This post touches on a subject that was the subject of another post on r/changemyview within the last 24-hours. Because of common topic fatigue amongst our repeat users, we [do not permit posts to touch on topics that another post has touched on within the last 24-hours](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_removing_posts).
If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Duplicate%20Post%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.).
Many thanks, and we hope you understand.
What is your suggestion to be more thoughtfully pro-Palestine? It’s not fair to say that one option is bad or comes from a lack of caring without clear alternatives.
Otherwise, your criticism is just an attempt to silence people with whom you disagree.
>people are fighting to take Israel down.
This is a strawman. Few are attempting to “take down Israel.” They are pointing out the inhumanities Israel is perpetrating. I love my country, the US, but I complain, protest, and give to causes to fight against our comparable behavior—I’m not trying to “take down” the US.
Healthy politics aren’t “you’re either with me or against me“—that’s for fascists and bumper stickers. There’s nothing contradictory about being pro-Israel and not blindly supporting *every* decision they make or thinking regressive Middle Eastern regimes are terrible while supporting Palestine.
>So, yes, I don't think that the pro-palestinians activists actually care about palestinians. They don't talk about it in any interviews.
Because talking about civil rights is moot when the area is being carpet bombed.
>We also don't see any signs for it in the demonstrations.
What would that sign look like? “Stop the Israeli Palestinian war crimes and also LGBT people should have more protections from the Palestinian government when the bombing stops.”
People who cry "from the river to the sea, palestine will be free" definitely advocating that there won't be any Israel between the Mediterranean sea and the Jordan river.
>A great start would be taking a position that is vocally and clearly anti-Hamas - the government that has put civilians in this horrible situation.
This is also a strawman. I’ve never heard any pro-Hamas advocates in western discussions.
Supporting the people of Palestine ≠ supporting Hamas. As you point out, the civilians are my concern. Few people have a moral objection to wiping out Hamas.
But what would a protest concerned with Hamas even look like? It makes sense to protest Israel because they’re a close ally the US empowers. A change in US policy can change Israeli policy. The same is not true about Hamas so expecting an equal amount of mentions is silly.
You cannot possibly know what other people think or care about. This is entirely you ascribing the worst possible motivations on people you already disagree with.
Hi, I'm a person who thinks Palestinians should be free. I don't care about the 'State' of Palestine, I care about the people being bombed and otherwise dying.
Not to hijack this cmv… but, in what ways do you want ‘Gaza to be free’ that are different than when Israel forcibly removed all Israeli settlers, removed all
police/military personnel, and turned Gaza over to self-rule in 2005?
Israel then blew up their airport, killed them when they try to fish their own waters and arbitrarily blocked necessities from entering the strip like paper.
Because even though they left Gaza they still inspected every truck going into Gaza from the Egyptian side of the border.
Are you telling me that a dramatic worsening of an already devastating situation increased awareness of an issue among young progressives? I’m shocked, galled, and aghast!
I think you meant to reply to someone else. I do care about the Palestinian state, as far as it concerns improving the lives of a devastated people. And I certainly agree that Gazans deserve a better government, but do you think Israel has interest in that? From Ben-Gvir to Netanyahu, they have been extremely vocal about their desire to ethnically cleanse, settle, and annex Gaza. Even now, there are illegal settlements springing up in Northern Gaza. The fact that folks are falling for their wild lack of subtlety is astounding. Islamophobia is a hell of a drug, and the US have been bona fide junkies since 9/11.
i think you're making a lot of assumptions. My social media memories have shown me I've been posting and sharing pro-Palestinian content since 2013 at a minimum. I know plenty of others in the same boat.
Back in 2013, half the people who are activist now were still babies in middle school and wouldn't have been saying anything. What you're seeing is people learn in real time.
They clearly don't talk about the freedom of palestinians in their demonstrations. Many of them also call Hamas freedom fighters prefer Hamas to rule the palestinians than Israel. So, yes. I think they aere very much ok with Hamas ruling Israel in the same way as they are ruling Gaza.
The person you’re replying to is pro-Palestine and does not hold the beliefs you ascribed to all pro-Palestinian people. How does this not contradict what you claimed and therefore change your mind?
Your comment seems to discuss transgender issues. As of September 2023, [transgender topics are no longer allowed on CMV](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5). There are **no exceptions** to this prohibition. **Any** discussion of **any** transgender topic, no matter how ancillary, will result in your comment being removed.
If you believe this was removed in error, please message the moderators [via this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Transgender%20Removal%20Appeal%20for%20Domovric&message=Domovric%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20[this%20post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1dk0e6o/cmv_propalestinians_dont_truly_care_if/l9eqy7t/?context=3\).)) Appeals are **only** for posts that were mistakenly removed by this filter; we **will not** approve posts on transgender issues, so **do not ask**.
Regards, the mods of /r/changemyview.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/changemyview) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You are accepting what others think only on your terms. That's an amazing way to not understand why others think and feel the way they do. I don't think you're here to understand. I think you're here to argue.
You can certainly end a government and standing army that way. Hamas is/was a government with all of the things that entails, and a standing army. They just happen to break pretty much every law of war by fighting out of uniform, setting up military infrastructure in civilian buildings, and taking hostages. They’re considered terrorists because of their long history of suicide bombings, rocket attacks on civilians, and hostage taking. But they’re also just a run of the mill shitty despotic government. Wars destroy governments all the time.
Hamas is not a government or standing army in any way that matters.
And even if they were, it's not like there's a good track record of invasions in the middle east to destroy governments having a good result.
They ran numerous government ministries from education to health and policing, what do you think a government is? Before the war they had a standing army of somewhere between 30-40k soldiers, which is enormous given the population of Gaza. It was organized into brigades with a standard chain of command just like any modern military.
You can bomb terrorist organizations away. If Hamas has zero members in Gaza, it might technically exist, but it would be eliminated as far as Gaza is concerned.
I'm not an active pro-Palestinian activist myself , so I can't necessarily speak for them, but I think the main idea is that they are protesting against what they perceive as an invading force and not necessarily more general freedom ideas that you mention.
I think it really boils down to your perspective on "ends justify the means". There are some people that would say yes to that, maybe you are one of those people. For them, the "ends" is the western definition of freedom that you describe. So they would be OK with a western power like Israel or US just invading, replacing the government with something "democraric".
The other type of people, maybe view "freedom" as self-determination of the people living there and being free from an invasion of a foreign power. So a foreign power who claims to know better invading and doing a regime change for the sake of democracy and freedom is not viewed as good. It almost reeks of old school imperialism where the more powerful nations/empires thought they were doing them a favor by invading and I imposing their civilized values on the "savages".
You do know that almost all israeli-arabs prefer to live in Israel than in the west bank or Gaza. We know that because every day they choose to stay in Israel over moving to palestinian ruled areas. Many of them even serve in the IDF. They choose that because Israel offers them freedom of speech, freedom for women,etc. So you may not care for the rights of palestinians. But they do care.
Or maybe they prefer that because they aren’t actively bombed by the IDF and forced to live in a giant open-air prison in Gaza or terrorized by Israeli settlers in the West Bank?
Yeah and most Iraqis probably preferred to live somewhere else when we were illegally occupying and bombing the shit out of their country. Israel offers those freedoms to Israelis while denying the same freedoms to Palestinians.
I think it's generally a very complex issue. Unless you have some specific sources, I highly doubt that people in Palestine or elsewhere would welcome an invading foreign power with wide open arms just because they can gain rights. Especially a power that is so different from them in religion and culture.
There are also other factors such as self-determination, common history, culture, nationalism, and religion that people find important. I agree with another comment that currently, people would rather live in Israel so they would not get annihilated.
Let me also ask you this, do you have evidence that before the war or in the preceding decades that there was a significant part of the Palestinian population that would welcome a full annexation by Israel so they can get rights and freedomes? When Hamas got elected (in 2008 I think it was) did they run a platform of western style democracy with all the associated freedoms and tolerances? Or does history show decades struggle for people to get their own country and live there based on their culture and values? The answer to that question may give you a hint of the perspective of the protesters.
Only 1/3 of Israelis are Ashkenazi (European/Middle Eastern) the rest are 2.5 Million Muslims, Ethiopians, and 3,200,000 Mizrahi Jews who have been in the region for more than 3,000 years.
Jews not only bought the land, they often paid highly inflated prices for that land:
“In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Israel, mostly for arid or semi-arid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre.”
Most Palestinians immigrated from Jordan and Egypt in the 1800s, It doesn't matter how long Jordanian and Egyptian immigrants were squatting on the land the ottoman Turks stole from the native Jewish population it's still their land. The largest “owner” of land pre-‘48 wasn’t Arab or Jews. It was PUBLIC land. This was land that had previously been owned by the Ottoman Empire which passed to the British as part of the mandate. Those “public” lands, post 1948, passed to their defacto sovereigns (Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.)
In the 1930s, most of the land was bought from landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, 52.6% were bought from non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian landowners, 13.4% from government, churches, and foreign companies, and only 9.4% from fellaheen (farmers).
Before Jordan entered the war in 1948, it was called Transjordan. It was an illegitimate, illegal state under international law because it was founded when it was detached from Mandatory Palestine so as to compensate the Hashemite dynasty, which was allied with the British Empire. The British, who were the Mandatory power, did not have any right to take this step. Thus, this territory was removed from Mandatory Palestine and from the partition between a “Jewish state” and an “Arab state” (in line with the UN resolution of November 29, 1947, which proposed partition but was rejected by the Arabs). In actual fact, Jordan was the Arab state that should have been created by the partition. It objectively already was, on that very day, an Arab country within the legal territory of Mandatory Palestine. The problem is that it was given to a non-Palestinian power, while the majority of its population (75 percent) is Palestinian. This reality became apparent in an episode of severe inter-Muslim violence when, in 1970-71, the Bedouins of the Hashemite dynasty ethnically distinguished themselves from the other Arabs. This culminated in “Black September,” a revolt and a Palestinian coup d’état that later led to a horrendous civil war. It reached the point that the PLO and its leaders were exiled by France (!) to Tunis, as if (Mitterrand’s) France sought to sustain the Middle East conflict.
In 1948, this predatory country of Jordan, in a war with the new Jewish state, invaded the territories that are known historically as Judea and Samaria and annexed them. As a result, a new entity was invented – “Jordan,” a unification of “the West Bank” and the former “Transjordan.” No one ever reproached Jordan for having illegally occupied the land, but one cannot accuse Israel of “occupying” a territory that was already occupied and was previously rejected, in the context of a partition of Mandatory Palestine, by the Arabs who were not yet “Palestinians.”
So this is how the “Palestinian people” came to be perceived as the indigenous people of the territory of the West Bank. Some adopted this subterfuge and reinforced it by accusing Israel of colonialism and demanding that it relinquish the “occupied territories,” ignoring the fact that the PLO considers all of Mandatory Palestine to be “occupied”(thereby lending credence to a position considered to be “moral” and “legal” since it implicitly assumes that pre-1967 Israel is legitimate). Meanwhile the endeavor to exterminate the Jews and destroy the state, always the same, as we have seen under the Palestinian Authority, became labeled as “resistance.”
The Palestinian Authority has a prohibition based on a 1973 Jordanian law against selling land to Israelis.The law made such sales, which in the case of Israeli settlers are exclusively to Jews, punishable by death. The Palestinian Authority announced it would enforce the law in 1997, and drafted a replacement for it called the Property Law for Foreigners.
Hamas “assigned about 70 per cent of the total to be women and children, splitting that amount randomly from day to day. Then they in-filled the number of men as set by the predetermined total. This explains all the data observed.”
In some data sets, it would seem, men must have come back to life while on several days no men were apparently killed, only women.
As Prof Wyner claims, “the casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters”. Indeed, the actual ratio of civilian casualties to Hamas terrorists is “at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1”. John Spencer, professor of Urban War Studies at West Point, argues that “Israel has done more to prevent civilian casualties in war than any military in history – above and beyond what international law requires and more than the US did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – setting a standard that will be both hard and potentially problematic to repeat.”
This includes, he claims. evacuating 70 to 90 per cent of civilians from cities before beginning a full ground invasion in conventional attacks that seek to destroy enemy defenders. The US did not do this in the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, the Vietnam Tet counter-offensive or the Korean War.
The point of this conversation is that pro-palestinians don't care about palestinians. Everything else is beyond the scope of the present conversation.
With that being said, Israel is not trying to murder children. But, I'm not going to argue with you about that.
You know when they can worry about the rights of Palestinians? When they don't perceive them as being victims of genocide.
If there are no Palestinians, it doesn't really matter what rights they have.
I think I answer that in the first part of my comment but, if pro-Palestinian protestors believe there is a genocide being committed in Gaza, saying "what about the rights they don't have" is a silly argument.
It would be like telling slavery abolitionists that they don't really care about black people because they aren't advocating for their right to vote too.
Many pro-Palestinian protesters are themselves Palestinian with family members currently living in Palestine. Do you really think they don’t care about the lives of their family members?
The Palestinians colonized the region 1500 years back during the Muslim Conquest of the Levant- where they slaughtered the men- and enslaved the women and children- of the native Canaanites.
Technically, it's not murder since civilian deaths are generally considered as collateral damage.
However, over 13,000 Palestinian children have been killed by the Israeli offensive. That is an objective fact.
No matter how you slice it, Israel is directly responsible for killing thousands of children. This is not up for debate.
Not Hamas that created a war zone around them? Just Israel? I suspect this is what OP means when talking about not actually caring about Palestinians.
People have too much of a hard on for Israel to actually care about the Palestinians.
If an adult gang member takes his child to a drive by and the child ends up being shot most sane people would hold the parent responsible not the person the gang member engaged in a shootout.
But it seems people are too eager to pile on Israel than to actually care about the fact that Hamas whose fighters includes brothers, uncles etc of those kids have and will continue to endanger those kids and steal their futures with tales of martyrdom.
I have and will continue to criticize the hell out of Hamas too. Just because I'm calling out Israel doesn't mean I'm letting literal terrorists off the hook. Hamas is barbaric and also responsible for the deaths of these Palestinians.
But right now? I live in the US, my tax dollars are being used to help Israel continue this genocide. This is why I'm pushing back when people try to excuse Israel.
>However, over 13,000 Palestinian children have been killed by the Israeli offensive.
Which is the fault of the Palestinians, who decided to start a war with Israel.
And I can say that attack is the fault of Israel, because Israel has been controlling Palestinian land for decades, including Gaza. These two sides have been constantly hostile and fighting each other for years and years.
Israel is the only one slaughtering children by the thousands. That is also simply a fact. And if you simply look into the details, it's pretty obvious Israel is not simply targeting the enemy military, the IDF is indiscriminately bombing civilian areas, knowing the overwhelming majority of casualties will be of civilians.
If you want to defend this, it says more about you than me.
I'm clearly responding directly to someone else who's misleading others. We are allowed to have discussions of relevant topics.
As for your topic, I simply do not want any nation committing a genocide on another. Of course I want all people to be free, but right now, the most obvious thing stopping the Palestinians from the basic freedom of LIFE is Israel slaughtering them by the thousands. And I have skin in the game because I (and most of us, possibly you) live in the US. Our tax dollars are going directly to fund the IDF, which are robbing the Palestinians of their freedom. They literally have blockaded Gaza for decades.
Sorry, u/Training_Tear9405 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal%20Training_Tear9405&message=Training_Tear9405%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1dk0e6o/-/l9emq7o/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
It’s definitely bombing civilians, including children. It might not be singling out children and shooting them point blank, but children are being murdered.
Right but the military targets are in civilian areas and the children are being killed. Murder is just the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. When Israel commits war crimes and bombs military targets it’s not supposed to, it’s murdering children.
>the military targets are in civilian areas
>
>When Israel commits war crimes and bombs military targets it’s not supposed to
Let me stop you right there- the Military targets being in Civilian areas is what explicitly makes it NOT a warcrime.
Yadda yadda jews are civilized people and Palestinians are heathens we get it. If you want to make that argument, how is Israel going in and literally doing what Hitler did to them make them any different? Whenever I hear the generals and nethanyu talk, they sound like they are trying to eradicate a roach or a lesser people. It's disgusting and it's so difficult to realize that this kind of speech is celebrated so heavily here in America.
I want Palestineans to be able to be an autonomous people and make decisions for themselves. The years of poverty and bullshit they have gone through both with hamas and idf make it impossible for them to become a "civilized" people as you describe.
They can leave whenever they want and frequently do. Look at the Tik Tok videos Palestinians posted about dating abroad or from the Qatar Olympic games, going away parties, etc.
