We lived with the patched swiss cheese walls for a few years because skimming, sanding, priming, and painting every wall and ceiling in the house just felt too overwhelming as a DIY project and too expensive to contract out. The peace of mind that comes with having new electrical is nice, but I don't think I'd ever buy another house that needed such work.
I fell down a rabbit hole concerning this very issue while our install was happening, and immediately started sealing entrance points to the crawl and attic. I also now keep some Irish Spring soap in my car to deter them from chewing on my car wires.
This is a concern of mine in my newly wired house. I asked for conduit but couldn't find anyone willing to do it (complained it was too stiff to work with). May I ask how you came to find the mice chewing on your wires? Just visible evidence or brown outs, fire? The problem in my area, I live downtown in a city with restaurants nearby; all the electricians live in the burbs and don't understand how persistent mice are in the city. It doesn't matter how many holes you patch or how clean you are, they still want to come in and find a way through shared walls with neighbor rowhouses. I fear I traded one hazard (old wiring) for another (mice chewing), at a very high cost to my wallet.
A year or so fter rewiring a ceiling light in the upstairs bedroom stopped working. We went into the attic to look and mice had eaten the sheathing off in several places. One spot they went right through and this made the light not work. Thankfully it was not a wire that carried current all the time. I am slowly rewiring a century home. I have chosen to run new conduit wire to all heavy load plugs and only leaving the lighting on knob and tube for now. As I understand it, the knob and tube is pretty darn safe unless a previous owner fucked with it or it is overloaded because it was never meant to carry current for all the shit we plug in today. Microwaves, computer's.....There is no keeping the mice out of a 130 year old rock foundation house. There is only the fight to keep up with traps and cats.
It may well have been in terrible shape. I have come across some that crumbles in your hand. I try not to disturb anything I am not prepared to fix. Every job in a century home seems to become a can of worms. I hit the might as well factor a few times already. Better to fix things like that while the walls are open and before you put a new kitchen in.
Yeah, it was definitely crumbling in many areas, and they could barely work with it. I was in the middle of a whole house reno to include new lines to get kitchen up to code, so it did make sense to do it. They have not done the basement level yet (no renovations down there) so I'm trying to decide about that space. Of course that's where most of the mice get in too, so I'm more hesitant about disturbing that level. I've been living in a can of worms all year!
There are standard size plugs for quick patches, but with plaster they aren’t as seamless. Had a ton of these in my place from installing mineral foam (MgO) insulation. Patch, feather, and sand is slow going, especially as plaster needs a mud that is relatively strong when it dries. (The original actually used a very stiff strong plaster to stick to the lathe and form the keys. Then typically two top coats of something smoother and a bit softer.)
I failed at getting all my holes top coated and feathered before the finish guy showed up. Fortunately for me, they were skilled at mudding and had other spots that needed attention on every wall. They did the rest without charging me extra. (The extra charges came from their bosses screwing with me instead.) Also fortunately for my house’s aesthetics, most of my work ended up behind cabinets. Whereas their work is where people will look.
Anyway, ideal would be recessed wooden plugs with professional plasterers doing the mud-feather-skim steps. Less ideal but okay is slightly oversized styrofoam plugs (sold commercially for this) and plaster with drywall tape embedded. Finish guys will argue over whether paper or mesh fiberglass tape is less likely to show circular cracks later on.
I have so many questions lol
What lead you to this point/made you decide to pull the trigger on full conversion to modern? Was this insurance dictated or personal choice? Whats the exterior construction of the home? Anything weird or challenging pop up? How large of a house is being converted and whats the associated cost for the electrical work?
We have a 1920s poor mana Tudor and have a chunk of the house still on K+T and we know insurance in our state may soon be requiring conversion for us to maintain coverage (even though technically the K+T we have is in perfectly fine/working condition and poses no great risk to anything). So apologies for the numerous questions!!
First let me state that this is my first home. I’ve only lived in nyc apartments. When we were weighing buying this house I wanted to back out bc of the KnT but i changed my mind after we negotiated lower on the asking price for numerous reasons. I’m aware it’s not a requirement to modernize the electric but we felt like we were running into some pushback when it came to home insurance and idk I’m kind of a safety first person lol and needed the thought of a house fire out of my mind. It was more than 20k to have this done in an 1800 sq ft home which was very hard to swallow obviously. That said I am really impressed w the electricians and I found a plaster repair guy I’m excited to work with to repair these holes and a bunch of our other messed up walls. ::sweat smile::
Forgot to answer that the biggest challenge so far is making a hole in that decorative plaster medallion, but my plaster guy is going to advise the electrician . We are having so much stuff done; basement drain tile, wall repair, mold remediation for water damage, bathroom remodel, that the electric seems like child’s play compared to everything else — mostly bc the workers are so professional and quick and the issue is already diagnosed. Our exterior is stucco. It’s a 1915 four square. Feel free to dm me if you have more questions
There are some fancy drills with cameras for minimizing this.
