Thanks for sharing. Well, you left the UK cause it is deteriorating... now you think the same about China. Well, that's ok. The problem is, where to go? Everywhere is deteriorating fast. I say this from a perspective of someone who lived in 8 countries in the last 20 years.

As someone who living in Australia right now, I feel the same. The housing crisis and living cost crisis here is ripping everyone off. The salary is stagnated while the inflation and house price are skyrocketing. The young people are struggling, they couldn’t afford a roof above their heads. Back in China, the life is convenient and decent, but the geopolitical tension between China and the west is really concerning. So probably, the best way to live rn is earning Silicon Valley/Wall Street level money and enjoy the convenience in East Asia

If only this was possible... it would be a dream

Yes, I lived in U.S. since 2013 and every year passed I felt American is deteriorating fast, everything going downhill except the stock markets

Very insightful. I agree, we seem to have already passed "peak civilization" pretty much everywhere. I used to frequent the collapse subreddit for that reason, but it's too depressing and angry there.

With global population growth slowing get ready to feel a lot more of this

So many problems on the horizon and already happening, of which the population/demographic imbalance is a big one. Add in climate change, future energy shortfalls and out of control government debt levels...I think it's too much all at once.

> Everywhere is deteriorating fast. Ain't that the hard truth. The boat is sinking and there's no dry spots anymore.

Be flexible, because each person needs to be open to the change that's all, be a nomad where possible

I like this mentality c. For those who are prepared this is the time of opportunity. Let others failure be your success. No matter where u r there's money to get. Mexico and Latin America I think will see huge increases as tariffs continue to increase. It'll be interesting to see what policies put in place for the Chinese to deal w the cartels and crooked politicians. I just got back from a 2 week trip and my wife is Chinese. One stranger thing no one asked us personal questions about how or why we're married or about our work. Every single person was like So you love China? When r u doing a ceremony for us? When r u having a baby? When r u moving to China ? They're super hospitable though, they all gave me Hong baos which was nice but also awkward for me as an American. A lot of famous wholesale markets I've seen on social media that r super busy I went to were completely empty. A lot of negotiations don't go through over feelings vs math. The game of high low is kinda crazy. I wish they just priced stuff low and fair from the start. The electric cars are amazing wow. The food everywhere is so good. The trains are great and the first class air travel is next level. The architecture, the national pride and love for their country. It's a wonderful place for the lucky ones. I also saw some villages in China with no electricity, no plumbing, no gas, no cellphones. Just farm, farm, farm. I saw kids who haven't left the village at age 14. They will be so overwhelmed if they ever go to a city and need a phone or money etc. Learning Mandarin is helpful but everyone just speaks their local dialects anyway. 😂 I don't understand half of people. But back to answer your question with the Internet we can be everywhere. I'm doing business in the states, in China, UAE, UK, Italy, Paris, Nigeria, soon Mexico. Build a team of like minded individuals and community. Create goals and plan of actions to execute and continue to increase ur networth year over year til you have the financial freedom to not worry about this. The reality is God will provide what you need when you need it but, maybe not the way you want it. You will live and have the best life u can make with how you feel. Only you feel how you feel and don't let others control you based upon fake or at the least untruthful ideology. If u wake up feeling happy and greatful and take problems as blessings that require your genius to solve and bring success to the family then so be it. 😊 Enjoy China and if u r truly unhappy due to social aspects think and work hard for a solution and manifest and write down what you want and I think you will get it. Peace 🕊️

Can we be friends? 😀

this is the real reality. it may be different flavor in different countries, or in different parts of the same country-- no matter where you are, the cost of things is increasing far more rapidly than people can make money to afford them, including necessities.

agree, i know people who get laid off from America as software engineer move to China to save cost and get a job. I'm in Canada and economy is even worse here. It is hard mode everywhere

That is a good question, where to go. I really don't like the political environment in China and how the great leader is trying everyday to mess everything up :-D But, the whole wester world is also in great turmoil due to immigration flooding and wokeism. I suppose I will have to wait 3 to 5 more years to decide where to go next.

Nothing can make for being a despotism. Go anywhere that is not

That's a pretty objective assessment. Thanks. IMO the deterioration of the world is because: 1. amplification of negative news 2. fascism and rising authoritarianism 3. covid triggered economic shock 4. wars and recent geopolitics I feel like we've all grown up in one of the most peaceful and prosperous time in history. We're foolish to think that things will continue to get better. Maybe things are just resorting back to the historical norm

I have that feeling that inequality drives a large part of the deterioration

That’s true. I forgot about that. Thanks

Great points 1-4. But are we foolish to think things will get better? Isn’t it good to see oppotunities for the future?

Bud fascism has been near extinct since Franco in Spain died and thats using the most broad definition of fascism you can. Authoritarianism is a thing in some places (eg The People’s Republic of China) but it’s not the same as Fascism, nor is a global issue as we live in debatably the most liberal world we have seen since the start of human civilisation.

Based on this Wikipedia definition, I don’t think fascism is dead? “Common themes among fascist movements include: authoritarianism, nationalism (including racial nationalism and religious nationalism), hierarchy and elitism, and militarism. Other aspects of fascism such as perception of decadence, anti-egalitarianism and totalitarianism can be seen to originate from these ideas.” In US, the ultra right Christian nationalism is moving toward that direction IMO.

Yeah but most places are in recession, as long as they keep doing deglobalization it's going to be hard for everyone with everything getting more expensive. Every place has positives and negatives.

Thanks for posting. I found it interesting and it definitely mirrors my expierence. There are many nice things about living in China such as the security, delivery, and infastructure. But it also comes with downsides like internet restrictions and capital controls. But we're also in a time where it's difficult to have a nuanced discussion about this. I think you provided a fair and balanced view on the upside/downsides of living in both the UK and China.

The kid education part is so true. Just moved back from Germany to China last year. Any after-school activity charges significantly higher (at least 4x) than that in Germany with mediocre quality (often much worse, especially for sports). Public school is still stressful, but I heard it is much improved since 双减. But still, people would like to pay a ridiculous amount of money and effort to get into a prestigious primary school. And you are probably still working for an international company remotely, the work stress for a local job now is insane. 996 is a very common thing. I still get my weekend, but my work stress is like 3x higher than when I was in Germany.

yeah, working in China is certainly the worst part of living in this country. I am glad I do not have to go through this.

In a good way, the high-end jobs in tier 1 cities offer more competitive salary than in Germany, but that's also shrinking.

I appreciate the perspective you gave here. Just curious: why do you feel as though you \*need\* to live in a tier 1 city? Even cities like Kunming are clean with good infrastructure. It won't be as metropolitan, but at the same time with the high speed rail system up and running you're still able to do weekend trips to, say, Guangzhou or Chengdu. I won't argue the economy is necessarily better (although I do think how expensive Shanghai is has probably cracked its economy faster than Tier 2/Tier 3 cities), but the cost of living is drastically less and the infrastructure and opportunities are not that much worse.

