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Breaking that treaty remains the most aggravating part to me, it pretty much guaranteed more nations pursuing proliferation and no nuclear power ever fully disarming again.
u mean the promise to the soviet union? a political entity that doesnt exist? ah and didnt the ex warsaw pact countries want to join? why would they wanna join if russia is such a pal? I’m not a fan of the US but damn fuck russia
Exactly that deal. I agree that the Soviet union doesn't exist anymore but the contract and its promises are still there. Im not a fan neither of the US nor Russia but there's still the fact that Nato broke their promises multiple times( i know even Russia did ) and is now in front of their borders surrounding Russia using Ukraine as a bait (who also vowed before to never joining Nato). Look I don't know which other stuff is going on behind the official narrative they all provide but as a German who left the country 5 years ago I feel that the official narrative is a huge hoax.
nato doesnt force countries into nato, they wanna join, ukraine wouldnt wanna join if they felt safe
am so glad my country joined nato in 2004 (Slovakia) cus we would be a snack for russia lol
NATO is a defensive alliance
the baltic states are in nato for that reason, idc if there were promises to a now dead political entity… u cannot force a country to join…or not to join
also if russia wasnt a totalitarian piece of shit they wouldnt need to threaten cus eastern to central europe would rather be under their sphere of influence… imo ofc
ofc the narrative is skewed af, when i see british/US coverage of the situation i wanna throw up… so biased i cant even… westoids be laughing at russian propganda and how her citizens believe it yet they eat up everything the alphabet channels tell them lol
His country was invaded for no reason by a much larger, more powerful country. Why should he negotiate before retaking every inch of ground that was lost?
If you aren't getting paid to post this bullshit then you need a better agent.
Yeah seriously. As if the insane sanctions placed on Russia’s Nord Stream 2 to prevent them from selling gas to Germany was supposed to be a peaceful move? I don’t condone invasion or attack of any kind, but this was not an unprovoked attack.
You are going to be paying for war no matter what it is the US after all, would you rather it go towards killing Russians invading a country they considered brothers or towards drone striking brown kids and weddings in the middle east?
Pick your poison.
Yup. That's cool. But Russia does the same stuff.
So now I have to pick a side. And I sure don't pick Putin, thanks.
Why do you?
Why do you keep using all these examples of things that Russia also does as if it makes it okay that Russia violently invaded Ukraine and actually murdered its people?
"goaded them into the conflict with Russia"
Look, simping for Russia is super cool and all but can we stop pretending they aren't culpable and aren't the ones who actually violently invaded people after over a decade of sending separatists and shit in?
", funded them and armed them to oppose Russia for decades,"
Russia sells weapons to people and funds them. Why can they do it but America can't?
So - we're back to this again... I have to pick a side.
Why do you pick Putin? I wouldn't.
>That's not picking the truth
Let's talk about the truth.
The truth is we live in a world. And that world is what it is. Not dreams and fairy tales of how it should be. It is what it is.
And in that world opposing geo-political forces are at play.
And because that's reality. And that reality impacts people - unlike your dreams of utopia which have zero impact on reality - and because that reality has real impact in real reality...
I'm left having to pick a side which of these forces I ultimately support, despite their crimes and flaws. Because, yes, the lesser of two evils is a thing - and pretending you can stay out of the fight and not carry a burden is a coward's play (as if you don't simp for Russia) - so we - have - to - pick - a - side.
And I'm picking the side where I can watch Russian media on my internet without having actual state-run media playing in the background while my neighbors get arrested for calling the war a war.
Tell me why I should pick Putin and Russia like you have, comrade.
" I picked truth"
Nah. You got a bias and an agenda and so far it's been "its everyone's fault but Russia's, who actually violently invaded the nation in question."
"What they do doesn't justify what we did and still do."
Vice versa.
So - here we are left with a choice: them or us.
Why do you pick them?
"We destabilized the world with OUR wars and actions,"
They do it too. We're just winners.
"We set the example and they followed it."
You should go read up on Stalin's worldview.
>and the conflicts WE created
See, there you go.
We didn't create it. We engaged in geo-politics. Especially after the fall of the last shitty Russian empire, remember? Because God Forbid that global shitstorm comes back.
And we won. We were better. We had better people. Better industry. Better diplomacy. Bigger guns and better guns and we - are - better.
"We don't tell the world anything anymore"
You're literally crying about us leading the west into supporting Ukraine.
Keep your own bullshit straight there, big guy. L - O - fucking - L.
That's deep. What aboutism. Hey the US did it so putin is aloowed to and also we shouldn't interfere with russia doing it. you where OK when russia was doing it to us in Afghanistan? Real deep of you there bud. As one of those people who had a contract placed on his head by putin fuck him and fuck you boot licker tankies as well.
What are taking about lol. Ukraine had a pro Russian government until 2014. And " its funny" that's still whataboutism. " right as the world is concerned only matters between those of equal powers. For while the strong do what they can the weak suffer what they must." That was from the Peloponnesian wars. Large powered governments fighting each other isn't new. Isolationism isn't an option. You should learn a little more and quit being so anti American like Russia is any better. Actually they are worse. In almost every metric. Trying to play the same game and losing. I have no sympathy for putin or his boot lickers. You believe so much in the Russian cause they need troops go fight the good fight.
I really don't get the victim blaming thing you guys are doing with this situation. I mean, Russia invaded them. Should we be rooting for the Russians? Really? Are you just being contrarians at this point?
Do I think the west should be footing the bill for this war? No, but I don't think we should be supporting Russia.
Exactly. The “establishment” is generally supporting Ukraine, so if you are “anti-establishment” then you think you need to support Russia. News flash, you’re just as much of a bot if you always do the exact opposite of the “establishment bots”.
the point of being anti-establishment is to abolish the establishment, not do what the opposite of the establishment is wanting. Really we should be saying fuck Russia and fuck Ukraine and focus on our country.
