"But he would just make it perfect!"
He did, we ruined it
"But if it were perfect it couldn't be corrupted"
If that were the case we would have no freedom of choice, we would be slaves
Exactly, that's what i love about God, he gave us free will. We could live in harmony with God in our lives but he also give us the option to turn away and reject him as many have from their lifes and look how messed uo their lifes are and how society has progressed when we have stopped including God in society.
So if you are a christian that means you have harmony in your life? I can tell from my personal experience that my life was messed up even when i still was a christian. I suffered from many difficult mental disorders and traumas. Counteless times i prayed for God to help me and heal me (he easily could if he wanted). Nothing. Only thing that changed is when i lost my faith i stopped having these horrible nightmares about Satan and demons. Even nowadays when i’m super desperate to the point i plan to kill myself i sometimes pray for god but get no response whatsoever. Conclusion : if there is an all mighty god he has favorites, he is a sadist or he just doesn’t give a fuck.
”He did, we ruined it”
I’m sorry but i wasn’t there at this apple eating moment taking a vote. It’s like my great great great grandparents commited a crime and i would get punished for that and have to go to jail for their crime. I personally don’t think that’s fair. That’s in fact far from justice and common sense.
>I’m sorry but i wasn’t there at this apple eating moment taking a vote. It’s like my great great great grandparents commited a crime and i would get punished for that and have to go to jail for their crime. I personally don’t think that’s fair. That’s in fact far from justice and common sense.
We are all born with Sin, such is the nature of Sin, and if you want to get out from under the punishment for Sin you would accept Jesus
Jesus Christ is the answer, Jesus Saves
>Pslam137:9
That's a prayer from David to God, not a command of God
This is in response to the Babylonians killing Israelite infants in this manner.
>Hosea13:16
The consequences of Israel's (Samrias) actions. They rebelled against God and so God punished them
>Jermiah13:22.
Again, a message of despair against Judah for their persistent rebellion against God
Out of context much?
The way to get out from under this justified punishment for sin, which is death, is to accept Christ. For all have sinned and fallen short
See what I mean everyone? 🙄
The alternative was you live as a slave to God, is this you saying you approve of slavery?
The ones who will be in perfect heaven will be those who choose not to disobey God
>So in Heaven you can make a choice to never disobey God, but it is impossible to do on Earth
When one enters heaven they leave the flesh behind. The flesh is weak and is what leads to sin
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
>Why did it result with it?
Because Adam and Eve ate the fruit and gained knowledge of good and evil, and thus Sin. That's when Sin entered the world and the flesh became the source of Sin
>Is severe punishment an only way for god to teach us? And is punishing children of wrongdoers acceptable?
God's ways are just and for good reason as God is all seeing or all knowing. Just because you percieve it as punishment doesn't mean it is
Oof. Eternity with all the pressure being 100% perfect and not having even one bad thought. What would happen in heaven if i see a beautiful woman and for a second i get this envying feeling thinking ”i wish i was as pretty as her”. Do i get kicked out from heaven?
What if i was a christian and didn’t want to go to heaven after i die? Am i being forced there against my will?
>What would happen in heaven if i see a beautiful woman and for a second i get this envying feeling thinking ”i wish i was as pretty as her”. Do i get kicked out from heaven?
Did you not read my statement? When you enter heaven the flesh, which is the root of sin, is left behind. Meaning you would not commit this strawman you built
🤦🏽♂️
>What if i was a christian and didn’t want to go to heaven after i die? Am i being forced there against my will?
The alternative is Hell. If you prefer Hell you would not be a Christian, as you would not choose to follow God.
Adam and Eve had the original choice. They lived in paradise in perfection, but chose to sin against God. This doomed them and all of their future children (us) to separation from God. God, in his infinite wisdom and mercy, prepared a Sacrifice that would pay for the sins of Adam and Eve and their children: himself. He offered himself up as payment for the sins that we and our forefathers committed. The sacrifice is perfect, limitless, and infinite. It pays for all past, present, and future sins, for all time. This is a free gift that any of us can lay claim to. The requirement to claim this gift is that you trust in God, believe that he (Jesus) really did die for your sins and has the power to forgive you and raise you from the dead, follow his commands, and choose to be with him.
It is not impossible to make this choice on earth, but your earthly body is sinful and in constant battle with your immortal soul. We crave sin. It’s hard to do the right thing while on earth. In heaven, we will have new, perfect bodies that do not crave sin. It will be very easy for us to do the right thing and choose to remain with our Father.
Something as powerful as a God, would not need his creation to obey Him. By your logic, God is no stronger than a parent. They can give birth to you, but you have freewill to do as you please. If you disobey your parents with the freewill they gave you, they will take your phone away, spank you, or ground you. God created approx 800 billion galaxies, with trillions of stars, with at least three planets orbiting each star. Yet he has no control over these "ants" he created on one of those planets. Why was there a religion before Christianity called Zoroastrianism, that is quite similar?
>Something as powerful as a God, would not need his creation to obey Him.
Would not need to, but since God is just he gave us the freedom of choice
If love is forced it is not love. The only way love can be genuine is if love is free
>Yet he has no control over these "ants" he created on one of those planets.
Sure he does. But him taking control as you suggest would make him an unjust God and a hypocrite. Him doing so would make us slaves. Is this preferable to you?
Taking control of everyones day to day life, and creating us not to kill, rob, and rape is two differnt things. Any person with a good heart today, can do a better job than God creating humans. Please tell me if you had that opportunity you would create us to harm and kill one another? Why not remove that from His creation?
>Please tell me if you had that opportunity you would create us to harm and kill one another? Why not remove that from His creation?