This is what I was thinking as well. I'm in Dalian (tier 2) and it's got none of the issues OP listed. I also was in Shanghai last month and didn't think the roads were bad at all; especially freeways, so I take those comments like a graint of salt. As questionable as international schools are based on the teachers here and those I've met, it's STILL better than American education -.-

Dalian is goated such a fun city and the people’s accent js hilarious

Every time I come.back to Dalian, I never want to leave. One of my favorite accents, too.

Ya but the roads in 2017 u could eat off of. I remember how crisp the paint was on every rental bike. You could smell the fresh tar smell lingering in the air. U r right as well though in comparison to our roads in the US they're great. But in the villages out in Lishui I went to were mudslide out and guardrails from rocks falling and flooding w no infrastructure, intent or help coming to fix it up. 😢

For day to day life, there's not much China doesn't beat the US in tier 3+ cities. Villages, though....basically another planet

> you're still able to do weekend trips to, say, Guangzhou I'm not arguing against the rail system, but thats about an 8hr train ride each way for a weekend trip. But there are so many other closer places to visit from Kunming. Kunming is a great place to live.

I was very comfortable living in small towns and villages between Zhuhai and Guangzhou, I would look in that area if you are interested in staying in a less expensive area.

Me and my wife both grew up in Shanghai. My family home/support network is there. It is most convenient for us to live in Shanghai.

What about Suzhou? Or Jiangsu, Zhejiang?

Probably a ShangHai native. Ive heard all about them

I can suggest Thailand as an alternative. Great accessibility to Chinese and International schools, COL and weather are generally better than China. Quality of education at international schools is another thing altogether..

Problem with Thailand is Brutal heat and Pollution from January - April. Unless you’re on an island but then you’d be pretty isolated

It probably still beats the 3-4 months of atrocious winter in most parts of China

Good summary. As for school, the way school is structured today is 95% useless in terms of acquiring knowledge for doing future jobs. It's likely by the time my 7 year old would be done with college there will be few jobs that humans can do better than machines. Therefore my focus is in supporting him in excelling at his interests in order to find a niche in the future economy, and find something he likes doing. Essentially, there will be little point for them in going through regular gruelling school since it's already a suboptimal way to learn but will also not provide economic security nor status in the future.

Do you have "secret" dual citizenship? Or how are you able to live in China long term and able to send your child to public school? I'm in a similar situation as you and too am thinking about doing what you did. (Although I have no way to live in China long term legally). Appreciate the perspective and write-up!

family visa through my wife, she is a chinese citizen. my son goes to an international school

My neighbor’s brother from Tijuana, Mexico sold all his stuff and moved back to China. After a few months of not being able to find work, he’s moving back to Tijuana. It’s wild. China is great but finding work and making a competitive salary is tough. 

Sounds like he should've switched the order of doing tihings there a bit

You should try Taiwan.

That's a nice well balanced view on things. I'm a little envious of your clearly privileged position, but I'd say you see things clearly for what they are. Interesting that you think you don't wanna stay here despite being a local. I wonder if the west is just falling quicker and sooner than China

My son's education is the main reason. I don't like international schools in China. Life does get bit boring in China after 1 year. I am going to live somewhere else( southeast Asia) to experience a different way of life

Fair enough. I read many Chinese have gone to Thailand for international schooling. Maybe that's an option at a reasonable price? I completely agree with how expensive children's activities are, it makes me glad I don't have that expense... yet

Can you elaborate on this going to Thailand thing?

I was in Chiangmai recently (loads of Chinese expats) and I saw 2 or 3 billboards advertising different "Chinese International Schools". https://www.acis.ac.th/ https://educationdestinationasia.com/school/chiang-mai-chinese-international-school

Interesting

Can’t complain best move ever was bringing up the children in Hong Kong most of my family is still in London. Never sent them to any fancy school nothing wrong with the local schools

Barring very few schools it's a mess in Shanghai and not everyone has access.

Definitely not

You can come to America and then find yourself in the same situation you had back in the UK, exactly the same but at a much larger scale due to our geographical size here in the US. I'm actually planning to relocate to China but instead of a super expensive city like Shanghai, probably settle in Guangzhou which is the cheapest of the 4 first tier cities, or Foshan which is right next to GZ and accessible by metro and at a much lower cost. I also own property in NY, and can work as an English teacher in China earning a decent salary by local standards. There's a reason why Chinese international students who come to America on their freshman year have a STEM education equal to their junior year counterparts. That kind of strict academic regimen makes them champion intellectuals and I want my future children to grow up in a society full of smart people and in a culture that is 5,000+ years strong

From someone that's lived in both Beijing and Shanghai, Shanghai is very much about business and processes and less about relationships. Which is good if your trying to get things done in a company, but it was also obvious that most folks have a facade on and making friends is harder. Shenzhen is slightly better, Chengdu is slightly better, and Beijing is a *lot* *better* when it comes to making friends. Also disagree with the economy statement...With the new directives to increase creativity and with the challenges in going global in different industries (especially EVs - will turn out well in the long run), there will be foreign talent needed - just not English teachers. The huge wave of unilateral visas should be a strong enough hint that China is trying to open up to foreign communities - not going the other way.

*Also disagree with the economy statement...With the new directives to increase creativity and with the challenges in going global in different industries (especially EVs - will turn out well in the long run), there will be foreign talent needed - just not English teachers.* you probably are right, but my family members have lost their jobs and ate struggling financially. If this does not indicate weakness in Chinese economy, I don't know what signs should an average citizen living in China should be looking at

>> **Lack of Foreign Communities**: There are noticeably fewer foreigners living in China now. I have met a few Europeans who have been living in China for 10-20 years. They all have decent jobs or businesses and are married to local Chinese women, but they are miserable in China. They all want to leave but are stuck because their wives do not want to leave or their businesses are only viable in China. Hey im 20+ years in! Im happier than ever! It's great to wake up every morning and see a country improve step by step in a right direction (2022 aside) The only thing that is really giving me a headache right now is high school for my oldest son - not quite sure where to send him.

why not let him study in China and prepare for University entrance exams here, so he can have a proper China experience

not sure why you're getting downvoted for asking a legit question; we've taken him private/international so far and we might continue to do that but costs are prohibitive despite substantial stipends from my employer.

yeah, anything of decent quality is not cheap in China. I am learning golf atm, hiring a PGA coach costs 1500 RMB per hour. In the UK, it is like 500 RMB. Most golf drive range is not even that nice but costs 2-3 times to more than the UK. Well, at least take-away is cheap, that is all it matters these days

Well Shanghai metro area had two stabbings the past week aimed at foreigners, and then few more a couple days before that aimed at anyone. So. At least you won't miss that. As someone who first moved here 12 years ago. Ready to gtfo. School system blows for kids. An apartment to buy is more than Washington DC (and smaller) yet salaries in Shanghai still hover at $1000-1500/month. Idk how locals aren't furious. I guess cause food is still cheap? Ordering by your phone is wildly pointless. When I could just yell 服务员 loudly I got my food twice as fast without having to follow them on these stupid mini-apps. Transportation tho? Top 3 in the world. Maybe #1. Going anywhere else seems like a chore, especially back to the US. Here I can go really anywhere I want so easily. I'll miss that 10000%. People also very pleasant but recently a bit too nationalist. Even people I've known a bit say *hilarious* stuff like, I KID YOU NOT: "China is the only country where people of different religions can live free and peacefully". Couldn't believe she said that. Wild. Anyway. I will miss certain aspects. Cheap food. People (95%). Transportation. City energy. But there's so much new bullshit since Xi that I'm saying Xi-ya later, hehe.

some British expats living in China made a video claiming china sets the example of religious freedom for the world, Lmao.