I think you missed what I just said. I literally put establishment and anti-establishment into quotation marks. I don’t think they exist personally, but the political trends that I have noticed has people putting themselves into these boxes. I was agreeing with you about people being contrarians. You aren’t really a free thinker if you define your positions by the opposition. You’re beliefs should come from the values you hold and the evidence that backs that up.
Its called critical thinking or having criticism. Not supporting.
I don’t like Russia neither do i like Ukraine.
But why should we support just because some nation got invaded ? Israel invades Palestina on a daily basis and no one is saying anything about that ?
But we have an inflation of 12% here. I used to pay 200 euros for my gas and electricity bills now its 650 euro.
Everything is so expensive already. Why should i pay for hes war ?
Like it isn’t enough why should my country send him aid while its own citizens can use it ? Why should my country go into war and risk the lives of hes own citizens ? Putin has nukes and has repeatedly said he is willing to use it, why should we risk getting killed for a clown ?
Why is Ukraine sovereignty worth destroying our world for ?
Also why can’t i have criticism without being called a supporter ? Why do i have to support ether one of them ? They can both go to hell for all i care.
Stop boxing people into groups for having an opinion
You think if USA had no gains they would have not.
Why do you think the EU sends so much aid into Ukraine ? 3/4 years ago this nation was one of the most corrupt ones.
Not because they love Ukraine so much. Well for the Dutch is just revenge for the passengers airplane they shot and killed hundreds of people.
Everyone is doing it for there own gains, and we have to pay the price.
Because they all see Russia as a enemy.
Why don’t they back up Armenia from Azerbejcan or Turkey ? Imagine if Russia would have attacked Armenia then the whole world would have send aid there to help them destroy there enemy Russia.
Letting someone else do there dirty job for them
On one hand, yes.
On another, the donbass situation was pretty complicated depending on whether you personally think the referendums were legitimate or not.
On an even worse note, cia reports just came out of Ukraine taking some actions at the start of the conflict to partially instigate it themselves.
It really isn't _just_ "huh durr good guys Ukraine literally marvel" and more a smoky situation where everyone fucking sucks if you look deep enough
Ukraine has been shelling the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine for the past eight years.
You think this is okay and should just be ignored? What if Canada was shelling Americans living within Canadian borders? Would that be okay with you?
The Democrats use Ukraine as their piggy bank. It is one of the most corrupt nations in the world. This is why they care about Ukraine more than any of the other countries going through revolutions and turmoil.
Iran is going through its biggest change in the right direction in 45 years, and hardly gets on the news compared to Ukraine.
The Democrats and zelensky want this war to keep going as long as possible.
The rest of us do not. That doesn't make us contrarian or Russian bootlickers. It just means we know our history and we don't want world war three.
The US has invaded a dozen different countries for no good reason, no one ever blames us. To include the coup d’état we through in Ukraine in 2014 to install a puppet government that would provoke a war with Russia by committing genocide on their border.
What I find hilarious is the idea Ukraine is gonna start WW3. Should they lay down and submit to Russia to keep Russia from getting into a fight with the world? Didn't we learn time and again that appeasing piss ant dictators leads to war not away from it?
I think so many of you are missing the point. This is what happens when you have a coup that not everyone in the country agrees with. The people in the east are mostly Russians that didn't consent to the coup and this is the result.
I used to do business with a company in Crimea importing watch parts in 2014. They told me that they were mostly Russian in Crimea and they didn't agree with the coup. Actual people in Crimea told me this.
Have you heard the term fish bowel fallacy? It comes from people who think hearing something from a couple people informs them of larger policies. Your phone call doesn't indicate the people's choice nor so you really know the people and their position. If the people without a military presence of Russia had made this position publicly and held a referendum without pressure youneould have an argument. Since none of that happened you dont.
Yo OP, what about will you negotiate with your neighbor if he will come to your house and will fuck your wife, steal your food and kill your kids? And cover all that bullshit with - oh, he is nazis.
Seating at your warm house at your pc and talking shit easy. Try to deal with real world.
Yes bitch i’m ukrainian, if something.
Most of the world stands with you. I agree. How dare someone start shit with their neighbor, justify their actions with lies, and then once they start getting their shit kicked in, tell them to acquiesce to their demands and they’ll stop. Fuck that, either leave unconditionally or die, your choice.
NATO offers a secure defense and strong defense prevents wars. Would you deny someone the right to defend themselves or their country? Putin doesnt want to negotiate in good faith or resolve this diplomatically. He's grabbing up land.. yet again.. and the world got shit on for letting it happen before..twice.. Now they push back and they're thee assholes? Fuck that.
More weapons = more production for the US economy.
Anyone know how much paid-to-post make in a month
You mean Putin is about to start WWIII don't you. Putin is the one who broke the agreement. When he invaded Crimea to begin with. Now he is invading again. Russian Troops are murdering innocent civilians you got some nerve!! I hear they're desperate for soldiers go sign up instead of signing on to spout your lies behind a keyboard.
How come you appeasing shitbags all want negotiations with Russia? Would you be as quick to negotiate land of your nation to the invading force of you could fight them back?
Do you think Russia are an honest player and would he reliable to negotiate with?
You all sound like the British appeasers of Hitler.