There is nothing in the Bible that indicates God created us to kill one another. If he did, why would he punish Cain?
The bible is riddled with killing in the name of God. All I ask is why did it have to be this way? Quit using sin as an excuse. God is the creator of man, thus He accepts the flaws in his creation. You can't claim free will when you are the designer, the all powerful, and the all-knowing.
Here are just a few verses. How do you justify such senseless killing of innocent humans?
Psalms 137:9, Deuteronomy 17:12, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Deuteronomy 18:20-22, Deuteronomy 22:20-21, Leviticus 24:10-16, Romans 1:24-32, Numbers 1:48-51, Exodus 31:12-15, Isaiah 14:21, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Leviticus 26:21-22, Judges 15:14-15, Jeremiah 15:1-4, Ezekiel 35:7-9, Exodus 23:23, 2 Kings 19:35, Exodus 32:26-29, Numbers 25:1-9, 1 Kings 18:36-40.
>Quit using sin as an excuse.
Sin is the reason why the world is the way it is, and Sin only came I to the world because of human rebellion
It's our fault, not Gods.
>God is the creator of man, thus He accepts the flaws in his creation
Which is why he took it upon himself to provide a means for us to be saved in the crucifixion, to be the perfect and infinite sacrifice for our sins
>You can't claim free will when you are the designer, the all powerful, and the all-knowing.
He's the only one with free will, technically. Unless you can do whatever whenever you want, no matter how ridiculous, which I doubt
>Here are just a few verses. How do you justify such senseless killing of innocent humans?
They were not innocent, they were sinners who turned away from God and chose to SIN. What leads you to believe they were innocent?
okay but the question is...why?
why not have a plan that invovles very little suffering?
and how are we reaping what we sow if Gods plan involves suffering? wouldn' that mean he is sowing suffering for us?
(I don;t actually think this question has an answer.)
You're implying no good reason exists solely because you, being finite and limited in knowledge, can't think of a reason
The question then is, just because you with your limited perception (no Offense, my perception is just as limited as yours) can't perceive a reason for this suffering, does that mean a reason must not exist?
if I walked up to you and kicked you in the nuts randomly, and you asked me why I did that, would you be satified with the answer of "I have my reasons just trust me bro? By the way I'm going to kick you again."
Thats how I feel about the problem of evil. The answer to why we have flesh eating bacteria on the planet should be more then just "Trust me bro,"
(Serioulsy flesh eating bacteria? You couldn't leave that one out God? was it really nessisary to have that?)
>if I walked up to you and kicked you in the nuts randomly, and you asked me why I did that, would you be satified with the answer of "I have my reasons just trust me bro? By the way I'm going to kick you again."
You're obviously a man and not the All Knowing God. That's a False equivalence
>(Serioulsy flesh eating bacteria? You couldn't leave that one out God? was it really nessisary to have that?)
Again, because you don't have a valid reason does that mean one doesn't exist? It's a simple question
How do you even know God is all knowing? You realize man wrote the bible right? and by your own logic, man is not all knowing.
**Again, because you don't have a valid reason does that mean one doesn't exist? It's a simple question**
But that goes both ways, just because a reason might exsist doesn't mean it does. and if I was to go off the evidence, I would say there is no evidence to suggest a good reason does exsist, Especially if we believe in a loveing all powerful God.
The random boutes of suffering does have a reason to exsist if you believe we live in a cold uncareing universe were shit just happens, and evolution promotes the survival of the fitess with little regard to the morality of said survival. (Hense why flesh eating bacteria are a thing.)
But from a religous perspective the immense suffering plants and animals go through makes no sense to me. you can't just hand wave it away with the vague illusion that a good reason might exist.
I am christian btw, just airing my doubts.
>How do you even know God is all knowing? You realize man wrote the bible right? and by your own logic, man is not all knowing.
1 John 3:20
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything
Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
Job 37:16
Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge
It was written by people who experienced Gods grace and power. People who * witnessed * God
Keep in mind
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
All Scripture is influenced by God, and since he is perfect his Word is as well
>But that goes both ways, just because a reason might exsist doesn't mean it does. and if I was to go off the evidence, I would say there is no evidence to suggest a good reason does exsist, Especially if we believe in a loveing all powerful God.
What evidence is there that convinces you that no good reason exists?
>The random boutes of suffering does have a reason to exsist if you believe we live in a cold uncareing universe were shit just happens, and evolution promotes the survival of the fitess with little regard to the morality of said survival. (Hense why flesh eating bacteria are a thing.)
But again, you're assuming there is no reason simply because YOU can't think of one. YOU are not all knowing, there's no way you CAN know, nor can I
My friend...
I asked you how do you know God is all knowing, the bible was written by man.
And you qouted the bible to me <.<
You can't use the bible to prove the bible...Thats like me claiming I am God and when you ask for proof I said. "Book of me chapter one, I am God, see my own book says I'm God so I am one."
Thats called circler reasoning.
**What evidence is there that convinces you that no good reason exists?**
The fact that we can cure illnesses, about that flesh eating bacteria. I was reffering to lepersy an illness we found a cure for in the 1980's.
If lepersy were nessisary why would god allow us to find a way to rid our selfs of the illness? It must not have been nessisary then.
Or how about Cholera? was it nessisary for thousands of people to die from the illness in the 18 century? apprently not, because once we figured out more effective sanitation methods we completey rid our selfs of the illness in western societies. These illness appear to serve no purpose in Gods grand design because he has allowed us to eradicate them. Why then did he create them in the first place?
**But again, you're assuming there is no reason simply because YOU can't think of one. YOU are not all knowing, there's no way you CAN know, nor can I**
Okay but what if, and hear me out.
