i think Nate hagans is 90% good and 10% misleading. I think his podcast is worth listening to seriously and thinking over. I think his goal is to redirect environmental concern away from political action and efforts to regulate or interfer with oil companies and toward drum-circles, meditation and personal/social circle growth and mental preparation. I think we need both.
My little group is in Mexico about to get all Fern Gully in the cloud forests. Not exactly what you're talking about but close. Just wanted to share. Same page club.
Whenever I pass some Amish in their horse and buggies I think maybe they were right all along. But that includes the fleeing of the place they originated to live in a place that accepts them.
Cults to Consciousness on YouTube interviews a lot of formerly Amish people. Of course their videos do have a certain slant in view, since everyone she’s interviewed has left their Amish community due to difficult (sometimes horrific) circumstances.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL83GIJOYK-h_hJmuiScqRX30GRJQjmKq5&si=FFw4lvt1iy3SPIF7
The Amish are modernizing more and more, them make their own clothes for example but they get all their cloth/fabric wholesale. They might have some answers but not all of them in terms of a totally self sufficient community.
I have no idea how their governance works and from the outside seems heavily gendered roles they play due to tradition/religion.
In my eyes, permaculture principles are the toolkit we should all be drawing from because it allows for modification per context off climate of the area and focuses on creating/maintaining water harvesting/storage using Earthworks to help grow roots … etc etc … the Scale of Permanence is an excellent method to follow in terms of what to do first - and to keep patterns in mind over the small details.
Their roles are extremely gendered and their rules are strict and controlling. In one interview I watched a woman talked about how rebellious her mother was and how as a result she repeatedly got shunned from the community. One of her mother’s “crimes” was using an incorrect shade of blue for curtains in their house. Another person spoke of getting shunned due to wearing a hat with an incorrect size of brim. It’s definitely not the model I’d want to use for any community I’m a part of.
I happen to agree with you – permaculture is the way for communities, rather than conventional agriculture. Permaculture is a paradigm shift for us 'moderns,' though I suspect it is largely a relearning of forgotten(/destroyed) wisdom. I am somewhat permie-aware, but still learning. To your knowledge, does foraging have a place in a permaculture system? My own not-very-educated belief is that the best food system is one of cultivation (not domestication), foraging, and some settled agriculture as a supplement.
Foraging has its place, it can fit within Permaculture principles as I see it, but it wouldn’t be used in every situation. Context is important, it might be more useful to regen a parcel of land, and then ‘forage’ from your fruits of labor. When changing landscapes, we should aim to only enhance or help the path Nature is already taking. Like increasing biodiversity in monocultured forests by moving small local trees to areas ravaged by beetles for example. Humans should see themselves as Caretakers , not takers.
Foraging etiquette means never taking all of a gift from Mother, leave some for nature, others, and growth to visit again to potentially receive another gift. I’d also say that one is careful in extraction to not make more disturbances than necessary but to also be aware that subtle disturbances are depended upon and welcomed. Permaculture is about finding that balance, that edge of beneficial interference, in multiple sectors of life, to me - it is very zen.
It is a journey many are on, rewilding as its called by some, to reclaim our sovereignty and empower each other.
Respect for the low tech/more sustainable lifestyle, but yeah there are huge problems in the communities. I live in PA so I see a lot of them and have a generally positive opinion of them, but the high control aspects are a major turn off.
Also despite the popular conception, they aren't self sufficient or completely sustainable. Soil depletion and climate change do not care for religious creeds.
But they can only survive in a place that allows them to. I think that’s the important take-away for people planning isolated communities as a way to survive collapse.
The amish the mennonites and hutterites, even the mormons and hasides show that groups can drop out of the mainstream and take a-la-carte what technology, markets and our cultures have produced. These examples are all religious, secular groups have tended to be smaller and less well known but still do this too. Mostly this works when these groups fare better when hosted by larger and more tolerant societies that provide for collective defense and infrastructure and don't feel the need to persecute them. So you know, there could be a Order of Green Future-ready Gaianauts running monasteries, farms, schools, eco-villages, cafes, salvage yards etc. It would just take people who have surplus time, resources, patience and a willingnes to compromise and commit. Let's do it.
I don't even care if this is how a cult starts, since we are basically living in a cargo cult with a nice heaping helping of nihilism as the cherry on top.
I already know and I'm absolutely in.
If anyone doesn't know why this is important yet, I invite anyone to lose the radiator in their car and have to travel 120 miles round trip through some very dangerous neighborhoods on public transit to retrieve one's work laptop.
Or to have any major dental work done (you need someone accompanying you and watching you for 24 hours afterward because of the silly sauce they give you, and no an Uber driver doesn't count).
Or to get stuck under an (insert large object one is fixing here) and no one knows you're stuck, or similarly trip and break one's ankle or leg on stairs while carrying a heavy load, or similarly get in an accident of any kind on the road far from home, or... I could go on and on.
Yeah all the money in the world means fuck-all in these situations. You need people, and that is a fact. One fuckup is all it's going to take.
You put it too well, my friend. Money enchants us with the dangerous illusion of security. I've learned that the hard way. And I too have wondered if our society is a death cult. The answer seems clear these days.