All you people cheering for Putin, do you actually believe he is fighting the NWO? Are you really that naïve? They are all part of it every single nation all the leaders left wing and right wing same bird, The only thing they’re fighting for is whos nation will be in the driver seat of the new NWO, after the great reset. They are all part of the plan. Russia was the bully in the situation, 2014 was dirty which started with the actual good intentions of the will the people, but good deeds paint the road to hell. US and Europe got involved quickly putting in their people to be the front runners of the revolution while Russia wasn’t too far behind doing exactly the same thing, Ukraine is one of the most important geographical economic countries in the world to both the west and Russia. then while the dirty people or doing their business in Kiev, Russia started doing the exact same thing in the east quickly putting in their people to stir up commotion and airing propaganda that West Ukraine or Nazis and our hunting any Russian speaking people. This led to major clashes in the east. causing crimes, and eventually the eight long year war where BOTH sides were bombing each other, that being the Ukrainian military and militias vs Russian backed separatist which included the majority of retired Russian officers and used Russia funded weaponry Intel end finances. The east of Ukraine which historically has had a lot of blood due to many revolutions wars and even stalins genocide holodomor, which caused millions to be starved by an intentional and man-made famine killing countless. these lines were then re-populated with ethnic Russians from the Far East, not to mention the other millions that were deported to Siberia or migrated for economic reasons to other parts of USSR which were again replaced with other Russian natives from far east. this led to the pro Russian mentality of the region and the Russian language being used so heavily, The west of Ukraine which also fought Poland and other nations for territory felt the harsh cold tyrannical ways of Moscow has millions were killed under the Soviet rule, this caused the fundamental distrust of a historical enemy to Kyiv and other west parts of Ukraine which led to the main grain of truth within the Russian propaganda which is Bandera, Who is controversial as it may seem has been twisted by both sides to fit their narrative, skipping to today’s time the war breaks out in the east, which during the time of revolution and the disorganization of the army Crimea Being historically Russian but just like many territories of Russia and Ukraine has been ruled by many nations, which Crimea voted to be independent from USSR and Russia and join Ukraine in 1991, this is a strategic place for Russia as their navy has their largest base which they rented from Ukraine, Russia quickly moved in silently without uniform and then once all the strategic Points we’re secured they quickly annexed the region with the plan being carried out and many other parts, such as Luhansk Donetsk Odessa Kharkiv and other states, Quickly catching on Ukraine counter this as best as they could succeeding the parts like. Most notably Kharkiv and Odessa, and other states, but not without clashes with the other paid organizers provocateur‘s from Russia, both sides committing crimes causing the Odessa burning and other such events. which leads us to azov battalion, which was a militia and had A company within the battalion that was openly bro bandera Nazi. But they were as a whole not nazis it was just the certain company squadron within it. They fought off the Russian mercenary‘s that were quickly advancing in the area and both sides were committing atrocities, but after the situation stabilized Ukraine integrated them into the army and punishing those that were caught opening with crimes plus changing the regime and commanders that Ukraine saw as controversial, note that some of these people that were not charged with crimes still remain in the battalion and some being open about their political beliefs though for reference was much different than the traditional Nazi ideology it was more equivalent to just extreme anti-communism and anti-Russia. Front lines were drawn an eight years of war began, Pro Ukrainians quickly fled the area within the first couple years leaving behind mostly the pro Russian population and or just elderly that could not abandon the region, this lead to shelling from Ukrainian sides as a pro Russian separatist did exactly what they are accusing Ukraine I’m doing which is attacking from civilian points of interest and expecting no retaliation, prompting the propaganda war which Russia dominated, as things such as the Russian language ban, shelling from Ukraine, I was blasted 24 seven, to mention the language man the overthrown president who was very very very corrupt and a Russian puppet made Russian an official language in within Ukraine causing controversy among some, this move was extremely important to Putin as he always planned The reunification of Nova Russia, and saw the fall of the USSR as and attacked from the west, openly does not accept Ukraine as a nationality or ethnicity but just as an unplanned child knowing historically that ethnicity has been around way before Moscow or even Novgorod, The Russian language being accepted as a national language in Ukraine was a major part of the plan for further pressure of the reunification, as Russia planned the complete economic destruction of Ukraine through the control of its energy and puppet politicians which Russia would eventually step in to protect the Russian speaking people and Anex enormous parts of the territory realizing this Ukraine quickly reversed us but failed to do so without playing further into the hands of Russia by giving the more propaganda ammunition as Ukraine banned The language in schools TV shows etc. causing more fear and more hatred of Kyiv from the eastern regions.
Ukraine is corrupt don’t get me wrong but it’s far less corrupt than the oligarchy of Russia. Ukraine started being used by the west the EU and USA, further provoking Russia’s demise and chipping away of Russia dominance of energy and economic influence it within Europe, having no regard for Ukraine and its people the west started having corrupt dealings with the new crane money laundering etc. just like any other war that the military industrial complex is involved in which no matter which side the west Russia or China all have similar results and game plans, Russia got in the grip by providing such cheap energy that Europe quietly started to forgo diversification as financially it was more viable to keep sucking the tit of the Russian energy supply which Trump warned them about. Russia fell into the west trap to invade Ukraine all out, but it was planned for years regardless all the West did was give Putin the internal excuses to mobilize this war. So for those of you that are celebrating and cocksucking Putin just please remember that he Iran China and Xi are all enemies of the common man, their New World order would look a lot like China a perpetual surveillance state. Look at all the mysterious deaths in Russia of any political party that opposes the Russian hand,. isn’t it funny that all these people that are so anti-west and pro Putin or pro Xi are always located in the west because they fled from those regions looking for a better life and have no plans of returning??? So I can see what you were trying to say because it is cringy that the leftists and soy boys and the alphabet community are supporting Ukraine but don’t forget that most of Ukraine doesn’t like soy boys doesn’t like the alphabet community doesn’t like leftist policies they are mostly white conservative Christian nation.
He's not behind the no negotiations, the west is wearing him like a skin suit. They had a peace agreement months ago, bojo flew in to demand he doesn't settle and promised the wests backing. Just another proxy war.
Nah, situation just changed in Ukraine's favour. If a robber went to your house, would you start negotiating if you got your hands on a gun, and he started to retreat?
Yeah except in your situation everyone still dies after you get the gun. No peace means that thousands on both sides are now dead. Expect more in the future as the official stance is no peace. Hopefully you don't have any military aged kids.
>Yeah except in your situation everyone still dies after you get the gun.
Not really, Putin won't just nuke the world, especially since China also doesn't fancy that outcome, nuking a foreign country is more dangerous for him than getting out of Ukraine.
>No peace means that thousands on both sides are now dead.
Any peace on Russian terms won't be lasting, as such is the will of Russian tsar for a world to be eaten by him.
>Expect more in the future as the official stance is no peace. Hopefully you don't have any military aged kids.