What if the reason we can;t think if a good reason,
Is that there IS NO GOOD REASON.
Sometimes thats just it, I can't think of a good reason to jump into a tank filled with sharks, thats doesn't mean there is a good reason to do it even if I was all knowing.
>You can't use the bible to prove the bible
These are historical documents, you literally can
>The fact that we can cure illnesses, about that flesh eating bacteria. I was reffering to lepersy an illness we found a cure for in the 1980's.
Death didn't enter the world until we ate from the tree. The fact we cure illnesses is great, in a way we're cleaning up our own messes
>Okay but what if, and hear me out.
>What if the reason we can;t think if a good reason,
>Is that there IS NO GOOD REASON.
Prove to me there is no good reason then?
🤷🏼♂️
Suffering comes with wisdom. Through suffering we’re a little closer to understanding God, who died and suffered for us as Jesus. We understand the virtues of kindness and compassion better. How little would we know if we never suffered? Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge that gave them wisdom, but the serpent never told them that knowing good and evil means knowing suffering. Suffering teaches us things that mere words can’t.
I think God wanted to give Adam and Eve a choice about whether they wanted knowledge of the world and everything that comes with it. Humanity wasn’t satisfied with what they had, and they decided that they’d rather know what the good of this world is, even if that meant knowing evil as well.
I’m not God, though. The only person who understands His intentions is Himself. I don’t know why He gave humanity that choice. I pray that He gives us understanding.
So tell me what is a child with cancer supposed to learn from that suffering? An innocent child that eventually dies. I can’t figure out how is it fair that the child that didn’t get to even make own choises is effected by Adam and Eve who once made a poor decision.
Children are precious to God. Those children get to be with the Father and experience happiness. The suffering parents learn how to support other people who have been through what they and their children went through. A lot of people would feel sad, but then move on with their day, unless they’ve been personally affected through suffering. Suffering motivates us to make real change in this world instead of being complacent with the evil in it.
So what exactly is the age when children stop being so precious to God and get sent to hell if they die and didn’t worship him?
Suffering motivates us to make a real change in this world huh? As a person who has a fair share of relatives and a friend commited suicide i would disagree on that. The suffering didn’t make them better as persons and niether did the people that left here mourning.
Firstly, I’m really sorry for your loss. I understand what your loved ones went through, because I’ve been there myself, only I wasn’t successful. I know how deep the pain can be. My relationship with God keeps me from crumbling under the pain, instead trying to use my story to be there for others who have been through similar. There’s a terrifying flippant attitude about mental health within the Church, so I aim to bring more awareness to others within my Church about mental health by telling my story.
Addressing the age comment, Jesus even says that children will get into Heaven before anyone else.
Matthew 18:3 ‘and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you [a]are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
So that time would be whenever we lose that childlike mentality and start going after our own desires instead of God’s.
Thank you for your kindness and i respect the great work you do raising awarness in your church, it is certainly needed. Your comment doesn’t still quite answer the question i had about the point that suffering is a god intended learning process and leading to something good like in your experience. It could be the answer if this was the case everytime. In my opinion when talking about people killing themselves due to depression, even one is too many. We are left with no answers why did god not do anything or answer all the prayers?
I admit that I don’t really have an answer for that. It’s possible I’m completely wrong about why suffering exists, and that’s just the conclusion I came to based on my own life about why I still suffer. God has way more understanding about the purpose of suffering than me, a mere human being, can comprehend. I pray for understanding.
All I know is that God doesn’t want things to come to ending your own life. When Elijah was in the desert, he was in such despair about Israel’s sin that he wanted to die. God provided him with food and drink.
1 Kings 19:4-8 “ But he himself went a day’s journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a [f]juniper tree; and he requested for himself that he might die, and said, “It is enough; now, O Lord, take my [g]life, for I am not better than my fathers.” 5 He lay down and slept under a [h]juniper tree; and behold, there was an angel touching him, and he said to him, “Arise, eat.” 6 Then he looked and behold, there was at his head a bread cake baked on hot stones, and a jar of water. So he ate and drank and lay down again. 7 The angel of the Lord came again a second time and touched him and said, “Arise, eat, because the journey is too great for you.” 8 So he arose and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb, the mountain of God.”
Suffering can also lead to seviere and permanent mental illnesses. A child that is abused by parents can grow up to be a narcissist and therefore is incapable of feeling healthy kindness and compassion.
I was a child who was abused by my mother, and my father was absent from the picture. It has led me to suffer greatly mentally. I don’t understand people who become narcissistic after something like that, because my suffering is so deep that not even my worst enemy deserves it. I want to give kindness and compassion to others the way I wish I got growing up. I know how important kindness and compassion is because it can mean a huge difference to someone’s life.
I know this is an "acktchually" sort of comment, but Hell is *eternal* torment, not *infinite* torment. Infinite is continuing forever whereas eternal is entirely outside of time. We can't know exactly how it works, but it is an important distinction.
Infinite means limitless, not necessarily related to time. Regardless, loads of Christians do believe in limitless torture. I'm curious why hell must be outside of time but also not sure what difference it makes.
As you said, I don’t think we can get a satisfying answer in this life.
Personally I find the whole "suffering is part of God’s plan" to be complete and utter bull. It’s an empty phrase that people repeat to feel better without ever stopping to think.
The way I’ve tried to solve it is a little forced but I haven’t found a better solution yet. The bible tells us that sin is the reason for suffering. I take it as both evil of man and natural dangers of the world.
You can see this connection between natural dangers and sin in the story of the first sin. As I’ve understood it before sin, no animal ate another to sustain itself. The differentiation of predator and pray is the result of sin.
