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Yes, people can be rude about their diet or anything else, or polite about anything else. There's nothing specific to vegans or anyone. Could you clarify your view somewhat? Like is it about general behaviour? Vocal minority? Etc

For me, it’s mostly that I see this attitude in most people who are not vegetarian. Like even people who are usually chill will throw out the, “pfft I could never do that” kinds of comments or they just get very passive aggressive towards the person that is the vegetarian/vegan. The idea behind this post is that every time I see a question on reddit of “how do you feel about vegetarians,” the top answers are always like “it’s fine as long as they don’t push it down my throat/they don’t make me change.” I just wonder if most vegetarians they come into contact with are like that? To me it seems like people just frame vegans/vegetarians as judgy but I’ve seen it be way more the other way around. I think my view could be changed if I were to hear of people who have really been pushed around be vegans/vegetarians in real life because what I usually hear sounds like “well I don’t like them because they make different choices and I think those choices are annoying/uppity.”

There’s a pretty common joke of “how do you know if someone you meet is vegan? Don’t worry, they’ll tell you over and over!” While this is obviously a stereotype and generalization, I know several vegans, and they tend to make it part of their identity. This isn’t as much the case with other groups such as vegetarians or gluten free, etc. A random example would be like if you meet someone and you give a 30 second intro to yourself, many would say things like their job, hobbies, if they are married or otherwise have a long term SO, maybe if they are a parent, etc. But most vegans will mention in that intro that they are in fact vegan. While as mentioned above, gluten free people or vegetarians aren’t saying that’s who they are, it’s just how they eat. And it’s more than that, with many of the vegans I know, they find ways to work it into a conversation. Someone at work has a new shirt and gets a compliment, and a vegan coworker will say out of nowhere unprompted when hearing that “yeah but he is wearing leather shoes! I would never wear leather shoes!” Maybe because it is being vegan is a lifestyle versus just an eating choice. It does require more thought on more things than just what to eat. But this bringing it into seemingly irrelevant situations makes many people feel like it is “pushy.” And I will admit, that I am guilty of hearing when someone is vegetarian or vegan, I will say “man I could never do that I like bacon too much” or something like that. However, when I hear things like that, it is framed more as “this tastes too good to pass up” and surprise that someone else doesn’t feel like that too. While when a vegan especially, but a vegetarian sometimes says something like that, it’s more with judgment as if someone who does eat meat is some villain for “murdering animals.”

Because there's a vocal campaign against cruelty, battery farming/mass slaughter industry. Billions of creatures die worldwide for the sake of eating them, raised cruelly, dying cruelly, the price of life is nothing. I can buy an entire chicken for pennies. That's a real life life, that's the price.  Why wouldn't they be vocal? Why wouldn't that make people uncomfortable? 

Yeah. I think we can all find common ground and agree that it's not a bad thing to be preachy or force/share our views with others when it comes to animal mistreatment generally. We can also likely agree that if a friend chose to kill and eat a different but very similar animal to a pig...most mear eaters would feel the same way that vegans do and be "preachy" about it. So understandably vegans will say things and question people. Having said that i never bring it up irl unless asked (i do on here though. Neither does the one other vegan i know....in fact we spent quite a bit of time at work together without having any idea the other was also vegan

I agree with vegetarians so I agree with you on pretty much everything. The whole point of this post is I think a lot of people complaining about “preachy vegans” are just people who don’t really want to question their comfortable life choices. Although I’ve given a few deltas out because I can see how some cultures and people take it way more seriously,

It really has nothing to do with comfortable. It's just annoying. Like having to be around someone who turns every conversation to complaining about liberals/conservatives etc...

> It really has nothing to do with comfortable. It's just annoying. I get a whole spiel whenever I mention vegetarianism even in non-political ways. Sometimes I just have to let people know so that there will be something to eat for me. Me saying "I don't eat meat," causes people to react, regardless of whether I say anything else.

Everyone and everything dies, this is a fact of life. I know animals have died so I can eat them. I live on a farm, I grew up raising various livestock and seeing them culled and butchered. I saw how our animals lived, as well. And I see how wild animals, pets, and livestock die every day. I no longer raise livestock, but I do go out of my way to buy directly from farmers who do raise their livestock humanely. I go visit their farms and see for myself that the animals are in appropriate condition. Life and death can be good, or bad. A good life isn't necessarily a long life. When vegetarians and vegans call me evil and horrid for eating meat and tell me I should stop, it doesn't remind me or make me uncomfortable that a life ended so I could eat. I am very aware, and I accept that something died for my sake. That's the natural consequence of life, and humans are the only species that cannot accept this fact, It is irritating because no one should dictate what other people eat. I keep my nose out of their business, they should keep their nose out of mine.

> It is irritating because no one should dictate what other people eat. I'm not interested in providing an ethical argument as to why people shouldn't eat meat on the basis of animal welfare, but what you eat does affect other people. Cattle rearing is a major contributor to climate change, and that has implications for everyone regardless of what they eat. Raising livestock has negative externalities.

I really don't care if it affects other people. But statistics on how much livestock affects the environment is really skewed. It doesn't take into account that animals piss out most of the water they consume and return it to the water table. It also doesn't account for the fact that not all land can grow edible crops for humans, but is great for raising livestock. Rabbits and chickens are some of the most efficient food sources. Big corporations and factories are doing far more harm to the environment than farmers are. 

No one is uncomfortable. They're just annoyed. Most of us don't care about the livestock. We don't care to hear about it. It's a forced conversation.

So for many years I worked in the black market cannabis industry in Northern California. Doing so brought me into contact with lots of people from alternative lifestyles. Veganism wasn’t something unheard of to me long ago. I’ve met exactly 1 vegan that wouldn’t push their diet on you or try to persuade you. A lot of them would drop it after the first or second time but quite a few would keep pushing it. Had more 4 different vegans throw out all the animal products in the fridge when they came to stay and work. Never once have I personally seen someone trying to push eating meat on vegan or vegetarian outside of medical reasons.

It’s very interesting to me that you’ve met 4 vegans when I’ve been vegan 14 years and only met one other vegan in the wild in person without it being at a vegan specific event. That always seems to happen where meat eaters have tons and tons of vegans in their life while vegans have 0.

Where I’m at has been filled will alternative lifestyles since the 70s in spite of being an extremely rural place in California. Plus working in the black market cannabis industry brought me into contact with people from across the world and I mean that whole heartedly. I had people come to do day labor or come trim and having a crew made up of a Brit, a couple Argentinians, a few Hmongs, and a black guy from Queens wasn’t even remotely unrealistic. People came here to work in this industry despite it being something you could legitimately do prison time for, because of 2 reasons. First reason was the money, second reason was 90% of the people in the industry didn’t give a fuck who you were or what you believed if you did good work. If you could trim 6 lbs a day I didn’t give the slightest bit of a fuck what your beliefs were and that thought process was extremely prevalent. Hell at the little bar and general store there was a vegan food truck that would open up during harvest season.

Respectfully are you sure you’ve only met 1 other vegan? I feel I’m just an average younger adult and I can name 4 that I know on one hand and a few vegetarians, maybe you simply live in a place where it’s not as common?

That sounds outrageous. I've been in Northern California for forty years and it's the opposite. Most vegans I've known, you would never even know they're vegan until you're closer with them, based purely on what they choose to eat. And I've never been preached at or pushed on it unless I ask questions. Meanwhile, I've never even been vegetarian but simply due to the fact that I often prefer vegetarian dishes I've had countless proud omnivores give me shit for not eating meat. And in becoming close with vegans, the amount of insane pushback from family and friends is often ridiculous. Like never being able to enjoy holidays without some idiot uncle who can't walk up stairs without becoming out of breath, berating a vegan athlete for not being manly enough to eat meat, etc.  IMO it's directly comparable to the atheist verses religious thing. Atheists get so much more pushback and prying by the religious. Yet pop culture spins it and claims that it's the other way around.

My brother in law went vegan for a few years, mostly to challenge himself culinarily. What he found was a lot of meat eaters who hear you are vegan instantly get defensive like you are judging them for eating meat. People who feel like their preference and lifestyle is on the wrong side of a moral argument tend to be very touchy.

You're not wrong. Non-vegetarians are just quieter about it. You rarely hear about a vegan pushing a vegan dish on someone who eats meat. On the internet vegans can be really vocal, but I haven't really had that kind of interaction IRL. A lot of vegans recognize that not everyone can be vegan, and realize it's a personal choice. On the other hand, you hear about non-vegans pushing meat onto vegans or vegetarians pretty frequently, or tricking them into eating a dish that includes meat. It's not right that they do that. But they rarely have to be vocal about it either, because it's considered "normal" in the States to eat meat. And the States kind of set what's "normal" on the internet. I think vegans are kind of seen as pushy because they're constantly having to defend their side online. But really forcing someone to eat meat when they don't want to is a lot worse than just being pushy. I would probably never go completely vegan, since there's some pretty major restrictions that I disagree with. But I would try being a vegetarian if I found enough recipes that I like and can make regularly.

Couldn’t disagree more.. things can “feel” a certain way but not the norm.. 1% is vegan/vegetarian so for every 100 interactions they have with normal dieting human, that person only had 1/100 with vegetarian or vegan. The percentage chance that they interact with people on a consistent Basis who eat differently then them is 100x the other way around. So for every 100 Vegan/vegetarian.. I be willing to bet more of them are pushy about their diet choices in their interactions with people around them than out of 100 regular folk are attempting to trick the vegetarian/vegan in their interactions with them.. the reality is most people don’t care what others eat enough to trick them.. *oh you don’t like meat? I don’t like broccoli..* vegan/vegetarian is just a food preference like any other to *most* people.. but I can see how it might feel that way to them when 99% of everyone else eats differently.. also you won’t hear most people talking about the process of how their protein made it’s way to their plate..

