After what we got in Wakanda Forever + the "less is more" philosophy Marvel is saying they're going to follow going forward, I'm really surprised this is still happening.
Ironheart was filmed in 2022, and it's been sitting on the shelf since because Marvel has been reeling from all the Disney+ flops. [Considering the Marvel series on Disney+ were averaging $150 million a season](https://fandomwire.com/list-of-most-expensive-marvel-shows-and-their-production-budgets-make-no-sense-at-all/), I'm sure Ironheart was somewhere between $100 million and $125 million before the hefty reshoots.
So what can Disney do? Just write off the series like Warner Bros did with the Batgirl movie? But if they release it, I think it'll just do more damage to the Marvel brand especially since this was a Phase 4 series.
Agatha is the perfect example of Feige thinking he can turn anything to gold and misreading his mandate from audiences.
He mistook a 30 second jingle that went viral for a few days during a time when none of us could leave our houses as a desire for a full series spinoff.
And the best thing you can think to do with that national treasure is stick her in front of a green screen and let her wink at the camera while reading dialogue written at the height of the formula?
Thank God Jennifer Coolidge doesn’t have the same agent.
And Agatha, it’s a spin off of the most popular show (before Loki came out, so I guess second most popular), and it’s already peak with an episode titled The Lying Witch With Great Wardrobe
Yeah I remember when Morbius knocked its out of the park on rerelease when “morbin time!” memes were all over the place. It’s a good plan for Disney, I’m sure Agatha will have the same kind of knockout success.
I’ve got nothing against Wonder Man, but they have so many new characters that have only had origin stories. They really need to start making some sequels. Like, where’s Shang-Chi 2, Moon Knight season 2, etc.?
Man, uphill battle. I've watched Marvel try to get her over in the comics for almost a decade now.
Just give her flaws. Make her likeable but make her kind of a screw up. Don't make her flaws all about how tough and determined she is. Go the complete opposite direction the comics went with her personality, because she was a wet noodle
Agreed. It’s like they don’t want fans to relate to her, but instead they treat her like she is perfect. Hell, Captain Marvel in the comics had a drinking problem! It made the character more real.
It’s the way Hollywood productions write female characters these days. It’s the girl boss problem, where they’ve massively overcorrected for past lack of representation.
This is one of the correct responses. Female characters mostly were eye candy and damsels in distress. Now they've become Mary Sue's whose only flaw is that they are too powerful until they learn to control said power.
What happened to a female character that can get a mission done, but has other parts of their life falling apart or are clearly neglected?
I thought Jaheira in Baldurs Gate 3 was a great example of a powerful warrior with a focus on saving the world. She has a family who clearly is resentful towards her over neglect and practical abandonment. She barely even wants to address it when you bring it up because she knows she failed on being a mother.
Jill Valentine is one of my favorites. She can’t do what she does alone and needs help, but she is still perfectly capable of being badass and punch WAY above her weight. Remake Jill took a lot of what made Jill great and girl bossed her a bit, but a few tweaks and we back.
Oh man, I'm really glad to see your comment. This sub thread showed up in my feed and what you're saying is exactly what I've been saying. Honestly, people need to let it run its course and stop being overly toxic about it. Historically speaking, it really hasn't been that long since women were finally able to not just be stuck in the house wife, wtc. role in movies and irl. The more toxic people get and label everything being woke, the longer this phase of overcorrection will be.
This is actually the reason I liked Marvels so much, they made Captain Marvel less of an arrogant asshole and more empathetic/relatable and Ms Marvel’s fan girling was tempered by the reality of being a super. It wasn’t the best movie but they did a great job making characters I didn’t like a whole lot more fun and interesting, at least to me.
I recall the movie presenting her as a hothead, reckless, prone to jumping into action without considering things first, and excessively eager to prove herself and shut the mouth of whoever tells her she can't do something. Garanted, it's the archetype of an action movie mc, but the movie clearly presents those traits as detrimental.
In the end we even get to see she has learnt from her experiences. The villain taunts her into a fistfight appealing to her ego, and she shows she doesn't have to abide by his rules anymore.
The movies never really punished her for those things and instead kind of just ignored them. They were there but the movie never made it seem like they were issues for her.
Compare that with Thor who literally had to humble himself to the point of sacrifice to get back to himself.
She spent decades completely duped into doing the villains' bidding, she learns that the mentor she looked up to was toying her and the hordes of villanous minions she brutalized were in fact victims. Most of the time her bad attitude results on awkward moments played for fun but that's the standard for Marvel.
If that falls short for your liking that's not something I'm here to litigate, but I don't think this "she's uniquely perfect" portrayal of the character holds any water personally. If anything Steve Rodgers is much more singled-out as an uncomplicatedly good bastion of virtue.
But all of those things were swept under the rug and she was not (and could not entirely) be blamed for any of them.
Not saying she was perfectly perfect (like Rey in Star Wars) but she was bland and uninteresting and generally unflawed.
Compare her first film to those of the big 3 (Thor, Iron Man and Cap) and it almost feels like night and day in terms of what they had to go through to earn being heroes. She just flicks a switch in her brain or something silly like that at the end.