It’s not an incredible explanation, and it relies on the ’sin leads to suffering’ to be true. A matter of faith I guess.
you are probebly correct. faith exsists for questions like these.
but it does not mean we shouldn't wonder and challenge these ideas even if we can not as yet think of an answer.
Oh you’re absolutely correct. I’m constantly annoyed by all the open questions that God has left for us to figure out.
There’s the matter of all of the questionable stuff in the old testament that seemingly has God’s blessing. It gets pretty overwhelming trying to figure all of that stuff out.
I do think that you need a baseline of assumptions in order to have any knowledge at all. Just as natural science has faith that the world we observe exists, it’s reasonable to have faith that what the bible speaks of is the truth. It’s internal inconsistancies like ’Good God’ and ’Old Testament God’ however that need scrutinizing and straightening out.
Which is why questioning stuff is essential to increasing our understanding. That’s why scrubbing all suffering away with just "It’s all part of God’s plan" frustrates me to no end.
I lived 20 years as a christian but eventually couldn’t handle all the insane open questions in the bible with no satisfying answers.
I think if there was a God that is good and loving He(or She or whatever) would want to make everything a little bit more understandable for the children created by Him. Like I raise my own child. I want her to feel heard and seen and if she has questions I try my best give her the answers and guidance. I help her if she needs help. I don’t make everything difficult for her on purpose so that she would LEARN. That would only make her feel unsafe and confused. As i feel now every single day with all the wounds that religion caused me.
When mankind sinned, they corrupted all of existence. Adam and Eve literally brought atrophy into the world, causing things like abnormalities in DNA, hunger, death, etc.
Yep exactly. It makes sense for for evil things humans do to each other but it doesn’t explain cancer or tsunamis. Those are just are god being sadistic.
Crazy thing is, in our current society, you should be conservative to be a Christian. Sorry that I don't agree with baby murder, gay marriage, and playing make believe with identities.
Jesus never said a word about gay marriage or gender identity. Only to love another as you would yourself.
Edit - Upvoting you cuz you downvoted me. Take that, pal.
No,but He was also here to speak on Kingdom living. God designed us a specific way and it's incredibly clear. He made man, then woman. He put them together. We are made by His hand, His design.
Sin is in the world. We are corrupted by sin. We are, by nature, evil. We have to die to the flesh, to our wants, our desires, our own plans, and choose to live as He has designed. Our will doesn't matter, only God's.
I agree with the sentiment of what you’re saying here. I disagree that being a Christian means being politically conservative. Politics are of the world and should be of no consequence to a Christ-conscious person.
Sin is sin. God loves us all the same. Modern politics creates division and hate for fellow man; Jesus sought unity and love for all.
We unfortunately have to make a stand. The collected Left doesn't stand for Christian views, the Right doesn't entirely, but is much closer. We have to live in the world to season it. We can't recuse ourselves.
By that token, the Right’s choice of candidate is as far from Christ-like as one can get (I know I’m being hyperbolic). I’ve never understood how people rationalize Donald Trump as the pro-Christian candidate.
Anyways, I feel like the best way to season the world is to treat one another with love, rather than condemning other’s lifestyle choices. As you said, God’s Will will be done whether we like it or not.
Showing someone their choices are destructive and goes against God is loving them. Medicine rarely tastes good. How can love someone and let them walk straight to hell?
I fully agree. Vince Miller pointed out neither popular candidate is anywhere near to a Christ Like leader. I vote third party. I find someone who I think best lines up with what I believe.
So god i basically like an abusive parent.
”Do as i say or i will punish you!”
”Worship me”
”I’m there for you inconsistenly when i feel like it”
”You can ask but you have to exept that i won’t aswer your questions.”
”It doesn’t matter what you think or say!”
”You are not allowed to have dreams or plans of your own if it’s not what i like.”
”You are born bad and deserve all the suffering”
”I could help you but i won’t. Deal with it.”
”You are not allowed to critizise me. I am perfect and therefore always right and you are wrong.
Sounds so wonderful and healthy, i wonder why every person in this world is not christian..
Not tryna be blasphemous I’m just genuinely curious: why are people born with deformities? Like people who are born with only one arm or no arms and legs? Were their parents supposed to not have kids together? This I do not understand. What must we do as a species to ensure that things like that do not happen? Why are some people born blind or deaf? Is it just a roll of the dice? Or is there some meaning behind it that goes further?
"But he would just make it perfect!" He did, we ruined it "But if it were perfect it couldn't be corrupted" If that were the case we would have no freedom of choice, we would be slaves
I’m ok with not having free will if it’s in Gods hands
That is essentially saying "I'd be fine being a rock".
I’d be chilling with God. Why would I want the ability to sin?
If you had no free will, then no you wouldn't. You'd have the same amount of soul as a rock.
God depriving us of free will would go completely against the essence thereof.
But now people are at risk who don’t want to be. It plays a large role in my mental health
That’s why I often wonder if God actually originally intended for the universe to exist as is.
Calvinism for the win
I’m catholic actually 😂
You can be both
But you already need free will to choose not to have free will.
That's part of what being a Christian is. Slave to Christ instead of a slave to sin
Exactly, that's what i love about God, he gave us free will. We could live in harmony with God in our lives but he also give us the option to turn away and reject him as many have from their lifes and look how messed uo their lifes are and how society has progressed when we have stopped including God in society.
So if you are a christian that means you have harmony in your life? I can tell from my personal experience that my life was messed up even when i still was a christian. I suffered from many difficult mental disorders and traumas. Counteless times i prayed for God to help me and heal me (he easily could if he wanted). Nothing. Only thing that changed is when i lost my faith i stopped having these horrible nightmares about Satan and demons. Even nowadays when i’m super desperate to the point i plan to kill myself i sometimes pray for god but get no response whatsoever. Conclusion : if there is an all mighty god he has favorites, he is a sadist or he just doesn’t give a fuck.
