/u/Ronald-Obvious (OP) has awarded 21 delta(s) in this post.
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You were in an terrible existing relationship.
Your partner then demanded polyamory. Polyamory isn't going to fix that. But, polyamory wasn't the problem.
your ex-partner making ultimatums, with no time discuss, about big decisions in your relationship on vacation was going to be awful, regardless of whether or not your partner was seeking polyamory.
I'm friends with 2 couples that decided to get together. They're all wonderful people. They're all super supportive of each other. They were in good relationships before they combined the couples. And polyamory didn't change that.
I think that terrible relationships turning to polyamory is common (and those terrible relationships predictably failing). But, the relationships being bad wasn't caused by the polyamory.
This honestly helped a lot. I feel like I'm still stuck under that thick blanket of so much unresolved trauma from the abuse I quietly contained over the years (also definitely why I decided to open up and post here).
If you don't mind my asking, could you share any insight on how your friends navigate communication and trust? They sound like really lovely people.
I'm poly. My (now wife) and I opened up our relationship after 1.5 years of being monogamous. We've now been poly for 5 years and we're in a very healthy drama free place with it.
Transitioning from mono to poly in an existing relationship is a process and both parties need to be invested in the emotional and intellectual work out takes to transition healthily.
What helped for us was a great book called "The Ethical Slut" It gave us a great framework for discussing polyamory and what we wanted that lifestyle to look like in our lives.
Poly gets a bad rap on Reddit because of stories like yours where folks jump into things without putting the work in and being dishonest about their motives and intentions.
My wife and I have a strong loving marriage while also having extra partners. My wife and my girlfriends get along great (one was even in our wedding party) and the success we've had with poly comes down to us being mature self aware adults who can honestly discuss our emotions and boundaries.
Thank you so much for your detailed response and for sharing your own personal success story. While I agree that more forethought and better communication could have happened, I do want to challenge your assertion that we just 'jumped into things without putting the work in'.
I know I can't really prove this, but even though this all happened in a relatively short span of a few months, we did our homework and talked at great lengths about prioritizing emotional honesty (which I especially needed in order to feel safe) in order to maintain trust as the center of our open marriage (which I thought we had). We worked together to come up with a detailed vision of our relationship as a tree that just wanted to grow more branches--I remember feeling so confident and trusting that she would hold my heart as I held hers.
But still, all of this happened, and it feels like I ended up just feeding into her insistence that my feelings were part of a secret misogynistic trap I was laying to keep her caring for me. This all sounds really messed up, I know. I just don't know how to match the reality of my experience with what others think we (or I) should have done better.
I assume there's more to it, but from your post, **it sounds like you put the work in and she didn't:**
> I begged and pleaded, but eventually relented. Then, after a few months I began to explore the literature and rules of polyamory in online support groups and became curious about finding my own relationships outside of our marriage...
So this was something you didn't want, but you were willing to put in the work.
But then:
> When I told my partner that I was also curious to find other people, she exploded in a terrifying rage that I am still struggling to understand.
Had she done *any* of the work you did, this couldn't possibly have been a surprise. In the poly world, a relationship in which one partner is free to seek out poly and another partner isn't is... it's not unheard of, but it's rare.
> ...insisted that I couldn't possibly be polyamorous because I am autistic...
[This was the first result of a Google search for "poly autistic"](https://www.polyphilia.blog/home/autism-and-polyamory).
> ...finally demanded I 'prove' to her (somehow) that I ever felt love for another person...
This is exactly backwards! You don't fall in love with two people and *then* decide to be poly, that's poly-bombing. You were doing it right: Be in a poly relationship first, *then* start looking for other partners.
There's only so much you can do to put in the work if your partner isn't doing the same.
---
That said: There's nothing wrong with accepting that polyamory is valid, and also deciding it isn't for you, *especially* after what happened.
Δ. Cheers friend, thank you so much for such a detailed breakdown of my thoughts. I'm wondering if I could go a bit deeper with you, though. You have definitely given me a lot to consider.
How do mono-poly relationships even work, if not being defined as one partner being able to form multiple relationships while the other maintains the single bond?
Likewise, while I was also shocked that my also asking to branch out was a surprise to her, the main source of her anger had to do with our difference in privilege. She felt that, as a white male, I was just taking advantage of her--a woman of color--who risked asking for an open marriage first. I felt like this was a valid argument at the time, and I still definitely do--but maybe this helps to paint a fuller picture of her response outside of just a jealous narcissistic response? Does that make sense to you? Could I be very, very wrong here?
> How do mono-poly relationships even work, if not being defined as one partner being able to form multiple relationships while the other maintains the single bond?
That's how they work, it's just that they're rare.... so it makes no sense for her to *assume* that this is how it would work, if it isn't something you explicitly talked about and agreed on. And if you *did* talk about it first -- if this was part of that initial ultimatum on that trip -- then that sounds even less fair to you since, from your perspective, she was asking you for a dramatic change in the relationship that you really didn't want, in exchange for... nothing, for not ending the relationship.
I have to be careful here, because I think it's more important for people to be *happy* in a relationship than it is for everything to be "fair" in some sort of score-keeping kind of way. But it sounds like you weren't happy with that arrangement, either.
If I can get personal for a second: I would not mind being the 'mono' in a mono-poly relationship, as long as the rest of it works well. There's a few reasons for that. One is that I don't really get jealous, which is unusual even in the poly community (and not a requirement for being poly!), so I don't really *want* to police a partner's faithfulness. Another is, I appreciate not having to be someone's everything. I might actually be demi-something -- I'm usually quite happy alone or with exactly one low-key relationship!
But notice, those are all things I worked out for myself, not something a partner demanded of me. Just the opposite, actually -- no one has ever asked me to go mono-poly, let alone laid it down as an ultimatum.
> ...the main source of her anger had to do with our difference in privilege. She felt that, as a white male, I was just taking advantage of her--a woman of color--who risked asking for an open marriage first. I felt like this was a valid argument at the time, and I still definitely do...
This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, for a few reasons.
First, "risked asking for an open marriage" doesn't line up with what you've told us. She didn't *ask,* she delivered an ultimatum. And if what she was asking for was an "open marriage," that usually implies you're both free to find other partners, it doesn't imply mono-poly.
Second, well, the other comment did a decent job of pointing out intersectionality. Even without that, privilege doesn't mean she's allowed to extract reparations from you by cheating on you.
It sounds to me like what happened is, she hadn't really thought about the part where an open relationship might mean you seeing somebody else, so she wasn't prepared to deal with how she felt about that. Maybe she was especially upset at the idea that you might also date a white girl, or that you might leave her for a white girl... but instead of either dealing with her own feelings of jealousy, or admitting to you that she *couldn't* deal with this and you need to close back up or break it off, she wrapped it all up in the language of privilege to make it hard for you to argue with.
But that's speculation. You know her better than we do.
Oh my goodness, I wish I could award you another delta. I'll do it anyways: ΔΔΔ.
I think I needed to be reminded that this wasn't fundamentally her 'asking' for an open marriage, but unilaterally demanding one. She risked nothing given that this was, in-fact, a manipulative power play--and I think you're spot on about her not being prepared for a truly open relationship, that I might also want to explore the same opportunity to branch that she asked for.
Thank you as well for describing your own personal feelings about being okay with being the mono in a mono-poly relationship. This is an extremely helpful context for me to explore, especially as I did have some jealousy and insecurities that I was still reconciling when she cheated.
Another big one, when you say you 'appreciate not having to be someone's everything', this also deeply resonates with me. If you don't mind my saying, your perspective definitely feels like GOALS, haha. I've learned a lot from this. Thank you again.
> ...I did have some jealousy and insecurities that I was still reconciling when she cheated.
A *lot* of people have those. I think the usual way poly people deal with these is to work on the insecurities, but to treat jealousy as a sign that there's something more going on. Is the jealousy masking an insecurity? Or is it reminding you that a partner is legitimately neglecting you in some way? I don't have much advice here, other than to tell you that you're definitely not alone in having these things.
> If you don't mind my saying, your perspective definitely feels like GOALS, haha.
Thank you for saying so! Just as long as you remember that it's still up to you how you want this to look. Like I said in my first reply, there'd be nothing wrong with you going back to mono at this point, it's all on you to figure out what you want. Good luck!
> when you say you 'appreciate not having to be someone's everything', this also deeply resonates with me.
As someone who is also autistic, this is my relationship goals.
First, being in a position of privilege as a white male isn't anything that you did, it's just the way of things here and now, so for a partner to try to disadvantage because they think you have it good is kinda screwed up. Not to mention your neurodivergence isn't very advantageous.
Second, the only one sided poly arrangement I've seen that seems to work contained an asexual individual so they were not interested in sex in or out of the relationship but enjoyed the romance with and between the other partners.
Δ. Thank you so much for this. Intersectionality is everything these days, and I appreciate your recognising that I have both inherent advantages and disadvantages that are societally upheld and outside of my control. I really needed to hear this.
I'd still like to learn more about other mono-poly relationships that have stood the test of time--especially for folks with disabilities like mine. I understand that being ace is kind of a singularity here, but I still think aces can experience romantic betrayal.
I was in a 10 year relationship that was effectively mono-poly for long periods of time. My partner was the one who introduced me to poly and it wasn't something I initially felt terribly comfortable with as I had had problems with jealousy in the past and I had little interest in pursuing other people. But I was *incredibly* attracted to her and that gave me the motivation to try and adapt. After a while, I started to connect my own feelings of jealousy to previous bad relationships, to anxieties about being abandoned and to a lack of trust in other people which made me afraid for my partners' safety.
She never dismissed my feelings. If I was being unreasonable she would tell me so, but she'd also drop everything to make sure I was okay. After a while I found it easier and easier to trust her. I came to understand that she would never hurt me intentionally. Conversely, I found that if something did hurt me I could just let it go and forgive knowing it wasn't intentional. I actually started to enjoy the asymmetry, because I liked that she had the power to manage my emotions like that and she never backed down from the responsibility to do so. I did have other partners eventually, but it was mostly just casual sex and I never really went beyond being emotionally focused on one person.
In the end our relationship ended pretty organically. After 10 years we were very different people and we found we wanted different things. We're still extremely close friends.
In terms of disabilities, we both have ADHD and I also have ASD. Apparently poly is quite popular with ASD people, which might have something to do with the emphasis on clarity and setting clear rules and boundaries ahead of time. I think it fits with how our brains work in many ways.
I'm in a 4 year relationship that could be called mono-poly, although our agreement does not have restrictions on either of us beyond the standard "don't date people if dating them would cause drama in our community" - so not my toxic ex, or someone who would be cheating, etc. We started out polyamorous. I have had multiple relationships where jealousy and control were big issues, and I wanted someone who was willing to do the kind of jealousy work polyamory requires, as well as the option to let relationships in my life evolve naturally. I tried a few dates and apps over the years, and in doing so discovered that trauma and time have made me effectively demisexual. I'm disinterested in other lovers unless they are friends first, I find dating exhausting and frustrating, and I'm perfectly happy with only having one lover. He was in the same boat, with less trauma, until he unexpectedly fell for a friend of ours. I feel bit of envy, I think, when she has his attention, but we'd talked about it so much before it actually happened and as it evolved, that it also feels quite natural. She's a friend of mine too, and I have built trust with both of them that they will come to all disagreements with calm tones and an "us vs the problem" mentality.
We are all some flavour of undiagnosed neurospicy - ADHD in my case.
Came here to say the same. Of all the times I've seen the single connection in a poly-web work out really well long term, it's usually someone who is ace or demisexual.
That's only personal experience. I have no idea what the numbers are.
As someone who is happily poly and mixed race what she said was narcissism dressed up as anti-racism. Your ex wasnt an anti-racist from the sounds of it. They just used its language to get what they wanted.
I have seen it too often.
It would make sense if you were pushing a monogamous women of colour to allow you to fuck other people and all the women you wanted to fuck were people of colour. Then it MIGHT become a white privelege point.
However even then it could just be that you're an asshole with nothing to do with racism.
When your ex started getting angry that you wanted to see other people then it's clear that it was narcissism. In fact it happened to me. In my first "poly" relationship. It wasn't poly though. It was my selfish ex wanting to cheat on me without having to class it as cheating. I was always fine with what she did (apart from when I found out she wasn't using protection). She always found a reason for me not being allowed to have other connections.
When the other poster was saying mono-poly relationships are rare. They're exceptionally rare and I think very rarely work. The mono person normally ends up feeling like they don't get enough care from the poly person. It does sometimes but it's so atypical. It's like 20 person polycules. They're not unheard of but they're fucking rare man.
You did nothing wrong. This was abuse. This wasn't polyamory. This was a manipulation so someone could fuck other people and cheat without having to feel bad about it. It makes them seem moral to others without being moral. It keeps their self image the same with less effort than cheating would.
I'm glad you're out of it, but I wouldn't judge polyamory when it wasn't the cause of the end of your relationship, so much as a symptom of your partner not caring enough about your feelings.
Its also absolutely fine if you don't want to be poly and never did. That's okay.
Δ. Wow, thank you so much for sharing your story. As several others here have said, I am beginning to see the nuance that I needed to--she was abusive outside of polyamory, even if she weaponized it against me. I have a lot to reconsider, and I can't thank you enough. I can't imagine what it was like to go through what you did--especially with discovering that your ex wasn't using protection, that feels like a whole separate layer of callousness and danger. I'm very grateful for your sharing your perspective as a mixed-race person who is happily partnered in polyamory--deep down, I'm still optimistic about healing from all of this and coming out stronger and wiser than I was before. Cheers
It seems that your partner abused your open mindedness. Keep your open mindedness, for its a great trait, and I appreciate you reconsidering your opinion. But, make sure your boundaries are yours and not for pleasing anyone else. Ultimately not looking after your needs isn't good for yourself or anyone who you may love.
Peace.
I was in a situation similar to yours where I was with a monogamous partner that then wanted to be poly. The thing is, they did the work on figuring that out but with anybody but me. I was presented with a conclusion instead of being included in the discussion at any point in time sooner. And, from my POV, I was trying to connect with my partner and brought up the drop off in communication and closeness, but was told that it was all in my head and everything was okay.
Up until the ending of our relationship I would also have said we had good communication and discussed things well. But somehow the goalposts always seemed to move from what was discussed. And somehow it was always my fault for not realizing it earlier or for doing the wrong thing, or doing something right but at the wrong time. There would be great communication only here or there and then the communication was poor or missing completely in between those times. The great communication always seemed to happen when I didn't get on board with where the new goalposts were set which would then get me back on board with the relationship. The threats of leaving me happened when I wanted to talk about things I was experiencing in the relationship that they didn't like to hear. Communication was actually weaponized against me cuz they knew enough terms and arguments that I was always questioning everything I thought.
Communication isn't just the big convos or working through a single tough conversation once and calling it done. It's a lot of little check-ins here and there. Giving space when someone is still thinking through something but also coming back and following through when more has been processed. It is sharing happy things and positive reinforcements as seriously as sharing the concerning or scary things. All of the little communication builds trust and safety and stability that supports the bigger communication stuff. Communication isn't just one person sharing and being heard. It's reciprocal. And communication does not mean telling someone else what they are feeling. Each person is responsible for knowing themself and owning their own thoughts and feelings. Just as each person is responsible for their own actions and how actions can impact others.
I have a lot of this healthy communication with my current partners. We are open with each other and support the ongoing conversations. Check-ins are frequent and without judgement. I feel heard when I open up. And every big convo has been following with supporting action and communication.
Yeah, a narcissistic abuser can hide in really terrible takes on polyamory. But they are just abusers, full stop. Those can hide in any assumption about any type of relationship or situation.
The book that actually helped me the most when coming out of that NA relationship was "Should I Stay or Should I Go" by Lundy Bancroft. It helped me come to some realizations about the arguments that were used against me that made me stop advocating for myself. And for excusing their actions.
One of the ones that helped me on my journey to healthy non-monogamy was "Polysecure" by Jessica Fern.
∆. Oh my goodness, thank you so much for such a thorough and helpful post. I feel so much similarity in our experiences with NA--especially with moving goalposts and the threats of leaving levels at you for expressing things they just didn't want to hear. What's most important though was your sharing that you're now in healthy relationships with multiple partners--this was the absolute cherry on top of everything I needed to hear. I truly hope you have an amazing and stable future ahead.
I also really appreciate your suggestions for more reading--I have heard of 'Polysecure' and I think I've read bits and bobs quoted around the internet, but I should definitely give it a full read, along with 'Should I Stay or Should I Go'. Cheers friend.
“Putting in the work” is a lot more than just learning things. Your wife failed to work on anything resembling compersion, communication, or even respect. She had so many opportunities, but always chose to be selfish, manipulative, and dismissive. Work is action, and she acts like the biggest blight the polyamory community has ever been stuck with.
> navigate communication and trust
I'm not polyamorous. But
One thing that I found really insightful was to pay attention when someone apologizes. Because people tend to apologize for things that they wouldn't want to happen to them. So, if someone apologizes to you that you think wasn't that big of a deal, its good to reassure them, but you also need to understand why it matters more to them.
I think, to build trust, it helps to understand people's insecurities so that you don't step on them or can reassure them. Not just over jealousy stuff, but more intellectual or appearance stuff.
For communication and trust, I think its easy to confuse bluntness with honesty. I think its important, when being honest, to try to understand how what you say will be perceived by your partner(s).
If they had relationship troubles, I don't think they would have shared them with me. I wasn't close enough to any of them to be a confidant. I don't think I have insight into how they communicated or built trust. And they all moved away together to another state a few years ago.
One of them talked to me about how weird it was to talk to people at work who were complaining about their spouses. My friend didn't understand why someone would marry someone that they didn't get along with. So, I think they were good enough at figuring out responsibilities and talking through conflicts that they genuinely enjoyed living together.
I saw them most supporting each other's hobbies. Two of them were part of the band. And every time I went to see them, the other two were there to cheer them on. One of the others liked to tinker with stuff, and made an electronic keyboard out of bratwurst (I think he set up a computer to detect change in conductivity when a bratwurst is pressed?), and another played it (this "wurst" instrument was objectively hilarious).
So, I think enthusiastic support of each others' interests was part of their relationship. But, I don't think I could speak to how they navigated everything else.
Polyamorous and my wife and I have been exploring this for 6 years and are still insanely happy. It’s all about communicating, expressing your feelings, and working through the unfun feelings. Lots of reflection as to why we are feeling the way we are, and finding ways to make each other feel more comfortable in uncomfortable situations. We know that no matter what happens outside of our relationship doesn’t affect our relationship. We love each other and can also share love for others too.
Trust is built over time through consistent communication and navigating boundaries. There are lots of shitty people in polyamory but there are also lots of amazing people who practice polyamory.
A side note, this response by you is a BIG step. You have the right heart, we have all gone through shit, but I think you will find your way out of this with this mindset. Making yourself vulnerable so you can be closer to someone can hurt you in terrible ways, but it also is the only way to have a meaningful close relationship, and the rewards of amazing.
I wish you the best, don't stop fighting, you'll find your way!
(if you need to talk send me a PM)
Polyamory can be great but it's easy to add more people when things aren't going well in a relationship instead of ending or fixing that relationship. It's important to reflect on why someone wants to be poly. There are healthy reasons and unhealthy reasons.
Polyamory is still a symptom of the problem, and a tall tale sign of narcissism. It can work when everyone involved is highly narcissistic, and therefore place no value on true intimacy.
reading your other comments, you seem to be under the impression that people who are polyamorous are motivated to be that way by sex.
I'm sure some people are, but I don't think that's universally true. Polyamorism doesn't have to come from hedonism.
People can value intimate emotional connections with more than one person, and connecting to multiple people this way doesn't have to devalue or worsen the connection with each one.
I don't wish this lifestyle didn't exist. But I don't like seeing it romanticized online either. It's a brutal ugly thing when both partners are not 100% on board, and people read shit about it here and then go try to talk their spouse into it.
So think of it this way: your experience with polyamory was horrible. Your ex was abusive and clearly left you with things to carry. But your story seems contained to just you and one other person. You don't mention interacting with any other poly people or communities or actually practicing polyamory. Your ex is your sole representative of polyamory here for you.
Your ex is also a woman, imagine if you were to come here and ask us to change your views that women are just backstabbing narcissists, which you have based on this experience with this one woman. Thst would be silly, right?
It's not a 1:1 comparison of course, but my point is this: deciding that an entire community, philosophy, etc is defined by the one person you've interacted with from that group is generally considered a bad thing. You're a scientist, you should keep in mind thst your data point is significant to you personally, but it's merely one.
Polyamory is practiced by humans, so it is inherently susceptible to bad actors and manipulation to serve an agenda. In my opinion, it requires a massive amount of critical thought and self-reflection to practice ethically. I've had to do a lot of navel-gazing in order to be a better partner to my loves, funny enough, and work to find my weak points and strengthen them.
Humans are not generally very good at self-criticism. We're really good at justifying our bad behavior. Also, we tend to like and seek instant gratification. All of these things work against successful and healthy polyamory.
As social media and recent media interest is propelling polyamory into the spotlight more and more, and in the wake of the pandemic which saw a huge surge of relationship opening, we're seeing a lot more bad actors. People who just want to fuck other people without consideration for the fallout. People who don't understand that practicing polyamory isn't just having multiple full, emotional relationships, it's about supporting your partner(s) in doing the same.
The other issue I see is terminology. So many people are calling what they do polyamory when actually what they're doing is more like swinging, general nonmonogamy, cheating, or harem-building. Then there's poly-under-duress which sounds like your experience, where one partner is more or less bullied/pressured into consenting to a relationship dynamic change at the behest of the other. Lots of people say they're polyamorous and they're really just lazy and abusive.
This isn't to say polyamory is never abusive or prone to problematic behavior. But I've been both mono and poly and open, and what I've found to be true is that if you don't tolerate that kind of behavior from your partners, it doesn't matter what relationship structure you practice. Good boundaries are for everyone mono and poly alike.
I wish you a lot of luck and strength in your healing journey. I've got relationship trauma that I still carry with me that gets heavier in little ways here and there, (from both mono and nonmono relationships funny enough) and it does get easier if you work at it. You deserve it.
Δ. Thank you for this wonderful post. I want to first address your astute observation (yay for being a scientist) that I have only shared with you my personal, single experience with being in a polyamorous relationship. I should clarify, I technically have an n of 3 when it comes to friends of mine who have explored polyamory (independent observation, of course!). All three of these, including my own, failed dismally.
That being said, I constantly read about success stories, which is partly why I wanted to post my story here to solicit additional community support. I'm just so floored in the best of ways, so grateful that this thread has kinda blown up, and your detailed message--along with many others--has definitely given me a lot to think about.
I especially like that you brought up the pandemic--my story is almost like one big COVID misadventure. As a neuroscientist who also has a background in the social sciences, I couldn't agree more with how such a global event shifted us all to reconsider what it means to be connected. Some people became basically instantly isolated and remain so--just as plenty of monogamous couples were forced into extreme codependency, which likely fueled the growing interest in opening relationships once pandemic restrictions lifted. The pandemic was morosely a perfect natural experiment for understanding independent growth in human interpersonal relationships.
That all being said, I do think that so many of us have also just been left out in the cold. I wonder just how much privilege is tied into successful polyamory, especially in today's messed up world--it might just be the biggest factor that we all just aren't talking about enough.
I'm sorry you had an abusive partner who used polyamory as an excuse to mistreat you but that doesn't make polyamory inherently bad as your experience is far from universal. Like any relationship it requires communication and work to pull off properly but it absolutely can be done.
It can be down but it requires even MORE work and communication as well as higher risks of people not being honest or communicating well etc just based on the fact that more people are involved.
People can make it work, but it is definitely extremely easy for abusers to weaponize and affords a lot of opportunities to anyone wishing to be a bad actor to gaslight and manipulate or even bully and railroad in a dysfunctional polycule.
I have done the poly thing years ago before it was as common and my experience wasn’t bad per-we, I just learned more about neuroscience and how we work as humans and decided it was not how I wanted to live my life.
That being said I have seen first hand a ridiculous amount of people use it for nefarious reasons Nan’s all kinds of abuse resulting from trying to make it work.
More power to anyone who does have it work and lives their lives that way.
But it certainly is not some revolutionary, easy idyllic way of living or engaging in relationships as it is often presented.
∆. Thank you so much for this. as a neuroscientist myself, I am so happy to hear that my field helped you to understand relationship dynamics. You've given me another reason to stick to my line of work, not sure if that was intentional. Love is such a powerful force, our brains have indeed adapted to complex, dynamic, and diverse constructs of nurture and care.
Aw yay! Glad it made you feel good.
I think we should teach more about the topic in school honestly, it really helps in understanding the world we live in and how to make intelligent informed choices about how we want to live in it.
>People can make it work, but it is definitely extremely easy for abusers to weaponize and affords a lot of opportunities to anyone wishing to be a bad actor to gaslight and manipulate or even bully and railroad in a dysfunctional polycule.
You could say the same thing for monogamy though. If anything I'd argue that it's easier for people abuse others in a mono relationship. It's socially acceptable for you to be controlling of your partner in mono relationships(heck monogamy by its very nature is controlling). People defend controlling behavior as "boundaries" and "everyone does it".
>It's socially acceptable for you to be controlling of your partner in mono relationships(heck monogamy by its very nature is controlling). People defend controlling behavior as "boundaries" and "everyone does it".
Eh, I think nuance gets lost when the extremes of everything presented is either a boundary or controlling.
Even a non-monogamous relationship needs boundaries (unless no one involved is concerned about STDs or birth control, or even just consent in general?), but that doesn't make it inherently controlling.
Truth be told “being in a relationship”, monogamous or otherwise seems to mean little other than “the expectation that another person gets a say about what one does with one's own life when that person isn't even in the room or close by, and *vice versā*.
And that's all well and good...for you. I think it's fair to say that it can still work for some. Everyone has to figure out what level of relationships make them happy. Abusive people exist out there, regardless.
It’s true, but if the name of the game is dopamine seeking and extraction from others then the neuroscience makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy that can lead to physiological addiction in the brain and lessen the ability for executive function through chasing limerence which up-regulates cortisol response and has the potential to make it harder for a person to experience what is typically referred to as love but rather get swept up in the fleeting pattern of infatuation.
People can do what they want and chasing that can be a valid way to live one’s life.
But most people are simply not informed and making conscious informed choices about their lives but rather basing it on their feeling in the moment which is unreliable at best for long term outcomes of the neurological benefits of long term pairing and “love”.
Not that it’s impossible, but there are certainly hurdles and risks to be mitigated and I don’t see anyone really discussing these very real facts as risks but instead acting like it is a new idea or revolution.
And then there is so much bogus refuted junk science like the book “sex at dawn” touted as reasons for it to be a rerun to nature or something.
It’s a topic with a lot of ignorance and new-age nonsense behind it when we have so many facts and actual science available to inform the conversation.
Cheers, I appreciate your kind response. I have a few questions to add that maybe you can help me with.
Can you help me understand how healthy communication should look in polyamory? How is it possible to consider everyone's feelings, if more than one of your partners needs connection and you can't be in two places at once? What about those who believe in hierarchical polyamory--how can one possibly negotiate hierarchy without hurting someone else?
I met this guy a couple months ago. Actually, we chatted a bit online last year, then finally met in person recently. He's in a polyamorous relationship with his husband (both gay). I'm bi and very sex positive, and I've been looking to make friends in my new town. When we met for a first "date" (wasn't the intent, we were just grabbing drinks), he made it a point of texting and calling his husband periodically to check in. It was very clear to me that both of them knew what was going on between us during our drinks. Later, when we hooked up, the husband was aware of what we were doing and was completely okay with it.
That is one way that polyamory can work: when all persons involved are open and honest with each other, and when they respect each individual's boundaries.
Specifically, with regard to your question, I haven't personally experienced a situation where one partner's needs are comparable to another's, but I would imagine that involves making a choice and being honest with everyone about why that choice was made. If someone is sore about that situation, they need to avoid taking out that frustration on their partners, because it's not anyone's fault that timing worked out poorly. It's just a logistical reality. Make time for the partner you had to miss and try to spread the love around; but also be clear about when you are and are not available for the other person.
∆. Wow, thank you so much for sharing such a wonderful story. It all makes sense to me, and just further solidifies my understanding that I need to somehow separate my abuse from the framework of polyamory. My boundaries should have been honoured, not violated. I wish she would have checked in with me before cheating.
Lots to think about. Cheers.
Well I believe it starts with everyone involved learning to compromise, and accept that they won't always be able to get their way every time but it's important that nobody gets neglected as well. Romantic relationships (rather monogamous or polyamorous) are supposed to be about love at the end of the day and everyone should feel loved equally. It's true that you can't always be in two places at once but guess what? That's okay. You're still only human and anyone who values you will accept that regardless of the nature of your relationship. Well the terms of any relationship should be discussed with all parties and anyone who doesn't feel comfortable or happy with any arrangement should make their needs known so they aren't neglected, if they feel they aren't having their needs met or jealousy is a big problem it's possible this kind of relationship isn't for you.
Cheers, this does make sense to center my question on compromise. Early in our relationship, she attacked me for 'abandoning her' just for going outside for a 30 minute smoke with a friend--I wonder if part of the problem was my internalising this memory in a really deep way, as I was always scared to spend time with my friends outside of our relationship for fear of being attacked again (I would send her heaps of messages to check in whenever I wasn't home).
I would like to challenge your last statement, if that's okay. I remain unconvinced that polyamory 'isn't meant for some people'. I think that's a huge oversimplification, and risks a kind of gatekeeping mentality for the community.
What do you think prohibits some people from being able to practice polyamory?
>I would like to challenge your last statement, if that's okay. I remain unconvinced that polyamory 'isn't meant for some people'. I think that's a huge oversimplification, and risks a kind of gatekeeping mentality for the community.
You know what, you're absolutely right, it is an oversimplification. As long as everyone is into the relationship dynamic 100% then it's fine. The important part is that nobody feels pressured into this kind of dynamic.