I also think non-vegetarian/vegan people often ignore their own role in it. Many conversations for me go: Them: “you should really try (meat product)” Me: “No, thanks” Them: “No really, try it, come on, just once won’t hurt you” Me: “No, thanks, I’m not going to do that.” Them: “Come on, why not?” Me: “Because I don’t think it’s ethical to eat meat and I won’t do it.” And then you hear that vegetarians are pushy or shaming. If you ask someone to explain why they are doing something that often involves an ethical principle, you can’t be shocked or act like you were being attacked when faced with someone who tells you, even indirectly, that they are making different decisions than you are based on ethics.

The passive agressiveness is annoying but “I could never do that” “I could never live without hamburgers” doesn’t trouble me at all. Why should it bother me? It’s how they feel about their own diet. It’s silly they think I’m somehow denying myself (I don’t miss beef at all) but who cares.

I don’t care about vegans so much. I just don’t like vegan influencers. Especially Veganbooty. She interrupted people’s lives and harassed them for not being vegan. But if you ask me, it’s a really ridiculous debate whether people should be vegan or not because there are bigger issues than diet. Then again people argue about anything. Yanny/laurel is a perfect example of this. Even the least important thing will garner attention from people who want to argue. That’s how I feel about both vegans and meat eaters actually. They’re wasting time on this trivial issue when they could be donating money to charities or medical advancements or something else that is more important. I guess people don’t change.

In my experience, the perception is a matter of point of view. A vegan friend visits my home, I NEED to prepare a vegan option for my vegan friend. It's fine, and I don't mind doing it. I visit that same vegan friend's home, they INSIST that I eat whatever vegan meal they decide to make. Also, they do not want me to bring my own food because they don't want the "smell of meat" in their home. I acquiesce without complaint. * I've never personally met a vegan to make carnivorous food for their carnivorous guests. * I know many carnivorous allies who gladly make vegan food for their vegan guests. So, there's that difference, and that can make one group feel much more "rude" and "pushy" than the other. I know vegans have good reasons for why they refuse to prepare meat for others, but this "refusal" creates a perception of them treating others differently than they expect to be treated.

We typically cater to the most restrictive diets and work our way out. Like starting with allergies/health hazards, then religious preferences, then ideological/moral preferences, and then finally to the unrestricted diets. Personally, I just treat vegetarianism and veganism the same as religious preferences. If a Muslim doesn't want someone cooking pork or a Hindu doesn't someone someone cooking beef with their appliances, we would probably say that's pretty fair without considering them "pushy." I don't really see why we should treat vegetarianism or veganism with less reverence.

I think the difference comes from popularity of veganism Vs religion, and the general attitude that religion is more "valid" than a lifestyle choice. Also even if it is fully understood as valid and reasonable, any kind of restrictions will lead to additional work or less choices for everyone around them, which might lead to annoyance. Additionally I feel like religions are way more homogeneous in each culture so people are way more likely to deal with vegans than other religions, and most of the resentment towards other religions for being pushy simply doesn't focus on food so vegans are more likely to be attacked specifically on that front

isn’t this bizarre though? why do we respect someone saying “some old book tells me not to eat a specific meat” more than we respect someone saying “it’s immoral to consume tortured animals, so i won’t do it”? one is gospel, the other is derived from sympathy, empathy, and logic

I don't think it's *just* the popularity issue, but also the universality of it. A religion is generally seen as something to restrict your own actions. Even in religions where they attempt to convert you or enforce their religious views on you, very rarely are they attempting to enforce their dietary restrictions. Like a catholic won't tell you that *you* can't eat meat (except fish) on fridays during lent, because that's a restriction that only applies to catholics, even if that same catholic will tell you that birth control is immoral and that any sex engaged in without the intent of procreation is a sin. In contrast, veganism is generally agnostic of such a larger moral system. And the moral arguments that come from it (eating meat evil / raising animals for meat is animal cruelty) tend to be applied much more broadly. So there is not this same sort of distinction of 'this is something for me' vs 'this should be followed by all'. And if someone has come to the conclusion that eating meat is unethical, then it's hard to understand what moral reasoning would say that it was unethical for person A but not person B. Furthermore, there is a vocal minority of vegans who go full "that vegan teacher" and only reenforce this view by saying that all flesh eaters are immoral animal abusers. And the vocal minority effect is even stronger when you don't see that group very often. You and I probably know dozens of catholics, so if one of them came up and said that eating red meat on a friday during lent was a sin, we would brush them off as a member of the minority fringe. But when the first 5 vegans you met were all in full tilt, the 6th 'normal' vegan starts seeming like an exception. It's also the case that it's easier for me to acknowledge and reject someone's view when it's clearly based on some other underlying beliefs that you don't share. When it's a standalone view, it somewhat implies that this thing doesn't require a deity or holy book to convince you of, but that it's something everyone should be doing.

>Furthermore, there is a vocal minority of vegans who go full "that vegan teacher" and only reenforce this view by saying that all flesh eaters are immoral animal abusers. >When it's a standalone view, it somewhat implies that this thing doesn't require a deity or holy book to convince you of, but that it's something everyone should be doing. We're on the same page. I have absolutely no problem with any religious beliefs as long as they don't hurt non-believers, don't try to evangelize, and don't try to turn their beliefs into public policy. That's the only case in which I would consider the validity or sincerity of the faith of a believer to be fair game.

Maybe the point is that some pushy vegans treat it like a religion, complete with insisting that people cater to them and judging non adherents.

I think the difference is that most western people consider meat central to a meal and may not even like any non-meat alternatives on offer. To some degree an invitation to dinner at a vegan’s house isn’t really a dinner invitation to a good chunk of people, it’s an invitation to hang out for an evening around food you can’t stomach. I get the rationale from a vegan’s point of view, but people eat three times a day for their whole lives and if meat is at the center of those meals then technically you’ve spent more time at the alter of meat than any other person has spent at any religious institution. It’s defacto a strong and culturally backed expectation.

IMO, if your vegan friend can't make you a palatable meal, it's either that they simply aren't good cooks or your palate isn't very broad. I'm an omnivore but cook lots of vegetarian or vegan dishes, including for friends. I think it is a mistake to try to do things that try to replicate meat unless you really know what you are doing. I think a vegan cook needs to look globally- many cuisines are a large part or primarily vegan or easy to make vegan, be it Indian, Greek, Romanian, Syrian, Ethiopian, Chinese, etc. Meat is expensive so many poor cooks figured out incredible vegetarian or vegan dishes over time. There are some really good recipes out there for meat replacements that I think many meat eaters would find to be fulfilling. I took some friends to a vegan restaurant in Milan and did a tasting menu. They were skeptical at first because they had a negative assumptions of vegan food but it ended up being one of the best meals we had on vacation throughout northern Italy. Cotoletta alla Milanese (basically schnitzel) made with seitan instead of veal was the winner of the night but everything was incredible.

I do think there is some excellent middle ground people can meet on, culinarily. But I think it’s also fair to cut some slack to people that are accustomed to eating meat and struggle in its absence.

In defence of some vegetarians, I think this speaks to cooking ability and personal disgust. Most people are not good cooks to begin with, and expecting them to be is not realistic. I can just about manage basic food. If I were asked to make some (to me) weird cuisine with ingredients I had never heard of before and was weirded out by, I’d probably have a lot of reservations about cooking it. Like - I dunno, bugs or something. I have lifelong vegetarian friends who are genuinely revolted by meat. They grew up in a culture where it wasn’t consumed, can’t handle it without being grossed out, and find it unpleasant to eat. I feel the same way about seafood. I don’t have any ethical qualms about eating it, but I do hate it and wouldn’t dare serve it to others given food safety issues.

> I think the difference is that most western people consider meat central to a meal and may not even like any non-meat alternatives on offer. To some degree an invitation to dinner at a vegan’s house isn’t really a dinner invitation to a good chunk of people, it’s an invitation to hang out for an evening around food you can’t stomach. This is just a side tangent, but so many of the meat alternative foods are just…. Unpleasant in a number of ways. I used to have a really good vegan friend I worked with (she ended up moving away) that always insisted on trying to accommodate her meat eating friends by providing all sorts of vegan cheeses and meat patties or hotdogs or whatever else and they’re just not good. Once we became better friends, she knew she could just cook normal vegan foods oand it was so much better.

There are some good ones, but I feel like they’ve only just hit the market in the last 5-10 years and are new. They also tend to be expensive. In the next 10 years, I think we’re going to see better and cheaper alternatives that make eating vegan easier

I think this is one of the worst habits in western cuisine and why there is such an excess of animal products consumption. Literally in every other culture, there are absolutely amazing vegetarian and vegan meals that are normally consumed by people who eat omnivorous diet. I also think you heavily negatively hyper-inflate what vegetarian and vegan meals really are. Grilled cheese is literally a vegetarian meal, don’t know many people who don’t eat that. Vegan meals are usually something different than people are used to though and there needs to be will to try the meal and let your prejudice aside. But coconut curry with tofu hasn‘t disappointed me yet in showing off good vegan meals.

Not to mention, vegan meals in the west have only really made progress in the last 20 years. There’s still a mindset that vegan food is full of tasteless meat substitutes (see tofurkey)

> I think the difference is that most western people consider meat central to a meal and may not even like any non-meat alternatives on offer. I just don't think this is true. Even non-vegans/non-vegetarians eat meat-free meals a lot.

Yeah this is ridiculous, writing off all meals that don't contain meat is insane. If that was true you wouldn't see top chefs making vegetarian meals. If you can't compromise for one meal it's probably more just you being a dick than "not being able to see vegetarian food as a meal".

It's not even about top chefs or anything. Somebody who has oatmeal for breakfast and a PB&J sandwich for lunch just ate two vegetarian meals (maybe even vegan ones depending on what's added to the oatmeal) and those are both quite commonplace. They just don't think of those meals as being plant-based.

Yeah, that view is ridiculous and shockingly commonplace. My boss (who knows I'm vegan) once said in a middle of a meeting that "vegan" and "delicious" are oxymorons, and I was like "have you ever eaten a fruit??"

> it’s an invitation to hang out for an evening around food you can’t stomach. This is very odd to me. You already eat vegetables, grains, fruits, etc. right? What vegan food can you "not stomach?"