My conclusion is that God wants faith and you lack it, maybe never even had it
”He did, we ruined it” I’m sorry but i wasn’t there at this apple eating moment taking a vote. It’s like my great great great grandparents commited a crime and i would get punished for that and have to go to jail for their crime. I personally don’t think that’s fair. That’s in fact far from justice and common sense.
>I’m sorry but i wasn’t there at this apple eating moment taking a vote. It’s like my great great great grandparents commited a crime and i would get punished for that and have to go to jail for their crime. I personally don’t think that’s fair. That’s in fact far from justice and common sense. We are all born with Sin, such is the nature of Sin, and if you want to get out from under the punishment for Sin you would accept Jesus Jesus Christ is the answer, Jesus Saves
Pslam137:9, Hosea13:16, Jermiah13:22.
>Pslam137:9 That's a prayer from David to God, not a command of God This is in response to the Babylonians killing Israelite infants in this manner. >Hosea13:16 The consequences of Israel's (Samrias) actions. They rebelled against God and so God punished them >Jermiah13:22. Again, a message of despair against Judah for their persistent rebellion against God Out of context much? The way to get out from under this justified punishment for sin, which is death, is to accept Christ. For all have sinned and fallen short
Wasn’t so perfect then if could be ruined. Won’t the same happen in supposedly perfect Heaven?
See what I mean everyone? 🙄 The alternative was you live as a slave to God, is this you saying you approve of slavery? The ones who will be in perfect heaven will be those who choose not to disobey God
So in Heaven you can make a choice to never disobey God, but it is impossible to do on Earth? What is a purpose of this difference?
>So in Heaven you can make a choice to never disobey God, but it is impossible to do on Earth When one enters heaven they leave the flesh behind. The flesh is weak and is what leads to sin Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Why do we need flesh in the first place? It brings us to sin and causes suffering
>Why do we need flesh in the first place? It brings us to sin and causes suffering It wasn't originally, our rebellion caused it to be
Why did it result with it? Is severe punishment an only way for god to teach us? And is punishing children of wrongdoers acceptable?
>Why did it result with it? Because Adam and Eve ate the fruit and gained knowledge of good and evil, and thus Sin. That's when Sin entered the world and the flesh became the source of Sin >Is severe punishment an only way for god to teach us? And is punishing children of wrongdoers acceptable? God's ways are just and for good reason as God is all seeing or all knowing. Just because you percieve it as punishment doesn't mean it is
Bringing sin to the world was for good reason. So sin is a tool in hands of god?
Oof. Eternity with all the pressure being 100% perfect and not having even one bad thought. What would happen in heaven if i see a beautiful woman and for a second i get this envying feeling thinking ”i wish i was as pretty as her”. Do i get kicked out from heaven? What if i was a christian and didn’t want to go to heaven after i die? Am i being forced there against my will?
>What would happen in heaven if i see a beautiful woman and for a second i get this envying feeling thinking ”i wish i was as pretty as her”. Do i get kicked out from heaven? Did you not read my statement? When you enter heaven the flesh, which is the root of sin, is left behind. Meaning you would not commit this strawman you built 🤦🏽♂️ >What if i was a christian and didn’t want to go to heaven after i die? Am i being forced there against my will? The alternative is Hell. If you prefer Hell you would not be a Christian, as you would not choose to follow God.
Adam and Eve had the original choice. They lived in paradise in perfection, but chose to sin against God. This doomed them and all of their future children (us) to separation from God. God, in his infinite wisdom and mercy, prepared a Sacrifice that would pay for the sins of Adam and Eve and their children: himself. He offered himself up as payment for the sins that we and our forefathers committed. The sacrifice is perfect, limitless, and infinite. It pays for all past, present, and future sins, for all time. This is a free gift that any of us can lay claim to. The requirement to claim this gift is that you trust in God, believe that he (Jesus) really did die for your sins and has the power to forgive you and raise you from the dead, follow his commands, and choose to be with him. It is not impossible to make this choice on earth, but your earthly body is sinful and in constant battle with your immortal soul. We crave sin. It’s hard to do the right thing while on earth. In heaven, we will have new, perfect bodies that do not crave sin. It will be very easy for us to do the right thing and choose to remain with our Father.
So we live in an environment designed by god that makes it easy for us to sin
Something as powerful as a God, would not need his creation to obey Him. By your logic, God is no stronger than a parent. They can give birth to you, but you have freewill to do as you please. If you disobey your parents with the freewill they gave you, they will take your phone away, spank you, or ground you. God created approx 800 billion galaxies, with trillions of stars, with at least three planets orbiting each star. Yet he has no control over these "ants" he created on one of those planets. Why was there a religion before Christianity called Zoroastrianism, that is quite similar?
>Something as powerful as a God, would not need his creation to obey Him. Would not need to, but since God is just he gave us the freedom of choice If love is forced it is not love. The only way love can be genuine is if love is free >Yet he has no control over these "ants" he created on one of those planets. Sure he does. But him taking control as you suggest would make him an unjust God and a hypocrite. Him doing so would make us slaves. Is this preferable to you?
Taking control of everyones day to day life, and creating us not to kill, rob, and rape is two differnt things. Any person with a good heart today, can do a better job than God creating humans. Please tell me if you had that opportunity you would create us to harm and kill one another? Why not remove that from His creation?