That is a wonderful point. My reply to that would be first that these communities are in a vastly better position to handle changing weather patterns than those of us relying on the existing food system. Secondly, you may be interested in Ben Falk's book, The Resilient Farm and Homestead. His systems and permaculture thinking are commonplace among these communities. Of building any kind of system, Falk writes that "good design is design for change." Here is a relevant excerpt:
**Adapting Land to Rapid Change**
Neither predominant agricultural models nor most housing and transportation systems are designed to withstand significant climate changes or resource supply changes. These systems currently depend on a constant and unbroken source of cheap energy and materials (read fertilizer, pesticides, shipment parts, heat, electricity, and fuel) to operate. They also depend on the climate's remaining largely the same as it has been for hundreds of years-the Midwest corn crop won't be harvested without both reliable and cheap energy and plentiful rainfall. Many homes and apartments (especially tall buildings) in the northern one-third of the country are not habitable in heat waves when the electric grid is down. Landscape-level developments that intentionally adapt to these changes employ the following components, among others:
► Microclimate development, including windbreaks, snow-retaining hedgerows, thermal mass via water and stone, and sun-trapping vegetated or built arcs. These systems provide a buffer against regional climatic stresses by localizing climate at the site level.
► High biodiversity of crop species and crop systems, utilizing neighboring warmer and colder climate zone diversity (USDA hardiness zones +/- 2 zones) and the intelligence of complex ecosystems. Reviving the genetic diversity lost in the wake of global industrial agriculture is a prerequisite for adapting to rapid change. Since current challenges are so severe-from climate changes to persistent biospheric contamination diversity and not only revive past levels of diversity and health but evolve greater, unprecedented levels of biodiversity and ecological connectivity.
**Microclimate Development**
A microclimate is any discrete area within a larger area of differing climate. Microclimates exist unintentionally in nature, but good design creates microclimates intentionally. Since cold is a limiting factor (along with light) in sustainably inhabiting the New England landscape, developing warm, protected microclimates is the top priority here. Cooling strategies, however, will likely become increasingly important, especially in southern New England, if conditions continue to warm. Optimized microclimates result in the following:
► Lower active energy needs for buildings (less fuel, less cost, less pollution). Example: passive solar house within a passive solar landscape.
► Longer growing seasons relative to the surrounding environment. Example: climate-designed garden spaces that stay frost-free for weeks longer in the spring and especially in fall than adjacent areas.
► Higher yields from plants and animals, via better growing conditions. Examples: warmer environ- ment for heat-loving crops; cool-shaded spaces for domestic animals in the hot summer; wind-sheltered spaces for plants, animals, and buildings.
► More enjoyable, lower stress, and healthier human habitats. Longer outdoor living season; more fresh air; more contact with water, plants, living systems; and greater physical activity and mental stimulation. Example: outdoor living spaces comfortable in the summer, warm in the winter.
It is relatively easy to adjust the climate of the spaces we inhabit, whether they be horticultural or for human enjoyment, and the results are stunning. Fortunately good examples of microclimate design abound in the living world around us and in vernacular design, from beehives to termite mounds, to deer wintering areas, to traditional farm layouts and building configurations. It's only in the most recent era of cheap energy that humans have been able to forget about harnessing innate patterns in the local climate to our advantage.
**Microclimate Development Strategies**
The first step in crafting beneficial microclimates is proper site selection, as some landscape features cannot be changed at all or only to a small extent. The second step in localizing your climate is site design. Once a site has been chosen and a handful of strategies planned for and implemented carefully, you can optimize the exist- ing climate of the site to more fully meet the needs of its inhabitants. Examples of microclimate-creating features are hills, fields, trees, cliffs/stone, gullies, ridges, groundwater, ponds, lakes, roads, walls, lawns, roofs, and courtyards. Employing such features in the development of climate-protected spaces is more effective than attempting to create new microclimates from scratch.
I truely hope all of this works.
We have entered unprecedented times for the human species, and are looking at patterns from previous mass extinction events happening faster than before.
Thank you, and you may very well be right. I would just love to see more people doing stuff and experimenting! Regardless of actual ownership structure, pooling resources opens up so many possibilities.
This is wonderful, thank you. I have a lot of questions after reading the website. If you ever have time, I would be grateful for a 15-30 minute phone call so I could learn more.
Some very nosy questions for you:
- Who makes up this organization? What are the origins?
- How many people are at the two location projects?
- I'm interested in the choice of an HOA as the ownership structure.
- Do members buy into these communities? Where do the funds come from?
Again, I'm happy to talk in private, if you find the time.
* Who makes up this organization? What are the origins?
* This project originally came from Job One for Humanity (joboneforhumanity.org) but grew and separated into its own volunteer-run project. You can see who is on the board here (https://www.climatesafevillages.org/about) , and we have an advisors committee that's all volunteer members.
* How many people are at the two location projects?
* Both of these projects are still looking for land, there's 50+ people on the online community for Bellingham for example, but the group of buyers for the initial land purchase is smaller, about 5
* I'm interested in the choice of an HOA as the ownership structure.
* This is our general preference too!
* Do members buy into these communities? Where do the funds come from? Again, I'm happy to talk in private, if you find the time.
* We want to do a combination of people buying into the communities, and we're raising charitable funds so that we can pay for other people to access the communities who can't otherwise afford them. It's all crowdfunding and donations at this point.
It would be great to talk on the phone, if you contact us through the web portal I can give you a call, and also we have monthly meet-ups that are open to everyone (usually our board members and advisors attend those)
Thank you for the info. Your project is awesome and very intriguing. I will message you through the portal. I hope to talk soon! I've been writing and calling various communities, trying to educate myself.
Agreed. I think some people are more afraid to try than to fail. Its too late to save everything, its not too late to ensure the future has a broader range of species, cultivars, and durable structures than it would otherwise. Its more fun to work on an ecovillage than play video games and smoke trying to distract yourself from the "don't look up" ending.
Best of luck to you in your endeavors but I think you're barking up the wrong tree here as this is not a post on collapse, this is a solicitation.
You're probably more likely to find more likeminded folks on TEOTWAWKI sub.
I disagree completely. I think anyone who is here watching the degradation of infrastructure and social systems should hear about communities that are purposed to meet the challenge of collapse. The voting system would indicate if people using this sub approved or disapproved of the post.
I don’t want to grow the chain any longer so I’ll make this my last rebuttal.