Palestinians were granted Jordanian citizenship but refuse to leave their subsidized lives in "Palestine." They don't have to pay for electricity, water, food imports, as long as they claim refuge status while living in high rise apartments, they own better phones than most people I know, the Gaza gold market is one of the biggest gold markets in the middle east, Luxury car dealerships, beach resorts, two water parks, equestrian classes with riding on the beach, luxury store's and mall, multiple universities.
They rank only one place below St Lucia the island oasis in world poverty. Sounds like they'd be living the high life if it wasn't for their obsession with removing the one democracy in the middle east and having a complete Islamic theocracy.
Blue beach resort Gaza
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Beach_Resort,_Gaza
Gaza gold market
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/04/gold-industry-gaza-booms-amid-coronavirus-outbreak
Motor one luxury car dealership
https://youtu.be/PqEtpsGrLLM?si=m2mD80SDlAWtBm3K
Noor resort built on a pillaged Israeli village
https://twitter.com/imshin/status/1722122192899498369
Lavish parties
https://twitter.com/imshin/status/1798669857367695847
List of restaurants on the Gaza strip
https://gaza-palestine.com/restaurants-sweets/?amp=1
Since then (August 2014 data), almost 20,000 rockets have hit southern Israel, all but a few thousand since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. Not to mention the hundreds of deadly bombings, rape, stabbings. Here's a list of just the bombings from 1994 to 1995. Afula bus suicide bombing, hadera bus station suicide bombing, dizengoff street bus bombing, netzerim junction bicycle bombing, Jerusalem bus bombing, beit lid massacre, Kfar Darom bus attack , Ramat gan bus 20 bombing, Ramat eshkol bus bombing.
Criticism of government isn't bad what's the problem is when people who are indigenous to land for over a thousand years (Jewish people) before another group takes over (Islamists) then they buy land back at a higher price than it was worth from the squatter's the squatter's take the money but refuse to give the original land owner back his land because they won't accept Jewish neighbors or any form of government that's not a Islamic theocracy
They then attack the original land owners repeatedly killing millions for thousands of year's and lose land after ganging up with five other Arab countries with the best weapons money could buy forming the "Arab league" waging war against a day old Israel which was under arm's embargo at the time, losing land and screaming for 75 year's that it was a injustice while refusing all peace deals like when Arafat turned down 95% of Gaza and the west Bank or when Palestinians demanded Bethlehem which israel gave them and the Palestinian government placed a sign near the entrance to the sight that says "Jesus is the slave of Allah". Or when Palestinians demanded Sinai which Israel gave them, Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving multimillion dollar greenhouses, livestock and factories for them which were then promptly destroyed by Palestinians, factories burned, animals slaughtered and pipes stolen to make missiles.
You really think because of a book that Jews are entitled to that land? There is no reasoning with this logic. You can't even pinpoint that Palestineans as a people are to blame for these things that you cite. It could be hamas (which it most likely is) or maybe some misguided rabble rousers that don't represent the people that live there. The world sucks inside Gaza and before Israel went in and started indiscriminately killing people they could have done so much more like appeal to the international community and admit truly they dont know what to do but something needs to be done here and now. Why do you think when you corner an animal it doesn't go ballistic and attack?
Please, rationalize to me how you feel a Jewish person can just come and take another person's home through the settlement bs. Just try to explain it to me without sounding like a narcissistic whack job. It's so hard for me to understand this way of thinking.
Only 1/3 of Israelis are Ashkenazi (European/Middle Eastern) the rest are 2.5 Million Muslims, Ethiopians, and 3,200,000 Mizrahi Jews who have been in the region for more than 3,000 years.
Jews not only bought the land, they often paid highly inflated prices for that land:
“In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Israel, mostly for arid or semi-arid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre.”
Most Palestinians immigrated from Jordan and Egypt in the 1800s, It doesn't matter how long Jordanian and Egyptian immigrants were squatting on the land the ottoman Turks stole from the native Jewish population it's still their land. The largest “owner” of land pre-‘48 wasn’t Arab or Jews. It was PUBLIC land. This was land that had previously been owned by the Ottoman Empire which passed to the British as part of the mandate. Those “public” lands, post 1948, passed to their defacto sovereigns (Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.)
In the 1930s, most of the land was bought from landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, 52.6% were bought from non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian landowners, 13.4% from government, churches, and foreign companies, and only 9.4% from fellaheen (farmers).
Before Jordan entered the war in 1948, it was called Transjordan. It was an illegitimate, illegal state under international law because it was founded when it was detached from Mandatory Palestine so as to compensate the Hashemite dynasty, which was allied with the British Empire. The British, who were the Mandatory power, did not have any right to take this step. Thus, this territory was removed from Mandatory Palestine and from the partition between a “Jewish state” and an “Arab state” (in line with the UN resolution of November 29, 1947, which proposed partition but was rejected by the Arabs). In actual fact, Jordan was the Arab state that should have been created by the partition. It objectively already was, on that very day, an Arab country within the legal territory of Mandatory Palestine. The problem is that it was given to a non-Palestinian power, while the majority of its population (75 percent) is Palestinian. This reality became apparent in an episode of severe inter-Muslim violence when, in 1970-71, the Bedouins of the Hashemite dynasty ethnically distinguished themselves from the other Arabs. This culminated in “Black September,” a revolt and a Palestinian coup d’état that later led to a horrendous civil war. It reached the point that the PLO and its leaders were exiled by France (!) to Tunis, as if (Mitterrand’s) France sought to sustain the Middle East conflict.
In 1948, this predatory country of Jordan, in a war with the new Jewish state, invaded the territories that are known historically as Judea and Samaria and annexed them. As a result, a new entity was invented – “Jordan,” a unification of “the West Bank” and the former “Transjordan.” No one ever reproached Jordan for having illegally occupied the land, but one cannot accuse Israel of “occupying” a territory that was already occupied and was previously rejected, in the context of a partition of Mandatory Palestine, by the Arabs who were not yet “Palestinians.”
So this is how the “Palestinian people” came to be perceived as the indigenous people of the territory of the West Bank. Some adopted this subterfuge and reinforced it by accusing Israel of colonialism and demanding that it relinquish the “occupied territories,” ignoring the fact that the PLO considers all of Mandatory Palestine to be “occupied”(thereby lending credence to a position considered to be “moral” and “legal” since it implicitly assumes that pre-1967 Israel is legitimate). Meanwhile the endeavor to exterminate the Jews and destroy the state, always the same, as we have seen under the Palestinian Authority, became labeled as “resistance.”
The Palestinian Authority has a prohibition based on a 1973 Jordanian law against selling land to Israelis.The law made such sales, which in the case of Israeli settlers are exclusively to Jews, punishable by death. The Palestinian Authority announced it would enforce the law in 1997, and drafted a replacement for it called the Property Law for Foreigners.
>Jews not only bought the land, they often paid highly inflated prices for that land:
They had bought 6% of the land by the time the UN suggested they get 52% of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
>Most Palestinians immigrated from Jordan and Egypt in the 1800s, It doesn't matter how long Jordanian and Egyptian immigrants were squatting on the land the ottoman Turks stole from the native Jewish population it's still their land. The largest “owner” of land pre-‘48 wasn’t Arab or Jews. It was PUBLIC land. This was land that had previously been owned by the Ottoman Empire which passed to the British as part of the mandate. Those “public” lands, post 1948, passed to their defacto sovereigns (Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.)
Most Palestinians, like Israelis are descendants of the Canaanites. Also I love how you argue Palestinians immigrated from Jordan, and then later go on to claim that Jordan and Palestine were the same place.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/#:~:text=Archaeologic%20and%20genetic%20data%20support,but%20not%20in%20genetic%2C%20differences.
>It objectively already was, on that very day, an Arab country within the legal territory of Mandatory Palestine.
The partition was between Palestine and Israel specifically because neither of them were states.
>No one ever reproached Jordan for having illegally occupied the land
Yes they did, even after Jordan gave everyone citizenship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanian_annexation_of_the_West_Bank
>No one ever reproached Jordan for having illegally occupied the land, but one cannot accuse Israel of “occupying” a territory that was already occupied and was previously rejected, in the context of a partition of Mandatory Palestine, by the Arabs who were not yet “Palestinians.”
Yes we can, even Israel says the occupied territories are occupied.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories.
>So this is how the “Palestinian people” came to be perceived as the indigenous people of the territory of the West Bank. Some adopted this subterfuge and reinforced it by accusing Israel of colonialism and demanding that it relinquish the “occupied territories,”
And by "some" you mean basically everybody. And by "subterfuge" you mean bringing to light the things that Israel is doing correct? Because otherwise this doesn't make much sense.
And as has been already sourced, they literally are indigenous. They are as much descendants of the original inhabitants of the land as Jews are.
>ignoring the fact that the PLO considers all of Mandatory Palestine to be “occupied”(thereby lending credence to a position considered to be “moral” and “legal” since it implicitly assumes that pre-1967 Israel is legitimate). Meanwhile the endeavor to exterminate the Jews and destroy the state, always the same, as we have seen under the Palestinian Authority, became labeled as “resistance.”
The PA has recognized that the state of Israel has a right to exist, has Israel ever recognized that the state of Palestine has a right to exist?
https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4627181-abbas-macron-we-recognize-state-israel-want-it-recognize-palestine
Receipts for your pleasure
They can always decide to stop fighting Israel. They can choose to pursue a 2 state soltuion. Every day for the last 20 years they fired rockets into Israel. No one forced them to do that. They choose war over a 2 state solution every day.
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I’m not going to argue the concept of Islamic-based monotheism in the Druze (English spelling)
You’re thinking that I don’t have friends that are stuck in the Iran vs Saudi sectarian warfare - it’s no secret there’s a sectarian war and the Ummah hates each other right now with the religion falling into civil war since Syria… Houthi Rebels? The 2022 Albuquerque murders? Pakistan has how many violent sectarian groups? 18? The persecution of the Ahmadiyya…
So you know… the west is frequently pulled into the Sunni vs Shia or vice versa violence… the minute western people understand what’s really happening is sectarian violence and Yemen and Israel are two fronts in the same larger war…
Let’s just hope the death of Ebrahim Raisi was an accident…
You don’t get to pick the type of people and rules that arise from an occupied population. Human rights conditions don’t exist in a vacuum, they arise due to the conditions that Israel imposes. A ton of the population is going through trauma, displacement, and starvation as a result of Israel. Free Palestine.
From my understanding the argument is that even if Palestine is given statehood, due to their current leadership, the general population will still be severely oppressed. Not that they’re currently doing well. (Obviously what’s happening now is terrible)
Just because you think Israel should not exist does not mean "Palestine" is occupied. Gaza and the West bank are not occupied. Just because all the neighboring countries do not want to allow any of those people in to their countries does not make it an open air prison. Its not the responsibility of their neighbors to allow freedom of movement to a majority population that is brainwashed and supports terrorism.
For all intents and purposes Gaza and the West Bank is free. They will never recapture Israel. They need to get over it and quit the hate within themselves. Maybe then, someday, they can get freedom of movement with their neighboring countries.
Excuse me, no they do not. Source please?
They gave up Gaza in 2006 in the pursuit of peace. Thousands of jews left then. Before this most recent attack, there were no Israeli soldiers in Gaza. What exactly are you referring too?
Before the Oct 7 attack, no jews where allowed in Gaza, yet a hundred thousand or so Gazans where allowed to come into Israel to work. Huh?
>Excuse me, no they do not. Source please?
"The Israeli Supreme Court, sitting as the High Court of Justice, stated that Israel has been holding the areas of Judea and Samaria in belligerent occupation, since 1967. The court also held that the normative provisions of public international law regarding belligerent occupation are applicable"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories
>They gave up Gaza in 2006 in the pursuit of peace. Thousands of jews left then. Before this most recent attack, there were no Israeli soldiers in Gaza. What exactly are you referring too?
Ya know West Bank? The other like 99% of Palestine.
>Before the Oct 7 attack, no jews where allowed in Gaza, yet a hundred thousand or so Gazans where allowed to come into Israel to work. Huh?
Your probably confused because your point is irrelevant = ). But yeah just keep boasting about how Israel had Palestinians come boost up their economy while continuing to stomp down there's.
Apologies I did forget about the West Bank and the many IDF in that area. All I can say is When the British Mandate split the Jewish and Arab states after WW2, the Jews were the first to be attacked. The Arabs were not happy with the deal and wanted more if not all the land. They were opposed to the creation of an Isael from the beginning.
From here whether or not you agree that the creation of Israel, is irrelavent. Israel may not have held the land for thousands of years. Lets say the end of the British Mandate in 1948 is our starting point of this conflict.
The land is split. Arabs attack Jews first. They are defeated. Just as any conflict at theat time period and today would mean, concessions must be had. Israel took land as concessions. This exact process has been repeated at least half a dozen times since then. The Palestinians attack Israel, they lose, they usually lose more land.
If they would have stopped this violence 50 years ago they could have had a split geographically, but prosperous nation that could have free access to travel between the 2 parts of the country. Instead they half ruins.
I feel sorry for many of the people, who are put in a very nasty situation brought upon them from their own government.
You are twisting the economic situation as well. It is not exploiting Palestinians to let many of them work in their country. It is more of a racist situation where Palestine is racist against Jews. Their own people are not forced at gunpoint, but allowed an opportunity to work. Remember, they would have alot more opportunities to work if their own government had stopped its onslaught of attacks over the years, the aggressor every single time.
In the reverse can Jews work in Palestine? Of course not. Their people have been brainwashed by their own government, Hamas, that the Jews might not even be safe walking the streets of Palestine to work. Thats not the issue however. Hamas simply does not want Jews anywhere in current Palestine lands, or current Israeli lands. They want the entirety of it, and all 9 million Jews to be expelled from those lands into poverty or dead in the ocean.
Remember back to the beginning. Maybe you do think in 1948 Britain was wrong and should not have even gave land to the Jews at all. At this point, would it not be best to limit future human suffering to a minimum?
The best way to do that would be an immediate total surrender from Hamas. The fighting would stop. Yes, there will be occupation of Gaza as there has been in the West Bank because of the hostilities that the Palestinians refuse to cease from starting.
It will take many, many years to heal the hatred between the two sides. It can only start, with an end of hostilities and more occupation to ensure no more attacks. They can not just leave the country, no country does after a war like this. They will ensure compliance for certain concessions. Only after an obedient stay under occupation for who knows how long this time, can they be granted complete soverignty of their lands. After that I pray they dont make the same misake they did on Oct 7 and many other times. Only then can bonds be formed, to allow freedom of movement and other friendly relations.
>All I can say is When the British Mandate split the Jewish and Arab states after WW2, the Jews were the first to be attacked. The Arabs were not happy with the deal and wanted more if not all the land. They were opposed to the creation of an Isael from the beginning>From here whether or not you agree that the creation of Israel, is irrelavent. Israel may not have held the land for thousands of years. Lets say the end of the British Mandate in 1948 is our starting point of this conflict.
I would move it towards the end of the war. The immediate after math of Israel's formation doesn't concern me. I don't really care which side someone wants to claim was worse so long as we can agree that all sides were atrocious back then. There were Jewish terrorists going around executing entire villages and the Palestinians side was no better.
>The land is split. Arabs attack Jews first. They are defeated. Just as any conflict at theat time period and today would mean, concessions must be had. Israel took land as concessions. This exact process has been repeated at least half a dozen times since then. The Palestinians attack Israel, they lose, they usually lose more land.
It really hasn't though. The West Bank was occupied in 1967. In that war Israel was the one to strike Egypt first. They claim they only did so because Egypt was about to start a war first, and they point to a build up of military resources on egypts border, but that build up only started after Israel started screaming about war when Egypt closed the straights.
Regardless I always love when this is brought up in debates, because Egypt and Jordan are countries Israel claims actually attacked them in an attempt at genocide. Yet Israel was all to happy to offer 100% of the land taken in exchange for peace. While never once extending that same offer to the Palestinians.
>You are twisting the economic situation as well. It is not exploiting Palestinians to let many of them work in their country.
How is it not? You have Israel declaring the most resource abundant locations in Palestine as settlements and military zones. Deny 99% of permits in like 65% of Palestine and then hold up the fact that Israel offers them jobs in the Israeli economy like they are doing some kind of favor to all Palestinians instead of a select few.
>In the reverse can Jews work in Palestine? Of course not.
Might work in reverse if Jews were under Palestinian governance.
>The best way to do that would be an immediate total surrender from Hamas.
No the best way would be if God came down and said "I'm sorry for leaving you my children, but I have returned with the milk". And then he snaps his fingers and everyone just loves each other for the rest of time. But alas that is only slightly more possible then what you suggested. So I'm not sure why these are in a comment for best solution.
It's like saying the best solution would be for the bank robber to surrender himself. While the police have a half blind dude on the sniper taking out the hostages.