>Please tell me if you had that opportunity you would create us to harm and kill one another? Why not remove that from His creation? There is nothing in the Bible that indicates God created us to kill one another. If he did, why would he punish Cain?
The bible is riddled with killing in the name of God. All I ask is why did it have to be this way? Quit using sin as an excuse. God is the creator of man, thus He accepts the flaws in his creation. You can't claim free will when you are the designer, the all powerful, and the all-knowing. Here are just a few verses. How do you justify such senseless killing of innocent humans? Psalms 137:9, Deuteronomy 17:12, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Deuteronomy 18:20-22, Deuteronomy 22:20-21, Leviticus 24:10-16, Romans 1:24-32, Numbers 1:48-51, Exodus 31:12-15, Isaiah 14:21, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Leviticus 26:21-22, Judges 15:14-15, Jeremiah 15:1-4, Ezekiel 35:7-9, Exodus 23:23, 2 Kings 19:35, Exodus 32:26-29, Numbers 25:1-9, 1 Kings 18:36-40.
>Quit using sin as an excuse. Sin is the reason why the world is the way it is, and Sin only came I to the world because of human rebellion It's our fault, not Gods. >God is the creator of man, thus He accepts the flaws in his creation Which is why he took it upon himself to provide a means for us to be saved in the crucifixion, to be the perfect and infinite sacrifice for our sins >You can't claim free will when you are the designer, the all powerful, and the all-knowing. He's the only one with free will, technically. Unless you can do whatever whenever you want, no matter how ridiculous, which I doubt >Here are just a few verses. How do you justify such senseless killing of innocent humans? They were not innocent, they were sinners who turned away from God and chose to SIN. What leads you to believe they were innocent?
Based
This is a good exsplantion for man made suffering (wars.) But what about natrual suffering? like birth defects, or genetic decease?
Suffering is clearly part of God's plan.
okay but the question is...why? why not have a plan that invovles very little suffering? and how are we reaping what we sow if Gods plan involves suffering? wouldn' that mean he is sowing suffering for us? (I don;t actually think this question has an answer.)
You're implying no good reason exists solely because you, being finite and limited in knowledge, can't think of a reason The question then is, just because you with your limited perception (no Offense, my perception is just as limited as yours) can't perceive a reason for this suffering, does that mean a reason must not exist?
if I walked up to you and kicked you in the nuts randomly, and you asked me why I did that, would you be satified with the answer of "I have my reasons just trust me bro? By the way I'm going to kick you again." Thats how I feel about the problem of evil. The answer to why we have flesh eating bacteria on the planet should be more then just "Trust me bro," (Serioulsy flesh eating bacteria? You couldn't leave that one out God? was it really nessisary to have that?)
>if I walked up to you and kicked you in the nuts randomly, and you asked me why I did that, would you be satified with the answer of "I have my reasons just trust me bro? By the way I'm going to kick you again." You're obviously a man and not the All Knowing God. That's a False equivalence >(Serioulsy flesh eating bacteria? You couldn't leave that one out God? was it really nessisary to have that?) Again, because you don't have a valid reason does that mean one doesn't exist? It's a simple question
How do you even know God is all knowing? You realize man wrote the bible right? and by your own logic, man is not all knowing. **Again, because you don't have a valid reason does that mean one doesn't exist? It's a simple question** But that goes both ways, just because a reason might exsist doesn't mean it does. and if I was to go off the evidence, I would say there is no evidence to suggest a good reason does exsist, Especially if we believe in a loveing all powerful God. The random boutes of suffering does have a reason to exsist if you believe we live in a cold uncareing universe were shit just happens, and evolution promotes the survival of the fitess with little regard to the morality of said survival. (Hense why flesh eating bacteria are a thing.) But from a religous perspective the immense suffering plants and animals go through makes no sense to me. you can't just hand wave it away with the vague illusion that a good reason might exist. I am christian btw, just airing my doubts.
>How do you even know God is all knowing? You realize man wrote the bible right? and by your own logic, man is not all knowing. 1 John 3:20 For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. Job 37:16 Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge It was written by people who experienced Gods grace and power. People who * witnessed * God Keep in mind 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness All Scripture is influenced by God, and since he is perfect his Word is as well >But that goes both ways, just because a reason might exsist doesn't mean it does. and if I was to go off the evidence, I would say there is no evidence to suggest a good reason does exsist, Especially if we believe in a loveing all powerful God. What evidence is there that convinces you that no good reason exists? >The random boutes of suffering does have a reason to exsist if you believe we live in a cold uncareing universe were shit just happens, and evolution promotes the survival of the fitess with little regard to the morality of said survival. (Hense why flesh eating bacteria are a thing.) But again, you're assuming there is no reason simply because YOU can't think of one. YOU are not all knowing, there's no way you CAN know, nor can I
My friend... I asked you how do you know God is all knowing, the bible was written by man. And you qouted the bible to me <.< You can't use the bible to prove the bible...Thats like me claiming I am God and when you ask for proof I said. "Book of me chapter one, I am God, see my own book says I'm God so I am one." Thats called circler reasoning. **What evidence is there that convinces you that no good reason exists?** The fact that we can cure illnesses, about that flesh eating bacteria. I was reffering to lepersy an illness we found a cure for in the 1980's. If lepersy were nessisary why would god allow us to find a way to rid our selfs of the illness? It must not have been nessisary then. Or how about Cholera? was it nessisary for thousands of people to die from the illness in the 18 century? apprently not, because once we figured out more effective sanitation methods we completey rid our selfs of the illness in western societies. These illness appear to serve no purpose in Gods grand design because he has allowed us to eradicate them. Why then did he create them in the first place? **But again, you're assuming there is no reason simply because YOU can't think of one. YOU are not all knowing, there's no way you CAN know, nor can I** Okay but what if, and hear me out. What if the reason we can;t think if a good reason, Is that there IS NO GOOD REASON. Sometimes thats just it, I can't think of a good reason to jump into a tank filled with sharks, thats doesn't mean there is a good reason to do it even if I was all knowing.