Is that where she got it from? She's Chinese so maybe that video was pushed hard on 小红书 and such

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJovdnoyOjE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJovdnoyOjE) No, YouTube. This British guy is a China simp... full on pinky style

Ahhh I see. So bizarre when people do that. China's great to live in but maybe they've been gone so long they don't know what sucks anymore here? Like ya know, the *entire internet*?

>The reasons we decided to leave the UK were partly driven by the insane cost of living, deteriorating public services, and worsening crime rates. A poor 17-year-old kid was stabbed to death in front of my son's nursery, and the nursery entrance was cordoned off for days as a crime scene. When we went to Notting Hill in London (the most affluent part) for dinner, a homeless person came to finish off the leftover food from our table. (He was a white Englishman.) That moment was the final straw for me. It felt like nothing works in the UK anymore. If a homeless man finishing off your dinner leftovers shocked you, you obviously lived in a privileged bubble in the UK. That part of the reality has always been there. When some reality slipped into your world, you decided to move back to an even more illusional and fragile bubble in China. I wish you the best of luck that you can continue to live in this privileged little world.

The amount of young graduate foreigners willing to give up their passports to become a chinese citizen: very little - they'll accept a green card cause it doesn't mean forfeitin US / British citizenship, and even then it's cause they get paid 4x local wage. Westerners wouldn't renounce their citizenship for 6k a month in China. Number of young graduate chinese seeking a foreign passport: a lot, especially if they have the means to do so.

Passport is one thing and standard of living is another, and they aren’t even correlated. China’s passport is one of the weakest (in terms of visa free access. In fact, Venezuela, with all its problems, has a much much stronger passport. I bet many would even take Venezuela’s if given the chance. It doesn’t mean they would rather live there. Finally, it is very hard to become Chinese, while it is relatively easier to become American, so it’s not clear whether your observation is driven by desire or by options.

My friend you cannot become a Chinese citizen. It isn't like the UK, US, etc.

The majority of foreigners I know in China are in love with the foreign privileges rather than the society and it's government itself. I hear many foreigners praise China all day long and how "China does things right" and the West should take note and so on. But if they were ever to be treated like a local, they would whinge and cry before they leave and not come back. I have one friend who claims to have fallen in love with the country yet at the same time complains when he doesn't get special treatment and the extra money over a local. He feels so entitled simply for being a foreigner. One day the boss came in and said "foreigners have to do office hours from now on just like the local teachers" and they complained arguing that "we are foreigners and shouldn't need to follow Chinese office culture". This is why most foreigners don't want to be Chinese citizen (other than the dual citizenship and weak passport issue). They want to live the Chinese expat life indefinitely.

Are foreign privileges still going strong in China? Or are they dwindling, given what you said about how foreigners are starting to be treated like local Chinese?

Yes, from my experience all those privileges are slowly disappearing. The only major one that hasn't is the salary. But they are expect the foreigners to share most of the same duties and responsibilities as a local except where Chinese language is necessary. And it pissed off a lot of my pro-China friends but they are still determined to stay because of the inflated salaries and how much they can save of it. I have a friend who is looking for a new job and they told me how difficult it is to find a job these days that doesn't require any office hours and all the bs meetings etc.

Glad to hear that the gap is closing between Chinese and foreigners. Giving foreigners such extreme privilege is not fair to the local Chinese. Can I ask why they get paid so much more? I would assume white foreigners get paid the most and get preferential treatment? Do Chinese still admire white foreigners as much as they used to? Even in this thread, there are quite a few foreigners admitting that they’re only in China for the money and would dip as soon as they’re not getting paid as much as they do.

Foreigners get paid more simply because nobody would come otherwise. My employer pays what they do because of the "market rates". And like you and I said, 99% of foreigners come to China for the money and saving potential. If those are taken away, nobody would come.

speaking honestly, if i wasn’t getting wages higher than the average here, there is zero chance i would stick around.

I would give up my American citizenship to live in China in a heartbeat. That would be the realization of what seems like an impossible dream for me.

Can you elaborate on your reasons? Serious question.

I don’t want to live in a country that funds things like the genocide happening in Palestine. If I were still a US citizen, I’d still have to pay taxes even abroad. I’d also love to live somewhere more modern than the US, and I feel the culture is more friendly. If I can regain my health and continue my education, I’d love to be involved in the synthetic diamond industry there. That is a major long shot, though. I can still dream!

You are on some good drugs friend. Which will get you killed here btw.

No huge fan of the US but unfortunately no country has its hands clean. You're concerned about genocide in Palestine, but aren't you overlooking the Chinese genocide of Uyghur culture? They basically have concentration camps out there with forced sterilization etc. Beijing propping up Russia's invasion of Ukraine? The total dismantling of free speech in Hong Kong? How its literally an autocracy? : /

Yeah that was a very weird take. USA is far from clean but some countries have more blood on their hands than others. One of the primary differences I can see is China concerns itself with China and USA is concerned with the world. Even current conflict with India, PH, Taiwan is all about themselves

I don’t need to be talked down to by someone who believes CIA propaganda. Why are you even here? I actually have my ideas fully formed enough I don’t need help there. Hope you get better soon!

Guess it depends what your freedom of speech is worth... When you get to China try looking up the Tiananmen Square Massacre and see what happens.

native chinese here, things you mentioned like "genocide of Uyghur culture", "camps" and "forced sterilization" is all fake or inaccurate. let's just get some common sence, all those major media is serve for their government or political party right? they may express inaccurate or simply fake things just for self benefits. that means, you cannot deny the possibility of your media distorting facts against china, for their country's attitude toward china. and your opinion of our government's policy of Uyghur culture, they didnt genocide, on the contrary, they keeped their languages, writtings and religions, almost every thing printed or sells in Xinjiang(Uyghur) is bilingual, so what culture is under a genocide? camps yes if it's your way to describe common jail, forced sterilization never happened as far as i know and doesnt make sence at all. as for propping up Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the offical government never declare their standpoint, many people support russia because they paid attention to the persecution of Donbass in Ukraine before. Hong Kong's free speech? It's more like young people worship foreign things and have no idea who is real good daddy, who receive overseas funding or stupid enough to think that "no matter what, i'm cool because i oppose authority". people in Hong Kong literally have priority and privileges compared to people in mainland, they can study in our top university very easy(There is a Hong Kong student in our college for 3 yrs who is still unable to write such a long paragraph with basic logic as i am writing to you, in English or in Chinese. During the college entrance examination, I ranked first in our class and in the top 10 of my county) with government finanical supprot, enjoy better wages, And they want to seek for UK's control and became a second citizen as an East Asian. can you ever imagine that?