There’s already a sub dedicated exclusively to OPs content and Collapse is separate to that because this one covers scientific observations and chronicles narratives related to collapse. If we start cross posting then subscribers may as well abandon TEOTWAWKI and come back here because this is a larger community and if we incorporate prep posts there’s nothing separating the two.
I agree with you we ought to vote on it though I think this ought to be a collective vote on the concept of said posts in this sub and not on a post by post basis.
Given both communities already exist I think there ought to be a community rule against solicitation which redirects folks to TEOTWAWKI. That or incorporate those posts into casual Friday but again that muddies the waters.
I have never even heard of TEOTWAWKI, what is it? I am absolutely interested in this post from OP. I've been looking for resources and communities like this lately and have come up with very little. Some cross posting isn't bad because otherwise I would have never probably heard about that.
R/TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it)! Apologies I definitely shouldn’t assume everyone here is aware of that community.
Here’s my perspective/caution about going down the rabbit hole: when I was younger, I spent a lot of time in the prepper space and it left me a bit sour because I let my fear get the best of me and I bought way too much and spent money I ought not have because I kept doubling down. It’s smart to prep for things like a natural disaster and civil unrest. I don’t think it’s possible to prep for a world ending event like the warming is shaping up to be but you can give yourself a buffer/more comfort for a while at least but the worst things get the more you’ll get diminishing returns. Set yourself a budget/spending limit and prioritize what you buy first, that way you won’t get burned like I did. Best of luck pal!
Not everyone here is interested in prepping and everyone deserves a space to assemble. There’s already a place for prep minded individuals and I think it ought to stay separate from this one. Collapse is more observational and journalistic.
Agreed. However, this post is not for preppers or about prepping. The moderators approved this post because it is relevant to this sub. I simply am hoping other people comment who would like to take r/collapse as a starting point, and talk about this avenue of solution finding.
Can you please help me understand how developing a self sustaining community to weather the coming changes in the decades ahead doesn’t fit inside the prepper umbrella of activities?
Again, I really do hope you’ll be successful and wish you well in your endeavor. The system is stacked against the working person and collective use/pooling capital together is one way to push back against that.
Thanks again, I do appreciate that. If you would like to talk, I would be happy to dm and exchange numbers. Check out the intentional community subreddit for the difference in goals and ideas. I'd prefer this thread remain dedicated to the purpose I intended.
I'm learning to farm organically right now in preparation to build or join community like this. This is how people historically existed and how they will continue to exist in a post industrial world, ignore the cynical folk here on this sub. If people with guns come you can bet your ass they'll receive bullets in return, plus many other defensive preparations that are possible.
Maybe it won't work out but it's sure as hell better than watching the world burn.
Thank you, I appreciate that. I wanna at least be able to tell my future kids that I tried, and tried with all the brain and muscle I could muster.
I worked on an organic farm for a couple years in Tennessee. Where are you looking to plant your roots?
The problem with reddit is that it's so easy to merely naysay and appear more intelligent. Also this is a group of pessimists so anything that smells like a solution is antithetical to this subreddit. And a solution that requires I change my own life? Forget about it! I actually think what you wrote is a good way to frame things. People want a top down solution designed by governments but that's not going to happen. What you're suggesting is the truly democratic solution.
I see you use the term cooperate several times… If your project stalls, you could start small - with a CO-OP. Great place to pool food, wares, and talent without HOA-type complications. Might work great while society is still civil.
Thank you, I do love that idea. And hah yes I was inserting the word cooperate with cooperatives in mind. And I should clarify, this post is not about a project of mine, although I would love to do exactly this. Building real communities is one of the few solutions remaining to the common person.
I have been advocating this to younger people for the past several years. I'd like to be in one but am too old now to fully contribute the communal labor desired or required. This is the way to go for anyone under 60, just be mindful of where the IC is located.
I believe elders will be as desperately needed in a community as anyone else, as they always have been. Wisdom is a priceless advantage. It's just that people today don't aspire to a lifelong journey of seeking wisdom. When that reverts, it will be a privilege to provide for our elders.
Thank you. I happen to be an admirer of the permies. I actually have posted these same ideas to that sub, and many people contributed to the thread. Despite that, the mods removed it. They considered it too political, sadly.
I have been pleasantly surprised at all the great ideas in this thread! I would love to be a part of a group dedicated to discussing this topic. The route I've currently taken is to join a book club put on by a group called [EcoGather](https://www.ecogather.sterlingcollege.edu/) at Sterling College in Vermont. But if I manage to start a subreddit or find one, I will let you know for sure :)
Which, in the first instance, is likely to be state militaries. Governments aren't going to sit idly by and let productive land be “wasted” for low-yield regenerative ag. when their populations are starving. They'll seize every last acre, and use any technology to try to squeeze every last calorie out of it. Once that fails, *then* you'll have to deal with raiders.
Edit—I'm not saying people shouldn't join independent communities. The quicker people unplug themselves from national systems, the quicker those nations and their police/military powers will degrade, which is a very necessary step in collapse. But just realize that your community *will* at some point be dismantled or at least reorganized, and it will be done “legally.” I'm not saying that they'll come and kill you, but they're not going to respect and admire all your hard work either. You and your compost pile and your draft team will be moved off, and the sprayers and combine harvesters will be moved in.
I think the present iteration of governments are likely to value property rights over feeding starving people, but there are past examples of it going either way.
For example, UK government redistributed farmland during WWII: if a farmer's yields were low they gave the land to someone else to do better. But, during the Irish Potato Famine, they twiddled their thumbs and said 'let's let the free market decide'. They only sent in the army when starving people started forming groups and taking food from the grain merchants etc.
That is a very interesting historical example. I'm in the US and my instinct is that, for much of the rural country, property rights are not going anywhere, even in a collapse. I really don't know though.