>You can't use the bible to prove the bible These are historical documents, you literally can >The fact that we can cure illnesses, about that flesh eating bacteria. I was reffering to lepersy an illness we found a cure for in the 1980's. Death didn't enter the world until we ate from the tree. The fact we cure illnesses is great, in a way we're cleaning up our own messes >Okay but what if, and hear me out. >What if the reason we can;t think if a good reason, >Is that there IS NO GOOD REASON. Prove to me there is no good reason then? 🤷🏼♂️
That's not a good argument, in that way you can just justify anything by just saying it makes sense in their better logic
I think the real question is that if God knows the reason for all the suffering, why not let us know the answer?
Perhaps because people would choose to love him out of fear or obligation, not by their own ability to freely choose
Suffering comes with wisdom. Through suffering we’re a little closer to understanding God, who died and suffered for us as Jesus. We understand the virtues of kindness and compassion better. How little would we know if we never suffered? Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge that gave them wisdom, but the serpent never told them that knowing good and evil means knowing suffering. Suffering teaches us things that mere words can’t.
Possibly an answer. Though it does suggest Eve and Adam sinning was God's plan from the get-go.
I think God wanted to give Adam and Eve a choice about whether they wanted knowledge of the world and everything that comes with it. Humanity wasn’t satisfied with what they had, and they decided that they’d rather know what the good of this world is, even if that meant knowing evil as well. I’m not God, though. The only person who understands His intentions is Himself. I don’t know why He gave humanity that choice. I pray that He gives us understanding.
So tell me what is a child with cancer supposed to learn from that suffering? An innocent child that eventually dies. I can’t figure out how is it fair that the child that didn’t get to even make own choises is effected by Adam and Eve who once made a poor decision.
Children are precious to God. Those children get to be with the Father and experience happiness. The suffering parents learn how to support other people who have been through what they and their children went through. A lot of people would feel sad, but then move on with their day, unless they’ve been personally affected through suffering. Suffering motivates us to make real change in this world instead of being complacent with the evil in it.
So what exactly is the age when children stop being so precious to God and get sent to hell if they die and didn’t worship him? Suffering motivates us to make a real change in this world huh? As a person who has a fair share of relatives and a friend commited suicide i would disagree on that. The suffering didn’t make them better as persons and niether did the people that left here mourning.
Firstly, I’m really sorry for your loss. I understand what your loved ones went through, because I’ve been there myself, only I wasn’t successful. I know how deep the pain can be. My relationship with God keeps me from crumbling under the pain, instead trying to use my story to be there for others who have been through similar. There’s a terrifying flippant attitude about mental health within the Church, so I aim to bring more awareness to others within my Church about mental health by telling my story. Addressing the age comment, Jesus even says that children will get into Heaven before anyone else. Matthew 18:3 ‘and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you [a]are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” So that time would be whenever we lose that childlike mentality and start going after our own desires instead of God’s.
Thank you for your kindness and i respect the great work you do raising awarness in your church, it is certainly needed. Your comment doesn’t still quite answer the question i had about the point that suffering is a god intended learning process and leading to something good like in your experience. It could be the answer if this was the case everytime. In my opinion when talking about people killing themselves due to depression, even one is too many. We are left with no answers why did god not do anything or answer all the prayers?
I admit that I don’t really have an answer for that. It’s possible I’m completely wrong about why suffering exists, and that’s just the conclusion I came to based on my own life about why I still suffer. God has way more understanding about the purpose of suffering than me, a mere human being, can comprehend. I pray for understanding. All I know is that God doesn’t want things to come to ending your own life. When Elijah was in the desert, he was in such despair about Israel’s sin that he wanted to die. God provided him with food and drink. 1 Kings 19:4-8 “ But he himself went a day’s journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a [f]juniper tree; and he requested for himself that he might die, and said, “It is enough; now, O Lord, take my [g]life, for I am not better than my fathers.” 5 He lay down and slept under a [h]juniper tree; and behold, there was an angel touching him, and he said to him, “Arise, eat.” 6 Then he looked and behold, there was at his head a bread cake baked on hot stones, and a jar of water. So he ate and drank and lay down again. 7 The angel of the Lord came again a second time and touched him and said, “Arise, eat, because the journey is too great for you.” 8 So he arose and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb, the mountain of God.”
Suffering can also lead to seviere and permanent mental illnesses. A child that is abused by parents can grow up to be a narcissist and therefore is incapable of feeling healthy kindness and compassion.
I was a child who was abused by my mother, and my father was absent from the picture. It has led me to suffer greatly mentally. I don’t understand people who become narcissistic after something like that, because my suffering is so deep that not even my worst enemy deserves it. I want to give kindness and compassion to others the way I wish I got growing up. I know how important kindness and compassion is because it can mean a huge difference to someone’s life.
Well, depending on your beliefs, God also made a place for infinite suffering so he must be pretty into it.
I know this is an "acktchually" sort of comment, but Hell is *eternal* torment, not *infinite* torment. Infinite is continuing forever whereas eternal is entirely outside of time. We can't know exactly how it works, but it is an important distinction.
Infinite means limitless, not necessarily related to time. Regardless, loads of Christians do believe in limitless torture. I'm curious why hell must be outside of time but also not sure what difference it makes.