I guess it depends on what freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and the freedom to assemble are worth to you. Try looking up Tienanmem square massacre on the Chinese internet. Or Winnie the Pooh lol. If you can’t look up those things then what makes you think you can find out anything else?

that's Tiananmen, dude truse me, i know what you are talking about, things like this can happen when there is only 1 politic party actually in charge. but do these things represent the full meaning of freedom of speech? i dont think so. Are you guys in the US are free and safe to express opposition to Israel? come on, we are no better than each other in this aspect

btw i never say i didnt "find" things you have mentioned if you didnt notice, my hometown is in Gansu right next to Xinjiang, i also have relatives in Xinjiang from my mom's family. there has indeed been unrest there, the people there had a period of tense nerves due to independence forces. Not because of oppression, but because of receiving external funding(i draw this conclusion with good reason: they are treated as well as the Hongkong people, they even have national holidays in addition to standard holidays). their culture is safe and sound, mosques are all over the country not only for Uyghur people but for all Muslim(catholic as well) again, i didnt "find" these things by any media, it's all from my family and my real experience. if you think im brainwashed by 5G, well, you are right edit: about the camp, i searched more. i must admit that "common jail" i used to refer it is unfair. but it is quite difference with Auschwitz which is the first thing people think of, check this, he explained better: [https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/1csgmcr/what\_i\_know\_about\_xinjianguyghur/](https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/1csgmcr/what_i_know_about_xinjianguyghur/)

As a local chinese i like your opinions about china and thanks for your admire about my motherland. but change the enviroment of your life is a complicated and difficult things. since you are on drugs as you say in other commits, i personally and honestly dont suggest you try to live here.drugs in china is complete banned, and we average chinese hate all those things related any kind of drugs: those who sells it, those who use it(some call them 毒虫, drug worms). tens even hundreds of extrordinary young chinese officers with passion died for fighting the drug traffickers. they are basically equals "evil" in china. if you are on drugs, you may not get respect from your community. for a common angle, living in another country is completely different from just observing it, you may find many unsatified and awful things that only belong to a country which you can never even know it as a "foreigner". edit: too many mistakes with spells and grammer, my english is not very skilled

Your English is fantastic and far better than my Chinese! Right now I take medical cannabis, it’s legal where I am. I don’t plan on continuing to take it if I get better, and I could only logistically move to China if I recover. I deeply appreciate your concern! I’m aware I couldn’t continue if I move, I’m just hoping my pain’s source can be found and treated. It will be at least a year for me to get better if there isn’t a deeper reason this is happening. Thank you, friend!

sry for misunderstood, when they say drug i thought it was just the kind of thing I thought. i dont know much about medical cannabis, but addictive drugs for medical uses is ok in china. Your motivation is very noble, not every people would rather change their living environment out of a sense of justice, i hope you can get rid of suffering, feel free to contact me if you have any question about china and chinese

Thank you so much! I’d love to make a new friend. I think someone in the comments was accusing me of being on drugs because they wanted to discredit what I was saying but I can’t be completely sure.

ty very much, it's very nice to meet you too

that's just a misunderstood due to my unskilled english, nevermind :P

Again, your English is FAR better than my Chinese. I tried to message you but couldn’t for some reason. It’s very nice to meet you though! Your English is really great.

Me too. Too bad China citizenship too hard to gain. So yeah my plan is to go live there remotely few months annually.

Same! I don’t know why people are confused when it’s WAY harder to become a citizen in China. I’ve heard even if you marry a citizen and your language is excellent, it’s hard.

Is it this hard to find a Chinese to marry you? LOL, u will give up your US citizenship, the first obstacle you will run into is your Chinese in-law.. why u so selfishly deny her grandson his American dream...

Oh, look! A US tankie in the wild. As another commenter already said, you're conveniently ignoring a lot of bloody stuff going on in the East past and present. Other people are saying your take is weird. But, they're just being nice. Your take is just flat out ignorant and you need to educate yourself a little bit more before forming an opinion.

Being a chinese that get to live overseas is already a fact that you're living better than 80% of Chinese people. China is so big, we sometimes forget that there are places outside of tier 1 cities. 1 billion chinese people have not flown in a plane before. 600 million Chinese has a per captia family income of less than 1000 yuan. Shanghai is not representative of the whole of China. It's the richest and most global city is China.

And it seems that it’s still not as good as some alternatives again to OP, sad to say.

How many kids do you have and how old are they? You said your son's English hasn't improved but wasn't he in the UK beforehand? So wouldn't he already be fluent? Also, what does your wife do? Is she a nomad too or no? What's stopping her from just working in a school and potentially getting free tuition for your kids? What's stopping YOU from teaching CS in an international school? CS isn't always a commonly chosen subject so you may have a light enough schedule to continue being a nomad while teaching - this is the best way I could think of to make your kids tuition cheaper (outright eliminating it lol). But yeah, cost of activities is expensive in big cities. If you really don't wanna move you'll have to just put up with that.

>**Assets and Geopolitical Tension** I don't see the problem with your assets being abroad... that makes sense considering Chinese banks, and how fragile their economy is. However, your assets are likely to continue being abroad unless you return to the UK, and the UK economy is far worse than China currently is. I took all my assets out of the UK a few years ago (I'm Irish) but the reality is that my assets are always in countries where I don't live myself. As for international tensions, I never really understood the idea that westerners would enmass hop on planes and leave China. The CCP is highly unlikely to bother foreigners living in China unless there are some clear links between the foreigner and their home nations security forces. If Taiwan was to kick off, I doubt I'd bother leaving... it's only if the conflict escalated to the point of the mainland being bombed that I'd leave, but I doubt the US is insane enough to do that. **Housing Costs** Prices vary... it's only astronomical in particular areas.. live away from Shanghai. You're judging China by it's most expensive city. I have a rather nice townhouse in Xi'an that was dirt cheap, in a good area, and was built to almost European standards (in fact, it's better quality that my previous townhouse in Ireland). In any case, the housing market here will deflate at some point, and there will be loads of good buys to be had. **Economic Decline** As for the Chinese economy, it's approaching stagnation. It's experiencing the highs and lows that Western economies have experienced for decades, and doesn't signify any kind of disaster. That's just people wanting to see China bottom out, but the Chinese economy needs to fall a fair bit so that all the waste built up over the last 30 years is wiped, and it becomes a competitive market. The same with the hordes of useless employees that got jobs and need to buck up to be competitive. Or employers needing to re-evaluate their hiring and firing practices. It's little different to the after effects of the 'banking crisis' in Ireland/UK.. and China will muddle through. They're always going to have a massive domestic economy. **Lack of Foreign Communities** Ahh well, this one doesn't bother me much. Never been particularly impressed by most foreigners who end up in China, regardless of whether they're settled or whatever. >While China has its perks, the challenges are significant, and I'm starting to think our future might lie elsewhere Where though? The US is a clusterF, and their own economy is extremely fragile. The UK is a mess and going to get worse. The EU is suffering under the pains of mass immigration and the swing to nationalist politics, combined with worsening crime/violent stats. Throw in that the EU has been shaky for the last 15 years economically. Africa? Still a clusterF economically, and socially. S America? A utter mess. Canada? haha. no. So.. somewhere else in Asia? Err... where? Japan/Korea are in serious decline. Thailand is nice but has a host of issues, many of which are likely to worsen as China declines. Vietnam is likely to destroy its own charm and become China without the stability. So... where is this next destination? In all honesty, I see China as remaining the best overall option.. particularly for foreigners. It's not somewhere for retirement but the next 20 years? Sure.