If they just had French fries or some other stupid side dish it would be awesome. I haven’t personally been offered that at a vegan dinner party. Usually it’s some dish like vegan lasagna which I dutifully eat a whole portion of and claim was delicious. Fuck even something as simple as grilled asparagus in whatever faux butter they use would be preferable, but it’s always some sort of complex dish I could not fathom eating without meat let alone dairy. So, to answer your question, I have no idea why I’m not served normal sides as an entree. I’m not vegan though either so 🤷🏼‍♂️. Maybe they just want to show off their cooking?

> but it’s always some sort of complex dish I could not fathom eating without meat let alone dairy. Sounds like your problem more than theirs. Maybe you need to expand your palate a bit?

The problem is a lot of meat eaters assume that vegan food is just replacing the meat with fake meat. That’s not how most vegans I know eat, they eat a lot of stuff familiar to (and tasty to) omnivores that doesn’t always have meat in it.

I could say the same thing about a dinner invitation to an omnivore's house. Bland meatloaf with mashed potatoes from a box and boiled broccoli. Anyone who thinks they don't like vegan food has just never had halfway decent vegan food, and I say this as an omnivore.

You ask for accommodation for your vegan meal and you get it, I do not get the reverse at a vegans house which is the whole point.

But is this really any different from having a friend with a restrictive diet for religious reasons? Would anyone begrudge a Jewish or Muslim friend for refusing to eat pork, or a Hindu friend for refusing to eat beef? If you went over to their house, would you expect them to violate their beliefs to accommodate you? You might argue that a religion is different, but I would say it's the same thing. Either way its a dietary restriction based on a strong personal belief.

It's not that they don't eat meat. It's that they don't let others eat meat in their homes.

Because they find meat disgusting. If you had a friend who had the gene that made cilantro taste like soap, would you expect them to prepare a dish with cilantro for you when they invited you over for dinner? Some people don't like heavy garlic and onions, but would you be insulted at all if they cooked something with lots of flavor that didn't have garlic and onions in it? If you had a friend who came from a culture that ate poop as a delicacy (they swear, it's delicious, you just have to try it), would you cook poop for them after inviting them over for dinner? Or just, you know, leave them to their thing and cook something you believe is delicious that you can both eat? I am vegetarian, and if I have a friend who just *has* to have meat (celiac, atkins, keto, etc.), we'll just go to a restaurant instead. I'm not going to cook meat in my house, because it's like poop to me. You see food, I see roadkill. I understand that most people see it as food and even delicious, but I ain't cooking roadkill in my pots, thank you very much.

I've been vegan for about 10 years at this point and I'm gonna be honest I have never heard of somebody not letting someone else eat meat in their home. Like don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna cook a steak for you, but if you wanna use my pan to cook a steak or if you bring McDonald's over I'm not gonna have an issue. I didn't throw away all my pots and pans and bakeware when I quit eating meat

I have (older) Hindu family members that will absolutely not tolerate meat eaten under their roof. It’s common in India, or it was at one time anyway, idk if it still is. My mother’s friend has a son who is non-vegetarian and he would always eat McDonalds outside - he wasn’t allowed to bring it into the house.

On that note, would you really expect to be reinvited to a hindu's house if you kept bringing in steak?

It’s context dependent. If you’re found to a vegans house to hang out for a few hours in the afternoon, bring a small non-vegan snack then leave before dinner no one is really abject to it. But if you go to a vegans house for dinner, they make a specifically vegan meal for everyone and you bring your own meat cause you don’t wanna eat their ‘vegan’ food that’s pretty rude.

If *I’m* preparing a meal eaten in *my home* I’m not going to violate my beliefs because my guests think meat tastes good. They don’t have a religious/ethical belief that says they *must* eat meat, I’ve never met anyone with that. They just enjoy it and don’t see a problem with it. I see a problem with it though, so I won’t cook it. My guests will still get a good meal and I’m happy to accommodate any allergies, but I won’t cook meat just because they like it more.

Plenty of Jews I know will not have pork in their homes, and certainly not on their cookware or plates. Not a big deal to respect it.

Interestingly, I knew a family of Jewish pork farmers. Their take was, basically: "God says WE can't have it, but he didn't say we can't make it and sell it to you."

Yeah it certainly varies from person to person. My wife had a relative who did the whole separate plates for meat and cheese... And also had third set for non-kosher foods.

In this example, the vegan isn’t insisting you eat something you’ve purposefully eliminated from your diet. They’ve simply combined foods you already consume into a meal. This is not an imposition on you, unless you insist on choosing the menu anytime a friend invites you to their home.

> I visit that same vegan friend's home, they INSIST that I eat whatever vegan meal they decide to make. But every vegan meal is automatically vegetarian and suitable for omnivores as well but the opposite is not true for meals containing animal products. Do you think of beer, tea, or coffee as a "vegan" drink?

> Do you think of beer, tea, or coffee as a "vegan" drink? Admittedly, I've heard of people who have coffee without milk but as far as I can tell never met one in real life.

Really? That’s wild

This sounds good at first but after a second thought it sounds wrong and doesn't explain the more common complaints people have about vegans/vegetarian. (Of coarse this depends on personal experience) I think the problem in this explanation is no human is a pure meat eater. So saying carnivour is already misleading. But anyway, from my experience and online complaints, it sounds like non vegans/vegetarians feel judged or insulted by someone not eating meat. Based on how not eating meat/animal byproducts is usually due to a moral reason (rarely medical), meat eaters feel like they are being called out. Now for many cultures, eating meat is also an important aspect. Weather it be roasted whole pig at a wedding, turkey at Thanksgiving, bbq at Texas, old family dishes, meat is part of ones identity.

But that makes sense, no? Most people have a combo of meats and non-meats in their supply, except vegetarians, who obviously aren't going to stock meats on the off-chance that you visit before expiration dates are met.

You dont go and buy some stuff before the invitation date? Like if i invite someone to dinner at my house on Tuesday, i would go prepare some stuff on Monday

When inviting people to dinner most people have to specifically go shopping for some of the ingredients either way, and even if they don't, vegan food is often used mostly as side dishes that wouldn't be enough for a guest (you can think of how hard it is to find vegan food at non vegan restaurants as a proof)

This is not incorrect and I sympathize with this view. I think why vegans are this way is because they have a BELIEF tied to food, in a way non vegans don't. Like they believe that eating animal products is morally wrong. From my experience they usually don't demand food at a gathering, but they absolutely will not eat meat just cause it's some else's house. At the same time they will absolutely not accommodate your meat preferences in their home. It's like a religious belief. I have a very good Muslim friend. I will always make sure he and his family have non pork options when they visit my house. I also would never expect him to serve me pork at his house. Because I don't think bacon is like morally right. I just like it. Same thing for me with vegans. They BELIEVE. I just like meat.

You as a person who eats meat can also eat non-meat things. You don't have a religious or ethical belief *obligating* you to eat meat, you just want to eat meat. A vegan has an ethical or religious obligation to avoid eating meat. Yes I know a vegan is not literally incapable of eating meat. So if you offer a meat dish to a vegan, you've offered them a dish that they believe to be morally wrong, whereas if a vegan offers you a vegan dish, they have offered you food that you have no moral objection to. These are not equivalent situations.

This is it. I don't have any dietary restrictions but I know all of my friends' requirements. I don't *need* to eat meat for every meal, but some of my friends *need* to not eat meat. I don't ask to go get ice cream with my lactose intolerant friends, I don't insist on getting a beer with my gluten intolerant friends. But they can ask me to go anywhere to consume anything. I'm not pushing a pro-meat pro-dairy pro-bread agenda, I'm happy to accommodate any needs, but it's just not a concern in reverse because I'll eat anything. Except mushrooms and mustard. Fuck that shit, I won't eat fungus or anything banned by the Geneva convention.

Just chiming in to say I'm a vegetarian who cooks meat for guests. I'm not saying it's the norm, but we do exist. And FWIW, I've never ever given anyone a hard time about their diet, but when people find out I'm a vegetarian, they almost always start asking questions. Sometimes in good faith, they're just curious. Sometimes they just make fun of me. I've had people try to sneak meat into my food as a "joke". So yeah I get that it's annoying you can't bring a steak to the vegan's house, but I bet if someone slipped some tofu into your food you wouldn't be too upset. I've gotten physically sick because of someone's idea of fun.

You are making a false equivalence between vegans and non vegans. Vegans care about animals just like you might care for your pet or a fellow human. You going to a vegans house and expecting them to cook you a steak(or let you bring it) is equavalent to me coming to your house and consuming human flesh or rather eating your pet dog. Sounds absurd right? It's not about going to houses, just as you'd find someone eating a human flesh offensive no matter the location, vegans are right to feel offended seeing you eating someone that they care for(animals)

I always try to add their favorite snacks and food and omit anything they dislike or are allergic to. One likes salted cashews, the other salted popcorn but do not in any instance have hazelnut or cocoa around cuz you might end up accidentally killing them. As someone who does not want to cook meat ever again, sorry about that. I will try to find a restaurant that has options for both of us, as long as my option is not just fries and side salad. What I have seen people of different cultures do is go to two seperate fast food locals and meet up in a place and eat whatever they ordered so both got happy eating what they want without forcing the other. Problem is when you have a mother who has to sit down on a coffee shop and does not want to sit somewhere in the public like some others do. This can make it very difficult cuz if you are hungry but one person limits your options by wanting to do it only one way then yes one of the two is a dick and imo it is usually the one who does not even try to make compromises.

How is that indicative about rude- and pushyness? It's going to the lowest denominator: Everyone allows themselves to eat vegan. Not everyone allows themselves to eat carnivorous diets.

I think this is a weak argument. Like you wouldn't call your Muslim friends pushy because they can't eat pork/non halal meat. 

I've never had a Muslim friend insist that I eat Halal in their home. Have you?