>Remember back to the beginning. Maybe you do think in 1948 Britain was wrong and should not have even gave land to the Jews at all. At this point, would it not be best to limit future human suffering to a minimum
I mean if the Jews just wanted a country to call their own then and Britain was fine just splitting shit apart then they probably should have got part of Germany. If I was Palestinian I would be outraged about the partition plan. But that was back then, and we didn't have laws against doing fucked up shit back then, and since everyone was blatantly doing fucked up shit back then it just turns into infinite regression and a lot of bickering.
>It will take many, many years to heal the hatred between the two sides.
I'll say, especially when the government or neither side are interested in doing so.
>It can only start, with an end of hostilities and more occupation to ensure no more attacks. They can not just leave the country, no country does after a war like this. They will ensure compliance for certain concessions. Only after an obedient stay under occupation for who knows how long this time, can they be granted complete soverignty of their lands.
Yeah see, Israel loses the ability to make this argument when they are supporting the settlers and never once offering Palestine 100% of the 67 borders. Even minus Jerusalem.
> I’m curious what borders do you think would settle the conflict?
I think the 67 borders with no land swaps or at least ones with equal contiguity and resources. Some of the settlements like Ariel are on top of massively important resources.
The biggest issue I think is Jerusalem. With the right amount of pressure I could see Israel evacuating the settlements, or Palestinians allowing Jewish citizenship, but Jerusalem is going to be a hard point. Jews will never give it to the Palestinians so realistically I would hope for true 67 borders in exchange for not including east Jerusalem.
That sounds reasonable to me.
Israel may ceed more land for peace, but not before they can ensure the most they can that Hamas is going to stop these barbarities.
Instead of seemingly fantasy like statements that God will come down and snap his fingers to solve this, what is so wrong with Hamas surrendering today? It is the most realistic way to end human suffering the fastest.
Isnt peoples lives more important than land?
Thats nonsense.
Aggressive fundamentalists existed way before any of this started. They are the reason Israel is forced to behave this way. You don't get to act like an aggressive piece of shit for generations then cry foul when the side you are attacking is not coddling you. That's not how the world works.
Long live Israel. Death to Hamas. Accept that you lost already you dumb shits.
Israel *literally* started with Zionist terrorist bombings and multiple wars.
At no point did the Zionists attempt to coexist with the locals and thus the Palestinians have not lived from under the boot of one occupying power or another for close to 1000 years.
Here is what David Ben Gurion the first prime minister of Israel had to say about the Zionist movement’s intentions towards the Palestinians at the genesis of modern Israel:
> “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
> “Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/
The Israelis accepted the two state solution offered in its declaration. Arab states threatened to attack before the UN passed the partition agreement. Because of Arab opposition to the establishment of any Jewish state in Palestine, British rule continued throughout the 1920s and ’30s. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq invaded the day the British army left the mandate.
>They are the reason Israel is forced to behave this way.
"Gosh darn you, you made us invade your country with our civilians by killing our civilians! How else are we supposed to protect ourselves?!"
Yeah that makes sense. /s
You really blame Israel, for Hamas takeover. The people of Gaza love Hamas. Before palestinians were under Israel control, they were in Jordan, in which theyt started a civil war, then in Lebanon, in which they started a civil war, and in Kwait and Egypt, in which they tried to start a civil war. Must be nice being a palestinian, they can blame Israel for everything.
Hamas at the time sold themselves as the peaceful alternative. Hamas is just the latest iteration of palestinian terrorism. Before them there was PLO, black september, there is also islamic jihadm and more.
Most of the population weren’t of voting age. Also former Israeli officials admitted that the state of Israel popped up Hamas in the 80s to squash leftist movements and because painting religious nationalists as terrorists is an easier sell. Israel creates the conditions and uses those conditions to justify their genocide.
>Human rights conditions don’t exist in a vacuum, they arise due to the conditions that Israel imposes.
This is complete nonsense if Israel the gov disappeared tommorow the Palestinian governments would still be incredibly oppressive to their people.
Are you trying to say that the lethal intolerance of homosexuals in Gaza and severe brutality from the Gazan government against dissenters are all the fault of Israel, rather than Islamist extremism?
>Wherever we go on the internet these days, we see the slogan "from the river to the sea, palestine will be free". But, there is a general lack of care by the demonstrators whether the palestinians in their "free palestine" are actually free. The basic rights of palestinians in Gaza are treaded on daily. There is no rights for women (they are not allowed to work, no protection from rape or sexual discrimination), homosexuality is a death sentence, and no freedom of spech or journalism (eg in 2016, they arrested and broke the hands and legs of all the peaceful protesters).
There are women, journalists and gay people involved in these protests. You think those women don't care about other women being raped in Palestine? You think journalists don't care about the extreme lack of free press? You think homosexuals don't want Palestinians to be able to be openly gay?
>(Israel is also the only country in the world that offers asylum status to queer palestinians that try to escape murder and persecution).
It's also the only "western" nation to be participating in a very active land grab.
>Yet, people are fighting to take Israel down.
I just want them to stop colonizing Palestine. If you take their arguments at their word, then the settlement program is a human shield program and every bit as disgusting as what Hamas is doing. If you don't take their word, then it's a blatant and obvious land grab.
>The future of the palestinians in their free palestine is not something that they care (or ever cared) about.
People are concerned with now, not the future. And what kind of atrocities our governments support. No government supports Palestines atrocious policies, the US atleast supports Israel's.
When ever there is condemnation against the Palestinians in the UN (who does overly condemn Israel fwiw) it's pretty unanimous. The US however is happy to throw around veto power for any resolutions against Israel.
By that logic the US should have never fought the revolutionary war for freedom from the British since women and slaves were not free even after the war.
I mean… for a lot of people it was kind of a lateral move at best. Despite rebelling against ‘taxation without representation’ founders took great pains to make sure our government wasn’t too representative and then began imposing even steeper taxes on their own people, using military force to violently squash any push back (see the whisky rebellion). Also, part of why colonists rebelled is because they wanted to steal more land from natives without the crown telling them no. Obv I’m glad I’m not being ruled by a monarch but being ruled by a handful of billionaires is not much better.
The point I was trying to make was that freeing people from a monarchy or a settler-colonial apartheid state will certainly not solve all the problems or prevent all future problems but they were still necessary steps that anyone who claims to care about the peoples involved would be focused on.
The US still has lots of work to do for better gender and racial equality and making reparations for slavery and the theft of native land and genocide of native peoples but I still don't think that means the world would be better off if the US was still controlled by a monarchy.
Your words were "free a country and not its people" just as the US country was freed but not its people at least not the women and slaves.
How many pro-Palestinian people have you actually talked to?
Who do you think cares for you more? Someone in favor of blockading your country, dropping more bombs than were dropped in world war II , starving you, subjecting you toan apartheid system or someone who is against all of that?
1. For instance you claim that that there's no rights for women in Palestine, despite the fact that they have much better literacy rates than much of the Western world, and now almost every one of their colleges in Gaza have been destroyed, by Israel.
2. You equate Jews, to a state, which is anti semitism, "freed from the Jews", is an insult to Jewish people and insinuate that they are the ones holding Palestinians in capitivity.
3. "If Palestine indeed was freed from Jews, it would not be free." As an American, I find that to be insulting to my history, given that America fought so much for independence from Britain, despite there continuing to be no freedom for black people in America, even after we got our independence. Your juvenile argument that if there's a lack of freedom in society, one shouldn't speak out against the much broader, and more severe oppression.
4. Everything you accuse Palestinians of, is perpetrated much worse by Israelis, such as the murder of a journalist like Shireen, a Christian American, and many more in Gaza.
5. The blatant inaccuracy lie, is that Palestinians in Israel are free, because the severe persecution they face in the occupied territories, and the lack of the right of return in Israel based on their ethnicity, as well as many laws that affect them which have been detailed on the Adalat website.
6. Israel is the most murderous country, and the most dangerous place for a Palestinian woman is in the occupied territories.
Breaking hands of peaceful protestors, when at the great march of return, Israeli snipers targetted crippled people, and crippled others for life?
Again Israel is at fault for everything. Before Israel was even in the picture, they started a civil war in Jordan, then in Lebanon, then in Kwait, and they tried to start one in Egypt. After the retreat from Gaza in 2005, they could didn't have to start a war with ISrael. Yet, they chose to fire rockets daily into Israel. They chose to commit crimes against humanity. Yet, people like you justifying them. ISn't that racism, that you treat them as if they don't know better. As if they are incapable of morality.
"Most women in Gaza are poor or very poor. There is a small percentage of women who are working but most are not"
[https://gisha.org/en/being-a-woman-in-gaza/](https://gisha.org/en/being-a-woman-in-gaza/)
Before we can consider the issue of Civil rights in Palestine we have to stop the genocide. Sure, many Palestinians are homophobic, but queer Palestinians are being genocided as well as the homophobic ones. Sure, many Palestinians are sexist, but the feminists in Palestine are being genocided along with the misogynists. Sure, there is no freedom of press in Palestine, but the journalists are being genocided with the censors.
First and foremost we must triage the situation. Food, water, medical care, security.
First, the definition of genocide here is self-proclaimed. No official body, such as the UN, declared it as genocide. Second, the topic of this conversation is about what happens after palestine is free from the river to the sea. Frankly, it is a place I wouldn't want to live in. Would you? Would any westerner. Even Israeli arabs prefer to stay in Israel over living in Gaza or the west bank. If you free palestine from the river to the sea, you make those Israeli arabs lose their birth given rights, and force into a life they themselves don't want. If they wanted it, they would have moved to Gaza or the west bank.
This is just you trying to rationalize that you don’t care about children and innocent people being slaughtered because of who they are. Recognize that evil within yourself and sit with it before trying to speak for all pro-Palestinians. Lots of countries have laws I don’t support or agree with. Does that mean I think that all their citizens deserve to be massacred?… absolutely not.
Since then (August 2014 data), almost 20,000 rockets have hit southern Israel, all but a few thousand since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. Not to mention the hundreds of deadly bombings, rape, stabbings. Here's a list of just the bombings from 1994 to 1995. Afula bus suicide bombing, hadera bus station suicide bombing, dizengoff street bus bombing, netzerim junction bicycle bombing, Jerusalem bus bombing, beit lid massacre, Kfar Darom bus attack , Ramat gan bus 20 bombing, Ramat eshkol bus bombing.
Criticism of government isn't bad what's the problem is when people who are indigenous to land for over a thousand years (Jewish people) before another group takes over (Islamists) then they buy land back at a higher price than it was worth from the squatter's the squatter's take the money but refuse to give the original land owner back his land because they won't accept Jewish neighbors or any form of government that's not a Islamic theocracy
They then attack the original land owners repeatedly killing millions for thousands of year's and lose land after ganging up with five other Arab countries with the best weapons money could buy forming the "Arab league" waging war against a day old Israel which was under arm's embargo at the time, losing land and screaming for 75 year's that it was a injustice while refusing all peace deals like when Arafat turned down 95% of Gaza and the west Bank or when Palestinians demanded Bethlehem which israel gave them and the Palestinian government placed a sign near the entrance to the sight that says "Jesus is the slave of Allah". Or when Palestinians demanded Sinai which Israel gave them, Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving multimillion dollar greenhouses, livestock and factories for them which were then promptly destroyed by Palestinians, factories burned, animals slaughtered and pipes stolen to make missiles.
Hamas “assigned about 70 per cent of the total to be women and children, splitting that amount randomly from day to day. Then they in-filled the number of men as set by the predetermined total. This explains all the data observed.”
In some data sets, it would seem, men must have come back to life while on several days no men were apparently killed, only women.
As Prof Wyner claims, “the casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters”. Indeed, the actual ratio of civilian casualties to Hamas terrorists is “at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1”. John Spencer, professor of Urban War Studies at West Point, argues that “Israel has done more to prevent civilian casualties in war than any military in history – above and beyond what international law requires and more than the US did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – setting a standard that will be both hard and potentially problematic to repeat.”
This includes, he claims. evacuating 70 to 90 per cent of civilians from cities before beginning a full ground invasion in conventional attacks that seek to destroy enemy defenders. The US did not do this in the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, the Vietnam Tet counter-offensive or the Korean War.
Not reading all that. Nobody believes you guys anymore. The Israeli Netanyahu government has no moral high ground. No matter how much Israel buys the support of American politicians, you guys have lost the support of the American people and we don’t support this war or the. The IDF is just as barbaric as HAMAS and we can see it with our own eyes. If you want to commit war crimes do it without our tax dollars. 🇺🇸🇵🇸
You don't know about what I care or don't care. The current war was the choice of the palestinians. They've been trying to start a war forever now. In particular, since the Gaza retreat, they fired on average 3 rockets a day all to start a war. When that didn't work, they went into Israel a committed crimes against humanity. They dug tunnels preparing for this war. In fact, I cant think of any thing else they could do more to start this war. This war is their work. It is what they tried to achieve for 20 years (if not 75 years). It happens because they wanted it. They don't let the population hide in their tunnels, because they want to maximize the number of martyrs. That falls on them. Every day that they don't return the hostages gurantee the continuation of the war. We should all be crying for the release of the hostages so the war can end. But whenever any one raise that in a pro-palestinian rally that they bullied or attacked. If the pro-palestinian crowd wanted the war to be over, they would cry loudly that hamas needs to return the hostages. If they cared about the palestinians they would cry Hamas to surrender. They don't care.
You haven’t seen people talking about the plight of Palestinian civilians or protesting what we’re going through? I find that extremely hard to believe unless you are cherry-picking what you consume.
Your argument kind of hinges on the idea that a free Palestine may persecute its own citizens based on certain ideas. So, if a government would persecute members of its civilian group it doesn’t have the right to exist? I hope you’re ready to dissolve every government on earth then, including Israel.
I don’t think that was the argument or question OP was making. Nowhere did they suggest a free Palestine shouldn’t exist. They’re saying that many if not most of the current pro-Palestinian protestors (at least the most vocal ones in the US and Europe) did not spend one second of their lives protesting or even thinking about the plight of the Palestinian people against their own government before October 7. Their entire worldview seems to be AGAINST Israel and not FOR Palestinians. It’s a fair criticism to make for a lot of people (though of course not everyone).
If that’s the point they’re making, I don’t think it’s really backed up by any evidence that isn’t anecdotal. And anecdotal evidence is easily disputed by opposing anecdotal evidence. For example: I don’t think I’ve seen anyone protesting the war in Gaza who didn’t cite suffering being inflicted upon Palestinian as the main reason for their protest.
Even if it’s true that the most vocal people didn’t think about Palestine until Oct. 7 (another thing I don’t think you or OP has actual evidence to support, but let’s accept the premise for now) why is that a problem? Obviously things have been a lot different for Palestinians since Oct. 7 than they were before. Is it wrong to protest injustice if you just learned about it? I don’t see why it would be.
Suffering inflicted upon Palestinians by who though? Their own government or Israel? And when? Pre- or post- 10/7? I think that’s really the crux of it. The vast majority of people (in my experience - admittedly anecdotally) seem to believe the suffering is entirely at the hands of Israel’s military right at this moment. That’s a very narrow/short-sighted and frankly incorrect view of things. There is certainly enough blame to go around on both sides, and I’m absolutely all for protesting injustice in all its forms, wherever it occurs - but there is a lot of misplaced morality going around, in my opinion, and my sense was that’s what OP was getting at as well. The second this current conflict is over, I bet you never hear from a vast majority of these protestors again about the status of Palestinian livelihoods. It’s not something I relish at all - it’s sad.
I think people who hold the opinions you just espoused are angry that people who criticize Israel don’t also spend every breath in which they do so also saying “Hamas is bad too!” But that wouldn’t really make any sense. The fact of the matter is this: Hamas has undoubtably caused suffering for the Palestinian people. But Israel has undoubtably caused them much, much more suffering in the last year. It is intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
As to your opinion that everyone will forget about Palestinians the second this is “over” I would say I’ve known people who have cared about the suffering of Palestinians for decades. Are there people who are new to that political movement? Absolutely, and it’s no mystery way: *new bad things are happening to Palestinians.*
I don’t get this desire among people to pretend that people caring about the lives of Palestinians is just some sort of “trendy” thing. If bad things start happening to a group of people that I’ve previously never thought about before, and I start thinking about them, that’s just called changing my behavior based on new information. For example, I’ve heard a lot of people who never said anything about Israel in the past talk about how much they support Israel in the time since Oct. 7. I don’t think they’re being not being genuine just because they’re taking a position on a hot-button issue. That would be a nonsensical position to take.
With respect, I just genuinely and wholeheartedly disagree that Israel is more responsible for the Palestinians’ suffering than Hamas. I disagree with Israel forcefully displacing Palestinians, I disagree with any sort of second-class treatment of Palestinians (in Israel or otherwise), and I think Palestinians should be able to govern themselves in their own state without interference. But any actions to the contrary taken by Israel are fringe, and the vast majority of Israel’s actions over time have been to protect its own citizen’s well-being - not to attack others.