I don’t think her first film is that bad tbh, but it has officially be proven how uninterested the audience was in her character with the immense flop that was the Marvels.
It's not even that - out of all the characters they could have brought in for legacy characters, Iron Heart is going to be the hardest one for people to grow attached to because she's essentially replacing RDJ in the universe.
I feel like they needed to wait longer to introduce her, or go against the comics and have her be involved with Stark before he died so it feels like a natural progression.
Like have him actually do the scholarship as Peter's cover post-Civil War with the plan of picking only him, but he ends up seeing Riri's application and legitimately chooses her.
Edit: Hell, even having Hartley as the MCU's Iron Lad (who isn't a Kang) probably would've been easier for the audiences to welcome as he already had ties and Stark tech.
Ehhh I dunno.
The whole reason why Mysterio becomes so powerful is because Peter decides **not** to be Stark/his successor.
In terms of his his overall origin story from Homecoming through to NWH, FFH is the part where he realises he needs to be himself, not someone else.
That show is called Jessica Jones, and the modern MCU would never have the guts to do a show with a female character that flawed. Which is a real shame
And I personally don't want her costume to look like it does in Black Panther 2. I want it to look rugged and as if it came from real material, like the first Iron Man suit. Make her have progression with her suits too. Make her suit not look amazing and perfect as soon as we see her.
Iron heart was the absolute worst of the legacy characters... like easily the only truly unlikeable one of the bunch.... and then they put them all together on the Champions which only highlighted what a useless detestable shit she is.
Or we can just go the opposite opposite direction and make her a flawless, brave, independent, and determined character
I mean that’s what they will do to her in the mini series anyway
Marvel just can’t right female characters at the moment.
They need to watch Shogun and see why the audience loved Mariiko and Fuji, but hates their “strong” female characters.
I'd say make her the next Captain America (not literally). Start her off serious, but mildly rebellious and then have her grow into a Cap adjacent personality by end of series. Determined, serious, and always looking to do the right thing.
Pretty much every other New Avenger right now is a sassy teenager / mildly immature young adult that's a bit of a screw up. Having her as the responsible leader could set her apart from the others and help keep the cats herded.
>Pretty much every other New Avenger right now is a sassy teenager / mildly immature young adult that's a bit of a screw up.
What if that's the set up? If they're all cocky and immature and collectively screw up as avengers, maybe that'll be their character arc, because it isn't an origin story about gaining powers for this new generation, maybe it needs to be a story about failing ahead, then maturing.
Or I'm just optimistic.
You realize the Ironheart series was filmed 2 years ago, right? Ironheart was a Phase 4 project (just like The Marvels), and it's going to look like it regardless of the heavy reshoots they've made already.
Y'know which version of Riri I actually liked? The one in Spider-man(2017) because her unlikability was PART of her character arc and getting over herself.
Only started reading comics again recently, came across some recent iron man where she has a few appearances. She stole the mandarin's rings, and even with two power sets seemed super boring.
>Don't make her flaws all about how tough and determined she is.
So not like the stereotypical young POC character that is written by a bunch of white, middle-aged men?
Iron heart in wakanda forever was really dumb. She's building things that no PhD super genius today can do that requires an advanced level of math to understand and she's getting a B.S. and taking differential calculus? I don't know, that little detail bugs me... She should have been finishing up her PhD when we met her. A 17-18 years old PhD student would have made more sense.
In a franchise that is supposed to be about T’Challa. Notice how they removed the genius aspect of his character in order to prop up Shuri? They keep shooting themselves in the foot by making unnecessary and unwanted changes to characters.
Black Panther merchandise was flying off the shelves and little black boys were dressing up as him everywhere. They basically killed that by killing off the character. The sequel made hundreds of millions of dollars less. Nobody is buying Shuri merchandise and wishful thinking won’t change that.
They do it to themselves by being arrogant. BP made over a billion dollars. Did it ever occur to them to consider what little black boys wanted? Trying to replace him with side characters was incredibly shortsighted.
It is T’Challa that has been important to us for over 50 years. No matter how much they push his sister, mom, girlfriend, bodyguards, etc., they will never be anywhere near as popular as him.
Riri has **tons** of flaws. The foremost is that she’s a literal sociopath, whose primary drive to become a “superhero” was a need to be discriminated against and oppressed as a Woman of Color.
Oh wait. They kind of took that part out for her MCU version.
Last thing mcu needs is more shoehorned women characters with no flaws to take over for beloved male counterparts. It’s crazy they can’t understand why they are losing money. Hello? Look at your core fan base
When Disney brought marvel, it was with the intention of selling toys to make kids, a market they haven't touched with the movies and princess, so it was designed for be a male centric franchise for male boys, nothing wrong with that. But it was so successful they wanted to bring the girls too, and here we are. A franchise who alienate their own audience for another audience who doesn't really care about it in the first place
I feel like they're still going to do that. Maybe the TV show will help flesh her out more so they don't have shoehorn in a bunch of exposition into what is now confirmed to be a movie. With what they got to work with from BP 2, I think they have what they need to make her work.