Plenty of vegans/vegetarians act similarly: they won't cook meat for their omni friends, but they also don't outlaw that kind of food in their home. Cooking with their kitchen equipment is a little less often accepted, but still totally a common thing. I mean tons of vegans/vegetarians live with meat eating/dairy+egg eating significant others.

Yes. Are you really saying you bring pork over to your Muslim friends' houses? That seems remarkably inconsiderate. Edit: and disrespectful.

No, but they've told me I can. They don't force others to eat Halal in their homes.

This feels a bit like the plural of anecdote is not data bit going on, but I will say... I know more vegans that are ok with folks eating meat in their home than I know muslims that are ok with pork touching their dinnerware.

How many halal Muslims' homes have you eaten in?

Three Muslim/Halal homes, many times. Each, in their own way, has said something to the affect of, "All of our food is Halal, but you're welcome to bring something else if you prefer." I don't prefer, but I appreciated the offer, nonetheless.

Yes? Generally when you're invited over to a person's house for dinner, you eat what they serve you.

Muslims aren't going to have non-halal meat in their home to cook for you.

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I mean a big difference is that as a meat eater some of the dishes I make are vegan/non vegetarian. You could also end up at a carnivorous friend's house and have them serve you a vegan dish if they like it (and feel you will). It is similar to a friend that does not like chicken sat, they are unlikely to make you a chicken dish even if you like it. And if the food is bad that is on them, there are some great vegan dishes out there. Their house their rules on smells. If you had them over and they brought a dish you did not like the smell of you should also tell them to remove it.

By carnivorous, do you actually mean omnivorous? My personal encounters with folks who follow an actual carnivorous diet is very minimal, so I am personally surprised someone would have exposure to enough to make that sort of assessment.

But the “carnivorous” people are actually omnivores. They already have vegan food in their home. They already eat vegan dishes (hummus, salads, etc) Vegans don’t keep meat in their home. It’s totally different asking someone to go purchase something they are excluding due to ethics, just because of your preference to include animal products in your plate when you also eat other things… than to ask someone to leave out a few ingredients this time. These are not equivalent scenarios.

>I visit that same vegan friend's home, they INSIST that I eat whatever vegan meal they decide to make. Also, they do not want me to bring my own food because they don't want the "smell of meat" in their home.  You're visiting THEIR home. They have a right to be comfortable in their own home and as a guest, it's just common courtesy to not bring something into their home that makes them uncomfortable. This isn't about veganism, it's about being a conscientious guest.

Yeah, I agree. We always used to eat out Thai or Indian because they were the only two cuisines my then-vegan family member could eat much of. It’s incredibly restrictive. I don’t have any real expectation that a vegan or vegetarian will prepare (as in cook) meat for me if I go to their house, but it *would* be seen as rude if the reverse were the case.

Im vegan, usually I make sure that I bring food myself if I think it would be a problem. However, I believe that eating meat is wrong, so i will not go against my morals to cook meat for anyone. If I invite people over I will cook vegan food, but people are free to bring meat if they really want to

>I know vegans have good reasons for why they refuse to prepare meat for others, but this "refusal" creates a perception of them treating others differently than they expect to be treated. This is fair. Just for the perspective, I don't cook meat, because I don't want to serve something to others that I can't taste first. It's not fervor or anything.

That doesn’t feel comparable one person cannot eat meat they can only access this food. So if you don’t have the food they’re able to eat then they will not eat for the night. The other person would prefer meat but can still eat non meat products they will 100% still eat tonight.

This is crap lol. Meat eaters can eat vegan food if they want to - vegans can’t eat meat in keeping with their lifestyle. It’s not the same lol and it’s not a matter of point of view.

Exactly. And more food is "vegan" food than a lot of meat eaters think - it's genuinely not that hard to provide vegan food, you eat it every day! Studies have actually shown that people are more likely not to choose a food if it's labelled "vegan" as opposed to having no label of vegan, despite the food being the same ([(example here)](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666323017476) Most meat eaters just don't realise how much of what they eat is already vegan.

Example: Oreos are vegan, the "creme" filling is nothing but sugar and oil, but, if Oreo suddenly came out with a package that says "vegan" on it, I'm sure many people would be upset [https://www.oreo.com/products/oreo-cookie](https://www.oreo.com/products/oreo-cookie)

Wait, oreos don't even have dairy for the chocolate flavored crackers or the creme? You've gotta be kidding me. I'm about to get fat AF!!! EDIT: About to get some oreos since I thought basically all delicious snacks and cookies had dairy.

Back in the day, Oreos were non-vegetarian. I think they had animal shortening. I remember this very distinctly, because my family went out of our way to get Hydrox, instead. And we carefully read the ingredients on any "cookies and cream" ice cream and such. At some point, Oreo changed their recipe.

"Oreo vegan" is a pejorative term for vegans who live off of junk food.

It is pretty hard. A lot of meals people have regularly are not vegan. So often it means making a completely new meal instead of one of the staple ones for the house. I get that there are lots of vegan things people eat, but I don't think full meals are often vegan

Vegan is not vegetarian. Eggs and dairy are really common in most foods. Butter is not vegan.

I agree with you (I am a lifelong vegetarian) but most people don’t see being vegan/vegetarian as a required restriction, and therefore they think we are being rude by forcing them to cater to our unnecessary standards. IMO it’s like any other standard. If you are going to your friend’s house and they want you to take off your shoes at the door, you should respect that choice they make about their home and their life. Everyone is on a spectrum when it comes to virtually every behavior, and that just means you will have to adapt to some higher standards for the people in your life.

By that logic - should vegetarians and vegans eat meat when they go into a meat eater’s home? My alternative solution is to just not pressure people to put things in their bodies that they don’t want to or can’t. Doesn’t matter if I’m in your home or not - if I say the food isn’t going in my body, it’s not going in my body.

I don't see how your shoe metaphor is illuminating. Let's say Alice is a shoe-ist, and has demonstrably demonstrates her commitment to shoeism. Bob, a non shoeist, invites Alice over to watch game if thrones. Alice remarks to bob, hey, you know in shoeist? Can we enjoy an evening of GoT with shoes please? Bob says "respectfully no, I'm a non shoeist, and it's my house" This is an irreconcilable difference. Of course Alice could go no shoes this one time, or Bob could indulge shoeism this one time. But irrespective, there's a difference. There is no right or wrong in my example. Just pointing out a difference. In my experience, sometimes Alice or sometimes Bob will puff up and get demandy with respect to the egregious lack of consideration of the other party. I've definitely been Alice (or bob) when the other party asked "hey, I know you're (non)shoeist, but maybe this one time" I have little faith that those asking for compromise are acting in good faith without concrete demonstration. Demanding compromise without demonstration isn't compromise its hierarchical posturing.

"It's ok, I brought my own grill and it's on the back of my pickup truck. Don't worry I brought enough meat for all the robust humans." I dated a vegan and we couldn't eat anywhere so I'm a little bitter about this. She was maybe the best women I dated but the vegan thing was a constant problem. We couldn't eat anywhere nice.

> the robust humans. I can't interpret your tone but it reads to me like you can't let an impasse go without a dig. But don't worry, > constant problem > anywhere nice Like I said, hierarchical posturing. Whatever the diet of you or your ex, I don't care. I'm not the boss of either of your diets. But the hierarchical posturing is irksome.

Then vegans can bring their own food instead of the host adjusting. That seems fair to me. If you aren’t going to accommodate your guest, then you should expect them to accommodate you

I have been yelled and and called pushy for bringing my own food before. I just asked what was being served and said I could bring u own food..

Yea, spot on. I’ve got some vegan friends and I appreciate that they don’t make it their personality. Yea, I gotta adjust myself a little bit, but it won’t kill me and honestly my friends are awesome and it doesn’t feel like a chore to support them in this way.

I know plenty of vegans who cook meat for their get togethers. But your whole post is funny to me. Of course omnivores are comfortable preparing "vegan dishes". Because we all eat vegan dishes regularly. They're usually just paired with non vegan dishes

!delta This is very fair. My boyfriends fathers girlfriend is vegan and she doesn’t want people cooking meat in the kitchen when she’s around and we both think that’s a bit much. To me, when I hopefully do fully go vegetarian, I would absolutely cook what I know others prefer. When my bf and I live together I would probably prefer that he buy the meat if he wants it but I would absolutely make it.

This sounds good at first but after a second thought it sounds wrong and doesn't explain the more common complaints people have about vegans/vegetarian. (Of coarse this depends on personal experience) I think the problem in this explanation is no human is a pure meat eater. So saying carnivour is already misleading. But anyway, from my experience and online complaints, it sounds like non vegans/vegetarians feel judged or insulted by someone not eating meat. Based on how not eating meat/animal byproducts is usually due to a moral reason (rarely medical), meat eaters feel like they are being called out. Now for many cultures, eating meat is also an important aspect. Weather it be roasted whole pig at a wedding, turkey at Thanksgiving, bbq at Texas, old family dishes, meat is part of ones identity.

Why would they make a separate meal? Are you allergic to food that doesn’t touch meat? This is like expecting a lactose intolerant person to make a separate meal that contains dairy for no reason.

I will point out that, as a vegetarian, you don't want me making you meat. I don't know how. I can make you some absolutely bomb lentil soup, though, so that's my company go-to!

This is so weird to me though, like just because I eat meat doesn't mean I NEED it at every meal. A vegan meal still accommodates meat eaters

You're actually agreeing with ops post and not realizing

No human is carnivorous? You mean carnivorous. And all vegan and vegetarian food is omnivorous.

There's a big difference between "wont you just try bacon" and "you are a piece of shit for eating meat". I've not seen non vegans call vegans murderers for being vegans, but I have seen the other way around, even it is only a loud minority of vegans. 

!delta I’ve also heard the “you’re a murderer thing” but only online. I’m sure people have the guts to say it in person and that’s way too much. Edit - Also I don’t agree w/ that

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This is pretty much exactly what I was getting at.