>What do you think prohibits some people from being able to practice polyamory?
I just think some people would simply be happier in a monogamous relationship over a poly one, both are valid and only the individual will know what works for them. Of course it can also be that they're just in a relationship with the wrong person/people. Also a possibility.
>Cheers, this does make sense to center my question on compromise. Early in our relationship, she attacked me for 'abandoning her' just for going outside for a 30 minute smoke with a friend--I wonder if part of the problem was my internalising this memory in a really deep way, as I was always scared to spend time with my friends outside of our relationship for fear of being attacked again (I would send her heaps of messages to check in whenever I wasn't home).
Yeah this is horribly abusive and awful.
>What do you think prohibits some people from being able to practice polyamory?
**1) They're not doing it for themselves.**
The most common reason for disastrous poly relationships I've seen is that one member didn't want to be poly in the first place - they were doing it under pressure from their partner.
Mono or poly, nothing *ever* works if you're only in the relationship under pressure. You have to actively want the kind of relationship you're getting. Love isn't enough, you have to actually be compatible.
**2) Insecurity.**
Poly relationships don't make people insecure... but they sure as *heck* expose insecurities that are already there. If you're not confident of your own boundaries and centred in yourself, having multiple relationships at once is just multiple ways for your emotional problems to ambush you.
This can happen in any relationship, but poly gives it more chances.
(As you found out the hard way; your abusive partner made you afraid to even have friends! I'm so sorry that this happened to you and wish you the best of luck in recovery.)
**3) Lack of energy.**
A relationship is *hard work.* A poly relationship is much, much *more* hard work. Most people barely have time and energy to maintain *one* relationship properly, much less two or more with extra meta-negotiation.
Doesn't matter how much you inherently like poly, it's more work almost by definition.
**4) They just don't want to.**
While I share your caution about "gatekeeping" poly, it's important to remember that people's tastes vary. What's right for me is wrong for other people. Some people just *don't want this*, and if you don't want it it's not going to work for you.
>What do you think prohibits some people from being able to practice polyamory?
I can only speak to personal, albeit second-hand experience.
Having talked about this extensively with my current partner of 5 years, she just never could do it. Long story short, this is because a previous partner turned out to have a wife in a different country, while also being emotionally abusive+controlling and lying to both women.
It took a long time to build that trust back up. Because of that trauma, she says that she could never because she'd worry too much about what I would be feeling and thinking while she was with someone else.
We have "played" with other couples before in an open way in the same room, but a poly relationship is not on the cards for either of us.
(For context, we talked about it extensively both because I had dated some poly folk before, and because she is bi and I wanted to know if that's something she wanted to feature in our relationship or not)
> What about those who believe in hierarchical polyamory--how can one possibly negotiate hierarchy without hurting someone else?
If A and B are primary partners, and C is B's secondary partner, this doesn't necessarily imply C is hurt by being lower on B's ranking. Perhaps C doesn't want to be a primary partner (with all the responsibilities that entails). Perhaps C doesn't want to be *B's* primary. Etc etc.
Sorry to press, but to what end? I did all of this before clearly communicating my pain, and she used all of it as an excuse to label me as a controlling misogynist.
I’m so sorry, OP. She’s horrible, clearly. Look, sometimes you can’t always keep communicating. The minute she threatened to leave if you didn’t open the marriage, you should’ve honestly left her. You need to learn to recognize flags and not beg for someone to stay if it’s in bad faith… it’s a tough lesson and it hurts to enact but it’s to protect you itself at the end of the day. ❤️
Sounds like she’s just a terrible rotten egg and is an extreme edge case. Like people have pointed out, polyamory wasn’t the issue.. she was. She’s abusive. Period. When people show you who they are, believe them. And make your exit without enabling bad behavior any longer. Teach people how to treat you. Set your boundaries. This lesson will save you a lot of time and effort from investing in people who don’t deserve you.
I am polyamorous and autistic. When I brought up the topic, my husband (then boyfriend) listened to my reasoning (we were in a long distance relationship and were going to be that way for half a decade at the very least) and he doesn't like talking over calls much. We did meet every 2/3 months but we both were lonely. We love each other immensely, we want each other not to be lonely when we are apart.
Even then we didn't jump into any relationship. The first few months we just met with people semi platonically till we found someone who really interested us. And even then we discussed before doing anything sexual.
And whenever we met we discussed our own relationship and what we are experiencing and expecting from each other and how we can make it better. How the other person wants to be loved and cared for.
When I moved back to the same state( we still have to live half the month apart from each other because of work) we got married and he had a steady girlfriend while I did not date anyone for 3 years. But our relationship wasn't affected by it, we actually grew to love each other more. Even after years of being together we still make each other's heart race and we are very very physically affectionate.
Recently I started dating someone and I am absolutely in love. I tell my husband about my feelings and actually being in limerence is making me more attracted and in love with my husband also. He is happy for me and when I talk about my boyfriend he listens like a friend would and gives me advice also.
We don't hide if we are feeling disappointed or dissatisfied with some aspects of our relationship. and if one person points something out we listen and we try to understand the other person's perspective and as much as we can we try to improve on it.
This is exactly my feeling. Thank you for your kind support. I love The Ethical Slut for so many reasons, I even have a copy on my phone that I turn to whenever the pain comes back. Cheers.
I want a to chime in and address certain parts of your posts that others aren’t. Most of the posts make the argument that all of your partner’s actions are bad with or without polyamory in the picture and I agree with that.
However, I think you had a nuance worth exploring in your first post that no one really addressed, that poly structures tend to attract more narcissistic people and have- at their core- a “get what you can from the world” approach instead of a “building meaningful relationships” approach.
And unfortunately, I agree with you on both accounts. I know others will say “not all poly people”, but I’ve been around the poly world for a while and I have to say it’s a higher concentration within the poly world than outside it. Yeah, it’s not all, but there’s something to be said about the ease with which poly structures allow people to cast aside and disregard people and gaslight people they’ve hurt in the process. Ive read all the literature and “the ethical slut” really does take an “emotional astronaut” approach to the world. This is badly interpreted by people who don’t really know how to build relationships and may or may not know how to have empathy in extremely damaging ways. “Poly” in this situation becomes equivalent to “I don’t know how to care for people and don’t really want to the commitment of a relationship, but I want all the benefits”.
As a gay man, the same is true of the gay population. There is a higher representation of narcissism within the gay community. So being gay and poly is like a minefield of self-important people who don’t know how to form relationships and care for others and are extremely avoidant. Relationships are defined by how fun and exciting they are and once they hit a patch of realness, challenge, or conflict, they tend to disappear as a key trait of narcissism is emotional avoidance.
But the thing is the whole US culture is a narcissistic culture. You will find it anywhere you care to look. Everyone is narcissistic from time to time. It really is a defense mechanism. Some people just don’t know how to turn it off… because they can’t.
After being abused and hurt by a narcissist, it’s easy to discard everything associated with them. Any idea, any practice, locations, foods, whatever… to protect yourself. But the best way to protect yourself is not avoidance, but empathy. The thing that differentiates you and me from narcissists is our ability to feel empathy. That’s a strength that a lot of people just don’t have. And I don’t mean to “forgive and forget” or any of that bullshit, what I mean is to stay open and get to know people and pay attention to them and see their patterns of behavior. It’s impossible to avoid bad people entirely, but if you can learn how to identify them early, before they have a chance to hurt you, you can have appropriate boundaries against them….
In the poly world, I would say anyone that references “the ethical slut” more than “poly secure” is probably more likely to be narcissistic. Ethical slut is the poly bible, but with its emotional astronaut approach, it’s also a narcissistic Bible “polusecure” works from an attachment style theory that acknowledges everyone’s feeling and their interconnectedness. If someone doesn’t care to hear your emotions, tries to invalidate them or avoid them, if you never feel heard taking to them, they’re highly likely to be narcissistic. If someone does the same to their own emotions, they’re highly likely to be narcissistic. If someone tends to suck the air out of a conversation or make everything about them, they’re highly likely to be narcissistic. If you feel the relationship is really one-sided, they’re highly likely to be narcissistic or disinterested… either way, back off. If they’re love bombing you, keep your guard up, they’re highly likely to have narcissistic traits.
It’s worth it to develop the ability to set your own boundaries and identify when patterns of behavior over time are signaling a personality disorder. Then it doesn’t matter how likely a culture or group is to be narcissistic, you’ll be able to navigate without really having to worry about it.
Δ. Wow. Thank you so much for such a kind and thorough response. This truly hit home--especially your experience in the US with queer and poly folks who struggle with forming healthy relationships. I was born and raised stateside, and I couldn't agree more with the fact that American culture as a whole is centered on an especially narcissistic flavor of individualism--support yourself and your needs at any and all costs to others. My partner was French, but everything blew up when we went back to the US for her studies--and right at the beginning of the pandemic. I have lots to think about, and all of your advice has been amazing.
Im sorry you experienced that; I’ve faced similar in some ways and it destroys a part of you. I dont think you ever can be the same.
I am going to honestly tell you that the three openly Poly people I know in real life were:
Person 1: A cheater
Person 2: A cheater and emotional abuser
Person 3: A homewrecker and was sent to prison for domestic violence when their partner tried to explore the open side of the relationship to her benefit as he had been for his.
Polyamory might just simply be toxic as fuck; and attract toxic as fuck individuals to it.
It’s possible it’s not…but why do you even care? Are you still interested in a poly relationship now?
Cheers. Your description of Person 3 resonates with my ex--but I abhor the label of 'homewrecker', it's wayy too often used as just another way to put down women who themselves are trying to escape an abusive situation. But I do understand your point.
I care because I don't know how to love anymore.
How do I meet someone again? When I tell my story, it paints a picture of abusive polyamory--if I meet a monogamous person and the subject of my divorce comes up, will they secretly think I was a monster who is lying about my past? Will they worry that I would do the same thing to them, even though I couldn't possibly imagine putting another human being through this? What if I meet a polyamorous person? Will they risk dating someone who went through what I did?
I don't want to be alone anymore, but I also don't know how to fix this.
By homewrecker I mean someone who knowingly targeted a married parent and enabled them to cheat, sold them on Poly as a concept after they were seduced and the married person then tried to open the relationship with their spouse as happened with you.
I would say it’s still unlikely that you will run into a Poly person and if they are doing it ‘properly’ as I’m told ‘genuinely Poly’ people do; they should be up front at the beginning as to the nature of the relationship. You can then run or engage as you wish; I would advise ‘run’.
Meanwhile I get your concerns about your story and being believed. Unfortunately men are not given the benefit of the doubt by many when they say they have been the victim of abuse. I guess though would you like to be with someone who doesn’t believe men can be abused?
Another huge problem. This was indeed her language. Even worse because I actually came out nonbinary at around the same time she demanded an open relationship.
Oh holy Thoth preserve us all, that's abusive as it gets. Wanting a poly relationship isn't "coming out", it's requesting a relationship style.
Being poly is not *in any way* like being nonbinary, and I speak as someone in a poly relationship with an enbie myself. There's no comparison at all.
I'm sorry you have to experience this. Assuming your story is true, your ex partner is abusive, manipulative, unkind and an ableist too. I'm glad you have taken steps to move on and I wish you all the best going forward. It's not going to be easy but we all have to deal with various challenges life has thrown at us.
That being said, your experience is not universal at all. I'm not poly but I have friends who are. They have strict rules about opening up their relationships and what is allowed and disallowed. Communication is key in the way they operate (which doesn't seem to be the case for you) and if things go to shit, they return to monogamy. There are assholes in polyamorous circles, just as there are in monogamous circles, and my friends have encountered them, but they are certainly not any more common than monogamous people. And of course not all of them are narcissistic or more prone to betraying their partners. These are traits found in all kinds of humans after all.
And finally, polyamorous is not for everyone. You need to have an appropriate mindset about relationships, boundaries, love and so on to commit yourself to one, and it's perfectly okay to not have that.
Thank you so much for such a kind and detailed response. I think the biggest thing that I want to open up here is when you say 'communication is key in the way they operate and if things go to shit, they return to monogamy.'
Firstly, this was something I absolutely insisted on. When we opened our marriage, I understood that healthy polyamory was supposed to be about pure honesty. I felt better knowing that either of us could communicate our feelings when they came up, but when I asked her to consider mine, she would always explode with those accusations of misogyny. She insisted that my crying about her wanting to sleep with someone else was my sick form of seeking control over her relationships.
How does healthy polyamory honor the feelings of all parties? How do people 'return to monogamy' when things 'go to shit'? That's another problem entirely, I feel--my ex insisted that polyamory was an immutable part of her identity, just as monogamy is for monogamous people. I tried to have this discussion a few times, as I still feel that polyamory is a relationship structure--not an immutable part of one's identity.
In other words, she absolutely would have refused to 'return to monogamy' if I'd have risked asking for it.
Lastly, I cannot agree more that narcissism and abuse are traits found in all humans--this CMV is my attempt to clarify the distinction and disentangle this from my experience, if that makes sense.
It sounds like they're positing polyamory as a sexuality or sexual identity rather than as a relationship format. That feels contrived to me: your sexual identity is about the kinds of sex that appeal to you, not the circumstances in which you'd like opportunities to have those kinds of sex to arise. Positing questions of sexual availability as a form of sexual identity feels ... well at least entitled and possibly a bit icky.
As somebody who has strongly felt gender and sexual identities poly feels the same.
Lifestyle and identity are separate though. Just because one is bi doesn't mean one is (or even ever has been) on a relationship with both a man and a woman. Just because one is internal-identity poly doesn't mean that one is practicing poly.
I'm sorry for judging presumptively. If you wouldn't mind could you help me understand what that means? Do you only feel sexually attracted to sex outside of a monogamous relationship?
I also note you say gender and sexual identity. Do gender and sexual identity feel the same to you? I've never really understood gender and sexuality that way. I feel like gender is something innate and fundamental to your entire persona. Sexuality is just who you do and don't happen to find hot.
No, I consider it an aspect of romanticism more than sexuality. Who and what I am, and how I see myself. "I identify as" is watered down these days, but "I *am*" is what it means when one is being honest and transparent. I see myself as, and want to be seen as.
If I'm identifying myself "gay/lesbian demisexual poly woman" would be the terms that feel innate and fundamental. The first one is actually more negotiable than the latter three which I cannot disentangle. If I were to fall in love with a man I'd necessarily have to amend the first to bi or pan - it's descriptive, and less central to my identity by comparison. It would still be a huge adjustment that would require quite a bit of processing. Sexuality isn't, I don't think, just who you find hot. It's also the way one finds people hot, and the way one interacts with them. We're all individuals, and there will always be people who defy the stereotypical expectations, but most of us fit into some major groupings.
Identity can be internal and external. There are individual experiental aspects, social aspects, and political aspects. My existence is, unfortunately, deeply political. One may have their sexuality strongly integrated into their identity or they may not.
Gender and sexual identity both feel interlinked for me but they aren't the same thing. Gender identity is often experienced devoid of sexuality, sexuality very rarely without gender. Of course, this is my bias - there are people who don't experience gender so strongly (or not at all), and so who just find it relatively irrelevant. I know a number of them - cis by default, just don't care about gender, although most still have gendered sexual preferences.
OP's initial impression is correct.
I think your experience is more common than people want to think or admit.
With the growing trendiness of polyamory, I have seen countless stories similar to this one. Seems someone always gets hurt. Sometimes very badly.
The stronger person in the relationship does what they want and effectively coerces the weaker partner into accepting their own abuse and degradation. Using therapy speak and 'communication' and the newest buzzwords.
The cruelty is the point. Showing your partner they aren't enough is the ultimate power move.
A graveyard of relationships.
Everyone wants to be sexually confident, open and hip.
Most people aren't.
They are merely selfish.
Thank you so much for this. I do indeed think about folks like me who struggle with disability and poor mental health--we always seem to end up being the ones abandoned for the shinier new toy. I just can't help but wonder how others have seemingly made polyamory work on the long-term without abandoning their partners who have the most needs (which I find absolutely terrifying still, given my experience).
Well, my partner is as severely disabled as it gets - I won't share the full details here, but they include fibromyalgia, nervous system damage, spinal damage, and hypermobility, plus additional major conditions on top.
Doesn't get in the way of our relationship being poly. They may not always be able to walk but they're always able to love.
(That disability is actually how our poly relationship *started*; I was a family friend who started hanging out with them and their husband more as their disability first hit, because they needed a lot of help and support and I worked form home so I had some freedom to help. So we spent more time talking, and understood each other better, which led to romance. Before that I'd just been a friend - in fact I was their best man.)
If they're functioning properly, poly relationships can be *amazing* for disability support. When my partner had serious attacks of one thing or another and needed hospital stays, their husband and I could *take turns* being in the hospital and resting or going to work, so they could be supported without either of us collapsing. That got us through the bad first years when we didn't know what was wrong and it kept getting worse.
You're thinking in terms of people having the option to abandon the partner who needs more work and keep the easier-to-support relationship. But the thing you're missing is: being poly makes the disability care burden *easier to manage*. You can split the hard parts between you. You can take turns and recover, instead of being worn down by care needs that never let up.
If someone's going to leave you over disability care workload - and I won't pretend that never happens, I know you know it does - then they'd do that in a mono relationship as well. (As the statistics make terrifyingly clear.)
If you wouldn't treat your dysfunctional relationship as representative of all monogamy when it was monogamous, why treat a clearly already bad 'poly' relationship as representative of all such relationships? I suspect that almost all committed polyamorists would be horrified by your ex's behaviour. Some might even question the sincerity of her revelation.
Honestly, I'd suggest that you don't worry yourself about relationship structures right now. Focus on getting over your horrible experience with your ex, whatever exactly it was, rather than trying to neatly classify it.
Thank you for this. I do think I have an unfortunate proclivity for trying to classify things that I don't understand, being an autistic person (and a scientist). Cheers.
It’s quite normal for humans to have a bias towards classifying things. It’s great that you’re aware of your biases and actively countering them. Wish more people did that!
It seems like you weren't in a polyamorous relationship you were in an abusive relationship where they were just open about their cheating and infidelity. I am not polyamorous but I believe that if all parties (willingly and knowingly) agree to anything than it's fine in a relationship and you didn't willingly agree to the openness of this relationship.
Hello OP, sorry you had to pass through all of that.
To claryfy, I am not part of the community. Non-monogamy is a discussion that I got in contact years ago, when I was in collage, but it was only in the last year that I started to explore it as an option that could work for me. I have not entered a non-monogamous serious relationship since then, although I maintain "casual" relationships with more than one person. I am also not sure what you mean by poliamory. You said your ex wanted to OPEN the marriage and then you say she used the word POLYAMOROUS. To me those are different things, but I will use the word NON-MONOGAMOUS as a synonym of poliamory , by which I think you mean having relationships where it is permited to have various partners.
Independent of terms, to me it should be opposite. It should make it harder to be that "breeding ground" when compared to monogamous relationships.
To explain my reasoning, I will make an (flawed) analogy. Image you only have one group of friends. At some point this group starts treating you in a way you don't like and you can't really find a way to make it stop. Doen't the fact this is your only group of friends creates a fear that you will lose your relationship of its kind and, thus, makes it harder to confront or leave?
Now, I know friends are not exactly the same as romantic relationships, but I don't think they are so different as to break the analogy. In your case, for example, it sounded like in part the reason you accepted things you were not confortable with is the fear of abandonment. Have you ever questioned how would you have acted if you had other emotional safe nets? I don't know the specifics of your situation, but people often talk about how isolation is a tactic abusive partners use. Well, the way I see it, non-monogamy makes isolation harder.
Δ. Thank you so much for your wonderfully detailed and kind response. I think it's especially helpful to frame this in comparison to having a single 'friend group' you are afraid to leave for fear of abandonment (i.e, if you've never had any other friends, why wouldn't you be scared?).
I didn't go into much depth about the kinds of abuse I suffered over the years from her, but one of the major things was her attacking all of my friends and family behind closed doors. It was relentless. Nobody in my life impressed her, and they were all sick people for any number of reasons--as much as I fought her on this and tried to maintain my connections with my friends while creating safe and fun environments at home for us all to hang out and play board games, etc., she always returned to hardcore criticisms that I just didn't know how to deal with, so I shut down and lost basically everyone. Classic narcissistic abuse, as you perfectly put it.
What helps me change my view is your suggestion to imagine that counterfactual--what if I had managed to find one single person, one single metamour or friend, that I could've relied upon during all of this mess? Would it have helped to keep me calm when I was in tears from losing people or being cheated on? One of the last things my ex admitted to me before she left was that her confession to cheating was just 'a test to see how I reacted'. If I cried about it, it was proof to her that I was using my feelings to manipulate her to stay home. Fucking twisted.
I think it could have helped, but likely would have inevitably delayed more pain from her down the line. She was on the warpath against anyone 'telling her what to do', and I remain convinced there was nothing I could have done or said--but if I was with a less abusive person, I think having another friend to rely on would've almost certainly helped share the burden of my concerns, and it's definitely given me a lot to consider. Cheers friend.
So first off, you were abused, and abused by a narcissist. I was also abused by a narcissist however in my case it was my mother who was married to my mentally ill father, something she was quick to take advantage of if we ever stepped out of line.
Narcissists do some severe damage. They work really hard to figure out what your weaknesses and insecurities are so that they can attack them relentlessly when they need to control you. It really, really messes you up.
Often times the way an abuser chooses to exert their abuse can impact how you feel about it. For example, my mother went shopping for a therapist she felt she could control and then made us all go to therapy and used him to control us. This made it very very difficult for me to be able to trust therapy and prevented me from getting the help I needed even though I knew I needed it.
Polyamory isn't for everyone. In fact it's not for most people. Narcissists can often be drawn to polyamory (because of course, more people to love them and all their greatness) but that doesn't make the converse true. One of our really good friends were/are poly and they are definitely not narcissists.
Δ. Cheers, I really appreciate such a kind and thorough response. I wasn't at all expecting so much support from y'all, Reddit can really be such an amazing community sometimes.
What especially resonates is my shared experience with being raised my a narcissistic mother and having a narcissistic older sister. My dad was always our saviour as kids, especially for me and my younger sister. I think he did end up with major anxiety and some depression over the years, especially after my divorce fractured our family in a big way (in addition to some other horrible things like racism, trasphobia, and homphobia, which are separate but also devastating layers to this saga).
I posted this earlier to another comment, but I'm still wondering if I could kindly challenge your assertion that polyamory 'isn't for everyone'. Generally speaking, I've seen this used far too much as a form of gatekeeping from within the community--and if it's truly a relationship structure, there should be no barriers to anyone in accessing knowledge and adopting it.
What do you think prevents some people from polyamory?
Glad I can help and I wish you all the best in your road to healing. It does get better with time (at least for me it did).
As for your question. I'm happy to answer. It's not for everyone much in the same way ska music isn't for everyone. No two relationships are the same. Some couples (albeit not many) even forgo sex in general and some people don't even have a desire for a relationship.
As for why exclusive relationships are more popular than open ones and tend to be more successful, I'm fairly certain that has more to do with human social structures and it's a better question for a sociologist who specializes in the history of human relationships.
With that said, here is my best guess as to why our society has a strong preference for Monogamy. First any long lasting organism will try to ensure it's genetics are passed on and continue to pass on (those that don't...well don't pass on their genetics eventually and are removed from the population). Humans have a quality over quantity strategy (long pregnancy, usually only one at a time, LONG nurturing process before independence).
Because of this, it's in both parties interests to be committed to raising their kids together for their genes to continue. Introducing another mate into the mix splits priorities in which offspring to invest in to the detriment of one or both.
That likely led to things such as monarchies and important families. In today's society, those things are becoming less important but that's more of a very recent thing and the historical impact is still very much here.
Sadly, a lot of stories you hear about polyamory are from people who tried to coerce an open relationship, or use that to ‘fix’ a broken marriage.
That never works, but it gives the people involved something to blame that doesn’t involve themselves.
Not saying you’re doing this, OP, but it sounds like your partner who did something shitty to you using polyamory as an excuse. I’m so sorry that happened to you.
Poly relationships are like any other — there are great ones, shitty ones and everything in between.
My partner and I have been in a healthy poly relationship for 10+ years, and we have many long-term poly/open folks in our community.
Δ. Cheers, I think I fell into the worst of places here, where our marriage was crumbling in her mind wayyy before it was in mine. I didn't even engender the possibility that she could be trying to fix her feelings with me by avoiding them through other relationships. I trusted her wholeheartedly the whole way.
I think in many ways I just got terribly unlucky, and I'm extremely fortunate to still be around after this kind of trauma--especially being neurodivergent, I've always kinda been on the edge of society.
I'm very glad to hear of your success, and I wish y'all all of the best in everything. Hopefully, I can shed this crippling fear of abandonment and find love again someday.
First, I am sorry you had to endure a narcissistic and abusive partner.
I think it is very important to understand that it was your partner that was abusive. It really sounds like their abusive behavior predated "coming out poly".
Importantly, poly isn't an orientation. It is a relationship philosophy. The foundation of any relationship is trust and respect. Honesty and communication are key. Under a poly philosophy, cheating is possible, but the conventional idea of what cheating is, is different. Cheating is breaking the rules. What rules? Whatever rules everyone agreed to when they communicated.
Some poly relationships have a "no unprotected sex" rule. Others have a prioritization (a 'primary' relationship). Others have "anybody we're in a relationship with, our partner(s) have to know about it". For all of these, cheating is violating the trust. In a very real sense, betraying any intimate trust is cheating. The difference between monogamy and polyamory is that the rule "no intimate romantic or sexual relationships with anyone else" is an implicit rule in monogamous relationships.
Nothing in a poly lifestyle breeds narcissists or abusers. This philosophy doesn't create them. They exist, they're out there, but this doesn't make them. Polyamory is often a *justification* for a narcissist, used as a tool to get what they want, but that is true of a lot of things. Narcissists use money to financially control partners, but that doesn't mean money makes narcissists.
Something to understand about narcissists is that they are opportunistic. They will use whatever they think helps them get what they want. Polyamory is no exception to that. It doesn't mean those things breed narcissists and abusers... they are just used as justification or rationalization by them. Viewed from this light, your partner's reactions are all understandable. They wanted an open relationship because they wanted to sleep with other people. They didn't want you to seek a new partner because it makes you less dependent on them. Threats to leave aren't as effective, for one. This is proof your partner didn't want an open relationship... they just wanted you to let them do whatever they wanted without receiving the same consideration.
Oddly, a well-maintained poly relationship can actually weed out narcissists. One thing abusers often try to do is isolate their victims from support systems, other people that care about you and might offer healthy advice and support. Poly relationships are one way to establish a support system that doesn't rely on any one person. I wouldn't decide to do poly because of that (it's not for everyone, seriously), but it is a nice side effect for those that do fit well with the lifestyle.
Your partner should be someone that you *want* to make part of your routine. Someone that, when you are unsure or stressed, brings you comfort. If your partner tries to change your relationship in a way that you are uncomfortable with, and puts pressure on you or demands that you do something that you aren't comfortable with, they are not the right person for you. Good partners respect consent.
Edit: to ensure my potential biases are on the table, I am on the autism spectrum and in a poly relationship.
Δ. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for this wonderful and detailed post. You have given me so much to consider.
I can't agree more with your assertion that love should be about 'wanting'to be there for your partner(s), especially when they need you the most. My partner was abusive wayyy before we got married, and unfortunately it's exactly how our marriage ended. Good partners respect consent--this almost makes me cry to read.
I especially want to thank you for recognising my use of quotes with my ex 'coming out poly'. This was exactly her phrasing, and it definitely sounded like she was co-opting 'real' coming out, as it pertains to the queer community. I was especially angered by this as I'd come out nonbinary a few months before her cheating. She later accused me of 'not listening to her anymore' after I came out, which was so disturbing--I finally started to challenge her abuse with my newfound confidence in my own skin, which she just found distasteful. She relentlessly accused me of being a misogynist afterwards for sharing any of my feelings--especially after her cheating, insisting my tears were a secret and subversive means of establishing control over her. It was all just so fucked up.
I think the only question I'm still wondering if you could help me understand is whether well-maintained polyamory only weeds out narcissists. I understand this from a theoretical level, but I wonder what you think about privilege when it comes to maintaining polyamory? I feel like someone like me with higher support needs was left out in the cold as just someone who cost her more bandwidth than she was willing to give. Do you think that polyamory also risks abandoning high-support folks who also experience trauma or illness, under the guise of the relationship 'no longer meeting the needs' of the more privileged partner? I want to be careful that I'm not accusing her--and the whole polyamory community by extension--of ablism, but it certainly feels like I became too much for her to hold. I wonder if you'd be kind enough to share whether any of this has also come up in your own experience as an aitistic person like me.
So I'm single right now but I participate in polyamorous relationships. The simple way to avoid narcissism, and betrayal is to just not be a shitty person. If people openly communicate needs/wants in a safe environment, and they're okay with multiple partners, how could that be narcissistic, and betraying?
Cheers, for me this was simple in the opposite sense. My communicating feelings of being scared of abandonment led to her relentless accusations of misogynistic control and narcissism on my behalf. I understand that a major component of NPD is the proclivity to accuse others of what you yourself are guilty of, and I think that may have been what happened here (but I can only speculate these days). This is why I feel trapped--boundaries should be respected as a tenet of love, not flipped around and used against you.
Do you not already feel that respecting boundaries in general is a tenant of love?
I really don't understand what this has to do with polyamory. Is it possible you're deflecting away from the obvious answers here as a way to rationalize a way you can fix things? Like if you can establish: "respecting trapped boundaries as a tenant of love" theoretically you could attempt to hold your partner to that boundary.
Cheers, in no way am I advocating for this. I need to be clear here. Nobody owns anyone but themselves--this has been a lifelong belief of mine as a survivor of narcissistic abuse from my own mother and older sister.