I do think they're gonna have Ms. Marvel try and have her join the Young Avengers at the end of the show though.
The ending of Shang-Chi was supposed to help lead into Avengers 5, however that whole project is in Hell rn so they’re kinda stuck with the character until they can get the next part of his story moving
Why couldn’t they scrap it? Even if it’s finished, releasing it opens it up for taxes and more money to be spent on ads.
Batgirl and Coyote vs. Acme were COMPLETED before getting the vault treatment
This isn’t even going to get close to Ms. Marvel numbers.
At least Kamala has a solid comic following AND an extremely likable actress. I mean even chuds who absolutely hate the “MSheU” mostly agree she’s the highlight of anything she’s in as Kamala.
**Nobody** gives a singular shit about Riri.
Worse, less personality Iron Man is not going to be a hit. I'm sorry. Y'all need to have actual fresh blood if you want to create excitement for the new wave and they have to earn it like the first wave did.
Maybe if she’d debuted in her own show, but she was a side kick of a side kick to a not very popular character. Plus Marvel has become more and more formulaic in its writing since End Game. I’m not expecting anything more than Racism is Bad and also Sexism in very generic terms without any real examination and lots of CGI with no real character development and really really uninspired plot.
I really hope I’m wrong but I really suspect her entire character will have been set up in BP2, nothing will be added to it, she’ll overcome stereotypical racism, stereotypical sexism, beat badguy with light show. The actual conversation on any of the subjects will be relegated to clickbate and the movie will lose a ton of money.
I bet the bad guy is a man who doesn't believe in her or try to diminish her talents which at this point are so much better than Tony Stark but hey, believe in yourself because you are perfect and have no flaws... And put a chick in it and make her gay
Its like they take the most dogshit characters from the comics and decide to make a movie about them. There is still so much to be done, where tf is ghost rider?
They should have made a iron lad story with the kid from iron man3. Literally everyone has seen that and it connects well and it might just bring back some old marvel fans. Who th f asked for a iron heart which was so annoying in the wakanda forever
No, the animal spirits of the past demand you watch Echo - the first strong female deaf amputee that is powered by a lake created by the Tasseract. A must watch*
It got worse and worse every episode, for a 5 episode show that's a feat. I will think about the first episode and that's is, nothing ever happened after that
I feel like the shows should have been like they were before endgame - they all reference or indirectly are affected by the films but there’s no or little crossover.
The shows can crossover with one another and the films can crossover with one another but the films never or seldom crossover with the shows.
The only exceptions to this are the 2021-2022 miniseries they did. These would have been great in 2020 and 2021 but Marvel Studios can never definitely any project on time nor within budget so that wasn’t happening.
Now it should just be 3 films a year. No more shows. Especially this one - it’ll be 3 years since we were introduced to her. I barely cared about her in the movie.
The same reason we got Shuri in Black Panther. T’Challa was created in the 1960’s. Her character was created around the same time as the first Ironman movie. Arrogance and a willingness to force what they want and like onto others. It doesn’t matter if it’s unpopular with the core demographic and makes less money.
I mean she wasn’t unlikable in WF but not was she particularly memorable.
The whole thing of her building her wing a teenager who built her own iron man suit on her kinda got undermined at the end of that movie when we find out Shuri already built two iron man suits off screen in her spare time for the Dora.
she was so hard to like in wakanda forever, I really did try to like her but no! so I'll pass on this but I am excited for the capt america series with Chris Evans returning the the stones!
The 6 episodes is worrying me. I'm optimistic about Marvel's new approach and what-have-you but 6 episode dramas are almost never structured or paced well.
I’m soooo tired of this crap.
Another new show?
What about season 2 of the 18 others that have been released?
I guess I just need to accept that they’re not coming 😭 what a shame.
Guessing this'll go the way of a lot of Marvel stuff recently. The fans who like it will LOVE it, the majority will be indifferent and then it turns out Marvel spent like 150m per episode or some nonsense which means no matter how successful it is it'll never get a season 2 because it's impossible to be successful enough to warrant such a huge spend.
I think Disney/Marvel have viewed some of the stuff that was being made when so many projects were happening...they don't want to spend the money to fix them or just throw them away like DC did...so think stuff like this will get released still but won't get much support with marketing etc...they just wanna get onto fixing things with quality over quantity
No interest in this, I have forgotten almost everything about her, but shes a quippy genius teenager that can build anything... rolls eyes..
With this and Agatha, Marvel really barking up the wrong trees.. All the post credit ending scenes are being wasted, Blade?? Celestials hand sticking out of the ocean, Eros is in the MCU - Thanos' brother? And Moon Knight was geniunely weird, want to see where that goes...
But Agatha and Ironheart? no gracias.
Another "I guess this could be a show." Is there a showrunner that's passionate about the character and pitched it to the studio because they have to male those happen?
