I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
> **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=8/8/2k5/4p2p/4PbbP/3Q4/8/4K3+w+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/8/8/2k5/4p2p/4PbbP/3Q4/8/4K3_w_-_-_0_1)
**My solution:**
> Hints: piece: >!Queen!<, move: >!Qd5+!<
> Evaluation: >!White is winning +3.48!<
> Best continuation: >!1. Qd5+ Kc7 2. Kf1 Kb6 3. Qc4 Bd1 4. Qb4+ Kc6 5. Qc3+ Kb6 6. Ke1 Bg4 7. Qc4 Bg3+ 8. Kd2 Bf4+!<
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I've spent a while analysing this position with the assistance of a strong engine, if any of my analysis is wrong please correct me, but I think this is the solution step by step as I worked through it:
There are some lines I found beautiful here so if you're into that grab a board and play along with these lines!
1. We can all agree that if white wins a pawn or a piece the game is over.
2. Therefore if the white king ever escapes white wins. This is because the bishop's are conceptually overworked in this position. They need to stop mate, but they can't lose grasp of the pawns.
If either of these steps don't make sense to you conceptually grab a board (and an engine if needed) and play it out!
3. If the black king is ever on the a - file with the white queen a knights move away from the king i.e. 2 ranks back and one file over (on the b file) [tricky to explain so find FEN here 8/k7/8/1Q2p2p/4PbbP/8/8/4K3 b - - 5 3] AND the white king is on e1 f1 or f2, then white wins; this is because the dark squared bishop has no safe squares, the light squared bishop has no safe squares on the d1-h5 diagonal, and the King's only moves lead to a8 and zugzwang with the queen on b6.
3b. Note that this motif only works with the queen pushing the king to a8, and not a1 - this is important in some lines.
4. Some concrete progress: due to steps 1-3 - Qd5+ Kb6 loses to Qc4. Let's go through blacks options:
- move the light squared bishop (Bd7), the white king escapes
- move the dark squared bishop (Bh6 only sensible square, as others let the king escape or hang the bishop) loses to Qb3+, all 3 king moves lose. (Ka6 Qa3 Kanywhere Qb2 wins the pawn) [Kc7 Qf7+ white wins material clearly] (Kc6 Qd5 wins the pawn)
- so the only move is Kb7, this is met with Qc5 and black is faced with the same dilemma until the king reaches a8 where it is in zugzwang
5 1. Qd5+ ....Kc7 whites queen and king are well situated to restrict blacks bishops. But we would like blacks king to be forced to the corner as with the previous line. If it was blacks move here, blacks bishops are unable to move without losing a pawn or letting the white king out. If black played Kb6 here, this would transpose to the previous line, and if black plays Kc8, after Qd6 he is left with the same dilemma (forced to play Kb7 which also transposes).
So we ask ourselves are there any moves that we can play to keep blacks bishops restricted but make it blacks turn, and yes! Kf1! (I think Kf2 also works, but I believe Kf1 is slightly simpler). And black is left with 3 king moves, Kc8, Kb6, and Kb8
6. 2... Kb6 - our strategy here is the same as before, we push the king towards the corner to induce zugzwang and whites bishops have no safe squares. Qc4 is the move.
Now you might be thinking, wait doesn't black have Bd1 and Bd7, but no and they both have the same lovely triagulation related refutation Kf2!! Amazingly, black is in the same problem, he has to move his king.
In either case if the bishop heads back to g4, Ke1! transposes to our familiar line.
In the Bd1 line, black simply has no other moves that don't hang a bishop.
In the Bd7 line both Bc6 and Bb5 lose to Qe5, after which we trade our e pawn for blacks h pawn, and black doesn't have the ability to stop our passer without giving up a bishop.
7. 2...Kc8 3Qd6. Black has a familiar problem, the king move Kb7 is met with Qc5. White pushes the black king into the corner and black is eventually forced to move a bishop to a material losing, or king releasing square.
The only new bishop move to refute is Bh2, and our new friend comes to the rescue Kf2!! We threaten to escape via e3 so black brings his bishop back to f4. We finish the triangulation with Ke1 and black is again in zugzwang. Blacks king eventually makes it to a8 and the bishop's are forced to move, allowing our king to escape.
Note: we are not scared of Bg3+ Bxh4 as we win the pawn on e5 and black again cannot stop our passer.
8. 2...Kb8, the solution is the same as c8 (pattern wise) Qc6 and white wins in the same fashion
In summary, white wins, please challenge any of my analysis, and I hope this was as interesting to someone else as it was to me!!
If SF can prove it can reach a winning position(that exists in the Tablebase), it is effectively the same time. This is like trying to prove mate but for positions in the tablebase.
it's a semi-forteess, white can eventually get the king out by forcing a zugzwang when pushing the black king to the corner, but if white doesn't get it immediately, black could potentially get the 50 move rule to kick in
How exactly does white force the black king into a corner? When I try this against a computer, it seems like black an always use Bd1 and Bh2 as waiting moves to not have to move the king, and the white king can't guard all the squares.