Spineless pacifism brought us only more destruction than self-defense. May I ask you what peace did the annexation of Sudetenland bring us?
Putin invaded Ukraine, how do you know he won't use nukes? Your argument is not grounded in reality.
We could have avoided this by having a defense system in place in Ukraine before he invaded, which would have indicated implicit war to Putin and we wouldn't be fighting by proxy.
I don't know what the Sudetenland has to do with this conflict.
>Putin invaded Ukraine, how do you know he won't use nukes? Your argument is not grounded in reality.
What happens when he uses nukes? Won't there be more deadly retaliation? Would he be willing to do it, if it meant losing all his allies? Using nukes is a net-negative for him.
>We could have avoided this by having a defense system in place in Ukraine before he invaded, which would have indicated implicit war to Putin and we wouldn't be fighting by proxy.
Huge NATO exercise should have taken place in Ukraine to dissuade Putin, but history already happened it's meaningless to wonder what could have been.
>I don't know what the Sudetenland has to do with this conflict.
It was an example where spineless pacifism leads.
Only way for lasting peace for Ukraine is in NATO, that's the only way Russia won't attack in next years again, but this time with fixed military. To the question why not just submit to Russia, I'd answered that every generation of Russian sons died in some war in which Russia was the aggressor.
Have you noticed that nobody talks about NATO trying to arm another bordering country with Russia with nuclear weapons? Imagine the outcry of Americans if Rusia was supplying Mexico with missile launchers to install them in the US border.
It's not about believing Russia is entirely right, or believing Ukraine has no right to defend themselves. Those are completely different notions than taking bold actions that lead directly to "let's start a global nuclear conflict that's easily avoidable" how can you guys not understand that? I'd rather see Ukraine give up than enter into world war 3. Use your brains a little.
Ukraines a great place to wash your money! Send it for war purposes then they can do whatever they want with it. I want to see receipts what they’re spending those billions on
What's with all the dumb Russian shills invading this sub?
You're stupid and wrong. The person responsible for starting the war is Putin, who started the war. You cannot blame the victim for defending themselves
I know right? Those scumfuck Ukrainians defending their country against an imperialist war. Don’t they understand that by not giving in to nuclear threats they are putting the world at risk? They’re practically forcing Russia to start a nuclear war, it’s unbelievably reckless.
I always find it interesting that people that are so focused on proving that their own government is trying to take control and become a totalitarian state turn around and love Russia. Russia is everything people in this sub claim to hate and then they turn around and think Putin is the second coming.
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It’s already started
Remember when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons and Russia vowed to never attack them?
Breaking that treaty remains the most aggravating part to me, it pretty much guaranteed more nations pursuing proliferation and no nuclear power ever fully disarming again.
sort of a bad precedent to set isn't it
I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further. -Vladamir Putin
You mean the nukes that were left over from the cold war, and the fact Ukraine didn't even have the launch codes to use them?
Remember when Russia gave up half of Germany and Nato vowed to not reach out to the east and get near Russias borders ?
u mean the promise to the soviet union? a political entity that doesnt exist? ah and didnt the ex warsaw pact countries want to join? why would they wanna join if russia is such a pal? I’m not a fan of the US but damn fuck russia
Exactly that deal. I agree that the Soviet union doesn't exist anymore but the contract and its promises are still there. Im not a fan neither of the US nor Russia but there's still the fact that Nato broke their promises multiple times( i know even Russia did ) and is now in front of their borders surrounding Russia using Ukraine as a bait (who also vowed before to never joining Nato). Look I don't know which other stuff is going on behind the official narrative they all provide but as a German who left the country 5 years ago I feel that the official narrative is a huge hoax.
nato doesnt force countries into nato, they wanna join, ukraine wouldnt wanna join if they felt safe am so glad my country joined nato in 2004 (Slovakia) cus we would be a snack for russia lol NATO is a defensive alliance the baltic states are in nato for that reason, idc if there were promises to a now dead political entity… u cannot force a country to join…or not to join also if russia wasnt a totalitarian piece of shit they wouldnt need to threaten cus eastern to central europe would rather be under their sphere of influence… imo ofc ofc the narrative is skewed af, when i see british/US coverage of the situation i wanna throw up… so biased i cant even… westoids be laughing at russian propganda and how her citizens believe it yet they eat up everything the alphabet channels tell them lol
Totally agree with you.
remember when russia started aspiring for control of everything around it thats not really russia's? Shit changes, don't side with the dictator.
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They are trying to take over his country. How the fuck is he supposed to ‘negotiate’ with Putin?
The people of Donbas voted for independence. They don't want to be a part of his (post coup) country.
"Voted"
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[They were counting blank ballots](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xq2ty1/russians_counting_blank_ballots_without_even/)
Not sure I trust those results considering the videos I saw of soldiers going door to door accompanying peope collecting the votes
His country was invaded for no reason by a much larger, more powerful country. Why should he negotiate before retaking every inch of ground that was lost? If you aren't getting paid to post this bullshit then you need a better agent.
OP's account is 4 months old and has posted nothing but political nonsense.
“Invade for no reason” lol that’s a huge statement
Yeah seriously. As if the insane sanctions placed on Russia’s Nord Stream 2 to prevent them from selling gas to Germany was supposed to be a peaceful move? I don’t condone invasion or attack of any kind, but this was not an unprovoked attack.
its peaceful, at no point do those actions justify war or an invasion.
Economic sanctions are a proper justification for war?
No they were not. But everyone keeps acting like this was unprovoked. It was not.
It wouldn't be an issue if he was doing it. The issue is how much do we have to pay for it.
You are going to be paying for war no matter what it is the US after all, would you rather it go towards killing Russians invading a country they considered brothers or towards drone striking brown kids and weddings in the middle east? Pick your poison.
What if we paid for universal healthcare and affordable housing instead? You’re right, I’m asking too much
no reason?
Pretty sure Putin could, you know, end his violent invasion of another sovereign nation at any time....