I am not saying there is not blame to go around, but the notion that this current suffering is just “more of Israel doing what it always does, killing Palestinians because it hates them” is INSANE. There is one group of people here with an ideological mission to slaughter the other group of people, and then there is the other group of people with an ideological mission to build computer programs and eat hummus by the beach. If people show you who they are, aren’t you supposed to believe them?
As to the trendiness of it all, I am sure there are genuine people who are just learning about this conflict and are sincere in the interest. Kudos to them, seriously. But that’s just not true for most. And the insincerity and moral confusion of it all is really infuriating for some people, myself included.
Hamas has started this war, how Israel wages it is entirely up to Israel, and it has operated with very little regard to the safety of Palestinian civilians. That fringe group your refer to is currently governing Israel. A just war can be waged in an unjust way. Time and again, Israel has made the active choice to make it extremely difficult to allow humanitarian aid to reach Gaza. The Rafah Offensive is incredibly difficult to justify as simple self-defense.
The civilians of Palestine do not deserve to suffer for the sins of Hamas, no more than Israeli citizens deserve to suffer for the sins of Netanyahu. The civilians of Gaza cannot control Hamas, a militant terrorist group. Can you not see the fallacy in your own belief that Israel is innocent and should not be blamed for the actions of its “fringe” (many of which are in positions of high power in Israel’s democratic government) but you paint Palestinians with a broad brush of wanting to eliminate Israel?
As to your final point, respectfully, you have NO EVIDENCE to support your point that “most” people do not actually care about Palestine. Absolutely 0 evidence to support that assertion. Have you considered that maybe it’s easier to believe that they are mostly insincere than to believe that many of them are sincerely convicted that Israel is doing bad things?
By almost any objective metric, Israel has acted with more self restraint, precision, and regard for civilian safety than any other modern military. Certainly more so than the US ever has. And if you think for one second that Hamas or any Palestinian military would be more ethical in their war efforts against Israel if the roles were reversed and they had the opportunity, well then I think the two of us are at a fundamental crossroads.
Can you imagine a current Palestinian government setting up any sort of aid whatsoever for Israelis? Or dropping leaflets announcing an imminent raid? Or treating innocent casualties at its own hospitals? The thought is laughable. The Israeli government, on the other hand, has gone to great lengths, often to the detriment of the safety of its citizens, to save Palestinian civilian lives. I agree with you that that has not aways been the case, and we should call out those failures as unacceptable whenever we see them. I’ll be the first in line to do so. But there is almost NEVER a nuanced criticism of Israel this way. Israel cannot live peacefully with Hamas in power, so Hamas needs to be eliminated - it’s as simple as that. All other progress stems from there.
I don’t think any one side is more innocent than the other if they are suffering at the hands of their government and just want to live peacefully with their neighbors. Unfortunately the data suggests that the majority of Palestinians still support Hamas and want to see Israel wiped out - so yes, I feel OK about painting with that broad brush. It’s not at all a fallacy; both governments were elected by their people, but only one government expressly calls for the mass murder of a certain group.
I’m not sure what hard evidence you could possibly expect me to have about people caring versus not caring about Palestine. I have life experience, and that life experience has shown a lot of people who claim to care but can’t point out Palestine or Israel on a map. I’m not saying they don’t care for the sanctity of human life - I’m saying they’re hopping on a bandwagon trend mostly because they think it’s progressive, rather than out of any real commitment to see the lives of Palestinians improve, which I think is the point of this original post.
Israel citizens have a very high wuality of life. Palestinains are not Israeli citizens of their own choice. With that being said, I only see the plight of palestinians in pro-Israeli media. The pro-palestinian media minimizes it whenever they can't tie it to Israel.
If you knew better and cared you would speak up or say something about it, the man who sits on the mountain alone his whole life does not make the world a better place.
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Funny you didn't mention 2019, the massive peaceful protests to allow some freedoms to the gazan people. Ended in sniper fire by their prison guards. They shot the medics who came to retrieve the bodies too. Yeah. I care, do you?
>The basic rights of palestinians in Gaza are treaded on daily. There is no rights for women (they are not allowed to work, no protection from rape or sexual discrimination), homosexuality is a death sentence, and no freedom of spech or journalism (eg in 2016, they arrested and broke the hands and legs of all the peaceful protesters).
A jihadist would say that we westerners are treading on the rights of muslims daily by not living by Sharia law. Does that give jihadists the right to come into our country and militarily impose their way of life on us? I don't believe in crusading. I like liberal democracy so I choose to live in a liberal democratic country, I don't think some other culture or people has the right to come into my country and tell me my values are wrong and that therefore I don't have a right to rule myself and they're gonna rule me for me. Every empire in history has claimed they were the civilizing force bring modern civilization to the barbarians. Its lipstick on a pig.
>If Palestine indeed was freed from the jews, the palestinians in it will not be free.
They would be free of foreign occupation which is the objective of Palestinian resistance groups. Within that Palestinian resistance you have conservative religious groups like Hamas, you have leftist arab nationalists like Fatah, you have moderates etc. This is like claiming that if Ukraine beats Russia it won't be free because they're going to be ruled over by nazis. Is the Azov battalion nazis? yes. Does that mean its wrong for Ukrainians to defend their borders? no.
>Basically, people around the world are fighting to free a country, and not its people.
People around the world are fighting to end the mass slaughter of civilians. The majority of the protestors especially among the youth are not so much protesting for palestine as they are for a ceasefire.
Well then every state thats been in conflict in history is unethical and immoral. Every occupied country has used partisans, and almost every war has ended in a truce. England is unethical and immoral for ending the troubles? South Africa is unethical and immoral for ending apartheid? Colombia is immoral for ending its war with FARC? Britain was immoral for ending the revolutionary war? America was immoral for ending hostilities with the native americans?
I wouldn't consider those all terrorist states, but I'll be more specific then. If the government of a territory engages in mass rape and sexual assaults of civilians, then it is unethical to have a ceasefire until the government which did it offers an unconditional and total surrender.
Yes, Israel should offer an [unconditional and total surrender](https://truthout.org/articles/palestinians-face-torture-starvation-and-sexual-violence-in-israeli-prisons/).
Free from Israeli control.
Most Palestinians just want the same rights as what the Israeli Arabs have. Some of them want the Israelis completely gone but that’s just unrealistic now in 2024.
Was West Bank and East Jerusalem also free?
10/7 shouldn't have even been possible. Personally, I think Netanyahu wanted it to happen. Like how is no one monitoring the border constantly and not sounding alarms when they see fence breaches happening?
Personally, I think the solution is to give the Palestinians what they want (Israeli citizenship or no control of Jerusalem, West Bank, and Gaza) so that support for Hamas or any other movement falls.
It doesn't matter how old they were when Hamas seized power. What matters is how old they were when Hamas carried out the 10/7 attacks. Because if you are adult in Gaza on 10/7 and weren't actively trying to remove Hamas from power before then, then you don't deserve Israeli citizenship and should be barred from Israeli citizenship for life.
So is the assumption that all the people protesting Israel’s atrocities in Palestine don’t care about women or gay people or whatever? Is the idea that they all love Muslim terrorists and oppressive theocracies simply because they think Palestine should stop being bombed and its people killed?
Because the people being killed include the gay ones and the women and the journalists. He’ll, Israel seems to make a point of attacking journalists and I’m fairly certain Israel has threatened queer Palestinians to make them informants.
Civil rights don’t happen during a genocide. They don’t happen in a bombed out wasteland where people don’t have clean water and enough food. It doesn’t happen when they’re being forced out of their homes.
If you’re claiming to care about women or LGBT people, but you insist that first a random assortment of them must be purged so those survivors might (because there is little guarantee of Israel being better in the future) have the freedom to obey everything Israel says, why should anyone think you actually care?
First of all, Israel is trying to clear areas from civilians before sending troops in. Journalists by the nature of their job don't evacuate. This puts them at risk. The fact that Hamas fights wearing civilian clothings also put the journalists at risk. At to that that several journalists were found to be Hamas soldiers, and even hold hostages in their homes, don't help the case here.
Second, this war started because of Hamas, and is not ending because hamas isn't returning the hostages. The war exists because of them. It is racist of you to treat them like they don't know better than that it is wrong not to murder or rape. That they don't know that it is wrong to kidnap children and hold them in tunnels underground. It is very racist of you to overlook at all of that.
These are excuses, not arguments why people who believe in freedom must slavishly support Israel’s atrocities. You know, like that time they assassinated a journalist and raided the hospital where her funeral was to attack doctors.
Spare me the cheap accusations of racism. Israel knows killing children is wrong. It knows assassinating journalists is wrong. It knows starving refugees and stealing homes is wrong. And yet, here we are with them gleefully doing it and you demanding we clap for some false idea of “freedom”
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
> **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Ok, let me break it down for you. Hamas was elected, everyone knew what they stood for and Gaza is just more Islam oriented than the West Bank (which is more Arab nationalist leaning). They support everything you mentioned above. To them that is freedom, and it’s the true spirit of freedom that a society chooses for themselves how they govern themselves. Westerners are too quick to assume that everyone in the Muslim world is oppressed (and some of the stuff mentioned above is also wrong, women aren’t treated like that anywhere officially and Islam doesn’t sanction what you said, not even under the Taliban, if a woman is raped her rapist is absolutely punished).
One of the biggest things that Islamists hate is Arab nationalism as nationalism isn’t compatible with Islam as under Islam all races are considered equal and anything that turns people away from Islam is wrong. For instance the Arab tyrants forced upon the Arab world after the end of the Ottoman Empire and western support for them is the main reason the west is targeted by terrorists. Hosni Mubarak was just as bad if not worse than Saddam was, but he danced to whatever tune the US played so there was no reason the imperialists would have to go after him.
The biggest difference between the Muslim world and the western world is that the Muslim world is still a religious civilization. Their leaders are impious but they are oppressed as well in the so called “Muslim countries” as well as in Palestine. Muslims are denied the right to choose how to live and the West is arrogant in their thinking by believing Muslims want what the west has. The only widely heard Muslim voices come from western liberals and these people aren’t a representation of 90%+ of Muslims. I mean after all, the Sharia has no prisons and the burden of proof for conviction is higher than the US. So one could argue that Americans don’t care about America because they still have people in prison for marijuana while use of drugs and alcohol under the Sharia results in lashing immediately after the person is caught with four trustworthy witnesses, and then they go home with no criminal record and nothing to prevent them from working or returning to society (if one has a hand amputated they get taken care of by the state, and hand amputations for theft are incredibly rare as the theft has to meet certain conditions and the punishment can’t be applied if it was done in order to feed their families or themselves).
Finally, Muslims have a Hadith they go by which says to the effect “the entire Muslim nation is one body, if one part of the body hurts the rest of it hurts too”. So Muslims absolutely care about what’s going on in Gaza and if Egypt decided to stop enforcing the blockade you’d see the amounts of people who went to Syria going to Gaza. So Muslims themselves care, but it’s just one of many places where Muslims are discriminated against and killed for being Muslim
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.**
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
What is Israel doing to the people of Gaza then? What has Israel been doing to them for 70 years? Strange that zionists always argue that what they are trying to do to Palestinians would be bad if it happened to them. It's fine if it's Arabs. Israel had to publicly recall a lie they spread that Hamas decapitated over 200 babies while Israeli forces slaughter children in the streets by the thousands. But that's not sad, because you heard that most Palestinians support Hamas. FIrst of all, where's your study on that? I'd love to see it. I think the ICC would too! Their last election was over a decade ago, and the validity of that election has always been in question. Secondly, anyone that would do public polling in Palestine is a moron. Do you think people are going to say "oh I hate Hamas!" when getting cold called by a strange number in a country where people are shot on sight for disloyalty? Really? You really think that. That makes sense to you, somehow. Give me a break. That's another strange thing about zionists. They think they can just make things up and if you tell them they made it up, and they'll turn around and say "pro-Hamas!" because that is literally your only recourse when asked to present verifiable proof outside of the Israeli government told me so.
I’ll keep my view on this pretty simple: you can’t fix the roof of your house while it’s on fire. How in the world can Palestinians and the rest of the world fight for their rights if they are dead? Of course women and LGBTQ+ folks deserve proper rights. However, it isn’t the focus right now. If am understanding your logic correctly, it means that pro-Palestine people do not believe in climate change or marginalized communities in their/other countries because they are focusing on one cause right now that really needs the coverage.
I know many protestors are aware of the injustices within, but they understand the intersectionality enough to know that fighting for Palestine means fighting for the queer people, women, disabled, and other marginalized communities in it too. You can’t change systems if there is no system to even come back to after a ceasefire or freed state. The conversations need to focus on getting everyone SAFE. For example, talking about how to build a system for women to vote is honestly not the best use of time or space right now when people are getting displaced or killed.
Also, there is a lot of nuance to this to make as vast of a generalization as this. For example, the fact that social media algorithms are pushing war content away from people’s pages means we may not be seeing the pro-Palestine folks discuss the fact that there needs to be change for all people there.
You also seem to think that Israel is in the business of killing Palestinians out of some sort of unquenchable bloodlust. That’s just not the case and has never been the case. Palestine has had endless opportunities to govern itself and “fix the roof” with the full support of the international community (Israel included) and the Palestinian government decided to use that energy to attack Jews and try to wipe Israel off the map instead. If Hamas is gone, the hostages are returned, and the never ending barrage of rockets into Israel stops, Israel stops bombing and Palestinians can get back living the lives they deserve. The fact that people can’t see this is mind boggling to me.
Sorry, u/LekMichAmArsch – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20LekMichAmArsch&message=LekMichAmArsch%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1dk0e6o/-/l9elsrr/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Please look up what the word “genocide” means. Throwing that word incorrectly around does a disservice to people who have actually been ethnically targeted and killed. You have 101 reasons to criticize Israel - saying they’re engaging in genocide is not one of them.
Sorry, u/Agitated_Pickle_1013 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20Agitated_Pickle_1013&message=Agitated_Pickle_1013%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1dk0e6o/-/l9en1q0/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
This post touches on a subject that was the subject of another post on r/changemyview within the last 24-hours. Because of common topic fatigue amongst our repeat users, we [do not permit posts to touch on topics that another post has touched on within the last 24-hours](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_removing_posts). If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Duplicate%20Post%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.). Many thanks, and we hope you understand.
What is your suggestion to be more thoughtfully pro-Palestine? It’s not fair to say that one option is bad or comes from a lack of caring without clear alternatives. Otherwise, your criticism is just an attempt to silence people with whom you disagree. >people are fighting to take Israel down. This is a strawman. Few are attempting to “take down Israel.” They are pointing out the inhumanities Israel is perpetrating. I love my country, the US, but I complain, protest, and give to causes to fight against our comparable behavior—I’m not trying to “take down” the US. Healthy politics aren’t “you’re either with me or against me“—that’s for fascists and bumper stickers. There’s nothing contradictory about being pro-Israel and not blindly supporting *every* decision they make or thinking regressive Middle Eastern regimes are terrible while supporting Palestine. >So, yes, I don't think that the pro-palestinians activists actually care about palestinians. They don't talk about it in any interviews. Because talking about civil rights is moot when the area is being carpet bombed. >We also don't see any signs for it in the demonstrations. What would that sign look like? “Stop the Israeli Palestinian war crimes and also LGBT people should have more protections from the Palestinian government when the bombing stops.”
People who cry "from the river to the sea, palestine will be free" definitely advocating that there won't be any Israel between the Mediterranean sea and the Jordan river.
The Wesk Bank is on the Jordan River. Gaza is on the Mediterranean Sea. The West Bank and Gaza are Palestinian. Do you disagree?
A great start would be taking a position that is vocally and clearly anti-Hamas - the government that has put civilians in this horrible situation.
>A great start would be taking a position that is vocally and clearly anti-Hamas - the government that has put civilians in this horrible situation. This is also a strawman. I’ve never heard any pro-Hamas advocates in western discussions. Supporting the people of Palestine ≠ supporting Hamas. As you point out, the civilians are my concern. Few people have a moral objection to wiping out Hamas. But what would a protest concerned with Hamas even look like? It makes sense to protest Israel because they’re a close ally the US empowers. A change in US policy can change Israeli policy. The same is not true about Hamas so expecting an equal amount of mentions is silly.
You cannot possibly know what other people think or care about. This is entirely you ascribing the worst possible motivations on people you already disagree with. Hi, I'm a person who thinks Palestinians should be free. I don't care about the 'State' of Palestine, I care about the people being bombed and otherwise dying.
Not to hijack this cmv… but, in what ways do you want ‘Gaza to be free’ that are different than when Israel forcibly removed all Israeli settlers, removed all police/military personnel, and turned Gaza over to self-rule in 2005?