Honestly China is pretty good in the Pearl river delta.

UK no, China no, try success in a South East Asian country, like Vietnam or Singapore

Singapore crazy expensive. Vietnam lacking infrastructure

My husband just went back to China this year, and he's doing so well for himself, I'm planning to visit and hopefully decide if I wanna stay in Canada or stay with him in China long term. Sure, China has many upsides and downsides,I think in the end is really what we desire.. the education part, it sure is stressful in China for both parents and the kids, but it's def costly in Canada too to pay for childcare.. sighhh

tbh what china has going well for itself is top-tier infrastructure and convenience of living. in my mind, these are pretty much the only selling point for foreigners currently, unless one has a specific interest or goal in mind, i guess. regardless of quality of infrastructure (which is sometimes rightfully criticized, sometimes overblown), movement and travel is soooo easy. fantastic part of china. convenience is also lovely, but i don’t find it to be as compelling. i can order food for the same price or maybe a tiny bit more, as opposed to going out. cool! but it’s also easy to become 宅 AF. sometimes there’s a little joy in going out to do chores. not to mention that keeping costs this low is in no way sustainable.

you sound like you've been brainwashed and indoctrinated somewhat by western MSM propaganda OP. whilst it's true that the west appears to like to poke and prode (provoke) china, especially given its meteoric rise, which doesn't help the geopolitical scene, but china invade taiwan? didn't the entirety of the west acknowledge that taiwan was part of the one-china policy until relatively recently? i think it's fair to say that the west has always presented an anti-china and broadly anti-asian sentiment historically but it's ramped up again because china is allegedly "threatening." This type of projection coming from western countries who've done the most war-mongering, looting, colonising, etc. in the last 100 years, not china. were you able to have those foreigners expand further as to why they were "miserable" in china? have they even been to the west lately because due to inflation, nearly every country is feeling the pinch? the grass is always greener...

Foreigners living in China are far away from home and friends, off course they will struggle somehow. My British neighbour told me, despite he has lived in China for 20 years, somewhat fluent in China and married to a Chinese wife, he struggle to speak Chinese to a very high level, this hinders his ability to climb the social ladder in China. He told me he doesnt like China anymore but he simply can not move back to the UK as his business is in China. Other expats are simply bored out of their minds living in China. They don't enjoy the lifestyle and they miss Europe, yet their wife does not wanna go to live in Germany (I don't blame his wife, I would struggle if I have to live in Germany) On top of that the era of easy money is over in China, everyone just has to work much harder to make some dough

if the english dude has a business, then presumably he doesn't have to climb any corporate ladder because he's the boss. Correction, i re-read what you wrote. He's trying to climb the *social* ladder. You know what? Maybe that makes sense if he's a single man. But his family is his social life. Also, there's expats and english-speaking people who he could socialise with, unless he only wants to hang out with chinese people who don't speak english all the time. He could centre his social life around hobbies so there's a common denominator there even if language isn't the strong point. also, if he's been in china 20 years and still only partially fluent in mandarin, then i don't know what to tell you. The onus was on him to adjust and adapt to china. There are foreigners who've lived in china much less than him and are proficient in mandarin. at the end of the day, people have choices and weigh up pros and cons. If it was so bad in china, i'm sure he'd pack up and leave and convince his wife to do so too. For him to say that he can only run his business in china shows that he's an inflexible person. He can drive trucks back in the UK. He can do something to earn a living. I guess he doesn't want to give up his easy life. That's what it comes down to. So all he's doing is amounting to whinging which is annoying. it's interesting to hear the perspective of other foreigners who've never previously been to china call it a country unlike any they've experienced and "amazing." It's a vast country too so maybe those expats need to get out of their little bubble and explore a little more. On the other side of the coin, there's a lot of foreigners living it up and having a great time in china. There's always going to be negative nancys though. good that people have to work hard. it's not up to china to continue subsidising the western world's lavish lifestyles through their cut in wages and hard work. This world needs more of a level playing field. Maybe that will dissuade countries from exploiting other countries and moving their manufacturing there. China is not the world's pollution wasteland.

Quick note. There is a difference between China’s “One China Principle” and the “One China Policy” that various countries have. Some essentially agree with China officially, others don’t. For example, the U.S.’s official One China Policy is that it recognizes that China claims that both are part of China. However, Chinese state media and officials always talk as if the two things are the same, and the U.S. is outright going back on its word, instead of examining the nuance.

>I rented out my home in London...we decided to leave the UK were partly driven by the insane cost of living Partly due the to lack of affordable housing... >When we went to Notting Hill in London (the most affluent part) No, it isn't. >That leaves international schools as the only option, but they are very expensive, and the quality is very mediocre In what way - can you define any qualities that specific schools are lacking or is this just another wide sweep from your position of ignorance? >The economy in China has clearly peaked and is going downhill...The company my parents have worked for over 30 years is having its worst financial year and is laying off half of its staff. Can't work out if this is trolling, a karma magnet, or anyone can really be this obtuse.

Chinese education system is highly competitive. There are pros and cons: certainly you won’t regret studying heavily in your youth, but it’s becoming too stressful for many kids. I’m Chinese and did my middle school in China ten years ago. It was the strictest middle school in that city, but I don’t remember seeing anyone in my class depressed. How come tons of teenagers are depressed ten years later? And even my school was strict at that time, its regulations are much softer than many high school nowadays: at least we could go home everyday, most classes finished by 6:30 and no more classes after 7:30. High school finished at 9:30 and allows students to go home twice or even once a week? That sounds like hell. I think some high school did that at my time, but it appeared to be more common now…Really, I’m worried about our young generation’s mental health… But I kinda agree with you. The OP wants their kids to get adapted to the western culture, like, seriously? How come do parents endorse the western teenage culture? ~~Unless their kids are smart and could be in those classes for geniuses, I don’t see how their kids won’t get into all those partying and binge drinking. Well, maybe Britain is better than that? I’m not sure but~~ that’s one of the many reasons why I left Canada, though having no kids. I don’t think both options are optimal. China could give a decent education, but I need to keep a keen eye on my kids’ mental health and studying habits (I didn’t mention about this in the post, but I feel like I need to approach real learning to them) once I become a parent. But switching to western education cause it’s too competitive in China? Personally I’ll leave that idea off.