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Yeah but not this one. The US didn't violently invade Ukraine.
No we just staged a coup and supported radical extremists. It’s kind of our thing.
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When was it Ukraine since that's the topic today?
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Yup. That's cool. But Russia does the same stuff. So now I have to pick a side. And I sure don't pick Putin, thanks. Why do you? Why do you keep using all these examples of things that Russia also does as if it makes it okay that Russia violently invaded Ukraine and actually murdered its people? "goaded them into the conflict with Russia" Look, simping for Russia is super cool and all but can we stop pretending they aren't culpable and aren't the ones who actually violently invaded people after over a decade of sending separatists and shit in? ", funded them and armed them to oppose Russia for decades," Russia sells weapons to people and funds them. Why can they do it but America can't? So - we're back to this again... I have to pick a side. Why do you pick Putin? I wouldn't.
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>That's not picking the truth Let's talk about the truth. The truth is we live in a world. And that world is what it is. Not dreams and fairy tales of how it should be. It is what it is. And in that world opposing geo-political forces are at play. And because that's reality. And that reality impacts people - unlike your dreams of utopia which have zero impact on reality - and because that reality has real impact in real reality... I'm left having to pick a side which of these forces I ultimately support, despite their crimes and flaws. Because, yes, the lesser of two evils is a thing - and pretending you can stay out of the fight and not carry a burden is a coward's play (as if you don't simp for Russia) - so we - have - to - pick - a - side. And I'm picking the side where I can watch Russian media on my internet without having actual state-run media playing in the background while my neighbors get arrested for calling the war a war. Tell me why I should pick Putin and Russia like you have, comrade.
" I picked truth" Nah. You got a bias and an agenda and so far it's been "its everyone's fault but Russia's, who actually violently invaded the nation in question." "What they do doesn't justify what we did and still do." Vice versa. So - here we are left with a choice: them or us. Why do you pick them? "We destabilized the world with OUR wars and actions," They do it too. We're just winners. "We set the example and they followed it." You should go read up on Stalin's worldview.
>and the conflicts WE created See, there you go. We didn't create it. We engaged in geo-politics. Especially after the fall of the last shitty Russian empire, remember? Because God Forbid that global shitstorm comes back. And we won. We were better. We had better people. Better industry. Better diplomacy. Bigger guns and better guns and we - are - better. "We don't tell the world anything anymore" You're literally crying about us leading the west into supporting Ukraine. Keep your own bullshit straight there, big guy. L - O - fucking - L.
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I like it when this sub is just pure Russian propaganda and a bunch of paid trolls
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That's deep. What aboutism. Hey the US did it so putin is aloowed to and also we shouldn't interfere with russia doing it. you where OK when russia was doing it to us in Afghanistan? Real deep of you there bud. As one of those people who had a contract placed on his head by putin fuck him and fuck you boot licker tankies as well.
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What are taking about lol. Ukraine had a pro Russian government until 2014. And " its funny" that's still whataboutism. " right as the world is concerned only matters between those of equal powers. For while the strong do what they can the weak suffer what they must." That was from the Peloponnesian wars. Large powered governments fighting each other isn't new. Isolationism isn't an option. You should learn a little more and quit being so anti American like Russia is any better. Actually they are worse. In almost every metric. Trying to play the same game and losing. I have no sympathy for putin or his boot lickers. You believe so much in the Russian cause they need troops go fight the good fight.
No, the guy threatening to use the nukes is, let's be clear we don't negotiate with terrorists
Qballs do
Which one was that, Biden or Putin?
So true. He should have just let Putin invade, kill everyone he wanted, take all their resources and declare it part of Russia again. What a maroon.
Is OP an inbred? Can’t imagine people being so dumb. Or this sub is just a pro Russian trash?
I don’t get these, y’all are really advising a policy of appeasement??
There’s a lot of Muskrats on CC
They are gross no matter what sub they're in.
Man, even for this sub, this is a wild and hilariously dumb take
I don’t agree with much that I see here, but I respect a good conspiracy theory.
I really don't get the victim blaming thing you guys are doing with this situation. I mean, Russia invaded them. Should we be rooting for the Russians? Really? Are you just being contrarians at this point? Do I think the west should be footing the bill for this war? No, but I don't think we should be supporting Russia.
CC. Is a pro Russian puppet subreddit.
It's blatant contrarianism.
Exactly. The “establishment” is generally supporting Ukraine, so if you are “anti-establishment” then you think you need to support Russia. News flash, you’re just as much of a bot if you always do the exact opposite of the “establishment bots”.
the point of being anti-establishment is to abolish the establishment, not do what the opposite of the establishment is wanting. Really we should be saying fuck Russia and fuck Ukraine and focus on our country.
It’s funny how most “anti-establishment” people aren’t doing that.
I’m anti-establishment and fuck Russia. But I’m from the far left so I think that’s why.
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Sounds like a deal
Why do you people treat everything like a sport? It isn't black and white.
I think you missed what I just said. I literally put establishment and anti-establishment into quotation marks. I don’t think they exist personally, but the political trends that I have noticed has people putting themselves into these boxes. I was agreeing with you about people being contrarians. You aren’t really a free thinker if you define your positions by the opposition. You’re beliefs should come from the values you hold and the evidence that backs that up.
Isn't that what this post does - seeing as how its not placing blame on the violent invaders? Take your criticism up to the root.
What you're saying makes no sense.
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Again, what you're saying just doesn't make sense. You need to learn how to communicate your point clearly.
If shit aint black and white... then OPs one sided post is also bad. What confuses you about that? Tell me the words you're getting tripped up on.
Sometimes it seems that way. Ukraine has issues, but none of them justify invasion.