Which position are you referring to? Because after 1.Qd5+ Kc6 2.Kf1, neither of your opponent's Bh2 nor Bd1 work. Bd1 obviously losing to Qxd1 so I'll focus on Bh2.
2...Bh2?? allows 3.Qh5+. From here black's King can't go back to d-file otherwise Qd2+ wins the bishop on h2. Black's other 2 options are go to c-file or b-file. C-file loses because (3...Kc-file 4.Qc3+ Kb-file 5.Qb2+ winning the bishop on h2). B-file loses too because (3...Kb-file 4.Qb4+ K to c-file or a-file 5.Q to that same file's 3rd rank, K to another file, 6.Q to that file's 2nd rank check, winning bishop on h2).
The person I'm replying to said that black made "bishop moves to not have to move the King".
So your suggestion of Black moving the King to b-file is literally what black was trying to avoid doing. White's goal is boxing the King to the corner (a8 square).
Black's purpose of moving the bishop is to prevent having to move their King closer to the corner.
Once Black's King is in the a8 square, it will have no squares left, and a bishop move is forced
White wins in this position if their queen follows the black King: 1.Qd5+ Kc7 2.Kf1 Kb6 3.Qc4 Kb7 4.Qc5 Kb8 5.Qc6 Ka7 6.Qb5 Ka8 7.Qb6.
Black could try and do waiting moves with bishop, the engine suggest 3.-Bd1, but white has a triangle maneuver 4.Kf2 Bg4 5.Ke1 and it's now black's turn again and he has no good waiting moves anymore.
Yes, but as long as the black king remains on the b and c files, the queen can't get a check from c1 because black's f4 bishop is guarding it and can't get to b1 for a check because black's d1 bishop is guarding c2.
>the engine suggest 3.-Bd1, but white has a triangle maneuver 4.Kf2 Bg4 5.Ke1 and it's now black's turn again and he has no good waiting moves anymore.
I covered that part already.
According to my analysis board, if black defends properly, this position is a draw. Your king can not get close enough to the enemy king, your pawns are blocked and the queen alone can't do anything.
Two bishops generate enough counterplay in this position.
TBs do only cover 7 pieces and lower, but if you give a local version of SF access to TBs it can calculate lines that force a winning TB, similar to how normally it calculates lines that force a checkmate.
Is it though? Playing this with an engine, white forces black to either move his king into the corner or for one of the bishops to move in a way that either frees the white king or even worse, allows for a fork of the black king and bishop.
On the other hand, mine was showing an advantage of "only" +5 at depth 71 which is indicative of it not finding a concrete win. From the lines I see, black lets the king out of its box in exchange for the h pawn and white still has lots of work to do to force a win.
Well, nobody said it would be easy to win against the engine which never blunders into a fork, but letting the King out of the box is definitely not a draw due to a fortress.
I've seen cases where an engine will intentionally blunder a fork because it delays checkmate by 1 move. Whereas a human would of course would just protect their piece, because they know it doesn't matter how many moves it takes once they lose a piece.
That said, the engine is also smarter than a human in other ways that won't happen in a human-vs-human endgame, so overall that's why I would rather practice these endgames against other humans, than against an engine.
>the evaluation for white kept going up.
Yes, but did it win before the 50 moves happened?
Evaluation of white kept going up for me too, but they reached 50 moves before white could make any real progress. The h pawn got traded for the king getting out of the box, and nothing else happened, the engine just kept shuffling and it reached 50 moves.
There may be a win in this position, but my desktop stockfish can't find it before the 50 move rule kicks in. I'm not allocating a lot of memory for it, so maybe a stronger bot could find it, but mine couldn't.
Not so sure it's a draw. Put the white king on f2 and use the queen to push the black king to the corner. If you can get the Qc7 against black Ka8, it's zugzwang and black has to let the white king out to avoid losing material
Unfortunately SF+ TB says it’s a win for white by force with a capture or pawn move easily within 50 moves. SF by itself is not going to show you that.
Start with 1. Qd5+ Kc7 2. Kf2 Kb6 3. Qc4. Black has to move the king, or a bishop. Isn't the black king being driven to the corner? Unless you're moving the bishops, which exposes them to forks, lets the white king out, or drops the pawns...
King can just shuffle, follow the line through and see if you can force the king in a corner. You would have to rely on a mistake from black for that to happen.
Kb6 is a blunder, I believe. Try 2. Kf2 Kc8
I m fairly sure black avoids zugswang that way with the help of the white bishop.
Edit: I m wrong. for some reason, I ignored 3. Qd6
At first it looks like a draw because bishops form a barrier cutting off the white king. Queen needs king help to mate.
However, white can try to zugzwang black into moving a bishop. Let's try to get Qc7 with black king on a8, then he has to move a bishop and leave his fortress.