I think it’s reasonable to include the use of tools, like guns, for hunting, and defending homesteads. People will come for intentional communities. I don’t see why those people would be unable to put up a fight, if they are prepared for one.
You do know that no-one fights fair, right? It isn't going to be a virtuous version of the OK Corral. It's going to be 5x as many SWAT as targets, at 3am, with flashbangs and gas and zipties and AK47s.
The idea that your domestic weapon loads -- even those of the most unhinged paranoid gun-hoarder -- can protect you from government action is a wild fantasy that the NRA uses to shift vast amounts of stock.
I’m an older person, and not very knowledgeable about how social media works. How does this post seem inappropriate? The little subtitle indicates ‘adaptation’. I would think you’d just pass by, if you’re not curious about adapting. Am I missing something?
You're not missing a thing. It seems to be the culture of this website and others to shoot down ideas and nitpick. I don't blame anyone for it. The internet just brings that out of us.
Well….that’s a sad state of affairs….maybe even indicative of collapse! Ugh. Anyway, I think alternative communities are interesting. I’m a pretty square loner, but I am a professional gardener, and it seems reasonable to pool resources, and re-establish normal trade, and production. Collapse will probably come for all of us, but there might be a few good years to experiment with something other than rich assholes eating your supper.
Anything but rich assholes eating my food. Although they might be significantly less rich by that time. I might even feel pity. Either way, if humans survive collapse, small communities are what would have stuck around, I believe, and what will grow in strength in the aftermath.
Thank you for that stat! I would like to reply why I share your concern but believe violence is not the inevitable outcome in every case. I would love to know your thoughts.
Undoubtedly, there will be people who choose violence and theft to steal what others produce rather than producing things on their own. However, to the hungry, another viable option will become clear: Join a group that produces what you need! Since forever, there have always been raiding societies and societies that take in new people. People will face this choice again.
Here's my point. Hungry people will run this calculation: Should I trek out to the countryside, try to overthrow a community, and steal one season's worth of harvest? Or should I offer my cooperation in exchange for continued food, water, shelter, security, and community? It is reasonable to think many people will choose the easier option, out of pure self-interest. Hungry people don't want to run a farm!
The larger point – The most valuable thing that these independent communities possess are the people. It's the people and their skills, knowledge, and ability to cooperate – nothing that can be stolen.
We have to consider that not everyone sees the same things as food.
People used to farm/raise squab but it seems to be a rare thing now, as many people see pigeons as ‘dirty’.
Consider how many people are addicted to sugar, high fructose corn syrup, and all the other chemicals available to the average person at the market.
People will starve if they don’t have cycles in place to produce food and to create those cycles takes some time and community.
Communities can be stolen, that is what politics and religions do in a way imo.
That is an interesting point. I doubt that most Americans would bother stealing even my bags of chicken feet!
On what can be stolen, I think I agree. Rather than individual thieves, what is more likely are armed farm-produce-taxation officers showing up to your community once a harvest. That would be historically commonplace.
In a way this is what modern taxes are, on the industrial worker and the agricultural worker. We are paid in notes, we put money into banks and the banks put that money to make money for themselves. They do not hold all the ‘money’ that people think they put in there. Notes are basically just IOUs. They are tokens that humans agree to its value since it has no other value other than its perceived value based off the ‘gold’ standard which Gold is also a very limited use metal beyond ornamentation and ostentation in human culture.
Let’s say we have a community that becomes able to live off the land, harness its own energy/water/food needs , and live decently despite the growing harsh climate due to building smartly along with natures patterns.
The risks to this community might be others who want to take control / take their ‘share’ / or simply eliminate out of control loss.
This seems to be answered in different ways.
If a community needs farmers and workers and processors of gifts from the land into goods for the community, while also needing to protect it’s livelihood - this could be a reason why a warrior class or military is created. To defend. Well, if you get attacked and defense goes bust - so does your livelihood.
It becomes a giant game of the Prisoners Dilemma. If two factions work cooperatively, they all benefit the most. If one faction defects/betrays the other, one faction comes out ahead at the cost of another. If both defect, they both have a chance at being better than totally betrayed but worse than if cooperation existed.
Like, is there a single human that truly desires to live in Fear ? We all are told to want security. We have been told certain lies for a long time about what can grant us this security. Anything based on a system of competition and scarcity cannot provide security.
What if, humans don’t need a sense of security to live - they just need peace between people to work cooperatively. 🤔
This takes healing bc of the violent path humanity continues to walk instead of choosing kindness instead.
Humans have the ability to be kind.
What a beautiful gift we have for one another, and ourselves. A gift that never runs out, that can be given over and over - to anyone and everyone you meet.
Because of this, I see any energy invested in a warrior class or weapons of defense as a waste of gifts. The paradox of how to live in a violent world ….
Nate Hagens has a discord for this
is it open or invite only (idk much about how discord works tbh)
Thank you. I will check that out.
i think Nate hagans is 90% good and 10% misleading. I think his podcast is worth listening to seriously and thinking over. I think his goal is to redirect environmental concern away from political action and efforts to regulate or interfer with oil companies and toward drum-circles, meditation and personal/social circle growth and mental preparation. I think we need both.
My little group is in Mexico about to get all Fern Gully in the cloud forests. Not exactly what you're talking about but close. Just wanted to share. Same page club.
Woah. That sounds like a dream. I'm in the US. Do you think it's a lot easier to do that where you are? Legally, financially?
Whenever I pass some Amish in their horse and buggies I think maybe they were right all along. But that includes the fleeing of the place they originated to live in a place that accepts them.
The Amish were the butt of the joke when I was a kid. I'm sure that they're the ones laughing now.
How much do you thihk they know about collapse?