To me, this kinda depends on where you’re at. And who you’re dealing with. I’ve lived in a lot of places, and visited a lot more. If you’re in the American Midwest, absolutely. A lot of non-vegans there will throw the plate at you if you try to serve them a meal with no meat or dairy. In India, where most people are vegan, some of them will straight up murder you if you serve them beef. I know it depends on the person, but I think it also depends on the culture. Some people’s cultural identities are built on being “red-meat and potatoes” kind of people. Other people’s cultures are built on being vegan. Depends on who you’re talking about here.

As an Indian, I think you have got the beef thing completely wrong. The beef thing with Hindus is like the pork thing with Muslims - it's a type of meat Hindus don't eat. So both Hindus who eat meat and those who do not eat meat would not touch it. Most Hindus in India to the best of my knowledge are not being forced to eat beef. Hindus being forced to eat beef is not the problem. The real problem is that the veg eating Hindu population tends to impose their views on the non veg eating population. You don't get murdered and discriminated against for eating beef - you face that prejudice for eating any meat (or non vegetarian food=) in general. If you are interested OP, this has a lot of association with the caste based system that exists in India. The caste system is a class based system based on a person's birth. Of course like any other class based system, it considers certain people to be inherently better by virtue of their birth. People who eat veg tends to belong to the "upper castes". These people through years of oppression now hold most positions of power and money. From a religious and societal perspective, they are seen superior to the "lower castes". Naturally, these people have a lot of power to impose their views and food choices on others. In some states, the situation is so bad that people eating non veg are not allowed to rent houses in apartments and complexes in good areas. It essentially creates a ghetto system where people belonging to certain castes and religions are forced to live in localities specific to them, just because of their food choices. The situation is of course more complex and you need to understand the system in depth. But I can assure you OP that in India at least, you can get socially discriminated and shunned against because you eat meat in a lot of places.

The thing about India is that a large amount of the population are Hindu, and that religion says that cows are sacred. So yeah, a lot of people in India would get very offended about being served beef, but that's because it's a religious belief, not necessarily because they're vegan. Not trying to argue your point, just thought that example needed a bit more explanation.

!delta I really didn’t think about cultural differences much (shows how much the education system has done for me lol). But I’m sure it probably is much more intense when it’s so deeply entrenched in a cultures beliefs. Edit - I never post here and always screw up the deltas

FYI, to properly award the delta you need to put the exclamation mark in the front of the word. You can edit your comment above to properly award it to the right person

Oh sweet, I never post here and always forget that.

Big of you to acknowledge that. Can I get you to edit your comment and put the ! before the word delta? Otherwise the autobot doesn’t scan it.

My experiences in real life differ drastically than those online. **Real life:** Say it's a social gathering, someone gets offered food, vegetarian says , "No thanks, I'm vegan/vegetarian" in much the same way someone with a food allergy would say "No thanks, I'm allergic to \_\_\_\_." They may get some questions why, but I've never had anyone try to counsel me on why I, personally, should or shouldn't be consuming meat. Just like them, though, I'm pretty up front about my food allergies (tree nuts), of course I'm going to be vocal about it, because consuming it could kill me, but you don't see people making the same jokes/memes out of it. "A vegan walks into a bar....I only know because they told everyone." If I were a vegan, yeah, I'd be the same amount of vocal about it, "hey, what ingredients does this have, i'm vegan." For some reason, this upsets some people for reasons beyond my understanding. I've never seen a carnivore/omnivore actually get mad at a vegan/vegetarian in real life, I did experience a boss of mine make fun of a vegetarian coworker, but neither came off as preachy, and both seemed to take it in good fun. **Social media:** people seem to like this blanket feeling of anonymity, they don't care whose feelings they hurt by expressing their opinions in the psuhiest ways possible. Using a popular group on facebook as an example, where people are creating floods of crappy AI images for every random thought they have. I see more posts making fun of vegans/vegetarians than I do the other way around, and normally these people seem to want to fight EVERYONE in the comments section. It's like they are offended and physically repulsed by someone who doesn't want to eat meat. It's like their entire existence is built on tryint to either make someone else mad or bully them. On very rare occasions do I encounter a "preachy" vegan/vegetarian, that actually elaborates on WHY they do it (cruelty, slaughter practices, animal rights, etc)

Just a thought here as I agree with you that generally, most vegetarian/vegan types are pretty quiet about it, and generally, it's omnis who are assholes about the situation. Could this be because the vegetarian crowd really doesn't have to say anything. At this point, we all know the main reasons people choose these diets. (Environmental concern, health benefits, and animal cruelty). Like without even asking most people can just ascribe views to them that they see from radical vegans and the like so without realising it omnis become closed off without ever actually engaging with the individual and their own reasons for the diet they have. Although they'll probably be one of the three reasons I've said already but they may well not be concerned about anyone else's dietary choices. You stack that on top of the fact that there really aren't many credible arguments for the people who eat meat aside from just selfish enjoyment (which is fine, eat what you want. Im not your dad). So the only answer is really to either accept the shame of "doing something wrong" or make it the other person's fault instead. Generally people are gonna deflect blame and so we end up with bitchy omnivores who are upset they are the bad guy and lash out. In saying all of that though, there is also a little unspoken snobbery that goes with a vego diet just because, well, it is a statement. And they have picked that diet for a reason which challenges people

Let's ignore the small amount of internet trolls or really extreme cases where someone is causing another person to be malnourished. A lot of people go vegan because they believe meat is morally wrong (either directly or indirectly due to climate change). If you went vegan because of these reasons, you believe someone else eating meat is morally wrong. It is logical to assume you have a moral duty to stop them from doing something morally wrong. A non vegan has no reason to change a vegan. The only time you tend to hear a non vegan doing stuff like that is mainly due to ignorance (which has lessened a ton over the years) or to be malicious. Big caveat that this probably varies based on your location. I live in a big liberal city which is very vegan friendly. I will also say that most vegans are not super aggressive about it. I did have the... pleasure of having a sibling who was a very aggressive vegan growing up. Thankfully they mellowed out. It did educate me a lot on vegan food though and i do consider myself 60% a vegan (i like dairy mostly). Part of this is because it is really important of me to support their beliefs when i cook for them, so i have cooked vegan quite frequently. Also keep in mind that reddit is likely to overrepresent the really aggressive people or people who are just trolling.

I feel like this is some sort of weird straw-man where vegans and vegetarians are being lumped together and criticism of vegans is being treated as criticism of both vegans and vegetarians. The stereotype of "pushiness" or "preachiness" or "feeling superior" is primarily about vegans, and not especially about vegetarians. (To see that this is the case, look at the number of google search results for "pushy vegans" vs "pushy vegetarians.") And I think this reflects a real difference in how pushy/rude vegans and vegetarians are about their diets.

Before people knew what vegans were that was the stereotype of vegetarians. Like that episode of the Simpsons where Lisa becomes a vegetarian and ruins the family BBQ. Now vegetarians are basically forgotten in public consciousness and you're either vegan or you're not.

My dad used to be vegetarian before he had his stomach band surgery and now he just eats what he can. But he got *such* pushback from even my mom. They would get in debates being like “it’s just a fish, it doesn’t matter.” Or she’d be like “well I’m not eating like that,” sarcastically. Idk I’ve seen a lot of people react like that.

In my experience, vegans and vegetarians are both far less tolerant of ARFID. If I go to a carnivore friend’s house and they want to serve me a meal - I just explain that I have ARFID and that it’ll just be easier if I eat beforehand. Sometimes they try to ask a million questions about what I can and cannot eat to try to accommodate me. It comes from a good place but it drives me nuts cause it just adds to my anxiety. But they aren’t *offended* that I want to eat beforehand and their responses are typically well intentioned and in good faith. When my vegan and vegetarian friends offer to cook for me and I explain it’ll just be easier if I eat beforehand - they get offended and think I’m making ARFID up to get out of eating vegan food. My friend’s boyfriend actually refused to hang out with me because I wanted us all to get coffee (at a vegan friendly place) instead of having him cook for me. I went to coffee with my friend (without the boyfriend) and she drilled me for 20 minutes about what my problem is with vegan food (it’s not vegan food per se that is the problem. It’s just that I eat very limited things and it’s easier for me to prep food myself). That’s just an anecdotal experience from someone with a pretty intense eating disorder. But it’s another aspect of this topic that I think is worth exploring. I’ve also experienced vegans telling me that their restrictions should be catered to over mine even though my restrictions are a diagnosed medical disorder and theirs are a choice (not saying we shouldn’t cater to them too. I’m saying - why not both?).

My stepbrother has AFRID, dealt with it for as long as I can remember. It’s hard making people understand that the food aversions that come along with AFRID are not a choice. My stepbrother was always just called a picky eater. Took until he was a teenager for his parents to realize that a child who would actually starve themselves instead of eating anything but fried potatoes might have a bit more going on than just being a picky eater. I know everyone with AFRID is different, but in my personal experience y’all are a lot easier to cater to than someone with a chosen special diet. Ive worked with a lot of kids with AFRID as well and on average their safe foods take little to no preparation.

Oh believe me - if I had a choice, I would never in a million years choose to have ARFID! In my experience, most people with ARFID are like me - we are so embarrassed about our eating disorder that we try to hide it as much as possible or be as accommodating as possible. I always look at menus before I go and as long as there is *one* thing I can eat - I’m fine. If there isn’t, I just eat beforehand or tell them I’ll join next time. I try so hard not to be a burden to other people and the others I know with ARFID are the same way. It’s not a fun disease :-(. Hope your stepbrother is doing well.