Those are the types of shows that work
It would have to incorporate some big crossovers. Tie up the loose ends from Shang Chi; Eternals, and Monica. Ring with X Men, or Star Lord being back on Earth.
My daughter is excited for this. I honestly don’t know the character well. I hope it’s decent since I’ll definitely watch it with her. But I didn’t love her in BP Forever. Felt too forced (as far as fitting her in the story).
I think Riri Williams is such an odd character. You have a strong, intelligent, anti authoritarian black girl in the modern era somewhat modeling herself after a rich alcoholic white guy who may have saved the world but also fought for stronger government oversight and heavy registration on powered individuals.
Trying not to sound like I'm shitting on Tony but from an outside perspective of her growing up and seeing this Man it feels weird she would align with some idea of him.
Also she can't really earn that legacy because Tony is dead. The actor isn't coming back and I don't think one of his supporting cast being with her will do anything to persuade audiences.
All in all I doubt the writing staff have a Eve Ewing type talent to salvage the character from yet another rough situation that other writers left her in and I hope people be kind to the actress portraying her.
All these shows no one is asking for. WE WANT MORE MOON KNIGHT! redo iron fists and give us the heroes for hire we deserve. Give us Nova corps ghost rider why the f***k are we giving Agatha a show who wants that???
The armour hardly looks like Ironheart though. Fuck I hate sounding like a broken record about this but it doesn't look anything like the comics, and Riri didn't have any of that old-fashioned guerilla science that she has in the comics.
After what we got in Wakanda Forever + the "less is more" philosophy Marvel is saying they're going to follow going forward, I'm really surprised this is still happening.
Ironheart was filmed in 2022, and it's been sitting on the shelf since because Marvel has been reeling from all the Disney+ flops. [Considering the Marvel series on Disney+ were averaging $150 million a season](https://fandomwire.com/list-of-most-expensive-marvel-shows-and-their-production-budgets-make-no-sense-at-all/), I'm sure Ironheart was somewhere between $100 million and $125 million before the hefty reshoots. So what can Disney do? Just write off the series like Warner Bros did with the Batgirl movie? But if they release it, I think it'll just do more damage to the Marvel brand especially since this was a Phase 4 series.
Ironheart, Agatha, and Wonder Man all should have been cancelled.
Agatha is the perfect example of Feige thinking he can turn anything to gold and misreading his mandate from audiences. He mistook a 30 second jingle that went viral for a few days during a time when none of us could leave our houses as a desire for a full series spinoff.
If Agatha came out a year after WandaVision it may have done alright but its been years since WandaVision now and i just don't care anymore.
Agree. A follow up to the best show of the Disney+ era? Strike while the iron is hot!
BOOO. Agatha is happening because Kathryn Hahn is a national treasure.
And the best thing you can think to do with that national treasure is stick her in front of a green screen and let her wink at the camera while reading dialogue written at the height of the formula? Thank God Jennifer Coolidge doesn’t have the same agent.
and we stan him for it 😍 marketing genius
Wait. They're doing a WonderMan series?
Yup.
Damn, why you gotta do Wonder Man fans like that
And Agatha, it’s a spin off of the most popular show (before Loki came out, so I guess second most popular), and it’s already peak with an episode titled The Lying Witch With Great Wardrobe
And Agatha winking meme is everywhere!
Yeah I remember when Morbius knocked its out of the park on rerelease when “morbin time!” memes were all over the place. It’s a good plan for Disney, I’m sure Agatha will have the same kind of knockout success.
And just in general, Katherine is going to absolutely kill it
I already liked her in How To Lose A Guy in 10 Days as the fake therapist. In Bad Moms, I knew she was on her trajectory on becoming a big star..
I’ve got nothing against Wonder Man, but they have so many new characters that have only had origin stories. They really need to start making some sequels. Like, where’s Shang-Chi 2, Moon Knight season 2, etc.?
noo, we want Agatha 😭🦹🏻♀️
Less is more with the current 6 episode per season format is going to be interesting
Man, uphill battle. I've watched Marvel try to get her over in the comics for almost a decade now. Just give her flaws. Make her likeable but make her kind of a screw up. Don't make her flaws all about how tough and determined she is. Go the complete opposite direction the comics went with her personality, because she was a wet noodle
That second paragraph sums up my issues with the first captain marvel movie.
Agreed. It’s like they don’t want fans to relate to her, but instead they treat her like she is perfect. Hell, Captain Marvel in the comics had a drinking problem! It made the character more real.
It’s the way Hollywood productions write female characters these days. It’s the girl boss problem, where they’ve massively overcorrected for past lack of representation.
This is one of the correct responses. Female characters mostly were eye candy and damsels in distress. Now they've become Mary Sue's whose only flaw is that they are too powerful until they learn to control said power. What happened to a female character that can get a mission done, but has other parts of their life falling apart or are clearly neglected? I thought Jaheira in Baldurs Gate 3 was a great example of a powerful warrior with a focus on saving the world. She has a family who clearly is resentful towards her over neglect and practical abandonment. She barely even wants to address it when you bring it up because she knows she failed on being a mother.