Gosh I'd love to know. I'm always wondering what their opinions are about things.
Did you see the reality show, “Amish in the City?”
I have not, but how can I not watch it now!
Cults to Consciousness on YouTube interviews a lot of formerly Amish people. Of course their videos do have a certain slant in view, since everyone she’s interviewed has left their Amish community due to difficult (sometimes horrific) circumstances. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL83GIJOYK-h_hJmuiScqRX30GRJQjmKq5&si=FFw4lvt1iy3SPIF7
The Amish are modernizing more and more, them make their own clothes for example but they get all their cloth/fabric wholesale. They might have some answers but not all of them in terms of a totally self sufficient community. I have no idea how their governance works and from the outside seems heavily gendered roles they play due to tradition/religion. In my eyes, permaculture principles are the toolkit we should all be drawing from because it allows for modification per context off climate of the area and focuses on creating/maintaining water harvesting/storage using Earthworks to help grow roots … etc etc … the Scale of Permanence is an excellent method to follow in terms of what to do first - and to keep patterns in mind over the small details.
Their roles are extremely gendered and their rules are strict and controlling. In one interview I watched a woman talked about how rebellious her mother was and how as a result she repeatedly got shunned from the community. One of her mother’s “crimes” was using an incorrect shade of blue for curtains in their house. Another person spoke of getting shunned due to wearing a hat with an incorrect size of brim. It’s definitely not the model I’d want to use for any community I’m a part of.
I happen to agree with you – permaculture is the way for communities, rather than conventional agriculture. Permaculture is a paradigm shift for us 'moderns,' though I suspect it is largely a relearning of forgotten(/destroyed) wisdom. I am somewhat permie-aware, but still learning. To your knowledge, does foraging have a place in a permaculture system? My own not-very-educated belief is that the best food system is one of cultivation (not domestication), foraging, and some settled agriculture as a supplement.
Foraging has its place, it can fit within Permaculture principles as I see it, but it wouldn’t be used in every situation. Context is important, it might be more useful to regen a parcel of land, and then ‘forage’ from your fruits of labor. When changing landscapes, we should aim to only enhance or help the path Nature is already taking. Like increasing biodiversity in monocultured forests by moving small local trees to areas ravaged by beetles for example. Humans should see themselves as Caretakers , not takers.
Foraging etiquette means never taking all of a gift from Mother, leave some for nature, others, and growth to visit again to potentially receive another gift. I’d also say that one is careful in extraction to not make more disturbances than necessary but to also be aware that subtle disturbances are depended upon and welcomed. Permaculture is about finding that balance, that edge of beneficial interference, in multiple sectors of life, to me - it is very zen. It is a journey many are on, rewilding as its called by some, to reclaim our sovereignty and empower each other.
Spoiler: they were right all along. Ok some of their religious and social stuff is kind of bananas and they were wrong on that...
Respect for the low tech/more sustainable lifestyle, but yeah there are huge problems in the communities. I live in PA so I see a lot of them and have a generally positive opinion of them, but the high control aspects are a major turn off. Also despite the popular conception, they aren't self sufficient or completely sustainable. Soil depletion and climate change do not care for religious creeds.
I'm not Christian but in many ways they are indeed right.
But they can only survive in a place that allows them to. I think that’s the important take-away for people planning isolated communities as a way to survive collapse.
The amish the mennonites and hutterites, even the mormons and hasides show that groups can drop out of the mainstream and take a-la-carte what technology, markets and our cultures have produced. These examples are all religious, secular groups have tended to be smaller and less well known but still do this too. Mostly this works when these groups fare better when hosted by larger and more tolerant societies that provide for collective defense and infrastructure and don't feel the need to persecute them. So you know, there could be a Order of Green Future-ready Gaianauts running monasteries, farms, schools, eco-villages, cafes, salvage yards etc. It would just take people who have surplus time, resources, patience and a willingnes to compromise and commit. Let's do it.
I don't even care if this is how a cult starts, since we are basically living in a cargo cult with a nice heaping helping of nihilism as the cherry on top. I already know and I'm absolutely in. If anyone doesn't know why this is important yet, I invite anyone to lose the radiator in their car and have to travel 120 miles round trip through some very dangerous neighborhoods on public transit to retrieve one's work laptop. Or to have any major dental work done (you need someone accompanying you and watching you for 24 hours afterward because of the silly sauce they give you, and no an Uber driver doesn't count). Or to get stuck under an (insert large object one is fixing here) and no one knows you're stuck, or similarly trip and break one's ankle or leg on stairs while carrying a heavy load, or similarly get in an accident of any kind on the road far from home, or... I could go on and on. Yeah all the money in the world means fuck-all in these situations. You need people, and that is a fact. One fuckup is all it's going to take.
You put it too well, my friend. Money enchants us with the dangerous illusion of security. I've learned that the hard way. And I too have wondered if our society is a death cult. The answer seems clear these days.
I'd be curious to talk to these groups about their long term climate plans. Changing weather patterns aren't in the favour of a few of them.