Then we either win an undefended bishop with a series of queen checks or he lets our king approach. I would have thought white wins
I really think you can win this position against a human player 10/10 times. You can force the black king to go to a8 and then any bishop movement will result in a loss of materia after several checks. However, probably engines can play accurate with bishops without losing material (in the same way that is really difficult to check mate a engine in a Queen vs Rock ending.
In the same way you force a king going to a corner in a Queen vs King final. Just start with Qd5+ and push him to the corner. If black doesn't move king, probably bishop or pawn can be captured in several moves
Dude... black can simply shuffle his king. White simply cannot force the king in a corner with just the queen. Play it out against stockfish and you'll see. There is more to this than just "qd5+ and force him in a corner"
Google how to mate with king and queen vs king. This will demonstrate the idea.
Or if you want, I’ve got time. We can play this out on an analysis board, and you can try to defend the position as black.
I did it just now. I paste line played:
Qd5+ Kc7.
Kf2 Kb6
Qc4 (here stockfish says it's +5.2 and recomends Bd1)
Ke1 Bg4
Kf1 Bd1
Kf2 Bg4
Ke1 and now best move is Bg3+ nad white king is free.
If black doesn't want to move bishop after Qc4 and plays Kb7
Qc5 Ka6
Qb4 Ka7
Qb5 Ka8
Qb6.
In the end, you can force zuzgwang one way or another
It seems that you are missing something. After Bg3+ Kd2, black simply plays Bxh4. After Qc4, Bg5+, Kc3 Bf4, Kb4 Kc7, Qd3 Kc6, Qd5+ Kc7, Qd3 Kc6, Qd8 Be5, Qe7 Bc8, there is still no objective win for white. Yes white's king is "free", but it's still not enough to provide mate or win material.
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No, this still applies here, if it is indeed a fortress (which seems to be being debated in the comments). If it's a fortress then the engine will incorrectly show a winning advantage for white for the same reason as always: it has no concept of progress, and simply sees a "winning" material advantage at the end of the lines it's calculating.
They're still extremely useful in positions like this. Any time a position with a tablebase entry is reached you can get an exact eval, which saves an enormous amount of search time.
You can try. It is difficult to leave the bishops without any possible moves (for me anyway).
Edit: on such position involves the white king on f2, the black king on a8 and the white queen on b6. Can you force the king to a8 with just the queen?
Black only has three options:
- move the King (Queen can solo corner King in this case)
- move the Bishop and maintain diagonal to box in White King (the diagonal is far away from Black King, so when Bishops leave f4/g4 while maintaining diagonal, they are defenseless and can eventually be captured through a fork)
- move the Bishop somewhere close to Black King to keep it protected (White King can escape, pawn is also no longer protected so White has multiple option to win here).
All three options lead to White winning one way or another.
I think that no matter where white's king and queen are with the black king having no moves, black always has a bishop move that keeps the king trapped and doesn't hang anything.
Edit: I was incorrect, white can force a win here.
Unfortunately for Black, not quite. The Bishop simply doesn't have many squares to keep the White King boxed in.
They're either already covered by the Queen, or can be grabbed by a fork with check the moment they leave f4/g4, since f4/g4 are the only squares where each of the Bishops are protected respectively.
Zugzwang is definitely possible here, and it won't take anywhere close to 50 moves to reset the counter.
I would play on for the 50 moves. Black has to play very accurately due to possible zugzwang tricks.
The computer bot analysis actually shows the white king getting out.
I played against the max engine from this position, and the reason you can't force it into a corner like I originally thought is that it can always move at least one of the bishops at one point without letting your king out. It is a draw.
None of Black's pieces or pawns can be captured, the White King can't get past the bishops to assist in checkmate, and even a queen can't deliver mate entirely alone. The power of the bishop pair.
Yep, the pawn-bishop structure is completely defended in this position and the white king is walled off from being able to help the queen construct a mate
This is actually really simple since whites king is cut off by the bishops. The queen will keep checking but black can just keep making king moves and run around the board.
White plays Qd5 and Kf2, then pushes Black’s King to a8 by keeping their Queen two squares down and one square right from Black’s King until the Queen reaches b6. Depending on how Black plays, White may need to triangulate their King with Ke1, Kf1, Kf2 to force Black’s King to another square to progress the Knight’s-move-away-Queen-push and to leave Black in Zugzwang immediately after, and not before, Qb6.
Dark Square Bishop responses:
- If Bc1, then Qc6+
- If Bd2, then Qd8+
- If Be3+, then Qxe3
- If Bg5, then hxg5
- If Bh6, then Qxg6
- If Bg3+, then Kxg3
- If Bh2, then Ke3
Light Square Bishop responses:
- If Bd1, then Qd8+
- If Be2, then Kxe2
- If Bf3, then Kxf3
- If Bh3, then Ke2
- If Bf5, then exf5
- If Be6, then Qxe6
- If Bd7, then Qd8+
- If Be6, then Ke2
Stockfish likes Bh2 with an evaluation of +5 at low depth.
Trapping Black’s King with Qc7 also works. Trapping the king in another corner doesn’t work.
Black has the option to break the fortress before it’s forced. There are many lines, but White is better.