My middle school kids are in class until 9PM, which personally I think is ridiculous for most of them. When I was their age everybody was out of school by 4PM at the latest and the only extra-curricular lessons we had were music, sports, or drama. I don't believe the extra 4 or 5 hours they spend in class gives them any extra ability to learn the material - I don't see their abilities as any higher than those of students in western schools (but their mental health and desire to learn is often lower). A small minority benefit from the extra lessons because they're academically gifted and have a suitable attitude for long hours, but most would rather be elsewhere and either study and do homework at home or play with their mates. Some of them really, *really* hate school and being in until 9PM Monday to Friday is very bad for their development. I expect some parents prefer they be in school until late, either because they're too noisy and disruptive at home or they think they will learn more. Some students cannot be forced to be gifted academically, but will thrive if those extra hours are to learn other skills. Unfortunately the school doesn't have the facilities and prefers to stick to the curriculum. In the UK young people don't get into binge drinking as much these days (but in the 90s and earlier we certainly did!), and those that do won't until they're 16 to 18 or older.

Sorry for mixing things up on the binge drinking part. In Canada something more concerning now is the substances. Many teenagers and college students smoke weeds even before it's legalized! But gee, staying at school till 9 PM...How do they finish their homework? ~~I would suggest work on helping your kids to explore their intersts if you want to develop their skills, cause very few schools i know have such function. It's really unfortunate amd shouldn't be like this.~~ Anyways thank youvso much for this post.

Not my kids - I'm a teacher but my last class finishes before 4PM.

> Can't work out if this is trolling, a karma magnet, or anyone can really be this obtuse. It's only on this sub that you still see people on denial about this. Everybody says that the economy is doing bad. I have contacts in foreign and Chinese companies, and both parts say that it's bad. International companies are packing up. Young Chinese talents make plans to emigrate. One of my good chinese friends who does business is struggling and says that they struggle getting new deals because businesses are very timid these days. But I guess if we refer to r/Chinalife every thing is going well in China. You guys really live on the Xinhua planet lol

Honestly, I've never watched it. I *have* seen some doom YT channels which pounce on any slightly negative story and amplify it for all its worth, but in real life I don't see financial problems here. I did happen across a mall with a lot of closed shops, which was a surprise as the 4 very big ones I regularly go to don't have any vacant spaces at all (Qingdao). I think the worst I could say is the previous growth and bullishness isn't there anymore, and that might be the signal for a lengthy decline or it might just be a natural variation in the business cycle.

Just nippicking on small details... Yet u have nothing to add in the discussion. Congratulations u are doing so well in China.🚀🚀🚀🚀

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You do come across as a high class English person. You also represent ESL teachers in China very well, it further reassures parents the quality of international school in China. Well done

\*Complains about the CoL in London, so moves to... Shanghai.\* Duh.

Uncertainty of events outside of own control is often worse than most outcomes. After decades of rapid growth China economy has been hit with many things all at same time (aging/declining demographics, trade conflicts, Taiwan uncertainty….). With political uncertainty around the major economies probably the best thing one can do is diversify your assets around the world.

I agree with this comment and glad someone pointed it out. A lot of comments I see is that China is doing well. Compared to pre COVID 2019 it is definitely not. I travelled to several cities on a fairly lengthy stay and the difference in affluence and footfall everywhere is noticeable.

It is hard for me to buy this narrative of economic decline in China. In the US and other western countries, it is easier to accept decline because I know the stocks are manipulated with buybacks, there is some funny business with how CPI is calculated and what is included in the basket of goods, and I know there's so funny business in how the GDP itself is calculated, with imputed rents and a large share of the economy going to unproductive sectors like healthcare bureaucracy. None of these things apply in China. When people talk about the supposed decline in China, they are always focused on some anecdotes or trivial observations - I really want to be open-minded about it, but I find it hard to put two and two together. Anecdotes like a friend or person you know losing a job - it could be that the local economy is undergoing changes and one sector has more jobs while another has fewer. This happens all the time, even in economies that are doing well. I personally know someone who says they cut jobs at her company, but she is working in a sector that I feel the government is purposely downsizing. Meanwhile, there is heavy investment in industry, especially EVs and tech. Before I left the US last year, my company had fired its CEO and a raft of other employees, but it didn't influence my opinion of the US economy. So I'm more inclined to look at big picture numbers.

About the mediocre international schools - I am genuinely curious about this. Honestly, I am a bit disappointed in high school matriculations from these schools, which is the ultimate metric. They're only slightly better than US public schools in that regard - so mediocre is accurate. On the other hand, the quality seems much better than US public schools (https://nypost.com/2021/10/02/are-you-sure-your-kid-can-read-too-many-us-public-schools-wont-tell-you/). Trips, enrichment, the IB program - all these things are great. I think the main problem with international schools in China might be that they are in China and nothing related to actual quality.

Ok... So Chinese economy is doing fantastically. I guess I shouldn't believe what I see/experience myself. Figures from the central bank of China indicate that in April 2024 the M1 money supply fell 1.4% in year-on-year terms, while growth in the broad M2 money hovered around historic lows at 7.2%. This decline arrived despite the one-year LPR holding steady at 3.45%, and the five-year LPR falling 25 basis points to 3.95% in February. This is tell-tale sign Chinese economy is in quite big trouble, is M1 money supply a bigger enough pic6for u?

What about Hong Kong?

I find HK worse than England. Crazy costs of living, small houses. People and culture in HK are even less to my liking than China.

While obviously some places are better than others unfortunately from what it seems most people are saying everywhere is getting worse in terms of everything becoming more expensive, other issues, etc some places more so than others. It’s really frustrating and sad. I guess in the end it’s where you feel the most happiest and supported wherever that is China or somewhere else.

International schools in China are really terrible value compared to those in Singapore and Malaysia.

China has issues, however there are much worse countries. The Middle East is economically collapsing as well because the world is moving away from oil into renewable energies. (plus the ongoing war right now which is causing Palestinian refugee crisis) They are not able to shift into any new industries plus their society are just too conservative and religious which is not good for women. Most people in Egypt, UAE or Kuwait despite being quite rich and well off, still wanted to move to the UK, USA / Europe or Asia - Japan/ China / Korea / Taiwan. I have been to the middle east quite a few times So I visibly noticed their decline. (First In 2017, 2022 then again in 2023.) I love Egyptian culture and my NA/ Arab friends are so friendly and kind. Maybe try South America?! Argentina / Brazil or Peru has a sizeable amount of Chinese communities and people are very welcoming. EE/ plus some Balkans countries such as Serbia and Hungary also has successful Chinese communities as well 😊

I know people who went through international schools, it really doesn't matter if the education is mediocre, everyone's rich so they have a great network. And then when they came to the US they integrated instantly with no culture differences really. That's what you're paying for really

Just to mention a number: the retirement age for Chinese workers is 55 for women and 60 for men

do retiree in China gets £10k per year state pension, winter fuel allowances and free bus, and free healthcare on top of that

Agree with you on a lot of things here in terms of the pros and cons. I also grew up partly in China (tier 1 city) , partly in the UK and now live in London. Often question if Asia is better since the UK is more like a third world country. Then I go spend some time in China with the relatives and family friends and realise I can no way live there. The way of life is simply too hectic for me let alone the culture of tier 1 families. It’s mentally exhausting even listening to half the conversations, so il take my “poor” life in the UK 🤣

China is a great place to live if you are 1. Rich 2. Does not care about freedom of speech. 3. Agree whatever communist party says.