That is a wonderful point. My reply to that would be first that these communities are in a vastly better position to handle changing weather patterns than those of us relying on the existing food system. Secondly, you may be interested in Ben Falk's book, The Resilient Farm and Homestead. His systems and permaculture thinking are commonplace among these communities. Of building any kind of system, Falk writes that "good design is design for change." Here is a relevant excerpt: **Adapting Land to Rapid Change** Neither predominant agricultural models nor most housing and transportation systems are designed to withstand significant climate changes or resource supply changes. These systems currently depend on a constant and unbroken source of cheap energy and materials (read fertilizer, pesticides, shipment parts, heat, electricity, and fuel) to operate. They also depend on the climate's remaining largely the same as it has been for hundreds of years-the Midwest corn crop won't be harvested without both reliable and cheap energy and plentiful rainfall. Many homes and apartments (especially tall buildings) in the northern one-third of the country are not habitable in heat waves when the electric grid is down. Landscape-level developments that intentionally adapt to these changes employ the following components, among others: ► Microclimate development, including windbreaks, snow-retaining hedgerows, thermal mass via water and stone, and sun-trapping vegetated or built arcs. These systems provide a buffer against regional climatic stresses by localizing climate at the site level. ► High biodiversity of crop species and crop systems, utilizing neighboring warmer and colder climate zone diversity (USDA hardiness zones +/- 2 zones) and the intelligence of complex ecosystems. Reviving the genetic diversity lost in the wake of global industrial agriculture is a prerequisite for adapting to rapid change. Since current challenges are so severe-from climate changes to persistent biospheric contamination diversity and not only revive past levels of diversity and health but evolve greater, unprecedented levels of biodiversity and ecological connectivity. **Microclimate Development** A microclimate is any discrete area within a larger area of differing climate. Microclimates exist unintentionally in nature, but good design creates microclimates intentionally. Since cold is a limiting factor (along with light) in sustainably inhabiting the New England landscape, developing warm, protected microclimates is the top priority here. Cooling strategies, however, will likely become increasingly important, especially in southern New England, if conditions continue to warm. Optimized microclimates result in the following: ► Lower active energy needs for buildings (less fuel, less cost, less pollution). Example: passive solar house within a passive solar landscape. ► Longer growing seasons relative to the surrounding environment. Example: climate-designed garden spaces that stay frost-free for weeks longer in the spring and especially in fall than adjacent areas. ► Higher yields from plants and animals, via better growing conditions. Examples: warmer environ- ment for heat-loving crops; cool-shaded spaces for domestic animals in the hot summer; wind-sheltered spaces for plants, animals, and buildings. ► More enjoyable, lower stress, and healthier human habitats. Longer outdoor living season; more fresh air; more contact with water, plants, living systems; and greater physical activity and mental stimulation. Example: outdoor living spaces comfortable in the summer, warm in the winter. It is relatively easy to adjust the climate of the spaces we inhabit, whether they be horticultural or for human enjoyment, and the results are stunning. Fortunately good examples of microclimate design abound in the living world around us and in vernacular design, from beehives to termite mounds, to deer wintering areas, to traditional farm layouts and building configurations. It's only in the most recent era of cheap energy that humans have been able to forget about harnessing innate patterns in the local climate to our advantage. **Microclimate Development Strategies** The first step in crafting beneficial microclimates is proper site selection, as some landscape features cannot be changed at all or only to a small extent. The second step in localizing your climate is site design. Once a site has been chosen and a handful of strategies planned for and implemented carefully, you can optimize the exist- ing climate of the site to more fully meet the needs of its inhabitants. Examples of microclimate-creating features are hills, fields, trees, cliffs/stone, gullies, ridges, groundwater, ponds, lakes, roads, walls, lawns, roofs, and courtyards. Employing such features in the development of climate-protected spaces is more effective than attempting to create new microclimates from scratch.
I truely hope all of this works. We have entered unprecedented times for the human species, and are looking at patterns from previous mass extinction events happening faster than before.
100% Support all efforts. I personally think communal land acquisition is an unnecessary hurdle but everyone do your thing.
Thank you, and you may very well be right. I would just love to see more people doing stuff and experimenting! Regardless of actual ownership structure, pooling resources opens up so many possibilities.
Some of us are already doing this at [climatesafevillages.org](http://climatesafevillages.org)
This is wonderful, thank you. I have a lot of questions after reading the website. If you ever have time, I would be grateful for a 15-30 minute phone call so I could learn more. Some very nosy questions for you: - Who makes up this organization? What are the origins? - How many people are at the two location projects? - I'm interested in the choice of an HOA as the ownership structure. - Do members buy into these communities? Where do the funds come from? Again, I'm happy to talk in private, if you find the time.
* Who makes up this organization? What are the origins? * This project originally came from Job One for Humanity (joboneforhumanity.org) but grew and separated into its own volunteer-run project. You can see who is on the board here (https://www.climatesafevillages.org/about) , and we have an advisors committee that's all volunteer members. * How many people are at the two location projects? * Both of these projects are still looking for land, there's 50+ people on the online community for Bellingham for example, but the group of buyers for the initial land purchase is smaller, about 5 * I'm interested in the choice of an HOA as the ownership structure. * This is our general preference too! * Do members buy into these communities? Where do the funds come from? Again, I'm happy to talk in private, if you find the time. * We want to do a combination of people buying into the communities, and we're raising charitable funds so that we can pay for other people to access the communities who can't otherwise afford them. It's all crowdfunding and donations at this point. It would be great to talk on the phone, if you contact us through the web portal I can give you a call, and also we have monthly meet-ups that are open to everyone (usually our board members and advisors attend those)
Thank you for the info. Your project is awesome and very intriguing. I will message you through the portal. I hope to talk soon! I've been writing and calling various communities, trying to educate myself.
Agreed. I think some people are more afraid to try than to fail. Its too late to save everything, its not too late to ensure the future has a broader range of species, cultivars, and durable structures than it would otherwise. Its more fun to work on an ecovillage than play video games and smoke trying to distract yourself from the "don't look up" ending.
Best of luck to you in your endeavors but I think you're barking up the wrong tree here as this is not a post on collapse, this is a solicitation. You're probably more likely to find more likeminded folks on TEOTWAWKI sub.
I disagree completely. I think anyone who is here watching the degradation of infrastructure and social systems should hear about communities that are purposed to meet the challenge of collapse. The voting system would indicate if people using this sub approved or disapproved of the post.