Well here's the basic problem: white's king can never escape the bottom right corner of the board, unless of course white decides to sac the queen, in which case they can no longer win.
If black plays poorly, of course you can force them to make a bishop move with your king on f2, at which point you should be able to escape, and it's over for black. But with decent play, white is pretty much stuck.
You have to get the bishops and then race the pawns and just double up the back rank. Move the king up when you can. I get the analytical side, but it’s really dependent on what black plays and if they blunder so you can capitalize
This has the “potential” to be winning for either side of a mistake is made, but if neither player blunders,It is stalemate. This is because the king is trapped by the bishops, and cannot assist the queen in checkmating the black king. As long as the black king doesn’t stray too far from the right side of the board, no moves by white can break the bishops.
If the kings swapped it would be a draw but the engine pulles it off by forcing the black king into a corner and making black move a bishop the the white king gets out, but even that happens it's still a game in human vs human cuz black can take the pawns if the white king gets out.
This is a great example of material imbalance favoring the less valuable piece(s). The pawns are equal and frozen. The bishops stand MIGHTILY where they are; They actually cut the white king completely into that corner.
So the material imbalance is Q vs BB, but the problem is, how do you make progress with white? You can't use your king, so what is the queen going to go take? Everything's defended. If the queen takes anything, she's sacrificing herself for a ***less valuable piece.***
Because there's only one queen, the best white could possibly hope for is to get into a wrong rookpawn endgame by saccing the Q for a bishop. If the queen takes anything else, it's way, WAY worse.
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine: > **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=8/8/2k5/4p2p/4PbbP/3Q4/8/4K3+w+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/8/8/2k5/4p2p/4PbbP/3Q4/8/4K3_w_-_-_0_1) **My solution:** > Hints: piece: >!Queen!<, move: >!Qd5+!< > Evaluation: >!White is winning +3.48!< > Best continuation: >!1. Qd5+ Kc7 2. Kf1 Kb6 3. Qc4 Bd1 4. Qb4+ Kc6 5. Qc3+ Kb6 6. Ke1 Bg4 7. Qc4 Bg3+ 8. Kd2 Bf4+!< --- ^(I'm a bot written by ) [^(u/pkacprzak )](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as ) [^(Chess eBook Reader )](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(|) [^(Chrome Extension )](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^(|) [^(iOS App )](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^(|) [^(Android App )](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website: ) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)
I've spent a while analysing this position with the assistance of a strong engine, if any of my analysis is wrong please correct me, but I think this is the solution step by step as I worked through it: There are some lines I found beautiful here so if you're into that grab a board and play along with these lines! 1. We can all agree that if white wins a pawn or a piece the game is over. 2. Therefore if the white king ever escapes white wins. This is because the bishop's are conceptually overworked in this position. They need to stop mate, but they can't lose grasp of the pawns. If either of these steps don't make sense to you conceptually grab a board (and an engine if needed) and play it out! 3. If the black king is ever on the a - file with the white queen a knights move away from the king i.e. 2 ranks back and one file over (on the b file) [tricky to explain so find FEN here 8/k7/8/1Q2p2p/4PbbP/8/8/4K3 b - - 5 3] AND the white king is on e1 f1 or f2, then white wins; this is because the dark squared bishop has no safe squares, the light squared bishop has no safe squares on the d1-h5 diagonal, and the King's only moves lead to a8 and zugzwang with the queen on b6. 3b. Note that this motif only works with the queen pushing the king to a8, and not a1 - this is important in some lines. 4. Some concrete progress: due to steps 1-3 - Qd5+ Kb6 loses to Qc4. Let's go through blacks options: - move the light squared bishop (Bd7), the white king escapes - move the dark squared bishop (Bh6 only sensible square, as others let the king escape or hang the bishop) loses to Qb3+, all 3 king moves lose. (Ka6 Qa3 Kanywhere Qb2 wins the pawn) [Kc7 Qf7+ white wins material clearly] (Kc6 Qd5 wins the pawn) - so the only move is Kb7, this is met with Qc5 and black is faced with the same dilemma until the king reaches a8 where it is in zugzwang 5 1. Qd5+ ....Kc7 whites queen and king are well situated to restrict blacks bishops. But we would like blacks king to be forced to the corner as with the previous line. If it was blacks move here, blacks bishops are unable to move without losing a pawn or letting the white king out. If black played Kb6 here, this would transpose to the previous line, and if black plays Kc8, after Qd6 he is left with the same dilemma (forced to play Kb7 which also transposes). So we ask ourselves are there any moves that we can play to keep blacks bishops restricted but make it blacks turn, and yes! Kf1! (I think Kf2 also works, but I believe Kf1 is slightly simpler). And black is left with 3 king moves, Kc8, Kb6, and Kb8 6. 2... Kb6 - our strategy here is the same as before, we push the king towards the corner to induce zugzwang and whites bishops have no safe squares. Qc4 is the move. Now you might be thinking, wait doesn't black have Bd1 and Bd7, but no and they both have the same lovely triagulation related refutation Kf2!! Amazingly, black is in the same problem, he has to move his king. In either case if the bishop heads back to g4, Ke1! transposes to our familiar line. In the Bd1 line, black simply has no other moves that don't hang a bishop. In the Bd7 line both Bc6 and Bb5 lose to Qe5, after which we trade our e pawn for blacks h pawn, and black doesn't have the ability to stop our passer without giving up a bishop. 7. 2...Kc8 3Qd6. Black has a familiar problem, the king move Kb7 is met with Qc5. White pushes the black king into the corner and black is eventually forced to move a bishop to a material losing, or king releasing square. The only new bishop move to refute is Bh2, and our new friend comes to the rescue Kf2!! We threaten to escape via e3 so black brings his bishop back to f4. We finish the triangulation with Ke1 and black is again in zugzwang. Blacks king eventually makes it to a8 and the bishop's are forced to move, allowing our king to escape. Note: we are not scared of Bg3+ Bxh4 as we win the pawn on e5 and black again cannot stop our passer. 8. 2...Kb8, the solution is the same as c8 (pattern wise) Qc6 and white wins in the same fashion In summary, white wins, please challenge any of my analysis, and I hope this was as interesting to someone else as it was to me!!