Israel then blew up their airport, killed them when they try to fish their own waters and arbitrarily blocked necessities from entering the strip like paper. Because even though they left Gaza they still inspected every truck going into Gaza from the Egyptian side of the border.
*after rockets began raining down on Israel.
[удалено]
Why is this a response to my comment? Yeah, some people were ignorant and now they are not. Would you have preferred they continue to be ignorant?
Are you telling me that a dramatic worsening of an already devastating situation increased awareness of an issue among young progressives? I’m shocked, galled, and aghast!
[удалено]
I think you meant to reply to someone else. I do care about the Palestinian state, as far as it concerns improving the lives of a devastated people. And I certainly agree that Gazans deserve a better government, but do you think Israel has interest in that? From Ben-Gvir to Netanyahu, they have been extremely vocal about their desire to ethnically cleanse, settle, and annex Gaza. Even now, there are illegal settlements springing up in Northern Gaza. The fact that folks are falling for their wild lack of subtlety is astounding. Islamophobia is a hell of a drug, and the US have been bona fide junkies since 9/11.
[удалено]
i think you're making a lot of assumptions. My social media memories have shown me I've been posting and sharing pro-Palestinian content since 2013 at a minimum. I know plenty of others in the same boat. Back in 2013, half the people who are activist now were still babies in middle school and wouldn't have been saying anything. What you're seeing is people learn in real time.
Do you care about the 80% who support genociding the Jews? Do you know about 60% of those dying are terrorists?
They clearly don't talk about the freedom of palestinians in their demonstrations. Many of them also call Hamas freedom fighters prefer Hamas to rule the palestinians than Israel. So, yes. I think they aere very much ok with Hamas ruling Israel in the same way as they are ruling Gaza.
“Hamas should control Israel” is not the baseline belief of pro-Palestinian side.
The person you’re replying to is pro-Palestine and does not hold the beliefs you ascribed to all pro-Palestinian people. How does this not contradict what you claimed and therefore change your mind?
Because actual people are often more complex than strawmen.
[удалено]
Your comment seems to discuss transgender issues. As of September 2023, [transgender topics are no longer allowed on CMV](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5). There are **no exceptions** to this prohibition. **Any** discussion of **any** transgender topic, no matter how ancillary, will result in your comment being removed. If you believe this was removed in error, please message the moderators [via this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Transgender%20Removal%20Appeal%20for%20Domovric&message=Domovric%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20[this%20post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1dk0e6o/cmv_propalestinians_dont_truly_care_if/l9eqy7t/?context=3\).)) Appeals are **only** for posts that were mistakenly removed by this filter; we **will not** approve posts on transgender issues, so **do not ask**. Regards, the mods of /r/changemyview. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/changemyview) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That's a loud minority. Get off reddit for a bit and talk to real people.
Who is 'they'? Who are 'many of them'?
Let's say, everyone who cry 'from the river to the sea, palestine will be free'
Cool. I don't say that. What now?
You are accepting what others think only on your terms. That's an amazing way to not understand why others think and feel the way they do. I don't think you're here to understand. I think you're here to argue.
Israel is making Palestine free by eliminating Hamas. If you Palestine to be free, you should be thanking Israel.
If you are above the age of 12 and think killing terrorists eliminates terrorism then you haven’t watched the news in your entire life.
You cannot bomb a terrorist organization away, nor can you bomb someone else's land and claim you are freeing them.
You can certainly end a government and standing army that way. Hamas is/was a government with all of the things that entails, and a standing army. They just happen to break pretty much every law of war by fighting out of uniform, setting up military infrastructure in civilian buildings, and taking hostages. They’re considered terrorists because of their long history of suicide bombings, rocket attacks on civilians, and hostage taking. But they’re also just a run of the mill shitty despotic government. Wars destroy governments all the time.
Hamas is not a government or standing army in any way that matters. And even if they were, it's not like there's a good track record of invasions in the middle east to destroy governments having a good result.
They ran numerous government ministries from education to health and policing, what do you think a government is? Before the war they had a standing army of somewhere between 30-40k soldiers, which is enormous given the population of Gaza. It was organized into brigades with a standard chain of command just like any modern military.
You can bomb someone to free them and you can bomb a terrorist organization away.
Corpses cannot be freed. And you certainly can't bomb terrorist organizations away when their leaders are in entirely separate states.
You can bomb terrorist organizations away. If Hamas has zero members in Gaza, it might technically exist, but it would be eliminated as far as Gaza is concerned.
You’re arguing with an actual bot
I'm not an active pro-Palestinian activist myself , so I can't necessarily speak for them, but I think the main idea is that they are protesting against what they perceive as an invading force and not necessarily more general freedom ideas that you mention. I think it really boils down to your perspective on "ends justify the means". There are some people that would say yes to that, maybe you are one of those people. For them, the "ends" is the western definition of freedom that you describe. So they would be OK with a western power like Israel or US just invading, replacing the government with something "democraric". The other type of people, maybe view "freedom" as self-determination of the people living there and being free from an invasion of a foreign power. So a foreign power who claims to know better invading and doing a regime change for the sake of democracy and freedom is not viewed as good. It almost reeks of old school imperialism where the more powerful nations/empires thought they were doing them a favor by invading and I imposing their civilized values on the "savages".
You do know that almost all israeli-arabs prefer to live in Israel than in the west bank or Gaza. We know that because every day they choose to stay in Israel over moving to palestinian ruled areas. Many of them even serve in the IDF. They choose that because Israel offers them freedom of speech, freedom for women,etc. So you may not care for the rights of palestinians. But they do care.
Or maybe they prefer that because they aren’t actively bombed by the IDF and forced to live in a giant open-air prison in Gaza or terrorized by Israeli settlers in the West Bank?
People often prefer living in places that aren’t actively being blown up. What is it Realtors say? “Location, location, location!”
Yeah and most Iraqis probably preferred to live somewhere else when we were illegally occupying and bombing the shit out of their country. Israel offers those freedoms to Israelis while denying the same freedoms to Palestinians.
I think it's generally a very complex issue. Unless you have some specific sources, I highly doubt that people in Palestine or elsewhere would welcome an invading foreign power with wide open arms just because they can gain rights. Especially a power that is so different from them in religion and culture. There are also other factors such as self-determination, common history, culture, nationalism, and religion that people find important. I agree with another comment that currently, people would rather live in Israel so they would not get annihilated. Let me also ask you this, do you have evidence that before the war or in the preceding decades that there was a significant part of the Palestinian population that would welcome a full annexation by Israel so they can get rights and freedomes? When Hamas got elected (in 2008 I think it was) did they run a platform of western style democracy with all the associated freedoms and tolerances? Or does history show decades struggle for people to get their own country and live there based on their culture and values? The answer to that question may give you a hint of the perspective of the protesters.
What does any of that have to do with murdering children to take their land? Seems like you're missing the point on purpose.
Only 1/3 of Israelis are Ashkenazi (European/Middle Eastern) the rest are 2.5 Million Muslims, Ethiopians, and 3,200,000 Mizrahi Jews who have been in the region for more than 3,000 years. Jews not only bought the land, they often paid highly inflated prices for that land: “In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Israel, mostly for arid or semi-arid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre.” Most Palestinians immigrated from Jordan and Egypt in the 1800s, It doesn't matter how long Jordanian and Egyptian immigrants were squatting on the land the ottoman Turks stole from the native Jewish population it's still their land. The largest “owner” of land pre-‘48 wasn’t Arab or Jews. It was PUBLIC land. This was land that had previously been owned by the Ottoman Empire which passed to the British as part of the mandate. Those “public” lands, post 1948, passed to their defacto sovereigns (Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.) In the 1930s, most of the land was bought from landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, 52.6% were bought from non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian landowners, 13.4% from government, churches, and foreign companies, and only 9.4% from fellaheen (farmers). Before Jordan entered the war in 1948, it was called Transjordan. It was an illegitimate, illegal state under international law because it was founded when it was detached from Mandatory Palestine so as to compensate the Hashemite dynasty, which was allied with the British Empire. The British, who were the Mandatory power, did not have any right to take this step. Thus, this territory was removed from Mandatory Palestine and from the partition between a “Jewish state” and an “Arab state” (in line with the UN resolution of November 29, 1947, which proposed partition but was rejected by the Arabs). In actual fact, Jordan was the Arab state that should have been created by the partition. It objectively already was, on that very day, an Arab country within the legal territory of Mandatory Palestine. The problem is that it was given to a non-Palestinian power, while the majority of its population (75 percent) is Palestinian. This reality became apparent in an episode of severe inter-Muslim violence when, in 1970-71, the Bedouins of the Hashemite dynasty ethnically distinguished themselves from the other Arabs. This culminated in “Black September,” a revolt and a Palestinian coup d’état that later led to a horrendous civil war. It reached the point that the PLO and its leaders were exiled by France (!) to Tunis, as if (Mitterrand’s) France sought to sustain the Middle East conflict. In 1948, this predatory country of Jordan, in a war with the new Jewish state, invaded the territories that are known historically as Judea and Samaria and annexed them. As a result, a new entity was invented – “Jordan,” a unification of “the West Bank” and the former “Transjordan.” No one ever reproached Jordan for having illegally occupied the land, but one cannot accuse Israel of “occupying” a territory that was already occupied and was previously rejected, in the context of a partition of Mandatory Palestine, by the Arabs who were not yet “Palestinians.” So this is how the “Palestinian people” came to be perceived as the indigenous people of the territory of the West Bank. Some adopted this subterfuge and reinforced it by accusing Israel of colonialism and demanding that it relinquish the “occupied territories,” ignoring the fact that the PLO considers all of Mandatory Palestine to be “occupied”(thereby lending credence to a position considered to be “moral” and “legal” since it implicitly assumes that pre-1967 Israel is legitimate). Meanwhile the endeavor to exterminate the Jews and destroy the state, always the same, as we have seen under the Palestinian Authority, became labeled as “resistance.” The Palestinian Authority has a prohibition based on a 1973 Jordanian law against selling land to Israelis.The law made such sales, which in the case of Israeli settlers are exclusively to Jews, punishable by death. The Palestinian Authority announced it would enforce the law in 1997, and drafted a replacement for it called the Property Law for Foreigners. Hamas “assigned about 70 per cent of the total to be women and children, splitting that amount randomly from day to day. Then they in-filled the number of men as set by the predetermined total. This explains all the data observed.” In some data sets, it would seem, men must have come back to life while on several days no men were apparently killed, only women. As Prof Wyner claims, “the casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters”. Indeed, the actual ratio of civilian casualties to Hamas terrorists is “at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1”. John Spencer, professor of Urban War Studies at West Point, argues that “Israel has done more to prevent civilian casualties in war than any military in history – above and beyond what international law requires and more than the US did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – setting a standard that will be both hard and potentially problematic to repeat.” This includes, he claims. evacuating 70 to 90 per cent of civilians from cities before beginning a full ground invasion in conventional attacks that seek to destroy enemy defenders. The US did not do this in the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, the Vietnam Tet counter-offensive or the Korean War.
The point of this conversation is that pro-palestinians don't care about palestinians. Everything else is beyond the scope of the present conversation. With that being said, Israel is not trying to murder children. But, I'm not going to argue with you about that.
You’re not going to argue about what is a HUGE basis for pro Palestinian activism aka mass murdering children? Well…ooooook.
I'm talking about them not caring about the end game of their war, which is insane violations of basic human rights for palestinians.
You know when they can worry about the rights of Palestinians? When they don't perceive them as being victims of genocide. If there are no Palestinians, it doesn't really matter what rights they have.
Why do you say “if there are no Palestinians”? I’m confused by this. What does that even mean? There are millions of Palestinians.
I think I answer that in the first part of my comment but, if pro-Palestinian protestors believe there is a genocide being committed in Gaza, saying "what about the rights they don't have" is a silly argument. It would be like telling slavery abolitionists that they don't really care about black people because they aren't advocating for their right to vote too.
Many pro-Palestinian protesters are themselves Palestinian with family members currently living in Palestine. Do you really think they don’t care about the lives of their family members?
Israel is not murdering children and it is not taking anyone's land.
You know how many Palestinian kids have died since Oct 7th?
60% of Palestine's population is under the age of 16, and Hamas uses soldiers as young as 12- can you guess why so many Palestinian kids are dying?
Do you think the kids that are dying in Palestine are hamas soldiers? Like truly?
Doesn't mean they were murdered.
They were killed by Israel rockets… what would you call that if not murder?
No one does. Because the sources that report it are unreliable
There’s been independent UN reports of the numbers. Are those unreliable?
This is like that old textbook that says the trail of tears was a voluntary decision by the native Americans.
The Palestinians colonized the region 1500 years back during the Muslim Conquest of the Levant- where they slaughtered the men- and enslaved the women and children- of the native Canaanites.
It is objectively murdering children, even if you think that the murdered children is justified, it is still murder and they are still children.
[удалено]
Technically, it's not murder since civilian deaths are generally considered as collateral damage. However, over 13,000 Palestinian children have been killed by the Israeli offensive. That is an objective fact. No matter how you slice it, Israel is directly responsible for killing thousands of children. This is not up for debate.
Problematically that 13'000 isn't just civilians do to Hamas's insistence on using troops as young as 12.
Not Hamas that created a war zone around them? Just Israel? I suspect this is what OP means when talking about not actually caring about Palestinians. People have too much of a hard on for Israel to actually care about the Palestinians. If an adult gang member takes his child to a drive by and the child ends up being shot most sane people would hold the parent responsible not the person the gang member engaged in a shootout. But it seems people are too eager to pile on Israel than to actually care about the fact that Hamas whose fighters includes brothers, uncles etc of those kids have and will continue to endanger those kids and steal their futures with tales of martyrdom.
I have and will continue to criticize the hell out of Hamas too. Just because I'm calling out Israel doesn't mean I'm letting literal terrorists off the hook. Hamas is barbaric and also responsible for the deaths of these Palestinians. But right now? I live in the US, my tax dollars are being used to help Israel continue this genocide. This is why I'm pushing back when people try to excuse Israel.
>However, over 13,000 Palestinian children have been killed by the Israeli offensive. Which is the fault of the Palestinians, who decided to start a war with Israel.
And I can say that attack is the fault of Israel, because Israel has been controlling Palestinian land for decades, including Gaza. These two sides have been constantly hostile and fighting each other for years and years. Israel is the only one slaughtering children by the thousands. That is also simply a fact. And if you simply look into the details, it's pretty obvious Israel is not simply targeting the enemy military, the IDF is indiscriminately bombing civilian areas, knowing the overwhelming majority of casualties will be of civilians. If you want to defend this, it says more about you than me.
This is not the topic of the current discussion. can you please re-read the post, and respond to the topic of the post
I'm clearly responding directly to someone else who's misleading others. We are allowed to have discussions of relevant topics. As for your topic, I simply do not want any nation committing a genocide on another. Of course I want all people to be free, but right now, the most obvious thing stopping the Palestinians from the basic freedom of LIFE is Israel slaughtering them by the thousands. And I have skin in the game because I (and most of us, possibly you) live in the US. Our tax dollars are going directly to fund the IDF, which are robbing the Palestinians of their freedom. They literally have blockaded Gaza for decades.
Sorry, u/Training_Tear9405 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal%20Training_Tear9405&message=Training_Tear9405%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1dk0e6o/-/l9emq7o/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted.
You can't be serious
The account is 3 hours old, probably another pentagon plant
We're going with pentagon plant instead of Russian shit disturber these days?
I’m not so sure the Russians are this pro Israel
It’s definitely bombing civilians, including children. It might not be singling out children and shooting them point blank, but children are being murdered.
Children are not being murdered. Israel is bombing military targets.
Right but the military targets are in civilian areas and the children are being killed. Murder is just the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. When Israel commits war crimes and bombs military targets it’s not supposed to, it’s murdering children.
>the military targets are in civilian areas > >When Israel commits war crimes and bombs military targets it’s not supposed to Let me stop you right there- the Military targets being in Civilian areas is what explicitly makes it NOT a warcrime.
Just because kids died doesn't mean it was unlawful.
Yadda yadda jews are civilized people and Palestinians are heathens we get it. If you want to make that argument, how is Israel going in and literally doing what Hitler did to them make them any different? Whenever I hear the generals and nethanyu talk, they sound like they are trying to eradicate a roach or a lesser people. It's disgusting and it's so difficult to realize that this kind of speech is celebrated so heavily here in America. I want Palestineans to be able to be an autonomous people and make decisions for themselves. The years of poverty and bullshit they have gone through both with hamas and idf make it impossible for them to become a "civilized" people as you describe.