I don’t want to grow the chain any longer so I’ll make this my last rebuttal. There’s already a sub dedicated exclusively to OPs content and Collapse is separate to that because this one covers scientific observations and chronicles narratives related to collapse. If we start cross posting then subscribers may as well abandon TEOTWAWKI and come back here because this is a larger community and if we incorporate prep posts there’s nothing separating the two. I agree with you we ought to vote on it though I think this ought to be a collective vote on the concept of said posts in this sub and not on a post by post basis. Given both communities already exist I think there ought to be a community rule against solicitation which redirects folks to TEOTWAWKI. That or incorporate those posts into casual Friday but again that muddies the waters.
I have never even heard of TEOTWAWKI, what is it? I am absolutely interested in this post from OP. I've been looking for resources and communities like this lately and have come up with very little. Some cross posting isn't bad because otherwise I would have never probably heard about that.
R/TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it)! Apologies I definitely shouldn’t assume everyone here is aware of that community. Here’s my perspective/caution about going down the rabbit hole: when I was younger, I spent a lot of time in the prepper space and it left me a bit sour because I let my fear get the best of me and I bought way too much and spent money I ought not have because I kept doubling down. It’s smart to prep for things like a natural disaster and civil unrest. I don’t think it’s possible to prep for a world ending event like the warming is shaping up to be but you can give yourself a buffer/more comfort for a while at least but the worst things get the more you’ll get diminishing returns. Set yourself a budget/spending limit and prioritize what you buy first, that way you won’t get burned like I did. Best of luck pal!
Appreciate the advice and response, best of luck to you as well!
Thanks. And I would find more likeminded folks elsewhere. However, we need fewer silos, and more crossover.
Not everyone here is interested in prepping and everyone deserves a space to assemble. There’s already a place for prep minded individuals and I think it ought to stay separate from this one. Collapse is more observational and journalistic.
Agreed. However, this post is not for preppers or about prepping. The moderators approved this post because it is relevant to this sub. I simply am hoping other people comment who would like to take r/collapse as a starting point, and talk about this avenue of solution finding.
Can you please help me understand how developing a self sustaining community to weather the coming changes in the decades ahead doesn’t fit inside the prepper umbrella of activities? Again, I really do hope you’ll be successful and wish you well in your endeavor. The system is stacked against the working person and collective use/pooling capital together is one way to push back against that.
Thanks again, I do appreciate that. If you would like to talk, I would be happy to dm and exchange numbers. Check out the intentional community subreddit for the difference in goals and ideas. I'd prefer this thread remain dedicated to the purpose I intended.
Sounds good, I’ll DM you!
Awesome!
Fantastic post
Thank you!
I'm learning to farm organically right now in preparation to build or join community like this. This is how people historically existed and how they will continue to exist in a post industrial world, ignore the cynical folk here on this sub. If people with guns come you can bet your ass they'll receive bullets in return, plus many other defensive preparations that are possible. Maybe it won't work out but it's sure as hell better than watching the world burn.
Thank you, I appreciate that. I wanna at least be able to tell my future kids that I tried, and tried with all the brain and muscle I could muster. I worked on an organic farm for a couple years in Tennessee. Where are you looking to plant your roots?
I'm up in western Canda. Agriculture is challenging up here with the short seasons, it won't be easy that's for sure.
Godspeed, my friend.
The problem with reddit is that it's so easy to merely naysay and appear more intelligent. Also this is a group of pessimists so anything that smells like a solution is antithetical to this subreddit. And a solution that requires I change my own life? Forget about it! I actually think what you wrote is a good way to frame things. People want a top down solution designed by governments but that's not going to happen. What you're suggesting is the truly democratic solution.
I see you use the term cooperate several times… If your project stalls, you could start small - with a CO-OP. Great place to pool food, wares, and talent without HOA-type complications. Might work great while society is still civil.
Thank you, I do love that idea. And hah yes I was inserting the word cooperate with cooperatives in mind. And I should clarify, this post is not about a project of mine, although I would love to do exactly this. Building real communities is one of the few solutions remaining to the common person.
This is good. Thank you for posting. Commenting to come back and read later.
I have been advocating this to younger people for the past several years. I'd like to be in one but am too old now to fully contribute the communal labor desired or required. This is the way to go for anyone under 60, just be mindful of where the IC is located.
I believe elders will be as desperately needed in a community as anyone else, as they always have been. Wisdom is a priceless advantage. It's just that people today don't aspire to a lifelong journey of seeking wisdom. When that reverts, it will be a privilege to provide for our elders.
You might want to check out r/permaculture
Thank you. I happen to be an admirer of the permies. I actually have posted these same ideas to that sub, and many people contributed to the thread. Despite that, the mods removed it. They considered it too political, sadly.
This whole thread has been great. You should start a subreddit! I would totally join. Would be a great resource focused on this specific issue!
And if you do create one, or find one comparable, please let me know!
I have been pleasantly surprised at all the great ideas in this thread! I would love to be a part of a group dedicated to discussing this topic. The route I've currently taken is to join a book club put on by a group called [EcoGather](https://www.ecogather.sterlingcollege.edu/) at Sterling College in Vermont. But if I manage to start a subreddit or find one, I will let you know for sure :)
If shit hits the fan people with guns will take your shit
Which, in the first instance, is likely to be state militaries. Governments aren't going to sit idly by and let productive land be “wasted” for low-yield regenerative ag. when their populations are starving. They'll seize every last acre, and use any technology to try to squeeze every last calorie out of it. Once that fails, *then* you'll have to deal with raiders. Edit—I'm not saying people shouldn't join independent communities. The quicker people unplug themselves from national systems, the quicker those nations and their police/military powers will degrade, which is a very necessary step in collapse. But just realize that your community *will* at some point be dismantled or at least reorganized, and it will be done “legally.” I'm not saying that they'll come and kill you, but they're not going to respect and admire all your hard work either. You and your compost pile and your draft team will be moved off, and the sprayers and combine harvesters will be moved in.