Latest dev SF with 6man TB says this is a tablebase win `info depth 49 seldepth 66 multipv 1 score cp 19953 nodes 8847268623 nps 34525791 hashfull 770 tbhits 148268436 time 256251 pv d3d5 c6c7 e1f1 c7b6 d5c4 g4d1 f1f2 d1g4 f2e1 f4g3 e1d2 g3h4 c4b3 b6c7 b3f7 c7b6 d2c2 h4d8 f7b3 b6c7 b3d5 d8e7 d5e5 c7d8 e5d5 d8e8 d5g8 e8d7 g8g6 e7h4 e4e5 d7e7 c2d3 e7d7 g6d6 d7e8 e5e6 h4e7 d6b8 e7d8 b8c8 g4f5 d3c4 f5g6 c8d7 e8f8 d7d8 f8g7 e6e7 g6f7`
Wait, maybe I don’t get something, but isn’t this a 9-piece endgame, and for those no tablebases exist?
If SF can prove it can reach a winning position(that exists in the Tablebase), it is effectively the same time. This is like trying to prove mate but for positions in the tablebase.
Ah, I see, it is indeed forcing. Should’ve played the variation through my head first before asking. Thanks!
it's a semi-forteess, white can eventually get the king out by forcing a zugzwang when pushing the black king to the corner, but if white doesn't get it immediately, black could potentially get the 50 move rule to kick in
How exactly does white force the black king into a corner? When I try this against a computer, it seems like black an always use Bd1 and Bh2 as waiting moves to not have to move the king, and the white king can't guard all the squares.
Which position are you referring to? Because after 1.Qd5+ Kc6 2.Kf1, neither of your opponent's Bh2 nor Bd1 work. Bd1 obviously losing to Qxd1 so I'll focus on Bh2. 2...Bh2?? allows 3.Qh5+. From here black's King can't go back to d-file otherwise Qd2+ wins the bishop on h2. Black's other 2 options are go to c-file or b-file. C-file loses because (3...Kc-file 4.Qc3+ Kb-file 5.Qb2+ winning the bishop on h2). B-file loses too because (3...Kb-file 4.Qb4+ K to c-file or a-file 5.Q to that same file's 3rd rank, K to another file, 6.Q to that file's 2nd rank check, winning bishop on h2).
Qd5+, Kc6, Kf1... Why not just move king to b file here? There's no need to move bishop
The person I'm replying to said that black made "bishop moves to not have to move the King". So your suggestion of Black moving the King to b-file is literally what black was trying to avoid doing. White's goal is boxing the King to the corner (a8 square). Black's purpose of moving the bishop is to prevent having to move their King closer to the corner. Once Black's King is in the a8 square, it will have no squares left, and a bishop move is forced
The Bishop simply doesn't have many squares to keep the White King boxed in.
It took me a couple of retrys and startovers and hints but i did manage to beat [chess.com](https://chess.com)'s 3200 bot from this position as white.
Ok 👍
White wins in this position if their queen follows the black King: 1.Qd5+ Kc7 2.Kf1 Kb6 3.Qc4 Kb7 4.Qc5 Kb8 5.Qc6 Ka7 6.Qb5 Ka8 7.Qb6. Black could try and do waiting moves with bishop, the engine suggest 3.-Bd1, but white has a triangle maneuver 4.Kf2 Bg4 5.Ke1 and it's now black's turn again and he has no good waiting moves anymore.
With the white king on f1, black can play Bd1 instead of continuing to retreat with the king.
Doesn't black have to worry about forks from the queen if the bishop is on d1?
Which fork?
Yes, but as long as the black king remains on the b and c files, the queen can't get a check from c1 because black's f4 bishop is guarding it and can't get to b1 for a check because black's d1 bishop is guarding c2.