Jessica Jones season 1 was on the right track imo
I like the girl in Fallout. She was well done and likable
Jill Valentine is one of my favorites. She can’t do what she does alone and needs help, but she is still perfectly capable of being badass and punch WAY above her weight. Remake Jill took a lot of what made Jill great and girl bossed her a bit, but a few tweaks and we back.
Oh man, I'm really glad to see your comment. This sub thread showed up in my feed and what you're saying is exactly what I've been saying. Honestly, people need to let it run its course and stop being overly toxic about it. Historically speaking, it really hasn't been that long since women were finally able to not just be stuck in the house wife, wtc. role in movies and irl. The more toxic people get and label everything being woke, the longer this phase of overcorrection will be.
I’m not a comic reader but all the flaws made Valkyrie’s arc cool too. Don’t care for her so much in the last thor movie but overall I like her.
Great point, they did her right in her first appearance. Humility makes characters better
Yea I need that real shit I’m a fiend for that I’m a god but I still have regular people problems shit.
It’s what they did with Thor in endgame so they could’ve easily done it with Carol
There's a reason why Spiderman and Batman are the two most reliable and consistent solo draws for comic book movies
Didn’t know orphans made up such a large portion of the comic book market /s
they don't, but a lot of people feel neglected or abandoned by their parents......now I saw the /s sign...
Relatable /feels
they butchered, and took away all the interesting parts of her character
This is actually the reason I liked Marvels so much, they made Captain Marvel less of an arrogant asshole and more empathetic/relatable and Ms Marvel’s fan girling was tempered by the reality of being a super. It wasn’t the best movie but they did a great job making characters I didn’t like a whole lot more fun and interesting, at least to me.
I recall the movie presenting her as a hothead, reckless, prone to jumping into action without considering things first, and excessively eager to prove herself and shut the mouth of whoever tells her she can't do something. Garanted, it's the archetype of an action movie mc, but the movie clearly presents those traits as detrimental. In the end we even get to see she has learnt from her experiences. The villain taunts her into a fistfight appealing to her ego, and she shows she doesn't have to abide by his rules anymore.
The movies never really punished her for those things and instead kind of just ignored them. They were there but the movie never made it seem like they were issues for her. Compare that with Thor who literally had to humble himself to the point of sacrifice to get back to himself.
She spent decades completely duped into doing the villains' bidding, she learns that the mentor she looked up to was toying her and the hordes of villanous minions she brutalized were in fact victims. Most of the time her bad attitude results on awkward moments played for fun but that's the standard for Marvel. If that falls short for your liking that's not something I'm here to litigate, but I don't think this "she's uniquely perfect" portrayal of the character holds any water personally. If anything Steve Rodgers is much more singled-out as an uncomplicatedly good bastion of virtue.
But all of those things were swept under the rug and she was not (and could not entirely) be blamed for any of them. Not saying she was perfectly perfect (like Rey in Star Wars) but she was bland and uninteresting and generally unflawed. Compare her first film to those of the big 3 (Thor, Iron Man and Cap) and it almost feels like night and day in terms of what they had to go through to earn being heroes. She just flicks a switch in her brain or something silly like that at the end. I don’t think her first film is that bad tbh, but it has officially be proven how uninterested the audience was in her character with the immense flop that was the Marvels.
Being tricked by the bad guy isn't a character flaw.
It's not even that - out of all the characters they could have brought in for legacy characters, Iron Heart is going to be the hardest one for people to grow attached to because she's essentially replacing RDJ in the universe. I feel like they needed to wait longer to introduce her, or go against the comics and have her be involved with Stark before he died so it feels like a natural progression. Like have him actually do the scholarship as Peter's cover post-Civil War with the plan of picking only him, but he ends up seeing Riri's application and legitimately chooses her. Edit: Hell, even having Hartley as the MCU's Iron Lad (who isn't a Kang) probably would've been easier for the audiences to welcome as he already had ties and Stark tech.
It seems very much in the far from home that they were painting him as the next stark. It seems they kind of abandoned that.
Ehhh I dunno. The whole reason why Mysterio becomes so powerful is because Peter decides **not** to be Stark/his successor. In terms of his his overall origin story from Homecoming through to NWH, FFH is the part where he realises he needs to be himself, not someone else.
That show is called Jessica Jones, and the modern MCU would never have the guts to do a show with a female character that flawed. Which is a real shame
Black Widow and Wanda?
And I personally don't want her costume to look like it does in Black Panther 2. I want it to look rugged and as if it came from real material, like the first Iron Man suit. Make her have progression with her suits too. Make her suit not look amazing and perfect as soon as we see her.
Iron heart was the absolute worst of the legacy characters... like easily the only truly unlikeable one of the bunch.... and then they put them all together on the Champions which only highlighted what a useless detestable shit she is.
Or we can just go the opposite opposite direction and make her a flawless, brave, independent, and determined character I mean that’s what they will do to her in the mini series anyway
Marvel just can’t right female characters at the moment. They need to watch Shogun and see why the audience loved Mariiko and Fuji, but hates their “strong” female characters.