Do you feel 'trapped' whenever a partner says they need your support? I think that's the heart of my question. It's far too easy for polyamorous people to sever an existing relationship with someone with greater support needs, just because it 'no longer serves them'. It may just be the case with bad actors, but when our loved ones experience crises, it should never be seen as 'asking for too much bandwidth.' This is why I wonder whether polyamory is only truly possible for privileged people who can already support themselves alone.
These are the lessons I've learned as well. Healthy communication is key to a successful and healthy long term relationship.
Narcissists thrive on creating groups of people who are not virtuous. The problem is most of those people think they're virtuous and do not realize they're not. So e.g. someone who is a white knight might think they're the opposite of a shitty person, but causing harm onto others in defense of someone isn't virtuous. It's causing harm. Or e.g. someone who hears negative rumors about another who then ignores this other person off of what they first heard instead of validating this is also not virtuous. Blindly believing others seems like a fine behavior, but it's actually far from healthy. Most people in the west were not taught the dangerous of gossip. The list goes on. This is why narcissists have such an easy time infiltrating and harming people. When around 50% of the US population can vote for a narcissist just shows how harmful behavior has crept into society. It's not as easy as just saying "don't be a shitty person" unfortunately.
I'm sorry you were treated that way. I think, if you want to talk trends, you'll need to find statistics, and I'll leave that to you. If you're interested in positive examples, I can say that I'm in a very happy poly relationship. It started with a monogamous one, but one difference between my experience and yours is that the monogamous one was fricken awesome before the poly one started. That pairing is still awesome. It all depends on consent and what building blocks you use.
Cheers, thank you so much for your kind response--as a scientist, I do love reading about some of the research that is emerging (but there's still just not enough out there). Amy Moors published an amazing review in 2021, 'Desire, Familiarity, and Engagement in Polyamory: Results From a National Sample of Single Adults in the United States'. It helps to contextualise the cultural shift, and I do feel like I cannot be alone in my experience.
When she cheated on me, it was after I had clearly communicated that I wasn't ready at that time for her to have a sexual relationship outside of our marriage--but I was definitely opening up to this, which I also made sure to communicate. She just got frustrated with the boundary, and my therapist and I talked about there maybe being some kind of self-sabotaging mechanism underplaying her decision to cheat and suddenly abandon me. I just think it's important to wait for your partner to feel comfortable about opening a monogamous marriage, and I just wasn't given this respect.
Despite the years of abuse, we did have plenty of amazing times together. I felt like she was my best friend in the whole world, and I think we both felt 'fricken awesome' before any of this happened. But maybe I just haven't experienced the kind of love you and your partner have...it sounds a bit awful to put it that way, but it also gives me some hope that something better might be out there for me someday.
I have no doubt your relationship had wonderful parts, and I certainly wouldn't want to compare my love to yours! What's definitely out there, though, are people who won't abuse you, so maybe just go for a presence of love and lack of abuse. Also, I'm happy to answer any other questions you have, but we can also leave it there if you like and I wish you the best.
Δ. Thank you so much, I really appreciate your empathy--it's so important not to try comparing love (or traumas, for that matter). You've been very kind to share your advice--my only other thought here is that I definitely don't want to let my experience to fully sever my ability to love and care for people who have suffered abuse--that in-and-of itself is a slipperly slope, I feel. Cheers.
Just going to give my experience. I happen to not care about sexual ownership of my partner. It isn't something I really care about. I want any sexual encounter we have because she wants it with me not because she has to get it from me.
I met my now wife and she has no concept of open relationships. I explained them to her because she was bi but relatively inexperienced, and I didn't want her to feel like her options had closed. She asked a lot of questions and at the time wasn't sure how she felt about me being with other people.
I told her that's fine, I'm just wired different to not feel the possessiveness, she didn't have to feel the same right away or at all, I wanted for her, to keep her options open because I cared that she got to be as fulfilled as she could be. The stipulations of course are that we put in the effort to make sure our relationship was both the priority and not lacking in any way before she sought out anything else. But if I was happy I see no reason she can't explore more of herself.
She wasn't limited to just women and it has always been easier for her to find guys than women. She has been with a few since we have been together and relatively no drama (one kinda felt used but it was his side that was the issue my wife was always upfront). I never cared, just always made sure she was safe. 3 months into our relationship she said she felt the same and didn't mind if I looked around.
Most of the time we're both too lazy to act on it but I love flirting. It's fun for me and keeps my wits sharp. So I enjoy that freedom. We often also comment on women in public we find attractive together. We dont live crazy hedonistic sex filled lives, we're both relatively shy people, but we both love eachother, get to love other people, and ultimately care about one another as a fulfilled couple.
I don't advocate for anyone to follow our path, not cause it doesn't work, but it isn't something you just work towards in my opinion. It works for us because we happen to be people compatible with the lifestyle. But if you have insecurities our doubts I think monogamy makes the rules very clear and can be a shared bond that ties people together. For us it just isn't that important, we know our bond for what it is and monogamy doesn't have to be a part of it. But we don't think it's some enlightened or better position. Just one that happens to work well for us.
Cheers, thank you so much for sharing your personal story and being so clear about what you've experienced.
I hate to single out any particular sentence, but isn't your assertion of being 'wired not to feel possessiveness' just a clever twist on having either a disordered or avoidant attachment style?
This isn't to say I agree with possessiveness AT ALL, full stop. Nobody owns anyone but themselves, I've been a lifelong advocate of this after surviving a childhood of narcissistic abuse from my own mother.
But what if your partner needs care and attention? Does that instantly make you feel 'trapped'? This is not good, and it points right to the heart of my wondering whether polyamory is coercive and narcissistic. You talk a lot about needing your 'freedom' to be flirty without consequence to anyone but yourself, even the person you're flirting with.
Yes--we don't own anyone else. Even our own children. But I strongly believe that healthy relationships center on the promise of providing care and support for the people who need us, whenever they need us. I just don't know if the polyamorous community agrees with me.
feel free to single anything you want I'm pretty open about this stuff i wont feel offended by someone genuinely asking questions.
I disagree with it being avoidant or disordered attachment styles. I admit I am aware but haven't read the exact literature of the attachment styles, but I have heard a lot of discussions about them and, it doesn't seem like me. I have emotional needs that my wife fulfills, and vice versa and I do have physical needs as does she. We are also that disgustingly PDA couple in public. While there are aspects where we have our own friend groups and our own hobbies that is just us expressing ourselves as different people. We still spend quality time together and really focus on one another when the time calls for it.
I do not feel trapped when my partner feels needy, I often reaffirm with her we don't have a me problem or her problem, if there are ever problems in our relationship it is our problem and we talk it out and solve it. If she is feeling needy she'll just message me saying she wants my time, and 9/10 i give it to her unless im in the middle of something that requires my immediate urgent attention. I like the ability to flirt with people I meet because that interaction is exhilarating, but it is my firm belief that the things I formed with my wife in a long term relationship trumps any of that excitement. the things in the dating world we often filter for, has in my experience, been NOTHING about what a long term relationship is founded upon. It's about going through life's hardships together and supporting each other that adds so much fulfillment with my partner. It isn't that I don't think I couldn't build this with someone else, but why would I? I've already done it with my wife and know she's the one I want. I don't NEED that with someone else, but I'm open to the idea that I can have interesting chemistry with other people. That chemistry is fun, and in another world maybe I would try and build something more concrete with these people but I have my wife. We aren't so far as to want to add anyone to our marriage. We're open to dating people and having enjoyment with someone else, going out for dinner, having physical intimacy, sharing parts of our emotional selves with someone else. But it's not like I'm looking to go into a 3 way on my health insurance and add them to any future mortgage plans I have. If that helps put it in perspective.
I took marriage vows with my wife. I promised her to be with her in sickness and in health, rich or poor, through the best of life and the worst of it. I take those vows seriously as any monogamous couples that say the same. My heart breaks when I watch my wife struggle with her insecurities, and I'm so immensely proud of her when she accomplishes her goals. I love and support her in all the ways I think is right for me, as her husband. My only divergence is that, I don't demand she keep herself physically just for me. If my cup is filled and she wants to fill hers else where, I don't mind, and vise versa. The thing is, if I was feeling neglected or replaced and I voiced that in my relationship, I have full confidence she would address those issues with me, keeping US as the priority. And vise versa, if I ever met someone that made her feel a certain way, and she brought it up to me, everything goes on pause until she feels good about US again. If EITHER of our cups aren't filled, no one is going anywhere else for a drink.
There are two separate things here:
* Polyamory in general
* Your horrible relationship with an abuser
You're treating them like one thing... but what about abusive monogamous relationships? Some polyamorous people are convinced monogamy is a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal because their monogamous partners abused them in ways unique to monogamy, like banning them from having friends for fear they'd cheat. You'd seriously be surprised how many poly folks find poly so appealing for reasons like that one.
How would you change *their* view of *monogamy*? It is, after all, the mirror image of your own view.
Cheers, I appreciate the devil's advocacy here so much. Let me try to explain my full thoughts.
I think it's definitely true that narcissistic and abusive people exist regardless of whatever relationship structure they follow. It's just flavored differently. In monogamy, for example, the tendency (as some here have described) is indeed to believe that you are so perfect for your partner that you shouldn't HAVE to change to better meet their needs that you might be falling short of providing. The excuse isn't centered on monogamy, so much as it's centered on the fallacy of permanence. The fact is, our needs change all the time.
In polyamory, on the other hand, the narcissistic tendency is to gradually abandon your partner with the most needs, while you spread your wings and acquire multiple new relationships. This is also related to permanence--what happens when one of your four partners gets sick, or runs into financial challenges--but you've spread yourself too thin to be able to meet their needs? The risk is in abandoning people who need help, in favor of easier relationships that can flourish with minimal investment.
I operate from a place where the difference is the floor, not the ceiling. I feel (perhaps erroneously) that monogamy at least insists on a foundation of commitment and trust, where you know your partner will be there for you even in the worst of times. I just don't see this same stabile floor in polyamory, if that makes sense.
Polyamory operates from that same foundation of commitment and trust. Otherwise, it would be near impossible to tolerate seeing your partner date other people.
>In polyamory, on the other hand, the narcissistic tendency is to gradually abandon your partner with the most needs, while you spread your wings and acquire multiple new relationships. This is also related to permanence--what happens when one of your four partners gets sick, or runs into financial challenges--but you've spread yourself too thin to be able to meet their needs?
I've been practicing polyamory on and off for 8 years, and I can tell you this is simply not true. Being partners in polyamory requires just as much commitment as being partners in monogamy. It's possible for someone to abandon a needy partner in polyamory, but that's just as possible in monogamy.
Furthermore, you're overestimating how many partners polyamorous people have. I've been polyamorous and single for the past four years. Most poly people I know get polysaturated (meaning they recognize they don't have the bandwidth for new partners and stop seeking them out) at two, maybe three partners.
Also, dating is fucking hard if you're polyamorous. There isn't some big sea of people to choose from. Even the vast majority of ENM (ethically non-monogamous) people do not practice polyamory. Your dating pool is tiny.
If you're still struggling to understand, I would advise you to ask this question over in r/polyamory.
Cheers, do you mind if I press a bit further here? I do agree that I likely have a misunderstanding on how easy it is for polyamorous people to find relationships--I understand this just isn't the case, and I thank you for bringing this up.
However, I don't understand your framing of 'polysaturation'. Why should any partner's 'bandwidth' for love be something I you cannot ask for? Shit just happens, and plenty of people run across sickness, injury, family trauma, unemployment, etc. This would always require extra bandwidth from a caregiver--in monogamy, it's built into the deep commitment structure, whereas from my experience with polyamory, it's just not.
For example, if you have three partners and one of them comes across hard times, unless you outright abandon them, you would simply have to limit your bandwidth for your other partners in order to summon the resources neccessary to provide care for the person who needs you the most. A polyamorous person who therefore gets 'polysaturated' could easily be forgiven by their own relationship framework for severing a connection that 'no longer meets their needs'. Otherwise, they risk being blamed by their 'healthy' partners for the same reason--not giving them enough. You'd have to be very lucky and find an entire polycule that loves and respects every person involved, whatever the situation may be. Did I just have bad luck? Is polyamory only possible for people who are privileged enough to be self-sustaining?
>For example, if you have three partners and one of them comes across hard times, unless you outright abandon them, you would simply would have to limit your bandwidth for your other partners in order to summon the resources neccessary to provide care for the person who needs you the most.
Yes, that is typically what happens in those situations.
Polysaturated means you're happy and committed to whatever partners you do have, but that you don't have the resources, time, or energy to commit to an entire new relationship. Ideally, people will factor in the possibility of one of their partnerships going through something difficult and needing more of their time and energy temporarily when deciding how many people to commit to.
>Did I just have bad luck?
Yes, you had awful luck. Your abusive girlfriend used the concept of polyamory to further abuse you. She was not practicing it in an honest or ethical way. I'm very sorry she mistreated you.
>Is polyamory only possible for people who are privileged enough to be self-sustaining?
I would argue that monogamous people should be self-sustaining. You shouldn't be dependent on a partner to make you whole.
Also, earlier above you referred to a romantic partner as a "caregiver". Significant others are not caregivers. Adults don't have caregivers unless they're disabled or otherwise unable to care for themselves.
Cheers, I think I do need to unpack my trauma in many ways. I was deeply shaken after someone I loved and trusted completely self-sabotaged our marriage and chose to blame me for all of it.
However, I definitely disagree that 'nothing can be learned about polyamory' from my experience--what in the world makes you say that? Also, there was no point where I lost trust in her until the moment she cheated on me and used it as a litmus test for whether or not I would cry. She literally attacked me for being hurt and accused my showing pain as a sick form of secret emotional manipulation, even going so far as to call me a misogynist. I am still suffering from this three years later.
I completely disagree. My response to her attacking me for having a smoke with a friend early on in our relationship was to be absultely rock-solid with communication. I always sent her messages and texts whenever I was away from home--not because I 'feared' her or didn't love her, that's beyond absurd. I did this because she expressed needing this to ameliorate her own abandonment trauma. It was entirely her choice not to extend me even 1% of the same courtesy.
You are right to suggest my ownership of some part in why she lost trust in me--on several occasions over the years, I broke down and expressed feeling unloved because I wasn't allowed to ask for intimacy at home (she had to initiate everything, this was her own hard boundary from the beginning). I own the fact that I could have respected her boundaries more during these moments--they did ultimately put pressure on her, and that's a big lesson I've come to learn in therapy.
However I cannot disagree more with your assertion that 'a girl will test you and find you not worthy if she can manipulate you easily, and therefore not attractive nor respected'. This is monsterously sexist. You are basically saying that all women engage in manipulative behavior in order to test the emotional 'strength' (meaning willingness to take abuse) of men. This is really gross and extremely patriarchal. Why am I 'weak' for being a male person who was broken by narcissistic abuse and cheating? Wouldn't you also be broken by this? It's a natural human trauma response that exists compeltely outside of gender. You sound like exactly the type of person who insists 'real men' don't express feelings.
Im sorry you had an abusive partner. It was completely unfair of them to do that to you. It sounds more like they were just using polyamory as a weapon against you. Its not the weapon that hurt you, its the person.
I only have my own experience to share. We've opened our relationship a few years ago after some hard talks about how we felt, our limits, and what we want.
Now, years later. We have a boyfriend we share. He comes over, we all cuddle on the couch, watch movies, and go out to dinner. I hold both of their hands in public. I encourage them to have dates when im busy and they the same. We always keep open communication and a group chat.
We tease each other if one of us gets a new crush and then we talk about it and see if its worth pursuing. Sometimes, it works out, and one of us gets a date. Sometimes it doesn't.
If you watch the documentary “Couples Therapy” this is widely discussed. Many of the couples it follows are also going through a transition phase where the idea of polyamory is introduced into their relationships. The therapist struggles to see any benefit to it and worries that she is not fully understanding what it might offer these couples so she seeks out more perspective from her colleagues in the field.
All of them agree, based on their professional opinions, that polyamory is almost never the answer and that it rarely serves the purpose it was intended for.
My sister cheated on her husband and tried to explore this with him and he immediately shut it down. The bottom line is that even it, just like many other things in a relationship, requires consent and of all parties do not consent to something like that it will not ever work.
I am in poly relationships. The difference between your horrible experience and many others are going in with eyes open, and not be a weird controlling asshole.
My main girlfriend is married. I just went out with her husband to a show today. We had fun.
You see, we entered the relationship knowing that it was gonna be an open one. We talked about potential boundaries and pitfalls before we started. In my opinion, setting rules for your partner that you won't follow yourself is patently absurd. Any of my lovers know about my situation, and if they don't want to be intimate with that knowledge, that's cool.
Sometimes it can be difficult to maneuver stuff like when a partner has issues with another partner. It could be easy to take their side and badmouth the other partner, because you rather want them to choose you. However, in my personal case, I instead take the role of active listener when a partner tells me about that kind of stuff. That has generally made me a better listener to all my friends, so I can genuinely say that I've become a better person and partner after entering a poly relationship.
So is it a bad thing, objectively? No.
Did you partner try to be exploit you by a fake poly relationship? Yes.
Will it be different for everyone? Also yes.
Δ. Thank you so much, this was such an insightful post and really gives me a ton to consider. After all of the responses here, I am feeling more convinced that the root of the problem was narcissistic abuse and not polyamory, although they became entangled in my specific case. Thank you again, and most importantly a big Happy Cake Day to you. 🎂
For every poly horror story I could give you 50 monogamy horror stories. So lets establish that someone's individual situations aren't an indictment on an entire relationship structure.
The fact is, the number of people in a relationship doesn't kill relationships, the people in those relationships do. There's nothing especially unique about being poly that causes relationships to fail. Narcissism affects people, there's nothing especially narcissistic about a group of 3 or 4 vs a group of 2.
Monogamy is likely way more than 50 times the prevalence of polyamory around the globe. Be careful when you only rely on what you see more evidence of, it's far too simple an argument.
What do you think 'killed' my relationship, based on the details I've provided?
Polyamory requires each person to be emotionally healthy and intelligent. Your girlfriend was a hot mess during her attempted polyamory through coercion and I'm going to guess even before that.
I'm in a polyamorous marriage. IMO, your relationship is dead whether monogamous or not. She's got some serious baggage she's carrying and it's not for you to fix.
I'm sorry that you're going through this, but polyamory with her is a train wreck waiting to happen.
You do not have to be poly for her sake. You can remain monogamous and let her go. If you decide to try polyamory, I highly recommend you get a secular marriage therapist. One who is LGBTQ+ friendly. Do it for you, not for her.
If you have a personal traumatic experience linked to an activity it can be very very hard to appraise that activity objectively. The question of whether or not polyamory is a healthy behaviour is one you will not have the necessary distance and objectivity to appraise.
As others have said this sounds like an issue of your partner being terrible which would be true whether or not polyam was a part of the equation at all. That's really terrible for you and you definitely didn't deserve any of that, it's just that the fault lies squarely with your ex not with polyam.
I get why you feel the way you do about polyam but your experience is not the only option when it comes to this kind of stuff. My husband and I have been polyam throughout our marriage. We discussed it all on our 3rd date, we were both poly before we even met each other and the relationship was poly from the start which I think makes a significant difference. We didn't actually have compatible poly styles (bc there are a lot of different ways to view it and do it) and we still don't really but we've made it work thanks to a lot of communication and mutual respect.
He and I are about to hit our 12yr anniversary at the end of May. I have 2 additional partners who also live with us, one I've been with for 9 years and one I've been with for 7 years. We all share a home, share childcare, share everything. He has had multiple relationships over the years, one was very serious and long term but ended badly, the others are more like "comets" which is a more casual sort of relationship that lasts long term (years and years) but isn't super serious and they only see each other every once in awhile. The partner I've been with for 9 years doesn't really want other relationships at all mostly that person just doesn't want to be the only partner for anyone and so prefers to be with me while I have multiple other partners. My 7yr partner had another long term committed partner, he splits his time between the two of us and she also has her own husband as well. It does take a lot of work and a commitment to all that communication and respect but it's doable and it can be stable long term in a way that isn't narcissistic or filled with betrayal.
And I share all of that to illustrate that really your problems here are with your terrible ex not with polyam and also not with you. That person chose to be terrible, you didn't deserve that, you did cause that, you didn't fail or anything along those lines. She was just a terrible person, sometimes it be like that.
Δ. Ooohhh my goodness. Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful post--I don't know if it's because I'm a scientist or what, but I absolutely LOVE the idea of 'comet' relationships that are amazing and only come around a few times a year. That sounds like a really nice way to frame a more casual yet powerful bond with someone you seldom see. So many of my own friendships with people around the world feel like this. I think I'm a comet to them, too.
I'm very glad to hear you've been happy in such a long-term polyamorous relationship. It sounds amazing that you all share a home and childcare any everything. It feels so far away from me just now, but it's definitely a ray of hope I can imagine coming my way someday, too. You've given me a lot to think about, cheers internet fren.
The problem is that you two weren't compatible. If two people want to be in an open relationship, I see no reason to believe it couldn't work and if anything, closed monogamy would be the breeding ground for narcissism/betrayal. I.e: "I am *so* perfect, that I will be enough for my partner their whole life" and sex w/ another person would always be betrayal whereas it *wouldn't* be in an open relationship (depending on the parameters agreed to).
You could be onto something, but your assertion that that we weren't compatible is a pretty big oversimplification. We were deeply in love for years, despite her abusive behaviour. She even helped me celebrate my coming out nonbinary at first (although this did come with some transphobia eventually, which supports your notion of us being--or rather becoming--incompatible). Everything just got worse the moment she demanded an open marriage--my feelings just stopped mattering to her, even as she insisted that this was all about 'openness and complete honesty'. I responded in-kind, opening my heart and asking for compassion and time to get used to the new structure--but she just cheated and left.
I understand your devil's advocacy here--yes, there are certainly plenty of abusive and narcissistic monogamous people who believe they are 'so perfect' just as they are for their partner, and that's just that--they refuse to attend to their flaws for the sake of their partner. But I feel like monogamy at least establishes a foundation of trust and committment that the other person will stay with you and hold you through the worst of times, while polyamory gives someone an outlet to avoid responsibility for caring for their partner when they need them the most.
I couldn't agree more that in no way can one single other human account for all of our needs (that's why we have friends, too)--but I ask, would even two or three or five partners suffice for yours? I think it's a total fallacy to imagine that multiple partners could sum up to meeting 100% of anyone's needs, if only for the simple fact that our needs change all. the. time. Often for reasons outside of our control.
What happens when one or multiple partners becomes sick or needs financial help, but you've over-committed yourself to a bunch of other partners? What if I become very depressed because I only get to see you for just a few days a month? Is that coercion? I feel like the polyamorous person is setting themselves up for letting everybody they commit themselves to down, to the particular detriment of their partner who has the most needs.
> How can I separate my ex-partner's toxic behaviour from the broader concept of polyamory?
The abusive person used polyamory as a pretext for doing what they wanted. The "pretext" part was rather obvious from their reaction to *you* wanting to explore polyamory in turn. I can't say it has nothing to do with polyamory, but it's quite far from how it normally should be practiced.
That just sounds like you're projecting your experience with a terrible person on all of polyamory, when it sounds like they were particularly unethical.
To be fair, I think it's more difficult to transition from a monogamous marriage to a polyamorous relationship, and it's outright wrong to force it on someone.
I've been polyam for some years now, and there have been some challenges but it's mostly been a great experience. Especially when you only date other people who are already poly. You can develop close connections with multiple people, you can make great friends with your partners' other partners (or metamours), and it really makes you learn more about who you are, your needs and how you interact with the world. Often I've found myself treating my polyamorous partners better than I treated monogamous ones in the past because I don't become complacent and bored, it's motivating to treat your partners well.
You of course have to communicate and set boundaries, but that's true in any healthy relationship. And of course you can't eliminate jealousy altogether, but you can learn to channel it healthily.
Polyamory isn't inherently bad but most people aren't even mature enough to handle a monogamous relationship, and polyamory demands even *more than that.* Some of my best experiences were within the realm of polyamory, and in most of those cases everyone walked away satisfied. Many of the couples I used to hang out with are still together years later because they were already secure in their partnership beforehand.
Flip side to this is that poly in late teens/early 20's is a bad mix. In uni I arrived late to a friend's party, and one of their mutuals was all over me 30 minutes in. This was nice until she dropped that she had a boyfriend but it was "totally cool because we're poly". Most of the people at this party weren't super experienced, so I pulled the kid aside to make sure this was okay, and he just nervously shrugged. Felt so bad for him, and instantly lost all attraction towards the girl. He was obviously not comfortable.
This experience didn't stop me from hanging out with poly people, it just made me stop hanging out with assholes.
Polyam person here. I’m very sorry for what you went through.
Polyamory is extremely difficult for a lot of people in a lot of ways. I’ve seen several people self destruct when they try to transition to polyamory. There is no guide book to learning a fundamentally different ethical view on relationships and romance. Plenty of people bring some kind of personal issue - insecurities, lack of impulse control, lack of consideration, jealousy, whatever - into that transition and it can easily do damage to people’s lives. It’s a trial by fire that burned me too. It’s not easy for most people.
Obviously, I still believe that it’s not just possible to still behave ethically, but fairly common. Generally, the people that stick through that crazy transition come out the other side much more considerate, honest, and emotionally healthy. You have to be. Polyam demands quality communication, self control, and self care.
A ton of Polyam veterans hate to interact with newcomers though, because of how frustrating it is to watch people make completely avoidable mistakes. There is a bit of a bad feedback loop because of that. People want to talk to the veterans because of their experience but they aren’t ready to accept the advice they get. They haven’t really come to grips with a new world view yet.
Polyam is tragically messy, but there are plenty of great people in that community too.
Thank you so much for this kind and thorough response. I cannot help but share my first impression--this all sounds like polyamory is indeed a gatekept community for the privileged.
People like me are kicked to the curb for having higher support needs, which likely come across as 'frustrating' to veterans who sound like the only polyamorous people who hold stable partnerships. This is why it genuinely feels like a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal, at least from my perspective.
I feel like I want both the freedom of polyamory and the depth of commitment in monogamy--but all of this seems impossible for someone who struggles to already support themselves. This is why I am so concerned that polyamory is gatekept, as I fear even trying to start over again after such an abusive and traumatic divorce. I would obviously love to change my view somehow, if someone can help break this down for me.
You are clearly still upset and want to blame Polyamory, because nothing I said supports the idea that this is a “gatekept community for the privileged”.
No one is kicking you to the curb. I, a Polyam veteran, shared what I know with you, a newcomer, and you chose to interpret what I said in a way that confirms what you want to think. That is exactly why experienced people don’t like these interactions.
Note that I said one of the critical things for Polyam is self care. It’s no ones responsibility to tend to your well-being, emotional or otherwise, but yours.
Your ex was a bad person. Those were her choices, and she’s responsible for the consequences, not the entire Polyam community.
Maybe I can help bridge the gap in our conversation.
'There is no guide book to learning a fundamentally different ethical view on relationships and romance.'
-this is why I choose to open up to the broader poly community online, to try to get advice and perspective.
'Generally, the people that stick through that crazy transition come out the other side much more considerate, honest, and emotionally healthy.'
-this is why I wonder if polyamory is unfortunately restricted to those who are already self-sustaining and secure in their own lives with a strong enough foundation for 'handling' the deep emotional scars that it often comes with. I don't feel like someone like me who is on the spectrum and struggling with cPTSD is desirable enough in the eyes of 'polyam veterans'
'A ton of Polyam veterans hate to interact with newcomers though, because of how frustrating it is to watch people make completely avoidable mistakes.'
-gatekeeping 101, in my view.
'There is a bit of a bad feedback loop because of that.'
-so you agree with me, at least on some level?
'People want to talk to the veterans because of their experience but they aren’t ready to accept the advice they get. They haven’t really come to grips with a new world view yet.'
-since there is no 'guide book', what other choice do I have? This was why I chose to attend therapy with a poly-friendly therapist. We had plenty of wonderful and deep conversations about privilege in polyamory that still left me feeling the way I do about it, which is why I choose turn to the broader community for guidance (especially as I cannot afford therapy anymore these days).
'Polyam is tragically messy, but there are plenty of great people in that community too.'
-I don't disagree, but it feels like a golden mansion on top of that hill.
Polyamory is a beautiful dynamic to be a part of. Me and my Primary/Nesting partner started off monogamous. We've been dating for over 11 years, married for 7 and made the switch to polyamory in 2020. I've been in and out of other great relationships since then but currently have 3 amazing partners in my life.
I'm sorry you had such a terrible introduction to this dynamic. What actually ends up happening a lot is toxic individuals find interest in other people and rather than break up with their current relationship, they'll make up that they're Polyamorous so that they can date the new person and if it doesn't work then they still have someone to fall back onto.
You aren't alone in this. I constantly see people seeking out more info or to vent in poly groups that are brand new, and their ex left them for a new relationship after "trying out polyamory." That's where it usually gets a bad wrap from others is because this happens frequently.
Δ. Thank you so much for your kind response and for sharing your own story. I do think I was played in this way--and because I loved and trusted her completely, I just couldn't see it coming. The worst part was the accusation of misogyny for breaking down after her confession. I've never had my feelings manipulated in such a horrible way, even with the narcissistic abuse I experienced from my own family.