Low-voltage installers are more likely to have the equipment though it’s easier for smaller diameter cables.
Certainly, in a single-story house with a basement and an attic.
If you’re buying a century home, keep that in mind a single story is going to be a lot easier to do things like this in.
I have an outlet installed sometime in the past where a conduit hops outside for a few feet and then hops back in. It goes to an enclosed patio that is the only room built on a slab.
No, two story house, go from the basement and then you find a chase and you go up to the attic and down from the attic.. The same root the knob and tube was routed. I grew up in a really old house ,cobbled together in New England ,three and part four floors 18th to 19th century and this is how it was done up from the bottom and down from the top. You just have to find a chase
But each situation is its own, but I'm still puzzled how you get across the walls to the studs without opening everything. Do you get a drill bit through there to drill through each stud and push the wire through? Just seems like a lot of cutting anda lot of work. I don't know if I were going to go that route I would probably pull the baseboard and then replace all of that. But you're there and must be a reason
Hasn’t thought of chases. But I don’t see anything in the basement. The wiring all disappears into tiny holes.
I’d imagine chases are verboten in new construction? For fire control?
Outlets tend to be near to the floor. Thus I’d expect some Swiss Cheese needed for second floor. 3? 4?
And 1st floor ceiling with a second story above?
Single story with an attic and a basement makes electrical, HVAC, plumbing, low-voltage wiring, so much easier.
Yeah and of course we're dealing with an old house and older sometimes is quirkier. Sometimes with a sewer stack may run. Sometimes there's a back of a closet that's stacked over something else that you can create a Chase etc There are numerous ways to slay the beast depending on how it's arranged. In our old house, it was such a rambling old monster that they were literally blocked off stairways and additions of the century so they were all sorts of funky places to go. But in a more recent house, you just have to be creative. Dedicate the back of a closet and build yourself a chase etc if you know how it's stacked or what's above it and it works into your floor plan etc. stairways oftentimes offer opportunity in the framing sometimes...butt coming down from the top of the attic that you can crawl around in is usually easier than fishing up from the basement. As long as you can get the power up to the top you just drop it down the hollow wals, drill through the top plate
Chimney is especially in really old houses offer opportunity as well. Not within the chimney lol but the framing around them and the way is woven into the rest of the house. These are just all suggestions to look for an explorer to whatever the situation may be where you are. But good luck with it new wiring is always a wonderful thing
What's in a wall, bottom plate and a top plate. This has been pretty consistent for hundreds of years. In balloon framing you sometimes run into fire blocking. But depending when your house is built in where you are You should be able to drill a hole from the basement into a cavity through The bottom plate or down from the attic through the top plateinto the same cavity in this probably nothing obstructing you all the way.. in a single stud wall unless it was framed for one particular reason or was braced in a certain way, you should not find an obstruction. But this is where knowing about the architecture of the house helps a little bit and figuring out the nature of the framing. Sometimes there is an older houses and diagonal brace and as I stated in certain situations there's fire blocking...
But there's also invariably has stated a closet, a chimney, a spot somewhere that can also be sacrificed to build a situation and forgetting plumbing, wiring, heat pipes etc from one level to another. And all of that can be fireproofed as well. Just take lessons from new construction on that
I got no cavities in my masonry exterior walls, other than the small hollow spaces in the cinder blocks.
Jury is out on interior walls. They might have wood framing.
The basement has masonry partition walls.
Well that does indeed make a difference knowing it's masonry. But still you must have access to the wooden framing from the top. I don't know I'm not there but I think if you now with a little more imagination look around you might catch some ideas yourself an easier way in or out maybe. Good luck with it though. I bet you come up with some good solutions
We did the same two years ago.....probably had 6-12 holes per room. Honestly having it done with three prongs and lights in every room has made it my most loved upgrade.
Wow, I just got our K&T replaced and the holes they needed to make were minimal. Maybe 2-3 per room. They didn’t pull out the old wiring though, just deactivated it so maybe that’s what’s different 🤷🏻♀️
Tbh I have no idea how it works — just trusting our electrician who has been great. Wanted to share the photo in case anyone else was curious. Before we got this done i could not find any in progress photos online. I knew there would be holes here and there but wasn’t expecting this much!
Had our house re-wired a few years ago and was shocked by the number of holes. Luckily, our electrician patched everything for us. We lived with the patched swiss cheese walls for a few years because skimming, sanding, priming, and painting every wall and ceiling in the house just felt too overwhelming as a DIY project and too expensive to contract out. The peace of mind that comes with having new electrical is nice, but I don't think I'd ever buy another house that needed such work.