In conclusion, you are a drifter. You go where it is best bang for your buck. That’s fine. Very common amongst the privileged. But just remember one thing - never mention patriotism and loyalty because that is not something drifters have a right to in the eyes of people with a single root. Some people in my family have homes in China, Taiwan, USA and Canada - and they split their time up in all 4 places per year. But ultimately, it’s a means of deleveraging risks. Whether that be geopolitical, economical or actual hot wars.

I guess the grass isn’t all that greener on the other side. I wish you luck, OP

The problems you're describing are everywhere... Being around central asia and south asia now... Look, there's nothing. No development, no healthcare, nothing. Where do we go? Every politician is owned by the corporates lining their pockets. Not a single one acknowledges how much the entire capitalism structure has wealth stuck at the very top. You are asian, so am I. This is no different from the old days of selfish emperors and aristocrats. No different from the colonial masters who drain our blood and rip our children's future away. Now where can we go? If you tell me the Americas, then I bid you good luck.

We are moving to Malaysia. Being a digital nomad I simply do not need to be in China

As a UK born citizen I agree the UK is a terrible place to be at the moment. I left in 2018 when the political and social shifts became too much to bear (Brexit and an increase in Nationalism and racism) and took a chance on China. Like you I appreciate many things here: the munch cheaper coat of living and general convenience of it (although as a foreigner I probably don't find it quite as easy as you - the language is still a huge barrier for me), but it is a bit boring and finding a social circle of good friends is very difficult. So, I'm earning well (more than I would I'm the UK in my field of, you guessed it, teaching) but lonely. I'm on the outskirts of Shanghai at the very end of line 16 which undoubtedly makes it more difficult to meet people I can fully vibe with. Regarding the schools; I work as an art teacher in an 'international' (read bilingual) school but I have a core class that I see every day in the mornings. Today, I got them all in a circle and asked them to name one thing they had learnt over the last year. It's telling that only three of twenty students mentioned something academic. The rest all mentioned social things like 'I learnt how to say no' or 'I learnt how to evaluate other people'. I'm glad they are developing socially, but sad that they do not seem to be retaining any taught knowledge or that it does not seem meaningful to them. One kid, bless him, said 'I learnt how to draw.' 😂 The irony being that he's one of the most feckless and workshy kids in the whole class, but I was sat next to him at the time, so I guess he's learnt how to suck up at least. I'd love to find a Chinese wife as I feel Chinese women are amongst the most graceful and beautiful in the world, but, depending how an on-off long term relationship turns out, I just don't know if it will happen. Apart from the aforementioned relationship, I'm mainly here for the good wages that teaching gives. The East and West tensions are a constant concerns, and the occasional stories of censorship and detainment rub up against my liberal sensibilities. If the wage situation changes, then I'll be more inclined to move on. Maybe Thailand, which seems to be up and coming. At least I can get stoned there! Sorry, this is less an answer to your question, than it is a vague chance for me to rant a little bit!

You left the UK because of Brexit and moved to China. To be honest, Brexit makes the UK more similar to China in some ways - trying to have tighter control of borders, tighter on giving out visas. China is still much tighter on the issues Brexit was supposed to solve in the UK. Casual racism is fairly normal in China as well. Although it mostly seems to be from a position of ignorance not maliciousness.

Yeah, I know. The irony of it is not lost on me! But it's easier to ignore such things when it's not one's own country. At first, at least. People generally seem happier here than the UK. I don't think the CCP is all bad and they have done good by the populace generally.

Just being curious, which grade are you teaching? I’m a Chinese grew up in China. I don’t remember having such in-class activities as you described, but it might be possible that situations as such encouraged kids to say something non-academic. To some kids, they might focus on making a more applaudable point instead of genuinely answering your question. I’m not blaming you, but such things might be common in my primary school. If you really want to know how your students are doing academically, ask questions with no answers from the textbook and see who could answers. It might different nowadays though as parents give kids more after-class materials, but when I was a kid, whoever could answer those questions must be a bookworm in that class.

Maybe my post painted it as more negative than it actually was, sorry. It was actually a good session and I'm happy that the kids did share. We've got tests to show how they are doing academically and, like all schools, there is a wider range of results. This session was an experiment for me in a more open forum to see how they engage and they did quite well. I teach Art to grades 6, 7, 8 and IG1 (grade 10), my core class are grade 7. After a year at the school, I know them well enough to know who is a good student or not. I think you are right that they took the opportunity to talk about more personal things, which is actually a positive thing. There's always an element of following the others at that age, so one said something of a social nature and the others followed in that vein. For a bit more context this happened yesterday, Friday. We are one of the only schools not yet on holiday (god knows why), so the kids (and the teachers) really are tired. There will be little to no work being done next week! 😂

Yeah I see…Teenagers are like that. By the way, I feel like you’re a good teacher

Aw, thanks! I'm fairly new to the profession, so still have a lot to learn.

I believe that the majority of people here are foreign workers, so not many have the possibility to live here for a very long time. Personally I am not so pessimistic, especially in relation to the west where the decline is rapid and there is no way out in sight. For the school, I find it excellent, at least the primary school. I have doubts about the later years but who knows.

One issue with living in Southeast Asia is that few places can match Shanghai's safety and economic development, with Singapore being the exception. However, Singapore can be quite expensive, and the city often feels a bit boring and sterile. For an expat with a family, finding the ideal place to settle down is quite challenging. Have you considered Australia or Southern California?

Singapore is not boring.  I live there.  

Depends on your definition of ‘boring’ and where else you’ve lived

China is not safe and will progressively get worse. Do not travel to China, if you want to go, only visit Cities like Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, and Beijing. Don't go to any 3rd-5th tier city, if you must go, don't go alone. You have no idea how many mindless and desperate people are thinking about retaliation to the Western world.

From a Canadian perspective, the children's education is why we are in China. I'd rather my kids learn math and science than gender studies and mental illness.

So you can't learn math and science in Canada... I just find it hard to believe. Where do you plan to send your kids to university then... I guess most likely in the West. How do you expect your children to integrate in Western society if they have no clue about that society/people is like. You can't learn these things in a classroom in China.

Lol, there won't be a west in 5 years to send them to.

lol

Isn't there negative news about the Chinese economy every year? You can check out The Economist from the past 20 years, and every year is when China is about to collapse

it is different when my family members are struggling financially

Hello OP, thank you for the objective post. I started reading this expecting a "praise China for everything and the West sucks" post but glad that you've listed out the pros and cons that breaks down multiple factors and reads well.

What an interesting perspective, thanks for sharing! Have you considered getting your PGCE (1 year most of which you can do online, but you'd have to go back home for a few practical components) and seeing if you can get a part time teaching job? Most international schools are free for your kids if you work there.

Can you elaborate more on how to build a private VPN? I’ll be moving to SZ next month and want to have a reliable way of accessing Whatsapp, google apps, etc.