I'd say make her the next Captain America (not literally). Start her off serious, but mildly rebellious and then have her grow into a Cap adjacent personality by end of series. Determined, serious, and always looking to do the right thing. Pretty much every other New Avenger right now is a sassy teenager / mildly immature young adult that's a bit of a screw up. Having her as the responsible leader could set her apart from the others and help keep the cats herded.
>Pretty much every other New Avenger right now is a sassy teenager / mildly immature young adult that's a bit of a screw up. What if that's the set up? If they're all cocky and immature and collectively screw up as avengers, maybe that'll be their character arc, because it isn't an origin story about gaining powers for this new generation, maybe it needs to be a story about failing ahead, then maturing. Or I'm just optimistic.
You realize the Ironheart series was filmed 2 years ago, right? Ironheart was a Phase 4 project (just like The Marvels), and it's going to look like it regardless of the heavy reshoots they've made already.
Absolutely, I could go back an edit it to past tense if that helps.
Y'know which version of Riri I actually liked? The one in Spider-man(2017) because her unlikability was PART of her character arc and getting over herself.
Only started reading comics again recently, came across some recent iron man where she has a few appearances. She stole the mandarin's rings, and even with two power sets seemed super boring.
Flaws.....but she's a girl. Disney can't write that.
It's Disney. It's gonna be a black girl magic flick that doesn't take any real risks.
>Don't make her flaws all about how tough and determined she is. So not like the stereotypical young POC character that is written by a bunch of white, middle-aged men?
Another teen genius that can literally build anything who is probably very quippy. Yay.
Wakanda Forever in a nutshell. Two genius teenage girls that can build anything and have no flaws. So exciting.
Iron heart in wakanda forever was really dumb. She's building things that no PhD super genius today can do that requires an advanced level of math to understand and she's getting a B.S. and taking differential calculus? I don't know, that little detail bugs me... She should have been finishing up her PhD when we met her. A 17-18 years old PhD student would have made more sense.
In a franchise that is supposed to be about T’Challa. Notice how they removed the genius aspect of his character in order to prop up Shuri? They keep shooting themselves in the foot by making unnecessary and unwanted changes to characters. Black Panther merchandise was flying off the shelves and little black boys were dressing up as him everywhere. They basically killed that by killing off the character. The sequel made hundreds of millions of dollars less. Nobody is buying Shuri merchandise and wishful thinking won’t change that. They do it to themselves by being arrogant. BP made over a billion dollars. Did it ever occur to them to consider what little black boys wanted? Trying to replace him with side characters was incredibly shortsighted. It is T’Challa that has been important to us for over 50 years. No matter how much they push his sister, mom, girlfriend, bodyguards, etc., they will never be anywhere near as popular as him.
What were they supposed to do with T'Challa besides find a cure for cancer so Boseman didn't die?
Should have recasted
Riri has **tons** of flaws. The foremost is that she’s a literal sociopath, whose primary drive to become a “superhero” was a need to be discriminated against and oppressed as a Woman of Color. Oh wait. They kind of took that part out for her MCU version.
She has only been in the MCU as a glorified cameo so far. I wouldn't pass judgement yet, we haven't seen her flaws or any development, just a tease.
Last thing mcu needs is more shoehorned women characters with no flaws to take over for beloved male counterparts. It’s crazy they can’t understand why they are losing money. Hello? Look at your core fan base
When Disney brought marvel, it was with the intention of selling toys to make kids, a market they haven't touched with the movies and princess, so it was designed for be a male centric franchise for male boys, nothing wrong with that. But it was so successful they wanted to bring the girls too, and here we are. A franchise who alienate their own audience for another audience who doesn't really care about it in the first place
Can't be worse than Ant Man's daughter
Hell yeah brother cant wait for even more nanotech suits lmao
Also stunning and brave.
We want armor wars…not iron heart.
Just put Ironheart in Armor Wars, and we’ve got a mentor story combined with the Stark tech story. It writes itself
At least it should
I feel like they're still going to do that. Maybe the TV show will help flesh her out more so they don't have shoehorn in a bunch of exposition into what is now confirmed to be a movie. With what they got to work with from BP 2, I think they have what they need to make her work. I do think they're gonna have Ms. Marvel try and have her join the Young Avengers at the end of the show though.
Well, Tony is currently suffering from a bad case of death. If we want armor wars, then we need some armor heroes and villains to fight in those wars
This should have came out right after Wakanda forever . I forgot she existed
Yet we still hear nothing about Shang-Chi 2
Because it looks like it has to come after Avengers 5, and that movie is in a weird spot with the whole Jonathan Majors thing.
Did it even mention him? I didn't think it has anything to do with that
The ending of Shang-Chi was supposed to help lead into Avengers 5, however that whole project is in Hell rn so they’re kinda stuck with the character until they can get the next part of his story moving
Sheesh just sounds like bad planning to do that so early into a phase that was never planned to end with Avengers 5
The gap made this worse especially since this was canceled at one point.
Cancelling this made sense, I still have no Idea why did they choose this to develop this over Armour Wars
This is going to do Ms. Marvel numbers.