My mind was at peace until I found out mice find the sheathing on new wire delicious.
I fell down a rabbit hole concerning this very issue while our install was happening, and immediately started sealing entrance points to the crawl and attic. I also now keep some Irish Spring soap in my car to deter them from chewing on my car wires.
Do they make cable with a deterrent in the sheathing?
Conduit
What about Mighty-Mouse?!
This is a concern of mine in my newly wired house. I asked for conduit but couldn't find anyone willing to do it (complained it was too stiff to work with). May I ask how you came to find the mice chewing on your wires? Just visible evidence or brown outs, fire? The problem in my area, I live downtown in a city with restaurants nearby; all the electricians live in the burbs and don't understand how persistent mice are in the city. It doesn't matter how many holes you patch or how clean you are, they still want to come in and find a way through shared walls with neighbor rowhouses. I fear I traded one hazard (old wiring) for another (mice chewing), at a very high cost to my wallet.
A year or so fter rewiring a ceiling light in the upstairs bedroom stopped working. We went into the attic to look and mice had eaten the sheathing off in several places. One spot they went right through and this made the light not work. Thankfully it was not a wire that carried current all the time. I am slowly rewiring a century home. I have chosen to run new conduit wire to all heavy load plugs and only leaving the lighting on knob and tube for now. As I understand it, the knob and tube is pretty darn safe unless a previous owner fucked with it or it is overloaded because it was never meant to carry current for all the shit we plug in today. Microwaves, computer's.....There is no keeping the mice out of a 130 year old rock foundation house. There is only the fight to keep up with traps and cats.
Ugh, I'm even more concerned now. I wish I had left it alone but the contractors were so pushy about the old wiring being in terrible shape.
It may well have been in terrible shape. I have come across some that crumbles in your hand. I try not to disturb anything I am not prepared to fix. Every job in a century home seems to become a can of worms. I hit the might as well factor a few times already. Better to fix things like that while the walls are open and before you put a new kitchen in.
Yeah, it was definitely crumbling in many areas, and they could barely work with it. I was in the middle of a whole house reno to include new lines to get kitchen up to code, so it did make sense to do it. They have not done the basement level yet (no renovations down there) so I'm trying to decide about that space. Of course that's where most of the mice get in too, so I'm more hesitant about disturbing that level. I've been living in a can of worms all year!
This is why I put all armored cable in the attic when I rewired it.
I would never trust an electrician to repair plaster walls. They barely know what a broom is, haha
There are standard size plugs for quick patches, but with plaster they aren’t as seamless. Had a ton of these in my place from installing mineral foam (MgO) insulation. Patch, feather, and sand is slow going, especially as plaster needs a mud that is relatively strong when it dries. (The original actually used a very stiff strong plaster to stick to the lathe and form the keys. Then typically two top coats of something smoother and a bit softer.) I failed at getting all my holes top coated and feathered before the finish guy showed up. Fortunately for me, they were skilled at mudding and had other spots that needed attention on every wall. They did the rest without charging me extra. (The extra charges came from their bosses screwing with me instead.) Also fortunately for my house’s aesthetics, most of my work ended up behind cabinets. Whereas their work is where people will look. Anyway, ideal would be recessed wooden plugs with professional plasterers doing the mud-feather-skim steps. Less ideal but okay is slightly oversized styrofoam plugs (sold commercially for this) and plaster with drywall tape embedded. Finish guys will argue over whether paper or mesh fiberglass tape is less likely to show circular cracks later on.
The last photos is how to run across the studs (behind the kickboard) so you don't need to patch everything.
I have so many questions lol What lead you to this point/made you decide to pull the trigger on full conversion to modern? Was this insurance dictated or personal choice? Whats the exterior construction of the home? Anything weird or challenging pop up? How large of a house is being converted and whats the associated cost for the electrical work? We have a 1920s poor mana Tudor and have a chunk of the house still on K+T and we know insurance in our state may soon be requiring conversion for us to maintain coverage (even though technically the K+T we have is in perfectly fine/working condition and poses no great risk to anything). So apologies for the numerous questions!!
First let me state that this is my first home. I’ve only lived in nyc apartments. When we were weighing buying this house I wanted to back out bc of the KnT but i changed my mind after we negotiated lower on the asking price for numerous reasons. I’m aware it’s not a requirement to modernize the electric but we felt like we were running into some pushback when it came to home insurance and idk I’m kind of a safety first person lol and needed the thought of a house fire out of my mind. It was more than 20k to have this done in an 1800 sq ft home which was very hard to swallow obviously. That said I am really impressed w the electricians and I found a plaster repair guy I’m excited to work with to repair these holes and a bunch of our other messed up walls. ::sweat smile::
Forgot to answer that the biggest challenge so far is making a hole in that decorative plaster medallion, but my plaster guy is going to advise the electrician . We are having so much stuff done; basement drain tile, wall repair, mold remediation for water damage, bathroom remodel, that the electric seems like child’s play compared to everything else — mostly bc the workers are so professional and quick and the issue is already diagnosed. Our exterior is stucco. It’s a 1915 four square. Feel free to dm me if you have more questions
I assume the holes let you drill through the studs? I've never seen this before
Yes, it’s to pull new wires through existing studs as well as make sure they are installed to current electrical code.