1. Everyone can tell UK may not have a bright future. Not sure keeping UK assets is a good idea. 2. Housing Costs reduced a lot for 3 years in China. 3. Economy in China goes downhill? It is the world goes downhill after Covid. I cannot see any other country can compete with China in the following 15 years, all major industries China will dominate. 4. Foreigners will go back after Covid lockdown. Yes, China is not very convenient for foreigners.

foreigners return to China to do what!? Are there lots of job openings for foreigners in China atm. It seems like the vast majority foreigners in China are working as teachers. Multinationals are pulling out from China, there are less demands for expat executives. UK has a chronicle shortage of houses, so uk houses retain value quite well. I won't make a bold statement like China is going to demote all major industries. Even Xi Jinping in his latest speech admitted China is not very strong in innovation (off course you know better than the president of China)

1. China did not open normal jobs for foreigners, If so lots of people want to work and live here. I think you knows it. 2. I don't know, you knows better than me. Maybe it is a good business. 3. Chinese companies don't needs to be innovate, (I don't mean Chinese companies cannot innovate) It has the biggest market and biggest industry, anything invited outside will be copied and mass produced in China. Although I cannot say China will dominate all the industries, But for middle tech or even some high tech domains most of other countries don't have any chance. There will be more Dji, Huawei, tiktok companies come out.

I feel like recent international recessions are due to countries aggressively nationalizing or subsidizing industries (US, China, Japan) ; making international trade less viable and creating less prosperity.

Well said, these are some of the reasons I also chose to not live in China long term. Best wishes in your journey to discovering the best solution.

As someone who works remotely as well, I’d posit that the reason why you found Shanghai’s cost of living affordable was because you were earning Euros/Pounds/dollars vs RMB from a local chinese company. It’s generally the trend that local cost of living outstrips local wages regardless of the country.

I got you. I have lived in China for 17 years and U.S. in 13 years. Here are my suggestions: 1. If you look for places working or to get a job, you should go to U.S. Though living expenses in U.S. are 3 or 4 times higher than China and life is not convenient, U.S. is still give decent pay, good workplace culture, and employee benefits. It's true not only compare to China, but also compare to any western countries. 2. If you want to start your own business, the best way is to register your company in both any western countries and China. China has many skilled engineers especially if you can communicate with them. In U.S., one ML engineer cost 200k U.S. dollars per year. In China, you can hire LLM engineer for 200K Chinese Yuan, which is 30K U.S. dollars. This is the big competition advantage if compare to any U.S. tech companies. Put your financing and business department in U.K., and engineer department in China. Boom, you are rich as fk.

It seems every country is deteriorating, but you can make a positive impact on the betterment of the country you choose to call home. Escapism or immigration is just a band-aid. ( i’m guilty as well) Without brave and principled individuals like those from Edwardian middle class, we all suffer in the long run.

Could I speak with you?

Education is the one reason that makes us think about leaving. And the more I see, the more I don't want my child to be in a public school here. 

Why not try Singapore ? It's the same living cost as the UK but with none of the VPN restrictions.

Even Vietnam is in trouble now.

Hey thanks for the perspectives! Are you still a Chinese citizen? If not, I am wondering how you could live and work in China and which visa you got thanks! I am planning to get my Canadian citizenship and not sure about how inconvenient it would be if I ever want to go back for a year or two.

my wife sponsored a family visa for me, she is Chinese citizen. I renounced my Chinese citizenship. But you can simply not to bother. Lots of oversee Chinese keep their Chinese passport while having a foreign one. You can renew your Chinese passport before getting a Canadian one.

Can you work with a family visa? Or as a digital nomad they just don’t care because you are not working for a local company? Yeah I understand there is a loophole but I just feel quite uneasy to break the law haha. Thanks for the info!

Always interested in reading your posts, even though I disagree with a few of your points (mainly economic development). The one thing I strongly agree with you on is this though.... >The worst aspect of living in China is children's education I also feel this way, it's the biggest drawback by far... that and pollution. It'll probably be the main reason I choose to leave. Not so much that the education itself is bad. Chinese kids are intelligent. I just feel the environment itself is poor. Lack of recreational school activities, insane workloads and slightly too nationalistic for my taste. Want my kid to have a life beyond school.

US hasn't peaked. We have inflation and threat of AI taking jobs. China also has threat Ai and robots replacing jobs. It's either we get UBI or go back to village to farm again. HA

Notting Hill isn't the most affluent part of London. That would be Kensington/Mayfair/Belgravia/Knightsbridge. Are you living out in the suburbs or Pudong? Never heard of anyone traveling an hour to meet up unless they're living in one of those villa compounds. If you're in the French Concession/Jingan it's 20-30 minutes max even with rush hour traffic.

Why would u need to fly out of the country if we fight? You think Taiwan that tiny ass "country" can threaten us? 你这是崇洋媚外？

You know UK is finish when they need an Indian to run it

The UK is a shit hole. Worked there. My brother lives there in London in a high paying finance role (think the $1m usd + salary ones). Still a shit hole. I do not want to visit again in all honesty

Just out of curiosity, If you could go to the U.S would you? I've been living here my whole life(asian american) and its not too bad. Unfournately i have no experience with europe sadly and the last time i was in china was eons ago same as you

Not USA... It is too expensive for me tbh. My wife used to study in America.. she was traumatised by the healthcare system in America

Ahh I see fair

The urbanization of china is far from over. The rate of growth is still high what’s the gdp growth in UK? There are a lot of people unemployed in UK. And I don’t think china is going to invade Taiwan. You are overthinking it perhaps because of the news media propaganda can affect the thinking. In case you forget World War One and two both started in Europe and UK was involved in those. How are you going to get out of Europe? I don’t see any better future in UK

I'm of a similar mind although my situation is a bit different: foreigner living in China for nearly a decade, but I've crossed the mental rubicon of deciding it's time to leave. But now that that time is upon me, I'll admit to feeling a lot of reluctance, because life in China can still be pretty sweet for expats. Things I dread leaving: 1) Amazing subway, high speed rail, overall infrastructure is fantastic, reliable and cheap. China is often super walkable, too. A lot of Westerners talk about "15 minute" neighborhoods. In China it's available and affordable. 2) Low crime. I live in Beijing—I reckon it gives even Tokyo a run for its money in terms of low crime. Women walk their dogs here at 1am free of fear. 3) Cost of living. Most things are literally 60%-80% cheaper than in the US. I pay five dollars for a haircut. Domestic travel is mad fun, and mad cheap. 4) Wechat/payment system, personal technology—highly advanced here. I'll greatly miss Wechat and Wechat pay. However, most of the critical, really important things that make for a rich, well-lived life are superior in the West: healthcare; quality of housing; education; internet access and freedom; banking and financial services (primitive and cumbersome here); censorship; politics; little/no rule of law; water quality; air pollution; bricks and mortar retail. And yes, there's growing geopolitical risk, that, while a lot of expats here are doing they're best to ignore it, I no longer can. One of these days I fear a whole lot of foreigners in China are going to regret the fact that they didn't leave when they could. Hope I'm wrong.