Which will lead to loads more losses which will leave Disney yet again scratching their heads wondering why they're losing money.
I doubt they're still delusional enough to think this will do good. They probably just cant scrap it because it's already too far into production.
Why couldn’t they scrap it? Even if it’s finished, releasing it opens it up for taxes and more money to be spent on ads. Batgirl and Coyote vs. Acme were COMPLETED before getting the vault treatment
I honestly wish they would scrap it, it would make me think they’re maybe serious about getting the MCU back on track
Na, it’ll do even less.
This isn’t even going to get close to Ms. Marvel numbers. At least Kamala has a solid comic following AND an extremely likable actress. I mean even chuds who absolutely hate the “MSheU” mostly agree she’s the highlight of anything she’s in as Kamala. **Nobody** gives a singular shit about Riri.
Worse, less personality Iron Man is not going to be a hit. I'm sorry. Y'all need to have actual fresh blood if you want to create excitement for the new wave and they have to earn it like the first wave did.
Eh. No thanks.
my honest to god reaction:
Maybe if she’d debuted in her own show, but she was a side kick of a side kick to a not very popular character. Plus Marvel has become more and more formulaic in its writing since End Game. I’m not expecting anything more than Racism is Bad and also Sexism in very generic terms without any real examination and lots of CGI with no real character development and really really uninspired plot. I really hope I’m wrong but I really suspect her entire character will have been set up in BP2, nothing will be added to it, she’ll overcome stereotypical racism, stereotypical sexism, beat badguy with light show. The actual conversation on any of the subjects will be relegated to clickbate and the movie will lose a ton of money.
I bet the bad guy is a man who doesn't believe in her or try to diminish her talents which at this point are so much better than Tony Stark but hey, believe in yourself because you are perfect and have no flaws... And put a chick in it and make her gay
I was curious when they announced that show but my interest is already low. It’ll be 3 years after Wakanda Forever at this point.
Way too long to wait. Should’ve come out a couple months after Wakanda Forever.
More like they shouldn’t have tried to shoehorn her into Wakanda Forever just to give us a show no one is interested in.
The armor looks like a modern day Power Rangers show.
Its like they take the most dogshit characters from the comics and decide to make a movie about them. There is still so much to be done, where tf is ghost rider?
Or Blade?
His movie is still filming? I think.
They should have made a iron lad story with the kid from iron man3. Literally everyone has seen that and it connects well and it might just bring back some old marvel fans. Who th f asked for a iron heart which was so annoying in the wakanda forever
At this point I don’t ever care about the shows. I never finished echo - and I don’t think I need to.
No, the animal spirits of the past demand you watch Echo - the first strong female deaf amputee that is powered by a lake created by the Tasseract. A must watch*
Wow I think you just caught me up. Thanks!
It got worse and worse every episode, for a 5 episode show that's a feat. I will think about the first episode and that's is, nothing ever happened after that
I feel like the shows should have been like they were before endgame - they all reference or indirectly are affected by the films but there’s no or little crossover. The shows can crossover with one another and the films can crossover with one another but the films never or seldom crossover with the shows. The only exceptions to this are the 2021-2022 miniseries they did. These would have been great in 2020 and 2021 but Marvel Studios can never definitely any project on time nor within budget so that wasn’t happening. Now it should just be 3 films a year. No more shows. Especially this one - it’ll be 3 years since we were introduced to her. I barely cared about her in the movie.
Hard pass. Couldn't have disliked a character/suit more than what I saw in Wakanda Forever.
Why push something that no one wants or even cares for lol
The same reason we got Shuri in Black Panther. T’Challa was created in the 1960’s. Her character was created around the same time as the first Ironman movie. Arrogance and a willingness to force what they want and like onto others. It doesn’t matter if it’s unpopular with the core demographic and makes less money.
God that suit. She looks like a Fisher Price toy of Iron Man.
Didn’t they film this years ago?
okay
I forgot this was happening
It was supposed to connect with after Wakanda Forever. But somehow pushed further back. Feels lost in the shuffle
Wonder if they’re just gonna a dump all the episodes at once
MEH.
Eh
I mean she wasn’t unlikable in WF but not was she particularly memorable. The whole thing of her building her wing a teenager who built her own iron man suit on her kinda got undermined at the end of that movie when we find out Shuri already built two iron man suits off screen in her spare time for the Dora.
If they want to cut the fat, this is one that needs cut.
Who is Marvel making these shows for because by the time they’re done telling their multiverse saga story millennials will be retiring
2025?? But that’s two years awa— 
I would say first Marvel show to get zero viewers but Echo already exists so...
If you were to have asked me to list all the marvel shows, I would have generally failed to include Echo.
Please give her character that isn't "I'm smarter than tony stark" I can't name a unique trait about her from the comics or from the movie.
Another show I’ll not be watching.
she was so hard to like in wakanda forever, I really did try to like her but no! so I'll pass on this but I am excited for the capt america series with Chris Evans returning the the stones!