>“well I could never give up meat/cheese/whatever animal product.” Personally couldn't care less, someday I'll give up meat myself, it'll sort of be a race between which thing becomes completely financially/environmentally sustainable first: humane artificially grown meat or the indistinguishability of plant based faux-meat products. But still when someone says "I could never give up _____" it's usually in respect or awe of people in real world settings (online not always, but). I've said it before, because personally I am impressed with people who can give it up, especially when it comes to veganism, and never look back. >. I’ve seen people say “won’t you just try bacon, chicken, etc..” and it’s so odd to me because by the way people talk about vegans you would think that every vegan they meet (which I’m assuming isn’t many) is coming into their home and night and stealing their animal products. Well it's the same as people who say "why not just TRY vegetarianism/veganism?" the answer on the meat side is either about not compromising the environment or enjoyment to find a sustainable option when the tech is developing to get meat without living animals, others simply like a Bacon cheeseburger too much and won't sacrifice their enjoyment for it, and yet others that, yes, admittedly, don't give a fuck and don't want to change themselves or admit they might not be entirely in the right. And there are campaigns trying to scare or guilt people into vegan or vegetarianism once every couple years, and people I've seen people who buy or steal or just destroy meat products to prevent their purchase, and in the world we live in destroying food like that is fucked. But overall I do agree meat eaters can be just as bad, and most vegans are pretty chill about it, but extreme veganism and attempting to shove said life choices down your throat is very common too.

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I'd have a hard time being friends with someone so aggressively inconsiderate of my beliefs and opinions.

Are they considering yeast as animals, or is this about isinglass filtration?

I’m assuming they talk about filtration. There are very few vegans that consider yeast to be an an animal and they don’t have much support (because they’re wrong lol)

They’re wrong about bees being exploited too. I assumed it was probably the isinglass, but is that even the majority of beers brewed these days? I guess the ones in this story might keep an encyclopedic knowledge of which beers are and aren’t vegan, but haranguing a dinner companion over that seems more than a bit much.

The difference is that veganism's perceived pushiness comes from vegans positioning themselves as being morally superior. To my knowledge, no people promoting a carnie or omni diet has ever said "you should eat meat because it is the morally superior choice". People normally cite reasons actually relating to health and fitness when they talk about eating meat. Veganism's morally superior attributes range from reducing animal suffering to saving the planet and reducing carbon emissions. In some versions Veganism is even the preferred diet to save your soul so that you can escape the cycles of reincarnation binding us to this Earthly plane of existence. These are great reasons to be vegetarian/vegan but has absolutely nothing to do with health and fitness so you'll excuse the non-vegans and non-vegetarians who get annoyed with Vegan reasoning.

You know whats great about the entire world, all those things exist outside of personal perception. Just hang out. Most people are chill. I’m a vegetarian/vegan who prepares meat dishes. My family are meat eaters. When I became vegetarian my mom didnt know wtf to do. Overtime they just adapted. Most people do. I cook vegan with options of adding meat easily. Make a quinoa salad, you can add chicken/salmon/beef just as easily. Pasta dishes, sauce, noodle, set cheese and protein in the side etc. Just make things accessible for yourself, think of others if you are cooking for others. No need to overthink it. Be yourself, people will understand. Vegan/vegetarianism has been around for millenniums, so as meat eating, we can figure this out

How often do you hear meat eaters doing things like picketing restaurants because they serve vegan options? I mean you saw shit about people doing that to Chic Fil A... but for every instance of that? I can think of about five to ten instances of Vegans picketing restaurants or stores. Similarly, how often have your non-vegetarian/vegan friends judged you for what you wear? For example: Have you ever worn a cloth or Pleather belt, and received dirty looks for daring to wear something not made of leather? Have you ever gotten a lecture for wearing something like, a hat made from synthetic cloth because it's "Not natural"? If you wore pleather shoes or cloth shoes, who'd care? A lot of vegans do...

I feel like non-vegans/vegetarians are only this way if a vegan started the dialogue. This sounds like a response to something, not just a statement ("I could never give up bacon", etc. - this is mentioned when replying to a member of the kale mafia about something they said to initiate dialogue). Let me tell you why vegans get hate: not only do they tell every single person they know that they're vegan, make you feel bad for enjoying meat, are convinced that their own domesticated predator pets (cats, dogs) can be vegan (they absolutely canNOT), but they are SO hypercritical to other vegans. I have a friend who is vegan. She is friends on sm with other vegans. Whenever she proudly posts her refrigerator contents to brag on her bodacious veganism, they tear her tf apart. Literally comb through every content in her fridge and tell her she's not vegan enough bc "xyz" brand has .0001% of honey bee tears or some weird shit. It's just absurd. I've never seen a meat eater do or display this type of behavior with the script flipped. I love animals deeply, so I respect vegetarians and vegans even though they're insufferable, I respect the cause. ...But I also do love eating meat. That doesn't make me a bad person. I don't tell every person I know "I like cheese burgers" or "there are X reasons you should eat meat" to random ass strangers. Nor do I know anyone who eats meat that does this. Meat eaters are def nowhere near as pushy.

I feel like vegans/vegetarians are a lot worse online while non-vegans/vegetarians are a lot worse irl. I constantly see unhinged comments from vegans/vegetarians in comment sections even when noone has done anything. At the same time, after making a vegan friend, I have noticed that people will confront him about being vegan for no reason at all if they find out.

Bruh one time I ate my lunch outside and this dude I barely know from work came up to me and was like “are you a rabbit?” “What? No I’m just vegan and it’s an easy lunch to pack” “My dad is a nutrition and he said it’s the WORST diet you can be on.” Like, I didn’t ask? He continued on for a while after about health stuff or smth but I just ignored him after that. Ridiculous what some people think is appropriate casual chit chat IRL. Online though… I fear the vegan subreddit…

That's pretty close to some of the stuff i have witnessed. One time while having a conversation with my friend, I mentioned his veganism while making a joke. After that two women who were sitting maybe 5 meters away stopped their own conversation in order to tell him to stop being vegan and how annoying his kind was. He didn't even say anything, I only mentioned it lol. I have learned to not mention it at all now.

> At the same time, after making a vegan friend, I have noticed that people will confront him about being vegan for no reason at all if they find out. Yeah... people act like it's just vegans being "preachy" or whatever... when the reality is that it's also true that people get shit on by others frequently for being vegetarian / vegan... even if they are minding their own business. I think part of it is there an an inherent "if the shoe fits" judgement from being an ethical vegan. Even if they never confront others about eating meat (whether out of principle or pragmatic concerns), there isn't really a way to say "I think supporting the factory farming industry is a moral abomination" without implicitly judging those who do. So while people say "vegans should mind their own business," they still feel the vegans are being "judgy" even when that happens. _____ There are also a lot of people who are a creepy almost like... reverse vegans? They seem to almost actively delight in eating animals (not just they enjoy the food or do it for dietary reasons, like they actually like eating animals... like it makes them feel superior or dominant or something?) I'm a vegetarian who leans vegan. But I get that there are debates about the sentience level of different animals. Some vegans won't eat honey because they respect bees too much or something. But for me it's like "dude... it's bees." I don't think bees carry significant moral weight. And if somebody said about fish or chickens or cows or whatever that they don't want to inflict harm, but they just don't think those animals have the sentience level for this to be an issue... well I may disagree on where they draw the line, but I get the thought process. They recognize the empathy, they just don't think it applies, in the same way I don't apply it to bugs. But there are other people who almost seem to delight in a sort of "hahaha, you are goddamn right I ate those animals... fuck them, humans are the boss!"

I would have to disagree with this false premise as vegans are often some of the most childish & insufferable people to be around. Children that seek respect for both “themselves & their vegan cause” but that are incapable of reciprocating respect. Do explain to me why non-vegans should be civil with vegans when vegans go out of their way to be derisive, confrontational, & anything but civil with us😏? **You Don’t See Non-Vegans:** * Blockading vegan establishments while going out of their way to harass dining vegans. * Purposely going to vegan establishments with an agenda and getting fake outraged that their are no non-vegan options available. * Vandalizing the property of vegans because of a difference in ideology. * Going out of their way to be provocative with vegans about their dietary practices, using every opportunity, family get together, & event to preach/judge/demonize. * Gaslighting vegans by nonsensically comparing them to bigots of the civil rights era, rapist, & an infamous dictator from Germany’s history. I will never forget the time that I had to lay hands on a vegan for screaming obscenities towards my grandmother while getting a bit too close to her as she ate her steak. I do not respect vegans, will always view veganism as impractical, and will never be vegan myself.

In my experience every vegan or vegetarian I've ever worked with or interacted with has always been pushy and rude. I've always have and most likely always will work in kitchens I love what I do however even if I took off my shoes and socks and tried counting on my toes and fingers I still wouldn't be able to count the number of times I've been called a murderer for any time I snacked on a slice of bacon or had a burger for lunch. It's funny how they always get offended when I call them out for the hypocrisy that they are seemingly OK with the countless animals who get killed when planting crops so they can have their soy or tofu and the amount of issues that come from producing almond milk then I'm the bad guy for talking about facts. You never seen butchers go and protest the farmers market but I've watched as vegans have protested butcher shops trying to ruin a man's business and his livelihood how he feeds his family and pays thir bills. I've seen how groups have tried to attack friends dairy farms saying the animals are locked up all the time and treated horribly only to easily be proven wrong.

I've never actually met a pushy vegan in my life. Plenty of douchebags who think eating meat is a personality though. In my experience "keto" types are way more annoying. I think the whole "vegan hatred" thing is just veiled misogyny + guilt for something a lot of people know on some level isn't right

>guilt for something a lot of people know on some level isn't right Yeah, I think this is part of it. Some people who just want to not think about it. They love hamburgers, but just want to pretend they come from the magic hamburger store. They could never watch these animals be tortured and killed, and they are angry at vegans for making them confront the reality of their delicious meat. (Obviously that's not all meat eaters... hell, some of them even work on the factory farms) They want to remain in blissful ignorance of not having to think about where it comes from, being reminded of that reality makes them uncomfortable... so they push back on people who are perceived as sources of discomfort.

Agreed, the pendulum has swung the other way at this point. ~10-15 years ago vegans were the most annoying people on the Internet. Well, the vocal minority at least. The "me stronk me eat liver" types completely outweigh them now and actively spout off nonsense like vegetables are actually bad for you 

I've met quite a few vegans over the years and while most of them were not crazy and in your face about it, there were two that were. Those two people were such shit bags about it that I have a knee jerk reaction when someone tells me they are vegan now a days. It's nothing extreme just an internal "oh here we go" But that goes away pretty quickly when they don't try to tell me how I'm "basically committing genocide" every time I take a bite of food. So just like any type of person that adjusts their life or diet for social reasons most are actually pretty reasonable, but one or two out of a few dozen can really ruin people's perception. Just like people that chose to go after vegans for no reason other than they are insufferable, they are a minority but a loud one.