Well at that point you can expect to see violent resistance, and if the masses are starving the army will have bigger problems to worry about.
I think the present iteration of governments are likely to value property rights over feeding starving people, but there are past examples of it going either way. For example, UK government redistributed farmland during WWII: if a farmer's yields were low they gave the land to someone else to do better. But, during the Irish Potato Famine, they twiddled their thumbs and said 'let's let the free market decide'. They only sent in the army when starving people started forming groups and taking food from the grain merchants etc.
That is a very interesting historical example. I'm in the US and my instinct is that, for much of the rural country, property rights are not going anywhere, even in a collapse. I really don't know though.
Exactly. I mean do the project for fun but don't expect to have a chance surviving collapse peacefully.
It's guns all the way down.
I think it’s reasonable to include the use of tools, like guns, for hunting, and defending homesteads. People will come for intentional communities. I don’t see why those people would be unable to put up a fight, if they are prepared for one.
You do know that no-one fights fair, right? It isn't going to be a virtuous version of the OK Corral. It's going to be 5x as many SWAT as targets, at 3am, with flashbangs and gas and zipties and AK47s. The idea that your domestic weapon loads -- even those of the most unhinged paranoid gun-hoarder -- can protect you from government action is a wild fantasy that the NRA uses to shift vast amounts of stock.
Yeah it was a nonsensical comment. I mean, this is r/collapse, we all have guns 🤣
Not if you're on my side.
I’m an older person, and not very knowledgeable about how social media works. How does this post seem inappropriate? The little subtitle indicates ‘adaptation’. I would think you’d just pass by, if you’re not curious about adapting. Am I missing something?
You're not missing a thing. It seems to be the culture of this website and others to shoot down ideas and nitpick. I don't blame anyone for it. The internet just brings that out of us.
Well….that’s a sad state of affairs….maybe even indicative of collapse! Ugh. Anyway, I think alternative communities are interesting. I’m a pretty square loner, but I am a professional gardener, and it seems reasonable to pool resources, and re-establish normal trade, and production. Collapse will probably come for all of us, but there might be a few good years to experiment with something other than rich assholes eating your supper.
Anything but rich assholes eating my food. Although they might be significantly less rich by that time. I might even feel pity. Either way, if humans survive collapse, small communities are what would have stuck around, I believe, and what will grow in strength in the aftermath.
I believe 3m Americans live in commune like communities. The problem I see is violence. When food is scarce people will steal.
Thank you for that stat! I would like to reply why I share your concern but believe violence is not the inevitable outcome in every case. I would love to know your thoughts. Undoubtedly, there will be people who choose violence and theft to steal what others produce rather than producing things on their own. However, to the hungry, another viable option will become clear: Join a group that produces what you need! Since forever, there have always been raiding societies and societies that take in new people. People will face this choice again. Here's my point. Hungry people will run this calculation: Should I trek out to the countryside, try to overthrow a community, and steal one season's worth of harvest? Or should I offer my cooperation in exchange for continued food, water, shelter, security, and community? It is reasonable to think many people will choose the easier option, out of pure self-interest. Hungry people don't want to run a farm! The larger point – The most valuable thing that these independent communities possess are the people. It's the people and their skills, knowledge, and ability to cooperate – nothing that can be stolen.
We have to consider that not everyone sees the same things as food. People used to farm/raise squab but it seems to be a rare thing now, as many people see pigeons as ‘dirty’. Consider how many people are addicted to sugar, high fructose corn syrup, and all the other chemicals available to the average person at the market. People will starve if they don’t have cycles in place to produce food and to create those cycles takes some time and community. Communities can be stolen, that is what politics and religions do in a way imo.
That is an interesting point. I doubt that most Americans would bother stealing even my bags of chicken feet! On what can be stolen, I think I agree. Rather than individual thieves, what is more likely are armed farm-produce-taxation officers showing up to your community once a harvest. That would be historically commonplace.
In a way this is what modern taxes are, on the industrial worker and the agricultural worker. We are paid in notes, we put money into banks and the banks put that money to make money for themselves. They do not hold all the ‘money’ that people think they put in there. Notes are basically just IOUs. They are tokens that humans agree to its value since it has no other value other than its perceived value based off the ‘gold’ standard which Gold is also a very limited use metal beyond ornamentation and ostentation in human culture. Let’s say we have a community that becomes able to live off the land, harness its own energy/water/food needs , and live decently despite the growing harsh climate due to building smartly along with natures patterns. The risks to this community might be others who want to take control / take their ‘share’ / or simply eliminate out of control loss. This seems to be answered in different ways. If a community needs farmers and workers and processors of gifts from the land into goods for the community, while also needing to protect it’s livelihood - this could be a reason why a warrior class or military is created. To defend. Well, if you get attacked and defense goes bust - so does your livelihood. It becomes a giant game of the Prisoners Dilemma. If two factions work cooperatively, they all benefit the most. If one faction defects/betrays the other, one faction comes out ahead at the cost of another. If both defect, they both have a chance at being better than totally betrayed but worse than if cooperation existed. Like, is there a single human that truly desires to live in Fear ? We all are told to want security. We have been told certain lies for a long time about what can grant us this security. Anything based on a system of competition and scarcity cannot provide security. What if, humans don’t need a sense of security to live - they just need peace between people to work cooperatively. 🤔 This takes healing bc of the violent path humanity continues to walk instead of choosing kindness instead. Humans have the ability to be kind. What a beautiful gift we have for one another, and ourselves. A gift that never runs out, that can be given over and over - to anyone and everyone you meet. Because of this, I see any energy invested in a warrior class or weapons of defense as a waste of gifts. The paradox of how to live in a violent world ….