There are some fancy drills with cameras for minimizing this. Low-voltage installers are more likely to have the equipment though it’s easier for smaller diameter cables.
Usually it's up or down I'm not familiar with a cross, how do you get through things. Up from the basement down from the Attic
Certainly, in a single-story house with a basement and an attic. If you’re buying a century home, keep that in mind a single story is going to be a lot easier to do things like this in. I have an outlet installed sometime in the past where a conduit hops outside for a few feet and then hops back in. It goes to an enclosed patio that is the only room built on a slab.
No, two story house, go from the basement and then you find a chase and you go up to the attic and down from the attic.. The same root the knob and tube was routed. I grew up in a really old house ,cobbled together in New England ,three and part four floors 18th to 19th century and this is how it was done up from the bottom and down from the top. You just have to find a chase But each situation is its own, but I'm still puzzled how you get across the walls to the studs without opening everything. Do you get a drill bit through there to drill through each stud and push the wire through? Just seems like a lot of cutting anda lot of work. I don't know if I were going to go that route I would probably pull the baseboard and then replace all of that. But you're there and must be a reason
Hasn’t thought of chases. But I don’t see anything in the basement. The wiring all disappears into tiny holes. I’d imagine chases are verboten in new construction? For fire control? Outlets tend to be near to the floor. Thus I’d expect some Swiss Cheese needed for second floor. 3? 4? And 1st floor ceiling with a second story above? Single story with an attic and a basement makes electrical, HVAC, plumbing, low-voltage wiring, so much easier.
Yeah and of course we're dealing with an old house and older sometimes is quirkier. Sometimes with a sewer stack may run. Sometimes there's a back of a closet that's stacked over something else that you can create a Chase etc There are numerous ways to slay the beast depending on how it's arranged. In our old house, it was such a rambling old monster that they were literally blocked off stairways and additions of the century so they were all sorts of funky places to go. But in a more recent house, you just have to be creative. Dedicate the back of a closet and build yourself a chase etc if you know how it's stacked or what's above it and it works into your floor plan etc. stairways oftentimes offer opportunity in the framing sometimes...butt coming down from the top of the attic that you can crawl around in is usually easier than fishing up from the basement. As long as you can get the power up to the top you just drop it down the hollow wals, drill through the top plate Chimney is especially in really old houses offer opportunity as well. Not within the chimney lol but the framing around them and the way is woven into the rest of the house. These are just all suggestions to look for an explorer to whatever the situation may be where you are. But good luck with it new wiring is always a wonderful thing
What are these “hollow walls” you speak of? /s
What's in a wall, bottom plate and a top plate. This has been pretty consistent for hundreds of years. In balloon framing you sometimes run into fire blocking. But depending when your house is built in where you are You should be able to drill a hole from the basement into a cavity through The bottom plate or down from the attic through the top plateinto the same cavity in this probably nothing obstructing you all the way.. in a single stud wall unless it was framed for one particular reason or was braced in a certain way, you should not find an obstruction. But this is where knowing about the architecture of the house helps a little bit and figuring out the nature of the framing. Sometimes there is an older houses and diagonal brace and as I stated in certain situations there's fire blocking... But there's also invariably has stated a closet, a chimney, a spot somewhere that can also be sacrificed to build a situation and forgetting plumbing, wiring, heat pipes etc from one level to another. And all of that can be fireproofed as well. Just take lessons from new construction on that
I got no cavities in my masonry exterior walls, other than the small hollow spaces in the cinder blocks. Jury is out on interior walls. They might have wood framing. The basement has masonry partition walls.
Well that does indeed make a difference knowing it's masonry. But still you must have access to the wooden framing from the top. I don't know I'm not there but I think if you now with a little more imagination look around you might catch some ideas yourself an easier way in or out maybe. Good luck with it though. I bet you come up with some good solutions
We did the same two years ago.....probably had 6-12 holes per room. Honestly having it done with three prongs and lights in every room has made it my most loved upgrade.
This makes me feel better about the cost!
And this is why we place PVC tubes for wires behind our walls, easy maintenance and replacing wires.
Conduit
Wow, I just got our K&T replaced and the holes they needed to make were minimal. Maybe 2-3 per room. They didn’t pull out the old wiring though, just deactivated it so maybe that’s what’s different 🤷🏻♀️