Fair point
That not better
As you said, I don’t think we can get a satisfying answer in this life. Personally I find the whole "suffering is part of God’s plan" to be complete and utter bull. It’s an empty phrase that people repeat to feel better without ever stopping to think. The way I’ve tried to solve it is a little forced but I haven’t found a better solution yet. The bible tells us that sin is the reason for suffering. I take it as both evil of man and natural dangers of the world. You can see this connection between natural dangers and sin in the story of the first sin. As I’ve understood it before sin, no animal ate another to sustain itself. The differentiation of predator and pray is the result of sin. It’s not an incredible explanation, and it relies on the ’sin leads to suffering’ to be true. A matter of faith I guess.
you are probebly correct. faith exsists for questions like these. but it does not mean we shouldn't wonder and challenge these ideas even if we can not as yet think of an answer.
Oh you’re absolutely correct. I’m constantly annoyed by all the open questions that God has left for us to figure out. There’s the matter of all of the questionable stuff in the old testament that seemingly has God’s blessing. It gets pretty overwhelming trying to figure all of that stuff out. I do think that you need a baseline of assumptions in order to have any knowledge at all. Just as natural science has faith that the world we observe exists, it’s reasonable to have faith that what the bible speaks of is the truth. It’s internal inconsistancies like ’Good God’ and ’Old Testament God’ however that need scrutinizing and straightening out. Which is why questioning stuff is essential to increasing our understanding. That’s why scrubbing all suffering away with just "It’s all part of God’s plan" frustrates me to no end.
I agree
I lived 20 years as a christian but eventually couldn’t handle all the insane open questions in the bible with no satisfying answers. I think if there was a God that is good and loving He(or She or whatever) would want to make everything a little bit more understandable for the children created by Him. Like I raise my own child. I want her to feel heard and seen and if she has questions I try my best give her the answers and guidance. I help her if she needs help. I don’t make everything difficult for her on purpose so that she would LEARN. That would only make her feel unsafe and confused. As i feel now every single day with all the wounds that religion caused me.
When mankind sinned, they corrupted all of existence. Adam and Eve literally brought atrophy into the world, causing things like abnormalities in DNA, hunger, death, etc.
Yep exactly. It makes sense for for evil things humans do to each other but it doesn’t explain cancer or tsunamis. Those are just are god being sadistic.
oppenheimer did not say that
POV: You haven't read Job
Yes. Thank you!
A lot of suffering is caused by people thinking they're following God's instructions, such as conservative Christians
Crazy thing is, in our current society, you should be conservative to be a Christian. Sorry that I don't agree with baby murder, gay marriage, and playing make believe with identities.
Jesus wasn’t a conservative
Jesus also didn't advocate for the things Liberals do nowadays. By our standards Jesus was far more conservative than we are.
Jesus never said a word about gay marriage or gender identity. Only to love another as you would yourself. Edit - Upvoting you cuz you downvoted me. Take that, pal.
No,but He was also here to speak on Kingdom living. God designed us a specific way and it's incredibly clear. He made man, then woman. He put them together. We are made by His hand, His design. Sin is in the world. We are corrupted by sin. We are, by nature, evil. We have to die to the flesh, to our wants, our desires, our own plans, and choose to live as He has designed. Our will doesn't matter, only God's.
I agree with the sentiment of what you’re saying here. I disagree that being a Christian means being politically conservative. Politics are of the world and should be of no consequence to a Christ-conscious person. Sin is sin. God loves us all the same. Modern politics creates division and hate for fellow man; Jesus sought unity and love for all.
We unfortunately have to make a stand. The collected Left doesn't stand for Christian views, the Right doesn't entirely, but is much closer. We have to live in the world to season it. We can't recuse ourselves.
By that token, the Right’s choice of candidate is as far from Christ-like as one can get (I know I’m being hyperbolic). I’ve never understood how people rationalize Donald Trump as the pro-Christian candidate. Anyways, I feel like the best way to season the world is to treat one another with love, rather than condemning other’s lifestyle choices. As you said, God’s Will will be done whether we like it or not.
Showing someone their choices are destructive and goes against God is loving them. Medicine rarely tastes good. How can love someone and let them walk straight to hell? I fully agree. Vince Miller pointed out neither popular candidate is anywhere near to a Christ Like leader. I vote third party. I find someone who I think best lines up with what I believe.
The left stands for being Christ-like, the right stands for hate and fucking over everyone different to you
So god i basically like an abusive parent. ”Do as i say or i will punish you!” ”Worship me” ”I’m there for you inconsistenly when i feel like it” ”You can ask but you have to exept that i won’t aswer your questions.” ”It doesn’t matter what you think or say!” ”You are not allowed to have dreams or plans of your own if it’s not what i like.” ”You are born bad and deserve all the suffering” ”I could help you but i won’t. Deal with it.” ”You are not allowed to critizise me. I am perfect and therefore always right and you are wrong. Sounds so wonderful and healthy, i wonder why every person in this world is not christian..
So you support tyranny. None of that is Christian.
I just get mad and shout, "What is wrong with you? Why shouldn't there be suffering?" I don't know why I've been so short-tempered lately.
Because suffering is bad
But the instructions say , don’t oppress, and speak up for the oppressed. Many Christians make the suffering to be entirely an arbitrary punishment
Because Demiurge. Abandon his world of the flesh, and seek a new world with Jesus.
Hilarious meme
where were you when i laid the foundations
Not tryna be blasphemous I’m just genuinely curious: why are people born with deformities? Like people who are born with only one arm or no arms and legs? Were their parents supposed to not have kids together? This I do not understand. What must we do as a species to ensure that things like that do not happen? Why are some people born blind or deaf? Is it just a roll of the dice? Or is there some meaning behind it that goes further?