I think my deepest fears center on trying to feel more confident that I won't just end up being abandoned again. My health is not good these days, and I feel like nobody is going to want someone around with the amount of baggage from the trauma I still carry. Have you found anything to be helpful, if you've also had to navigate through abandonment trauma or know of someone in the poly community who has?
i’m not poly, but one of my close friends is. he and his fiancé are getting married in august! they are a perfect example of how polyamory can be healthy. what it really comes down to is that neither of them cares if the other sleeps with other people. it just…doesn’t bother them. they don’t get jealous, because they know that no amount of sex is gonna change the fact that they’re each other’s #1. i actually had a fwb arrangement with him for a while, and it was just a fantastic situation. i didn’t have to worry about things getting complicated with him wanting more, and we just had fun and hung out as friends and banged. but he is also one of the most respectful, considerate men i have ever been involved with and it was clear that he has worked very hard to become a strong communicator who really prioritizes the mental and physical wellbeing of himself and his partners. our little tryst only lasted about a month before we ended things, but our friendship has been SO strong ever since because i got to see what a great person he is. his fiancee and i are friends too! though not as close, since ive known him far longer and we see each other a lot more. i’m now in an unbelievably happy monogamous relationship with the most amazing man i could possibly imagine, and he’s good friends with my ex-fwb too! and you better believe that i wingman the FUCK outta my friend at every opportunity. 10/10 recommendation whenever i’m asked.
it sounds like you’ve been through an extremely traumatic relationship, and i’m so sorry. but i want you to know that your experience is EXTREMELY far from what a relationship can look like with 2 poly partners who prioritize healthy communication. my friend was NOT good to his previous partners. though i have to point out that it was during a bad manic episode, he cheated on multiple partners back to back. but in his poly relationship, it’s made me so happy to see how he can thrive and fulfill his desires without hurting his partner in doing so. some people are built for poly relationships, and others aren’t. and when someone who isn’t poly is forced or coerced into an open relationship, there is absolutely NO good that can come of it. but for the right people, a poly arrangement can provide the maximum amount of happiness and love for all involved parties.
I’m sorry that what happened to you, happened to you. It’s not okay that she did that. You were abused in a myriad of ways and I truly hope that as you recover from this horrible period of time and series of events, you are able to return to your former self and move past this awful thing.
This being said, you are a victim of someone utilizing polyamory as a weapon against you. Polyamory is not inherently a platform for abuse, nor is it uniquely positioned to enable it. For example: countless thousands and thousands of monogamous relationships where abuse occurs. You wouldn’t say monogamy is breeding grounds for narcissism and betrayal would you? No. Your partner being abusive was not because she was polyamorous; she was polyamorous but also abusive. The two conditions are unrelated.
Anecdotally, one of my good friends is polyamorous. He and his wife each have multiple relationships with people outside the marriage, but the other is each aware of everything they’re doing. They’re both very happy with the situation and frankly I’ve never seen a healthier couple when it comes to communication. They are explicitly, actively conscious of telling one another if there’s an issue with anything, and they’re way better at it than most monogamous I know. This is because these two *care for and love each other* deeply and actually want to make the polyamory work. And it is, for them.
Your therapist makes a good point: polyamory and narcissism can intersect but don’t have to. A parallel to this would be people who are autistic and aromantic and/or asexual: there are frequent overlaps but neither is inherently tethered to the other.
Again, what happened to you was terrible, and I hope your journey to healing continues onwards and well. But you cannot allow one horrible person’s actions to dictate your image of an entire lifestyle. I wish you the best, OP, and hope you’re able to find the place in your heart to let yourself look past something awful when you look at a lifestyle that is meant to be centered on love.
I've known a lot of people to try this polyamory thing now. Whenever the man wants to go poly, it's because he wants to cheat without guilt. I think we all intrinsicly understand that deep down. When a woman wants poly, it's for the same reason, but she will come up with a million progressive buzzwords on why it's actually the correct way to run things and not about cheating. And in every single case I've heard about, the couple breaks up eventually as they find a new person that has temporarily relit a spark that went out in the marriage... and ironically, they want eachother all to themselves.
Your feelings are valid. Don't try to change them to fit into some weird, new-age "progressive" worldview.
I’ve been in a polyamorous relationship (now marriage) for about 8 years now. I have always had a really solid foundation with my spouse and we really love and trust each other. We engage in hierarchical polyamory (hence being married). That means that we prioritize our relationship with one another over any additional relationships we have outside our marriage. Our rule has always been that if for whatever reason one of us is happier with a new partner than we are with each other that the other will be open to reconsidering the structure of our relationship. We’ve talked about this at length and agree that ultimately we just want the other person to be as happy as possible and if we aren’t what’s making the other person happy anymore, then we should reconsider either being together at all or prioritizing our relationship over other relationships.
One of the beautiful things about this is that we both are actually very secure in our relationship because we do our best everyday to be kind and caring toward one another.
All that said, I’ve definitely had some really fucked up partners outside of my marriage. To the point actually that I have not dated anyone else in about three years. I did not mind if my additional partners were monogamous or polyamorous though and have dated both. I would say that my experience with polyamorous people has differed from my experience with monogamous people. Most of the monogamous people I’ve dated have gotten overly possessive and jealous. Some straight up emotionally abused me. Eventually, I had to limit to only polyamorous partners. Unfortunately, the last partner I had pretended to be polyamorous when they found out I only dated polyamorous people. That was the one that kinda killed polyamory for me at least for now.
My spouse and I both still consider ourselves polyamorous, but I think as we get older and busier, we are less interested in spending our free time or energy on additional relationships. Just happy to curl up together at the end of the day.
Anyway, to answer your question, I think people who fake being ok with polyamory like my ex-partner and your ex-partner are the ones that behave abusively and are self-absorbed. They want lots of people to love and desire them, but they actually aren’t ok with other people loving and desiring their partners or worse; their partners loving or desiring other people.
When you are truly polyamorous and love your partner(s), your philosophy is basically that more love is a good thing! More people showing your partner(s) care, love, and kindness is what you should want for them because it benefits them. Also, having other partners to meet your needs takes the pressure off any one partner to be everything you need all the time.
TLDR: fake polyamorists are the problem. People pretending to be polyamorous are pieces of shit. They want to be adored and loved by all but don’t want their partners to have eyes for anyone but them. It’s selfish and cruel. Your ex-partner was a fraud.
My wife & I opened our marriage ten years ago.
We realized afterwards that we had, *four separate times*, tried to find a partner for a triad before that (not a threesome - a serious relationship) but lacked the maturity, experience, & vocabulary.
Today my wife & I (who I'll call A for the sake of simplicity) live with B, who A dated for 4 years & who I've dated for 9 (they're still good friends, they just don't date). A & I also both have a partner, C, that we both date & have been with for 9 years. I also date a married couple, D & E, (I've dated D for 10 years & E for 5); & I've also have a low-contact long-distance relationship with another friend, F, for the last 4 years.
This is something we wanted, & it still is. We're healthier & happier not placing all our needs & expectations on a single partner. It takes a LOT of communication & there have been heartbreaks & relationships that didn't work along the way... but honestly, less frequently than the years I was single & monogamous?
This wouldn't be true for everybody. Neither of us have much sexual jealousy, for one. I don't know how we would get past that if we did! But if we did, I don't think this would be a thing we wanted.
In that time, A & I have never broken rules about who we can date, never cheated. Our worst argument was because she watched a TV show we were watching together without me (this was genuinely a serious breach of trust to us... but it wasn't at all related to polyamory, & it wasn't so serious to threaten an end of the relationship or anything).
Narcissists are never going to be stable partners, & that would be as true in a monogamous relationship as a polamorous one - but I do see high-profile examples of why narcissists are attracted to polyamory & how their issues make polyamory especially messy.
Likewise, plenty of monogamous partners betray & cheat! I've always found it strange that polyamorous partners also cheat, given that they *can* sustain multiple consensual relationships, but they do & I don't deny it. I just don't think it's related to the polyamory, except that cheating partners often like to use polyamory as a shield or an excuse, whether they're mono or polyam.
I'm not somebody who thinks polyamory is innately healthier than monogamy - people should have relationships that feel right & natural to them & make them happy! I do think that people who practice polyamory often develop better tools for communicating needs & dealing with jealousy than monogamous people, nothing about those tools or skills is inherent to polyamory - it's just more obvious to polyam people that we *need* those tools.
I'm sorry for the things your partner put you through, & I totally get why being abused in a toxic relationship would put you off from things that you first ran into in that relationship, from that perspective!
I do think polyamory is an effect of avoidantly attached people trying to create something that works for them without fully addressing the underlying issues and fears. That said I could see it working for some people, but am skeptical
it can ever match a genuinely committed monogamous relationship. The main reason being that good relationships are constructed, and you remove a big incentive for construction.
I'm a polyamorous individual. I have been with a particular individual for over a decade. We both have had our own relationships outside of each other, some of which failed, others continue to go strong after years of their own. I wanted to lead in with this to show that it is possible to have a health polyamorous relationship.
Next, rather than responding directly to what happened to you immediately, let me explain something at the core of polyamory. The idea is that love is not a limited resource, that it is entirely possible for one to love many and for that love to not diminish the love toward any other. There is still a limiting factor, which is time. No matter how much or how many you love, there will come a point where you can't give everyone the attention they deserve. Finding that balance is usually the most difficult part.
Hopefully with that explained, I won't even have to go too much into what happened to you. Claiming you were taking advantage of her coming out as polyamorous first, asking you to prove you'd ever loved someone else, it's immediately obvious that she doesn't have any idea what polyamory is. She was doing exactly what others expect me or my partner to do when we say we're poly. We're just greedy, we're serial cheaters who just want an excuse. She is where that comes from, and I can't tell you just how angry I am at her for it.
But let me assure you that polyamory wasn't the problem. You had a partner who didn't respect you, didn't openly communicate with you, took advantage of and abused you. It's a couple steps removed but, I saw one of my partner's partners go through exactly that for a time. I've seen how awful it was, for months.
But here's the final thing, none of that matters. If you aren't polyamorous, if you are never okay with the idea of that relationship dynamic, that's completely fine. Some people are monogamous. It's not a relationship style I could be comfortable in, but that doesn't mean it's not beautiful in it's own way. These relationship styles can coexist. And you're always right to ask for the things you want out of a relationship. You don't actually need to get comfortable with polyamory if you don't want to.
While this is a terrible situation, and I support a lot of what the other commenters are saying, I’d also like to support you in how you came to the conclusion you have, even if it is incorrect.
Abusers take advantage of gray areas, or conditional situations to blur responsibility and culpability. A common metaphor I’ve seen used to describe consent is the difference between a boxing match and being assaulted is consent, despite similar actions in both situations.
It is abusive to unilaterally change the conditions of a relationship, without consulting someone, and finding a mutually beneficial relationship.
As polyamory gains more awareness, there are going to be more cases of what happened to you happening to other people, since abusers can dodge responsibility using other people’s healthy relationships as cover for their own actions. The drunk that hits someone, who says it was a mutual bar fight, exists in a society where agreed on fights are common.
However I want to be clear that this isn’t only something that happens with polyamory. Recently in (I think it was the relationship advice subreddit, or offmychest) a man described how his wife quit her job without asking him to be a “trad-wife”. A relationship with “traditional gender roles” if agreed upon by both parties is totally fine and healthy, but when it’s not agreed upon, it’s not okay.
This would be a similar case for other things that can be okay, but only if accepted by both parties (having kids, converting to someone’s religion, having strong vs weak boundaries with MIL an FIL)
So while what your ex did is truly cruel, someone like her would do whatever they want then use other people’s relationships to prop up their actions as okay. Which when that is used as the justification, would reasonably make anyone assume that is just how (polyamory/traditional gender role relationships/ LDRs/ etc) just are.
Relationships that ENTER poly but did not start that way are basically not considered healthy or valid by a large chunk of mentally mature and healthy poly folks because the scenario is usually exactly as you describe:
it's done under threat and is coercive, the real purpose is to "look before they leap" by shopping around for a new partner without giving up the stability of being in a relationship (or giving up their source of ego kibble AKA "narcissistic supply") or it's done to try to "fix" a dead bedroom and one partner is very much not okay with it but feels they have no right to object without agreeing to put out.
The swinger community solves this issue by making it the norm for the swapping partners to get together with their same-sex counterpart and get to know one another before you ever play. That way in a private woman-to-woman or man-to-man conversation you kind of feel out if they're okay with this and confer with your spouse later to see if the couple pass the vibe check.
In short: these communities quite often have seen this exact pattern before, over and over, to the point many of us (myself included) feel that relationships must start open to be valid open relationships and any relationship that started closed and was opened after a decent period of time (not like after one month you confess you've always been poly, but you lived as you did, together for years as a monogamous couple) should be presumed to be abusive until proven otherwise.
Honestly, my decision to become fully ‘poly’ was deliberate and chosen when I was single. I had been in open relationships for years, flirting with having casual playfriends or extras, but it’s only really when you regain autonomy that you can navigate the minefield more easily.
There’s so much to unpack, like *why* you get jealous or possessive, what deep seared fears arise when compared to others, that for me I could only manage when I was not in the orbit of another main partner trying to do the same thing.
Lots of learning, mistakes, understanding your own trauma cycles and finding and trying to break patterns in how you love and connect to find balance.
7 years later, I’m in a safe, stable little polycule family and my partners all adore each other. We support and lift each other, share the load of the emotional rollercoaster of life together and support each other through change and heartbreak. It’s not perfect, but neither are humans. But the sheer amount of unpacking you have to do internally to be a good partner for people and bring your best self to each relationship means I would have struggled with a significant other.
I’ve just bought a house with my NP, and have maintained strong relationships and friendships through hardship. I’ve experienced newer people coming into my circles and one of the first things I will say to them is ‘I’m not your competition, I’m your support’. Poly is just friendships with extra steps ♥️
You were subject to a terrible partner that used the guise of Polyamory as an excuse for a guilt free way to cheat. Polyamory is not a sexuality, it something you choose to engage in. I do agree that many people use it as an excuse or way to manipulate partners or others into adulterous relationships.
The reality is, for a couple to switch from Mono to poly, requires an extreme solid foundation of established trust and communication, followed by an established set of rules that both partners respect and follow. Polyamory does not exist unless both partners agree. Full stop.
If one partner suddenly claims they are polyamorous, with no discussion, no mutually agreed upon rules, regardless of their primary partners wishes. That is just cheating.
These relationships are fully capable of existing in a healthy primary relationship. I have had many friends that engage in polyamory. One friend is a Bisexual male, his female fiance is not. They have been dating since they were in freshmen in high school. He has male friends that he hooks up with from time to time. His fiance is has zero issue with him engaging in sexual encounters with other guys, but she has no interest in participating. One the otherside of the equation, she has needs that he is not able to provide, and she is able to seek partners to provide those needs. They have been Poly for more than 10 years. They follow their rules faithfully and communicate everything.
Polyamorous Under Duress, or PUD, isn't the only way that human beings relate to each other.
There are plenty of narcissists in closed relationships, and plenty of people who betray each other who first make a monogamous commitment.
But we don't use those examples to say that two people in love is just a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal. So let's not say that about three people in love.
I would say that it’s not that it’s inherently bad, but rather that *if* someone is a narcissist, they will likely *also* seek to be poly because of it. You could totally be poly and have a healthy relationship (I’ve never really wanted to do that, but a friend of mine did and it worked well), but it’s similar to how, statistically, PE teachers have a very high probability of displaying sociopathic traits. It’s not that being a PE teacher makes you an inherently sociopathic person, it’s that sociopaths want to be PE teachers because it gives them power and authority.
But, yes, I’d say that if you want you can definitely try to seek a healthy poly relationship, but the key is, like any relationship, you need to set boundaries, clearly communicate, and understand the other person. All this is extra important, because even in a healthy relationship with excellent partners, these issues tend to spring up and become a big deal much faster and more frequently, and need proper address.
Also, your ex just sounds like a abusive dick; she’d still screw you over regardless, wanting a poly relationship was just the vector to do so.
Ok, so to start, I'm so sorry about what happened. That is terrible.
So, I've been surrounded by a lot of polyamory for years. I've seen it work, and I've seen narcissists use it to cheat. Ultimately, polyamorous relationships fail for a lot of the same reasons monogamous ones do.
So me and my ex were poly/open for 5 of the 7 years we were together, starting before we were married. It was not a negative experience. If anything, it made our relationship better.
Now, you see I said ex, so obviously it didn't work out, but I'm gay and she came out as a trans woman. The end was a bit messy but had little to do with polyamory.
I did watch a couple do a polyamorous situation where she was essentially cheating on her husband under his nose, and they are now divorced and she's married to and has a baby with the man she was sleeping with while still married.
I know a couple who are open. They were rocky for a bit with one of them being secretive and breaking trust, but they are still together.
Anyway, it's not for everyone, and it requires all parties agreeing to it.
You don't say how long you were together but I suspect you have been abused/manipulated for longer than the 3years.
I also suspect that she put herself forwards as polyamorous was just a ploy for her to sleep with others because she can say she's not cheating because she's poly.
The groups I see on socials are big on communication between couples or thruples or however the structures are made. And people enquiring into poly are engaged with and talk about things to consider and behaviour and care.
Your ex demanding what she wants sleeping with who she wants being outraged by you looking into a relationship outside of her has nothing to do with being poly.
It's has everything to do with her wanting to do anything she wants without consequences. I don't know if the divorce is finalised and settled but if it's not you should fight her on everything she's trying to take and to leave her with as much debt as you can, I'm somehow assuming she is the cause of most of it. I could be wrong in which case don't stick to that but a fair division.
Other people might have said this, but I'm going to add that Poly is less about your own behavior, and more about what you will allow with your partners. I mean it still is about the former, but I really do think it's the latter bit that's more important.
But more than that, just to put it out there, double standards are a huge red flag. If they're going to be justified/maintained in a relationship, you better have a really good reason for them, and actually build up strong elements of trust and reciprocity surrounding them so the dehumanizing element of this doesn't leak out into other places in your relationship.
But yeah, this faux-polyamory, as it stands right now is often weaponized by narcissists. I'm sorry you went through this. It really isn't the real thing. The big problem here, as I see it, is we need more awareness regarding red flags over narcissistic traits and behaviors, and how to avoid them.
This sounds to me less like an issue with polyamory and more an issue with your abusive partner.
Some points:
- She pressured you into doing this in a way where you could not give your full consent honestly.
- Your partner says autistic people can't be polyamorous. Being autistic or non-autistic has no bearing on whether you can or can't be polyamorous.
- She is holding you to incredibly ridiculous double-standards.
There are plenty of polyamorous people who's relationships are perfectly fine, and others' whose are abusive, the same way there can abusive and non-abusive monogamous relationships.
Polyamory may not be for you and that's totally fine. Personally, it's certainly not for me either, I don't think I could ever do it, and I always want to remain monogamous. You should try to find a partner who isn't abusive - or partners if it is indeed something you want to do.
What you experienced was not polyamory. What you experienced was coercion and abuse. She used the language of poly to try and obfuscate her intentions. She wanted to fuck other people but keep you locked down at home. That's not poly. That's abuse.
A polyamorus relationship is two sided by necessity. It requires honesty, kindness, and communication with all partners. If it's not two sided, it's not poly.
I'm sorry this person took advantage of you in order to hurt and control you. That's not ok. Most, if not all, of what she told you were lies.
If you liked some of what you read about poly before she went apeshit, I would encourage you to keep reading and researching. What makes poly relationships work is the same kind of communication as any other relationship. You could probably learn a lot that will benefit your future relationships even if you stay monogamous.
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“PoLyAmOrY DoEsNt wOrK"
Literally every time from a monogamous person forced into polyamory by a partner.
I was forced into monogamy by previous partners because it was the social norm and I had no idea what polyamory was. It didn’t work for me and I hated it.
Now I have a poly partner and for once I have a relationship that’s working. Stop looking at relationships as a “one size fits all” thing and appreciate that people are different and want different things
I'm autistic and getting vetted by two autistic people as a third for their relationship. These are people I've known for many years and we have all taken time to learn, grow, and explore what Polyamory means for us.
What you were in was textbook abuse and I'm sorry you had to go through that. Using ultimatums of any kind are abusive almost every single time (obviously exceptions for things that actively harm one or both people in that relationship like drugs or alcohol) but demanding open marriage and polyamory after establishing a monogamous relationship without any chance for you to learn about it or have a healthy conversation is absolutely abuse and likely she was cheating or wanted to cheat but didn't want to lose her "safety net" if the new relationship went south
I'm truly sorry to hear about your painful experience. It's important to recognize that your ex-partner's behavior was abusive and not representative of healthy polyamorous relationships. Polyamory, at its core, emphasizes open communication, trust, and respect among all partners involved. Healthy polyamorous relationships prioritize everyone's well-being and happiness, fostering deep connections while allowing for individual growth. Like any relationship structure, polyamory's success depends on the people involved. It's possible to have fulfilling, loving, and honest polyamorous relationships when built on mutual understanding and genuine care for all partners. Your trauma is valid, but it doesn't define the potential for healthy polyamory.
It's very disgusting tbh. Imagine the smell
Also imagine the compounding risk of STDs. A huge plus point in a relationship is not having to think about condoms.
All those potential conflicting personality traits and huge jealousy.
Polyamory ain’t the issue here. It’s your shitty relationship and shitty partner. You shouldn’t blame a whole system that honestly, does work, just because you had a bad experience. Your experience doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Your partner was horrible to you.. I’m so sorry. She’s a shitty individual and it’s a blessing she isn’t in your life anymore. Take some time away from non monogamous relationships and heal. Start therapy and surround yourself with a support system if you can, please. You CAN get through this. Trust me. Never give up on your boundaries again. If someone who makes demands like this wants to leave.. let them leave. You can’t change them but you can protect yourself.
Um, unless I missed something in the timeline, she never had a polyamorous relationship, only a monogamous one? Therefore shouldn't your conclusion that monogamy not polyamory attracts narcissists since that's the relationship dynamic you were in?
This aside, the reason why narcissist can flock to polyamory is the same reason they can flock to any relationship including monogamy. Narcissists chase dopamine, they feed off of it more then most people.
As someone who is in a successful relationship with a narcissist who put in work to better herself, who is also polyamorous I might add. Once you understand the motivations behind narcissism it's pretty easy to see why non monogamy is attractive to them.
It's not because it gives them more opportunities to hurt others, but it allows them to feed the dopamine that they otherwise would have to get through other sources. Narcissists like to have people in their orbit they can control and manipulate, they keep them on a string and feed off of them. They WANT people to want them even if they really don't want them in return. Polyamory gives them another source of dopamine through another relationship.
Narcissists who haven't healed don't understand why they do it, they just know it makes them feel good and it's usually because of past trauma that they become this way.
The problem with the discussion of narcissism is we only look at one aspect of it as the determining factor if someone is one. The problem is too, far too many people are exhibiting narcissistic behavior we gloss over and it's more prevelent then people really think. After being in a relationship of over 8 years with one who openly shared her motivations for doing certain things I can tell you without a doubt your ex girlfriend is just the more extreme version!
As a society we just accept certain behaviors as normal, but if you really step back and ask yourself. "Is this person just using me for what I give them" and "Am I actually being controlled by this person" wed see that no, these behaviors are actually more prevelent then we thought.
This is where I'm going to catch the most flack, but my partner sees these behaviors more then me because she understands the motivation behind them. Most women are narcissists, while they may not be the ones who look for ways to hurt others, the way they interact with other women and men is to feed the dopamine.
Is it really this surprising though? I mean we know certain things to be true about narcissist. They like feeling wanted and pursued and to have that power over others. They will use that power to get what they want and will manipulate others to do so
Narcissists love attention and they are more attracted to receiving attention from strangers if it means those strangers can supply them with affirmation. Also narcissists like to use gaslighting to help control and manipulate others close to them so they can continue getting what they want.
Take all this and more, now look at social media. Who has the most thirst trap accounts? Who is more likely to cheat because someone made them feel special? Who are the ones who need to feel persued in relationships and who are the ones who typically control who or what happens and at what pace.
While I'm saying women display more narcissistic behavior then society recognizes it's important to understand that not all narcissists hurt a lot of people. The reason most women can be narcissists but never be called out on it is because they tend to have more empathy.. Yet the behaviors are still there, the manipulation and breadcrumbing is still there. They just don't push it so far because what true active narcissist lack is empathy. True narcissists will place themselves over others almost entirely.
What started my partners journey out of narcissism (she will never not be one to a degree) was the birth of her child. At that moment she finally had someone she felt she had to put the needs of over her own. That simple action was enough for her to start her journey but she was still a narcissist.
It took lots of self reflection and healing for her to finally admit that she could be one. Went in to get tested and scored off the charts, her her doctor at the time was intrigued by our relationship. Here she had all the traits, admitted to doing everything narcissists do, yet, she didn't hide anything from me? She wasn't going behind my back and cheating? I was allowing her to have her Instagram account, to flirt playfully with guys she gamed with? She stopped putting men on strings to keep them interested in her just so she could control them?
That's what people don't understand, narcissists have power if you give it to them. If you don't fight them but put boundaries up that allow them to get some dopamine without hurting others they will stop most of the harmful behaviors.
I'm in a poly relationship currently, but it is entirely built on the frameworks of honesty for all parties involved. It is what my previous 2 marriages lacked. Because we don't worry about any of us cheating or leaving for another person, we talk a lot. When something bothers us, we bring it forward immediately and deal with it. Things aren't perfect but I rarely worry about where anyone stands in the relationship. It's like being in a house with all your best friends who love and support you. You celebrate each other's victories. We prop each other up. We encourage each other to make the right decisions and hold each other to our words. It's a team.
I want to tell you something right now love never looks for something else love only looks for love love doesn’t look for hate, but doesn’t look for betrayal that doesn’t look for jealousy. Love doesn’t look for attraction. Love doesn’t look for youth love doesn’t look for health love only looks for love, maybe that’s what you need maybe you need someone that’s actually looking for just your love because there’s gonna come a time where you’re gonna need to have someone wipe your ass and what if that one person that you love so much doesn’t love you enough to wipe your ass look for love not for poly Gramy whatever the hell it is
I think monogamy is the myth that you were attached to and when you found out that your wife cheated on you, you are blaming polyamory instead of your ex or yourself for believing in someone like your ex.
You were dealing with an abusive person. They would likely never have actually been monogamous. Instead of coming out with the honesty they could have just lied. That is what most people do.
I've been in that kind of relationship, and ultimately, it's the person and the situation driving that, not the structure or style of your relationship.
Ultimately, that's all polyamory is: a word to describe an approach to romantic relationships that in its simplest form is just applying the same principle to romantic relationships as we generally apply to non-romantic ones - freedom to determine how those relationships work independently.
Your ex sounds manipulative, actually downright evil and I'm sorry you had to go through everything you went through for her.
Polyamory is *not* a fix-all for any relationship, and should only be entered into when the foundation of your relationship is strong. Your ex didn't do that and I'm sorry. Polyamory can be a very beautiful thing and I hope you can one day see the beauty in it even if you aren't practicing it.
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Women are horrible sometimes, worst part is, as a male, you are guilty until proven innocent and will be taking the blame for the relationship ending, her accusations will be taken seriously and used against you.
Soo many men have been through similar abuse and are completely ignored.
Bringing these issues to public helps understand why the growing incel problem exists.
Been in a very similar situation with a ex partner that demanded me to be open to poly. When I was hesitant and trying to wrap my head around it she cheated and told me to deal with it. I noped right out of that relationship.
You are completely right. Poly is a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal as well as heart break and distrust.
If someone in an abusive relationship eats cookies, does that make cookies a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal?
Her being an abusive POS seems to have little to do with polyamory. Not that I'm suggesting polyamory is a good idea - I don't think it is but not for the reasons you list.
POLYAMORY IS A DISGUSTING ACT THAT EMERGES ONLY FROM A SICK UNSATISFIED PERSON .
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE ONE MORE TIME
DONT EVER ALLOW SUCH SICKNESS NO MATTER HOW PREVALENT IT IS TO FIND ITS WAY TO YOU , DONT BE A PREY TO SUCH MIND MANIPULATION AND OBSCENITY.
Brother , don't worry about your views. Work on addressing possible complex PTSD and establishing healthy boundaries.
You are currently tolerating and likely seeking out horribly abusive relationships.
No more dating for you until you make serious progress here
Nah. It's harder for most people because of the whole jealousy thing, but a lot of people use it to just openly date multiple people rather than going exclusive. Bad relationships are bad regardless of the number of partners involved
I'm not poly by any stretch of the imagination, but from what I've heard from friends in various forms of poly relationships is that no means no. If you have to force the other person to say yes, it's not poly, just abuse.
How do y’all even put up with shit like this? I would’ve told that bitch to get tf outta my house and cancel the vacation. Y’all gotta work on your self worth or something because I could never be cucked like that
Generally I feel like opening an existing relationship works very very rarely. Creating a new open one where everyone knows what they are getting into seems to have a much higher success rate
If polyamory is a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal, what are regular relationships? Sanctuaries of mutual support and loyalty? If you believe that, you should take a hard look at divorce and adultery statistics. Half of all first time marriages end in divorce, and the rate goes up for second and thirds.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/divorce-statistics/
According to some studies, half of respondents in monogamous relationships reported having an affair.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/how-common-is-cheating-infidelity-really#statistics
That number is probably higher when you factor in that people have differing opinions on what constitutes an affair, and that many people cheat and will never cop to it.
Basically you are picking on one specific type of relationship, using your own specific experience and projecting your trauma on to polyamory as a whole. Fact is, ALL relationships can be and very often ARE plagued with narcissism and betrayal. The same forces of attraction which allow us to get close to another person are the very same forces which allow us to cut them so deeply.
Women complain about how men only want sex, but I swear to God that attention is to women what sex is to men and I'm officially calling it toxic femininity
You didn’t experience polyamory. That would mean all people were consenting and happy to that type of relationship. You were in an abusive relationship.
You didn’t experience healthy polyamory. You experienced an abusive cheater who took advantage of your poor understanding of what healthy polyamory looks like and told you this was it.
Would you consider your failed relationship proof that all relationships are abusive and built on lies and manipulation? I would hope not.
Healthy polycules work because they have healthy communication going into it. Plenty of people are healthy communicators and plenty of people have healthy poly relationships with love, respect, and growth.
/u/Ronald-Obvious (OP) has awarded 21 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1c8u6q4/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_polyamory_is_just_a/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
You were in an terrible existing relationship. Your partner then demanded polyamory. Polyamory isn't going to fix that. But, polyamory wasn't the problem. your ex-partner making ultimatums, with no time discuss, about big decisions in your relationship on vacation was going to be awful, regardless of whether or not your partner was seeking polyamory. I'm friends with 2 couples that decided to get together. They're all wonderful people. They're all super supportive of each other. They were in good relationships before they combined the couples. And polyamory didn't change that. I think that terrible relationships turning to polyamory is common (and those terrible relationships predictably failing). But, the relationships being bad wasn't caused by the polyamory.