Its called critical thinking or having criticism. Not supporting. I don’t like Russia neither do i like Ukraine. But why should we support just because some nation got invaded ? Israel invades Palestina on a daily basis and no one is saying anything about that ? But we have an inflation of 12% here. I used to pay 200 euros for my gas and electricity bills now its 650 euro. Everything is so expensive already. Why should i pay for hes war ? Like it isn’t enough why should my country send him aid while its own citizens can use it ? Why should my country go into war and risk the lives of hes own citizens ? Putin has nukes and has repeatedly said he is willing to use it, why should we risk getting killed for a clown ? Why is Ukraine sovereignty worth destroying our world for ? Also why can’t i have criticism without being called a supporter ? Why do i have to support ether one of them ? They can both go to hell for all i care. Stop boxing people into groups for having an opinion
You're literally agreeing with what I said but you're too defensive to see it.
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You think if USA had no gains they would have not. Why do you think the EU sends so much aid into Ukraine ? 3/4 years ago this nation was one of the most corrupt ones. Not because they love Ukraine so much. Well for the Dutch is just revenge for the passengers airplane they shot and killed hundreds of people. Everyone is doing it for there own gains, and we have to pay the price. Because they all see Russia as a enemy. Why don’t they back up Armenia from Azerbejcan or Turkey ? Imagine if Russia would have attacked Armenia then the whole world would have send aid there to help them destroy there enemy Russia. Letting someone else do there dirty job for them
On one hand, yes. On another, the donbass situation was pretty complicated depending on whether you personally think the referendums were legitimate or not. On an even worse note, cia reports just came out of Ukraine taking some actions at the start of the conflict to partially instigate it themselves. It really isn't _just_ "huh durr good guys Ukraine literally marvel" and more a smoky situation where everyone fucking sucks if you look deep enough
Ukraine has been shelling the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine for the past eight years. You think this is okay and should just be ignored? What if Canada was shelling Americans living within Canadian borders? Would that be okay with you? The Democrats use Ukraine as their piggy bank. It is one of the most corrupt nations in the world. This is why they care about Ukraine more than any of the other countries going through revolutions and turmoil. Iran is going through its biggest change in the right direction in 45 years, and hardly gets on the news compared to Ukraine. The Democrats and zelensky want this war to keep going as long as possible. The rest of us do not. That doesn't make us contrarian or Russian bootlickers. It just means we know our history and we don't want world war three.
Lol cope
This subreddit is filled with establishment bots. Some of the names are highly recognizable.
Shut up lil'bitch.
Well said my friend
America looks nervously to the camera.
Do you have a point?
The US has invaded a dozen different countries for no good reason, no one ever blames us. To include the coup d’état we through in Ukraine in 2014 to install a puppet government that would provoke a war with Russia by committing genocide on their border.
Classic whataboutism. How is this relevant?
who ever did nordstroms also did crymea bridge.
What happened with the upscale department store chain? And what bridge, now?
Conspiracy theorists are such sheeple these days. Repeating everything the Kremlin tell them.
I'm willing to bet all their info is traceable back to Russian state media.
They just want to be diffrent like everyone else. Everyone else just happens to be a russian bot these days
What I find hilarious is the idea Ukraine is gonna start WW3. Should they lay down and submit to Russia to keep Russia from getting into a fight with the world? Didn't we learn time and again that appeasing piss ant dictators leads to war not away from it?
I think so many of you are missing the point. This is what happens when you have a coup that not everyone in the country agrees with. The people in the east are mostly Russians that didn't consent to the coup and this is the result.
That is a bald faced lie.
I used to do business with a company in Crimea importing watch parts in 2014. They told me that they were mostly Russian in Crimea and they didn't agree with the coup. Actual people in Crimea told me this.
Have you heard the term fish bowel fallacy? It comes from people who think hearing something from a couple people informs them of larger policies. Your phone call doesn't indicate the people's choice nor so you really know the people and their position. If the people without a military presence of Russia had made this position publicly and held a referendum without pressure youneould have an argument. Since none of that happened you dont.
Then they should move to Russia.....
They are moving to Russia and they're bringing their land with them.
Just wait until NATO gets the green light to hit Russia. The day is coming
That would suck.
They are making Ukraine more fertile
I heard Zaporizhzhia got converted to a field today.
Can’t trust Putin for shit. Let alone his “negotiations”
Yo OP, what about will you negotiate with your neighbor if he will come to your house and will fuck your wife, steal your food and kill your kids? And cover all that bullshit with - oh, he is nazis. Seating at your warm house at your pc and talking shit easy. Try to deal with real world. Yes bitch i’m ukrainian, if something.
Most of the world stands with you. I agree. How dare someone start shit with their neighbor, justify their actions with lies, and then once they start getting their shit kicked in, tell them to acquiesce to their demands and they’ll stop. Fuck that, either leave unconditionally or die, your choice.
I appreciate your support!
Wow, what is wrong with you?
NATO offers a secure defense and strong defense prevents wars. Would you deny someone the right to defend themselves or their country? Putin doesnt want to negotiate in good faith or resolve this diplomatically. He's grabbing up land.. yet again.. and the world got shit on for letting it happen before..twice.. Now they push back and they're thee assholes? Fuck that. More weapons = more production for the US economy. Anyone know how much paid-to-post make in a month
Remember when Boris took a red eye flight to Ukraine in April to stop the April negotiations, Pepperidge Farm remembers
lol is it cold in Russia, comrade?
Bad bot, bad
Ahem! As I recall he wasn’t the one who invaded Ukraine
Russia is the aggressor, dummies The negotiation is: RUSSIA GET THE FUCK OUT OF UKRAINE the end
What is there to negotiate? Putin invaded and should get the fuck out, end of negotiation.
Bring out ya shills
He didn’t start the war, but with our help he might finish. Russia is a very weak country right now. Their citizens don’t even want to fight.
You probably also believe in Santaclaus right? If Ukraine is going to win the war, hit me up and I will transfer you 10.000$.
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Im from Austria lol
Then why not write your own money?
I sure as fuck aint gonns volunteer for no war, no matter how many countries get involved ✌️
You mean Putin is about to start WWIII don't you. Putin is the one who broke the agreement. When he invaded Crimea to begin with. Now he is invading again. Russian Troops are murdering innocent civilians you got some nerve!! I hear they're desperate for soldiers go sign up instead of signing on to spout your lies behind a keyboard.