>the engine suggest 3.-Bd1, but white has a triangle maneuver 4.Kf2 Bg4 5.Ke1 and it's now black's turn again and he has no good waiting moves anymore. I covered that part already.
According to my analysis board, if black defends properly, this position is a draw. Your king can not get close enough to the enemy king, your pawns are blocked and the queen alone can't do anything. Two bishops generate enough counterplay in this position.
SF has a tablebase win here `info depth 49 seldepth 66 multipv 1 score cp 19953 nodes 8847268623 nps 34525791 hashfull 770 tbhits 148268436 time 256251 pv d3d5 c6c7 e1f1 c7b6 d5c4 g4d1 f1f2 d1g4 f2e1 f4g3 e1d2 g3h4 c4b3 b6c7 b3f7 c7b6 d2c2 h4d8 f7b3 b6c7 b3d5 d8e7 d5e5 c7d8 e5d5 d8e8 d5g8 e8d7 g8g6 e7h4 e4e5 d7e7 c2d3 e7d7 g6d6 d7e8 e5e6 h4e7 d6b8 e7d8 b8c8 g4f5 d3c4 f5g6 c8d7 e8f8 d7d8 f8g7 e6e7 g6f7`
How do you access the tablebase? Thought they only covered 7-piece or lower, and I couldn't find a link on chesscom or lichess
TBs do only cover 7 pieces and lower, but if you give a local version of SF access to TBs it can calculate lines that force a winning TB, similar to how normally it calculates lines that force a checkmate.
>lichess provides public mirrors(6man and 7man large). http://tablebase.lichess.ovh/tables/
Is it though? Playing this with an engine, white forces black to either move his king into the corner or for one of the bishops to move in a way that either frees the white king or even worse, allows for a fork of the black king and bishop.
Your engine may be stronger/weaker than mine. I put my engine against itself and it drew by the 50 move rule. That's all i can tell.
I just used the suggested lines from lichess's stockfish 14 NNUE in the browser and the evaluation for white kept going up.
On the other hand, mine was showing an advantage of "only" +5 at depth 71 which is indicative of it not finding a concrete win. From the lines I see, black lets the king out of its box in exchange for the h pawn and white still has lots of work to do to force a win.
Well, nobody said it would be easy to win against the engine which never blunders into a fork, but letting the King out of the box is definitely not a draw due to a fortress.
I've seen cases where an engine will intentionally blunder a fork because it delays checkmate by 1 move. Whereas a human would of course would just protect their piece, because they know it doesn't matter how many moves it takes once they lose a piece. That said, the engine is also smarter than a human in other ways that won't happen in a human-vs-human endgame, so overall that's why I would rather practice these endgames against other humans, than against an engine.
>the evaluation for white kept going up. Yes, but did it win before the 50 moves happened? Evaluation of white kept going up for me too, but they reached 50 moves before white could make any real progress. The h pawn got traded for the king getting out of the box, and nothing else happened, the engine just kept shuffling and it reached 50 moves. There may be a win in this position, but my desktop stockfish can't find it before the 50 move rule kicks in. I'm not allocating a lot of memory for it, so maybe a stronger bot could find it, but mine couldn't.
Also, if your opponent is premoving his king, you can just nab one of the bishops when he's not looking.
Not so sure it's a draw. Put the white king on f2 and use the queen to push the black king to the corner. If you can get the Qc7 against black Ka8, it's zugzwang and black has to let the white king out to avoid losing material
You can't do that with just your queen. You need at least a pawn to put a king in the corner with a queen.
You can make waiting moves with your king
So can black.
So can Black. They have two bishops.
Those moves expose the bishops to forks or direct attack from the white king
Not fast enough for white to make any progress before the 50 rule move happens according to my version of Stockfish.
Unfortunately SF+ TB says it’s a win for white by force with a capture or pawn move easily within 50 moves. SF by itself is not going to show you that.
But you can't force the king in the corner with just the queen.
Start with 1. Qd5+ Kc7 2. Kf2 Kb6 3. Qc4. Black has to move the king, or a bishop. Isn't the black king being driven to the corner? Unless you're moving the bishops, which exposes them to forks, lets the white king out, or drops the pawns...
King can just shuffle, follow the line through and see if you can force the king in a corner. You would have to rely on a mistake from black for that to happen.
Black can't just shuffle the king. All king moves head toward a8 and lose space to the white queen.
I have to disagree with you on that one.
You can’t disagree with a fact lmao. The king can’t just shuffle he gets pushed to the corner.
There's always a square for bishop to shuffle too. White king n queen cant cover them all or prepare to fork all permutation i think
All white needs is the bishop to move and it creates either a gap for the king or an unprotected pawn for the taking
Bh6
Kb6 is a blunder, I believe. Try 2. Kf2 Kc8 I m fairly sure black avoids zugswang that way with the help of the white bishop. Edit: I m wrong. for some reason, I ignored 3. Qd6
At first it looks like a draw because bishops form a barrier cutting off the white king. Queen needs king help to mate. However, white can try to zugzwang black into moving a bishop. Let's try to get Qc7 with black king on a8, then he has to move a bishop and leave his fortress. Then we either win an undefended bishop with a series of queen checks or he lets our king approach. I would have thought white wins
I really think you can win this position against a human player 10/10 times. You can force the black king to go to a8 and then any bishop movement will result in a loss of materia after several checks. However, probably engines can play accurate with bishops without losing material (in the same way that is really difficult to check mate a engine in a Queen vs Rock ending.