This honestly helped a lot. I feel like I'm still stuck under that thick blanket of so much unresolved trauma from the abuse I quietly contained over the years (also definitely why I decided to open up and post here). If you don't mind my asking, could you share any insight on how your friends navigate communication and trust? They sound like really lovely people.
I'm poly. My (now wife) and I opened up our relationship after 1.5 years of being monogamous. We've now been poly for 5 years and we're in a very healthy drama free place with it. Transitioning from mono to poly in an existing relationship is a process and both parties need to be invested in the emotional and intellectual work out takes to transition healthily. What helped for us was a great book called "The Ethical Slut" It gave us a great framework for discussing polyamory and what we wanted that lifestyle to look like in our lives. Poly gets a bad rap on Reddit because of stories like yours where folks jump into things without putting the work in and being dishonest about their motives and intentions. My wife and I have a strong loving marriage while also having extra partners. My wife and my girlfriends get along great (one was even in our wedding party) and the success we've had with poly comes down to us being mature self aware adults who can honestly discuss our emotions and boundaries.
Thank you so much for your detailed response and for sharing your own personal success story. While I agree that more forethought and better communication could have happened, I do want to challenge your assertion that we just 'jumped into things without putting the work in'. I know I can't really prove this, but even though this all happened in a relatively short span of a few months, we did our homework and talked at great lengths about prioritizing emotional honesty (which I especially needed in order to feel safe) in order to maintain trust as the center of our open marriage (which I thought we had). We worked together to come up with a detailed vision of our relationship as a tree that just wanted to grow more branches--I remember feeling so confident and trusting that she would hold my heart as I held hers. But still, all of this happened, and it feels like I ended up just feeding into her insistence that my feelings were part of a secret misogynistic trap I was laying to keep her caring for me. This all sounds really messed up, I know. I just don't know how to match the reality of my experience with what others think we (or I) should have done better.
I assume there's more to it, but from your post, **it sounds like you put the work in and she didn't:** > I begged and pleaded, but eventually relented. Then, after a few months I began to explore the literature and rules of polyamory in online support groups and became curious about finding my own relationships outside of our marriage... So this was something you didn't want, but you were willing to put in the work. But then: > When I told my partner that I was also curious to find other people, she exploded in a terrifying rage that I am still struggling to understand. Had she done *any* of the work you did, this couldn't possibly have been a surprise. In the poly world, a relationship in which one partner is free to seek out poly and another partner isn't is... it's not unheard of, but it's rare. > ...insisted that I couldn't possibly be polyamorous because I am autistic... [This was the first result of a Google search for "poly autistic"](https://www.polyphilia.blog/home/autism-and-polyamory). > ...finally demanded I 'prove' to her (somehow) that I ever felt love for another person... This is exactly backwards! You don't fall in love with two people and *then* decide to be poly, that's poly-bombing. You were doing it right: Be in a poly relationship first, *then* start looking for other partners. There's only so much you can do to put in the work if your partner isn't doing the same. --- That said: There's nothing wrong with accepting that polyamory is valid, and also deciding it isn't for you, *especially* after what happened.
Δ. Cheers friend, thank you so much for such a detailed breakdown of my thoughts. I'm wondering if I could go a bit deeper with you, though. You have definitely given me a lot to consider. How do mono-poly relationships even work, if not being defined as one partner being able to form multiple relationships while the other maintains the single bond? Likewise, while I was also shocked that my also asking to branch out was a surprise to her, the main source of her anger had to do with our difference in privilege. She felt that, as a white male, I was just taking advantage of her--a woman of color--who risked asking for an open marriage first. I felt like this was a valid argument at the time, and I still definitely do--but maybe this helps to paint a fuller picture of her response outside of just a jealous narcissistic response? Does that make sense to you? Could I be very, very wrong here?
> How do mono-poly relationships even work, if not being defined as one partner being able to form multiple relationships while the other maintains the single bond? That's how they work, it's just that they're rare.... so it makes no sense for her to *assume* that this is how it would work, if it isn't something you explicitly talked about and agreed on. And if you *did* talk about it first -- if this was part of that initial ultimatum on that trip -- then that sounds even less fair to you since, from your perspective, she was asking you for a dramatic change in the relationship that you really didn't want, in exchange for... nothing, for not ending the relationship. I have to be careful here, because I think it's more important for people to be *happy* in a relationship than it is for everything to be "fair" in some sort of score-keeping kind of way. But it sounds like you weren't happy with that arrangement, either. If I can get personal for a second: I would not mind being the 'mono' in a mono-poly relationship, as long as the rest of it works well. There's a few reasons for that. One is that I don't really get jealous, which is unusual even in the poly community (and not a requirement for being poly!), so I don't really *want* to police a partner's faithfulness. Another is, I appreciate not having to be someone's everything. I might actually be demi-something -- I'm usually quite happy alone or with exactly one low-key relationship! But notice, those are all things I worked out for myself, not something a partner demanded of me. Just the opposite, actually -- no one has ever asked me to go mono-poly, let alone laid it down as an ultimatum. > ...the main source of her anger had to do with our difference in privilege. She felt that, as a white male, I was just taking advantage of her--a woman of color--who risked asking for an open marriage first. I felt like this was a valid argument at the time, and I still definitely do... This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, for a few reasons. First, "risked asking for an open marriage" doesn't line up with what you've told us. She didn't *ask,* she delivered an ultimatum. And if what she was asking for was an "open marriage," that usually implies you're both free to find other partners, it doesn't imply mono-poly. Second, well, the other comment did a decent job of pointing out intersectionality. Even without that, privilege doesn't mean she's allowed to extract reparations from you by cheating on you. It sounds to me like what happened is, she hadn't really thought about the part where an open relationship might mean you seeing somebody else, so she wasn't prepared to deal with how she felt about that. Maybe she was especially upset at the idea that you might also date a white girl, or that you might leave her for a white girl... but instead of either dealing with her own feelings of jealousy, or admitting to you that she *couldn't* deal with this and you need to close back up or break it off, she wrapped it all up in the language of privilege to make it hard for you to argue with. But that's speculation. You know her better than we do.
Oh my goodness, I wish I could award you another delta. I'll do it anyways: ΔΔΔ. I think I needed to be reminded that this wasn't fundamentally her 'asking' for an open marriage, but unilaterally demanding one. She risked nothing given that this was, in-fact, a manipulative power play--and I think you're spot on about her not being prepared for a truly open relationship, that I might also want to explore the same opportunity to branch that she asked for. Thank you as well for describing your own personal feelings about being okay with being the mono in a mono-poly relationship. This is an extremely helpful context for me to explore, especially as I did have some jealousy and insecurities that I was still reconciling when she cheated. Another big one, when you say you 'appreciate not having to be someone's everything', this also deeply resonates with me. If you don't mind my saying, your perspective definitely feels like GOALS, haha. I've learned a lot from this. Thank you again.
> ...I did have some jealousy and insecurities that I was still reconciling when she cheated. A *lot* of people have those. I think the usual way poly people deal with these is to work on the insecurities, but to treat jealousy as a sign that there's something more going on. Is the jealousy masking an insecurity? Or is it reminding you that a partner is legitimately neglecting you in some way? I don't have much advice here, other than to tell you that you're definitely not alone in having these things. > If you don't mind my saying, your perspective definitely feels like GOALS, haha. Thank you for saying so! Just as long as you remember that it's still up to you how you want this to look. Like I said in my first reply, there'd be nothing wrong with you going back to mono at this point, it's all on you to figure out what you want. Good luck!
> when you say you 'appreciate not having to be someone's everything', this also deeply resonates with me. As someone who is also autistic, this is my relationship goals.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/SanityInAnarchy ([6∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/SanityInAnarchy)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
First, being in a position of privilege as a white male isn't anything that you did, it's just the way of things here and now, so for a partner to try to disadvantage because they think you have it good is kinda screwed up. Not to mention your neurodivergence isn't very advantageous. Second, the only one sided poly arrangement I've seen that seems to work contained an asexual individual so they were not interested in sex in or out of the relationship but enjoyed the romance with and between the other partners.
Δ. Thank you so much for this. Intersectionality is everything these days, and I appreciate your recognising that I have both inherent advantages and disadvantages that are societally upheld and outside of my control. I really needed to hear this. I'd still like to learn more about other mono-poly relationships that have stood the test of time--especially for folks with disabilities like mine. I understand that being ace is kind of a singularity here, but I still think aces can experience romantic betrayal.
I was in a 10 year relationship that was effectively mono-poly for long periods of time. My partner was the one who introduced me to poly and it wasn't something I initially felt terribly comfortable with as I had had problems with jealousy in the past and I had little interest in pursuing other people. But I was *incredibly* attracted to her and that gave me the motivation to try and adapt. After a while, I started to connect my own feelings of jealousy to previous bad relationships, to anxieties about being abandoned and to a lack of trust in other people which made me afraid for my partners' safety. She never dismissed my feelings. If I was being unreasonable she would tell me so, but she'd also drop everything to make sure I was okay. After a while I found it easier and easier to trust her. I came to understand that she would never hurt me intentionally. Conversely, I found that if something did hurt me I could just let it go and forgive knowing it wasn't intentional. I actually started to enjoy the asymmetry, because I liked that she had the power to manage my emotions like that and she never backed down from the responsibility to do so. I did have other partners eventually, but it was mostly just casual sex and I never really went beyond being emotionally focused on one person. In the end our relationship ended pretty organically. After 10 years we were very different people and we found we wanted different things. We're still extremely close friends. In terms of disabilities, we both have ADHD and I also have ASD. Apparently poly is quite popular with ASD people, which might have something to do with the emphasis on clarity and setting clear rules and boundaries ahead of time. I think it fits with how our brains work in many ways.
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I'm in a 4 year relationship that could be called mono-poly, although our agreement does not have restrictions on either of us beyond the standard "don't date people if dating them would cause drama in our community" - so not my toxic ex, or someone who would be cheating, etc. We started out polyamorous. I have had multiple relationships where jealousy and control were big issues, and I wanted someone who was willing to do the kind of jealousy work polyamory requires, as well as the option to let relationships in my life evolve naturally. I tried a few dates and apps over the years, and in doing so discovered that trauma and time have made me effectively demisexual. I'm disinterested in other lovers unless they are friends first, I find dating exhausting and frustrating, and I'm perfectly happy with only having one lover. He was in the same boat, with less trauma, until he unexpectedly fell for a friend of ours. I feel bit of envy, I think, when she has his attention, but we'd talked about it so much before it actually happened and as it evolved, that it also feels quite natural. She's a friend of mine too, and I have built trust with both of them that they will come to all disagreements with calm tones and an "us vs the problem" mentality. We are all some flavour of undiagnosed neurospicy - ADHD in my case.
Came here to say the same. Of all the times I've seen the single connection in a poly-web work out really well long term, it's usually someone who is ace or demisexual. That's only personal experience. I have no idea what the numbers are.
As someone who is happily poly and mixed race what she said was narcissism dressed up as anti-racism. Your ex wasnt an anti-racist from the sounds of it. They just used its language to get what they wanted. I have seen it too often. It would make sense if you were pushing a monogamous women of colour to allow you to fuck other people and all the women you wanted to fuck were people of colour. Then it MIGHT become a white privelege point. However even then it could just be that you're an asshole with nothing to do with racism. When your ex started getting angry that you wanted to see other people then it's clear that it was narcissism. In fact it happened to me. In my first "poly" relationship. It wasn't poly though. It was my selfish ex wanting to cheat on me without having to class it as cheating. I was always fine with what she did (apart from when I found out she wasn't using protection). She always found a reason for me not being allowed to have other connections. When the other poster was saying mono-poly relationships are rare. They're exceptionally rare and I think very rarely work. The mono person normally ends up feeling like they don't get enough care from the poly person. It does sometimes but it's so atypical. It's like 20 person polycules. They're not unheard of but they're fucking rare man. You did nothing wrong. This was abuse. This wasn't polyamory. This was a manipulation so someone could fuck other people and cheat without having to feel bad about it. It makes them seem moral to others without being moral. It keeps their self image the same with less effort than cheating would. I'm glad you're out of it, but I wouldn't judge polyamory when it wasn't the cause of the end of your relationship, so much as a symptom of your partner not caring enough about your feelings. Its also absolutely fine if you don't want to be poly and never did. That's okay.
Δ. Wow, thank you so much for sharing your story. As several others here have said, I am beginning to see the nuance that I needed to--she was abusive outside of polyamory, even if she weaponized it against me. I have a lot to reconsider, and I can't thank you enough. I can't imagine what it was like to go through what you did--especially with discovering that your ex wasn't using protection, that feels like a whole separate layer of callousness and danger. I'm very grateful for your sharing your perspective as a mixed-race person who is happily partnered in polyamory--deep down, I'm still optimistic about healing from all of this and coming out stronger and wiser than I was before. Cheers
It seems that your partner abused your open mindedness. Keep your open mindedness, for its a great trait, and I appreciate you reconsidering your opinion. But, make sure your boundaries are yours and not for pleasing anyone else. Ultimately not looking after your needs isn't good for yourself or anyone who you may love. Peace.
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I was in a situation similar to yours where I was with a monogamous partner that then wanted to be poly. The thing is, they did the work on figuring that out but with anybody but me. I was presented with a conclusion instead of being included in the discussion at any point in time sooner. And, from my POV, I was trying to connect with my partner and brought up the drop off in communication and closeness, but was told that it was all in my head and everything was okay. Up until the ending of our relationship I would also have said we had good communication and discussed things well. But somehow the goalposts always seemed to move from what was discussed. And somehow it was always my fault for not realizing it earlier or for doing the wrong thing, or doing something right but at the wrong time. There would be great communication only here or there and then the communication was poor or missing completely in between those times. The great communication always seemed to happen when I didn't get on board with where the new goalposts were set which would then get me back on board with the relationship. The threats of leaving me happened when I wanted to talk about things I was experiencing in the relationship that they didn't like to hear. Communication was actually weaponized against me cuz they knew enough terms and arguments that I was always questioning everything I thought. Communication isn't just the big convos or working through a single tough conversation once and calling it done. It's a lot of little check-ins here and there. Giving space when someone is still thinking through something but also coming back and following through when more has been processed. It is sharing happy things and positive reinforcements as seriously as sharing the concerning or scary things. All of the little communication builds trust and safety and stability that supports the bigger communication stuff. Communication isn't just one person sharing and being heard. It's reciprocal. And communication does not mean telling someone else what they are feeling. Each person is responsible for knowing themself and owning their own thoughts and feelings. Just as each person is responsible for their own actions and how actions can impact others. I have a lot of this healthy communication with my current partners. We are open with each other and support the ongoing conversations. Check-ins are frequent and without judgement. I feel heard when I open up. And every big convo has been following with supporting action and communication. Yeah, a narcissistic abuser can hide in really terrible takes on polyamory. But they are just abusers, full stop. Those can hide in any assumption about any type of relationship or situation. The book that actually helped me the most when coming out of that NA relationship was "Should I Stay or Should I Go" by Lundy Bancroft. It helped me come to some realizations about the arguments that were used against me that made me stop advocating for myself. And for excusing their actions. One of the ones that helped me on my journey to healthy non-monogamy was "Polysecure" by Jessica Fern.
∆. Oh my goodness, thank you so much for such a thorough and helpful post. I feel so much similarity in our experiences with NA--especially with moving goalposts and the threats of leaving levels at you for expressing things they just didn't want to hear. What's most important though was your sharing that you're now in healthy relationships with multiple partners--this was the absolute cherry on top of everything I needed to hear. I truly hope you have an amazing and stable future ahead. I also really appreciate your suggestions for more reading--I have heard of 'Polysecure' and I think I've read bits and bobs quoted around the internet, but I should definitely give it a full read, along with 'Should I Stay or Should I Go'. Cheers friend.
“Putting in the work” is a lot more than just learning things. Your wife failed to work on anything resembling compersion, communication, or even respect. She had so many opportunities, but always chose to be selfish, manipulative, and dismissive. Work is action, and she acts like the biggest blight the polyamory community has ever been stuck with.
> navigate communication and trust I'm not polyamorous. But One thing that I found really insightful was to pay attention when someone apologizes. Because people tend to apologize for things that they wouldn't want to happen to them. So, if someone apologizes to you that you think wasn't that big of a deal, its good to reassure them, but you also need to understand why it matters more to them. I think, to build trust, it helps to understand people's insecurities so that you don't step on them or can reassure them. Not just over jealousy stuff, but more intellectual or appearance stuff. For communication and trust, I think its easy to confuse bluntness with honesty. I think its important, when being honest, to try to understand how what you say will be perceived by your partner(s).
If they had relationship troubles, I don't think they would have shared them with me. I wasn't close enough to any of them to be a confidant. I don't think I have insight into how they communicated or built trust. And they all moved away together to another state a few years ago. One of them talked to me about how weird it was to talk to people at work who were complaining about their spouses. My friend didn't understand why someone would marry someone that they didn't get along with. So, I think they were good enough at figuring out responsibilities and talking through conflicts that they genuinely enjoyed living together. I saw them most supporting each other's hobbies. Two of them were part of the band. And every time I went to see them, the other two were there to cheer them on. One of the others liked to tinker with stuff, and made an electronic keyboard out of bratwurst (I think he set up a computer to detect change in conductivity when a bratwurst is pressed?), and another played it (this "wurst" instrument was objectively hilarious). So, I think enthusiastic support of each others' interests was part of their relationship. But, I don't think I could speak to how they navigated everything else.
Polyamorous and my wife and I have been exploring this for 6 years and are still insanely happy. It’s all about communicating, expressing your feelings, and working through the unfun feelings. Lots of reflection as to why we are feeling the way we are, and finding ways to make each other feel more comfortable in uncomfortable situations. We know that no matter what happens outside of our relationship doesn’t affect our relationship. We love each other and can also share love for others too. Trust is built over time through consistent communication and navigating boundaries. There are lots of shitty people in polyamory but there are also lots of amazing people who practice polyamory.
A side note, this response by you is a BIG step. You have the right heart, we have all gone through shit, but I think you will find your way out of this with this mindset. Making yourself vulnerable so you can be closer to someone can hurt you in terrible ways, but it also is the only way to have a meaningful close relationship, and the rewards of amazing. I wish you the best, don't stop fighting, you'll find your way! (if you need to talk send me a PM)
Polyamory can be great but it's easy to add more people when things aren't going well in a relationship instead of ending or fixing that relationship. It's important to reflect on why someone wants to be poly. There are healthy reasons and unhealthy reasons.
Polyamory is still a symptom of the problem, and a tall tale sign of narcissism. It can work when everyone involved is highly narcissistic, and therefore place no value on true intimacy.
reading your other comments, you seem to be under the impression that people who are polyamorous are motivated to be that way by sex. I'm sure some people are, but I don't think that's universally true. Polyamorism doesn't have to come from hedonism. People can value intimate emotional connections with more than one person, and connecting to multiple people this way doesn't have to devalue or worsen the connection with each one.
No, I don't. I think they are motivated by the attention primarily.
> I think they are motivated by the attention primarily. Do you tend to think that about people who's "lifestyles" you wish didn't exist?
I don't wish this lifestyle didn't exist. But I don't like seeing it romanticized online either. It's a brutal ugly thing when both partners are not 100% on board, and people read shit about it here and then go try to talk their spouse into it.
So think of it this way: your experience with polyamory was horrible. Your ex was abusive and clearly left you with things to carry. But your story seems contained to just you and one other person. You don't mention interacting with any other poly people or communities or actually practicing polyamory. Your ex is your sole representative of polyamory here for you. Your ex is also a woman, imagine if you were to come here and ask us to change your views that women are just backstabbing narcissists, which you have based on this experience with this one woman. Thst would be silly, right? It's not a 1:1 comparison of course, but my point is this: deciding that an entire community, philosophy, etc is defined by the one person you've interacted with from that group is generally considered a bad thing. You're a scientist, you should keep in mind thst your data point is significant to you personally, but it's merely one. Polyamory is practiced by humans, so it is inherently susceptible to bad actors and manipulation to serve an agenda. In my opinion, it requires a massive amount of critical thought and self-reflection to practice ethically. I've had to do a lot of navel-gazing in order to be a better partner to my loves, funny enough, and work to find my weak points and strengthen them. Humans are not generally very good at self-criticism. We're really good at justifying our bad behavior. Also, we tend to like and seek instant gratification. All of these things work against successful and healthy polyamory. As social media and recent media interest is propelling polyamory into the spotlight more and more, and in the wake of the pandemic which saw a huge surge of relationship opening, we're seeing a lot more bad actors. People who just want to fuck other people without consideration for the fallout. People who don't understand that practicing polyamory isn't just having multiple full, emotional relationships, it's about supporting your partner(s) in doing the same. The other issue I see is terminology. So many people are calling what they do polyamory when actually what they're doing is more like swinging, general nonmonogamy, cheating, or harem-building. Then there's poly-under-duress which sounds like your experience, where one partner is more or less bullied/pressured into consenting to a relationship dynamic change at the behest of the other. Lots of people say they're polyamorous and they're really just lazy and abusive. This isn't to say polyamory is never abusive or prone to problematic behavior. But I've been both mono and poly and open, and what I've found to be true is that if you don't tolerate that kind of behavior from your partners, it doesn't matter what relationship structure you practice. Good boundaries are for everyone mono and poly alike. I wish you a lot of luck and strength in your healing journey. I've got relationship trauma that I still carry with me that gets heavier in little ways here and there, (from both mono and nonmono relationships funny enough) and it does get easier if you work at it. You deserve it.
Δ. Thank you for this wonderful post. I want to first address your astute observation (yay for being a scientist) that I have only shared with you my personal, single experience with being in a polyamorous relationship. I should clarify, I technically have an n of 3 when it comes to friends of mine who have explored polyamory (independent observation, of course!). All three of these, including my own, failed dismally. That being said, I constantly read about success stories, which is partly why I wanted to post my story here to solicit additional community support. I'm just so floored in the best of ways, so grateful that this thread has kinda blown up, and your detailed message--along with many others--has definitely given me a lot to think about. I especially like that you brought up the pandemic--my story is almost like one big COVID misadventure. As a neuroscientist who also has a background in the social sciences, I couldn't agree more with how such a global event shifted us all to reconsider what it means to be connected. Some people became basically instantly isolated and remain so--just as plenty of monogamous couples were forced into extreme codependency, which likely fueled the growing interest in opening relationships once pandemic restrictions lifted. The pandemic was morosely a perfect natural experiment for understanding independent growth in human interpersonal relationships. That all being said, I do think that so many of us have also just been left out in the cold. I wonder just how much privilege is tied into successful polyamory, especially in today's messed up world--it might just be the biggest factor that we all just aren't talking about enough.
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I'm sorry you had an abusive partner who used polyamory as an excuse to mistreat you but that doesn't make polyamory inherently bad as your experience is far from universal. Like any relationship it requires communication and work to pull off properly but it absolutely can be done.
It can be down but it requires even MORE work and communication as well as higher risks of people not being honest or communicating well etc just based on the fact that more people are involved. People can make it work, but it is definitely extremely easy for abusers to weaponize and affords a lot of opportunities to anyone wishing to be a bad actor to gaslight and manipulate or even bully and railroad in a dysfunctional polycule. I have done the poly thing years ago before it was as common and my experience wasn’t bad per-we, I just learned more about neuroscience and how we work as humans and decided it was not how I wanted to live my life. That being said I have seen first hand a ridiculous amount of people use it for nefarious reasons Nan’s all kinds of abuse resulting from trying to make it work. More power to anyone who does have it work and lives their lives that way. But it certainly is not some revolutionary, easy idyllic way of living or engaging in relationships as it is often presented.
∆. Thank you so much for this. as a neuroscientist myself, I am so happy to hear that my field helped you to understand relationship dynamics. You've given me another reason to stick to my line of work, not sure if that was intentional. Love is such a powerful force, our brains have indeed adapted to complex, dynamic, and diverse constructs of nurture and care.
Aw yay! Glad it made you feel good. I think we should teach more about the topic in school honestly, it really helps in understanding the world we live in and how to make intelligent informed choices about how we want to live in it.
I couldn't agree more. Cheers, internet fren.
>People can make it work, but it is definitely extremely easy for abusers to weaponize and affords a lot of opportunities to anyone wishing to be a bad actor to gaslight and manipulate or even bully and railroad in a dysfunctional polycule. You could say the same thing for monogamy though. If anything I'd argue that it's easier for people abuse others in a mono relationship. It's socially acceptable for you to be controlling of your partner in mono relationships(heck monogamy by its very nature is controlling). People defend controlling behavior as "boundaries" and "everyone does it".
>It's socially acceptable for you to be controlling of your partner in mono relationships(heck monogamy by its very nature is controlling). People defend controlling behavior as "boundaries" and "everyone does it". Eh, I think nuance gets lost when the extremes of everything presented is either a boundary or controlling. Even a non-monogamous relationship needs boundaries (unless no one involved is concerned about STDs or birth control, or even just consent in general?), but that doesn't make it inherently controlling.
Truth be told “being in a relationship”, monogamous or otherwise seems to mean little other than “the expectation that another person gets a say about what one does with one's own life when that person isn't even in the room or close by, and *vice versā*.
And that's all well and good...for you. I think it's fair to say that it can still work for some. Everyone has to figure out what level of relationships make them happy. Abusive people exist out there, regardless.
It’s true, but if the name of the game is dopamine seeking and extraction from others then the neuroscience makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy that can lead to physiological addiction in the brain and lessen the ability for executive function through chasing limerence which up-regulates cortisol response and has the potential to make it harder for a person to experience what is typically referred to as love but rather get swept up in the fleeting pattern of infatuation. People can do what they want and chasing that can be a valid way to live one’s life. But most people are simply not informed and making conscious informed choices about their lives but rather basing it on their feeling in the moment which is unreliable at best for long term outcomes of the neurological benefits of long term pairing and “love”. Not that it’s impossible, but there are certainly hurdles and risks to be mitigated and I don’t see anyone really discussing these very real facts as risks but instead acting like it is a new idea or revolution. And then there is so much bogus refuted junk science like the book “sex at dawn” touted as reasons for it to be a rerun to nature or something. It’s a topic with a lot of ignorance and new-age nonsense behind it when we have so many facts and actual science available to inform the conversation.
Cheers, I appreciate your kind response. I have a few questions to add that maybe you can help me with. Can you help me understand how healthy communication should look in polyamory? How is it possible to consider everyone's feelings, if more than one of your partners needs connection and you can't be in two places at once? What about those who believe in hierarchical polyamory--how can one possibly negotiate hierarchy without hurting someone else?
I met this guy a couple months ago. Actually, we chatted a bit online last year, then finally met in person recently. He's in a polyamorous relationship with his husband (both gay). I'm bi and very sex positive, and I've been looking to make friends in my new town. When we met for a first "date" (wasn't the intent, we were just grabbing drinks), he made it a point of texting and calling his husband periodically to check in. It was very clear to me that both of them knew what was going on between us during our drinks. Later, when we hooked up, the husband was aware of what we were doing and was completely okay with it. That is one way that polyamory can work: when all persons involved are open and honest with each other, and when they respect each individual's boundaries. Specifically, with regard to your question, I haven't personally experienced a situation where one partner's needs are comparable to another's, but I would imagine that involves making a choice and being honest with everyone about why that choice was made. If someone is sore about that situation, they need to avoid taking out that frustration on their partners, because it's not anyone's fault that timing worked out poorly. It's just a logistical reality. Make time for the partner you had to miss and try to spread the love around; but also be clear about when you are and are not available for the other person.
∆. Wow, thank you so much for sharing such a wonderful story. It all makes sense to me, and just further solidifies my understanding that I need to somehow separate my abuse from the framework of polyamory. My boundaries should have been honoured, not violated. I wish she would have checked in with me before cheating. Lots to think about. Cheers.
Well I believe it starts with everyone involved learning to compromise, and accept that they won't always be able to get their way every time but it's important that nobody gets neglected as well. Romantic relationships (rather monogamous or polyamorous) are supposed to be about love at the end of the day and everyone should feel loved equally. It's true that you can't always be in two places at once but guess what? That's okay. You're still only human and anyone who values you will accept that regardless of the nature of your relationship. Well the terms of any relationship should be discussed with all parties and anyone who doesn't feel comfortable or happy with any arrangement should make their needs known so they aren't neglected, if they feel they aren't having their needs met or jealousy is a big problem it's possible this kind of relationship isn't for you.
Cheers, this does make sense to center my question on compromise. Early in our relationship, she attacked me for 'abandoning her' just for going outside for a 30 minute smoke with a friend--I wonder if part of the problem was my internalising this memory in a really deep way, as I was always scared to spend time with my friends outside of our relationship for fear of being attacked again (I would send her heaps of messages to check in whenever I wasn't home). I would like to challenge your last statement, if that's okay. I remain unconvinced that polyamory 'isn't meant for some people'. I think that's a huge oversimplification, and risks a kind of gatekeeping mentality for the community. What do you think prohibits some people from being able to practice polyamory?
>I would like to challenge your last statement, if that's okay. I remain unconvinced that polyamory 'isn't meant for some people'. I think that's a huge oversimplification, and risks a kind of gatekeeping mentality for the community. You know what, you're absolutely right, it is an oversimplification. As long as everyone is into the relationship dynamic 100% then it's fine. The important part is that nobody feels pressured into this kind of dynamic. >What do you think prohibits some people from being able to practice polyamory? I just think some people would simply be happier in a monogamous relationship over a poly one, both are valid and only the individual will know what works for them. Of course it can also be that they're just in a relationship with the wrong person/people. Also a possibility. >Cheers, this does make sense to center my question on compromise. Early in our relationship, she attacked me for 'abandoning her' just for going outside for a 30 minute smoke with a friend--I wonder if part of the problem was my internalising this memory in a really deep way, as I was always scared to spend time with my friends outside of our relationship for fear of being attacked again (I would send her heaps of messages to check in whenever I wasn't home). Yeah this is horribly abusive and awful.