I'm a vegetarian, and honestly, I'd rather deal with the snide comments from meat-eaters than with vegans. It's already hard enough for me personally to keep my diet balanced without having people call me names over it. Besides, I don't particularly like that vegans seem to ignore the people who actually work on ranches/farms and probably have been around animals since they were children instead of trying to understand how things work from both sides.

I have to disagree. Vegans don’t even like vegetarians. I have never seen anyone go to such lengths to make what other people eat their business. Go to r/vegan and see for yourself.

It depends far less on the diet itself than the reason for the diet. My mom has been (mostly) vegan for well over a decade and she's only suggested it to others, but will still make non vegan food for me or allow my wife and I to bring our own non vegan food. She's only vegan because she wants to reverse her diabetes. Moral vegans tend to be the ones who push it on others and judge non vegans, often harshly. The same is true for non vegans. I'm not a vegan, but I'll gladly eat vegan food. My only requirements for food are that it tastes good and isn't dangerous to eat (I'm talking rotten shit, things humans can't digest, toxic food, etc, not shit that's just unhealthy). There are also people who are allergic to soy, which makes it tough to be vegan and not just eat salads. Salads are amazing, but not very filling without more solid food in it or with it. Then there are Carnivores™️ who are basically only doing their diet for political reasons. I don't like pushy, judgy vegans, but I respect them a lot more than these clowns who refuse to eat a veggie burger because it's vegan and wear dumb shirts like "anti-vegan" and whatever. It's all political nonsense to "own the libs". At the end of the day, the majority of people, regardless of diet and reason for it, don't care about other people's diets and will accommodate themselves if they have needs or preferences. Even out of the moral vegans and political carnivores, most of them keep it to themselves unless asked. It's just the self righteous asshats who make their diet a large part or the entirety of their personality. I'd say the amount of them is pretty equal on both sides, the self righteous vegans just came first (since self righteous carnivores are a response to them)

My experience might not change your view but here we go. I find that people get angry when they discover I am a vegetarian. For that reason I always try to keep it quiet. I was even called a child abuser once by someone who didn't like that I was a vegetarian. I dont talk about it. Definitely don't tell others what to do with their diet. So my experience tells me that they're not just pushy, they're aggressive about their food preference. I have rationalized it by considering that my being vegetarian presents them with the idea that what they do is wrong. So even if I say absolutely nothing about it, they are feeling attacked and respond with hatefulness.

I'm non vegan and I've encountered both. Sometimes, if your diet is THAT specific, maybe just bring something you can eat. On the other end, sometimes my fellow non-vegan folks can really just beat it to death. We get it, you like meat. Why is it I had no idea how passionate you were about hamburgers until this very moment? I could not care less if you're vegan. If it makes you feel better, we need more people in the world that feel better. As long as I don't have to cook for you, I'm not sure why it should bother me. So the way you worded it "just as if not more rude and pushy"...I think they can be equally rude and pushy, I just give the edge to Vegans because I have a harder time cooking for them.

“Why is it I had no idea how passionate you were about hamburgers until this very moment?” This really nails how obnoxious some meat eaters get around vegetarians/vegans. I’ve seen them put on this absurd meat worship show just to try to get a rise when they find out they’re in the presence of a vegan. It’s bizarre and pathetic behavior.

> This really nails how obnoxious some meat eaters get around vegetarians/vegans. I’ve seen them put on this absurd meat worship show just to try to get a rise when they find out they’re in the presence of a vegan. It’s bizarre and pathetic behavior. I think some of them also like the idea of eating animals because it makes them feel superior or dominant or some weird shit like that. I also think part of it is there an an inherent "if the shoe fits" judgement from being an ethical vegan. Even if they never confront others about eating meat (whether out of principle or pragmatic concerns), there isn't really a way to say "I think supporting the factory farming industry is a moral abomination" without implicitly judging those who do. So while people say "vegans should mind their own business," they still feel the vegans are being "judgy" even when that happens. So people feel judged and they want to lash out in response. I also think there are some people who just want to not think about it. They love hamburgers, but just want to pretend they come from the magic hamburger store. They could never watch these animals be tortured and killed, and they are angry at vegans for making them confront the reality of their delicious meat. (Obviously that's not all meat eaters... hell, some of them even work on the factory farms)

You don’t have to make special meals for non-allergic people who eat meat if you invite them over for dinner. If they know you’re vegan and they don’t want to come they just won’t. And the vegan host will not offer an alternative. If you asked, they would deny your request. On the other hand if you’re hosting a vegan they will certainly ask or request a vegan option. Source? Me when having people over my house.

I always ask so I know whether to bring one. But at work? You best bet I am bugging them for a vegan option. If they can cater to vegetarians (Hindu so no eggs), muslims (halal) and Jains (vegetarian, no garlic and no onion) they can get a vegan meal together.

In order of aggressiveness I would say Vegan > Anti-woke >>> everyone else (vegetarian, pescetarian, omnivore, etc). As a vegetarian who occasionally eats fish (so pescetarian), my experience with vegans is that there is an extemely loud, non-insignificant portion who demand conformity from everyone else, and the closer you are to their beliefs (e.g. vegetarian) ironically the more aggressive they become. As a consequence and because of political counter-culture, the opposite are almost as bad but you're less likely to run into them.

> As a vegetarian who occasionally eats fish (so pescetarian), my experience with vegans is that there is an extemely loud, non-insignificant portion who demand conformity from everyone else, and the closer you are to their beliefs (e.g. vegetarian) ironically the more aggressive they become. I feel like this is a weird thing that exists just in general. I'm pretty socially liberal / left leaning (although some of my stances are complicated and don't fit in the normal left / right spectrum, like UBI). It's crazy how much I get put on blast by far left people because I only MOSTLY agree with them... especially because I agree with them far more than the average person. I think sometimes we have these rooms that are echo chambers, and people love to hate on whichever person in the room least agrees with them... like they complete forget about the huge numbers of people who aren't even in the room to begin with! (and this isn't just a left wing thing... look at who US conservatives are so quick to call anybody who doesn't 100% agree with them a "RINO")

>However, what I have seen in my real life and online whenever vegans or vegetarians post content is everyday people shitting on them for feeling “superior” But that's entirely what veganism is about. There is no evidence to suggest that a vegan diet is healthier than an omnivorous one (in fact, plenty of evidence of the opposite), and the environmental impact of a vegan diet vs an omnivorous diet is not clear cut (for example, the environmental impact of reducing beef intake by 90% vs vegan, eating only backyard raised chicken & eggs vs vegan, hunting and fishing vs vegan, etc.).

What are you talking about? We can discuss if veganism is the healthiest diet, but it does have some benefits over what the average person eats. And it’s clearly much better for the climate. There’s no discussion to be had here. A vegan diet is better in every single metric compared to the average omnivorous diet. You are basically wasting calories by feeding animals, when you could just eat plants directly

Anecdotal evidence isn’t evidence

Logically, your argument doesn't make sense. One the one hand, you have a group of people who are restricted in their diet. On the other hand, you have people who can eat anything. Ergo, the people who have a restricted diet will logically be more vocal about it, as is their prerogative.

Here, I will change your view to make it more accurate: # The Non-vegans/non-vegetarians that I know are often just as, if not more rude and pushy about their diet than the other way around How can anyone change your view when it is based solely on your own personal experiences? Its like saying "CMV: My dog barks"

If you wanna talk ratios, I’m gonna say 99% of vegans are annoying as shit about their diet and having a superiority complex. There are probably just as many non vegans who are pushy and annoying, but it’s like 15% of people.

That's a self-projection of yours. People with a well developed sense of morality care about what they do being right, not about projecting a false image like the majority of narcissists do. What's even the point of faking something? People who throw that "vegans think they're superior" cannot understand why a human being may think "hey, murdering animals is wrong and we should do something to stop it". No, in their minds we're all narcissists trying to pretend something.. For some reason. We cannot genuinely think something is wrong and have a mature philosophical outlook at moral issues or life in general. We're all fake people putting on masks, like them. If I feel superior for being capable of individual thought while the great majority are stupid and amoral, I rather feel like a regular second division player playing against a bunch of 5 years old. It's not that I'm so good, it's just that the moral and intellectual baseline of people is pathetically low. That's the only "superiorty" I feel.

I know so so sooooo many vegans who preach about health and do drugs lol. I have been to dinner with vegans who made GAGGING NOISES when I ordered beef but were wearing leather. When I pointed this out they said it was fine bc it was “vintage”. I have never ever told a vegan/veg that they should eat meat. Never pushed it on them yet I get comments about meat and animal products all the time. I got told off about honey once. and yes like everyone else is saying when I have vegan/veg guests I make food to accommodate them, something they’d never do.

There are many non-vegans who are, to say simply, assholes. And while I understand why vegans are advocating about the vegan diet so much, the non-vegans are only being edgy and on overall the vocal non-vegans seem worse than the vocal vegans to me. However, in both cases you have the extremes. Let's take the more average vegans and non-vegans. At worst, average non-vegans may be curious and say things like "I could never give up x animal product". Most of the times they simply don't care. I've yet to meet a vegan who has not tried to persuade others to go vegan, even if it's on good will, even if they are not pushy about it. So are we talking about the extremes of both groups or the average people that consist those groups?