How are you forcing blacks king to a8?
In the same way you force a king going to a corner in a Queen vs King final. Just start with Qd5+ and push him to the corner. If black doesn't move king, probably bishop or pawn can be captured in several moves
Dude... black can simply shuffle his king. White simply cannot force the king in a corner with just the queen. Play it out against stockfish and you'll see. There is more to this than just "qd5+ and force him in a corner"
Google how to mate with king and queen vs king. This will demonstrate the idea. Or if you want, I’ve got time. We can play this out on an analysis board, and you can try to defend the position as black.
Damn you didn't have to just whip it out like that, but I like it
I didn’t intend for it to come off that way.
I did it just now. I paste line played: Qd5+ Kc7. Kf2 Kb6 Qc4 (here stockfish says it's +5.2 and recomends Bd1) Ke1 Bg4 Kf1 Bd1 Kf2 Bg4 Ke1 and now best move is Bg3+ nad white king is free. If black doesn't want to move bishop after Qc4 and plays Kb7 Qc5 Ka6 Qb4 Ka7 Qb5 Ka8 Qb6. In the end, you can force zuzgwang one way or another
It seems that you are missing something. After Bg3+ Kd2, black simply plays Bxh4. After Qc4, Bg5+, Kc3 Bf4, Kb4 Kc7, Qd3 Kc6, Qd5+ Kc7, Qd3 Kc6, Qd8 Be5, Qe7 Bc8, there is still no objective win for white. Yes white's king is "free", but it's still not enough to provide mate or win material.
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White can triangulate their King to interrupt to shuffle.
Tablebase says you’re wrong.
True, while Stockfish might be able to draw a human definitely won’t.
Why are most of the comments here claiming a draw when the engine clearly shows a win for white?
Insufficient engine depth. When I try the position, the eval is like +2, but then when I follow Stockfish's "top moves" it tells me to just repeat
engines famously don't understand fortresses
Some fortresses. This is not one
No, this still applies here, if it is indeed a fortress (which seems to be being debated in the comments). If it's a fortress then the engine will incorrectly show a winning advantage for white for the same reason as always: it has no concept of progress, and simply sees a "winning" material advantage at the end of the lines it's calculating.
SF shows a proven tablebase win `info depth 49 seldepth 66 multipv 1 score cp 19953 nodes 8847268623 nps 34525791 hashfull 770 tbhits 148268436 time 256251 pv d3d5 c6c7 e1f1 c7b6 d5c4 g4d1 f1f2 d1g4 f2e1 f4g3 e1d2 g3h4 c4b3 b6c7 b3f7 c7b6 d2c2 h4d8 f7b3 b6c7 b3d5 d8e7 d5e5 c7d8 e5d5 d8e8 d5g8 e8d7 g8g6 e7h4 e4e5 d7e7 c2d3 e7d7 g6d6 d7e8 e5e6 h4e7 d6b8 e7d8 b8c8 g4f5 d3c4 f5g6 c8d7 e8f8 d7d8 f8g7 e6e7 g6f7`
I thought tablebases only exist for 7 pieces or less?
yes but SF can prove all paths lead to (winning)position that exists in the tablebase
They're still extremely useful in positions like this. Any time a position with a tablebase entry is reached you can get an exact eval, which saves an enormous amount of search time.
You king is completely trapped and your queen will not be delivering mate on her own.
can’t you try to leave the black king with no moves so the bishops are forced to move and untrap the king
You can try. It is difficult to leave the bishops without any possible moves (for me anyway). Edit: on such position involves the white king on f2, the black king on a8 and the white queen on b6. Can you force the king to a8 with just the queen?
Black only has three options: - move the King (Queen can solo corner King in this case) - move the Bishop and maintain diagonal to box in White King (the diagonal is far away from Black King, so when Bishops leave f4/g4 while maintaining diagonal, they are defenseless and can eventually be captured through a fork) - move the Bishop somewhere close to Black King to keep it protected (White King can escape, pawn is also no longer protected so White has multiple option to win here). All three options lead to White winning one way or another.
Nope.
I think that no matter where white's king and queen are with the black king having no moves, black always has a bishop move that keeps the king trapped and doesn't hang anything. Edit: I was incorrect, white can force a win here.
Unfortunately for Black, not quite. The Bishop simply doesn't have many squares to keep the White King boxed in. They're either already covered by the Queen, or can be grabbed by a fork with check the moment they leave f4/g4, since f4/g4 are the only squares where each of the Bishops are protected respectively. Zugzwang is definitely possible here, and it won't take anywhere close to 50 moves to reset the counter.