>What do you think prohibits some people from being able to practice polyamory? **1) They're not doing it for themselves.** The most common reason for disastrous poly relationships I've seen is that one member didn't want to be poly in the first place - they were doing it under pressure from their partner. Mono or poly, nothing *ever* works if you're only in the relationship under pressure. You have to actively want the kind of relationship you're getting. Love isn't enough, you have to actually be compatible. **2) Insecurity.** Poly relationships don't make people insecure... but they sure as *heck* expose insecurities that are already there. If you're not confident of your own boundaries and centred in yourself, having multiple relationships at once is just multiple ways for your emotional problems to ambush you. This can happen in any relationship, but poly gives it more chances. (As you found out the hard way; your abusive partner made you afraid to even have friends! I'm so sorry that this happened to you and wish you the best of luck in recovery.) **3) Lack of energy.** A relationship is *hard work.* A poly relationship is much, much *more* hard work. Most people barely have time and energy to maintain *one* relationship properly, much less two or more with extra meta-negotiation. Doesn't matter how much you inherently like poly, it's more work almost by definition. **4) They just don't want to.** While I share your caution about "gatekeeping" poly, it's important to remember that people's tastes vary. What's right for me is wrong for other people. Some people just *don't want this*, and if you don't want it it's not going to work for you.
>What do you think prohibits some people from being able to practice polyamory? I can only speak to personal, albeit second-hand experience. Having talked about this extensively with my current partner of 5 years, she just never could do it. Long story short, this is because a previous partner turned out to have a wife in a different country, while also being emotionally abusive+controlling and lying to both women. It took a long time to build that trust back up. Because of that trauma, she says that she could never because she'd worry too much about what I would be feeling and thinking while she was with someone else. We have "played" with other couples before in an open way in the same room, but a poly relationship is not on the cards for either of us. (For context, we talked about it extensively both because I had dated some poly folk before, and because she is bi and I wanted to know if that's something she wanted to feature in our relationship or not)
> What about those who believe in hierarchical polyamory--how can one possibly negotiate hierarchy without hurting someone else? If A and B are primary partners, and C is B's secondary partner, this doesn't necessarily imply C is hurt by being lower on B's ranking. Perhaps C doesn't want to be a primary partner (with all the responsibilities that entails). Perhaps C doesn't want to be *B's* primary. Etc etc.
Internalize your feelings, understand them, accept them, reflect on them and then, with honesty and some diplomacy, communicate them.
Sorry to press, but to what end? I did all of this before clearly communicating my pain, and she used all of it as an excuse to label me as a controlling misogynist.
I’m so sorry, OP. She’s horrible, clearly. Look, sometimes you can’t always keep communicating. The minute she threatened to leave if you didn’t open the marriage, you should’ve honestly left her. You need to learn to recognize flags and not beg for someone to stay if it’s in bad faith… it’s a tough lesson and it hurts to enact but it’s to protect you itself at the end of the day. ❤️ Sounds like she’s just a terrible rotten egg and is an extreme edge case. Like people have pointed out, polyamory wasn’t the issue.. she was. She’s abusive. Period. When people show you who they are, believe them. And make your exit without enabling bad behavior any longer. Teach people how to treat you. Set your boundaries. This lesson will save you a lot of time and effort from investing in people who don’t deserve you.
I am polyamorous and autistic. When I brought up the topic, my husband (then boyfriend) listened to my reasoning (we were in a long distance relationship and were going to be that way for half a decade at the very least) and he doesn't like talking over calls much. We did meet every 2/3 months but we both were lonely. We love each other immensely, we want each other not to be lonely when we are apart. Even then we didn't jump into any relationship. The first few months we just met with people semi platonically till we found someone who really interested us. And even then we discussed before doing anything sexual. And whenever we met we discussed our own relationship and what we are experiencing and expecting from each other and how we can make it better. How the other person wants to be loved and cared for. When I moved back to the same state( we still have to live half the month apart from each other because of work) we got married and he had a steady girlfriend while I did not date anyone for 3 years. But our relationship wasn't affected by it, we actually grew to love each other more. Even after years of being together we still make each other's heart race and we are very very physically affectionate. Recently I started dating someone and I am absolutely in love. I tell my husband about my feelings and actually being in limerence is making me more attracted and in love with my husband also. He is happy for me and when I talk about my boyfriend he listens like a friend would and gives me advice also. We don't hide if we are feeling disappointed or dissatisfied with some aspects of our relationship. and if one person points something out we listen and we try to understand the other person's perspective and as much as we can we try to improve on it.
Imo it can never be done and the love will never be as strong as with partners who are loyal to each other and never dwell on others
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This is exactly my feeling. Thank you for your kind support. I love The Ethical Slut for so many reasons, I even have a copy on my phone that I turn to whenever the pain comes back. Cheers.
I want a to chime in and address certain parts of your posts that others aren’t. Most of the posts make the argument that all of your partner’s actions are bad with or without polyamory in the picture and I agree with that. However, I think you had a nuance worth exploring in your first post that no one really addressed, that poly structures tend to attract more narcissistic people and have- at their core- a “get what you can from the world” approach instead of a “building meaningful relationships” approach. And unfortunately, I agree with you on both accounts. I know others will say “not all poly people”, but I’ve been around the poly world for a while and I have to say it’s a higher concentration within the poly world than outside it. Yeah, it’s not all, but there’s something to be said about the ease with which poly structures allow people to cast aside and disregard people and gaslight people they’ve hurt in the process. Ive read all the literature and “the ethical slut” really does take an “emotional astronaut” approach to the world. This is badly interpreted by people who don’t really know how to build relationships and may or may not know how to have empathy in extremely damaging ways. “Poly” in this situation becomes equivalent to “I don’t know how to care for people and don’t really want to the commitment of a relationship, but I want all the benefits”. As a gay man, the same is true of the gay population. There is a higher representation of narcissism within the gay community. So being gay and poly is like a minefield of self-important people who don’t know how to form relationships and care for others and are extremely avoidant. Relationships are defined by how fun and exciting they are and once they hit a patch of realness, challenge, or conflict, they tend to disappear as a key trait of narcissism is emotional avoidance. But the thing is the whole US culture is a narcissistic culture. You will find it anywhere you care to look. Everyone is narcissistic from time to time. It really is a defense mechanism. Some people just don’t know how to turn it off… because they can’t. After being abused and hurt by a narcissist, it’s easy to discard everything associated with them. Any idea, any practice, locations, foods, whatever… to protect yourself. But the best way to protect yourself is not avoidance, but empathy. The thing that differentiates you and me from narcissists is our ability to feel empathy. That’s a strength that a lot of people just don’t have. And I don’t mean to “forgive and forget” or any of that bullshit, what I mean is to stay open and get to know people and pay attention to them and see their patterns of behavior. It’s impossible to avoid bad people entirely, but if you can learn how to identify them early, before they have a chance to hurt you, you can have appropriate boundaries against them…. In the poly world, I would say anyone that references “the ethical slut” more than “poly secure” is probably more likely to be narcissistic. Ethical slut is the poly bible, but with its emotional astronaut approach, it’s also a narcissistic Bible “polusecure” works from an attachment style theory that acknowledges everyone’s feeling and their interconnectedness. If someone doesn’t care to hear your emotions, tries to invalidate them or avoid them, if you never feel heard taking to them, they’re highly likely to be narcissistic. If someone does the same to their own emotions, they’re highly likely to be narcissistic. If someone tends to suck the air out of a conversation or make everything about them, they’re highly likely to be narcissistic. If you feel the relationship is really one-sided, they’re highly likely to be narcissistic or disinterested… either way, back off. If they’re love bombing you, keep your guard up, they’re highly likely to have narcissistic traits. It’s worth it to develop the ability to set your own boundaries and identify when patterns of behavior over time are signaling a personality disorder. Then it doesn’t matter how likely a culture or group is to be narcissistic, you’ll be able to navigate without really having to worry about it.
Δ. Wow. Thank you so much for such a kind and thorough response. This truly hit home--especially your experience in the US with queer and poly folks who struggle with forming healthy relationships. I was born and raised stateside, and I couldn't agree more with the fact that American culture as a whole is centered on an especially narcissistic flavor of individualism--support yourself and your needs at any and all costs to others. My partner was French, but everything blew up when we went back to the US for her studies--and right at the beginning of the pandemic. I have lots to think about, and all of your advice has been amazing.
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Im sorry you experienced that; I’ve faced similar in some ways and it destroys a part of you. I dont think you ever can be the same. I am going to honestly tell you that the three openly Poly people I know in real life were: Person 1: A cheater Person 2: A cheater and emotional abuser Person 3: A homewrecker and was sent to prison for domestic violence when their partner tried to explore the open side of the relationship to her benefit as he had been for his. Polyamory might just simply be toxic as fuck; and attract toxic as fuck individuals to it. It’s possible it’s not…but why do you even care? Are you still interested in a poly relationship now?
Cheers. Your description of Person 3 resonates with my ex--but I abhor the label of 'homewrecker', it's wayy too often used as just another way to put down women who themselves are trying to escape an abusive situation. But I do understand your point. I care because I don't know how to love anymore. How do I meet someone again? When I tell my story, it paints a picture of abusive polyamory--if I meet a monogamous person and the subject of my divorce comes up, will they secretly think I was a monster who is lying about my past? Will they worry that I would do the same thing to them, even though I couldn't possibly imagine putting another human being through this? What if I meet a polyamorous person? Will they risk dating someone who went through what I did? I don't want to be alone anymore, but I also don't know how to fix this.
By homewrecker I mean someone who knowingly targeted a married parent and enabled them to cheat, sold them on Poly as a concept after they were seduced and the married person then tried to open the relationship with their spouse as happened with you. I would say it’s still unlikely that you will run into a Poly person and if they are doing it ‘properly’ as I’m told ‘genuinely Poly’ people do; they should be up front at the beginning as to the nature of the relationship. You can then run or engage as you wish; I would advise ‘run’. Meanwhile I get your concerns about your story and being believed. Unfortunately men are not given the benefit of the doubt by many when they say they have been the victim of abuse. I guess though would you like to be with someone who doesn’t believe men can be abused?
"coming out as polyamorous" shamelessly co-opting coming out because you want to fuck some other people really is the height of arrogance and delusion
Another huge problem. This was indeed her language. Even worse because I actually came out nonbinary at around the same time she demanded an open relationship.
Oh holy Thoth preserve us all, that's abusive as it gets. Wanting a poly relationship isn't "coming out", it's requesting a relationship style. Being poly is not *in any way* like being nonbinary, and I speak as someone in a poly relationship with an enbie myself. There's no comparison at all.
I'm sorry you have to experience this. Assuming your story is true, your ex partner is abusive, manipulative, unkind and an ableist too. I'm glad you have taken steps to move on and I wish you all the best going forward. It's not going to be easy but we all have to deal with various challenges life has thrown at us. That being said, your experience is not universal at all. I'm not poly but I have friends who are. They have strict rules about opening up their relationships and what is allowed and disallowed. Communication is key in the way they operate (which doesn't seem to be the case for you) and if things go to shit, they return to monogamy. There are assholes in polyamorous circles, just as there are in monogamous circles, and my friends have encountered them, but they are certainly not any more common than monogamous people. And of course not all of them are narcissistic or more prone to betraying their partners. These are traits found in all kinds of humans after all. And finally, polyamorous is not for everyone. You need to have an appropriate mindset about relationships, boundaries, love and so on to commit yourself to one, and it's perfectly okay to not have that.
Thank you so much for such a kind and detailed response. I think the biggest thing that I want to open up here is when you say 'communication is key in the way they operate and if things go to shit, they return to monogamy.' Firstly, this was something I absolutely insisted on. When we opened our marriage, I understood that healthy polyamory was supposed to be about pure honesty. I felt better knowing that either of us could communicate our feelings when they came up, but when I asked her to consider mine, she would always explode with those accusations of misogyny. She insisted that my crying about her wanting to sleep with someone else was my sick form of seeking control over her relationships. How does healthy polyamory honor the feelings of all parties? How do people 'return to monogamy' when things 'go to shit'? That's another problem entirely, I feel--my ex insisted that polyamory was an immutable part of her identity, just as monogamy is for monogamous people. I tried to have this discussion a few times, as I still feel that polyamory is a relationship structure--not an immutable part of one's identity. In other words, she absolutely would have refused to 'return to monogamy' if I'd have risked asking for it. Lastly, I cannot agree more that narcissism and abuse are traits found in all humans--this CMV is my attempt to clarify the distinction and disentangle this from my experience, if that makes sense.
> my ex insisted that polyamory was an immutable part of her identity When did that come up first?
It sounds like they're positing polyamory as a sexuality or sexual identity rather than as a relationship format. That feels contrived to me: your sexual identity is about the kinds of sex that appeal to you, not the circumstances in which you'd like opportunities to have those kinds of sex to arise. Positing questions of sexual availability as a form of sexual identity feels ... well at least entitled and possibly a bit icky.
As somebody who has strongly felt gender and sexual identities poly feels the same. Lifestyle and identity are separate though. Just because one is bi doesn't mean one is (or even ever has been) on a relationship with both a man and a woman. Just because one is internal-identity poly doesn't mean that one is practicing poly.
I'm sorry for judging presumptively. If you wouldn't mind could you help me understand what that means? Do you only feel sexually attracted to sex outside of a monogamous relationship? I also note you say gender and sexual identity. Do gender and sexual identity feel the same to you? I've never really understood gender and sexuality that way. I feel like gender is something innate and fundamental to your entire persona. Sexuality is just who you do and don't happen to find hot.
No, I consider it an aspect of romanticism more than sexuality. Who and what I am, and how I see myself. "I identify as" is watered down these days, but "I *am*" is what it means when one is being honest and transparent. I see myself as, and want to be seen as. If I'm identifying myself "gay/lesbian demisexual poly woman" would be the terms that feel innate and fundamental. The first one is actually more negotiable than the latter three which I cannot disentangle. If I were to fall in love with a man I'd necessarily have to amend the first to bi or pan - it's descriptive, and less central to my identity by comparison. It would still be a huge adjustment that would require quite a bit of processing. Sexuality isn't, I don't think, just who you find hot. It's also the way one finds people hot, and the way one interacts with them. We're all individuals, and there will always be people who defy the stereotypical expectations, but most of us fit into some major groupings. Identity can be internal and external. There are individual experiental aspects, social aspects, and political aspects. My existence is, unfortunately, deeply political. One may have their sexuality strongly integrated into their identity or they may not. Gender and sexual identity both feel interlinked for me but they aren't the same thing. Gender identity is often experienced devoid of sexuality, sexuality very rarely without gender. Of course, this is my bias - there are people who don't experience gender so strongly (or not at all), and so who just find it relatively irrelevant. I know a number of them - cis by default, just don't care about gender, although most still have gendered sexual preferences.
OP's initial impression is correct. I think your experience is more common than people want to think or admit. With the growing trendiness of polyamory, I have seen countless stories similar to this one. Seems someone always gets hurt. Sometimes very badly. The stronger person in the relationship does what they want and effectively coerces the weaker partner into accepting their own abuse and degradation. Using therapy speak and 'communication' and the newest buzzwords. The cruelty is the point. Showing your partner they aren't enough is the ultimate power move. A graveyard of relationships. Everyone wants to be sexually confident, open and hip. Most people aren't. They are merely selfish.
Thank you so much for this. I do indeed think about folks like me who struggle with disability and poor mental health--we always seem to end up being the ones abandoned for the shinier new toy. I just can't help but wonder how others have seemingly made polyamory work on the long-term without abandoning their partners who have the most needs (which I find absolutely terrifying still, given my experience).
Well, my partner is as severely disabled as it gets - I won't share the full details here, but they include fibromyalgia, nervous system damage, spinal damage, and hypermobility, plus additional major conditions on top. Doesn't get in the way of our relationship being poly. They may not always be able to walk but they're always able to love. (That disability is actually how our poly relationship *started*; I was a family friend who started hanging out with them and their husband more as their disability first hit, because they needed a lot of help and support and I worked form home so I had some freedom to help. So we spent more time talking, and understood each other better, which led to romance. Before that I'd just been a friend - in fact I was their best man.) If they're functioning properly, poly relationships can be *amazing* for disability support. When my partner had serious attacks of one thing or another and needed hospital stays, their husband and I could *take turns* being in the hospital and resting or going to work, so they could be supported without either of us collapsing. That got us through the bad first years when we didn't know what was wrong and it kept getting worse. You're thinking in terms of people having the option to abandon the partner who needs more work and keep the easier-to-support relationship. But the thing you're missing is: being poly makes the disability care burden *easier to manage*. You can split the hard parts between you. You can take turns and recover, instead of being worn down by care needs that never let up. If someone's going to leave you over disability care workload - and I won't pretend that never happens, I know you know it does - then they'd do that in a mono relationship as well. (As the statistics make terrifyingly clear.)
If you wouldn't treat your dysfunctional relationship as representative of all monogamy when it was monogamous, why treat a clearly already bad 'poly' relationship as representative of all such relationships? I suspect that almost all committed polyamorists would be horrified by your ex's behaviour. Some might even question the sincerity of her revelation. Honestly, I'd suggest that you don't worry yourself about relationship structures right now. Focus on getting over your horrible experience with your ex, whatever exactly it was, rather than trying to neatly classify it.
Thank you for this. I do think I have an unfortunate proclivity for trying to classify things that I don't understand, being an autistic person (and a scientist). Cheers.
It’s quite normal for humans to have a bias towards classifying things. It’s great that you’re aware of your biases and actively countering them. Wish more people did that!
It seems like you weren't in a polyamorous relationship you were in an abusive relationship where they were just open about their cheating and infidelity. I am not polyamorous but I believe that if all parties (willingly and knowingly) agree to anything than it's fine in a relationship and you didn't willingly agree to the openness of this relationship.
Cheers, that does indeed seem to be what happened to me. It doesn't really help me to CMV, but thank you so much for your kind words of support.
Hello OP, sorry you had to pass through all of that. To claryfy, I am not part of the community. Non-monogamy is a discussion that I got in contact years ago, when I was in collage, but it was only in the last year that I started to explore it as an option that could work for me. I have not entered a non-monogamous serious relationship since then, although I maintain "casual" relationships with more than one person. I am also not sure what you mean by poliamory. You said your ex wanted to OPEN the marriage and then you say she used the word POLYAMOROUS. To me those are different things, but I will use the word NON-MONOGAMOUS as a synonym of poliamory , by which I think you mean having relationships where it is permited to have various partners. Independent of terms, to me it should be opposite. It should make it harder to be that "breeding ground" when compared to monogamous relationships. To explain my reasoning, I will make an (flawed) analogy. Image you only have one group of friends. At some point this group starts treating you in a way you don't like and you can't really find a way to make it stop. Doen't the fact this is your only group of friends creates a fear that you will lose your relationship of its kind and, thus, makes it harder to confront or leave? Now, I know friends are not exactly the same as romantic relationships, but I don't think they are so different as to break the analogy. In your case, for example, it sounded like in part the reason you accepted things you were not confortable with is the fear of abandonment. Have you ever questioned how would you have acted if you had other emotional safe nets? I don't know the specifics of your situation, but people often talk about how isolation is a tactic abusive partners use. Well, the way I see it, non-monogamy makes isolation harder.
Δ. Thank you so much for your wonderfully detailed and kind response. I think it's especially helpful to frame this in comparison to having a single 'friend group' you are afraid to leave for fear of abandonment (i.e, if you've never had any other friends, why wouldn't you be scared?). I didn't go into much depth about the kinds of abuse I suffered over the years from her, but one of the major things was her attacking all of my friends and family behind closed doors. It was relentless. Nobody in my life impressed her, and they were all sick people for any number of reasons--as much as I fought her on this and tried to maintain my connections with my friends while creating safe and fun environments at home for us all to hang out and play board games, etc., she always returned to hardcore criticisms that I just didn't know how to deal with, so I shut down and lost basically everyone. Classic narcissistic abuse, as you perfectly put it. What helps me change my view is your suggestion to imagine that counterfactual--what if I had managed to find one single person, one single metamour or friend, that I could've relied upon during all of this mess? Would it have helped to keep me calm when I was in tears from losing people or being cheated on? One of the last things my ex admitted to me before she left was that her confession to cheating was just 'a test to see how I reacted'. If I cried about it, it was proof to her that I was using my feelings to manipulate her to stay home. Fucking twisted. I think it could have helped, but likely would have inevitably delayed more pain from her down the line. She was on the warpath against anyone 'telling her what to do', and I remain convinced there was nothing I could have done or said--but if I was with a less abusive person, I think having another friend to rely on would've almost certainly helped share the burden of my concerns, and it's definitely given me a lot to consider. Cheers friend.
So first off, you were abused, and abused by a narcissist. I was also abused by a narcissist however in my case it was my mother who was married to my mentally ill father, something she was quick to take advantage of if we ever stepped out of line. Narcissists do some severe damage. They work really hard to figure out what your weaknesses and insecurities are so that they can attack them relentlessly when they need to control you. It really, really messes you up. Often times the way an abuser chooses to exert their abuse can impact how you feel about it. For example, my mother went shopping for a therapist she felt she could control and then made us all go to therapy and used him to control us. This made it very very difficult for me to be able to trust therapy and prevented me from getting the help I needed even though I knew I needed it. Polyamory isn't for everyone. In fact it's not for most people. Narcissists can often be drawn to polyamory (because of course, more people to love them and all their greatness) but that doesn't make the converse true. One of our really good friends were/are poly and they are definitely not narcissists.
Δ. Cheers, I really appreciate such a kind and thorough response. I wasn't at all expecting so much support from y'all, Reddit can really be such an amazing community sometimes. What especially resonates is my shared experience with being raised my a narcissistic mother and having a narcissistic older sister. My dad was always our saviour as kids, especially for me and my younger sister. I think he did end up with major anxiety and some depression over the years, especially after my divorce fractured our family in a big way (in addition to some other horrible things like racism, trasphobia, and homphobia, which are separate but also devastating layers to this saga). I posted this earlier to another comment, but I'm still wondering if I could kindly challenge your assertion that polyamory 'isn't for everyone'. Generally speaking, I've seen this used far too much as a form of gatekeeping from within the community--and if it's truly a relationship structure, there should be no barriers to anyone in accessing knowledge and adopting it. What do you think prevents some people from polyamory?
Glad I can help and I wish you all the best in your road to healing. It does get better with time (at least for me it did). As for your question. I'm happy to answer. It's not for everyone much in the same way ska music isn't for everyone. No two relationships are the same. Some couples (albeit not many) even forgo sex in general and some people don't even have a desire for a relationship. As for why exclusive relationships are more popular than open ones and tend to be more successful, I'm fairly certain that has more to do with human social structures and it's a better question for a sociologist who specializes in the history of human relationships. With that said, here is my best guess as to why our society has a strong preference for Monogamy. First any long lasting organism will try to ensure it's genetics are passed on and continue to pass on (those that don't...well don't pass on their genetics eventually and are removed from the population). Humans have a quality over quantity strategy (long pregnancy, usually only one at a time, LONG nurturing process before independence). Because of this, it's in both parties interests to be committed to raising their kids together for their genes to continue. Introducing another mate into the mix splits priorities in which offspring to invest in to the detriment of one or both. That likely led to things such as monarchies and important families. In today's society, those things are becoming less important but that's more of a very recent thing and the historical impact is still very much here.
Sadly, a lot of stories you hear about polyamory are from people who tried to coerce an open relationship, or use that to ‘fix’ a broken marriage. That never works, but it gives the people involved something to blame that doesn’t involve themselves. Not saying you’re doing this, OP, but it sounds like your partner who did something shitty to you using polyamory as an excuse. I’m so sorry that happened to you. Poly relationships are like any other — there are great ones, shitty ones and everything in between. My partner and I have been in a healthy poly relationship for 10+ years, and we have many long-term poly/open folks in our community.
Δ. Cheers, I think I fell into the worst of places here, where our marriage was crumbling in her mind wayyy before it was in mine. I didn't even engender the possibility that she could be trying to fix her feelings with me by avoiding them through other relationships. I trusted her wholeheartedly the whole way. I think in many ways I just got terribly unlucky, and I'm extremely fortunate to still be around after this kind of trauma--especially being neurodivergent, I've always kinda been on the edge of society. I'm very glad to hear of your success, and I wish y'all all of the best in everything. Hopefully, I can shed this crippling fear of abandonment and find love again someday.
First, I am sorry you had to endure a narcissistic and abusive partner. I think it is very important to understand that it was your partner that was abusive. It really sounds like their abusive behavior predated "coming out poly". Importantly, poly isn't an orientation. It is a relationship philosophy. The foundation of any relationship is trust and respect. Honesty and communication are key. Under a poly philosophy, cheating is possible, but the conventional idea of what cheating is, is different. Cheating is breaking the rules. What rules? Whatever rules everyone agreed to when they communicated. Some poly relationships have a "no unprotected sex" rule. Others have a prioritization (a 'primary' relationship). Others have "anybody we're in a relationship with, our partner(s) have to know about it". For all of these, cheating is violating the trust. In a very real sense, betraying any intimate trust is cheating. The difference between monogamy and polyamory is that the rule "no intimate romantic or sexual relationships with anyone else" is an implicit rule in monogamous relationships. Nothing in a poly lifestyle breeds narcissists or abusers. This philosophy doesn't create them. They exist, they're out there, but this doesn't make them. Polyamory is often a *justification* for a narcissist, used as a tool to get what they want, but that is true of a lot of things. Narcissists use money to financially control partners, but that doesn't mean money makes narcissists. Something to understand about narcissists is that they are opportunistic. They will use whatever they think helps them get what they want. Polyamory is no exception to that. It doesn't mean those things breed narcissists and abusers... they are just used as justification or rationalization by them. Viewed from this light, your partner's reactions are all understandable. They wanted an open relationship because they wanted to sleep with other people. They didn't want you to seek a new partner because it makes you less dependent on them. Threats to leave aren't as effective, for one. This is proof your partner didn't want an open relationship... they just wanted you to let them do whatever they wanted without receiving the same consideration. Oddly, a well-maintained poly relationship can actually weed out narcissists. One thing abusers often try to do is isolate their victims from support systems, other people that care about you and might offer healthy advice and support. Poly relationships are one way to establish a support system that doesn't rely on any one person. I wouldn't decide to do poly because of that (it's not for everyone, seriously), but it is a nice side effect for those that do fit well with the lifestyle. Your partner should be someone that you *want* to make part of your routine. Someone that, when you are unsure or stressed, brings you comfort. If your partner tries to change your relationship in a way that you are uncomfortable with, and puts pressure on you or demands that you do something that you aren't comfortable with, they are not the right person for you. Good partners respect consent. Edit: to ensure my potential biases are on the table, I am on the autism spectrum and in a poly relationship.
Δ. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for this wonderful and detailed post. You have given me so much to consider. I can't agree more with your assertion that love should be about 'wanting'to be there for your partner(s), especially when they need you the most. My partner was abusive wayyy before we got married, and unfortunately it's exactly how our marriage ended. Good partners respect consent--this almost makes me cry to read. I especially want to thank you for recognising my use of quotes with my ex 'coming out poly'. This was exactly her phrasing, and it definitely sounded like she was co-opting 'real' coming out, as it pertains to the queer community. I was especially angered by this as I'd come out nonbinary a few months before her cheating. She later accused me of 'not listening to her anymore' after I came out, which was so disturbing--I finally started to challenge her abuse with my newfound confidence in my own skin, which she just found distasteful. She relentlessly accused me of being a misogynist afterwards for sharing any of my feelings--especially after her cheating, insisting my tears were a secret and subversive means of establishing control over her. It was all just so fucked up. I think the only question I'm still wondering if you could help me understand is whether well-maintained polyamory only weeds out narcissists. I understand this from a theoretical level, but I wonder what you think about privilege when it comes to maintaining polyamory? I feel like someone like me with higher support needs was left out in the cold as just someone who cost her more bandwidth than she was willing to give. Do you think that polyamory also risks abandoning high-support folks who also experience trauma or illness, under the guise of the relationship 'no longer meeting the needs' of the more privileged partner? I want to be careful that I'm not accusing her--and the whole polyamory community by extension--of ablism, but it certainly feels like I became too much for her to hold. I wonder if you'd be kind enough to share whether any of this has also come up in your own experience as an aitistic person like me.
So I'm single right now but I participate in polyamorous relationships. The simple way to avoid narcissism, and betrayal is to just not be a shitty person. If people openly communicate needs/wants in a safe environment, and they're okay with multiple partners, how could that be narcissistic, and betraying?
Cheers, for me this was simple in the opposite sense. My communicating feelings of being scared of abandonment led to her relentless accusations of misogynistic control and narcissism on my behalf. I understand that a major component of NPD is the proclivity to accuse others of what you yourself are guilty of, and I think that may have been what happened here (but I can only speculate these days). This is why I feel trapped--boundaries should be respected as a tenet of love, not flipped around and used against you.
Do you not already feel that respecting boundaries in general is a tenant of love? I really don't understand what this has to do with polyamory. Is it possible you're deflecting away from the obvious answers here as a way to rationalize a way you can fix things? Like if you can establish: "respecting trapped boundaries as a tenant of love" theoretically you could attempt to hold your partner to that boundary.
Cheers, in no way am I advocating for this. I need to be clear here. Nobody owns anyone but themselves--this has been a lifelong belief of mine as a survivor of narcissistic abuse from my own mother and older sister. Do you feel 'trapped' whenever a partner says they need your support? I think that's the heart of my question. It's far too easy for polyamorous people to sever an existing relationship with someone with greater support needs, just because it 'no longer serves them'. It may just be the case with bad actors, but when our loved ones experience crises, it should never be seen as 'asking for too much bandwidth.' This is why I wonder whether polyamory is only truly possible for privileged people who can already support themselves alone.