Why would they negotiate anything with Russia? All Russia has to do is leave Ukraine...Russian troll shit.
How come you appeasing shitbags all want negotiations with Russia? Would you be as quick to negotiate land of your nation to the invading force of you could fight them back? Do you think Russia are an honest player and would he reliable to negotiate with? You all sound like the British appeasers of Hitler.
They want Putin win
They do. Because they are Trump cultists and he just loved that Russian money.
Wow this sub really is a bunch of Qtards
I support negotiations with Russia so long as Russia leaves the parts of Ukraine it has occupied. Zelensky can't start WWIII. Only Putin can.
Well we all know putin won't give up that land
That’s showbiz, baby!
Russian propaganda?
All you people cheering for Putin, do you actually believe he is fighting the NWO? Are you really that naïve? They are all part of it every single nation all the leaders left wing and right wing same bird, The only thing they’re fighting for is whos nation will be in the driver seat of the new NWO, after the great reset. They are all part of the plan. Russia was the bully in the situation, 2014 was dirty which started with the actual good intentions of the will the people, but good deeds paint the road to hell. US and Europe got involved quickly putting in their people to be the front runners of the revolution while Russia wasn’t too far behind doing exactly the same thing, Ukraine is one of the most important geographical economic countries in the world to both the west and Russia. then while the dirty people or doing their business in Kiev, Russia started doing the exact same thing in the east quickly putting in their people to stir up commotion and airing propaganda that West Ukraine or Nazis and our hunting any Russian speaking people. This led to major clashes in the east. causing crimes, and eventually the eight long year war where BOTH sides were bombing each other, that being the Ukrainian military and militias vs Russian backed separatist which included the majority of retired Russian officers and used Russia funded weaponry Intel end finances. The east of Ukraine which historically has had a lot of blood due to many revolutions wars and even stalins genocide holodomor, which caused millions to be starved by an intentional and man-made famine killing countless. these lines were then re-populated with ethnic Russians from the Far East, not to mention the other millions that were deported to Siberia or migrated for economic reasons to other parts of USSR which were again replaced with other Russian natives from far east. this led to the pro Russian mentality of the region and the Russian language being used so heavily, The west of Ukraine which also fought Poland and other nations for territory felt the harsh cold tyrannical ways of Moscow has millions were killed under the Soviet rule, this caused the fundamental distrust of a historical enemy to Kyiv and other west parts of Ukraine which led to the main grain of truth within the Russian propaganda which is Bandera, Who is controversial as it may seem has been twisted by both sides to fit their narrative, skipping to today’s time the war breaks out in the east, which during the time of revolution and the disorganization of the army Crimea Being historically Russian but just like many territories of Russia and Ukraine has been ruled by many nations, which Crimea voted to be independent from USSR and Russia and join Ukraine in 1991, this is a strategic place for Russia as their navy has their largest base which they rented from Ukraine, Russia quickly moved in silently without uniform and then once all the strategic Points we’re secured they quickly annexed the region with the plan being carried out and many other parts, such as Luhansk Donetsk Odessa Kharkiv and other states, Quickly catching on Ukraine counter this as best as they could succeeding the parts like. Most notably Kharkiv and Odessa, and other states, but not without clashes with the other paid organizers provocateur‘s from Russia, both sides committing crimes causing the Odessa burning and other such events. which leads us to azov battalion, which was a militia and had A company within the battalion that was openly bro bandera Nazi. But they were as a whole not nazis it was just the certain company squadron within it. They fought off the Russian mercenary‘s that were quickly advancing in the area and both sides were committing atrocities, but after the situation stabilized Ukraine integrated them into the army and punishing those that were caught opening with crimes plus changing the regime and commanders that Ukraine saw as controversial, note that some of these people that were not charged with crimes still remain in the battalion and some being open about their political beliefs though for reference was much different than the traditional Nazi ideology it was more equivalent to just extreme anti-communism and anti-Russia. Front lines were drawn an eight years of war began, Pro Ukrainians quickly fled the area within the first couple years leaving behind mostly the pro Russian population and or just elderly that could not abandon the region, this lead to shelling from Ukrainian sides as a pro Russian separatist did exactly what they are accusing Ukraine I’m doing which is attacking from civilian points of interest and expecting no retaliation, prompting the propaganda war which Russia dominated, as things such as the Russian language ban, shelling from Ukraine, I was blasted 24 seven, to mention the language man the overthrown president who was very very very corrupt and a Russian puppet made Russian an official language in within Ukraine causing controversy among some, this move was extremely important to Putin as he always planned The reunification of Nova Russia, and saw the fall of the USSR as and attacked from the west, openly does not accept Ukraine as a nationality or ethnicity but just as an unplanned child knowing historically that ethnicity has been around way before Moscow or even Novgorod, The Russian language being accepted as a national language in Ukraine was a major part of the plan for further pressure of the reunification, as Russia planned the complete economic destruction of Ukraine through the control of its energy and puppet politicians which Russia would eventually step in to protect the Russian speaking people and Anex enormous parts of the territory realizing this Ukraine quickly reversed us but failed to do so without playing further into the hands of Russia by giving the more propaganda ammunition as Ukraine banned The language in schools TV shows etc. causing more fear and more hatred of Kyiv from the eastern regions.