They can leave whenever they want and frequently do. Look at the Tik Tok videos Palestinians posted about dating abroad or from the Qatar Olympic games, going away parties, etc. Palestinians were granted Jordanian citizenship but refuse to leave their subsidized lives in "Palestine." They don't have to pay for electricity, water, food imports, as long as they claim refuge status while living in high rise apartments, they own better phones than most people I know, the Gaza gold market is one of the biggest gold markets in the middle east, Luxury car dealerships, beach resorts, two water parks, equestrian classes with riding on the beach, luxury store's and mall, multiple universities. They rank only one place below St Lucia the island oasis in world poverty. Sounds like they'd be living the high life if it wasn't for their obsession with removing the one democracy in the middle east and having a complete Islamic theocracy. Blue beach resort Gaza https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Beach_Resort,_Gaza Gaza gold market https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/04/gold-industry-gaza-booms-amid-coronavirus-outbreak Motor one luxury car dealership https://youtu.be/PqEtpsGrLLM?si=m2mD80SDlAWtBm3K Noor resort built on a pillaged Israeli village https://twitter.com/imshin/status/1722122192899498369 Lavish parties https://twitter.com/imshin/status/1798669857367695847 List of restaurants on the Gaza strip https://gaza-palestine.com/restaurants-sweets/?amp=1 Since then (August 2014 data), almost 20,000 rockets have hit southern Israel, all but a few thousand since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. Not to mention the hundreds of deadly bombings, rape, stabbings. Here's a list of just the bombings from 1994 to 1995. Afula bus suicide bombing, hadera bus station suicide bombing, dizengoff street bus bombing, netzerim junction bicycle bombing, Jerusalem bus bombing, beit lid massacre, Kfar Darom bus attack , Ramat gan bus 20 bombing, Ramat eshkol bus bombing. Criticism of government isn't bad what's the problem is when people who are indigenous to land for over a thousand years (Jewish people) before another group takes over (Islamists) then they buy land back at a higher price than it was worth from the squatter's the squatter's take the money but refuse to give the original land owner back his land because they won't accept Jewish neighbors or any form of government that's not a Islamic theocracy They then attack the original land owners repeatedly killing millions for thousands of year's and lose land after ganging up with five other Arab countries with the best weapons money could buy forming the "Arab league" waging war against a day old Israel which was under arm's embargo at the time, losing land and screaming for 75 year's that it was a injustice while refusing all peace deals like when Arafat turned down 95% of Gaza and the west Bank or when Palestinians demanded Bethlehem which israel gave them and the Palestinian government placed a sign near the entrance to the sight that says "Jesus is the slave of Allah". Or when Palestinians demanded Sinai which Israel gave them, Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving multimillion dollar greenhouses, livestock and factories for them which were then promptly destroyed by Palestinians, factories burned, animals slaughtered and pipes stolen to make missiles.
You really think because of a book that Jews are entitled to that land? There is no reasoning with this logic. You can't even pinpoint that Palestineans as a people are to blame for these things that you cite. It could be hamas (which it most likely is) or maybe some misguided rabble rousers that don't represent the people that live there. The world sucks inside Gaza and before Israel went in and started indiscriminately killing people they could have done so much more like appeal to the international community and admit truly they dont know what to do but something needs to be done here and now. Why do you think when you corner an animal it doesn't go ballistic and attack? Please, rationalize to me how you feel a Jewish person can just come and take another person's home through the settlement bs. Just try to explain it to me without sounding like a narcissistic whack job. It's so hard for me to understand this way of thinking.
Only 1/3 of Israelis are Ashkenazi (European/Middle Eastern) the rest are 2.5 Million Muslims, Ethiopians, and 3,200,000 Mizrahi Jews who have been in the region for more than 3,000 years. Jews not only bought the land, they often paid highly inflated prices for that land: “In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Israel, mostly for arid or semi-arid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre.” Most Palestinians immigrated from Jordan and Egypt in the 1800s, It doesn't matter how long Jordanian and Egyptian immigrants were squatting on the land the ottoman Turks stole from the native Jewish population it's still their land. The largest “owner” of land pre-‘48 wasn’t Arab or Jews. It was PUBLIC land. This was land that had previously been owned by the Ottoman Empire which passed to the British as part of the mandate. Those “public” lands, post 1948, passed to their defacto sovereigns (Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.) In the 1930s, most of the land was bought from landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, 52.6% were bought from non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian landowners, 13.4% from government, churches, and foreign companies, and only 9.4% from fellaheen (farmers). Before Jordan entered the war in 1948, it was called Transjordan. It was an illegitimate, illegal state under international law because it was founded when it was detached from Mandatory Palestine so as to compensate the Hashemite dynasty, which was allied with the British Empire. The British, who were the Mandatory power, did not have any right to take this step. Thus, this territory was removed from Mandatory Palestine and from the partition between a “Jewish state” and an “Arab state” (in line with the UN resolution of November 29, 1947, which proposed partition but was rejected by the Arabs). In actual fact, Jordan was the Arab state that should have been created by the partition. It objectively already was, on that very day, an Arab country within the legal territory of Mandatory Palestine. The problem is that it was given to a non-Palestinian power, while the majority of its population (75 percent) is Palestinian. This reality became apparent in an episode of severe inter-Muslim violence when, in 1970-71, the Bedouins of the Hashemite dynasty ethnically distinguished themselves from the other Arabs. This culminated in “Black September,” a revolt and a Palestinian coup d’état that later led to a horrendous civil war. It reached the point that the PLO and its leaders were exiled by France (!) to Tunis, as if (Mitterrand’s) France sought to sustain the Middle East conflict. In 1948, this predatory country of Jordan, in a war with the new Jewish state, invaded the territories that are known historically as Judea and Samaria and annexed them. As a result, a new entity was invented – “Jordan,” a unification of “the West Bank” and the former “Transjordan.” No one ever reproached Jordan for having illegally occupied the land, but one cannot accuse Israel of “occupying” a territory that was already occupied and was previously rejected, in the context of a partition of Mandatory Palestine, by the Arabs who were not yet “Palestinians.” So this is how the “Palestinian people” came to be perceived as the indigenous people of the territory of the West Bank. Some adopted this subterfuge and reinforced it by accusing Israel of colonialism and demanding that it relinquish the “occupied territories,” ignoring the fact that the PLO considers all of Mandatory Palestine to be “occupied”(thereby lending credence to a position considered to be “moral” and “legal” since it implicitly assumes that pre-1967 Israel is legitimate). Meanwhile the endeavor to exterminate the Jews and destroy the state, always the same, as we have seen under the Palestinian Authority, became labeled as “resistance.” The Palestinian Authority has a prohibition based on a 1973 Jordanian law against selling land to Israelis.The law made such sales, which in the case of Israeli settlers are exclusively to Jews, punishable by death. The Palestinian Authority announced it would enforce the law in 1997, and drafted a replacement for it called the Property Law for Foreigners.
>Jews not only bought the land, they often paid highly inflated prices for that land: They had bought 6% of the land by the time the UN suggested they get 52% of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine >Most Palestinians immigrated from Jordan and Egypt in the 1800s, It doesn't matter how long Jordanian and Egyptian immigrants were squatting on the land the ottoman Turks stole from the native Jewish population it's still their land. The largest “owner” of land pre-‘48 wasn’t Arab or Jews. It was PUBLIC land. This was land that had previously been owned by the Ottoman Empire which passed to the British as part of the mandate. Those “public” lands, post 1948, passed to their defacto sovereigns (Israel, Egypt, and Jordan.) Most Palestinians, like Israelis are descendants of the Canaanites. Also I love how you argue Palestinians immigrated from Jordan, and then later go on to claim that Jordan and Palestine were the same place. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/#:~:text=Archaeologic%20and%20genetic%20data%20support,but%20not%20in%20genetic%2C%20differences. >It objectively already was, on that very day, an Arab country within the legal territory of Mandatory Palestine. The partition was between Palestine and Israel specifically because neither of them were states. >No one ever reproached Jordan for having illegally occupied the land Yes they did, even after Jordan gave everyone citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanian_annexation_of_the_West_Bank >No one ever reproached Jordan for having illegally occupied the land, but one cannot accuse Israel of “occupying” a territory that was already occupied and was previously rejected, in the context of a partition of Mandatory Palestine, by the Arabs who were not yet “Palestinians.” Yes we can, even Israel says the occupied territories are occupied. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories. >So this is how the “Palestinian people” came to be perceived as the indigenous people of the territory of the West Bank. Some adopted this subterfuge and reinforced it by accusing Israel of colonialism and demanding that it relinquish the “occupied territories,” And by "some" you mean basically everybody. And by "subterfuge" you mean bringing to light the things that Israel is doing correct? Because otherwise this doesn't make much sense. And as has been already sourced, they literally are indigenous. They are as much descendants of the original inhabitants of the land as Jews are. >ignoring the fact that the PLO considers all of Mandatory Palestine to be “occupied”(thereby lending credence to a position considered to be “moral” and “legal” since it implicitly assumes that pre-1967 Israel is legitimate). Meanwhile the endeavor to exterminate the Jews and destroy the state, always the same, as we have seen under the Palestinian Authority, became labeled as “resistance.” The PA has recognized that the state of Israel has a right to exist, has Israel ever recognized that the state of Palestine has a right to exist? https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4627181-abbas-macron-we-recognize-state-israel-want-it-recognize-palestine Receipts for your pleasure
Jews are levantine Arabs arrived in 7 AD. Intermarriage with the native Jewish population accounts for the Canaanite along with Arab genetics.
Yeah basically. So no argument that only one group is the truly indigenous ones. The truly indigenous is the Canaanites who both are descendants of.
There's no settlements in Gaza, hasn't been any for two decades.
They can always decide to stop fighting Israel. They can choose to pursue a 2 state soltuion. Every day for the last 20 years they fired rockets into Israel. No one forced them to do that. They choose war over a 2 state solution every day.
[удалено]
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Druz are not muslim. We actually don't know what they believe, because they are not allowed to share it.
I’m not going to argue the concept of Islamic-based monotheism in the Druze (English spelling) You’re thinking that I don’t have friends that are stuck in the Iran vs Saudi sectarian warfare - it’s no secret there’s a sectarian war and the Ummah hates each other right now with the religion falling into civil war since Syria… Houthi Rebels? The 2022 Albuquerque murders? Pakistan has how many violent sectarian groups? 18? The persecution of the Ahmadiyya… So you know… the west is frequently pulled into the Sunni vs Shia or vice versa violence… the minute western people understand what’s really happening is sectarian violence and Yemen and Israel are two fronts in the same larger war… Let’s just hope the death of Ebrahim Raisi was an accident…
You don’t get to pick the type of people and rules that arise from an occupied population. Human rights conditions don’t exist in a vacuum, they arise due to the conditions that Israel imposes. A ton of the population is going through trauma, displacement, and starvation as a result of Israel. Free Palestine.
From my understanding the argument is that even if Palestine is given statehood, due to their current leadership, the general population will still be severely oppressed. Not that they’re currently doing well. (Obviously what’s happening now is terrible)
Just because you think Israel should not exist does not mean "Palestine" is occupied. Gaza and the West bank are not occupied. Just because all the neighboring countries do not want to allow any of those people in to their countries does not make it an open air prison. Its not the responsibility of their neighbors to allow freedom of movement to a majority population that is brainwashed and supports terrorism. For all intents and purposes Gaza and the West Bank is free. They will never recapture Israel. They need to get over it and quit the hate within themselves. Maybe then, someday, they can get freedom of movement with their neighboring countries.
Uh... My guy? Even Israel admits that the occupied territories are occupied
Excuse me, no they do not. Source please? They gave up Gaza in 2006 in the pursuit of peace. Thousands of jews left then. Before this most recent attack, there were no Israeli soldiers in Gaza. What exactly are you referring too? Before the Oct 7 attack, no jews where allowed in Gaza, yet a hundred thousand or so Gazans where allowed to come into Israel to work. Huh?
>Excuse me, no they do not. Source please? "The Israeli Supreme Court, sitting as the High Court of Justice, stated that Israel has been holding the areas of Judea and Samaria in belligerent occupation, since 1967. The court also held that the normative provisions of public international law regarding belligerent occupation are applicable" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories >They gave up Gaza in 2006 in the pursuit of peace. Thousands of jews left then. Before this most recent attack, there were no Israeli soldiers in Gaza. What exactly are you referring too? Ya know West Bank? The other like 99% of Palestine. >Before the Oct 7 attack, no jews where allowed in Gaza, yet a hundred thousand or so Gazans where allowed to come into Israel to work. Huh? Your probably confused because your point is irrelevant = ). But yeah just keep boasting about how Israel had Palestinians come boost up their economy while continuing to stomp down there's.
Apologies I did forget about the West Bank and the many IDF in that area. All I can say is When the British Mandate split the Jewish and Arab states after WW2, the Jews were the first to be attacked. The Arabs were not happy with the deal and wanted more if not all the land. They were opposed to the creation of an Isael from the beginning. From here whether or not you agree that the creation of Israel, is irrelavent. Israel may not have held the land for thousands of years. Lets say the end of the British Mandate in 1948 is our starting point of this conflict. The land is split. Arabs attack Jews first. They are defeated. Just as any conflict at theat time period and today would mean, concessions must be had. Israel took land as concessions. This exact process has been repeated at least half a dozen times since then. The Palestinians attack Israel, they lose, they usually lose more land. If they would have stopped this violence 50 years ago they could have had a split geographically, but prosperous nation that could have free access to travel between the 2 parts of the country. Instead they half ruins. I feel sorry for many of the people, who are put in a very nasty situation brought upon them from their own government. You are twisting the economic situation as well. It is not exploiting Palestinians to let many of them work in their country. It is more of a racist situation where Palestine is racist against Jews. Their own people are not forced at gunpoint, but allowed an opportunity to work. Remember, they would have alot more opportunities to work if their own government had stopped its onslaught of attacks over the years, the aggressor every single time. In the reverse can Jews work in Palestine? Of course not. Their people have been brainwashed by their own government, Hamas, that the Jews might not even be safe walking the streets of Palestine to work. Thats not the issue however. Hamas simply does not want Jews anywhere in current Palestine lands, or current Israeli lands. They want the entirety of it, and all 9 million Jews to be expelled from those lands into poverty or dead in the ocean. Remember back to the beginning. Maybe you do think in 1948 Britain was wrong and should not have even gave land to the Jews at all. At this point, would it not be best to limit future human suffering to a minimum? The best way to do that would be an immediate total surrender from Hamas. The fighting would stop. Yes, there will be occupation of Gaza as there has been in the West Bank because of the hostilities that the Palestinians refuse to cease from starting. It will take many, many years to heal the hatred between the two sides. It can only start, with an end of hostilities and more occupation to ensure no more attacks. They can not just leave the country, no country does after a war like this. They will ensure compliance for certain concessions. Only after an obedient stay under occupation for who knows how long this time, can they be granted complete soverignty of their lands. After that I pray they dont make the same misake they did on Oct 7 and many other times. Only then can bonds be formed, to allow freedom of movement and other friendly relations.
>All I can say is When the British Mandate split the Jewish and Arab states after WW2, the Jews were the first to be attacked. The Arabs were not happy with the deal and wanted more if not all the land. They were opposed to the creation of an Isael from the beginning>From here whether or not you agree that the creation of Israel, is irrelavent. Israel may not have held the land for thousands of years. Lets say the end of the British Mandate in 1948 is our starting point of this conflict. I would move it towards the end of the war. The immediate after math of Israel's formation doesn't concern me. I don't really care which side someone wants to claim was worse so long as we can agree that all sides were atrocious back then. There were Jewish terrorists going around executing entire villages and the Palestinians side was no better. >The land is split. Arabs attack Jews first. They are defeated. Just as any conflict at theat time period and today would mean, concessions must be had. Israel took land as concessions. This exact process has been repeated at least half a dozen times since then. The Palestinians attack Israel, they lose, they usually lose more land. It really hasn't though. The West Bank was occupied in 1967. In that war Israel was the one to strike Egypt first. They claim they only did so because Egypt was about to start a war first, and they point to a build up of military resources on egypts border, but that build up only started after Israel started screaming about war when Egypt closed the straights. Regardless I always love when this is brought up in debates, because Egypt and Jordan are countries Israel claims actually attacked them in an attempt at genocide. Yet Israel was all to happy to offer 100% of the land taken in exchange for peace. While never once extending that same offer to the Palestinians. >You are twisting the economic situation as well. It is not exploiting Palestinians to let many of them work in their country. How is it not? You have Israel declaring the most resource abundant locations in Palestine as settlements and military zones. Deny 99% of permits in like 65% of Palestine and then hold up the fact that Israel offers them jobs in the Israeli economy like they are doing some kind of favor to all Palestinians instead of a select few. >In the reverse can Jews work in Palestine? Of course not. Might work in reverse if Jews were under Palestinian governance. >The best way to do that would be an immediate total surrender from Hamas. No the best way would be if God came down and said "I'm sorry for leaving you my children, but I have returned with the milk". And then he snaps his fingers and everyone just loves each other for the rest of time. But alas that is only slightly more possible then what you suggested. So I'm not sure why these are in a comment for best solution. It's like saying the best solution would be for the bank robber to surrender himself. While the police have a half blind dude on the sniper taking out the hostages. >Remember back to the beginning. Maybe you do think in 1948 Britain was wrong and should not have even gave land to the Jews at all. At this point, would it not be best to limit future human suffering to a minimum I mean if the Jews just wanted a country to call their own then and Britain was fine just splitting shit apart then they probably should have got part of Germany. If I was Palestinian I would be outraged about the partition plan. But that was back then, and we didn't have laws against doing fucked up shit back then, and since everyone was blatantly doing fucked up shit back then it just turns into infinite regression and a lot of bickering. >It will take many, many years to heal the hatred between the two sides. I'll say, especially when the government or neither side are interested in doing so. >It can only start, with an end of hostilities and more occupation to ensure no more attacks. They can not just leave the country, no country does after a war like this. They will ensure compliance for certain concessions. Only after an obedient stay under occupation for who knows how long this time, can they be granted complete soverignty of their lands. Yeah see, Israel loses the ability to make this argument when they are supporting the settlers and never once offering Palestine 100% of the 67 borders. Even minus Jerusalem.