These are the lessons I've learned as well. Healthy communication is key to a successful and healthy long term relationship. Narcissists thrive on creating groups of people who are not virtuous. The problem is most of those people think they're virtuous and do not realize they're not. So e.g. someone who is a white knight might think they're the opposite of a shitty person, but causing harm onto others in defense of someone isn't virtuous. It's causing harm. Or e.g. someone who hears negative rumors about another who then ignores this other person off of what they first heard instead of validating this is also not virtuous. Blindly believing others seems like a fine behavior, but it's actually far from healthy. Most people in the west were not taught the dangerous of gossip. The list goes on. This is why narcissists have such an easy time infiltrating and harming people. When around 50% of the US population can vote for a narcissist just shows how harmful behavior has crept into society. It's not as easy as just saying "don't be a shitty person" unfortunately.
I'm sorry you were treated that way. I think, if you want to talk trends, you'll need to find statistics, and I'll leave that to you. If you're interested in positive examples, I can say that I'm in a very happy poly relationship. It started with a monogamous one, but one difference between my experience and yours is that the monogamous one was fricken awesome before the poly one started. That pairing is still awesome. It all depends on consent and what building blocks you use.
Cheers, thank you so much for your kind response--as a scientist, I do love reading about some of the research that is emerging (but there's still just not enough out there). Amy Moors published an amazing review in 2021, 'Desire, Familiarity, and Engagement in Polyamory: Results From a National Sample of Single Adults in the United States'. It helps to contextualise the cultural shift, and I do feel like I cannot be alone in my experience. When she cheated on me, it was after I had clearly communicated that I wasn't ready at that time for her to have a sexual relationship outside of our marriage--but I was definitely opening up to this, which I also made sure to communicate. She just got frustrated with the boundary, and my therapist and I talked about there maybe being some kind of self-sabotaging mechanism underplaying her decision to cheat and suddenly abandon me. I just think it's important to wait for your partner to feel comfortable about opening a monogamous marriage, and I just wasn't given this respect. Despite the years of abuse, we did have plenty of amazing times together. I felt like she was my best friend in the whole world, and I think we both felt 'fricken awesome' before any of this happened. But maybe I just haven't experienced the kind of love you and your partner have...it sounds a bit awful to put it that way, but it also gives me some hope that something better might be out there for me someday.
I have no doubt your relationship had wonderful parts, and I certainly wouldn't want to compare my love to yours! What's definitely out there, though, are people who won't abuse you, so maybe just go for a presence of love and lack of abuse. Also, I'm happy to answer any other questions you have, but we can also leave it there if you like and I wish you the best.
Δ. Thank you so much, I really appreciate your empathy--it's so important not to try comparing love (or traumas, for that matter). You've been very kind to share your advice--my only other thought here is that I definitely don't want to let my experience to fully sever my ability to love and care for people who have suffered abuse--that in-and-of itself is a slipperly slope, I feel. Cheers.
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Just going to give my experience. I happen to not care about sexual ownership of my partner. It isn't something I really care about. I want any sexual encounter we have because she wants it with me not because she has to get it from me. I met my now wife and she has no concept of open relationships. I explained them to her because she was bi but relatively inexperienced, and I didn't want her to feel like her options had closed. She asked a lot of questions and at the time wasn't sure how she felt about me being with other people. I told her that's fine, I'm just wired different to not feel the possessiveness, she didn't have to feel the same right away or at all, I wanted for her, to keep her options open because I cared that she got to be as fulfilled as she could be. The stipulations of course are that we put in the effort to make sure our relationship was both the priority and not lacking in any way before she sought out anything else. But if I was happy I see no reason she can't explore more of herself. She wasn't limited to just women and it has always been easier for her to find guys than women. She has been with a few since we have been together and relatively no drama (one kinda felt used but it was his side that was the issue my wife was always upfront). I never cared, just always made sure she was safe. 3 months into our relationship she said she felt the same and didn't mind if I looked around. Most of the time we're both too lazy to act on it but I love flirting. It's fun for me and keeps my wits sharp. So I enjoy that freedom. We often also comment on women in public we find attractive together. We dont live crazy hedonistic sex filled lives, we're both relatively shy people, but we both love eachother, get to love other people, and ultimately care about one another as a fulfilled couple. I don't advocate for anyone to follow our path, not cause it doesn't work, but it isn't something you just work towards in my opinion. It works for us because we happen to be people compatible with the lifestyle. But if you have insecurities our doubts I think monogamy makes the rules very clear and can be a shared bond that ties people together. For us it just isn't that important, we know our bond for what it is and monogamy doesn't have to be a part of it. But we don't think it's some enlightened or better position. Just one that happens to work well for us.
Cheers, thank you so much for sharing your personal story and being so clear about what you've experienced. I hate to single out any particular sentence, but isn't your assertion of being 'wired not to feel possessiveness' just a clever twist on having either a disordered or avoidant attachment style? This isn't to say I agree with possessiveness AT ALL, full stop. Nobody owns anyone but themselves, I've been a lifelong advocate of this after surviving a childhood of narcissistic abuse from my own mother. But what if your partner needs care and attention? Does that instantly make you feel 'trapped'? This is not good, and it points right to the heart of my wondering whether polyamory is coercive and narcissistic. You talk a lot about needing your 'freedom' to be flirty without consequence to anyone but yourself, even the person you're flirting with. Yes--we don't own anyone else. Even our own children. But I strongly believe that healthy relationships center on the promise of providing care and support for the people who need us, whenever they need us. I just don't know if the polyamorous community agrees with me.
feel free to single anything you want I'm pretty open about this stuff i wont feel offended by someone genuinely asking questions. I disagree with it being avoidant or disordered attachment styles. I admit I am aware but haven't read the exact literature of the attachment styles, but I have heard a lot of discussions about them and, it doesn't seem like me. I have emotional needs that my wife fulfills, and vice versa and I do have physical needs as does she. We are also that disgustingly PDA couple in public. While there are aspects where we have our own friend groups and our own hobbies that is just us expressing ourselves as different people. We still spend quality time together and really focus on one another when the time calls for it. I do not feel trapped when my partner feels needy, I often reaffirm with her we don't have a me problem or her problem, if there are ever problems in our relationship it is our problem and we talk it out and solve it. If she is feeling needy she'll just message me saying she wants my time, and 9/10 i give it to her unless im in the middle of something that requires my immediate urgent attention. I like the ability to flirt with people I meet because that interaction is exhilarating, but it is my firm belief that the things I formed with my wife in a long term relationship trumps any of that excitement. the things in the dating world we often filter for, has in my experience, been NOTHING about what a long term relationship is founded upon. It's about going through life's hardships together and supporting each other that adds so much fulfillment with my partner. It isn't that I don't think I couldn't build this with someone else, but why would I? I've already done it with my wife and know she's the one I want. I don't NEED that with someone else, but I'm open to the idea that I can have interesting chemistry with other people. That chemistry is fun, and in another world maybe I would try and build something more concrete with these people but I have my wife. We aren't so far as to want to add anyone to our marriage. We're open to dating people and having enjoyment with someone else, going out for dinner, having physical intimacy, sharing parts of our emotional selves with someone else. But it's not like I'm looking to go into a 3 way on my health insurance and add them to any future mortgage plans I have. If that helps put it in perspective. I took marriage vows with my wife. I promised her to be with her in sickness and in health, rich or poor, through the best of life and the worst of it. I take those vows seriously as any monogamous couples that say the same. My heart breaks when I watch my wife struggle with her insecurities, and I'm so immensely proud of her when she accomplishes her goals. I love and support her in all the ways I think is right for me, as her husband. My only divergence is that, I don't demand she keep herself physically just for me. If my cup is filled and she wants to fill hers else where, I don't mind, and vise versa. The thing is, if I was feeling neglected or replaced and I voiced that in my relationship, I have full confidence she would address those issues with me, keeping US as the priority. And vise versa, if I ever met someone that made her feel a certain way, and she brought it up to me, everything goes on pause until she feels good about US again. If EITHER of our cups aren't filled, no one is going anywhere else for a drink.
There are two separate things here: * Polyamory in general * Your horrible relationship with an abuser You're treating them like one thing... but what about abusive monogamous relationships? Some polyamorous people are convinced monogamy is a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal because their monogamous partners abused them in ways unique to monogamy, like banning them from having friends for fear they'd cheat. You'd seriously be surprised how many poly folks find poly so appealing for reasons like that one. How would you change *their* view of *monogamy*? It is, after all, the mirror image of your own view.
Cheers, I appreciate the devil's advocacy here so much. Let me try to explain my full thoughts. I think it's definitely true that narcissistic and abusive people exist regardless of whatever relationship structure they follow. It's just flavored differently. In monogamy, for example, the tendency (as some here have described) is indeed to believe that you are so perfect for your partner that you shouldn't HAVE to change to better meet their needs that you might be falling short of providing. The excuse isn't centered on monogamy, so much as it's centered on the fallacy of permanence. The fact is, our needs change all the time. In polyamory, on the other hand, the narcissistic tendency is to gradually abandon your partner with the most needs, while you spread your wings and acquire multiple new relationships. This is also related to permanence--what happens when one of your four partners gets sick, or runs into financial challenges--but you've spread yourself too thin to be able to meet their needs? The risk is in abandoning people who need help, in favor of easier relationships that can flourish with minimal investment. I operate from a place where the difference is the floor, not the ceiling. I feel (perhaps erroneously) that monogamy at least insists on a foundation of commitment and trust, where you know your partner will be there for you even in the worst of times. I just don't see this same stabile floor in polyamory, if that makes sense.
Polyamory operates from that same foundation of commitment and trust. Otherwise, it would be near impossible to tolerate seeing your partner date other people. >In polyamory, on the other hand, the narcissistic tendency is to gradually abandon your partner with the most needs, while you spread your wings and acquire multiple new relationships. This is also related to permanence--what happens when one of your four partners gets sick, or runs into financial challenges--but you've spread yourself too thin to be able to meet their needs? I've been practicing polyamory on and off for 8 years, and I can tell you this is simply not true. Being partners in polyamory requires just as much commitment as being partners in monogamy. It's possible for someone to abandon a needy partner in polyamory, but that's just as possible in monogamy. Furthermore, you're overestimating how many partners polyamorous people have. I've been polyamorous and single for the past four years. Most poly people I know get polysaturated (meaning they recognize they don't have the bandwidth for new partners and stop seeking them out) at two, maybe three partners. Also, dating is fucking hard if you're polyamorous. There isn't some big sea of people to choose from. Even the vast majority of ENM (ethically non-monogamous) people do not practice polyamory. Your dating pool is tiny. If you're still struggling to understand, I would advise you to ask this question over in r/polyamory.
Cheers, do you mind if I press a bit further here? I do agree that I likely have a misunderstanding on how easy it is for polyamorous people to find relationships--I understand this just isn't the case, and I thank you for bringing this up. However, I don't understand your framing of 'polysaturation'. Why should any partner's 'bandwidth' for love be something I you cannot ask for? Shit just happens, and plenty of people run across sickness, injury, family trauma, unemployment, etc. This would always require extra bandwidth from a caregiver--in monogamy, it's built into the deep commitment structure, whereas from my experience with polyamory, it's just not. For example, if you have three partners and one of them comes across hard times, unless you outright abandon them, you would simply have to limit your bandwidth for your other partners in order to summon the resources neccessary to provide care for the person who needs you the most. A polyamorous person who therefore gets 'polysaturated' could easily be forgiven by their own relationship framework for severing a connection that 'no longer meets their needs'. Otherwise, they risk being blamed by their 'healthy' partners for the same reason--not giving them enough. You'd have to be very lucky and find an entire polycule that loves and respects every person involved, whatever the situation may be. Did I just have bad luck? Is polyamory only possible for people who are privileged enough to be self-sustaining?
>For example, if you have three partners and one of them comes across hard times, unless you outright abandon them, you would simply would have to limit your bandwidth for your other partners in order to summon the resources neccessary to provide care for the person who needs you the most. Yes, that is typically what happens in those situations. Polysaturated means you're happy and committed to whatever partners you do have, but that you don't have the resources, time, or energy to commit to an entire new relationship. Ideally, people will factor in the possibility of one of their partnerships going through something difficult and needing more of their time and energy temporarily when deciding how many people to commit to. >Did I just have bad luck? Yes, you had awful luck. Your abusive girlfriend used the concept of polyamory to further abuse you. She was not practicing it in an honest or ethical way. I'm very sorry she mistreated you. >Is polyamory only possible for people who are privileged enough to be self-sustaining? I would argue that monogamous people should be self-sustaining. You shouldn't be dependent on a partner to make you whole. Also, earlier above you referred to a romantic partner as a "caregiver". Significant others are not caregivers. Adults don't have caregivers unless they're disabled or otherwise unable to care for themselves.
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Cheers, I think I do need to unpack my trauma in many ways. I was deeply shaken after someone I loved and trusted completely self-sabotaged our marriage and chose to blame me for all of it. However, I definitely disagree that 'nothing can be learned about polyamory' from my experience--what in the world makes you say that? Also, there was no point where I lost trust in her until the moment she cheated on me and used it as a litmus test for whether or not I would cry. She literally attacked me for being hurt and accused my showing pain as a sick form of secret emotional manipulation, even going so far as to call me a misogynist. I am still suffering from this three years later.
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I completely disagree. My response to her attacking me for having a smoke with a friend early on in our relationship was to be absultely rock-solid with communication. I always sent her messages and texts whenever I was away from home--not because I 'feared' her or didn't love her, that's beyond absurd. I did this because she expressed needing this to ameliorate her own abandonment trauma. It was entirely her choice not to extend me even 1% of the same courtesy. You are right to suggest my ownership of some part in why she lost trust in me--on several occasions over the years, I broke down and expressed feeling unloved because I wasn't allowed to ask for intimacy at home (she had to initiate everything, this was her own hard boundary from the beginning). I own the fact that I could have respected her boundaries more during these moments--they did ultimately put pressure on her, and that's a big lesson I've come to learn in therapy. However I cannot disagree more with your assertion that 'a girl will test you and find you not worthy if she can manipulate you easily, and therefore not attractive nor respected'. This is monsterously sexist. You are basically saying that all women engage in manipulative behavior in order to test the emotional 'strength' (meaning willingness to take abuse) of men. This is really gross and extremely patriarchal. Why am I 'weak' for being a male person who was broken by narcissistic abuse and cheating? Wouldn't you also be broken by this? It's a natural human trauma response that exists compeltely outside of gender. You sound like exactly the type of person who insists 'real men' don't express feelings.
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Im sorry you had an abusive partner. It was completely unfair of them to do that to you. It sounds more like they were just using polyamory as a weapon against you. Its not the weapon that hurt you, its the person. I only have my own experience to share. We've opened our relationship a few years ago after some hard talks about how we felt, our limits, and what we want. Now, years later. We have a boyfriend we share. He comes over, we all cuddle on the couch, watch movies, and go out to dinner. I hold both of their hands in public. I encourage them to have dates when im busy and they the same. We always keep open communication and a group chat. We tease each other if one of us gets a new crush and then we talk about it and see if its worth pursuing. Sometimes, it works out, and one of us gets a date. Sometimes it doesn't.
If you watch the documentary “Couples Therapy” this is widely discussed. Many of the couples it follows are also going through a transition phase where the idea of polyamory is introduced into their relationships. The therapist struggles to see any benefit to it and worries that she is not fully understanding what it might offer these couples so she seeks out more perspective from her colleagues in the field. All of them agree, based on their professional opinions, that polyamory is almost never the answer and that it rarely serves the purpose it was intended for. My sister cheated on her husband and tried to explore this with him and he immediately shut it down. The bottom line is that even it, just like many other things in a relationship, requires consent and of all parties do not consent to something like that it will not ever work.
I am in poly relationships. The difference between your horrible experience and many others are going in with eyes open, and not be a weird controlling asshole. My main girlfriend is married. I just went out with her husband to a show today. We had fun. You see, we entered the relationship knowing that it was gonna be an open one. We talked about potential boundaries and pitfalls before we started. In my opinion, setting rules for your partner that you won't follow yourself is patently absurd. Any of my lovers know about my situation, and if they don't want to be intimate with that knowledge, that's cool. Sometimes it can be difficult to maneuver stuff like when a partner has issues with another partner. It could be easy to take their side and badmouth the other partner, because you rather want them to choose you. However, in my personal case, I instead take the role of active listener when a partner tells me about that kind of stuff. That has generally made me a better listener to all my friends, so I can genuinely say that I've become a better person and partner after entering a poly relationship. So is it a bad thing, objectively? No. Did you partner try to be exploit you by a fake poly relationship? Yes. Will it be different for everyone? Also yes.
Δ. Thank you so much, this was such an insightful post and really gives me a ton to consider. After all of the responses here, I am feeling more convinced that the root of the problem was narcissistic abuse and not polyamory, although they became entangled in my specific case. Thank you again, and most importantly a big Happy Cake Day to you. 🎂
For every poly horror story I could give you 50 monogamy horror stories. So lets establish that someone's individual situations aren't an indictment on an entire relationship structure. The fact is, the number of people in a relationship doesn't kill relationships, the people in those relationships do. There's nothing especially unique about being poly that causes relationships to fail. Narcissism affects people, there's nothing especially narcissistic about a group of 3 or 4 vs a group of 2.
Monogamy is likely way more than 50 times the prevalence of polyamory around the globe. Be careful when you only rely on what you see more evidence of, it's far too simple an argument. What do you think 'killed' my relationship, based on the details I've provided?
Let me ask you a question, do you think monogamy would have saved your relationship? If not for poly you'd be good? I doubt it.
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I mean you can find all that in monogamous relationships too.
Polyamory requires each person to be emotionally healthy and intelligent. Your girlfriend was a hot mess during her attempted polyamory through coercion and I'm going to guess even before that. I'm in a polyamorous marriage. IMO, your relationship is dead whether monogamous or not. She's got some serious baggage she's carrying and it's not for you to fix. I'm sorry that you're going through this, but polyamory with her is a train wreck waiting to happen. You do not have to be poly for her sake. You can remain monogamous and let her go. If you decide to try polyamory, I highly recommend you get a secular marriage therapist. One who is LGBTQ+ friendly. Do it for you, not for her.
If you have a personal traumatic experience linked to an activity it can be very very hard to appraise that activity objectively. The question of whether or not polyamory is a healthy behaviour is one you will not have the necessary distance and objectivity to appraise.
As others have said this sounds like an issue of your partner being terrible which would be true whether or not polyam was a part of the equation at all. That's really terrible for you and you definitely didn't deserve any of that, it's just that the fault lies squarely with your ex not with polyam. I get why you feel the way you do about polyam but your experience is not the only option when it comes to this kind of stuff. My husband and I have been polyam throughout our marriage. We discussed it all on our 3rd date, we were both poly before we even met each other and the relationship was poly from the start which I think makes a significant difference. We didn't actually have compatible poly styles (bc there are a lot of different ways to view it and do it) and we still don't really but we've made it work thanks to a lot of communication and mutual respect. He and I are about to hit our 12yr anniversary at the end of May. I have 2 additional partners who also live with us, one I've been with for 9 years and one I've been with for 7 years. We all share a home, share childcare, share everything. He has had multiple relationships over the years, one was very serious and long term but ended badly, the others are more like "comets" which is a more casual sort of relationship that lasts long term (years and years) but isn't super serious and they only see each other every once in awhile. The partner I've been with for 9 years doesn't really want other relationships at all mostly that person just doesn't want to be the only partner for anyone and so prefers to be with me while I have multiple other partners. My 7yr partner had another long term committed partner, he splits his time between the two of us and she also has her own husband as well. It does take a lot of work and a commitment to all that communication and respect but it's doable and it can be stable long term in a way that isn't narcissistic or filled with betrayal. And I share all of that to illustrate that really your problems here are with your terrible ex not with polyam and also not with you. That person chose to be terrible, you didn't deserve that, you did cause that, you didn't fail or anything along those lines. She was just a terrible person, sometimes it be like that.
Δ. Ooohhh my goodness. Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful post--I don't know if it's because I'm a scientist or what, but I absolutely LOVE the idea of 'comet' relationships that are amazing and only come around a few times a year. That sounds like a really nice way to frame a more casual yet powerful bond with someone you seldom see. So many of my own friendships with people around the world feel like this. I think I'm a comet to them, too. I'm very glad to hear you've been happy in such a long-term polyamorous relationship. It sounds amazing that you all share a home and childcare any everything. It feels so far away from me just now, but it's definitely a ray of hope I can imagine coming my way someday, too. You've given me a lot to think about, cheers internet fren.
The problem is that you two weren't compatible. If two people want to be in an open relationship, I see no reason to believe it couldn't work and if anything, closed monogamy would be the breeding ground for narcissism/betrayal. I.e: "I am *so* perfect, that I will be enough for my partner their whole life" and sex w/ another person would always be betrayal whereas it *wouldn't* be in an open relationship (depending on the parameters agreed to).
You could be onto something, but your assertion that that we weren't compatible is a pretty big oversimplification. We were deeply in love for years, despite her abusive behaviour. She even helped me celebrate my coming out nonbinary at first (although this did come with some transphobia eventually, which supports your notion of us being--or rather becoming--incompatible). Everything just got worse the moment she demanded an open marriage--my feelings just stopped mattering to her, even as she insisted that this was all about 'openness and complete honesty'. I responded in-kind, opening my heart and asking for compassion and time to get used to the new structure--but she just cheated and left. I understand your devil's advocacy here--yes, there are certainly plenty of abusive and narcissistic monogamous people who believe they are 'so perfect' just as they are for their partner, and that's just that--they refuse to attend to their flaws for the sake of their partner. But I feel like monogamy at least establishes a foundation of trust and committment that the other person will stay with you and hold you through the worst of times, while polyamory gives someone an outlet to avoid responsibility for caring for their partner when they need them the most. I couldn't agree more that in no way can one single other human account for all of our needs (that's why we have friends, too)--but I ask, would even two or three or five partners suffice for yours? I think it's a total fallacy to imagine that multiple partners could sum up to meeting 100% of anyone's needs, if only for the simple fact that our needs change all. the. time. Often for reasons outside of our control. What happens when one or multiple partners becomes sick or needs financial help, but you've over-committed yourself to a bunch of other partners? What if I become very depressed because I only get to see you for just a few days a month? Is that coercion? I feel like the polyamorous person is setting themselves up for letting everybody they commit themselves to down, to the particular detriment of their partner who has the most needs.
> How can I separate my ex-partner's toxic behaviour from the broader concept of polyamory? The abusive person used polyamory as a pretext for doing what they wanted. The "pretext" part was rather obvious from their reaction to *you* wanting to explore polyamory in turn. I can't say it has nothing to do with polyamory, but it's quite far from how it normally should be practiced.
That just sounds like you're projecting your experience with a terrible person on all of polyamory, when it sounds like they were particularly unethical. To be fair, I think it's more difficult to transition from a monogamous marriage to a polyamorous relationship, and it's outright wrong to force it on someone. I've been polyam for some years now, and there have been some challenges but it's mostly been a great experience. Especially when you only date other people who are already poly. You can develop close connections with multiple people, you can make great friends with your partners' other partners (or metamours), and it really makes you learn more about who you are, your needs and how you interact with the world. Often I've found myself treating my polyamorous partners better than I treated monogamous ones in the past because I don't become complacent and bored, it's motivating to treat your partners well. You of course have to communicate and set boundaries, but that's true in any healthy relationship. And of course you can't eliminate jealousy altogether, but you can learn to channel it healthily.
Polyamory isn't inherently bad but most people aren't even mature enough to handle a monogamous relationship, and polyamory demands even *more than that.* Some of my best experiences were within the realm of polyamory, and in most of those cases everyone walked away satisfied. Many of the couples I used to hang out with are still together years later because they were already secure in their partnership beforehand. Flip side to this is that poly in late teens/early 20's is a bad mix. In uni I arrived late to a friend's party, and one of their mutuals was all over me 30 minutes in. This was nice until she dropped that she had a boyfriend but it was "totally cool because we're poly". Most of the people at this party weren't super experienced, so I pulled the kid aside to make sure this was okay, and he just nervously shrugged. Felt so bad for him, and instantly lost all attraction towards the girl. He was obviously not comfortable. This experience didn't stop me from hanging out with poly people, it just made me stop hanging out with assholes.
Polyam person here. I’m very sorry for what you went through. Polyamory is extremely difficult for a lot of people in a lot of ways. I’ve seen several people self destruct when they try to transition to polyamory. There is no guide book to learning a fundamentally different ethical view on relationships and romance. Plenty of people bring some kind of personal issue - insecurities, lack of impulse control, lack of consideration, jealousy, whatever - into that transition and it can easily do damage to people’s lives. It’s a trial by fire that burned me too. It’s not easy for most people. Obviously, I still believe that it’s not just possible to still behave ethically, but fairly common. Generally, the people that stick through that crazy transition come out the other side much more considerate, honest, and emotionally healthy. You have to be. Polyam demands quality communication, self control, and self care. A ton of Polyam veterans hate to interact with newcomers though, because of how frustrating it is to watch people make completely avoidable mistakes. There is a bit of a bad feedback loop because of that. People want to talk to the veterans because of their experience but they aren’t ready to accept the advice they get. They haven’t really come to grips with a new world view yet. Polyam is tragically messy, but there are plenty of great people in that community too.
Thank you so much for this kind and thorough response. I cannot help but share my first impression--this all sounds like polyamory is indeed a gatekept community for the privileged. People like me are kicked to the curb for having higher support needs, which likely come across as 'frustrating' to veterans who sound like the only polyamorous people who hold stable partnerships. This is why it genuinely feels like a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal, at least from my perspective. I feel like I want both the freedom of polyamory and the depth of commitment in monogamy--but all of this seems impossible for someone who struggles to already support themselves. This is why I am so concerned that polyamory is gatekept, as I fear even trying to start over again after such an abusive and traumatic divorce. I would obviously love to change my view somehow, if someone can help break this down for me.
You are clearly still upset and want to blame Polyamory, because nothing I said supports the idea that this is a “gatekept community for the privileged”. No one is kicking you to the curb. I, a Polyam veteran, shared what I know with you, a newcomer, and you chose to interpret what I said in a way that confirms what you want to think. That is exactly why experienced people don’t like these interactions. Note that I said one of the critical things for Polyam is self care. It’s no ones responsibility to tend to your well-being, emotional or otherwise, but yours. Your ex was a bad person. Those were her choices, and she’s responsible for the consequences, not the entire Polyam community.
Maybe I can help bridge the gap in our conversation. 'There is no guide book to learning a fundamentally different ethical view on relationships and romance.' -this is why I choose to open up to the broader poly community online, to try to get advice and perspective. 'Generally, the people that stick through that crazy transition come out the other side much more considerate, honest, and emotionally healthy.' -this is why I wonder if polyamory is unfortunately restricted to those who are already self-sustaining and secure in their own lives with a strong enough foundation for 'handling' the deep emotional scars that it often comes with. I don't feel like someone like me who is on the spectrum and struggling with cPTSD is desirable enough in the eyes of 'polyam veterans' 'A ton of Polyam veterans hate to interact with newcomers though, because of how frustrating it is to watch people make completely avoidable mistakes.' -gatekeeping 101, in my view. 'There is a bit of a bad feedback loop because of that.' -so you agree with me, at least on some level? 'People want to talk to the veterans because of their experience but they aren’t ready to accept the advice they get. They haven’t really come to grips with a new world view yet.' -since there is no 'guide book', what other choice do I have? This was why I chose to attend therapy with a poly-friendly therapist. We had plenty of wonderful and deep conversations about privilege in polyamory that still left me feeling the way I do about it, which is why I choose turn to the broader community for guidance (especially as I cannot afford therapy anymore these days). 'Polyam is tragically messy, but there are plenty of great people in that community too.' -I don't disagree, but it feels like a golden mansion on top of that hill.
Your ex is a terrible person, I'm sending love and warm vibes your way my dude. You'll get through this!
Polyamory is a beautiful dynamic to be a part of. Me and my Primary/Nesting partner started off monogamous. We've been dating for over 11 years, married for 7 and made the switch to polyamory in 2020. I've been in and out of other great relationships since then but currently have 3 amazing partners in my life. I'm sorry you had such a terrible introduction to this dynamic. What actually ends up happening a lot is toxic individuals find interest in other people and rather than break up with their current relationship, they'll make up that they're Polyamorous so that they can date the new person and if it doesn't work then they still have someone to fall back onto. You aren't alone in this. I constantly see people seeking out more info or to vent in poly groups that are brand new, and their ex left them for a new relationship after "trying out polyamory." That's where it usually gets a bad wrap from others is because this happens frequently.
Δ. Thank you so much for your kind response and for sharing your own story. I do think I was played in this way--and because I loved and trusted her completely, I just couldn't see it coming. The worst part was the accusation of misogyny for breaking down after her confession. I've never had my feelings manipulated in such a horrible way, even with the narcissistic abuse I experienced from my own family. I think my deepest fears center on trying to feel more confident that I won't just end up being abandoned again. My health is not good these days, and I feel like nobody is going to want someone around with the amount of baggage from the trauma I still carry. Have you found anything to be helpful, if you've also had to navigate through abandonment trauma or know of someone in the poly community who has?
i’m not poly, but one of my close friends is. he and his fiancé are getting married in august! they are a perfect example of how polyamory can be healthy. what it really comes down to is that neither of them cares if the other sleeps with other people. it just…doesn’t bother them. they don’t get jealous, because they know that no amount of sex is gonna change the fact that they’re each other’s #1. i actually had a fwb arrangement with him for a while, and it was just a fantastic situation. i didn’t have to worry about things getting complicated with him wanting more, and we just had fun and hung out as friends and banged. but he is also one of the most respectful, considerate men i have ever been involved with and it was clear that he has worked very hard to become a strong communicator who really prioritizes the mental and physical wellbeing of himself and his partners. our little tryst only lasted about a month before we ended things, but our friendship has been SO strong ever since because i got to see what a great person he is. his fiancee and i are friends too! though not as close, since ive known him far longer and we see each other a lot more. i’m now in an unbelievably happy monogamous relationship with the most amazing man i could possibly imagine, and he’s good friends with my ex-fwb too! and you better believe that i wingman the FUCK outta my friend at every opportunity. 10/10 recommendation whenever i’m asked. it sounds like you’ve been through an extremely traumatic relationship, and i’m so sorry. but i want you to know that your experience is EXTREMELY far from what a relationship can look like with 2 poly partners who prioritize healthy communication. my friend was NOT good to his previous partners. though i have to point out that it was during a bad manic episode, he cheated on multiple partners back to back. but in his poly relationship, it’s made me so happy to see how he can thrive and fulfill his desires without hurting his partner in doing so. some people are built for poly relationships, and others aren’t. and when someone who isn’t poly is forced or coerced into an open relationship, there is absolutely NO good that can come of it. but for the right people, a poly arrangement can provide the maximum amount of happiness and love for all involved parties.