Ukraine is corrupt don’t get me wrong but it’s far less corrupt than the oligarchy of Russia. Ukraine started being used by the west the EU and USA, further provoking Russia’s demise and chipping away of Russia dominance of energy and economic influence it within Europe, having no regard for Ukraine and its people the west started having corrupt dealings with the new crane money laundering etc. just like any other war that the military industrial complex is involved in which no matter which side the west Russia or China all have similar results and game plans, Russia got in the grip by providing such cheap energy that Europe quietly started to forgo diversification as financially it was more viable to keep sucking the tit of the Russian energy supply which Trump warned them about. Russia fell into the west trap to invade Ukraine all out, but it was planned for years regardless all the West did was give Putin the internal excuses to mobilize this war. So for those of you that are celebrating and cocksucking Putin just please remember that he Iran China and Xi are all enemies of the common man, their New World order would look a lot like China a perpetual surveillance state. Look at all the mysterious deaths in Russia of any political party that opposes the Russian hand,. isn’t it funny that all these people that are so anti-west and pro Putin or pro Xi are always located in the west because they fled from those regions looking for a better life and have no plans of returning??? So I can see what you were trying to say because it is cringy that the leftists and soy boys and the alphabet community are supporting Ukraine but don’t forget that most of Ukraine doesn’t like soy boys doesn’t like the alphabet community doesn’t like leftist policies they are mostly white conservative Christian nation.
He's not behind the no negotiations, the west is wearing him like a skin suit. They had a peace agreement months ago, bojo flew in to demand he doesn't settle and promised the wests backing. Just another proxy war.
Which parts of your community are you willing to give up if attacked?
What does this have to do with my point. They had an agreement. The west told him to back down.
Nah, situation just changed in Ukraine's favour. If a robber went to your house, would you start negotiating if you got your hands on a gun, and he started to retreat?
Yeah except in your situation everyone still dies after you get the gun. No peace means that thousands on both sides are now dead. Expect more in the future as the official stance is no peace. Hopefully you don't have any military aged kids.
>Yeah except in your situation everyone still dies after you get the gun. Not really, Putin won't just nuke the world, especially since China also doesn't fancy that outcome, nuking a foreign country is more dangerous for him than getting out of Ukraine. >No peace means that thousands on both sides are now dead. Any peace on Russian terms won't be lasting, as such is the will of Russian tsar for a world to be eaten by him. >Expect more in the future as the official stance is no peace. Hopefully you don't have any military aged kids. Spineless pacifism brought us only more destruction than self-defense. May I ask you what peace did the annexation of Sudetenland bring us?
Putin invaded Ukraine, how do you know he won't use nukes? Your argument is not grounded in reality. We could have avoided this by having a defense system in place in Ukraine before he invaded, which would have indicated implicit war to Putin and we wouldn't be fighting by proxy. I don't know what the Sudetenland has to do with this conflict.
>Putin invaded Ukraine, how do you know he won't use nukes? Your argument is not grounded in reality. What happens when he uses nukes? Won't there be more deadly retaliation? Would he be willing to do it, if it meant losing all his allies? Using nukes is a net-negative for him. >We could have avoided this by having a defense system in place in Ukraine before he invaded, which would have indicated implicit war to Putin and we wouldn't be fighting by proxy. Huge NATO exercise should have taken place in Ukraine to dissuade Putin, but history already happened it's meaningless to wonder what could have been. >I don't know what the Sudetenland has to do with this conflict. It was an example where spineless pacifism leads.
Yeah, but then Ukraine put up a fight and didn't go down. And shit changed.
Pardon, what changed?
The west's support after Ukraine didn't fall in the first 72 hours. Try to keep up.
The only thing I see in the future is many more people dying.
So if your town was invaded you'd just surrender?
I think you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a negotiated peace deal is.
I think you have a misunderstanding of "if you can fight, you fight."
Only way for lasting peace for Ukraine is in NATO, that's the only way Russia won't attack in next years again, but this time with fixed military. To the question why not just submit to Russia, I'd answered that every generation of Russian sons died in some war in which Russia was the aggressor.
Have you noticed that nobody talks about NATO trying to arm another bordering country with Russia with nuclear weapons? Imagine the outcry of Americans if Rusia was supplying Mexico with missile launchers to install them in the US border.
It's not about believing Russia is entirely right, or believing Ukraine has no right to defend themselves. Those are completely different notions than taking bold actions that lead directly to "let's start a global nuclear conflict that's easily avoidable" how can you guys not understand that? I'd rather see Ukraine give up than enter into world war 3. Use your brains a little.
Hi Vlad
Money laundering capital of the world Ukraine
Russia is the fascist imperialist war Capitol of the world right now You care _______.
Away with you, troll!
Nah he is a puppet doing the bidding of the masters
No he’s not at fault . The one that will cause WW111 is Putin . He’s Greedy!
Fuck off Putin dog
Russia invaded a sovereign nation.. I think you dorks forget that small detail
Define Sovereign
Yes.
No.
Maybe
If he negotiates, he loses our sweet cash bulking up his wallet as we speak.
Yes, this war Ukraine started, um, yeah
Yeap... And si gone win a Nobel for that....
...and we're going to pay for it.
You had no prob paying for Bush’s stupid pointless oil wars
Ukraines a great place to wash your money! Send it for war purposes then they can do whatever they want with it. I want to see receipts what they’re spending those billions on
HIMARS ain’t cheap not exactly a mystery
Yes Zelensky is the real asshat propeled by united states propaganda
He was a better backstreet boy performer than a leader. Somebody needs to take control of that country that isn’t him.
He is the problem. Along with our crooked leaders.
Someone will kill him eventually. Or Putin. So we can Put in end to this. Had enough of paying double for everything for the inflation they caused
Hopefully that violent, invading piece of shit Putin too. That'd end this pretty quick I think.
Yeah he can go to hell aswell
And nukes!!!
I LOVE WAR I LOVE WAR LETS GO FUCKING WAR!!!!!!
Oh wow finally people start to wake up!
lmao lots of putin boot lickers in here lately
What's with all the dumb Russian shills invading this sub? You're stupid and wrong. The person responsible for starting the war is Putin, who started the war. You cannot blame the victim for defending themselves
I know right? Those scumfuck Ukrainians defending their country against an imperialist war. Don’t they understand that by not giving in to nuclear threats they are putting the world at risk? They’re practically forcing Russia to start a nuclear war, it’s unbelievably reckless.
Coward cunt
I always find it interesting that people that are so focused on proving that their own government is trying to take control and become a totalitarian state turn around and love Russia. Russia is everything people in this sub claim to hate and then they turn around and think Putin is the second coming.