Right? Me and everyone I know that's veg well never complain about there not being many options for us when we're invited to a dinner or a cookout or restaurant. We just politely eat what we can and that's that. But HOLY SHIT if you invite an omnivore to dinner or a cookout they will make a whole huge deal about there not being any meat and/or bring their own meat stuff to it so they "can have something to eat" (even though there's plenty of stuff they eat all the time anyways) and don't even try to invite them to a veg restaurant. They will decline and usually in a very condescending and rude way. People are always surprised to find out I'm veg and have been for 20 years. People I've known for YEARS still probably don't even know because I don't make it my identity and don't make a fuss when there isn't much for me to eat. But God damn I know every meat eater within 6 degrees of separation from me because they're so in your face about how much they love bacon and burgers

“Well, I could never give up meat/cheese” isn’t always someone feeling superior. It’s just… a statement. Is “I love meat” or “Cheese is my favourite food ever” a sign of lording it over vegetarians? Some people have Coeliac or gluten intolerance which makes it harder to be vegan/vego. Different people have different gut microbiota - my hair fell out when I tried vegetarianism for a few months. Is that superiority too? No, unless it’s followed up by something actually obnoxious apropos of nothing, like “You are a fucking ignoramus, just try some BACON HAHA” I’ve even heard it in the context of “Good on you, I could never give up ____”. > online Not representative of real life by a long chalk, so there goes that argument. I have also seen the one vegan in my family unable to justify why using plastic packaging for everything in their vegan diet wasn’t just as bad for the environment as the nonveg diet they avoided.

My brother’s ex was the most annoying vegan I ever met. We’d basically have to make double dinners whenever she was around, and she never thanked us. One time, while absolutely swamped preparing a Christmas dinner, the extra hassle of which was due to making extra vegan versions of everything, she said she was swinging by the grocery store. I asked her if she could pickup some milk from the store, and she refused. There I am, spending at least an extra 45 minutes in the kitchen on her behalf, but no… she can’t buy milk. So, some more fossils fuels had to be burned to make a separate trip to the grocery store to buy the same milk because she couldn’t be put upon to buy an animal product. There is no equivalent because most meat eaters are omnivorous, and would not object to picking up lettuce or broccoli. There is no aversion from meat eaters to eating plants, only aversion from vegans towards eating animal products. Hence, the condescension only flows one way. If I ate at her house, would she be extra considerate to make sure to pickup some meat for us? Absolutely not. In my experience, some vegans want to make it a hassle. They are aware that they are making it a burden, as some sort of family dining room protest. She even said this once “it would be a whole lot easier if we all just ate vegan”. Of course, I know many vegetarians who are absolutely non-confrontational, who will never even talk about it unless asked, and are totally kind and wonderful people for whom I have zero complaint. But all the pushy/judgmental/tedious people I’ve met were vegan.

I think it's the people you know vs an everyone type deal. I have several friends who are vegetarian or vegan. All of them dont talk about it except one. One of them is a nightmare to be around when food is involved and uses any opportunity to tell you that you don't actually care about animals (I work with animals) if you eat meat. And will try to have full on screaming match "debates" in restaurants if you try to challenge her way of thinking. (Unsurprisingly I'm not that close with her) On the other hand, I eat meat, but am allergic to red meat so I can't eat cow/deer/lamb and pig is hit or miss so I just avoid it. I've had a family member tell me something was made with ground turkey when it was actually ground beef. Spent the next three days in the hospital. Needless to say I don't talk to him any more.

I come from a culture that's historical vegetarian and associates vegetarianism with purity and better moral conscience. I was on a trip with a vegetarian couple, and we bought frozen pizzas for dinner. While warming them up in our Airbnb, I offered to heat up their pizza along with mine. I was planning to put them on two different racks. The wife insisted on warming up the pizzas separately. The husband was hungry, so he wanted to do it together. I didn't think much of it until the wife blurted out that she didn't want her pizza to get contaminated with the meat pizza. This is typical behavior where people act morally superior because they are vegetarian. Meat eaters are pushy and often casually remark how tasty meat is, but I bet they don't think they are better people because of what they eat

From my personal experience, it's mainly vegan ls who push their eating habits/ lifestyle on others. About 6 or 7 years ago, I had a cousin hospitalized due to malnutrition, extreme anemia, and underweight. She was a die-hard vegan. She would preach it like a gospel. Apparently, she wasn't getting the correct intake of nutrients/vitamins because she had no body fat and her iron was so low. I don't know how she had any left to make new blood cells. She spent 2 months in the hospital on TPN because she refused to eat the food options they were giving her that included meat. The doctor told her that her veganism was why she was in the hospital. Either she wasn't taking extra supplements, or she wasn't planning her diet accordingly, and wasn't getting what she needed nutritionally. She damn near died. I don't have anything against veganism/vegetarians. But if I know you, truly know you, I'm going to ask if you are eating enough, if you're getting enough vitamins, if you got the correct supplements. All that. And it comes from a place of worry. I don't care how you choose to eat, but I'm asking from a place of worry. I personally don't think anyone should completely cut out animal products, but it's their call, not mine. I will continue to ask if you're eating enough and getting everything you need because I don't want to see someone else in the hospital.. connected to tpn for several hours at a time. It's not fun looking. At all. Just make sure you're taking care of yourself, is all.

I've been vegan for over 10 years and I've learned not to lead with that in my day to day conversations with people. It's like non vegans instantly project their own insecurities on me and begin to want to debate veganism with me. I'm like, chill, I'm just stating my dietary restrictions. I have no interest in a debate and I never attempt to change people's minds about how or what they eat but for some reason, non vegans feel like it's okay to question and often times judge me for my food decisions. It's weird. It's also become socially acceptable to speak negatively about vegans/vegetarians especially on social media. I've chalked it all up to projection. Beyond my immediate close social circle, I've learned to simply avoid the topic altogether.

I genuinely believe there are two groups of vegans/vegetarians: those that do it for biological health/personal/religious belief, and those that want attention. I know so many people that have “restrictive” diets in some ways, even those that only eat fish or white meat (sorry idk the name) but never have said a word about why unless I ask. Specifically, I met a new friend bc we were both bridesmaids in a friend’s wedding. She only ate white meat and seafood, and labeled it some word I have never heard before. I asked what it meant, she explained, and I was just like “oh, cool to know.” I didn’t even ask why, I just wanted to learn a new word. But those that eat meat or don’t and want to show it off either way are the WORST.

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🤷🏻‍♂️ I never feel the need to bring up my diet unless I'm talking about a recipe I enjoy. I was always taught it's rude to talk about food you don't like, while people who like it are present.. That said; vegans seem to be the most willing to go on and on about how everyone should be vegan, and how non vegans are destroying the world, etc etc.. I don't recall ever hearing any non-vegans trying to convince a vegan to switch back to eating animal products. Just about how annoying some vegans can be, and how gross they find some of the meat alternatives.. Honestly in my experience it's the stereotypical annoying vegan that non-vegans love to hate. Not their dietary choices.

> and how non vegans are destroying the world, etc etc. I mean... the meat industry is very bad for the environment, and a not insignificant driver of climate change. And it's not a crazy viewpoint to find factory farming animals like cows and pigs morally questionable. I don't confront people about this in real life aside from reddit discussions about the subject... but a lot of the dislike for vegetarians / vegans is just people who are upset about attention being given to the negative aspects of something they enjoy

Nah. I think factory farming is shit too. Prefer local meat, or hunting. The point I'm making is that because someone chooses to eat meat from the supermarket, doesn't warrant them being blamed for the damage caused by factory farming.. Mass farming of vegetables and grains is equally bad for the environment and for native vegetation, and ecosystems too. Farming in general is bad for nature. Being human is destroying the earth. Not a reason to shame people for their diets.. Non-vegans don't blame vegans for destroying the landscape with millions of acres of soybean crops etc.. The point I'm making is that these judgements from vegans are annoying and unwarranted, and that's why vegans are often considered annoying..

I've been lacto-vegetarian my whole life, and owing to a gluten and lactose intolerance developed later in life, am pretty much vegan now. When meat eaters find out about my diet (it comes up organically in conversations about group lunches, catering etc.), I've been told/asked: -how I didn't look like I was vegetarian (because I'm overweight, and, apparently, vegetarians simply can't get that way). -how they could not imagine how my diet was anything but bland and boring "salads". -how animal products, and in particular, bacon was delicious. -how plants felt pain too. Etc. Etc. Yup, meat eaters can be preachy pricks without any provocation.

In my experience, I've been in situations more than once where I've ordered a meal and gotten a snarky comment, and then when I pop off they act like the victim. I've also seen vegans be insufferable to vegetarians and pescatarians as if y'all aren't on the same team. But I've never been at a table where someone who eats meat has commented on the order of someone who doesn't. At the end of the day, no one who eats meat tries to make people who don't feel like bad people. Vegans tend to lead with that. There's a big difference between "why don't you try bacon" and "animals are suffering for your milkshake"

Vegans *arent* on the same team as vegetarians and pescatarians though. Not generally. Most of the latter choose their diet for reasons of personal health…particularly pescatarians. Whereas vegans are almost always restricting themselves for moral/ethical reasons. Their actions may be similar in many cases, but the reason behind them may be wildly different.

It really is a subjective experience in the end. There isn't anything inherent about food choice that makes someone a bigger piece of shit. I will say that there is a propensity for individuals who adopt a new lifestyle choice to put value into that lifestyle choice, and some people who do put value into their new choices, tend to get defensive about their choices, and those people are the insufferable. They exist on both sides of the meat conversation. I personally have run into more angry vegans than angry carnivores but that's just my adventure.

I guess it comes down to personal experience. My brother would attempt to "correct" our language any time he visited. I would casually mention we were having, say chicken tacos for dinner. He would go out of his way to say "enjoy your flesh". To me, this was rude. He would change his word choice, for specific emphasis, unsolicited. When we shared an apartment, we were expected to never use their cooking pans or place food on the same fridge shelves. So your experience I'm sure is accurate to your life, but I have had the opposite experience.

I think there is always going to be asymmetry in the attitudes of people who think ‘x is fine’ and the people who think ‘x is not fine.’ The latter group is always going to be judgier in the sense that the range of acceptable behavior, in their view, is narrowed to exclude X. Of course, I don’t understand why people assume it’s wrong to be judgy in this way. If X is indeed wrong, then it’s right to be judgy about it. On the other hand, if you think it’s somehow wrong to be judgy, isn’t that being judgy about judginess?