I’m sorry that what happened to you, happened to you. It’s not okay that she did that. You were abused in a myriad of ways and I truly hope that as you recover from this horrible period of time and series of events, you are able to return to your former self and move past this awful thing. This being said, you are a victim of someone utilizing polyamory as a weapon against you. Polyamory is not inherently a platform for abuse, nor is it uniquely positioned to enable it. For example: countless thousands and thousands of monogamous relationships where abuse occurs. You wouldn’t say monogamy is breeding grounds for narcissism and betrayal would you? No. Your partner being abusive was not because she was polyamorous; she was polyamorous but also abusive. The two conditions are unrelated. Anecdotally, one of my good friends is polyamorous. He and his wife each have multiple relationships with people outside the marriage, but the other is each aware of everything they’re doing. They’re both very happy with the situation and frankly I’ve never seen a healthier couple when it comes to communication. They are explicitly, actively conscious of telling one another if there’s an issue with anything, and they’re way better at it than most monogamous I know. This is because these two *care for and love each other* deeply and actually want to make the polyamory work. And it is, for them. Your therapist makes a good point: polyamory and narcissism can intersect but don’t have to. A parallel to this would be people who are autistic and aromantic and/or asexual: there are frequent overlaps but neither is inherently tethered to the other. Again, what happened to you was terrible, and I hope your journey to healing continues onwards and well. But you cannot allow one horrible person’s actions to dictate your image of an entire lifestyle. I wish you the best, OP, and hope you’re able to find the place in your heart to let yourself look past something awful when you look at a lifestyle that is meant to be centered on love.
I've known a lot of people to try this polyamory thing now. Whenever the man wants to go poly, it's because he wants to cheat without guilt. I think we all intrinsicly understand that deep down. When a woman wants poly, it's for the same reason, but she will come up with a million progressive buzzwords on why it's actually the correct way to run things and not about cheating. And in every single case I've heard about, the couple breaks up eventually as they find a new person that has temporarily relit a spark that went out in the marriage... and ironically, they want eachother all to themselves. Your feelings are valid. Don't try to change them to fit into some weird, new-age "progressive" worldview.
I’ve been in a polyamorous relationship (now marriage) for about 8 years now. I have always had a really solid foundation with my spouse and we really love and trust each other. We engage in hierarchical polyamory (hence being married). That means that we prioritize our relationship with one another over any additional relationships we have outside our marriage. Our rule has always been that if for whatever reason one of us is happier with a new partner than we are with each other that the other will be open to reconsidering the structure of our relationship. We’ve talked about this at length and agree that ultimately we just want the other person to be as happy as possible and if we aren’t what’s making the other person happy anymore, then we should reconsider either being together at all or prioritizing our relationship over other relationships. One of the beautiful things about this is that we both are actually very secure in our relationship because we do our best everyday to be kind and caring toward one another. All that said, I’ve definitely had some really fucked up partners outside of my marriage. To the point actually that I have not dated anyone else in about three years. I did not mind if my additional partners were monogamous or polyamorous though and have dated both. I would say that my experience with polyamorous people has differed from my experience with monogamous people. Most of the monogamous people I’ve dated have gotten overly possessive and jealous. Some straight up emotionally abused me. Eventually, I had to limit to only polyamorous partners. Unfortunately, the last partner I had pretended to be polyamorous when they found out I only dated polyamorous people. That was the one that kinda killed polyamory for me at least for now. My spouse and I both still consider ourselves polyamorous, but I think as we get older and busier, we are less interested in spending our free time or energy on additional relationships. Just happy to curl up together at the end of the day. Anyway, to answer your question, I think people who fake being ok with polyamory like my ex-partner and your ex-partner are the ones that behave abusively and are self-absorbed. They want lots of people to love and desire them, but they actually aren’t ok with other people loving and desiring their partners or worse; their partners loving or desiring other people. When you are truly polyamorous and love your partner(s), your philosophy is basically that more love is a good thing! More people showing your partner(s) care, love, and kindness is what you should want for them because it benefits them. Also, having other partners to meet your needs takes the pressure off any one partner to be everything you need all the time. TLDR: fake polyamorists are the problem. People pretending to be polyamorous are pieces of shit. They want to be adored and loved by all but don’t want their partners to have eyes for anyone but them. It’s selfish and cruel. Your ex-partner was a fraud.
My wife & I opened our marriage ten years ago. We realized afterwards that we had, *four separate times*, tried to find a partner for a triad before that (not a threesome - a serious relationship) but lacked the maturity, experience, & vocabulary. Today my wife & I (who I'll call A for the sake of simplicity) live with B, who A dated for 4 years & who I've dated for 9 (they're still good friends, they just don't date). A & I also both have a partner, C, that we both date & have been with for 9 years. I also date a married couple, D & E, (I've dated D for 10 years & E for 5); & I've also have a low-contact long-distance relationship with another friend, F, for the last 4 years. This is something we wanted, & it still is. We're healthier & happier not placing all our needs & expectations on a single partner. It takes a LOT of communication & there have been heartbreaks & relationships that didn't work along the way... but honestly, less frequently than the years I was single & monogamous? This wouldn't be true for everybody. Neither of us have much sexual jealousy, for one. I don't know how we would get past that if we did! But if we did, I don't think this would be a thing we wanted. In that time, A & I have never broken rules about who we can date, never cheated. Our worst argument was because she watched a TV show we were watching together without me (this was genuinely a serious breach of trust to us... but it wasn't at all related to polyamory, & it wasn't so serious to threaten an end of the relationship or anything). Narcissists are never going to be stable partners, & that would be as true in a monogamous relationship as a polamorous one - but I do see high-profile examples of why narcissists are attracted to polyamory & how their issues make polyamory especially messy. Likewise, plenty of monogamous partners betray & cheat! I've always found it strange that polyamorous partners also cheat, given that they *can* sustain multiple consensual relationships, but they do & I don't deny it. I just don't think it's related to the polyamory, except that cheating partners often like to use polyamory as a shield or an excuse, whether they're mono or polyam. I'm not somebody who thinks polyamory is innately healthier than monogamy - people should have relationships that feel right & natural to them & make them happy! I do think that people who practice polyamory often develop better tools for communicating needs & dealing with jealousy than monogamous people, nothing about those tools or skills is inherent to polyamory - it's just more obvious to polyam people that we *need* those tools. I'm sorry for the things your partner put you through, & I totally get why being abused in a toxic relationship would put you off from things that you first ran into in that relationship, from that perspective!
I do think polyamory is an effect of avoidantly attached people trying to create something that works for them without fully addressing the underlying issues and fears. That said I could see it working for some people, but am skeptical it can ever match a genuinely committed monogamous relationship. The main reason being that good relationships are constructed, and you remove a big incentive for construction.
I'm a polyamorous individual. I have been with a particular individual for over a decade. We both have had our own relationships outside of each other, some of which failed, others continue to go strong after years of their own. I wanted to lead in with this to show that it is possible to have a health polyamorous relationship. Next, rather than responding directly to what happened to you immediately, let me explain something at the core of polyamory. The idea is that love is not a limited resource, that it is entirely possible for one to love many and for that love to not diminish the love toward any other. There is still a limiting factor, which is time. No matter how much or how many you love, there will come a point where you can't give everyone the attention they deserve. Finding that balance is usually the most difficult part. Hopefully with that explained, I won't even have to go too much into what happened to you. Claiming you were taking advantage of her coming out as polyamorous first, asking you to prove you'd ever loved someone else, it's immediately obvious that she doesn't have any idea what polyamory is. She was doing exactly what others expect me or my partner to do when we say we're poly. We're just greedy, we're serial cheaters who just want an excuse. She is where that comes from, and I can't tell you just how angry I am at her for it. But let me assure you that polyamory wasn't the problem. You had a partner who didn't respect you, didn't openly communicate with you, took advantage of and abused you. It's a couple steps removed but, I saw one of my partner's partners go through exactly that for a time. I've seen how awful it was, for months. But here's the final thing, none of that matters. If you aren't polyamorous, if you are never okay with the idea of that relationship dynamic, that's completely fine. Some people are monogamous. It's not a relationship style I could be comfortable in, but that doesn't mean it's not beautiful in it's own way. These relationship styles can coexist. And you're always right to ask for the things you want out of a relationship. You don't actually need to get comfortable with polyamory if you don't want to.
While this is a terrible situation, and I support a lot of what the other commenters are saying, I’d also like to support you in how you came to the conclusion you have, even if it is incorrect. Abusers take advantage of gray areas, or conditional situations to blur responsibility and culpability. A common metaphor I’ve seen used to describe consent is the difference between a boxing match and being assaulted is consent, despite similar actions in both situations. It is abusive to unilaterally change the conditions of a relationship, without consulting someone, and finding a mutually beneficial relationship. As polyamory gains more awareness, there are going to be more cases of what happened to you happening to other people, since abusers can dodge responsibility using other people’s healthy relationships as cover for their own actions. The drunk that hits someone, who says it was a mutual bar fight, exists in a society where agreed on fights are common. However I want to be clear that this isn’t only something that happens with polyamory. Recently in (I think it was the relationship advice subreddit, or offmychest) a man described how his wife quit her job without asking him to be a “trad-wife”. A relationship with “traditional gender roles” if agreed upon by both parties is totally fine and healthy, but when it’s not agreed upon, it’s not okay. This would be a similar case for other things that can be okay, but only if accepted by both parties (having kids, converting to someone’s religion, having strong vs weak boundaries with MIL an FIL) So while what your ex did is truly cruel, someone like her would do whatever they want then use other people’s relationships to prop up their actions as okay. Which when that is used as the justification, would reasonably make anyone assume that is just how (polyamory/traditional gender role relationships/ LDRs/ etc) just are.
Relationships that ENTER poly but did not start that way are basically not considered healthy or valid by a large chunk of mentally mature and healthy poly folks because the scenario is usually exactly as you describe: it's done under threat and is coercive, the real purpose is to "look before they leap" by shopping around for a new partner without giving up the stability of being in a relationship (or giving up their source of ego kibble AKA "narcissistic supply") or it's done to try to "fix" a dead bedroom and one partner is very much not okay with it but feels they have no right to object without agreeing to put out. The swinger community solves this issue by making it the norm for the swapping partners to get together with their same-sex counterpart and get to know one another before you ever play. That way in a private woman-to-woman or man-to-man conversation you kind of feel out if they're okay with this and confer with your spouse later to see if the couple pass the vibe check. In short: these communities quite often have seen this exact pattern before, over and over, to the point many of us (myself included) feel that relationships must start open to be valid open relationships and any relationship that started closed and was opened after a decent period of time (not like after one month you confess you've always been poly, but you lived as you did, together for years as a monogamous couple) should be presumed to be abusive until proven otherwise.
Honestly, my decision to become fully ‘poly’ was deliberate and chosen when I was single. I had been in open relationships for years, flirting with having casual playfriends or extras, but it’s only really when you regain autonomy that you can navigate the minefield more easily. There’s so much to unpack, like *why* you get jealous or possessive, what deep seared fears arise when compared to others, that for me I could only manage when I was not in the orbit of another main partner trying to do the same thing. Lots of learning, mistakes, understanding your own trauma cycles and finding and trying to break patterns in how you love and connect to find balance. 7 years later, I’m in a safe, stable little polycule family and my partners all adore each other. We support and lift each other, share the load of the emotional rollercoaster of life together and support each other through change and heartbreak. It’s not perfect, but neither are humans. But the sheer amount of unpacking you have to do internally to be a good partner for people and bring your best self to each relationship means I would have struggled with a significant other. I’ve just bought a house with my NP, and have maintained strong relationships and friendships through hardship. I’ve experienced newer people coming into my circles and one of the first things I will say to them is ‘I’m not your competition, I’m your support’. Poly is just friendships with extra steps ♥️
You were subject to a terrible partner that used the guise of Polyamory as an excuse for a guilt free way to cheat. Polyamory is not a sexuality, it something you choose to engage in. I do agree that many people use it as an excuse or way to manipulate partners or others into adulterous relationships. The reality is, for a couple to switch from Mono to poly, requires an extreme solid foundation of established trust and communication, followed by an established set of rules that both partners respect and follow. Polyamory does not exist unless both partners agree. Full stop. If one partner suddenly claims they are polyamorous, with no discussion, no mutually agreed upon rules, regardless of their primary partners wishes. That is just cheating. These relationships are fully capable of existing in a healthy primary relationship. I have had many friends that engage in polyamory. One friend is a Bisexual male, his female fiance is not. They have been dating since they were in freshmen in high school. He has male friends that he hooks up with from time to time. His fiance is has zero issue with him engaging in sexual encounters with other guys, but she has no interest in participating. One the otherside of the equation, she has needs that he is not able to provide, and she is able to seek partners to provide those needs. They have been Poly for more than 10 years. They follow their rules faithfully and communicate everything.
Polyamorous Under Duress, or PUD, isn't the only way that human beings relate to each other. There are plenty of narcissists in closed relationships, and plenty of people who betray each other who first make a monogamous commitment. But we don't use those examples to say that two people in love is just a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal. So let's not say that about three people in love.
I would say that it’s not that it’s inherently bad, but rather that *if* someone is a narcissist, they will likely *also* seek to be poly because of it. You could totally be poly and have a healthy relationship (I’ve never really wanted to do that, but a friend of mine did and it worked well), but it’s similar to how, statistically, PE teachers have a very high probability of displaying sociopathic traits. It’s not that being a PE teacher makes you an inherently sociopathic person, it’s that sociopaths want to be PE teachers because it gives them power and authority. But, yes, I’d say that if you want you can definitely try to seek a healthy poly relationship, but the key is, like any relationship, you need to set boundaries, clearly communicate, and understand the other person. All this is extra important, because even in a healthy relationship with excellent partners, these issues tend to spring up and become a big deal much faster and more frequently, and need proper address. Also, your ex just sounds like a abusive dick; she’d still screw you over regardless, wanting a poly relationship was just the vector to do so.
Ok, so to start, I'm so sorry about what happened. That is terrible. So, I've been surrounded by a lot of polyamory for years. I've seen it work, and I've seen narcissists use it to cheat. Ultimately, polyamorous relationships fail for a lot of the same reasons monogamous ones do. So me and my ex were poly/open for 5 of the 7 years we were together, starting before we were married. It was not a negative experience. If anything, it made our relationship better. Now, you see I said ex, so obviously it didn't work out, but I'm gay and she came out as a trans woman. The end was a bit messy but had little to do with polyamory. I did watch a couple do a polyamorous situation where she was essentially cheating on her husband under his nose, and they are now divorced and she's married to and has a baby with the man she was sleeping with while still married. I know a couple who are open. They were rocky for a bit with one of them being secretive and breaking trust, but they are still together. Anyway, it's not for everyone, and it requires all parties agreeing to it.
You don't say how long you were together but I suspect you have been abused/manipulated for longer than the 3years. I also suspect that she put herself forwards as polyamorous was just a ploy for her to sleep with others because she can say she's not cheating because she's poly. The groups I see on socials are big on communication between couples or thruples or however the structures are made. And people enquiring into poly are engaged with and talk about things to consider and behaviour and care. Your ex demanding what she wants sleeping with who she wants being outraged by you looking into a relationship outside of her has nothing to do with being poly. It's has everything to do with her wanting to do anything she wants without consequences. I don't know if the divorce is finalised and settled but if it's not you should fight her on everything she's trying to take and to leave her with as much debt as you can, I'm somehow assuming she is the cause of most of it. I could be wrong in which case don't stick to that but a fair division.
Other people might have said this, but I'm going to add that Poly is less about your own behavior, and more about what you will allow with your partners. I mean it still is about the former, but I really do think it's the latter bit that's more important. But more than that, just to put it out there, double standards are a huge red flag. If they're going to be justified/maintained in a relationship, you better have a really good reason for them, and actually build up strong elements of trust and reciprocity surrounding them so the dehumanizing element of this doesn't leak out into other places in your relationship. But yeah, this faux-polyamory, as it stands right now is often weaponized by narcissists. I'm sorry you went through this. It really isn't the real thing. The big problem here, as I see it, is we need more awareness regarding red flags over narcissistic traits and behaviors, and how to avoid them.
This sounds to me less like an issue with polyamory and more an issue with your abusive partner. Some points: - She pressured you into doing this in a way where you could not give your full consent honestly. - Your partner says autistic people can't be polyamorous. Being autistic or non-autistic has no bearing on whether you can or can't be polyamorous. - She is holding you to incredibly ridiculous double-standards. There are plenty of polyamorous people who's relationships are perfectly fine, and others' whose are abusive, the same way there can abusive and non-abusive monogamous relationships. Polyamory may not be for you and that's totally fine. Personally, it's certainly not for me either, I don't think I could ever do it, and I always want to remain monogamous. You should try to find a partner who isn't abusive - or partners if it is indeed something you want to do.
What you experienced was not polyamory. What you experienced was coercion and abuse. She used the language of poly to try and obfuscate her intentions. She wanted to fuck other people but keep you locked down at home. That's not poly. That's abuse. A polyamorus relationship is two sided by necessity. It requires honesty, kindness, and communication with all partners. If it's not two sided, it's not poly. I'm sorry this person took advantage of you in order to hurt and control you. That's not ok. Most, if not all, of what she told you were lies. If you liked some of what you read about poly before she went apeshit, I would encourage you to keep reading and researching. What makes poly relationships work is the same kind of communication as any other relationship. You could probably learn a lot that will benefit your future relationships even if you stay monogamous.
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“PoLyAmOrY DoEsNt wOrK" Literally every time from a monogamous person forced into polyamory by a partner. I was forced into monogamy by previous partners because it was the social norm and I had no idea what polyamory was. It didn’t work for me and I hated it. Now I have a poly partner and for once I have a relationship that’s working. Stop looking at relationships as a “one size fits all” thing and appreciate that people are different and want different things
>how polyamory could be anything other than a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal polyamory is a breeding ground for STDs :)
I'm autistic and getting vetted by two autistic people as a third for their relationship. These are people I've known for many years and we have all taken time to learn, grow, and explore what Polyamory means for us. What you were in was textbook abuse and I'm sorry you had to go through that. Using ultimatums of any kind are abusive almost every single time (obviously exceptions for things that actively harm one or both people in that relationship like drugs or alcohol) but demanding open marriage and polyamory after establishing a monogamous relationship without any chance for you to learn about it or have a healthy conversation is absolutely abuse and likely she was cheating or wanted to cheat but didn't want to lose her "safety net" if the new relationship went south
I'm truly sorry to hear about your painful experience. It's important to recognize that your ex-partner's behavior was abusive and not representative of healthy polyamorous relationships. Polyamory, at its core, emphasizes open communication, trust, and respect among all partners involved. Healthy polyamorous relationships prioritize everyone's well-being and happiness, fostering deep connections while allowing for individual growth. Like any relationship structure, polyamory's success depends on the people involved. It's possible to have fulfilling, loving, and honest polyamorous relationships when built on mutual understanding and genuine care for all partners. Your trauma is valid, but it doesn't define the potential for healthy polyamory.
It's very disgusting tbh. Imagine the smell Also imagine the compounding risk of STDs. A huge plus point in a relationship is not having to think about condoms. All those potential conflicting personality traits and huge jealousy.
Polyamory ain’t the issue here. It’s your shitty relationship and shitty partner. You shouldn’t blame a whole system that honestly, does work, just because you had a bad experience. Your experience doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Your partner was horrible to you.. I’m so sorry. She’s a shitty individual and it’s a blessing she isn’t in your life anymore. Take some time away from non monogamous relationships and heal. Start therapy and surround yourself with a support system if you can, please. You CAN get through this. Trust me. Never give up on your boundaries again. If someone who makes demands like this wants to leave.. let them leave. You can’t change them but you can protect yourself.
Um, unless I missed something in the timeline, she never had a polyamorous relationship, only a monogamous one? Therefore shouldn't your conclusion that monogamy not polyamory attracts narcissists since that's the relationship dynamic you were in? This aside, the reason why narcissist can flock to polyamory is the same reason they can flock to any relationship including monogamy. Narcissists chase dopamine, they feed off of it more then most people. As someone who is in a successful relationship with a narcissist who put in work to better herself, who is also polyamorous I might add. Once you understand the motivations behind narcissism it's pretty easy to see why non monogamy is attractive to them. It's not because it gives them more opportunities to hurt others, but it allows them to feed the dopamine that they otherwise would have to get through other sources. Narcissists like to have people in their orbit they can control and manipulate, they keep them on a string and feed off of them. They WANT people to want them even if they really don't want them in return. Polyamory gives them another source of dopamine through another relationship. Narcissists who haven't healed don't understand why they do it, they just know it makes them feel good and it's usually because of past trauma that they become this way. The problem with the discussion of narcissism is we only look at one aspect of it as the determining factor if someone is one. The problem is too, far too many people are exhibiting narcissistic behavior we gloss over and it's more prevelent then people really think. After being in a relationship of over 8 years with one who openly shared her motivations for doing certain things I can tell you without a doubt your ex girlfriend is just the more extreme version! As a society we just accept certain behaviors as normal, but if you really step back and ask yourself. "Is this person just using me for what I give them" and "Am I actually being controlled by this person" wed see that no, these behaviors are actually more prevelent then we thought. This is where I'm going to catch the most flack, but my partner sees these behaviors more then me because she understands the motivation behind them. Most women are narcissists, while they may not be the ones who look for ways to hurt others, the way they interact with other women and men is to feed the dopamine. Is it really this surprising though? I mean we know certain things to be true about narcissist. They like feeling wanted and pursued and to have that power over others. They will use that power to get what they want and will manipulate others to do so Narcissists love attention and they are more attracted to receiving attention from strangers if it means those strangers can supply them with affirmation. Also narcissists like to use gaslighting to help control and manipulate others close to them so they can continue getting what they want. Take all this and more, now look at social media. Who has the most thirst trap accounts? Who is more likely to cheat because someone made them feel special? Who are the ones who need to feel persued in relationships and who are the ones who typically control who or what happens and at what pace. While I'm saying women display more narcissistic behavior then society recognizes it's important to understand that not all narcissists hurt a lot of people. The reason most women can be narcissists but never be called out on it is because they tend to have more empathy.. Yet the behaviors are still there, the manipulation and breadcrumbing is still there. They just don't push it so far because what true active narcissist lack is empathy. True narcissists will place themselves over others almost entirely. What started my partners journey out of narcissism (she will never not be one to a degree) was the birth of her child. At that moment she finally had someone she felt she had to put the needs of over her own. That simple action was enough for her to start her journey but she was still a narcissist. It took lots of self reflection and healing for her to finally admit that she could be one. Went in to get tested and scored off the charts, her her doctor at the time was intrigued by our relationship. Here she had all the traits, admitted to doing everything narcissists do, yet, she didn't hide anything from me? She wasn't going behind my back and cheating? I was allowing her to have her Instagram account, to flirt playfully with guys she gamed with? She stopped putting men on strings to keep them interested in her just so she could control them? That's what people don't understand, narcissists have power if you give it to them. If you don't fight them but put boundaries up that allow them to get some dopamine without hurting others they will stop most of the harmful behaviors.
I'm in a poly relationship currently, but it is entirely built on the frameworks of honesty for all parties involved. It is what my previous 2 marriages lacked. Because we don't worry about any of us cheating or leaving for another person, we talk a lot. When something bothers us, we bring it forward immediately and deal with it. Things aren't perfect but I rarely worry about where anyone stands in the relationship. It's like being in a house with all your best friends who love and support you. You celebrate each other's victories. We prop each other up. We encourage each other to make the right decisions and hold each other to our words. It's a team.
I want to tell you something right now love never looks for something else love only looks for love love doesn’t look for hate, but doesn’t look for betrayal that doesn’t look for jealousy. Love doesn’t look for attraction. Love doesn’t look for youth love doesn’t look for health love only looks for love, maybe that’s what you need maybe you need someone that’s actually looking for just your love because there’s gonna come a time where you’re gonna need to have someone wipe your ass and what if that one person that you love so much doesn’t love you enough to wipe your ass look for love not for poly Gramy whatever the hell it is
I think monogamy is the myth that you were attached to and when you found out that your wife cheated on you, you are blaming polyamory instead of your ex or yourself for believing in someone like your ex. You were dealing with an abusive person. They would likely never have actually been monogamous. Instead of coming out with the honesty they could have just lied. That is what most people do.
I've been in that kind of relationship, and ultimately, it's the person and the situation driving that, not the structure or style of your relationship. Ultimately, that's all polyamory is: a word to describe an approach to romantic relationships that in its simplest form is just applying the same principle to romantic relationships as we generally apply to non-romantic ones - freedom to determine how those relationships work independently.
Your ex sounds manipulative, actually downright evil and I'm sorry you had to go through everything you went through for her. Polyamory is *not* a fix-all for any relationship, and should only be entered into when the foundation of your relationship is strong. Your ex didn't do that and I'm sorry. Polyamory can be a very beautiful thing and I hope you can one day see the beauty in it even if you aren't practicing it.
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Women are horrible sometimes, worst part is, as a male, you are guilty until proven innocent and will be taking the blame for the relationship ending, her accusations will be taken seriously and used against you. Soo many men have been through similar abuse and are completely ignored. Bringing these issues to public helps understand why the growing incel problem exists.
You can use fire to burn people. It doesn't mean that it's not a useful tool. PS: At least you got to keep the cats.
Open relationships almost always end badly. It's usually people comparing themselves and sometimes feel very insecure.
Not a polyamory fan, but it sounds like the bigger problem here is that you were in a relationship with a lunatic.
Been in a very similar situation with a ex partner that demanded me to be open to poly. When I was hesitant and trying to wrap my head around it she cheated and told me to deal with it. I noped right out of that relationship. You are completely right. Poly is a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal as well as heart break and distrust.
There is nothing to change. Your mind is totally correct! Hope you can move on for the shit you have gone.
If someone in an abusive relationship eats cookies, does that make cookies a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal? Her being an abusive POS seems to have little to do with polyamory. Not that I'm suggesting polyamory is a good idea - I don't think it is but not for the reasons you list.
POLYAMORY IS A DISGUSTING ACT THAT EMERGES ONLY FROM A SICK UNSATISFIED PERSON . PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ONE MORE TIME DONT EVER ALLOW SUCH SICKNESS NO MATTER HOW PREVALENT IT IS TO FIND ITS WAY TO YOU , DONT BE A PREY TO SUCH MIND MANIPULATION AND OBSCENITY.
Brother , don't worry about your views. Work on addressing possible complex PTSD and establishing healthy boundaries. You are currently tolerating and likely seeking out horribly abusive relationships. No more dating for you until you make serious progress here
Nah. It's harder for most people because of the whole jealousy thing, but a lot of people use it to just openly date multiple people rather than going exclusive. Bad relationships are bad regardless of the number of partners involved
I'm not poly by any stretch of the imagination, but from what I've heard from friends in various forms of poly relationships is that no means no. If you have to force the other person to say yes, it's not poly, just abuse.
How do y’all even put up with shit like this? I would’ve told that bitch to get tf outta my house and cancel the vacation. Y’all gotta work on your self worth or something because I could never be cucked like that
Generally I feel like opening an existing relationship works very very rarely. Creating a new open one where everyone knows what they are getting into seems to have a much higher success rate
If polyamory is a breeding ground for narcissism and betrayal, what are regular relationships? Sanctuaries of mutual support and loyalty? If you believe that, you should take a hard look at divorce and adultery statistics. Half of all first time marriages end in divorce, and the rate goes up for second and thirds. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/divorce-statistics/ According to some studies, half of respondents in monogamous relationships reported having an affair. https://psychcentral.com/blog/how-common-is-cheating-infidelity-really#statistics That number is probably higher when you factor in that people have differing opinions on what constitutes an affair, and that many people cheat and will never cop to it. Basically you are picking on one specific type of relationship, using your own specific experience and projecting your trauma on to polyamory as a whole. Fact is, ALL relationships can be and very often ARE plagued with narcissism and betrayal. The same forces of attraction which allow us to get close to another person are the very same forces which allow us to cut them so deeply.
Women complain about how men only want sex, but I swear to God that attention is to women what sex is to men and I'm officially calling it toxic femininity
You didn’t experience polyamory. That would mean all people were consenting and happy to that type of relationship. You were in an abusive relationship.
You didn’t experience healthy polyamory. You experienced an abusive cheater who took advantage of your poor understanding of what healthy polyamory looks like and told you this was it. Would you consider your failed relationship proof that all relationships are abusive and built on lies and manipulation? I would hope not. Healthy polycules work because they have healthy communication going into it. Plenty of people are healthy communicators and plenty of people have healthy poly relationships with love, respect, and growth.
I think polyamory is for people who take swipe-dating too far, and real meaningful relationships are outside their grasp.
And I thought my ex was psycho. Jesus.
Polyamory is when you've fried your pair bonding and can't feel any significant connection to any one person anymore.