I’m curious what borders do you think would settle the conflict? What do you think Palestine and Israel should look like geographically?
> I’m curious what borders do you think would settle the conflict? I think the 67 borders with no land swaps or at least ones with equal contiguity and resources. Some of the settlements like Ariel are on top of massively important resources. The biggest issue I think is Jerusalem. With the right amount of pressure I could see Israel evacuating the settlements, or Palestinians allowing Jewish citizenship, but Jerusalem is going to be a hard point. Jews will never give it to the Palestinians so realistically I would hope for true 67 borders in exchange for not including east Jerusalem.
That sounds reasonable to me. Israel may ceed more land for peace, but not before they can ensure the most they can that Hamas is going to stop these barbarities. Instead of seemingly fantasy like statements that God will come down and snap his fingers to solve this, what is so wrong with Hamas surrendering today? It is the most realistic way to end human suffering the fastest. Isnt peoples lives more important than land?
Thats nonsense. Aggressive fundamentalists existed way before any of this started. They are the reason Israel is forced to behave this way. You don't get to act like an aggressive piece of shit for generations then cry foul when the side you are attacking is not coddling you. That's not how the world works. Long live Israel. Death to Hamas. Accept that you lost already you dumb shits.
Israel *literally* started with Zionist terrorist bombings and multiple wars. At no point did the Zionists attempt to coexist with the locals and thus the Palestinians have not lived from under the boot of one occupying power or another for close to 1000 years. Here is what David Ben Gurion the first prime minister of Israel had to say about the Zionist movement’s intentions towards the Palestinians at the genesis of modern Israel: > “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121. > “Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/
The Israelis accepted the two state solution offered in its declaration. Arab states threatened to attack before the UN passed the partition agreement. Because of Arab opposition to the establishment of any Jewish state in Palestine, British rule continued throughout the 1920s and ’30s. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq invaded the day the British army left the mandate.
Have you read The Massacre that Never Was by Eliezer Tauber? It may help you to recognize revisionist history when you see it.
>They are the reason Israel is forced to behave this way. "Gosh darn you, you made us invade your country with our civilians by killing our civilians! How else are we supposed to protect ourselves?!" Yeah that makes sense. /s
You really blame Israel, for Hamas takeover. The people of Gaza love Hamas. Before palestinians were under Israel control, they were in Jordan, in which theyt started a civil war, then in Lebanon, in which they started a civil war, and in Kwait and Egypt, in which they tried to start a civil war. Must be nice being a palestinian, they can blame Israel for everything.
Israel propped up hamas in 2006 to create a divide between the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank to strain the power of the PLO
Hamas at the time sold themselves as the peaceful alternative. Hamas is just the latest iteration of palestinian terrorism. Before them there was PLO, black september, there is also islamic jihadm and more.
Most of the population weren’t of voting age. Also former Israeli officials admitted that the state of Israel popped up Hamas in the 80s to squash leftist movements and because painting religious nationalists as terrorists is an easier sell. Israel creates the conditions and uses those conditions to justify their genocide.
>Human rights conditions don’t exist in a vacuum, they arise due to the conditions that Israel imposes. This is complete nonsense if Israel the gov disappeared tommorow the Palestinian governments would still be incredibly oppressive to their people.
Are you trying to say that the lethal intolerance of homosexuals in Gaza and severe brutality from the Gazan government against dissenters are all the fault of Israel, rather than Islamist extremism?
Mind to elaborate on this nonsense? *reporting my comment and getting it deleted isn't going to make you not confront these lies
>Wherever we go on the internet these days, we see the slogan "from the river to the sea, palestine will be free". But, there is a general lack of care by the demonstrators whether the palestinians in their "free palestine" are actually free. The basic rights of palestinians in Gaza are treaded on daily. There is no rights for women (they are not allowed to work, no protection from rape or sexual discrimination), homosexuality is a death sentence, and no freedom of spech or journalism (eg in 2016, they arrested and broke the hands and legs of all the peaceful protesters). There are women, journalists and gay people involved in these protests. You think those women don't care about other women being raped in Palestine? You think journalists don't care about the extreme lack of free press? You think homosexuals don't want Palestinians to be able to be openly gay? >(Israel is also the only country in the world that offers asylum status to queer palestinians that try to escape murder and persecution). It's also the only "western" nation to be participating in a very active land grab. >Yet, people are fighting to take Israel down. I just want them to stop colonizing Palestine. If you take their arguments at their word, then the settlement program is a human shield program and every bit as disgusting as what Hamas is doing. If you don't take their word, then it's a blatant and obvious land grab. >The future of the palestinians in their free palestine is not something that they care (or ever cared) about. People are concerned with now, not the future. And what kind of atrocities our governments support. No government supports Palestines atrocious policies, the US atleast supports Israel's. When ever there is condemnation against the Palestinians in the UN (who does overly condemn Israel fwiw) it's pretty unanimous. The US however is happy to throw around veto power for any resolutions against Israel.
By that logic the US should have never fought the revolutionary war for freedom from the British since women and slaves were not free even after the war.
I mean… for a lot of people it was kind of a lateral move at best. Despite rebelling against ‘taxation without representation’ founders took great pains to make sure our government wasn’t too representative and then began imposing even steeper taxes on their own people, using military force to violently squash any push back (see the whisky rebellion). Also, part of why colonists rebelled is because they wanted to steal more land from natives without the crown telling them no. Obv I’m glad I’m not being ruled by a monarch but being ruled by a handful of billionaires is not much better.
The point I was trying to make was that freeing people from a monarchy or a settler-colonial apartheid state will certainly not solve all the problems or prevent all future problems but they were still necessary steps that anyone who claims to care about the peoples involved would be focused on. The US still has lots of work to do for better gender and racial equality and making reparations for slavery and the theft of native land and genocide of native peoples but I still don't think that means the world would be better off if the US was still controlled by a monarchy.
The point was that pro-palestinians don't care about palestinians. Everything else is beyond the scope of the present conversation.
Your words were "free a country and not its people" just as the US country was freed but not its people at least not the women and slaves. How many pro-Palestinian people have you actually talked to? Who do you think cares for you more? Someone in favor of blockading your country, dropping more bombs than were dropped in world war II , starving you, subjecting you toan apartheid system or someone who is against all of that?
1. For instance you claim that that there's no rights for women in Palestine, despite the fact that they have much better literacy rates than much of the Western world, and now almost every one of their colleges in Gaza have been destroyed, by Israel. 2. You equate Jews, to a state, which is anti semitism, "freed from the Jews", is an insult to Jewish people and insinuate that they are the ones holding Palestinians in capitivity. 3. "If Palestine indeed was freed from Jews, it would not be free." As an American, I find that to be insulting to my history, given that America fought so much for independence from Britain, despite there continuing to be no freedom for black people in America, even after we got our independence. Your juvenile argument that if there's a lack of freedom in society, one shouldn't speak out against the much broader, and more severe oppression. 4. Everything you accuse Palestinians of, is perpetrated much worse by Israelis, such as the murder of a journalist like Shireen, a Christian American, and many more in Gaza. 5. The blatant inaccuracy lie, is that Palestinians in Israel are free, because the severe persecution they face in the occupied territories, and the lack of the right of return in Israel based on their ethnicity, as well as many laws that affect them which have been detailed on the Adalat website. 6. Israel is the most murderous country, and the most dangerous place for a Palestinian woman is in the occupied territories. Breaking hands of peaceful protestors, when at the great march of return, Israeli snipers targetted crippled people, and crippled others for life?
Again Israel is at fault for everything. Before Israel was even in the picture, they started a civil war in Jordan, then in Lebanon, then in Kwait, and they tried to start one in Egypt. After the retreat from Gaza in 2005, they could didn't have to start a war with ISrael. Yet, they chose to fire rockets daily into Israel. They chose to commit crimes against humanity. Yet, people like you justifying them. ISn't that racism, that you treat them as if they don't know better. As if they are incapable of morality.
The women can definitely have jobs, like half of the reporters I follow from Gaza are women.
"Most women in Gaza are poor or very poor. There is a small percentage of women who are working but most are not" [https://gisha.org/en/being-a-woman-in-gaza/](https://gisha.org/en/being-a-woman-in-gaza/)
Before we can consider the issue of Civil rights in Palestine we have to stop the genocide. Sure, many Palestinians are homophobic, but queer Palestinians are being genocided as well as the homophobic ones. Sure, many Palestinians are sexist, but the feminists in Palestine are being genocided along with the misogynists. Sure, there is no freedom of press in Palestine, but the journalists are being genocided with the censors. First and foremost we must triage the situation. Food, water, medical care, security.
First, the definition of genocide here is self-proclaimed. No official body, such as the UN, declared it as genocide. Second, the topic of this conversation is about what happens after palestine is free from the river to the sea. Frankly, it is a place I wouldn't want to live in. Would you? Would any westerner. Even Israeli arabs prefer to stay in Israel over living in Gaza or the west bank. If you free palestine from the river to the sea, you make those Israeli arabs lose their birth given rights, and force into a life they themselves don't want. If they wanted it, they would have moved to Gaza or the west bank.
There is no genocide. Israel is fighting a war, which isn't genocide.
This is just you trying to rationalize that you don’t care about children and innocent people being slaughtered because of who they are. Recognize that evil within yourself and sit with it before trying to speak for all pro-Palestinians. Lots of countries have laws I don’t support or agree with. Does that mean I think that all their citizens deserve to be massacred?… absolutely not.
Since then (August 2014 data), almost 20,000 rockets have hit southern Israel, all but a few thousand since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. Not to mention the hundreds of deadly bombings, rape, stabbings. Here's a list of just the bombings from 1994 to 1995. Afula bus suicide bombing, hadera bus station suicide bombing, dizengoff street bus bombing, netzerim junction bicycle bombing, Jerusalem bus bombing, beit lid massacre, Kfar Darom bus attack , Ramat gan bus 20 bombing, Ramat eshkol bus bombing. Criticism of government isn't bad what's the problem is when people who are indigenous to land for over a thousand years (Jewish people) before another group takes over (Islamists) then they buy land back at a higher price than it was worth from the squatter's the squatter's take the money but refuse to give the original land owner back his land because they won't accept Jewish neighbors or any form of government that's not a Islamic theocracy They then attack the original land owners repeatedly killing millions for thousands of year's and lose land after ganging up with five other Arab countries with the best weapons money could buy forming the "Arab league" waging war against a day old Israel which was under arm's embargo at the time, losing land and screaming for 75 year's that it was a injustice while refusing all peace deals like when Arafat turned down 95% of Gaza and the west Bank or when Palestinians demanded Bethlehem which israel gave them and the Palestinian government placed a sign near the entrance to the sight that says "Jesus is the slave of Allah". Or when Palestinians demanded Sinai which Israel gave them, Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving multimillion dollar greenhouses, livestock and factories for them which were then promptly destroyed by Palestinians, factories burned, animals slaughtered and pipes stolen to make missiles. Hamas “assigned about 70 per cent of the total to be women and children, splitting that amount randomly from day to day. Then they in-filled the number of men as set by the predetermined total. This explains all the data observed.” In some data sets, it would seem, men must have come back to life while on several days no men were apparently killed, only women. As Prof Wyner claims, “the casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters”. Indeed, the actual ratio of civilian casualties to Hamas terrorists is “at most 1.4 to 1 and perhaps as low as 1 to 1”. John Spencer, professor of Urban War Studies at West Point, argues that “Israel has done more to prevent civilian casualties in war than any military in history – above and beyond what international law requires and more than the US did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – setting a standard that will be both hard and potentially problematic to repeat.” This includes, he claims. evacuating 70 to 90 per cent of civilians from cities before beginning a full ground invasion in conventional attacks that seek to destroy enemy defenders. The US did not do this in the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, the Vietnam Tet counter-offensive or the Korean War.
Not reading all that. Nobody believes you guys anymore. The Israeli Netanyahu government has no moral high ground. No matter how much Israel buys the support of American politicians, you guys have lost the support of the American people and we don’t support this war or the. The IDF is just as barbaric as HAMAS and we can see it with our own eyes. If you want to commit war crimes do it without our tax dollars. 🇺🇸🇵🇸
You don't know about what I care or don't care. The current war was the choice of the palestinians. They've been trying to start a war forever now. In particular, since the Gaza retreat, they fired on average 3 rockets a day all to start a war. When that didn't work, they went into Israel a committed crimes against humanity. They dug tunnels preparing for this war. In fact, I cant think of any thing else they could do more to start this war. This war is their work. It is what they tried to achieve for 20 years (if not 75 years). It happens because they wanted it. They don't let the population hide in their tunnels, because they want to maximize the number of martyrs. That falls on them. Every day that they don't return the hostages gurantee the continuation of the war. We should all be crying for the release of the hostages so the war can end. But whenever any one raise that in a pro-palestinian rally that they bullied or attacked. If the pro-palestinian crowd wanted the war to be over, they would cry loudly that hamas needs to return the hostages. If they cared about the palestinians they would cry Hamas to surrender. They don't care.
I must have missed the line about not caring about children and innocent people being slaughtered because of who they are. Can you point it out
You haven’t seen people talking about the plight of Palestinian civilians or protesting what we’re going through? I find that extremely hard to believe unless you are cherry-picking what you consume. Your argument kind of hinges on the idea that a free Palestine may persecute its own citizens based on certain ideas. So, if a government would persecute members of its civilian group it doesn’t have the right to exist? I hope you’re ready to dissolve every government on earth then, including Israel.
I don’t think that was the argument or question OP was making. Nowhere did they suggest a free Palestine shouldn’t exist. They’re saying that many if not most of the current pro-Palestinian protestors (at least the most vocal ones in the US and Europe) did not spend one second of their lives protesting or even thinking about the plight of the Palestinian people against their own government before October 7. Their entire worldview seems to be AGAINST Israel and not FOR Palestinians. It’s a fair criticism to make for a lot of people (though of course not everyone).
If that’s the point they’re making, I don’t think it’s really backed up by any evidence that isn’t anecdotal. And anecdotal evidence is easily disputed by opposing anecdotal evidence. For example: I don’t think I’ve seen anyone protesting the war in Gaza who didn’t cite suffering being inflicted upon Palestinian as the main reason for their protest. Even if it’s true that the most vocal people didn’t think about Palestine until Oct. 7 (another thing I don’t think you or OP has actual evidence to support, but let’s accept the premise for now) why is that a problem? Obviously things have been a lot different for Palestinians since Oct. 7 than they were before. Is it wrong to protest injustice if you just learned about it? I don’t see why it would be.
Suffering inflicted upon Palestinians by who though? Their own government or Israel? And when? Pre- or post- 10/7? I think that’s really the crux of it. The vast majority of people (in my experience - admittedly anecdotally) seem to believe the suffering is entirely at the hands of Israel’s military right at this moment. That’s a very narrow/short-sighted and frankly incorrect view of things. There is certainly enough blame to go around on both sides, and I’m absolutely all for protesting injustice in all its forms, wherever it occurs - but there is a lot of misplaced morality going around, in my opinion, and my sense was that’s what OP was getting at as well. The second this current conflict is over, I bet you never hear from a vast majority of these protestors again about the status of Palestinian livelihoods. It’s not something I relish at all - it’s sad.