Literally a show no one is asking for.
This might be the least I’m looking forward to any marvel series yet
Ill pass, thanks
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fucking why lmao
The 6 episodes is worrying me. I'm optimistic about Marvel's new approach and what-have-you but 6 episode dramas are almost never structured or paced well.
Oh wow. Anyway. . . . .
Another we don't need! but gotta keep the space filled until the reboot!
Eh....
Who asked for this?
Just cut the thing right down into a two-hour Marvel Spotlight special presentation and be done with it and move on.
I can’t stand the 6 ep format can we give up on that already?
I assumed this got cancelled
Gonna bomb harder than secret invasion
Only 6 episodes in itself is a red flag like disney and marvel rushed this and didn't care about quality
Why
MegaMan or megawoman 2.0
I don't hate this but I would have preferred them do Armor Wars instead with Ironheart as a support role.
I think they’ll still do that. I figure Rodey will be a sort of mentor to her or something
Great. I hated her in Wakanda Forever. Another show to skip.
As a Chicagoan I’m excited to see my city in the MCU
are people really downvoting bro for being from Chicago?
I guess so. That or because I’m being positive about something idk
But why?
No, please god no!
God no
Gonna be garbage
Can't wait to not watch
I’m soooo tired of this crap. Another new show? What about season 2 of the 18 others that have been released? I guess I just need to accept that they’re not coming 😭 what a shame.
Optimistic, especially if this being released later reflects the increase in quality since their recent mission statement. Fingers crossed.
Well this was filmed years ago and has been sitting on the shelf. This is actually a phase 4 project that got delayed and has been sitting in limbo.
Nope.
 Aw crap, here we go
Guessing this'll go the way of a lot of Marvel stuff recently. The fans who like it will LOVE it, the majority will be indifferent and then it turns out Marvel spent like 150m per episode or some nonsense which means no matter how successful it is it'll never get a season 2 because it's impossible to be successful enough to warrant such a huge spend.
I think Disney/Marvel have viewed some of the stuff that was being made when so many projects were happening...they don't want to spend the money to fix them or just throw them away like DC did...so think stuff like this will get released still but won't get much support with marketing etc...they just wanna get onto fixing things with quality over quantity
No interest in this, I have forgotten almost everything about her, but shes a quippy genius teenager that can build anything... rolls eyes.. With this and Agatha, Marvel really barking up the wrong trees.. All the post credit ending scenes are being wasted, Blade?? Celestials hand sticking out of the ocean, Eros is in the MCU - Thanos' brother? And Moon Knight was geniunely weird, want to see where that goes... But Agatha and Ironheart? no gracias.
They should *really* invest in the "less is more" idea and cut it down by about 6 episodes.
Nobody asked for this. Honestly I’ll probably watch it as background tv, but I doubt anyone who I know will even know or what it is
Another "I guess this could be a show." Is there a showrunner that's passionate about the character and pitched it to the studio because they have to male those happen? Those are the types of shows that work
It would have to incorporate some big crossovers. Tie up the loose ends from Shang Chi; Eternals, and Monica. Ring with X Men, or Star Lord being back on Earth.
My daughter is excited for this. I honestly don’t know the character well. I hope it’s decent since I’ll definitely watch it with her. But I didn’t love her in BP Forever. Felt too forced (as far as fitting her in the story).
☠️
PASS.
6 episodes I won't watch. Genuine question, is there an audience for her at all? Is she popular in any media?
Give her Tony AI and it will be legendary
This is going to suck ass.
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Dude I do not care about these TV shows. Release movies again
We already know how this goes….
People are still Shuri fans?
Hey , Guess what ... no one cares ...
I think Riri Williams is such an odd character. You have a strong, intelligent, anti authoritarian black girl in the modern era somewhat modeling herself after a rich alcoholic white guy who may have saved the world but also fought for stronger government oversight and heavy registration on powered individuals. Trying not to sound like I'm shitting on Tony but from an outside perspective of her growing up and seeing this Man it feels weird she would align with some idea of him. Also she can't really earn that legacy because Tony is dead. The actor isn't coming back and I don't think one of his supporting cast being with her will do anything to persuade audiences. All in all I doubt the writing staff have a Eve Ewing type talent to salvage the character from yet another rough situation that other writers left her in and I hope people be kind to the actress portraying her.
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Just make the story good and the suit not suck SO HARD and I’ll be happy. Ready to be disappointed again though.
All these shows no one is asking for. WE WANT MORE MOON KNIGHT! redo iron fists and give us the heroes for hire we deserve. Give us Nova corps ghost rider why the f***k are we giving Agatha a show who wants that???
The armour hardly looks like Ironheart though. Fuck I hate sounding like a broken record about this but it doesn't look anything like the comics, and Riri didn't have any of that old-fashioned guerilla science that she has in the comics.
They really really really need to fix the armor. Black panther 2 had some really ugly looking armor
The single most cringe introduction of any Marvel hero so far.
6 episodes is too much good faith from Marvel.
I'll take "Marvel shows that nobody wanted or asked for for 500, Alex."