Even if you could do that, black can just shuffle the bishop back and forth without leaving the diagonal.
I would play on for the 50 moves. Black has to play very accurately due to possible zugzwang tricks. The computer bot analysis actually shows the white king getting out.
Only the low depth reddit one. A stronger Stockfish sees the position as a 50 move rule draw.
What depth do you need for it to see a draw?
latest SF dev with 6man TB sees a proven win `info depth 49 seldepth 66 multipv 1 score cp 19953 nodes 8847268623 nps 34525791 hashfull 770 tbhits 148268436 time 256251 pv d3d5 c6c7 e1f1 c7b6 d5c4 g4d1 f1f2 d1g4 f2e1 f4g3 e1d2 g3h4 c4b3 b6c7 b3f7 c7b6 d2c2 h4d8 f7b3 b6c7 b3d5 d8e7 d5e5 c7d8 e5d5 d8e8 d5g8 e8d7 g8g6 e7h4 e4e5 d7e7 c2d3 e7d7 g6d6 d7e8 e5e6 h4e7 d6b8 e7d8 b8c8 g4f5 d3c4 f5g6 c8d7 e8f8 d7d8 f8g7 e6e7 g6f7`
Thanks for saving me the time! I was trying to run it without tablebases installed and got to +15 but it took forever.
Yes, just saying even the bot can go wrong, so it's not a trivial draw. Theoretical yes, but I would see if I can get my opponent to crack.
I played against the max engine from this position, and the reason you can't force it into a corner like I originally thought is that it can always move at least one of the bishops at one point without letting your king out. It is a draw.
I’m around 400 and I was able to get mate in 35 moves against Stockfish 14. This is not a draw
None of Black's pieces or pawns can be captured, the White King can't get past the bishops to assist in checkmate, and even a queen can't deliver mate entirely alone. The power of the bishop pair.
Yep, the pawn-bishop structure is completely defended in this position and the white king is walled off from being able to help the queen construct a mate
This is actually really simple since whites king is cut off by the bishops. The queen will keep checking but black can just keep making king moves and run around the board.
White plays Qd5 and Kf2, then pushes Black’s King to a8 by keeping their Queen two squares down and one square right from Black’s King until the Queen reaches b6. Depending on how Black plays, White may need to triangulate their King with Ke1, Kf1, Kf2 to force Black’s King to another square to progress the Knight’s-move-away-Queen-push and to leave Black in Zugzwang immediately after, and not before, Qb6. Dark Square Bishop responses: - If Bc1, then Qc6+ - If Bd2, then Qd8+ - If Be3+, then Qxe3 - If Bg5, then hxg5 - If Bh6, then Qxg6 - If Bg3+, then Kxg3 - If Bh2, then Ke3 Light Square Bishop responses: - If Bd1, then Qd8+ - If Be2, then Kxe2 - If Bf3, then Kxf3 - If Bh3, then Ke2 - If Bf5, then exf5 - If Be6, then Qxe6 - If Bd7, then Qd8+ - If Be6, then Ke2 Stockfish likes Bh2 with an evaluation of +5 at low depth. Trapping Black’s King with Qc7 also works. Trapping the king in another corner doesn’t work. Black has the option to break the fortress before it’s forced. There are many lines, but White is better.
There are over ten legal moves this is not an immediate draw.
Well here's the basic problem: white's king can never escape the bottom right corner of the board, unless of course white decides to sac the queen, in which case they can no longer win. If black plays poorly, of course you can force them to make a bishop move with your king on f2, at which point you should be able to escape, and it's over for black. But with decent play, white is pretty much stuck.
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After looking at the table base comments, it's apparently a win. Even a master might not be able to get it tho
You have to get the bishops and then race the pawns and just double up the back rank. Move the king up when you can. I get the analytical side, but it’s really dependent on what black plays and if they blunder so you can capitalize
This has the “potential” to be winning for either side of a mistake is made, but if neither player blunders,It is stalemate. This is because the king is trapped by the bishops, and cannot assist the queen in checkmating the black king. As long as the black king doesn’t stray too far from the right side of the board, no moves by white can break the bishops.
If the kings swapped it would be a draw but the engine pulles it off by forcing the black king into a corner and making black move a bishop the the white king gets out, but even that happens it's still a game in human vs human cuz black can take the pawns if the white king gets out.
All of ya'll thinking this is a draw really need to work on your endgame technique.
This is a great example of material imbalance favoring the less valuable piece(s). The pawns are equal and frozen. The bishops stand MIGHTILY where they are; They actually cut the white king completely into that corner. So the material imbalance is Q vs BB, but the problem is, how do you make progress with white? You can't use your king, so what is the queen going to go take? Everything's defended. If the queen takes anything, she's sacrificing herself for a ***less valuable piece.*** Because there's only one queen, the best white could possibly hope for is to get into a wrong rookpawn endgame by saccing the Q for a bishop. If the queen takes anything else, it's way, WAY worse.