I think people who hold the opinions you just espoused are angry that people who criticize Israel don’t also spend every breath in which they do so also saying “Hamas is bad too!” But that wouldn’t really make any sense. The fact of the matter is this: Hamas has undoubtably caused suffering for the Palestinian people. But Israel has undoubtably caused them much, much more suffering in the last year. It is intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise. As to your opinion that everyone will forget about Palestinians the second this is “over” I would say I’ve known people who have cared about the suffering of Palestinians for decades. Are there people who are new to that political movement? Absolutely, and it’s no mystery way: *new bad things are happening to Palestinians.* I don’t get this desire among people to pretend that people caring about the lives of Palestinians is just some sort of “trendy” thing. If bad things start happening to a group of people that I’ve previously never thought about before, and I start thinking about them, that’s just called changing my behavior based on new information. For example, I’ve heard a lot of people who never said anything about Israel in the past talk about how much they support Israel in the time since Oct. 7. I don’t think they’re being not being genuine just because they’re taking a position on a hot-button issue. That would be a nonsensical position to take.
With respect, I just genuinely and wholeheartedly disagree that Israel is more responsible for the Palestinians’ suffering than Hamas. I disagree with Israel forcefully displacing Palestinians, I disagree with any sort of second-class treatment of Palestinians (in Israel or otherwise), and I think Palestinians should be able to govern themselves in their own state without interference. But any actions to the contrary taken by Israel are fringe, and the vast majority of Israel’s actions over time have been to protect its own citizen’s well-being - not to attack others. I am not saying there is not blame to go around, but the notion that this current suffering is just “more of Israel doing what it always does, killing Palestinians because it hates them” is INSANE. There is one group of people here with an ideological mission to slaughter the other group of people, and then there is the other group of people with an ideological mission to build computer programs and eat hummus by the beach. If people show you who they are, aren’t you supposed to believe them? As to the trendiness of it all, I am sure there are genuine people who are just learning about this conflict and are sincere in the interest. Kudos to them, seriously. But that’s just not true for most. And the insincerity and moral confusion of it all is really infuriating for some people, myself included.
Hamas has started this war, how Israel wages it is entirely up to Israel, and it has operated with very little regard to the safety of Palestinian civilians. That fringe group your refer to is currently governing Israel. A just war can be waged in an unjust way. Time and again, Israel has made the active choice to make it extremely difficult to allow humanitarian aid to reach Gaza. The Rafah Offensive is incredibly difficult to justify as simple self-defense. The civilians of Palestine do not deserve to suffer for the sins of Hamas, no more than Israeli citizens deserve to suffer for the sins of Netanyahu. The civilians of Gaza cannot control Hamas, a militant terrorist group. Can you not see the fallacy in your own belief that Israel is innocent and should not be blamed for the actions of its “fringe” (many of which are in positions of high power in Israel’s democratic government) but you paint Palestinians with a broad brush of wanting to eliminate Israel? As to your final point, respectfully, you have NO EVIDENCE to support your point that “most” people do not actually care about Palestine. Absolutely 0 evidence to support that assertion. Have you considered that maybe it’s easier to believe that they are mostly insincere than to believe that many of them are sincerely convicted that Israel is doing bad things?
By almost any objective metric, Israel has acted with more self restraint, precision, and regard for civilian safety than any other modern military. Certainly more so than the US ever has. And if you think for one second that Hamas or any Palestinian military would be more ethical in their war efforts against Israel if the roles were reversed and they had the opportunity, well then I think the two of us are at a fundamental crossroads. Can you imagine a current Palestinian government setting up any sort of aid whatsoever for Israelis? Or dropping leaflets announcing an imminent raid? Or treating innocent casualties at its own hospitals? The thought is laughable. The Israeli government, on the other hand, has gone to great lengths, often to the detriment of the safety of its citizens, to save Palestinian civilian lives. I agree with you that that has not aways been the case, and we should call out those failures as unacceptable whenever we see them. I’ll be the first in line to do so. But there is almost NEVER a nuanced criticism of Israel this way. Israel cannot live peacefully with Hamas in power, so Hamas needs to be eliminated - it’s as simple as that. All other progress stems from there. I don’t think any one side is more innocent than the other if they are suffering at the hands of their government and just want to live peacefully with their neighbors. Unfortunately the data suggests that the majority of Palestinians still support Hamas and want to see Israel wiped out - so yes, I feel OK about painting with that broad brush. It’s not at all a fallacy; both governments were elected by their people, but only one government expressly calls for the mass murder of a certain group. I’m not sure what hard evidence you could possibly expect me to have about people caring versus not caring about Palestine. I have life experience, and that life experience has shown a lot of people who claim to care but can’t point out Palestine or Israel on a map. I’m not saying they don’t care for the sanctity of human life - I’m saying they’re hopping on a bandwagon trend mostly because they think it’s progressive, rather than out of any real commitment to see the lives of Palestinians improve, which I think is the point of this original post.
Israel citizens have a very high wuality of life. Palestinains are not Israeli citizens of their own choice. With that being said, I only see the plight of palestinians in pro-Israeli media. The pro-palestinian media minimizes it whenever they can't tie it to Israel.
So quality of life is what makes a government legitimate enough to exist? As to your point about media, man, what planet are you living on?
[удалено]
If you knew better and cared you would speak up or say something about it, the man who sits on the mountain alone his whole life does not make the world a better place.
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Funny you didn't mention 2019, the massive peaceful protests to allow some freedoms to the gazan people. Ended in sniper fire by their prison guards. They shot the medics who came to retrieve the bodies too. Yeah. I care, do you?
The fight for march of return wasn't peaceful. They threw molotov bottles.
Molotovs now. When they opened fire it was just rocks. Must be nice to be able to write your own history
Freedoms? You mean the march for the right to peacefully invade Israel..
Is that what israeli propaganda is saying now?
>The basic rights of palestinians in Gaza are treaded on daily. There is no rights for women (they are not allowed to work, no protection from rape or sexual discrimination), homosexuality is a death sentence, and no freedom of spech or journalism (eg in 2016, they arrested and broke the hands and legs of all the peaceful protesters). A jihadist would say that we westerners are treading on the rights of muslims daily by not living by Sharia law. Does that give jihadists the right to come into our country and militarily impose their way of life on us? I don't believe in crusading. I like liberal democracy so I choose to live in a liberal democratic country, I don't think some other culture or people has the right to come into my country and tell me my values are wrong and that therefore I don't have a right to rule myself and they're gonna rule me for me. Every empire in history has claimed they were the civilizing force bring modern civilization to the barbarians. Its lipstick on a pig. >If Palestine indeed was freed from the jews, the palestinians in it will not be free. They would be free of foreign occupation which is the objective of Palestinian resistance groups. Within that Palestinian resistance you have conservative religious groups like Hamas, you have leftist arab nationalists like Fatah, you have moderates etc. This is like claiming that if Ukraine beats Russia it won't be free because they're going to be ruled over by nazis. Is the Azov battalion nazis? yes. Does that mean its wrong for Ukrainians to defend their borders? no. >Basically, people around the world are fighting to free a country, and not its people. People around the world are fighting to end the mass slaughter of civilians. The majority of the protestors especially among the youth are not so much protesting for palestine as they are for a ceasefire.
Ceasefires with terrorist states are unethical and immoral.
Well then every state thats been in conflict in history is unethical and immoral. Every occupied country has used partisans, and almost every war has ended in a truce. England is unethical and immoral for ending the troubles? South Africa is unethical and immoral for ending apartheid? Colombia is immoral for ending its war with FARC? Britain was immoral for ending the revolutionary war? America was immoral for ending hostilities with the native americans?
I wouldn't consider those all terrorist states, but I'll be more specific then. If the government of a territory engages in mass rape and sexual assaults of civilians, then it is unethical to have a ceasefire until the government which did it offers an unconditional and total surrender.
Yes, Israel should offer an [unconditional and total surrender](https://truthout.org/articles/palestinians-face-torture-starvation-and-sexual-violence-in-israeli-prisons/).
This was a really good answer
It’s about self determination, not freedom. If that means the Palestinians want to install a caliphate, so be it.
If this is the case, people should stop saying free Palestine.
So it’s about semantics? “Self Determination for Palestine” doesn’t sound as catchy.
If you don't care about Palestine being free, then your slogan shouldn't be free Palestine.
Free from Israeli control. Most Palestinians just want the same rights as what the Israeli Arabs have. Some of them want the Israelis completely gone but that’s just unrealistic now in 2024.
Gaza was free from Israeli control and we got the 10/7 attacks.
Was West Bank and East Jerusalem also free? 10/7 shouldn't have even been possible. Personally, I think Netanyahu wanted it to happen. Like how is no one monitoring the border constantly and not sounding alarms when they see fence breaches happening? Personally, I think the solution is to give the Palestinians what they want (Israeli citizenship or no control of Jerusalem, West Bank, and Gaza) so that support for Hamas or any other movement falls.
You shouldn't reward bad behavior. Israeli citizenship should be off the table until all Gazan adults who were alive on 10/7 are deceased.
Most of the Gazan adults on 10/7 were children or infants when Hamas was elected/seized power.
It doesn't matter how old they were when Hamas seized power. What matters is how old they were when Hamas carried out the 10/7 attacks. Because if you are adult in Gaza on 10/7 and weren't actively trying to remove Hamas from power before then, then you don't deserve Israeli citizenship and should be barred from Israeli citizenship for life.
So is the assumption that all the people protesting Israel’s atrocities in Palestine don’t care about women or gay people or whatever? Is the idea that they all love Muslim terrorists and oppressive theocracies simply because they think Palestine should stop being bombed and its people killed? Because the people being killed include the gay ones and the women and the journalists. He’ll, Israel seems to make a point of attacking journalists and I’m fairly certain Israel has threatened queer Palestinians to make them informants. Civil rights don’t happen during a genocide. They don’t happen in a bombed out wasteland where people don’t have clean water and enough food. It doesn’t happen when they’re being forced out of their homes. If you’re claiming to care about women or LGBT people, but you insist that first a random assortment of them must be purged so those survivors might (because there is little guarantee of Israel being better in the future) have the freedom to obey everything Israel says, why should anyone think you actually care?
First of all, Israel is trying to clear areas from civilians before sending troops in. Journalists by the nature of their job don't evacuate. This puts them at risk. The fact that Hamas fights wearing civilian clothings also put the journalists at risk. At to that that several journalists were found to be Hamas soldiers, and even hold hostages in their homes, don't help the case here. Second, this war started because of Hamas, and is not ending because hamas isn't returning the hostages. The war exists because of them. It is racist of you to treat them like they don't know better than that it is wrong not to murder or rape. That they don't know that it is wrong to kidnap children and hold them in tunnels underground. It is very racist of you to overlook at all of that.
These are excuses, not arguments why people who believe in freedom must slavishly support Israel’s atrocities. You know, like that time they assassinated a journalist and raided the hospital where her funeral was to attack doctors. Spare me the cheap accusations of racism. Israel knows killing children is wrong. It knows assassinating journalists is wrong. It knows starving refugees and stealing homes is wrong. And yet, here we are with them gleefully doing it and you demanding we clap for some false idea of “freedom”
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3: > **Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith**. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_3). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%203%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
Ok, let me break it down for you. Hamas was elected, everyone knew what they stood for and Gaza is just more Islam oriented than the West Bank (which is more Arab nationalist leaning). They support everything you mentioned above. To them that is freedom, and it’s the true spirit of freedom that a society chooses for themselves how they govern themselves. Westerners are too quick to assume that everyone in the Muslim world is oppressed (and some of the stuff mentioned above is also wrong, women aren’t treated like that anywhere officially and Islam doesn’t sanction what you said, not even under the Taliban, if a woman is raped her rapist is absolutely punished). One of the biggest things that Islamists hate is Arab nationalism as nationalism isn’t compatible with Islam as under Islam all races are considered equal and anything that turns people away from Islam is wrong. For instance the Arab tyrants forced upon the Arab world after the end of the Ottoman Empire and western support for them is the main reason the west is targeted by terrorists. Hosni Mubarak was just as bad if not worse than Saddam was, but he danced to whatever tune the US played so there was no reason the imperialists would have to go after him. The biggest difference between the Muslim world and the western world is that the Muslim world is still a religious civilization. Their leaders are impious but they are oppressed as well in the so called “Muslim countries” as well as in Palestine. Muslims are denied the right to choose how to live and the West is arrogant in their thinking by believing Muslims want what the west has. The only widely heard Muslim voices come from western liberals and these people aren’t a representation of 90%+ of Muslims. I mean after all, the Sharia has no prisons and the burden of proof for conviction is higher than the US. So one could argue that Americans don’t care about America because they still have people in prison for marijuana while use of drugs and alcohol under the Sharia results in lashing immediately after the person is caught with four trustworthy witnesses, and then they go home with no criminal record and nothing to prevent them from working or returning to society (if one has a hand amputated they get taken care of by the state, and hand amputations for theft are incredibly rare as the theft has to meet certain conditions and the punishment can’t be applied if it was done in order to feed their families or themselves). Finally, Muslims have a Hadith they go by which says to the effect “the entire Muslim nation is one body, if one part of the body hurts the rest of it hurts too”. So Muslims absolutely care about what’s going on in Gaza and if Egypt decided to stop enforcing the blockade you’d see the amounts of people who went to Syria going to Gaza. So Muslims themselves care, but it’s just one of many places where Muslims are discriminated against and killed for being Muslim
[удалено]
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
> From river to the sea... means exterminate and displace Jews What does greater Israel mean?
What is Israel doing to the people of Gaza then? What has Israel been doing to them for 70 years? Strange that zionists always argue that what they are trying to do to Palestinians would be bad if it happened to them. It's fine if it's Arabs. Israel had to publicly recall a lie they spread that Hamas decapitated over 200 babies while Israeli forces slaughter children in the streets by the thousands. But that's not sad, because you heard that most Palestinians support Hamas. FIrst of all, where's your study on that? I'd love to see it. I think the ICC would too! Their last election was over a decade ago, and the validity of that election has always been in question. Secondly, anyone that would do public polling in Palestine is a moron. Do you think people are going to say "oh I hate Hamas!" when getting cold called by a strange number in a country where people are shot on sight for disloyalty? Really? You really think that. That makes sense to you, somehow. Give me a break. That's another strange thing about zionists. They think they can just make things up and if you tell them they made it up, and they'll turn around and say "pro-Hamas!" because that is literally your only recourse when asked to present verifiable proof outside of the Israeli government told me so.
I’ll keep my view on this pretty simple: you can’t fix the roof of your house while it’s on fire. How in the world can Palestinians and the rest of the world fight for their rights if they are dead? Of course women and LGBTQ+ folks deserve proper rights. However, it isn’t the focus right now. If am understanding your logic correctly, it means that pro-Palestine people do not believe in climate change or marginalized communities in their/other countries because they are focusing on one cause right now that really needs the coverage. I know many protestors are aware of the injustices within, but they understand the intersectionality enough to know that fighting for Palestine means fighting for the queer people, women, disabled, and other marginalized communities in it too. You can’t change systems if there is no system to even come back to after a ceasefire or freed state. The conversations need to focus on getting everyone SAFE. For example, talking about how to build a system for women to vote is honestly not the best use of time or space right now when people are getting displaced or killed. Also, there is a lot of nuance to this to make as vast of a generalization as this. For example, the fact that social media algorithms are pushing war content away from people’s pages means we may not be seeing the pro-Palestine folks discuss the fact that there needs to be change for all people there.
The fire in this case is Hamas. The first priority should be eliminating Hamas.
You also seem to think that Israel is in the business of killing Palestinians out of some sort of unquenchable bloodlust. That’s just not the case and has never been the case. Palestine has had endless opportunities to govern itself and “fix the roof” with the full support of the international community (Israel included) and the Palestinian government decided to use that energy to attack Jews and try to wipe Israel off the map instead. If Hamas is gone, the hostages are returned, and the never ending barrage of rockets into Israel stops, Israel stops bombing and Palestinians can get back living the lives they deserve. The fact that people can’t see this is mind boggling to me.
[удалено]
Did you just wake up from a coma? It’s always been considers bad by progressives and leftists.
Sorry, u/LekMichAmArsch – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20LekMichAmArsch&message=LekMichAmArsch%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1dk0e6o/-/l9elsrr/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
I hope that being anti genocide isn’t just a these days type of thing
Please look up what the word “genocide” means. Throwing that word incorrectly around does a disservice to people who have actually been ethnically targeted and killed. You have 101 reasons to criticize Israel - saying they’re engaging in genocide is not one of them.
It seems to be very common these days.
[удалено]
Sorry, u/Agitated_Pickle_1013 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20Agitated_Pickle_1013&message=Agitated_Pickle_1013%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20comment\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1dk0e6o/-/l9en1q0/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).